I'll try to pretty this up if I get a chance, but the Mantic terrain Kickstarter just went live. Maybe someone not a phone can help make this thread look a little less crummy!
With this Kickstarter, you'll get fantasy terrain that's:
Affordable! - save up to 50% on the RRP, plus additional free stretch goals
Plastic! - this will be hard-wearing plastic, rather than potentially fragile (and often expensive) resin
Multi-purpose! - combine different sets to create entirely new themes and rooms
Pre-built! - all the scenery pieces are ready straight from the box
Multi-use! - we've created TerrainCrate to be used with a range of games, RPGs and existing terrain ranges
When launched in 2018, each of the sets - such as the Wizard's Study or the Campsite - will retail at $29.99/£19.99, so the Kickstarter is a great saving on the retail price.
SHIPPING
Shipping is NOT included in your pledge and will be calculated once the campaign has completed. You will be charged during the Pledge Manager for shipping.
However, if you wish to add the funds to shipping for your pledge now, in preparation for the Pledge Manager, we currently estimate that the shipping costs for the pledges will be approximately:
Single TerrainCrate - UK $6, Europe $8, North America $8 and Rest of World $15
Two TerrainCrates bundle - UK $10, Europe $15, North America $15 and Rest of World $15
Three TerrainCrate bundle - UK $12, Europe $18, North America $18 and Rest of World $30
All add-ons outside the core pledges will have their shipping calculated and charged in the Pledge Manager after the campaign has finished.
Jumped in on the 3-pack early bird. For ~$1 a piece at the start, that's pretty good value. I only assume we'll get more added to drop that price down.
Ian Sturrock wrote: How reliable are Mantic when it comes to KS delivery times? I've not backed anything from them before.
The less stuff in it, the better. Usually very good about wave 1 deliveries, later waves slip.
However, this is all pretty simple hard plastic terrain like the Dungeon Saga, Mars Attacks, and The Walking Dead style terrain, which they have lots of experience producing now. I would imagine this would ship pretty on-time.
No printed materials or boxed sets to assemble, things to wait on from various printers, playtesting, etc.
I wanted to be excited about this (particularly as I do dungeon crawls and Mordheim etc.) but the Dungeon Saga KS that I received was one of the most underwhelming, disappointing things I've ever received in the post.
I sold it the next day. The quality was so stunningly mediocre. I'm trying to remember how good/bad the terrain was, but on the whole it wiped Mantic off my shopping list for the foreseeable future. I hope the prices get so low that it's worth what you get, but I don't think I'll be risking it on this one.
Those look much, much better than I was expecting them to, but I do wish the pledges were a little more granular - I can use almost everything in each style once, but buying multiples to get the book cases & walls I really want loads of would leave me with tons of useless duplicates.
Ian Sturrock wrote: How reliable are Mantic when it comes to KS delivery times? I've not backed anything from them before.
The less stuff in it, the better. Usually very good about wave 1 deliveries, later waves slip.
However, this is all pretty simple hard plastic terrain like the Dungeon Saga, Mars Attacks, and The Walking Dead style terrain, which they have lots of experience producing now. I would imagine this would ship pretty on-time.
No printed materials or boxed sets to assemble, things to wait on from various printers, playtesting, etc.
It also helps a lot if the KS has few components.
As I understand the campaign, there'll be these three boxes and that's it. Stretch-goals will add things to the boxes, there won't be a lot of add-ons and stretchgoals are mainly more stuff that's already contained in (other) boxes.
Most significant delays to KS's seem to happen when the creators start adding too many and too complicated stretchgoals, like entire new kits. The Mantic KoW kickstarters had some stuff get very delayed iirc, but the recent Walking dead KS seems to have gone out more or less on time and that one followed the approach of few levels and not many add-ons.
I was underwhelmed by Dungeon Saga as well (mostly in that it wanted to be a 2 player tactical game rather than an actual dungeon crawl), but the terrain was great in my opinion. Hardest bit of it for me to part with.
I though it was on par with the terrain from Mars Attacks, which was also pretty solid scatter terrain.
Also, more stretch goals incoming-
Certainly can't complain about them keeping the gaps nice and close for now either!
I think the crates look good. I'm gonna have to wait for retail though, already blew too much money this month on way too much paint and SWA. Maybe I can sneak in a pledge toward the end though, I like the dungeon debris set.. would be good for western scatter terrain and obstacles
Not exactly cheap in my opinion.
However if I get all 3 sets, I'll have buckets of stuff I can throw on a variety of boards... Frostgrave, Bolt Action, Saga, KoW and Tombstone.
Happy.
Will be happier if more stuff gets added and it delivers on time!
Yodhrin wrote: Those look much, much better than I was expecting them to, but I do wish the pledges were a little more granular - I can use almost everything in each style once, but buying multiples to get the book cases & walls I really want loads of would leave me with tons of useless duplicates.
Sets (eg. Wizard's Study) will be added as add-ons, and they're mentioning doors as an add-on, which suggests the previously released Dungeon Saga furniture and doors sets will be available, although Miniature Market is cheaper (if they get it back in stock!).
While Dungeon Saga was poorly fulfilled, Walking Dead worked out fine, afaik. I'm hearing good things about the Dungeon Saga furniture, although I'm not expecting hard plastic sprues here.
I'm currently in this one but I'm just looking over Conan, Twisting Catacombs, Bones.. and just all this other terrain .. that's basically the same stuff in these.. good deal or not.. I just don't need duplicates of 80-90% of this :/
Breaking it out by rooms for add-ons would help me to stay in this... and I fully am glad people who don't have this stuff are able to scoop it up for a reasonable price.
overtyrant wrote: I think they went for the wrong genre for this one. I feel they should've gone with sci-fi stuff with the apparent success of SWA.
I agree. I can't imagine the terrain add-on for their upcoming board game (...name escapes me) wasn't the best selling add-on for that campaign..
However.. I think they maybe are looking at the fact that as a company.. their footprint is kinda lopsided. They have scads of sci-fi terrain and very little fantasy terrain to speak of. While I would've preferred Warpath flavored scatter terrain, obj, etc.. I think for them as a company and the overall health and diversity of their catalog.. it just made sense to hit fantasy first. Knowing Mantic...sci-fi cannot be that far off.
What am I missing here? The battlefield set, you can get most of that already from renedra for about half that price. It looks really expensive to me. Or you could buy the GW laketown bundle for that price, far better value to my mind.
