Now that GW has pulled their head out of their ass and is making awesome rules and solid balance, I'm sure many leavers will come back and many new players will pick 40K.
How much do you think this will ruin the day of games like WMH which can't compete on models and only ever grew like weeds because GW wasn't tending their backyard.
I personally think they're going to see a solid drop around the launch and then a continuous loss of popularity as even the most entrenched 40k haters go back to the miniatures they truly love.
It's less clear that it would affect micro games like x wing though but they're not in the same category imo, that's more BFG.
So.... games that are made by manufacturers other than GW. Why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel?
Accusing other manufacturers of uninspiring back ground and miniatures, as though GW are the height of creativity? Do me a favour.
Other manufacturers can't match GW on models and are weeds? GW models are for the most part abhorrent. Their CAD designed stuff is woeful. Other companies aren't weeds, they are the fresh blood that filled the space left by the diseased old rot that was GW.
There may be some people who go back to GW. Their current path is promising and is a relief after over a decade of stagnation, lack of inspiration and mismanagement. I really do hope the 'new' GW is a success and continues to put out good games. But a lot of the 'haters' came to recognise GW for what it was and it'll take quite a bit more to bring them back. I'm not saying it won't happen, but 8th by itself is not going to be the great turn around. It may be the start.
It would help if GW started producing miniatures that were of decent quality, at the moment they simply can't match the good manufacturers out there.
Wow just wow, leaving the obvious troll bait to one side and trying to answer the question in the thread title.
I honestly don't think a good 40k 8th ed will hurt the competition at all. There will probably be a drop off people playing other games as former 40k player dig their old armies out and try the new rules but I suspect that for those who return and enjoy it 40k 8th ed will become one of the many games they play. Variety is the spice of life especially when it comes to hobbies. If anything I could potentially see a strong 40k helping other games as new players want to explore the rest of the hobby. Sure initially that'll probably be AOS and other GW games but eventually they're almost certainly going to be exposed to other manufacturers games and maybe want to give them a try too. As much as many people seem wish it weren't the case a strong GW is good for wargaming as a whole even if in the past GW have wanted nothing to do with the wider hobby. Huge number of gamers get their start in GW games (for me it was 40k 3rd ed) and then move on to other things, a strong GW with lots of customers can only result in more gamers. One final point there are also gamers coming from the likes of pen and paper RPGs and board games who will also want to try wargaming and I'm willing to be that a lot of them are not going to go straight for 40k as their first step into wargaming. Instead they are likely in my mind to look at the likes of X-Wing or the huge number of games that exist these days that blur the lines between RPG, board game and miniature wargame.
As for me I'll take a look at this new 40k but will I play it? Probably not, these days I just don't enjoy having to use huge numbers of individually based minis at 28mm scale (or whatever we're calling GW stuff now). For 28mm I much prefer games of at most 3 or 4 small squads and a couple of support units unless I can multi base or use movement trays to make life easy.
I don't think that 8th is going to do much to hurt other systems at least in the short term,
those that have left 40K down to the gameplay but were still interested in the lore may well come back but they'll probably carry on with their other games too
and their reduced spend on the other games will be balanced by their talking to current GW players about the other games which will get some of them to try it too earlier than they otherwise would have
longer term though if 8th is a big hit and actually manages to do balance and competitive better than they've done for a long while there is going to be a negative effect on other smaller games
GW is still by far the most common entry into the hobby and a significant number of those investigating and then playing other stuff are ex-gw players who have burned out (the rules are too complex, the rules aren't complex enough, not balanced enough, cost etc), and the better the GW game is the slower that burnout will happened
less people giving up on GW (but not the hobby) = fewer new players for other things
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: I don't think that 8th is going to do much to hurt other systems at least in the short term,
those that have left 40K down to the gameplay but were still interested in the lore may well come back but they'll probably carry on with their other games too
and their reduced spend on the other games will be balanced by their talking to current GW players about the other games which will get some of them to try it too earlier than they otherwise would have
longer term though if 8th is a big hit and actually manages to do balance and competitive better than they've done for a long while there is going to be a negative effect on other smaller games
GW is still by far the most common entry into the hobby and a significant number of those investigating and then playing other stuff are ex-gw players who have burned out (the rules are too complex, the rules aren't complex enough, not balanced enough, cost etc), and the better the GW game is the slower that burnout will happened
less people giving up on GW (but not the hobby) = fewer new players for other things
Excellent points.
I think overall the shift will be massively in favor of GW though, as ex-40k players have been "selling" other games for ages now and have pretty much convinced most of the available pool.
With all that's been announced about 8th and the massive change in direction and execution by GW, I wouldn't be surprised if 40K doubles in revenue and active players within a year.
Those have to come from somewhere and it would only make sense that the games previously used as an escape from 40k would end up taking the biggest hit.
I think a lot of these "leavers" would remain sceptical and cautious about returning to 40k in the short term, while 8th will have to unfold over time to reveal if it was a good move or merely more of the same.
40k did need another reboot though, but again time will tell if this is the reboot it needed or not.
Gamers that like other systems to 40k wont really be affected imho. Would tou jump ship from WMH or FoW just because GW has released "yet another edition" and hyped it (pretty) well to be fair?
Doubt it.
I'd invest in a brand new system if I had the time and motivation. As it stands 40k suits my needs fairly well but for others who have invested just as much as me in other systems its a non runner to switch.
I would expect most "returners" will be returning from playing AoS personally . Would expect Warpath and BGoA and similar games to take a bit of a kicking as well .
Dont really see many other types of games seeing much more player attrition than usual , if your into Guild Ball or whatever ,a new 40k doesnt really offer any direct competition to that type of game
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: I don't think that 8th is going to do much to hurt other systems at least in the short term,
those that have left 40K down to the gameplay but were still interested in the lore may well come back but they'll probably carry on with their other games too
and their reduced spend on the other games will be balanced by their talking to current GW players about the other games which will get some of them to try it too earlier than they otherwise would have
longer term though if 8th is a big hit and actually manages to do balance and competitive better than they've done for a long while there is going to be a negative effect on other smaller games
GW is still by far the most common entry into the hobby and a significant number of those investigating and then playing other stuff are ex-gw players who have burned out (the rules are too complex, the rules aren't complex enough, not balanced enough, cost etc), and the better the GW game is the slower that burnout will happened
less people giving up on GW (but not the hobby) = fewer new players for other things
I agree with most of the above.
I disagree with the conclusion that there will be fewer players for other things though, especially considering the current trend of simple rule sets. Players do not need to dedicate themselves to a single game, they can have GW and something else.
I don't think 8th will change much, because what we've seen so far isn't all that impressive. The impression I have so far is that 8th is still going to be a flawed game, and it just looks amazing when compared to the unplayable mess of 7th. So yeah, 40k will pick up some returning players who really wanted to play 40k and only stopped because 7th was too broken, but nothing we've seen so far suggests that 8th is the kind of must-buy game that is going to attract people who don't already want to play 40k. If you enjoy WM/H then nothing about 8th edition is going to change that, it's a completely different genre of game with completely different fluff/models. Even if you do play some 8th on the side you're still going to keep up with WM/H. Now, a person who grudgingly playes WM/H because they're addicted to miniatures games and have to play something if they aren't playing 40k will come back, but how many people like that actually exist?
And I agree with the comments that GW's models are nothing special. If you like them, great, but that's subjective aesthetic preference. Nothing about them is inherently and objectively superior to the models produced by other companies. So it's absurd to say that everyone truly loves GW's models, and will immediately dump everything else to buy more GW stuff once 8th arrives. In fact, the people with that level of love for GW's models probably never left in the first place, they just kept buying because they love the models that much. GW's biggest losses have come from people who care about the rules, not the models.
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morgoth wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if 40K doubles in revenue and active players within a year.
I would. The idea that GW can double its revenue within a year is utter lunacy, and not supported at all by their financial numbers. Doubling 40k's revenue would mean not only reversing GW's entire decline from the past decade or so, but vastly expanding the company beyond its previous peak. Even if you assume that every single 40k player who moved to another game comes back for 8th you still have to recruit a ton of new players, especially since those returning customers likely have established armies and don't need to buy much to resume playing. IOW, doubling their revenue is simply not going to happen.
Yeah, you can see how others competitors have very fast accostumed to the GW ways, raising prices to no end and beginning the GW-style greedy downfall of hold. Competition can only be good to customers.
I think a resurgent GW spells trouble for middling companies, or those attempting to expand.
Why not the little guys? Well, they tend to be a niche within a niche. For instance, someone I know has been writing background fiction for Wild West Exodus, a game about to enter its second edition. Whilst not a setting I'm especially keen on aesthetically, being an Atherpunk Cowboy setting is a unique selling point - so from there they're doing something incredibly different to GW.
Warmahordes? Well from what I gather online, PP have been irritating their players somewhat, but the game remains distinct to GW aesthetically.
But the middle guys? Gates of Antares could be in for a real scrap if the new 40k delivers its vaunted promises, because both games are sci-fi. 40k there has a distinct edge in that there's gamers out there with armies they've not touched, so can get back into 40k very easily.
As for Specialist Games? That remains to be seen. Bloodbowl appears to selling very well based on how easily stuff has sold out, but that could be misleading, and due to incredibly low stock held. The others are yet to come, so we'll have to wait and see. I'm massively hyped for the return of Adeptus Titanicus, but that's based on nostalgia. If the game is a swing and a miss, they may struggle to get the sales needed to support it, as those Titans may not be especially cheap. And if that struggles, seems possible we might kiss goodbye to a full return for Epic - something which the makers of games in a similar scale breather a sigh of relief.
Now that GW has pulled their head out of their ass and is making awesome rules and solid balance, I'm sure many leavers will come back and many new players will pick 40K.
How much do you think this will ruin the day of games like WMH which can't compete on models and only ever grew like weeds because GW wasn't tending their backyard.
I personally think they're going to see a solid drop around the launch and then a continuous loss of popularity as even the most entrenched 40k haters go back to the miniatures they truly love.
It's less clear that it would affect micro games like x wing though but they're not in the same category imo, that's more BFG.
I think, if 8E turns out *roughly* like they're portraying it, my guess is that 40k will rapidly regain health and return to the #1 spot that it held before the 6E/7E debacle.
That said, I don't think it will ever be the single dominating monolith it used to be, GW has borked up too often for too long and others have established firm footholds in the market with deep followings, while successive editions have shed that old school charm and weirdness the game had. If I were getting into tabletop games today, right now, 40k would not be quite as interesting to me as it was in older editions, the background stuff is thinner in substance and the visuals/art/model displays/etc all feel much less "authentic" and much more staged/marketing/etc and increasingly stylized along the lines of something out of LoL or WoW.
I also don't think you can say games like WMH can't compete on models, they make some excellent models, they're just stylized in a way that doesn't appeal to as many people and they don't make much "big" stuff. WMH, Heavy Gear, Dropzone Commander, Infinity, etc all make some truly excellent models that easily match or exceed much of what GW puts out, they just don't make stuff as *big* as GW does, or do it all in plastic. Plastic has its downsides, it doesn't do certain kinds of detail well (undercuts, fine detail, stuff like flowing robes often have to be exaggerated to look quite right, etc) and, due to such models being done in CAD, very much have a "CG" look to them (compare the old metal GK termi's to the plastic ones for example). GW is the king of plastic and "big", but not necessarily the king of awesome models in general.
But either way, 8E looks, on the whole, to be an improvement. Given that 6E and 7E were such dog turds, I'm not sure exactly *how* much of an improvement, but we'll see. If GW really hits it out of the park with a *reasonably* functional ruleset and *mostly* balanced armies, 40k is going to sell...very well, but I don't think it will ever regain the stranglehold it once had on the market.
X-Wing a micro-game ? the numbers suggest otherwise didn't it knock 40k off the biggest geek game sales volume throne the other year ?
I doubt it'll do much damage to other games, I suspect a lot of players especially the 'returning' spend will be limited to a BRB and Army book, less if they are happy with PDF's for their i-beeps or whatever
I doubt it'll really even dent the smaller skirmish games market as they provide wider range of settings / flavour / dice so people choose to play them over even the (hopefully) damn fine vanilla of 8th
Even WMH is kind of safe as the player base remains fairly chipper despite PP'S best efforts
So basically no, you are wronger than replacing Saturday morning cartoons with cookingcshows
Given Flames of Wars just gone to 4th edition, which has had it appears something of a tepid reaction due to the way its been handled they may get a few back from there.
Me for one.
Don't think it will hurt other games, but may get some long shelved armies with the dust blown off them
Turnip Jedi wrote: X-Wing a micro-game ? the numbers suggest otherwise didn't it knock 40k off the biggest geek game sales volume throne the other year ?
I doubt it'll do much damage to other games, I suspect a lot of players especially the 'returning' spend will be limited to a BRB and Army book, less if they are happy with PDF's for their i-beeps or whatever
I doubt it'll really even dent the smaller skirmish games market as they provide wider range of settings / flavour / dice so people choose to play them over even the (hopefully) damn fine vanilla of 8th
Even WMH is kind of safe as the player base remains fairly chipper despite PP'S best efforts
So basically no, you are wronger than replacing Saturday morning cartoons with cookingcshows
About X-Wing what I meant is that it's closer to a Bloodbowl or other specialist game, with very limited rules, options and game time.
It's clearly making a ton of money, but I don't really put it in the same category as 40K personally.
I don't think it appeals to the same people or ever really competes with 40K.
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leopard wrote: Don't think it will hurt other games, but may get some long shelved armies with the dust blown off them
I'd love to see that tbh, there's so many people I'd like to play against who won't touch 40K 6/7e anyway.
I'm not quite sure I'm understanding your point here
You appear to be saying there is a finite amount of disposable hobby income, which I agree with
You then say a good 8th edition will redirect an amount of this finite money to GW, and away from other companies, it's possible but probably not on the scale you state
You then dismiss a game whose sales are comparable to as is 40k as 'not the same' but clearly it sucks up a fair portion of the same finite hobby money
And obviously YMMV but in my recent experience all the X-Wing players at my gaming club previously played 40k, yes it's a tiny sample but the last local regional held for X-Wing pulled just smidge over 100 players and the local big annual 40k bash pulled mid-40's, again this could be just a local bias, but its telling, also of all of 40k's options, much like a CCG maybe 20% are actual competitive choices, X-Wing also has that issue to a degree but at a guess its nearer to 50%
I think, having had this discussion on multiple occasions before, 40K is essentially Schrodingers wargame, where it simultaneously is exactly the same and completely different from every other game on the market depending on the argument that the 40K fan is trying to champion/defend.
8th ed will have no effect on the other companies. 40k is a solid game but it wont turn people who arent interested. on the other hand it may bring back a handful from before but it could just as easily drive off all the players who hate AoS. but I have to also point out this is not a win/lose type thing most people I know play more than one system.
You appear to be saying there is a finite amount of disposable hobby income, which I agree with
You then say a good 8th edition will redirect an amount of this finite money to GW, and away from other companies, it's possible but probably not on the scale you state
You then dismiss a game whose sales are comparable to as is 40k as 'not the same' but clearly it sucks up a fair portion of the same finite hobby money
And obviously YMMV but in my recent experience all the X-Wing players at my gaming club previously played 40k, yes it's a tiny sample but the last local regional held for X-Wing pulled just smidge over 100 players and the local big annual 40k bash pulled mid-40's, again this could be just a local bias, but its telling, also of all of 40k's options, much like a CCG maybe 20% are actual competitive choices, X-Wing also has that issue to a degree but at a guess its nearer to 50%
I had no idea 40K players switched to X Wing, but it's interesting considering how vastly different the games are.
As previously mentionned, I'm sure X Wing has major traction, I just don't think moving 5 spaceships over a flat mat is a reasonable comparison with assembling, painting and then moving 100 miniatures across a table with 3D terrain.
But this is definitely interesting since it opens up other niches which might stand to lose from that hypothetical success, including hybrid games like xwing and full on board games even.
Then, to be blunt, you're so hopelessly unaware of the market you've essentially disqualified yourself from being able to have any sort of informed discussion about it.
morgoth wrote: As previously mentionned, I'm sure X Wing has major traction, I just don't think moving 5 spaceships over a flat mat is a reasonable comparison with assembling, painting and then moving 100 miniatures across a table with 3D terrain.
Then how is WM/H a competitor to 40k? After all, WM/H doesn't involve 100 miniatures or 3d terrain. So clearly the WM/H players are a different market, and 40k's success will have no effect on them.
You appear to be saying there is a finite amount of disposable hobby income, which I agree with
You then say a good 8th edition will redirect an amount of this finite money to GW, and away from other companies, it's possible but probably not on the scale you state
You then dismiss a game whose sales are comparable to as is 40k as 'not the same' but clearly it sucks up a fair portion of the same finite hobby money
And obviously YMMV but in my recent experience all the X-Wing players at my gaming club previously played 40k, yes it's a tiny sample but the last local regional held for X-Wing pulled just smidge over 100 players and the local big annual 40k bash pulled mid-40's, again this could be just a local bias, but its telling, also of all of 40k's options, much like a CCG maybe 20% are actual competitive choices, X-Wing also has that issue to a degree but at a guess its nearer to 50%
I had no idea 40K players switched to X Wing, but it's interesting considering how vastly different the games are.
A fair number did, 40k's sales fall correlated pretty well with X-Wing's rise and I know a good number of people that play either both or that switched over.
As previously mentionned, I'm sure X Wing has major traction, I just don't think moving 5 spaceships over a flat mat is a reasonable comparison with assembling, painting and then moving 100 miniatures across a table with 3D terrain.
A lot of them aren't looking for the same exact experience, but rather something they can bring to a table and play with any random person and have a relatively even game involving miniatures, and get through a game in a reasonable amount of time, beyond that everything is details.
The fact that X-Wing was a fraction of the price to get into and easy to start also helped, particularly as a "well 40k kinda sucks right now, this is a cheap diversion, let's check it out while I take a break from 40k".
That said, there may also be something to the idea that X-Wing is something of a diversion for many while they wait for GW to sort their gak out and will return to 40k once it's playable, at least in part.
TheWaspinator wrote: Yeah, if you don't think X-Wing is a direct competitor, you really don't understand how many gamers think.
It's a sci-fi miniatures game that is a lot cheaper and easier to get into than 40K and has a much stronger IP backing.
That last part hit the nail on the head where X-wing is concerned, Star Wars IP is vastly more popular than 40k. Even non gamers buy xwing ships just becuase...star wars.
I'm pretty sure it'll hurt their competitors much like 4th ed. D&D hurt it's competitors....oh wait....yeah not hurt...invigorate. That's the word. Because so far the new rules kinda look simplistic and sucky like AoS. The new no template stuff is awful. I mean have you seen the battlecannon's stats. Guard are going to get hosed, horde armies, hosed, still not convinced the new flamer rules is that good. RUN IS STILL A FETHING THING AS IS OVERWATCH! GOD ****ING MOTHER****ING BULLMULARKY!
Ahem....no armor values because little Timmy can't do math anymore. A very stupid system where 'everything can hurt everything'
Also Plague Marines and Space Marines in the starter....-_-....Booooooooooo. Boooooooo I say. Oh and the new 'power level' thing is dumb as hell too.
Why is it so hard to see, that what would draw people back is clean up the special rules, and roll back EVERYTHING to 3rd. ed. Put a new coat of paint and boom you're done. Don't change a thing after that for about 5-7 years before the next edition.
The only competitor who needs to worry about 8th ed / New GW hurting them is one that built its business of the back of providing games that were 'not GW built as close as damnit' - for instance, bringing out a football Style board game when GW had stopped doing Blood Bowl, or a Necromunda style game, or a Warhammer Quest game perhaps....
TheWaspinator wrote: Yeah, if you don't think X-Wing is a direct competitor, you really don't understand how many gamers think.
It's a sci-fi miniatures game that is a lot cheaper and easier to get into than 40K and has a much stronger IP backing.
It's as much of a direct competitor as board games, CTG and video games. It's an alternative but it's not a competitor.
If it's an alternative, then it's competition. Your dudes are put on the board, you roll dice and you try to beat the other guy. They compete for the same people interested in the same kind of thing.you need to pull your head out of the sand
Fundamentally, your own argument is based on the premise that 8th is amazing. What happens if it's not 'all that, and a bag of chips'?
Chances are, some people who don't currently play and will like it and will come back, others who currently play, or don't will dislike it or will have no interest and won't. Gw is gw after all.
I doubt that the other main players in the industry - ffg, wyrd, warlord, corvus belli or privateer press will be negatively affected to any great or lesser extent.
I think overall the shift will be massively in favor of GW though, as ex-40k players have been "selling" other games for ages now and have pretty much convinced most of the available pool.
I doubt it. That pool is an ever shifting population - it is not finite. I'm sure there's plenty of The people currently playing 40k will burn out and will look for an alternative sooner or later. There will always be new people getting into the hobby, or looking to expand their gaming horizons, and there is no longer 'just gw' offering an entry way in.
With all that's been announced about 8th and the massive change in direction and execution by GW, I wouldn't be surprised if 40K doubles in revenue and active players within a year.
I'll quote you on this. We will see. Gw is making good noises recently but I seriously doubt a doubling in revenue is on the cards.
Those have to come from somewhere and it would only make sense that the games previously used as an escape from 40k would end up taking the biggest hit.
Maybe. An alternative is for the most part maybe they won't be interested, and the weight of 8th will fall on the same population already playing 40k, not on those who have moved on.
I'm keeping an open mind on this latest edition of 40k, and I won't pass judgement until I've actually played a game.
In saying that, I drifted away from GW games a few years back, and having enjoyed Bolt Action, FOW and Maelstrom's Edge since then, I see no reason to head back to GW.
And as for X-Wing, it's a good game, and because it's Star Wars, I know people who would laugh at people like us, rushing out to buy the Millennium Falcon because it's Star Wars.
It's hard for GW to compete with such a popular IP.
Just because people come back to play 8th, doesn't mean they are spending money on new models for it. If GW can build on the recent goodwill following their community-turnaround, then maybe they could start selling more to those who abandoned their products before.
I would think Mantic may have been counting on a little bleed-off for their Warpath game, which may not happen now, though I don't think there's anything stopping you using the same models for both systems.
At the end of the day, an encouraging GW is good for the whole industry, as their store presence and video game IP gives them an advantage in bringing fresh blood to wargaming.
TheWaspinator wrote: Yeah, if you don't think X-Wing is a direct competitor, you really don't understand how many gamers think.
It's a sci-fi miniatures game that is a lot cheaper and easier to get into than 40K and has a much stronger IP backing.