The furniture was certainly the best part of the DS kickstarter. Some of the plastics was a bit sticky in mine though, so didn't take paint brilliantly (Primarily the tabes, bookshelves and well), but once they do, they look fantastic.
I'm just about to build my first gaming table, so this couldn't have come at a better time
Huginn wrote: What am I missing here? The battlefield set, you can get most of that already from renedra for about half that price. It looks really expensive to me. Or you could buy the GW laketown bundle for that price, far better value to my mind.
Could you put together some sample $180 packages from Rendra towards the end of the Mantic campaign? I think the only thing your'e missing is marketing.
Is this the Laketown bundle you're talking about? I don't see Mantic offering lakeside buildings, so don't get the comparison. I assume backers are interested in this Mantic terrain for dungeon adventuring, or land battles, not seaside towns. : https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Lake-Town-House-Bundle
Yodhrin wrote: Those look much, much better than I was expecting them to, but I do wish the pledges were a little more granular - I can use almost everything in each style once, but buying multiples to get the book cases & walls I really want loads of would leave me with tons of useless duplicates.
Sets (eg. Wizard's Study) will be added as add-ons, and they're mentioning doors as an add-on, which suggests the previously released Dungeon Saga furniture and doors sets will be available, although Miniature Market is cheaper (if they get it back in stock!).
While Dungeon Saga was poorly fulfilled, Walking Dead worked out fine, afaik. I'm hearing good things about the Dungeon Saga furniture, although I'm not expecting hard plastic sprues here.
Woop woop, that's me in then - my Great Library of Mordheim ruin project might finally have reached the right intersection of price-to-effort(Zealot's amazing resin dungeon terrain is too pricey, and have you ever tried making hundreds of bookshelves by hand? Don't. Ever.).
As for fantasy vs sci-fi - eh, different markets entirely IMO. These are pitched at people who're playing RPGs and dungeon crawler games, most people playing games like SWA want terrain for gameplay reasons and that means, primarily, LoS-blocking cover. Sure they'd sell plenty to a few of us suckers who insist on "storytelling" via our terrain so even a barricade ends up with some wee setting-appropriate tweak, but your average tabletop wargamer wants a kit to put together and use as a functional object, not hundreds of wee nick-nacks.
Aye there's a market for it, but the fantasy dungeon crowd will be much bigger.
Hot damn, they're blowing thru stretch goals. Loving the new pieces.
RE Renedra - I have lots of Renedra barrels, fencing, etc. Maybe one at least of everything they offer (and just bought 4 mud brick houses to boot). And they certainly don't offer most of what Mantic has in these kits...
I'm in for one crate for now. I'm really hoping that when this hits the mid-campaign lull, they bust out a modern set. A diner themed one with booths, countertop, and kitchen. A grocery store themed one with checkout stand, shelves, shopping cats. Maybe a park themed set with playground stuff. Could be really cool.
Barzam wrote: I'm in for one crate for now. I'm really hoping that when this hits the mid-campaign lull, they bust out a modern set. A diner themed one with booths, countertop, and kitchen. A grocery store themed one with checkout stand, shelves, shopping cats. Maybe a park themed set with playground stuff. Could be really cool.
I'd be all over some street furniture - lamp posts, mail boxes, cars, dumpsters
And sci fi space ship interiors - crates (never enough crates), computers, machines, debries
Perfect Organism wrote: What kind of plastic are these made out of? Presumably not HIPS from the look of them.
legione about 3 hours ago
@C in my understanding the plastic is the same of the one used for the existing dungeon saga forniture. (Which looks like a very hard rubber.) It's not the same plastic used for plastic sprues nor resin.
I'll post if I can find an official word. Or write to the creator on the KS page and ask!
The plastic is not the same as Dungeon Saga which is a bit rubbery to the touch it's apparently the same stuff as TWD scenery. This plastic is firmer although it will flex a bit. I have both no issue with either but TWD stuff is better it holds detail well and isn't too far off HIPs in firmness.
At one point, my good lady and I were looking at getting six Crates....
This is what happens when two enablers marry.
We have now talked ourselves back down to a more reasonable three, plus an extra Library or two.... (She wants to make a permanent build of a library. I do not know what she has planned, but I look forward to finding out.)
The Auld Grump - the Bones III Kickstarter ended up costing us $900, when you put both of our pledges together... now we have a little one, so we are trying to be more cautious....
Just think of all the little fireplaces and barrels your little one can have to play with though...
I think I'm gonna have to switch to the 3 set pledge and get 1 of each, there's enough in everything that I'll want everything even though I know I won't use everything.
They lost me at "kickstarter" :( Rehash of primarily existing terrain should not take a year (realistically it will probably be July/August per past experience) to manufacture and get these out.....
Ehldar wrote: They lost me at "kickstarter" :( Rehash of primarily existing terrain should not take a year (realistically it will probably be July/August per past experience) to manufacture and get these out.....
Primarily existing terrain? Do post links, will buy now!
Ehldar wrote: They lost me at "kickstarter" :( Rehash of primarily existing terrain should not take a year (realistically it will probably be July/August per past experience) to manufacture and get these out.....
Are you referring to the Mantic Dungeon Saga Furniture and Doors sets? They're good for anyone who doesn't already have individual chests, barrels, and doors. The Mantic Terrain Crate does *not* overlap with these sets and these are new sculpts.
DM: You enter a room to find the sword in the stone! But, wait. You see *two* swords stuck in their stones!
Player: But the legend said there was only one sword in the stone!
DM: MuahHaHaHaHaaaaaaa!
DM: You enter a room to find the sword in the stone! But, wait. You see *two* swords stuck in their stones!
Player 1: Wait. Does that mean two swords stuck in a stone?
Player 2: No, he means two swords, each stuck in each other's stone.
Player 3: Are you sure about that? And why would a sword own a stone?
DM: *dumps entire Dungeon Debris set on player miniatures*
Not to rant, but this kind of thing bothers me and smacks of no intelligible thought. Add a unique item to the bundle like a sword in stone? Sure. Add two? Uh, why? If I want two, I can buy two. It's like doing something cool like a blacksmith's anvil. Then adding a second one for no reason. Keep those kinds of pieces at 1x and add another of the more common items, like a straight mine cart rail or another beer keg. Maybe it's just me, but I don't like the "here's a bunch of stuff" approach. I'd rather see some thought put into the component count. On the other hand, the "bunch of stuff" better fits Mantic's company philosophy, often mentioned here: "Mantic...almost."
Not to rant, but this kind of thing bothers me and smacks of no intelligible thought. Add a unique item to the bundle like a sword in stone? Sure. Add two? Uh, why? If I want two, I can buy two. It's like doing something cool like a blacksmith's anvil. Then adding a second one for no reason. Keep those kinds of pieces at 1x and add another of the more common items, like a straight mine cart rail or another beer keg. Maybe it's just me, but I don't like the "here's a bunch of stuff" approach. I'd rather see some thought put into the component count. On the other hand, the "bunch of stuff" better fits Mantic's company philosophy, often mentioned here: "Mantic...almost."
Have a look at the treasure room set it's 2 of everything 1 tool cast twice. They are adding a single sword in stone to that tool but you are getting 2 copies of the tool so 2 swords in stone if they give 1 they have 1 spare anyway so it costs nothing to add a second. This is not a case of Mantic almost sure there are plenty of examples but not here.
The DS dungeon furniture was a mixed bag for me. The doors are styrene (hard plastic) and are brilliant.
The rest of the furniture was softer plastic and the detail was soft. It took ages to stop feeling sticky to the touch, even after repeated washing and degreasing. Worse, the stickiness came back months after painting and varnishing.
I revarnished it and left it out in the air - seems to be fine for the moment. But a KS full of the stuff? An easy pass for me.
Momotaro wrote: The DS dungeon furniture was a mixed bag for me. The doors are styrene (hard plastic) and are brilliant.
The rest of the furniture was softer plastic and the detail was soft. It took ages to stop feeling sticky to the touch, even after repeated washing and degreasing. Worse, the stickiness came back months after painting and varnishing.
I revarnished it and left it out in the air - seems to be fine for the moment. But a KS full of the stuff? An easy pass for me.
It's a worry I've had.
I bought the DS furniture for Frostgrave games. I wash and scrub everything I paint with a toothbrush and soap and rinse well. Plastic, metal, resin... everything.
I undercoated the chests, painted them, varnished them, then matt varnished them as usual. They usually sit drying for a few more days on the paint table till I find a place to store them.
A month later, I took them out of the sponge case they were living in for a game, to find them all shiny and sticky.
I've asked a few times about the material for these crates and get replies that it's the same as the walking dead terrain. I have that as well, it's grey instead of brown, but there's still some of the rubbery flex in the barricades that the DS furniture had. The cars seem closer to hard plastic but I'm worried about the barricades and what these new crates will be made of.
I do a bunch of scale modelling and there you often find that the properties of the plastic is effected by the colour even though it is basically the same thing.
The plastic in Tamiya kit of a German Africa Korps tank (brown) will be harder and more brittle than the plastic of an American Sheman (Green), the HIPS they are made of are identical and it's only the colour that's different
so the plastic here could well be the same but behaving differently as they've put a different colourant in
Ehldar wrote: They lost me at "kickstarter" :( Rehash of primarily existing terrain should not take a year (realistically it will probably be July/August per past experience) to manufacture and get these out.....
Primarily existing terrain? Do post links, will buy now!
Pretty sure that he wrote without bothering to look at them at all. So he was just making it up out of thin air..
IIRC, Mantic will be using plastic similar to The Walking Dead, instead of Dungeon Saga. fwiw, Furniture reviews I've read were mixed, but paint jobs looked good.
DaveC wrote: Have a look at the treasure room set it's 2 of everything 1 tool cast twice. They are adding a single sword in stone to that tool but you are getting 2 copies of the tool so 2 swords in stone if they give 1 they have 1 spare anyway so it costs nothing to add a second. This is not a case of Mantic almost sure there are plenty of examples but not here.
Because I have a spare envelope and napkin...
We have twelve sets, but two of them, the Dungeon Debris, and Library, share pieces with other sets. So that's ten tools so far. Once they fill up a set, that means they've "filled up" the tool. (I'm sure Mantic knows these first tools will have their SG pieces met and the tools have already been planned out.) So, if they complete the sets at, frex, 300K, we're looking at us being charged 30K per tool. Anyone know how much a tool costs? I've heard a mold for a miniature costs 5K to 15K, but that doesn't necessarily means a tool costs that amount.
The Auld Grump - the Bones III Kickstarter ended up costing us $900, when you put both of our pledges together... now we have a little one, so we are trying to be more cautious....
It ain't the money, at least it wasn't for me...
"I am baby, destroyer of free time, look upon my vestige and know fear!"
Not to rant, but this kind of thing bothers me and smacks of no intelligible thought. Add a unique item to the bundle like a sword in stone? Sure. Add two? Uh, why? If I want two, I can buy two. It's like doing something cool like a blacksmith's anvil. Then adding a second one for no reason. Keep those kinds of pieces at 1x and add another of the more common items, like a straight mine cart rail or another beer keg. Maybe it's just me, but I don't like the "here's a bunch of stuff" approach. I'd rather see some thought put into the component count. On the other hand, the "bunch of stuff" better fits Mantic's company philosophy, often mentioned here: "Mantic...almost."
Probably they're adding it to the sprue and throwing in 2 sprues.
Which would mean the stretch goals are really just filling in empty space on the sprue and not really added expenses (save for sculpting).
The Auld Grump - the Bones III Kickstarter ended up costing us $900, when you put both of our pledges together... now we have a little one, so we are trying to be more cautious....
It ain't the money, at least it wasn't for me...
Spoiler:
"I am baby, destroyer of free time, look upon my vestige and know fear!"
Spoilered as off topic -
Spoiler:
1,000 times that!
Just a few weeks ago she started crawling, now she is trying to stand, and mostly failing. (We were there when she switched from a backwards skootch on her butt to a crawl - as some switch in her brain went *Click!* as she realized that there was a better way.)
And I am pretty sure that Khatt (one of our cats) is teaching her how to stalk - she crawls towards him, he waits until she is almost there, then moves to a new location - but the new location is always in her sight, so she continues crawling after him. If he were really trying to get away, he would get out of the room, or go someplace she could not reach.
But she already has several full sets of (fuzzy) polyhedral dice.... (Megan first started playing fantasy games when she was about six - her mum had an old set of HeroQuest. For Mother's Day a few years ago, we gave her mum a cleaned and painted copy of the game - Brigid is going to be a third generation fantasy gamer, if we have any say in the matter. )
With utter predictability, as I start getting ready for restarting our Curse of the Crimson Throne Pathfinder game, I keep looking at the sets in this Kickstarter, and picturing how they could be used.... They may call those piles of junk ;dungeon debris' but I see barricades.... Quite suitable for the early days in the campaign.... (Riots and barricades, they go together like piles of tires and open flames....)
ced1106 wrote: IIRC, Mantic will be using plastic similar to The Walking Dead, instead of Dungeon Saga. fwiw, Furniture reviews I've read were mixed, but paint jobs looked good.