It's as much of a direct competitor as board games, CTG and video games. It's an alternative but it's not a competitor.
If it's an alternative, then it's competition. Your dudes are put on the board, you roll dice and you try to beat the other guy. They compete for the same people interested in the same kind of thing.you need to pull your head out of the sand
Fundamentally, your own argument is based on the premise that 8th is amazing. What happens if it's not 'all that, and a bag of chips'?
You keep your definition of competition, I'll keep mine, thanks.
My whole point is based on the premise that 8th is a lot better than 7th, something which is already quite clear in many ways, from GW actually facing their issues and fixing them, following 7th ed FAQ and the involvement of relevant community members, the alignment of their goals with the expectations of their customers etc.
While there may be a 3% chance that 8th is still a fuckup despite all these major improvements, the most likely outcome is that 8th will be significantly better and thus have a strong positive effect on GW's sales, which in turn will have an effect on the rest of the market. The only question that makes sense is: "what effect exactly?"
You keep your definition of competition, I'll keep mine, thanks.
Except yours is categorically wrong.
The only thing up for grabs is whether X Wing is considered a direct or indirect competitior in strict terms based on whether one deems X Wing "the same" as 40K.
They're both competing for the same money, it's just whether you prefer the tablets vs laptops analogy, or consider it more iPhone vs Samsung.
I'd expect a consultant businessman such as yourself to have a better grip on this stuff, tbh.
You keep your definition of competition, I'll keep mine, thanks.
Except yours is categorically wrong.
The only thing up for grabs is whether X Wing is considered a direct or indirect competitior in strict terms based on whether one deems X Wing "the same" as 40K.
They're both competing for the same money, it's just whether you prefer the tablets vs laptops analogy, or consider it more iPhone vs Samsung.
I'd expect a consultant businessman such as yourself to have a better grip on this stuff, tbh.
The chap believes that 40k has no competition and no amount of evidence will change that belief. Really, you'll be here all day talking in circles - it's been done before.
I'm aware, and had already resolved to largely disengage, but I'm also conscious of the fact that less informed onlookers may need the prospesterous arguments being offered highlighted as the shaky nonsense they are in case they get persuaded by their superficial plausibility.
Yeah, it's a competitor. I'd agree they're not the exact same type of game-large scale wargame as compared to small scale ship skirmish-but they're definitely competitors.
As for the OP's question... Well, let me put it this way. I recently started looking into Maelstrom's Edge, because I get the feeling 8th edition is gonna drive me away from 40k.
3% chance GW won't screw up 40k... I'll take the over bet, you would never get a job in vegas setting odds on horse races or sports bets. First rule in setting up odds, know what your taking about.
TheWaspinator wrote: Yeah, if you don't think X-Wing is a direct competitor, you really don't understand how many gamers think.
It's a sci-fi miniatures game that is a lot cheaper and easier to get into than 40K and has a much stronger IP backing.
It's as much of a direct competitor as board games, CTG and video games. It's an alternative but it's not a competitor.
If it's competing for the same segment of the market, it's a competitor. It may not be an equivalent game, but that's completely separate to whether or not it is a competitor.
X-wing's rival saw quite a few 40K players jump ship. We saw a similar thing back in 4th edition when Mechwarrior: Dark Age came on the scene... The fact that they're different styles of game was less relevant to a lot of players than the fact that they were good. Many players weren't looking for an equivalent experience, just a good ruleset.
I'm sure that 8th edition 40K will see some of those who left dip a toe back in to see how it's shaped up... but we have nowhere near enough information yet to establish whether or not it will actually be a good game. Or whether or not GW's current focus will last past the next 6-12 months... they have a long history of changing their direction, banging away for 6 months or a year or so and then changing their minds again at the drop of a hat.
Honestly, I think the thing that will have a bigger impact on 40K's competitors is simply the number of them that are out there now... It's easier than ever to get a game off the ground these days, but actually getting longevity out of it in such a crowded pool is hard.
I sincerely doubt that 8th will pry me away from X-Wing and that "expensive of expensives," Armada. Even though I have a massive Guard army... having to read, commit to memory and be able to quote rules verbatim for my gaming group is pretty much a killer with so many special rules. Or interpret what's supposed to be simple rules on cards. I trust even GW to be ambiguous about those. FFG can do it, why can't you, GW?
Here's an idea. What if GW is on the cusp of becoming that super-elaborate Napoleonics game that your uncle played in his basement. Very crunchy, but arcane.
I think it's very premature to speculate on this since we don't actually have the game out yet.
However: GW is not the company that crushes all competition in its path anymore. That cat is out the bag, and nothing GW does will put it back in. The market has fragmented with a lot of competitors. Some will do well, some will do poorly, some will go out of business for reasons having nothing to do with GW because, generally speaking, most game companies seem to die through mismanagement.
There's no reason that a GW customer can't be a non-GW customer as well. I don't think it's reasonable to think that everyone playing X-Wing will drop it and start playing 40K again. People can and will play both. Some will just play X-Wing because they want to play with X-Wings and Tie Fighters and have no interest in 40K's setting, let alone assembling and painting stuff. Others will play 40K and have no interest in X-Wing.
Repeat for Kings of War, WarPath, DeadZone, Warmachine, Hordes, FrostGrave, Song of Blades and Heroes, Dragon Rampant, Rogue Stars, Gates of Anteres, Bolt Action, Malifaux, et al. Once upon a time my local stores all had GW and pretty much nothing else. Now they carry choices.
More critical for GW than getting back old players who drifted away is getting new players. Success comes from expanding the customer base, since they're starting with nothing: no rules, no models, no accessories. The player who comes back with his 5th edition army and looks at the rules over his opponent's shoulder brings nothing to GW's bottom line.
Now that GW has pulled their head out of their ass and is making awesome rules and solid balance, I'm sure many leavers will come back and many new players will pick 40K.
How much do you think this will ruin the day of games like WMH which can't compete on models and only ever grew like weeds because GW wasn't tending their backyard.
First of all, the quality of the game is still supposition until it actually get a played. Even with all the previews to ramp up interest, it still looks like the same 40k we have been stuck with for forever. Ugoigo, etc. In this day and age, these are not revolutionary examples of game design. Its seems like they are just making 40k less bad than it was.
Gw deserve some credit, for sure. But until we see the final product, the exaltations for this newest edition might be better served by cautious optimism.
Secondly, privateer press are shooting themselves in the foot right now, so spillage into 40k from there is likely less to do with gw doing things 'right' and more to do with pp doing things 'wrong'. IMO of course.
Speaking only for myself, there is likely nothing that will bring me back to 40k since skirmish wargaming is where its at for me. I don't want to get back into buying a complete army and deal with the same issues rebranded and 'new and improved' again. I might buy 40k models to use in shadow war, or buy gw models for other systems, but until gw make a good squad based game design that isn't a throw back to their earliest failures, I'm content to sit on the sidelines and buy other products from gw as an ancillary consumer.
A lot of them aren't looking for the same exact experience, but rather something they can bring to a table and play with any random person and have a relatively even game involving miniatures, and get through a game in a reasonable amount of time, beyond that everything is details.
The fact that X-Wing was a fraction of the price to get into and easy to start also helped, particularly as a "well 40k kinda sucks right now, this is a cheap diversion, let's check it out while I take a break from 40k".
That said, there may also be something to the idea that X-Wing is something of a diversion for many while they wait for GW to sort their gak out and will return to 40k once it's playable, at least in part.
^^ This is pretty much my exact experience, except that having gotten into X-Wing now, it stopped being a diversion and became my "main" game. (Well, other than BFG, but that's almost never played these days). As much as I like what I'm seeing with the new direction of 40k (gameplay-wise anyway), it would still have to be pretty damn impressive to pry me away from X-Wing - though to be fair I probably will pick up the rules at some point, and play a few 8th Edition VASSAL games; it just won't be my primary TT game.
I'll dig out my old RT harlequins and will see how 8th plays, but my sci if playing group has all moved over to Antares as we prefer it. I don't think 8th is gonna suddenly change that, but we'll give it a go out of curiosity - using existing models we already own. I might even use my Algoryn instead of marines, as I've got them.
Good job bigging up GW whilst dimissing other games in the opening post too. Good advocacy.
Yeah, count me as one of those who gave up playing 40K to indulge in buying/playing X-Wing (and Armada).
I don't think GW has pulled so great a play as several competitors have lately shot themselves in the foot. Privateer Press and their problems rolling out their latest version. Dust nuking itself from orbit with KS problems. Flames of War and the luke-warm reaction to the new edition. Even X-Wing seems to be examining the bottom of the barrel for new ships of late.
However, I think the excitement over 40K will be very short-lived. Give GW six months, and we'll be back in the same situation as before, with OP armies, bloat on the way and model kits that are more expensive rehashes of what we already have. And a few boxed games bought for the models, not the rules.
Stormonu wrote: Yeah, count me as one of those who gave up playing 40K to indulge in buying/playing X-Wing (and Armada).
I don't think GW has pulled so great a play as several competitors have lately shot themselves in the foot. Privateer Press and their problems rolling out their latest version. Dust nuking itself from orbit with KS problems. Flames of War and the luke-warm reaction to the new edition. Even X-Wing seems to be examining the bottom of the barrel for new ships of late.
However, I think the excitement over 40K will be very short-lived. Give GW six months, and we'll be back in the same situation as before, with OP armies, bloat on the way and model kits that are more expensive rehashes of what we already have. And a few boxed games bought for the models, not the rules.
AoS is now coming up for two years old, and that's largely avoided 'no-brainer' armies and composition. So 40kshould follow suit, especially as they're confirmed open to ongoing rules tweaks, and updating unit rules where needed.
As a supporter of "Article 50 GW" I don't every really see myself going back.
I do not need to. Thanks to their stagnation and nuking of Specialist games it forced me out of the GW bubble and I have no desire to go back to it. I have seen a larger world now and I can not "unsee" it.
Stormonu wrote: Yeah, count me as one of those who gave up playing 40K to indulge in buying/playing X-Wing (and Armada).
I don't think GW has pulled so great a play as several competitors have lately shot themselves in the foot. Privateer Press and their problems rolling out their latest version. Dust nuking itself from orbit with KS problems. Flames of War and the luke-warm reaction to the new edition. Even X-Wing seems to be examining the bottom of the barrel for new ships of late.
However, I think the excitement over 40K will be very short-lived. Give GW six months, and we'll be back in the same situation as before, with OP armies, bloat on the way and model kits that are more expensive rehashes of what we already have. And a few boxed games bought for the models, not the rules.
AoS is now coming up for two years old, and that's largely avoided 'no-brainer' armies and composition. So 40kshould follow suit, especially as they're confirmed open to ongoing rules tweaks, and updating unit rules where needed.
I alway advise my trainees to never use the word "should" as it's a guarantee that someone will cock something up and we'll have to fix it.
morgoth wrote: I had no idea 40K players switched to X Wing, but it's interesting considering how vastly different the games are.
As previously mentionned, I'm sure X Wing has major traction, I just don't think moving 5 spaceships over a flat mat is a reasonable comparison with assembling, painting and then moving 100 miniatures across a table with 3D terrain.
X wing is dramatically larger than 40k in my area - each store has a league, events Xwing night is 20-3 players. Warmachine is larger than 40k and they pull in 6-8 players on their weekly night of gaming.
Then, to be blunt, you're so hopelessly unaware of the market you've essentially disqualified yourself from being able to have any sort of informed discussion about it.