Actually, that's good to hear. Happy to pick these up at a future date, funds are tight at the moment.
The DS furniture was good - I'd have been perfectly happy with it if it wasn't for the shiny stickiness.
Not to rant, but this kind of thing bothers me and smacks of no intelligible thought. Add a unique item to the bundle like a sword in stone? Sure. Add two? Uh, why? If I want two, I can buy two. It's like doing something cool like a blacksmith's anvil. Then adding a second one for no reason. Keep those kinds of pieces at 1x and add another of the more common items, like a straight mine cart rail or another beer keg. Maybe it's just me, but I don't like the "here's a bunch of stuff" approach. I'd rather see some thought put into the component count. On the other hand, the "bunch of stuff" better fits Mantic's company philosophy, often mentioned here: "Mantic...almost."
Fugazi wrote: Yeah, but I was hoping for a more common sense approach to the quantity of some of the items.
Think your missing the point a bit.
There's 2 swords because there's one on each sprue and your getting two sprues for each set, hence why everything else is doubled or will be through a stretch goal at some point.
Also.. try using imagination a bit.. What about painting one of them up like a nice shiny Excalibur type sword and painting the other either rusted up or somehow trapped.. or maybe glowing like it's been activated.. or black and purple like it's been cursed.
It's situational terrain and having duplicates of any of it is never bad... okay.. usually not.
Worst case scenario you just use one for gaming and the other for a diorama.
Yeah, I'm certainly willing to be critical of aspects of Mantic's kickstarters (or anyone else's), but this complaint is like you're really searching for a justification to be upset (and failing ridiculously.)
I'm massively offended by the presence of a second Sword in the Stone, because I've never owned a wargaming product where I've not used every component of every sprue.
I also like to hoard all my miniatures, so there's no way I would consider just giving away a spare tiny piece of scatter terrain, even if I had no use for it.
Ian Sturrock wrote: I'm massively offended by the presence of a second Sword in the Stone, because I've never owned a wargaming product where I've not used every component of every sprue.
I also like to hoard all my miniatures, so there's no way I would consider just giving away a spare tiny piece of scatter terrain, even if I had no use for it.
I know!
I considered cutting it so I could have both a stone and a broken sword to glue to bases but I despise converting.
Besides, a sword in the stone is so passe. A stone in a sword, now you're talking. Or a stone sword. Or a stoned sword that talks, but only says, "Heyyyyy.... mannnnn". That would be something.
And now... because someone else demanded it... it's KSE and you can get multiples for the secondary market... A BOX. Made of cardboard and stuff. Like air.
(BTW, Boxes are sometimes the most expensive components for boardgames. Most boardgame companies use standard box sizes, so that's why so many games have extra space in the box.)
Also, the Dungeon Saga doors and furniture sets, although you can get them from Miniature Market at a lower price, when they get restocked.
Oh, and more than 2x miniatures coming up, because they don't need to make more molds for them.
For the rats and skulls, we're getting 2x rats and 2x skulls, just like the good ol' days of HeroQuest.
Finally, it is of course May the 4th... aka Star Wars Day. Shame we're only doing fantasy scenery for this campaign, otherwise we could have celebrated our favourite film franchise. Unless...
New Sci-fi would be great Star Saga/ DZ repackages not so much have loads of them. Sci-Fi walls or even more chain link fence which works for modem too would be great the chain link fence in Mars Attacks is to expensive in any great quantity.
Finally, it is of course May the 4th... aka Star Wars Day. Shame we're only doing fantasy scenery for this campaign, otherwise we could have celebrated our favourite film franchise. Unless...
New Sci-fi would be great Star Saga/ DZ repackages not so much have loads of them. Sci-Fi walls or even more chain link fence which works for modem too would be great the chain link fence in Mars Attacks is to expensive in any great quantity.
I wouldn't expect new sci-fi sets, most likely just flogging the Star Saga stuff.
I'd like a sci fi crate, but glad they're not doing one now. Better to stick to fantasy for this campaign and hopefully they can do a sci fi themed campaign later on.
ced1106 wrote: Dang -- that bonus really IS a bonus. SG's would otherwise be 10K apart, but that bonus is only 5K after the previous SG, and 5K before the next one!\
Some backers wanted more mine track, so more mine track. I'm sure the miniature wargames would like more walls.
The first $75.000 allegedly funded 10 or so sprues. But after that it takes $10.000 to add one or two bits to one sprue. Think about that.
lord_blackfang wrote: The first $75.000 allegedly funded 10 or so sprues. But after that it takes $10.000 to add one or two bits to one sprue. Think about that.
EDIT: They're actually either adding more than two bits or a new sculpt now, even though the SG's remain at 10K apart. They've also added Bonus pieces only 5K after and before the next SG.
Heads up on the SG's. Some SG's are marked, like 325K, as "Kickstarter Bones" meaning that these pieces won't be in sets. "Bear in mind, these pieces will be added to a special Kickstarter Bonus section of the Crates and won't be going in the individual sets."
Another set completed!
And, speaking of sprues, he's a new piece backers wanted. Well, I did!
More dupes, but walls are always good on the battlefield. Plus another mine cart dead-end for your players to smash into.
"If that image gets shared more than 50 times by midnight on Sunday (May 7th), then we'll add everything below to the Crates to make sure the price per piece is even better!"
Ugh.. I am in for one of each. I hate myself for that but ultimately this has become a "buy this and never worry about terrain again" type of thing.
An interesting side effect of this though.. Reaper's Bones kickstarters have often utilized the lack of readily available cheap scatter terrain elements to increase the value of those campaigns. I wonder how it will impact their future decisions.
ced1106 wrote: Other than those who are interested in sf terrain, anyone still on the fence on this?
Chair added, social goal bonuses added, another three bonus pieces added in a few hours, etc. etc. 250+ pieces for $180 (550 pledges left), almost 100 for the Dungeon Crate.
Better start pricing for that Army Painter Leather Brown color primer!