The OP of this thread alone wasn't enough for that?
Now that GW has pulled their head out of their ass and is making awesome rules and solid balance, I'm sure many leavers will come back and many new players will pick 40K.
I expect that 8th ed will be balanced about as well as AoS is now, which is alright, but only that. I strongly doubt the balance will hold up to the pressure a competitive scene will put on it (they will though ).
GW has seemed to realise that they don't need to appeal to everyone with everything and chosen a target market to go with what they want their games to be (not sure which is the chicken and which the egg here). That market appears to be a more casual (maybe naritive inclined) type of player who likes epic models and killing stuff more than other aspects.
I am not sure how anyone could enjoy x wing or battle fleet thingy. Just ships moving around no character no soul. I need a character that I care about or for.
Even in the case of skaven it was a slave, the idea of ship B shoot ship A never attracted me. Then for actual history miniatures, they are boring as old hell they all look the same with different paint scheme.
I tried Warhords or what ever, really wasn't my game. It seemed like it was to early in its life for me. The miniatures the materiel the lore all seemed really new and fan fiction rather then a setting.
And of course 8th ed still doesn't solve one issue GW games have: Startup cost. When standard game size requires hundreds of euro's(and looks like GW will be pushing for 2k with scale roughly same as now...) that is quite a lot. Even for working people one starts to wonder is that really worth it or would you rather have army/warband/group for multiple games for same price. Especially with ever changing game where you basically end up having to update your army regularly to keep up.
OgreChubbs wrote: Then for actual history miniatures, they are boring as old hell they all look the same with different paint scheme.
Care to explain how this is different from space marines, which are all the same with different paint schemes?
I refer you to how Dr Azreal13's earlier diagnosed the fervent 40k's frothers ability to regard things as exactly the same and totally different at the same time
And whilst historical gaming isn't my cup of tea I really admire that in 35 odds years of gaming I've never seen an unpainted model in a historical game
KingmanHighborn wrote: I'm pretty sure it'll hurt their competitors much like 4th ed. D&D hurt it's competitors....oh wait....yeah not hurt...invigorate. That's the word. Because so far the new rules kinda look simplistic and sucky like AoS. The new no template stuff is awful. I mean have you seen the battlecannon's stats. Guard are going to get hosed, horde armies, hosed, still not convinced the new flamer rules is that good. RUN IS STILL A FETHING THING AS IS OVERWATCH! GOD ****ING MOTHER****ING BULLMULARKY!
Ahem....no armor values because little Timmy can't do math anymore. A very stupid system where 'everything can hurt everything'
Also Plague Marines and Space Marines in the starter....-_-....Booooooooooo. Boooooooo I say. Oh and the new 'power level' thing is dumb as hell too.
Why is it so hard to see, that what would draw people back is clean up the special rules, and roll back EVERYTHING to 3rd. ed. Put a new coat of paint and boom you're done. Don't change a thing after that for about 5-7 years before the next edition.
And a bunch of games do have run moves. In fact this is far better because you only have to move ONE time your minis. And plague marines are something people have wanted for many years.
The plague marine thing is just personal aesthetics. But I despise the run mechanic if it wasn't random, it wouldn't be too bad, but I hate it with a passion. But then again I hate random charges and overwatch too.
Ignoring both people's fanboi-reactions and short-sighted AoS-bitching, the "hurt" will really only apply to those games that are direct competitors and those who wish to be so.
To wit: 40k in 6th and 7th edition is in a really bad place right now. A horrible, bloated, complicated (as opposed to complex) ruleset with too many exceptions, and exceptions to those exceptions. It needs to go, and as it happens right now, ripping the band-aid right off and rebooting the whole thing is the best way to go about it. Naturally, some people will dislike the changes, ragequit, sell their armies or even post mildly idiotic videos on YouTube of them immolating their armies (or perhaps themselves with them, accidentally). I think those people will be more than be made up for new players and returning players - particularly if they add a lower bar to entry by following part of the AoS model - something like having the Dataslates for models available for free on the website along with the rules as either an inexpensive purchase or free PDF. The AoS release was so badly handled. Silly rules (ignoring bases), no points... I could go on, but we all know the story here. GW has clearly learned a lot from the way that they did that, and with them now demonstrating a capacity to learn, involve the community in playtesting (first time for everything!) and a CEO who isn't arrogant and contemptuous towards his customers I don't see them making the same mistakes, and actively seeking to avoid the worst and harness the best of the current state of AoS with streamlined rules and more straightforward gameplay overall. Doesn't mean it'll be perfect, and I'm sure they'll have missteps, but balancing everything from scratch and a GHB-model to points allows them to modify and re-balance models and units more dynamically, rather than codices being set in stone until the next go-round of the power spiral of codex releases...
The games that will be hurt would be games like (as mentioned earlier) Gates of Antares, Maelstrom's Edge and particularly - Mantic's WarPath & Firefight. If 40k is no longer a clusterfeth with bad rules, you no longer need an alternative to 40k.
On the other hand - and especially long-term - a renewed 40k stands to benefit pretty much everybody. Pretty much all of the historical games I know and of my vintage started with Fantasy and/or 40k. If you like Historical gaming like Bolt Action, or SAGA, or Crossfire, or Hail Caesar et al, then playing 40k doesn't scratch that same itch. and it's entirely possible to keep armies for and play both. The same applies to the various Fantasy or sci-fi skirmish games - Malifaux, Dark Age, TINAT, Frostgrave, etc are a very different experience to 40k in both style and scope - not to mention model commitment. So 40k doesn't directly compete with those, but it does bring in new gamers - many of which over time will be exposed to these other games and add to the overall pool of Miniatures Gamers across the board.
You and your words and sensigle analysis. Pfft I say.
One thing that hurt Warpath in the past was Warpath itself. It was simple, but very clunky. Close combat was a weird ballet of indecision. You can quote me on that.
Turnip Jedi: Good point in regards to historical players' attention to detail and desire to present a unified look. We had a Quaterly kit 2 weeks ago during a Warmachine night and a)the other players though it was 40K so they kept asking me if I still understood everything and b)nary a painted or primed figure in sight.
If I can purchase the rules at a decent price, and I can get my unit profiles easily, then I'll at least keep an open mind.
I stopped playing 40k around the time they started releasing expensive, hardbound supplements to codexes. That, combined with the Tau (right before the wraithknight came out) was enough to kill my urge. 40k is one of my favorite settings, but GW was vomiting out rules at a very fast pace with very high prices.
I think Firefight has better rules than 40k. Even the tidbits of 8th, I think Firefight is better.
However, the mythology of the Eldar Gods, the C'tan, the Chaos Gods.... that's what sucks me in.
I plan on coming back with 8th. Streamlined and less expensive rules is exactly what I was looking for.
Now that GW has pulled their head out of their ass and is making awesome rules and solid balance, I'm sure many leavers will come back and many new players will pick 40K.
If you ask me, the new edition will be a total mess with loop holes, gaps, OP and underwhelming units/models.
I see no reason why GW should make a better rule set than the editions before.
To be honest, Warhammer 40K is a fall back game for when I want something a little more lighthearted. I consider myself mostly a historical miniatures wargamer even if it is more arcade style historicals.
As the weather improves and the garage becomes comfortable gaming place, I plan on getting in more World War II, maybe even a few AWI games, and a whole lot less 40K even with 8th edition around the corner.
Putting the specific question of 40k 8e aside, I think a suddenly likable, responsive GW making a variety of quality product types that mutually reinforce one another means companies like PP have a lot less room to feth up.
Manchu wrote: Putting the specific question of 40k 8e aside, I think a suddenly likable, responsive GW making a variety of quality product types that mutually reinforce one another means companies like PP have a lot less room to feth up.
Their attitude towards online and brick and mortar stores has a lot to do with things too. GW having better relationships with them will help. I do know that most of my local FLGS are not going to start carrying any GW even with 8th, that could make it fail here as much as AoS did.
I'm sure that people in your local area know how to use online stores to purchase goods. Your local stores almost undoubtedly make more money from CCGs, but if there's demand for a product and they're not even attempting to meet it, it's simply turnover they're not making.
Now that GW has pulled their head out of their ass and is making awesome rules and solid balance, I'm sure many leavers will come back and many new players will pick 40K.
If you ask me, the new edition will be a total mess with loop holes, gaps, OP and underwhelming units/models.
I see no reason why GW should make a better rule set than the editions before.
They've been playtesting the gak out of it for a year, including with external bodies such as tournament peoples. I am more optimistic for this forthcoming edition than I have been in many, many years. Of course, you're under no obligation to change from 7th, or start playing 40k (or whatever) either way.
As someone who quit 40k when 6e hit. I have been looking at this release optimistically My biggest issue is the cost of buying back into the system (as I sold all of my GW stuff back then). I look at the website and figure that I'd be in for at least $600 if not $1000 and that's a huge chunk of money to drop on plastic crack.
I hope that GW does well with this release. More games being played in the stores is good for everyone. A vibrant GW scene at the games store is always welcome. It won't make people leave other games (for the most part), but heck, if the stores make more money, it helps us keep our places to play.
As to OP, It's not going to hurt the competition. PP has been around for 10+ years. Infinity is solid. Kickstarted mini games are still raking in cash. People have seen the options out there, and they are pretty good. Board Games are booming. It's a great time to be a gamer!
Now that GW has pulled their head out of their ass and is making awesome rules and solid balance, I'm sure many leavers will come back and many new players will pick 40K.
How much do you think this will ruin the day of games like WMH which can't compete on models and only ever grew like weeds because GW wasn't tending their backyard.
I personally think they're going to see a solid drop around the launch and then a continuous loss of popularity as even the most entrenched 40k haters go back to the miniatures they truly love.
It's less clear that it would affect micro games like x wing though but they're not in the same category imo, that's more BFG.
I think they have to do something about their big prices, that's what cause the reject for most of people i think, and that's why we don't get new players that much.
But the simplification of rules will clearly help to keep people in the game.
But the simplification of rules will clearly help to keep people in the game.
I don't thinks that we will see a simplification of the rules and balance of the whole system.
My conjecture is that balancing a table top game is an NP-hard problem. So with large number of models, units, and rules, balancing is not attainable.
But the simplification of rules will clearly help to keep people in the game.
I don't thinks that we will see a simplification of the rules and balance of the whole system.
My conjecture is that balancing a table top game is an NP-hard problem. So with large number of models, units, and rules, balancing is not attainable.
I disagree because a game like Warmahordes (the only real example I'm familiar with) has a lot more actual interactions than 40k, and with some exceptions tends to be fairly close in balance (there are still imbalances, of course, but they aren't nearly as bad as you found in 7th edition 40k). The issue is that 40k focuses on minutiae, e.g. a ton of tiny little things, so it's more bloat than synergy and interaction.
GW has a lot of problems that a fix on a badly aging system won't address. Historically, 40k has seen incremental changes, but relies on a fundamentally dated model. This hasn't been a primary concern as GW's primary focus is model sales and the rules are merely a vehicle to push those sales. Overpriced rulebooks requiring numerous army codex supplements, a large price of entry, and the work needed for assembly/painting/etc. are all tremendous barriers to entry. In the meantime, numerous other companies has stepped in.
With AOS, GW showed that they understood that a bloated, clunky game that required a large number of models was costing them sales. A stripped down, quick playing ruleset with a more free form force approach was coupled with new model aesthetics to push it out of the generic fantasy mold, and it seems to be working.