I've moved from not willing to back to onto the fence. If Mantic don't decide to pull a fast one on shipping, and despite my misgivings about the way they have handled a lot of other things, including the digital KoW2 rulebooks, but I do like my scatter terrain, Mantic did a good job with the Mars Attacks and Dungeon Saga stuff and a fire-and forget campaign for a big pile of it in a better material than DS is indeed tempting me onto the fence.
I am still totally on the fence about this one. Value is great, variety is very good and applications are unlimited, but... I just can't bring myself to splurge that amount of money (and an appropriate amount of storage space and hobby time) to get everything. Would be a great wargaming community project for sure, though.
I want about half of the dungeon set and about half of the battlefield set, but I don't want to spend the money for two boxes. That is what is keeping me from caving in.
JoshInJapan wrote: I want about half of the dungeon set and about half of the battlefield set, but I don't want to spend the money for two boxes. That is what is keeping me from caving in.
They were supposed to add the option of an add-on for specific subsets within the crates. I don't remember the details but I thought it was like 20 bucks each or something.. Again.. can't remember but I know it was an option being discussed.
I noticed that a lot of what is on offer for this KS is very RP centric and less of the sort of thing you might see for most tabletop gaming.. outside of skirmish with specific scenarios, dioramas, or little finishing touches..
So.. I asked Mantic if this meant they might have an RPG in the works..
..sadly.. no.. they don't.. though they said it was a good idea, there's nothing in development.
Just thought I would post it in case anyone else was wodnering.
That's a point. I think there are plenty of generic fantasy RPGs on the market (not to mention dungeoncrawler games and miniature skirmish games) that Mantic might as well put their effort into bringing product that fills a demand (cheap terrain in bulk), rather than competes against other product. AFAIK, someone posted another company that made plastic terrain, but hasn't said if the price is still cheaper or competitive against this KS or when the terrain hits retail.
MLaw wrote: I noticed that a lot of what is on offer for this KS is very RP centric and less of the sort of thing you might see for most tabletop gaming.. outside of skirmish with specific scenarios, dioramas, or little finishing touches..
So.. I asked Mantic if this meant they might have an RPG in the works..
..sadly.. no.. they don't.. though they said it was a good idea, there's nothing in development.
Just thought I would post it in case anyone else was wodnering.
Ronnie doesn't feel it's within their skill set to produce, never say never, but not never is definitely a long way away.
Besides which, IMO the world needs more detail to provide a good setting.
Doesn't say much, other than "They told us at the last Mantic open day that a skirmish variant is due this year, sometime after the summer campaign"
2K to go to the 210K SG! Keep posting on your social networky thingamabobbers.
It was described to me as "the skirmishing forces meeting before Waterloo", so more akin to a Kings of War version of Warpath: Firefight than Deadzone or Mordheim
MLaw wrote: I noticed that a lot of what is on offer for this KS is very RP centric and less of the sort of thing you might see for most tabletop gaming.. outside of skirmish with specific scenarios, dioramas, or little finishing touches..
So.. I asked Mantic if this meant they might have an RPG in the works..
..sadly.. no.. they don't.. though they said it was a good idea, there's nothing in development.
Just thought I would post it in case anyone else was wodnering.
Ronnie doesn't feel it's within their skill set to produce, never say never, but not never is definitely a long way away.
Besides which, IMO the world needs more detail to provide a good setting.
That's a bit of a catch 22 though.. RPGs and supplements and expansions are a MASSIVE way of building that sort of thing. I was looking over the ranges and this kickstarter specifically.. They don't have a lot of the iconic symbology and just general product identity that makes the main competition so memorable. People remember the Skaven symbol, the 2-tailed comet, those crazy heart, phoenix, and lion shapes from the Elves, the runes and symbols for the Dwarves.. all of it.. Mantic is really just super generic in those departments. So visually they need to grow and build that sort of thing but also.. thought into campaign settings (where the RPG thing comes in). Warhammer FB's RPG embellished on a lot of that for GW.. in the same way the campaign settings for D&D, Pathfinder, White Wolf games, Shadowrun, Battletech. Maybe novels can pick up some of that slack but without world books to flesh out things like the belief system of the Basileans, the rituals involved with bringing in the undead,, power struggles of the various Orc and/or Goblin tribes, or the areas and types of game the Ogres hunt. To me that's really MORE of a reason to push for an RPG, even if it's basically a slightly scaled up version of Dungeon Saga with some light RP elements.
Doesn't say much, other than "They told us at the last Mantic open day that a skirmish variant is due this year, sometime after the summer campaign"
2K to go to the 210K SG! Keep posting on your social networky thingamabobbers.
It was described to me as "the skirmishing forces meeting before Waterloo", so more akin to a Kings of War version of Warpath: Firefight than Deadzone or Mordheim
So still keeping to units in the traditional sense rather than individual models and characters? Hopefully that doesn't open the door to unnecessary complication..
I keep waffling on whether I want in on this or not. Many of the pieces look neat, but seem a bit knick-knackery for wargaming. Most of my skirmish games are largely set outdoors, so I'm having a hard time justifying the purchase. Sure they would look neat, but not add much in function, and probably not add as much even visually as a similar amount of money spent on existing resin terrain, like buildings and ruins.
I figure that some of the smaller knick-knackery pieces will look great either based up in a group as scatter terrain, or built directly into larger terrain pieces or even monster bases.
Did you see the digital reconstruction of 16th century Edinburgh right after a battle? Loads of heaps of sacks and carts and such in the streets, presumably due to looting.
Ian Sturrock wrote: I figure that some of the smaller knick-knackery pieces will look great either based up in a group as scatter terrain, or built directly into larger terrain pieces or even monster bases.
Did you see the digital reconstruction of 16th century Edinburgh right after a battle? Loads of heaps of sacks and carts and such in the streets, presumably due to looting.
They've been killing it today nearly 485k. Eating up little stretch goals right now and another add on set at 500k. If they still do 48 hour notices I think they're in a great place for those to go out.
I believe the $180 3 crate pledge was quoted at 63c/49p a piece which is certainly noticeably better than the start.
That temple set was from my long suggestion for a terraincrate 2.0. Almost everything currently in the set was there and I think they'll draw from the other parts of the original suggestion if they fill it out more. SO.. here's what those were in case people are looking forward to it or curious.
Pews - I am kinda hopeful on this one because I have a Pegasus cathedral that needs seating. Reliquary, Shrine, Idols/Icons - Seems like a no-brainer but I don't know that they've developed the symbology enough to pull this one off. Tithing Box - This one might be too obscure Ornate chairs, desks, and tables - Thinking maybe not since there's no shortage of desks and there's already a pretty sweet chair or two. Confessional - I would be really surprised if they worked this in since it would have to be fairly large and is basically a structure.