40k seems to be addressing mechanics that only matter to existing players. Fixing shooting targeting rules or messing with grenades doesn't really address the problem that 40k is still a stodgy IGOUGO model that requires way to much for a light game, but not sound enough to be a "serious" simulation (and that is a pretty narrow niche of gaming anyway). It really needs to be stripped down ala AoS (despite the gnashing and wailing by grognards) and encourage mixing factions, playing lower model games, etc. If they do this, I expect they will see an increase in sales (though doubling is laughably unrealistic). If not, their improved and expanded kits will likely retain players, but not be a big driver of expansion. Remember always that GW is a model selling company and the rules are, at best, secondary.
From a financial perspective, trying to get back old players is unlikely a sound strategy. Players who already have a bunch of models aren't the target and many who quit have moved on to other games. The new models are as likely to get some back as anything. The rules need to be approachable for new players.
One of GW's big challenges is that, as the big kid on the block, they have significant costs compared to smaller companies and are generally less nimble and responsive to changes. So they have to find ways to keep primary revenue streams while also seeking new ones and expanding existing streams. Given that the miniature market has faced profound changes (much like other retail chains), this can present quite a challenge. GW has stumbled with handling internet sales, and as brick and mortars continue to falter, it's whole model is at risk. While games like X-Wing can flourish in other retailers and find outlets in non-niche stores, GW is stuck with a small number of hobby outlets and narrows it with restrictive terms. So even if GW's new attitude helps with it's pool of retailers, it is still a small pool with limited consumer access.
In terms of IP, GW also has the challenge that it's products are traditionally highly derivative of other sources. Now that top tier IPs like Star Wars, Star Wars, LoTR, etc. are fully exploiting the market, GW has to make itself attractive. AoS showed they understand this and are heavily pushing their revamped imaging of the WH world. 40k, likewise, seems to be leaning towards its more unique elements and getting away from its more obvious references. Licensing has also been flourishing, though it seems like the quality of some licensed products may be dropping, which could damage the value going forward.
The competition will continue to exist if only because for some crazy reason GW continues to sell single models for what we were paying for Battleforces/Battalions not too long ago. Wait, it's because the loyalists will pay whatever is asked. Granted, every loyalist has a budget breaking point, and you aren't going to get the diehards from old to suddenly place 3X the intrinsic value on the game. Oldhammer and Classichammer exist for a reason. Pricing people out will stop sales to even the older systems, I don't think the competition has anything to worry about there.
Quality of product. Bugbear. There are model makers who are the peers or even superior the the Church of Citadel's model makers. Personal preference is NOT empirical data when it comes to aesthetic.
Some people moved on because of the rules themselves. IGOUGO has SEVERAL detractors, and those people won't come back unless EVERY other option is crushed. Even then, if someone hates IGOUGO, there is always console gaming. That's the real time that people are hankering for, and no table ruleset will ever get it down. I personally think that IGOUGO isn't going to get crushed at all. Remember Warzone? Remember how a very vocal group was swearing up and down that its revolutionary rule system was going to dethrone GW? I'm still waiting on that.
In short, I don't see much changing. If anything, there may yet be more players bled off by some of the 8th Ed. changes.
As an Australian I don't see myself going back until they fix their pricing over here. It's the same every single time I go into the FLGS.
I'll pick up their latest 40k release for whatever army my friend owns, and show him the box with my finger over the price sticker. He compliments the model, then I move my finger, and the expletives start pouring out.
Even if their rules get better, I doubt anyone at least in my group would ever pick up new miniatures. They might, as said earlier, dig their old stuff out to give it a try, but the models are just woefully expensive here compared to the competition.
KingmanHighborn wrote: I'm pretty sure it'll hurt their competitors much like 4th ed. D&D hurt it's competitors....oh wait....yeah not hurt...invigorate. That's the word. Because so far the new rules kinda look simplistic and sucky like AoS. The new no template stuff is awful. I mean have you seen the battlecannon's stats. Guard are going to get hosed, horde armies, hosed, still not convinced the new flamer rules is that good. RUN IS STILL A FETHING THING AS IS OVERWATCH! GOD ****ING MOTHER****ING BULLMULARKY!
Ahem....no armor values because little Timmy can't do math anymore. A very stupid system where 'everything can hurt everything'
Also Plague Marines and Space Marines in the starter....-_-....Booooooooooo. Boooooooo I say. Oh and the new 'power level' thing is dumb as hell too.
Why is it so hard to see, that what would draw people back is clean up the special rules, and roll back EVERYTHING to 3rd. ed. Put a new coat of paint and boom you're done. Don't change a thing after that for about 5-7 years before the next edition.
That in red is what I've been screaming about since 5th Ed. dropped. The big issue is there shouldn't NEED TO BE a new edition. Get it right the first time, play test any expansions, then spend all that R&D on advertising instead, and the money prints itself. It can't be that expensive to have a hot game of 40K show up on Big Bang Theory, or to do a tourney on ESPN like they used to do with M:TG
I appear to have put Morgoth on my Ignore list a long time ago and forgot about it. This thread reminds me why.
Now that GW has pulled their head out of their ass and is making awesome rules and solid balance, I'm sure many leavers will come back and many new players will pick 40K.
The new edition isn't even out yet and yet you're pre-emptively declaring the rules and balance to be "awesome"?
How much do you think this will ruin the day of games like WMH which can't compete on models and only ever grew like weeds because GW wasn't tending their backyard.
Thats your opinion. GW make some of the best miniatures in the world, not the best.
I personally think they're going to see a solid drop around the launch and then a continuous loss of popularity as even the most entrenched 40k haters go back to the miniatures they truly love.
Speak for yourself. I've always liked Lord of the Rings miniatures better than the hideously proportioned and oversized Warhammer Fantasy and 40K heroic scale miniatures, both before and after I started playing 40K back in 5th Ed. Lord of the Rings and Hobbit miniatures, and other more anatomically realistic miniature ranges are the "miniatures that I truly love".
8th Ed. may indeed increase the likelihood that I will one day play 40K again. But the thing is, now it'll just be one of many games that I play. 40K now competes for my attention and my wallet with LOTR/Hobbit SBG, This is Not a Test (Fallout), SAGA, Zombicide and Dungeons and Dragons.
So we're starting with the premise that the new rules are awesome? It's too early to say they're bad, isn't it too early to say they're good? To answer the OP, how much 40k will hurt the competition will depend on how good it is and how expensive it is. It probably will draw in returning players who will spend a bit, but if it turns out to be more of the same those people probably won't stay long. Basically the same as with every new edition.
Azazelx wrote:They've been playtesting the gak out of it for a year, including with external bodies such as tournament peoples. I am more optimistic for this forthcoming edition than I have been in many, many years. Of course, you're under no obligation to change from 7th, or start playing 40k (or whatever) either way.
I would be optimistic if this hadn't been done in the past to varying degrees. Yes, playtesting is important, that's step 1. Step 2 is changing the rules to incorporate feedback, and that's where gw traditionally fails. Having the entire world playtesting the game is of no value if they don't fix the issues that get discovered. Will they do it this time?
-Loki- wrote:As an Australian I don't see myself going back until they fix their pricing over here. It's the same every single time I go into the FLGS.
I'll pick up their latest 40k release for whatever army my friend owns, and show him the box with my finger over the price sticker. He compliments the model, then I move my finger, and the expletives start pouring out.
Even if their rules get better, I doubt anyone at least in my group would ever pick up new miniatures. They might, as said earlier, dig their old stuff out to give it a try, but the models are just woefully expensive here compared to the competition.
Pricing will always remain an issue. I recently showed a friend the gw website/40k game to gauge his interest as a new game we could play (we play card games, chess, etc). He liked the models, but when he saw the prices he said you'd have to really love the game to pay that. We haven't spoken of it since, but yeah the rules would have to be very amazing at this point to make up for the prices. And that's assuming the prices don't keep rising like they always do. 2 start collecting boxes just to see if we're interested will run just shy of $300. Compared to the other games/activities we could do for that money, i just don't see it.
From what we've seen, 8th Ed may have cracked the various issues 40k has/had.
With transports being less prone to one-shot destruction or immobilisation, you can get your troops from A-B in greater safety.
Close Combat? Well, shooting has been boosted a bit, and Flamers are downright deadly for Overwatch, so it's arguable that from there Combat remains a weaker option.
But....as vehicles can now charge, if your transporting your combat troops, it seems possible (until more info is known) that their transport can disgorge them, then lead the charge to try to soak up Overwatch.
Then, there's the option that if stuck in combat with your horde, you can envelop other, unengaged units - denying them Overwatch.
Add in that you can now consolidate into combat, and the disparity may well have been addressed - though whether one phase proves deadlier overall we won't know for a while.
Vehicles and Monstrous Creatures seem to be on par with each other now, which is a welcome change.
Alpha Strike deepstriking has been curtailed somewhat, given you need to aim (no word on scattering though, possibly done away with?) 9"+ away from enemy units. So cautious deployment can severely restrict where deepstrikers and equivalent can turn up (and a 9" bubble is quIte far reaching)
Then comes the demise of Formations. Yes, we get new FoC, but the days of FREE STUFF BECAUSE REASONS are done and dusted, which is nice. Deathstars likewise have been toned down (though given how keywords work in AoS, it'll still be possible to have similar synergy)
Now, any regaining ground needs to be sustained. I suspect we'll see a decent amount of those who departed during 6th and 7th Ed at least curious enough to give this reworking a try. And I dare say more than a few will stick around. But, if the benefits of redoing all the armies for release are eroded by shonky codecies following, it'll be harder to keep them. Only if they keep things under closer parity then word will spread quickly, and more gamers will be tempted to try it out.
It's no Magic Bullet type thing, but it might develop into one.
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: Has it cracked the problem with inflated armies and over expensive miniatures?
This for me is the biggest issue. I didn't stop playing 40K because of the rules, but because they priced me out of the game. The books were completely not worth the price, the models even less so. How is GW going to double its revenue if people still don't buy the product in the first place. I've seen nothing that would compel anyone to run out and buy an entire new army. Especially since your going to want to cut your teeth on new rules with all the older models that you already own that are in theory all viable to use.
I also suspect that GW will quickly fall into older habits and the next big model that they want to sell will have rules that somehow make it more desirable to field. Now add in a revised faction and I can see the bloat once again beging to creep up. I strongly suspect 8th edition will only be considered balanced (or at least as balanced as any new edition could be) for two years at the most. At the end of the second year, there will be an obvious power curve.
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: Has it cracked the problem with inflated armies and over expensive miniatures?
This for me is the biggest issue. I didn't stop playing 40K because of the rules, but because they priced me out of the game. The books were completely not worth the price, the models even less so. How is GW going to double its revenue if people still don't buy the product in the first place. I've seen nothing that would compel anyone to run out and buy an entire new army. Especially since your going to want to cut your teeth on new rules with all the older models that you already own that are in theory all viable to use.
I also suspect that GW will quickly fall into older habits and the next big model that they want to sell will have rules that somehow make it more desirable to field. Now add in a revised faction and I can see the bloat once again beging to creep up. I strongly suspect 8th edition will only be considered balanced (or at least as balanced as any new edition could be) for two years at the most. At the end of the second year, there will be an obvious power curve.
100% agree. If the rules are free then I can at least give them a go with old models I have laying around, whilst continuing to buy for other games I play.
Rules will creep into the same cycle again. It's why it's a cycle
Byte wrote: Not sure all this talk of xwing but its far from balanced. Literally whats the next broken combo cut and paste. Fun?
Of course X-Wing has it's issues, but FFG do tend to FAQ / Errata the worst offenders, maybe sometimes not as fast as players would like, but even Emperor Palpatine or Jumpmasters are minor offenders compared to Riptides, Wraithknights and 2++ re-rollables
I want 8th to be good and hopefully GW will be swinging the nerf bat to keep things in check, that they've reached out to big tournament organizers is a positive as I feel a big issue for 40k was the large gap between how GW assumed the game was played and how it was actually played
auticus wrote: The difference between xwing and 40k is that in xwing the broken stuff changes more frequently. In 40k you wait years.
Both games are still easily abused and busted. Same with warmachine.
As to pricing... polls often average out at about people not wanting to go more than $200 for a playable force, to include rulebooks etc.
40k will never fit in that mold unless tournament 40k moves to 500 points. Which may not be a bad thing for it to do.
Plus, to get the latest power list for X-wing, even tracking down all of the physical cards, you will likely be looking at $200, less if, say, you already had a couple A-wings to give you deadeye.
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: Has it cracked the problem with inflated armies and over expensive miniatures?
You assume that is a bug. It is a feature.
The rules only exist to move models, full stop. Games workshop is in the business of selling models. Resources only go to rules to the degree that it helps sell more models and they have made it abundantly clear that they believe a significant portion of sales are due to collectors who could couldn't care less about game rules.
auticus wrote: The difference between xwing and 40k is that in xwing the broken stuff changes more frequently. In 40k you wait years.
Both games are still easily abused and busted. Same with warmachine.
As to pricing... polls often average out at about people not wanting to go more than $200 for a playable force, to include rulebooks etc.
40k will never fit in that mold unless tournament 40k moves to 500 points. Which may not be a bad thing for it to do.
Plus, to get the latest power list for X-wing, even tracking down all of the physical cards, you will likely be looking at $200, less if, say, you already had a couple A-wings to give you deadeye.
True, but also depends entirely upon your usual opponents.
X-Wing can be shockingly expensive given its scale if your usual games insist on you having a copy of each card you wish to use. But for less formal approaches it's common for 'just note it down and have a pic of it'
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: Has it cracked the problem with inflated armies and over expensive miniatures?
You assume that is a bug. It is a feature.
The rules only exist to move models, full stop. Games workshop is in the business of selling models. Resources only go to rules to the degree that it helps sell more models and they have made it abundantly clear that they believe a significant portion of sales are due to collectors who could couldn't care less about game rules.
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: Has it cracked the problem with inflated armies and over expensive miniatures?
You assume that is a bug. It is a feature.
The rules only exist to move models, full stop. Games workshop is in the business of selling models. Resources only go to rules to the degree that it helps sell more models and they have made it abundantly clear that they believe a significant portion of sales are due to collectors who could couldn't care less about game rules.
Having into account the financial results after years and years of that mentality, and how it has recover after that mentality has changed, I think it doesn't longer apply here.
jmurph wrote: . Resources only go to rules to the degree that it helps sell more models and they have made it abundantly clear that they believe a significant portion of sales are due to collectors who could couldn't care less about game rules.
I'm fairly sure that this is oldGW mindset, and that things have started to change in this regard over the last couple of years. Games Workshop has practically reinvented itself in terms of community outreach, answering FAQ's, showing games at Warhammer World on Twitch, showing off teasers for new product, etc. It's not the same GW from 2010 or even 2014.
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: Has it cracked the problem with inflated armies and over expensive miniatures?
You assume that is a bug. It is a feature.
The rules only exist to move models, full stop. Games workshop is in the business of selling models. Resources only go to rules to the degree that it helps sell more models and they have made it abundantly clear that they believe a significant portion of sales are due to collectors who could couldn't care less about game rules.
That's true from GW's point of view but how is it good for the consumer? What if that doesn't lead to more sales? Will they just throw up their hands in defeat, destroy the whole system, and try something new?
Some people already used "low sales" as the reason for the WHFB -> AOS change, as if GW isn't the the one with the most power to influence the conditions that lead to higher/lower sales.
Henry wrote: So.... games that are made by manufacturers other than GW. Why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel?
Accusing other manufacturers of uninspiring back ground and miniatures, as though GW are the height of creativity? Do me a favour.
Other manufacturers can't match GW on models and are weeds? GW models are for the most part abhorrent. Their CAD designed stuff is woeful. Other companies aren't weeds, they are the fresh blood that filled the space left by the diseased old rot that was GW.
There may be some people who go back to GW. Their current path is promising and is a relief after over a decade of stagnation, lack of inspiration and mismanagement. I really do hope the 'new' GW is a success and continues to put out good games. But a lot of the 'haters' came to recognise GW for what it was and it'll take quite a bit more to bring them back. I'm not saying it won't happen, but 8th by itself is not going to be the great turn around. It may be the start.
It would help if GW started producing miniatures that were of decent quality, at the moment they simply can't match the good manufacturers out there.
What this guy said.
As someone who plays FFG games, Hawk Wargames, and a few others, this just means 40k has earned some of my time. Now they have to keep it.
Just Tony wrote: That in red is what I've been screaming about since 5th Ed. dropped. The big issue is there shouldn't NEED TO BE a new edition. Get it right the first time, play test any expansions, then spend all that R&D on advertising instead, and the money prints itself. It can't be that expensive to have a hot game of 40K show up on Big Bang Theory, or to do a tourney on ESPN like they used to do with M:TG
How many big games you know that don't release new editions? Even WM/Hordes and Flames of War keep releasing new editions.
Actually how many products period you keep seeing same version forever? Don't remember much except novels.
Just Tony wrote: That in red is what I've been screaming about since 5th Ed. dropped. The big issue is there shouldn't NEED TO BE a new edition. Get it right the first time, play test any expansions, then spend all that R&D on advertising instead, and the money prints itself. It can't be that expensive to have a hot game of 40K show up on Big Bang Theory, or to do a tourney on ESPN like they used to do with M:TG
How many big games you know that don't release new editions? Even WM/Hordes and Flames of War keep releasing new editions.
Actually how many products period you keep seeing same version forever? Don't remember much except novels.
GW does tend to rattle through the editions quickly compared to other games. Revision as a sales driver rather than for genuinely updating the game.
Just Tony wrote: That in red is what I've been screaming about since 5th Ed. dropped. The big issue is there shouldn't NEED TO BE a new edition. Get it right the first time, play test any expansions, then spend all that R&D on advertising instead, and the money prints itself. It can't be that expensive to have a hot game of 40K show up on Big Bang Theory, or to do a tourney on ESPN like they used to do with M:TG
How many big games you know that don't release new editions? Even WM/Hordes and Flames of War keep releasing new editions.
Actually how many products period you keep seeing same version forever? Don't remember much except novels.
GW does tend to rattle through the editions quickly compared to other games. Revision as a sales driver rather than for genuinely updating the game.
This guy gets it. Yeah, I'm thinking Axis and Allies right off the bat. How many rules changes did it go through? Look it up, I'll wait.
My issue is that when you have the same damn game go a decade on one edition, and in the same amount of time you see three editions? You can't even ATTEMPT to justify it as anything other than a cash grab, especially when each edition change is a paradigm shift that forces another unit type to be better than the others were in the previous edition ie. short sale of high volumes of models.
I like how there seems to be a significant (minority?) amount of people who are assuming GW all of a sudden has it all figured out because they made a facebook page. These are the same people who ran WFB into the ground, totally bothched the launch of AoS, and have proven over and over again with 40K that they really don't get it.
As I love my 40K models and the setting, I'm willing to give it a chance despite it being based on a below average rules framework that is AoS, but why on earth would I suddenly take their marketing speech as reality without any actual track record?
At best, I think it's a safe bet that if you adore AoS, you'll like the new 40K as it seems to be essentially the same game with a few changes to account for more guns.
Besides, even if it IS great, it's not like i"m all of a sudden going to stop playing X-Wing, Runewars, Bolt Action, etc... which are also great games? It just means my money and time gets spread around a little more.
The departure of Kirby (and Merrett) is significant.
The actions of Rountree, having taken over relatively recently can already been seen. Bundling, points in AoS, community outreach. If you've worked in any medium-sized organisation, you'll know that the perspectives and desires of the person at the top have a real impact throughout the organisation, particularly if that person is proactive and has a vision that they want for the company.
Kirby definitely had a vision for GW, but as a consumer, I strongly prefer Rountree's one...
Azazelx wrote: The departure of Kirby (and Merrett) is significant.
The actions of Rountree, having taken over relatively recently can already been seen. Bundling, points in AoS, community outreach. If you've worked in any medium-sized organisation, you'll know that the perspectives and desires of the person at the top have a real impact throughout the organisation, particularly if that person is proactive and has a vision that they want for the company.
Kirby definitely had a vision for GW, but as a consumer, I strongly prefer Rountree's one...
-Loki- wrote: As an Australian I don't see myself going back until they fix their pricing over here. It's the same every single time I go into the FLGS.
I'll pick up their latest 40k release for whatever army my friend owns, and show him the box with my finger over the price sticker. He compliments the model, then I move my finger, and the expletives start pouring out.
Even if their rules get better, I doubt anyone at least in my group would ever pick up new miniatures. They might, as said earlier, dig their old stuff out to give it a try, but the models are just woefully expensive here compared to the competition.
This, i have been looking as 8th stuff has unfolded if there was interest. Geting a army ready for 8th is a small fortune, With just the start costing more than my new Warmachine army, 400$ is the starting point and its probably half assed supported.
GW has many bad things. Thats for sure. They have many grey movements, thats for sure too. They want money just as they have always do, but I'm more willing to give money to a company if they at least hide that behind a good customer service, reasonable pricing to a good product, and interaction with their community.
To people claiming that GW is exactly the same with Roundtree as with Kirbys regime, or the "Smoke and mirrors"...
Make of this what you want to believe.
I play more non GW stuff than GW stuff. So for me, GW going strong again can only be a good thing. In the past years I have seen others companys entering the GW route, if GW goes back to their tracks, probably that will be a call of attention. Competition is good to the customer.
The problem with share prices is they're not always indicative of how well a company is doing. Enron is my go-to example of a company that was doing well by shares, only to collapse one day because things weren't going so well in reality.
Torga_DW wrote: The problem with share prices is they're not always indicative of how well a company is doing. Enron is my go-to example of a company that was doing well by shares, only to collapse one day because things weren't going so well in reality.
Also, remember that GW is a small company and most of their shares are owned by large banks. So their stock value is likely based primarily on the superficial numbers in their financial reports, and the more detailed analysis of GW's business choices is something that takes way more work than anyone is going to devote to the subject. GW could very easily keep reasonable share prices right up until the moment their business collapses and finally makes a major (and impossible to cover up) impact in their financial reports. Simply quoting share prices is not a substitute for a more complete analysis.
My issue is that when you have the same damn game go a decade on one edition, and in the same amount of time you see three editions? You can't even ATTEMPT to justify it as anything other than a cash grab, especially when each edition change is a paradigm shift that forces another unit type to be better than the others were in the previous edition ie. short sale of high volumes of models.
Seventh edition was definitely a cashgrab. Specially with what followed after. 8th edition is the means to patch the fething mess they've made. As it is a hard reboot and clean-up is needed ASAP or else 40k is going to choke by the dev-team's hands.