In another part of the rather lengthy proposed 2.0 I mentioned a Basilean encampment. That's actually where the reflecting pool was taken from. Most other aspects of that dealt with it being a camp though.. so outside of the reliquary and artifacts I don't know too many other parts of it that would carry over to this particular add-on.
EDIT1: I forgot about another thing that could potentially work it's way into this.. I mentioned a pyre.. the intention was a public witch burning type thing but I don't know if that translated just from "pyre" and I think I mentioned incense stands and candelabras but I am not sure.. EDIT2: Found the original suggestion..
Spoiler:
You know.. if they write down a lot of the ideas people have they will have enough to do a 2.0.. Dungeon Crate 2.0 Warlord's Stronghold - Throne, trophies, tusk prison cell walls, pet panther, warlord's bedding, War table Spiderqueen's Nest - Eggs, webbed support beams and stone pillars, captured prey (humanoid and animal), carcasses and bones, dead spiders, mushroom patches The Cursed Halls - Suits of armor standing at attention - Animated suits in the same style, blade traps, animated/ghostly paintings, stone imp statue, monkey paw, rugs (normal), same rugs but 1 flying, one wrapped around bones, one reared back forming a giant mouth (mimic) The Goblin Village - Mawbeast pens, mawbeast posts, litters, and feeding troughs, goblin bazaar, goblin warren, cook's mess (literally) Battlefield Crate 2.0 Neritica Beach - Giga pulling a train of hermit crabs with supplies, shipwreck pieces, half destroyed rowboats, boxes covered in netting, smaller crabs and other creatures pulling shells with smaller loads of treasure or armor and gear. Basilean Encampment - Altar, Shrine, Commanders tent, sacred artifact, anointed reflecting basin, pyres, posts for the horses, lance training devices, covered tables Nature's barriers - tangles of thick thorned vines, carnivorous plants, earth that has been magically curled up into a barricade Deaths' stronghold - Walls of corpses, barricades of bone, cadaver on a Catherine Wheel Crate - Town 2.0 Town Justice - Bench of the high judge, Juror box, stands for the accusor and accused, gallows, chopping block, head bucket, stockade Accoutrements of the Priory - Pulpit, pews, confessional, reliquary, tithing box, incense stands, icons of Basilea, tables, desks, chairs Market and tradesmen - Vendor stands, food stands, baker's tools and loaves of bread, woodwright's tools and stacks of lumber, various bagged food items, ropes, coils of rope, saddles, sawhorses The House of Ill-repute - card tables, bookie stand, kennels, benches, buckets, low-rise bleachers, posts with targets and daggers sticking out, paymaster's stand, stakes with ropes that can form a fighting ring
That's a bit of a catch 22 though.. RPGs and supplements and expansions are a MASSIVE way of building that sort of thing. I was looking over the ranges and this kickstarter specifically.. They don't have a lot of the iconic symbology and just general product identity that makes the main competition so memorable. People remember the Skaven symbol, the 2-tailed comet, those crazy heart, phoenix, and lion shapes from the Elves, the runes and symbols for the Dwarves.. all of it.. Mantic is really just super generic in those departments. So visually they need to grow and build that sort of thing but also.. thought into campaign settings (where the RPG thing comes in). Warhammer FB's RPG embellished on a lot of that for GW.. in the same way the campaign settings for D&D, Pathfinder, White Wolf games, Shadowrun, Battletech. Maybe novels can pick up some of that slack but without world books to flesh out things like the belief system of the Basileans, the rituals involved with bringing in the undead,, power struggles of the various Orc and/or Goblin tribes, or the areas and types of game the Ogres hunt. To me that's really MORE of a reason to push for an RPG, even if it's basically a slightly scaled up version of Dungeon Saga with some light RP elements.
You're correct that Mantic's world is super generic at present, and that RPGs are a good way to flesh that out, but I disagree that Mantic should be looking into such a thing. All of that WH iconography that you mention is fine, and well and good if you're playing WHFRP, but the generic nature of these sets (and if the TWD material is as good as people have said) then by remaining generic this has a mass appeal that ranges from "filling out" miniatures games like DS/WHQ/HQ but more importantly gives them a great product for all the many, many D&D/Pathfinder/etc RPGs out there.
It has the potential (if done right) to kick the ass of simple efforts of Reaper (plus Bones plastic is not a great material) but also go in nicely alongside things like high-end (Dwarven Forge) through to low-end (people drawing corridors with erasable dry markers on laminated graph paper). I've been a huge critic of Mantic at times, but they do have the ability to create some kick-arse scenery, and both the Mars Attacks and Dungeon Saga stuff was not perfect, but pretty decent, and if they have continued to improve then it's a case of Mantic building on their strengths, which is a good thing. Product like this, especially quality stuff at a decent price has the potential to reach a really wide market, since the alternative seems to be much more expensive resin equivalents or purchasing Hirst Arts moulds - both lacking in the simple-to-acquire variety on offer here.
Creating an RPG is a lot of work and a lot of expense and a lot of risk and as you've correctly said - Mantica is a rather sterile, generic "world" which derives rather a lot from the already-derivative Old World - so there's very little in the way of a hook to draw people in when they could play in The actual Old World or The Forgotten Realms or Middle-Earth or.... so why would anyone but the Mantic faithful pick up and play in an RPG world that lacks anything compelling?
better to publish a few more digital novellas and add some fluff pages to each of the next KoW campaign books, and maybe one day they'll get there. Probably not, but that's ok.
I may get got by the add-on crate in the PM. Right now I think the sets need a lot of love to approach the main three, besides which being only 3x sets vs 4. Still, it's a bit of a thing for the completionists.
Starting to wonder if they're going to fill out the temple set more.. a broken pillar with just over 24 hours to go.. and still adding stuff to other sets.. Either way.. this is a massive load of terrain.
Azazel - I think we'll agree to disagree on those finer points. The generic nature is definitely useful but they could very easily release symbols the way GW does for shields and whatnot.
I dunno.. maybe it is their business strategy to always be the generic distant cousin to ..everything.. but I know for a fact they want to break out of that.. Ronnie and whoever was running the DZ KS comments both said as much.. They really despise being seen as a knockoff of X Y or Z and want to be their own thing.