Thankfully it seems the dev-team isn't the only one working in this new edition. That gives reassurance.
But it's the same team as worked on the previous edition. Unless they culled the staff and got replacements in. If not, within 18 months the game will be in exactly the same state wen it was before.
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: But it's the same team as worked on the previous edition. Unless they culled the staff and got replacements in. If not, within 18 months the game will be in exactly the same state wen it was before.
It's not the same team. Remember they got the tournament organizers working with them. While I HIGHLY doubt it will be perfect, we will have less of that gak. Plus, it won't even get to 18 months. Remember, they want to do re-adjustments on a yearly basis.
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: But it's the same team as worked on the previous edition. Unless they culled the staff and got replacements in. If not, within 18 months the game will be in exactly the same state wen it was before.
While I'm going all-in on the initial parts of the new edition, (after sitting out the last few beyond starter sets and the odd codex) and not having played since 5th edition, there's nothing wrong with sitting out for 18 months to see how it pans out if that's your preference. I'm personally hoping that with the GHB-model being applied that terrible imbalance and power creep can be kept somewhat under control. I'm less optimistic about the FW stuff, because Forge World but I'll still buy their initial books so my models have rules, even if we have to house-rule them down a couple of notches. Even if it does go totally clownshoes again, the initial release codex-indexes should be enough to keep me playing casually with my mates for quite some time.
Azazelx wrote: I'm less optimistic about the FW stuff, because Forge World but I'll still buy their initial books so my models have rules, even if we have to house-rule them down a couple of notches.
While I expect there will be a couple of FW bits that end up being OP, you'll almost certainly find more which are UP - and probably more outliers either way in the core range.
Let's face it - everyone only has so much gaming money and gaming time to spend on the hobby.
For example, it will affect FFG. The release of Runewars was already suspect - now it is basically DOA. But things like X-Wing will be fine -- not really a hobby game.
Flames of War was also having growing pains with V4 - some interest may be directed away from that.
It will also hurt Warmachine/Hordes, which is already suffering.
Everything else is such a small market that it won't really make a difference either way.
I'm curious how 8th edition will affect Mantics Warpath/Firefight. AOS undoubtedly helped the 2nd edition of Kings of War greatly, and Mantic are most likely banking that dissatisfaction with 8th edition will help Warpath/Firefight. But 8th edition doesn´t seem as extreme as AOS and 40k really needed the changes more then WHFB did in my opinion, so they might be disappointed with how things will turn out.
Dysartes wrote: While I expect there will be a couple of Games Workshop bits that end up being OP, you'll almost certainly find more which are UP - and probably more outliers either way in the core range.
There. Fixed your typo. FW is the one you look for if you want to get reasonable rules.
Dysartes wrote: While I expect there will be a couple of Games Workshop bits that end up being OP, you'll almost certainly find more which are UP - and probably more outliers either way in the core range.
There. Fixed your typo. FW is the one you look for if you want to get reasonable rules.
>Magnus doing D-Novas. and Mournghuls.
>Reasonable.
By and large yes, but they are also culprit of some outrageous outliers. Rarer than GW's, true, but still there.
Dysartes wrote: While I expect there will be a couple of Games Workshop bits that end up being OP, you'll almost certainly find more which are UP - and probably more outliers either way in the core range.
There. Fixed your typo. FW is the one you look for if you want to get reasonable rules.
>Magnus doing D-Novas. and Mournghuls.
>Reasonable.
By and large yes, but they are also culprit of some outrageous outliers. Rarer than GW's, true, but still there.
Apart from that magnus thing being of dubious legality compare that to stuff like wraithknights.
Sure occasionally FW brings in OP stuff but less than GW and they have actually fixed with faster speed than GW.
Now that GW has pulled their head out of their ass and is making awesome rules and solid balance, I'm sure many leavers will come back and many new players will pick 40K.
I assume you were a playtester for nu40k and know how it plays then?
New players are always picking it up. It's the most widespread and thus getting a game is easier.
How much do you think this will ruin the day of games like WMH which can't compete on models and only ever grew like weeds because GW wasn't tending their backyard.
I personally think they're going to see a solid drop around the launch and then a continuous loss of popularity as even the most entrenched 40k haters go back to the miniatures they truly love.
I would imagine other games with their much smaller incomes will barely be touched. GW on the other hand will rake in loads with the cunning re-sell of their best selling range in a slightly larger scale. Many older players of 40k are probably more than happy to stick with the better games they've found, especially since they see this as the giant space marine selling version it is.
Azazelx wrote: The departure of Kirby (and Merrett) is significant.
The actions of Rountree, having taken over relatively recently can already been seen. Bundling, points in AoS, community outreach. If you've worked in any medium-sized organisation, you'll know that the perspectives and desires of the person at the top have a real impact throughout the organisation, particularly if that person is proactive and has a vision that they want for the company.
Kirby definitely had a vision for GW, but as a consumer, I strongly prefer Rountree's one...
Most worrying issues when Rountree took over as CEO: terrible rules, insane prices.
Current most worrying issues: terrible rules (as bad as they've ever been) and insane prices (getting more and more insane with each new release).
Even if the new 40k edition somewhat "solves" the terrible rules part (something I'm quite skeptical about), we still have the insane prices bit. On all accounts, the new shiny toys are going to be more expensive than what came before, continuing the trend of making a price hike with each new release.
The New GW still looks a lot like the Old GW to me, even with the new paintjob and the improved manners (after attempting to shut down competition via lawsuits, and suing child book authors, there was simply no room to fall even lower I guess, the only available way was up).
Also, has Kirby really "left"? Isn't he still the president, and one of the main shareholders of GW?
Azazelx wrote: The departure of Kirby (and Merrett) is significant.
The actions of Rountree, having taken over relatively recently can already been seen. Bundling, points in AoS, community outreach. If you've worked in any medium-sized organisation, you'll know that the perspectives and desires of the person at the top have a real impact throughout the organisation, particularly if that person is proactive and has a vision that they want for the company.
Kirby definitely had a vision for GW, but as a consumer, I strongly prefer Rountree's one...
Most worrying issues when Rountree took over as CEO: terrible rules, insane prices.
Current most worrying issues: terrible rules (as bad as they've ever been) and insane prices (getting more and more insane with each new release).
Even if the new 40k edition somewhat "solves" the terrible rules part (something I'm quite skeptical about), we still have the insane prices bit. On all accounts, the new shiny toys are going to be more expensive than what came before, continuing the trend of making a price hike with each new release.
The New GW still looks a lot like the Old GW to me, even with the new paintjob and the improved manners (after attempting to shut down competition via lawsuits, and suing child book authors, there was simply no room to fall even lower I guess, the only available way was up).
Also, has Kirby really "left"? Isn't he still the president, and one of the main shareholders of GW?
To my understanding he is a glorified secretary in the force org. chart of GW.
Also, on the matter of prizes. He's made a ton of repackages to lower older minis' prizes (mainly fantasy) and made bundles with actual discounts. So there's that on the prizing issue.
When the Eldar Aspects are released in plastic and Dire Avengers go back to ten to a box without a price hike, THEN I'll begin to believe they've finally gotten the S.S. Titanic turned around and have started patching the hull (and I'm more of a Tau/Tyranid player myself).
GW has had seven editions to fiddle with the game, and I have no faith they will get it right with number 8. I've heard all the same claims made back in the days of 4E D&D, and it just doesn't ring true. Folks had "broke" 4E D&D within two weeks of its release, I don't think it'll take them that long to do the same with 40K. And I believe we'll quickly find that things weren't playtested as much as they claimed - or, more likely they didn't incorporate playtester's concerns as much as they should have.
I've purchased every starter set for 40K that GW has put out - the new one will be the first one I have ever passed on; neither the Primaris or Death Guard interest me, and I find myself drifting farther afield of buying GW games for other systems with better rulesets. I no longer just buy the new GW hotness on faith - they really have to show their stuff is worth my money these days, and I'm just not feeling it when it comes to 8th edition.
With the Battleforce boxes, the Start Collecting boxes, Skirmish boxes, boxed boardgames that contain a ton of minis, it has never been cheaper to get into the hobby, as all of those come with a massive discount from GW, to which you can add a discount from your local seller.
That's not counting things like the SWA boxes and general bundles that includes a discount from GW.
So the continued lie about prices simply being jacked up all the time, is just that. A lie.
Are there exceptions to the rule, certainly. In general though, you get more/better minis with an actual, substantial discount from GW these days. Something that was not true with the recent past GW.
I just bought two boxes of Wargames Factory WW2 Americans/Germans for $7.89 a box (30 good quality figures + options per box), and a box of 10 Eisenkern soldiers for $19.00.
Hell, at the tail end of 5th, I bought the Black Reach set for about $80. Don't even get me started about the Eldar and Tau battleforce boxes from the 90's. Forget the cost - the number of miniatures that came with those sets (about twice that in a Start Collecting box) makes the current offerings look pathetic. GW has been jacking up prices AND cutting model count for years now, and everybody just asks for another shot in the arm.
GW's prices are so jacked that their "discounted" sets are STILL about 20% over the cost they should be. And their rules are still phoned-in insults to the customer.
I just bought two boxes of Wargames Factory WW2 Americans/Germans for $7.89 a box (30 good quality figures + options per box), and a box of 10 Eisenkern soldiers for $19.00.
Hell, at the tail end of 5th, I bought the Black Reach set for about $80. Don't even get me started about the Eldar and Tau battleforce boxes from the 90's. Forget the cost - the number of miniatures that came with those sets (about twice that in a Start Collecting box) makes the current offerings look pathetic. GW has been jacking up prices AND cutting model count for years now, and everybody just asks for another shot in the arm.
GW's prices are so jacked that their "discounted" sets are STILL about 20% over the cost they should be. And their rules are still phoned-in insults to the customer.
This is very true. Current Nu GW seems like they are giving you a deal only because thier prices are so insanely high that any small crumb of a deal seems like a great deal. Soon as you compare against other companies offerings, the offering looks terrible and the "deal" a paltry amount.
This is where the "not space marines/other games don't count/no competition/blind faith in mother GW" justifications begin.
ulgurstasta wrote: I'm curious how 8th edition will affect Mantics Warpath/Firefight. AOS undoubtedly helped the 2nd edition of Kings of War greatly, and Mantic are most likely banking that dissatisfaction with 8th edition will help Warpath/Firefight. But 8th edition doesn´t seem as extreme as AOS and 40k really needed the changes more then WHFB did in my opinion, so they might be disappointed with how things will turn out.
I hope it doesn't at all. I recently jumped ship to Warpath because I was tired not only of GW prices but more importantly because of the mess of rules 7th Ed had become. Last time I played against Tyranids I really thought my opponent was cheating me because there was no way he could put so many special rules in one model, except that he was not. He was using dataslate something + formation whatever + warzone somewhere... you catch my drift.
Warpath/Deadzone/Firefight offers (I hope) a return to more simple rules where I can enjoy an afternoon making pew pew noises and moving figures without having to lug around 25 different rulebooks along with a hundred miniatures and spending a whole day for a single game. If 8th Ed delivers precisely that then yes, Mantic is in trouble. If not I hope to see them grow here in Japan so the number of interested people increases and I can find more people to bring into the game.
Lord Kragan wrote: Also, on the matter of prizes. He's made a ton of repackages to lower older minis' prizes (mainly fantasy) and made bundles with actual discounts. So there's that on the prizing issue.