As to who would want to do that? Well.. Pathfinder was a generic "Not-D&D".. and really IMO it still is (I don't own or play it in any capacity) but it's wildly popular. I can't say (as nobody can) that it would or wouldn't do well.. We just don't know that. We do know that if they never try we'll never know for sure.
MLaw wrote: Starting to wonder if they're going to fill out the temple set more.. a broken pillar with just over 24 hours to go.. and still adding stuff to other sets.. Either way.. this is a massive load of terrain.
Azazel - I think we'll agree to disagree on those finer points. The generic nature is definitely useful but they could very easily release symbols the way GW does for shields and whatnot.
I dunno.. maybe it is their business strategy to always be the generic distant cousin to ..everything.. but I know for a fact they want to break out of that.. Ronnie and whoever was running the DZ KS comments both said as much.. They really despise being seen as a knockoff of X Y or Z and want to be their own thing.
Sure, though Mantica doesn't even have symbols to my knowledge. They certainly don't have any strong iconography at this stage. It's going to take a lot of work for them to be seen as more than a GW-lite company, given their past and much of their present, (Ironic if it was in the comments of DZ, which generally has been seen as Not-Nercomunda!) but best of luck to them with things like the TWD licence and such (and this campaign for generic sceneries).
As to who would want to do that? Well.. Pathfinder was a generic "Not-D&D".. and really IMO it still is (I don't own or play it in any capacity) but it's wildly popular. I can't say (as nobody can) that it would or wouldn't do well.. We just don't know that. We do know that if they never try we'll never know for sure.
Yeah, Pathfinder seems to pretty much be D&D 3.5++ essentially, but it's based on the D20 system and shares enough stuff so that people just use their D&D modules with it. Mantic would be starting from pretty much scratch, and competing with things like and including Pathfinder while still lacking their own hook/USP. While on one level I don't much care what they do with their resources and time, on the other level I'm a little concerned that it would be throwing same into a black hole when they could be using same to be getting better at their core business - minis games and minis. Better to flesh their world out with some commissioned novels and short stories. Especially since they can do that on the cheap with e-books and "aspiring" writers willing to work for free/very little a la the Rules Committees.
As to who would want to do that? Well.. Pathfinder was a generic "Not-D&D".. and really IMO it still is (I don't own or play it in any capacity) but it's wildly popular. I can't say (as nobody can) that it would or wouldn't do well.. We just don't know that. We do know that if they never try we'll never know for sure.
Yeah, Pathfinder seems to pretty much be D&D 3.5++ essentially, but it's based on the D20 system and shares enough stuff so that people just use their D&D modules with it.
From a rules perspective, sure - Pathfinder was deliberately written to be D&D 3.75 when D&D went all MMO with 4th edition.
When you look at the breadth of material available about Golarion, however, brushing the setting off as a "generic "not-D&D"" is doing Paizo a massive disservice.
From a rules perspective, sure - Pathfinder was deliberately written to be D&D 3.75 when D&D went all MMO with 4th edition.
When you look at the breadth of material available about Golarion, however, brushing the setting off as a "generic "not-D&D"" is doing Paizo a massive disservice.
Yes, each country is its own generic adventure setting. There's the basic high fantasy country, the basic low fantasy country, the against the slavers country, the against the evil mages country, the cowboy country, the good dictatorship country, etc. All strewn about the map randomly with no thought on how such ridiculously diverse tech levels and political systems could exist in close proximity.
Yeah, Pathfinder seems to pretty much be D&D 3.5++ essentially, but it's based on the D20 system and shares enough stuff so that people just use their D&D modules with it.
From a rules perspective, sure - Pathfinder was deliberately written to be D&D 3.75 when D&D went all MMO with 4th edition.
When you look at the breadth of material available about Golarion, however, brushing the setting off as a "generic "not-D&D"" is doing Paizo a massive disservice.
I'll admit I know very little about Paizo's publications, but it certainly makes sense that they've developed a fleshed-out world to go with their ruleset. Of course, they've started from a strong system position with Pathfinder itself - especially with the backlash against 4th - as opposed to starting from "no RPG experience" with a generic not-Warhammer world. My Pathfinder experience has been very limited - with a friend running randomly generated dungeons rather than "proper" adventures.
Well i Put in $1, but for such an enormous amount of terrain there really isn't much that would be useful for my AoS board... I would need to build a little village to be able to use most of this stuff.
I'm jumping in a little late here since the campaign is over, but Mantic do have the adventure game book to expand their brand. It's a fun read that really makes me want to go back and take every pathway to find all the hidden items and bits of lore.
It kills me to say this, but I think Mantic should make more of these in a digital format, perhaps as an app or MS Paint Aventures-style hypertext, and include links on the pamphlets they include in all KoW boxes. The adventures do not need to be very long, only as long as the town segment in the first book really, to give a little tour and some background while introducing the mechanics of the tabletop game. They could have one for humans/dwarfs/elves, one for Abyssal factions, one for elementals, where your character must reach the battlefield/survive an assassin/defeat a spy while seeing the sights in Basilea, the Abyss, Valandor's Tower, a Naiad seafort, etc., and meeting notable characters. Perhaps there can be a hero generator at the end that gives you KoW stats and cost based on the choices you made and loot you won.
Mymearan wrote: Well i Put in $1, but for such an enormous amount of terrain there really isn't much that would be useful for my AoS board... I would need to build a little village to be able to use most of this stuff.
Yeah, noting the fact that most of this stuff isn't suited for big wargames so much as RPG type stuff is what led me to the whole question/suggestion about a Mantica RPG type game. TBH, NOT having a RPG on the way makes a lot of this stuff seem like a very bizarre choice for them to go to market with. I know they have a "skirmish" game on the way plus DS.. but most of this really does strike me as more RPG or at the very least skirmish in the individualized model nature of that format more than what we've been told they're actually doing..
I really enjoyed the KS though.. but part of me does fully expect them, in full Mantic fashion, to suddenly announce that they're going to be releasing these in metal or that they've decided to ditch the add-ons and allow us to choose an e-book nobody wants or somesuch.
I think they're just smart enough to realise that skirmish games are pretty popular right now. I mean most of this stuff is *perfect* for Frostgrave, which is still selling very nicely AFAIK.
I think they would be very foolish to make a fantasy heartbreaker RPG. I mean that stuff was getting old in the 90s: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/9/
Yes, making an RPG can help you flesh out a world, but only a world that's already interesting and distinctive.
Then after the project ended, they said they wouldn't make them, so I had to spend my pledge money on other stuff I didn't really need.
Then they made them anyway
I feel your pain. I had to divert my adventure book pledge to Valandor and an expansion with some decent abyssal minis and also a Moloch.
But none of that is the book's fault, nor Matt Gilbert's, so I got a copy, anyway. I plan to buy the next one, too, if they ever release it. I had a lot of fun ransacking a church, slaying an elf to take his trail mix, and indeed finding a sword in a stone.
I was also tempted by the battlefield crate but held off getting it. I figure we know it's going to be produced and hit retail eventually so I didn't feel a pressing need and I can't even recall what all I'm getting from that Outpost KS that's still working on production so waiting let's me try to pick out stuff that fits in with that wooden fort aesthetic.
They don't look like they will be even close to chest high on a 28-32 mm figure. If the picture is accurate, and they are 150mm long, they look to be only about 16mm high. And a miniature will be on a 2-3mm thick base, so those walls are unlikely to even come up to the waist.
I'm not seeing the scale shot in question but 2 things:
1. You can base the sections of wall. Putting them on a bit of MDF, foamcore, or cardboard will raise them about 1/4".
2. I had never thought to complain that my Renedra walls and fences weren't tall enough. I have been missing out on this fresh topic to complain about all along and I didn't even know it!
MLaw wrote: 2. I had never thought to complain that my Renedra walls and fences weren't tall enough. I have been missing out on this fresh topic to complain about all along and I didn't even know it!
Pshaw! And you call yourself a gamer!
I am a New Englander - and there are an awful lot of stone walls in my part of the world that have a height determined by how many rocks were in the field when they were trying to plow it.
The point was not only to build a wall, it was to get rid of the danged rocks.
The Auld Grump - there are still pines with the King's Crown emblazoned on the bark - marking the trees as property of the Royal Navy....
Prestor Jon wrote: I was also tempted by the battlefield crate but held off getting it. I figure we know it's going to be produced and hit retail eventually so I didn't feel a pressing need and I can't even recall what all I'm getting from that Outpost KS that's still working on production so waiting let's me try to pick out stuff that fits in with that wooden fort aesthetic.
I actually got the Battle Crate *because* of the Outpost. Never know when you'll have some farms behind the outpost that need protecting!
Went in for the three-crate pledge, because I've paid for some of these pieces in resin before, from $5 for a piece, to $.50. Johnny Lauck's also no longer going to be KS projects, so there goes another source of inexpensive terrain (ObPlug: JK's KS for anthros and dungeon terrain is currently running!).
MLaw wrote: 2. I had never thought to complain that my Renedra walls and fences weren't tall enough. I have been missing out on this fresh topic to complain about all along and I didn't even know it!
Pshaw! And you call yourself a gamer!
I am a New Englander - and there are an awful lot of stone walls in my part of the world that have a height determined by how many rocks were in the field when they were trying to plow it.
The point was not only to build a wall, it was to get rid of the danged rocks.
The Auld Grump - there are still pines with the King's Crown emblazoned on the bark - marking the trees as property of the Royal Navy....
I was using sarcasm. Though the walls here in San Diego are man-made brick affairs.. I grew up in GA and my grandpa had made a fair few of the smaller walls that he used to block off little gardens and edges of property etc.
EDIT: I was thinking though (side note).. why did Mantic crowd fund this? While the cheap stuff is cool, it doesn't strike me as something terribly expensive.. are they running out of money?
Prestor Jon wrote: I was also tempted by the battlefield crate but held off getting it. I figure we know it's going to be produced and hit retail eventually so I didn't feel a pressing need and I can't even recall what all I'm getting from that Outpost KS that's still working on production so waiting let's me try to pick out stuff that fits in with that wooden fort aesthetic.
I actually got the Battle Crate *because* of the Outpost. Never know when you'll have some farms behind the outpost that need protecting!
Oh, you guys still think Dark Age Outpost will deliver? That's so cute.
MLaw wrote: 2. I had never thought to complain that my Renedra walls and fences weren't tall enough. I have been missing out on this fresh topic to complain about all along and I didn't even know it!
Pshaw! And you call yourself a gamer!
I am a New Englander - and there are an awful lot of stone walls in my part of the world that have a height determined by how many rocks were in the field when they were trying to plow it.
The point was not only to build a wall, it was to get rid of the danged rocks.
The Auld Grump - there are still pines with the King's Crown emblazoned on the bark - marking the trees as property of the Royal Navy....
I was using sarcasm. Though the walls here in San Diego are man-made brick affairs.. I grew up in GA and my grandpa had made a fair few of the smaller walls that he used to block off little gardens and edges of property etc.
EDIT: I was thinking though (side note).. why did Mantic crowd fund this? While the cheap stuff is cool, it doesn't strike me as something terribly expensive.. are they running out of money?
Marketing.
For a company like Mantic or CMON, creating and reinforcing brand awareness is just as important as all that risk free development money. It's cheaper than buying local access commercials featuring cringe-worthy actors screaming in a mall shop.
MLaw wrote: 2. I had never thought to complain that my Renedra walls and fences weren't tall enough. I have been missing out on this fresh topic to complain about all along and I didn't even know it!
Pshaw! And you call yourself a gamer!
I am a New Englander - and there are an awful lot of stone walls in my part of the world that have a height determined by how many rocks were in the field when they were trying to plow it.
The point was not only to build a wall, it was to get rid of the danged rocks.
The Auld Grump - there are still pines with the King's Crown emblazoned on the bark - marking the trees as property of the Royal Navy....
I was using sarcasm. Though the walls here in San Diego are man-made brick affairs.. I grew up in GA and my grandpa had made a fair few of the smaller walls that he used to block off little gardens and edges of property etc.
EDIT: I was thinking though (side note).. why did Mantic crowd fund this? While the cheap stuff is cool, it doesn't strike me as something terribly expensive.. are they running out of money?
Marketing.
For a company like Mantic or CMON, creating and reinforcing brand awareness is just as important as all that risk free development money. It's cheaper than buying local access commercials featuring cringe-worthy actors screaming in a mall shop.
And the risk free development money is nothing to be sneezed at, all by its lonesome.
When you have the chance to spend other people's money on capitol investments... go for it!
Kickstarter is a lot less of a risk than floating, or trying to float, a business loan - with a lot less spent on interest. (A one time pay off from materials paid for by the investment money, with no compound interest.)
For a niche market like gaming - Kickstarter is a much wiser way to do things.
: 
Orcs Army for four months! 