Some bundles with small discount on insanely overpriced models is not adressing, nor correcting the pricing issue.
It's something yes, but in the end little more than a few stitches and band aids to an already supurating wound.
Spiky Norman wrote: With the Battleforce boxes, the Start Collecting boxes, Skirmish boxes, boxed boardgames that contain a ton of minis, it has never been cheaper to get into the hobby, as all of those come with a massive discount from GW, to which you can add a discount from your local seller.
That's not counting things like the SWA boxes and general bundles that includes a discount from GW.
So the continued lie about prices simply being jacked up all the time, is just that. A lie.
Are there exceptions to the rule, certainly. In general though, you get more/better minis with an actual, substantial discount from GW these days. Something that was not true with the recent past GW.
A lie?
Is this a joke?
Yeah, old stuff has been bundled together and received small discounts. Care to see what's happening with new models? 40€ Rubric Marines? 45€ Wulfen (five models)? 45€ TS sorcerers (three models)? 29€ Kharn (a single infantry model)? These are NOT exceptions to the rule, it's happening with pretty much every new release. It's absurdly insane in comparison to what every other company is doing in regards to plastic models.
Can't wait to see what's going to happen with the first models during new edition. Gonna be surprised if the Death Guard models aren't at least as expensive as the Wulfen.
Lord Kragan wrote: Also, on the matter of prizes. He's made a ton of repackages to lower older minis' prizes (mainly fantasy) and made bundles with actual discounts. So there's that on the prizing issue.
Some bundles with small discount on insanely overpriced models is not adressing, nor correcting the pricing issue.
It's something yes, but in the end little more than a few stitches and band aids to an already supurating wound.
Spiky Norman wrote: With the Battleforce boxes, the Start Collecting boxes, Skirmish boxes, boxed boardgames that contain a ton of minis, it has never been cheaper to get into the hobby, as all of those come with a massive discount from GW, to which you can add a discount from your local seller.
That's not counting things like the SWA boxes and general bundles that includes a discount from GW.
So the continued lie about prices simply being jacked up all the time, is just that. A lie.
Are there exceptions to the rule, certainly. In general though, you get more/better minis with an actual, substantial discount from GW these days. Something that was not true with the recent past GW.
A lie?
Is this a joke?
Yeah, old stuff has been bundled together and received small discounts. Care to see what's happening with new models? 40€ Rubric Marines? 45€ Wulfen (five models)? 45€ TS sorcerers (three models)? 29€ Kharn (a single infantry model)? These are NOT exceptions to the rule, it's happening with pretty much every new release. It's absurdly insane in comparison to what every other company is doing in regards to plastic models.
Can't wait to see what's going to happen with the first models during new edition. Gonna be surprised if the Death Guard models aren't at least as expensive as the Wulfen.
Agree, when you see the aos ironjwaz warboss, 34 euros and meganobz box 49 euros for three models, what did they smoke? God, even when you buy on websites with big reductions (like 20%) it's still overpriced.
I think the original question has it backwards based on the two flgs in my area.
Just a sample at my two venue but we have about 4 players in the i'll get back into brigade but these are old school fluff players with an old army in a box in the attic. Their wargaming spend is very low and they might buy a new tank on ebay once a year but that's about it.
On the other hand the two of the three most competitive players who like complexity have taken up Malifaux as a direct result of the simplifaction. So big bonus to that game system
Now all three love 7th and there attitude to 8th are
1) Selling my daemons but will keep BA/Admech/Inquisition stopped plans to get another IK and sisters of silence
2) Now I'm not going to buy any more models that I had been planning too ill just work with what I've got
3) Considering 30k but waiting to read all 8th rules
So why does that matter because player 1) bought 12,000 pts worth of models last year alone so even if those 4 players all spend 10x more on 40k as a result gw will be losing money at least in my venue while Malifaux is laughing all the way to the bank if just one of those players stops buying (after initial book sales)
Not to mention if that sold army is going on ebay that's a lot of models GW won't be selling
Yeah, old stuff has been bundled together and received small discounts. Care to see what's happening with new models? 40€ Rubric Marines? 45€ Wulfen (five models)? 45€ TS sorcerers (three models)? 29€ Kharn (a single infantry model)? These are NOT exceptions to the rule, it's happening with pretty much every new release. It's absurdly insane in comparison to what every other company is doing in regards to plastic models.
Can't wait to see what's going to happen with the first models during new edition. Gonna be surprised if the Death Guard models aren't at least as expensive as the Wulfen.
I see this reasoning a lot. 'The bundles make 40k cheap'. They don't. They make starting40k cheap. But no one is simply buying 2-3 bundles and calling it a day. Once you have bought a couple of 'discounted' bundles, you'll want to spice it up with more interesting units, and then you're back to paying their standard, absurd pricing.
-Loki- wrote: I see this reasoning a lot. 'The bundles make 40k cheap'. They don't. They make starting40k cheap. But no one is simply buying 2-3 bundles and calling it a day. Once you have bought a couple of 'discounted' bundles, you'll want to spice it up with more interesting units, and then you're back to paying their standard, absurd pricing.
It also seems confirmed that the initial "index" will cost 20€ each, but in any case they're pretty much watered down versions of the future new codices that will eventually be released.
Also confirmed the new starting box will be 40€ more expensive than Dark Vengeance, and I couldn't care less about the hardback rulebook it will contain. The starting box is meant to get people into the hobby, with that goal in mind a softback mini-rulebook is more than enough.
I'm disappointed we won't apparently be getting free army lists (even if they were partial) to go with the free rules. I want to try out the new rules, but I'm certainly not buying short-term indexes to do so.
It seems like every time GW comes up to bat since I've returned that they manage to hit the ball (out of the park), but its on the wrong side of the foul line.
Spiky Norman wrote: With the Battleforce boxes, the Start Collecting boxes, Skirmish boxes, boxed boardgames that contain a ton of minis, it has never been cheaper to get into the hobby
Pedantic but necessary point: it has never been cheaper to get into Games Workshop
Except...it has been cheaper. 2nd Edition start box and army books were less expensive.
Today, there are plenty of games with a lower cost of entry.
Heck, even other GW games are cheaper still. You can get into Shadow Wars for a $40 book and a $50 box of plastic and you're done. And there's that small starter for AoS which has a handful of models in it, which are perfectly legal to play with.
We know from AoS players self reporting that they came over from 40k and from 40k slipping to the number 2 spot behind X-Wing in non collectible miniature games in North America that people have left 7th edition 40k in not insignificant numbers.
So who is left? The people who really like 7th edition. The same sort of people who denigrate Age of Sigmar.
And then GW just came out with a replacement 40k that is Sigmarized. People are already looking through the leaked index books and starting to freak out.
Even if a bunch of people come back from X-Wing or WM/H or Infinity or whatever, they may not equal the spending of a die hard 7th edition fan who leaves.
Every edition has a shake up in who the active customers are, but it's still quite possible that 7th edition players won't click with 8th as the ones who would have already left 7th edition.
In a different thread I predicted 8th edition might go on to be GW's best selling version of 40k ever with all the people talking about how they used to play but now they are coming back. But what happens if the people who returning are far more price sensitive than those who are now alienated?
I'm coming back and I'm surely not going to spend as much as many 7th edition players do. The guy complaining about the lack of chapter tactics for his three different marine armies is worth way more as a customer than me with my casual low model count approach.
frozenwastes: Good insight. Cannibalization of sales is always dangerous for a company. In the short term, it makes the newer line look good (AoS). In the longer term, it hurts the other line and may end up killing one or both. It also often amounts to a "shifting of the chairs" and not an increase in overall sales. It *can* be part of an effective strategy, but that generally means the newer product replaces the older, which seems unlikely here.
I think the biggest danger is still the tremendous barriers to entry. The models are expensive, both compared to other competing miniature lines and non-miniature competitors. There is also an enormous amount of prep work to have something other than expensive grey plastic game markers. To me, the big question is does this new edition offer enough incentive to buy new models. Quick, easy playing rules that allow generous model mixing will do that. But will it counterbalance the ever increasing prices and hobby work required?
If AoS: skirmish ends up being an evergreen product and GW actively markets to new players and comes up with a 40k equivalent, they might have the barrier issue cracked. The only thing missing is a page or so on transitioning from high renown skirmish games to low points full games.
A new 40k mini starter with a skirmsh booklet, core rules pamphlet and a guide to transitioning to the larger game? Could be the ideal starter for GW
Kharn is a special character that you're only ever going to need ONE of. Which is exactly why characters like this are more expensive. Privateer Press also prices a lot of their newer warcaster models in the $25-40 range, because again, you only ever need one of them.
Also, the pricing argument is so tiresome. God forbid that a luxury hobby actually costs more money than a meal for two at Applebee's.
God forbid GW set reasonable prices in the first place. Unfortunately, price is one of the driving factors in this whole business, and GW's prices are on the silly side of the spectrum.
Several of my own 40K armies are composed of non-GW models for the very reason of price - my IG is made of trenchcoat figures from the Wargames Factory line - easily a 100 guardsmen for about $50, and I have several non-GW marines (a squad of Centurions from a 90's metal line, my assault marines are from another line again from the 90's [50 such marines for $19], and my Chapter master is a resin figure from yet another line that was $10-$15).
While I understand that the single characters cost more because folks are only buying one, selling them for about $30 a pop is still ridiculous. If they need to be that expensive for a single hero, they don't need to be made in the first place (yet another reason for me not to allow heroes in the games I play).
Kharn is a special character that you're only ever going to need ONE of. Which is exactly why characters like this are more expensive. Privateer Press also prices a lot of their newer warcaster models in the $25-40 range, because again, you only ever need one of them.
Also, the pricing argument is so tiresome. God forbid that a luxury hobby actually costs more money than a meal for two at Applebee's.
So what if he's a special character? Does representing a special character in a tabletop game count as a excuse for charging 29€ for a single, infantry-sized humanoid plastic model?
Privateer may do as their wish with their own stupidly overpriced models, still not a excuse for GW's insane pricing policy.
What "luxury hobby" are you talking about? Wargaming and model collecting are not necessarily luxury hobbies, there are tons of wargames you can play without investing a high amount of money in, and same for assembling collections of models.
The Hobby(tm) as understood by diehard GW fanatics, on the other hand...
Kharn is a special character that you're only ever going to need ONE of. Which is exactly why characters like this are more expensive. Privateer Press also prices a lot of their newer warcaster models in the $25-40 range, because again, you only ever need one of them.
Also, the pricing argument is so tiresome. God forbid that a luxury hobby actually costs more money than a meal for two at Applebee's.
So what if he's a special character? Does representing a special character in a tabletop game count as a excuse for charging 29€ for a single, infantry-sized humanoid plastic model?
Privateer may do as their wish with their own stupidly overpriced models, still not a excuse for GW's insane pricing policy.
What "luxury hobby" are you talking about? Wargaming and model collecting are not necessarily luxury hobbies, there are tons of wargames you can play without investing a high amount of money in, and same for assembling collections of models.
The Hobby(tm) as understood by diehard GW fanatics, on the other hand...
Actually, what's the price difference between plastic and white metal these days? Because if white metal's more expensive, then it'd mean that PP are charging less for one-off models made in a more expensive material than GW are.
Spiky Norman wrote: With the Battleforce boxes, the Start Collecting boxes, Skirmish boxes, boxed boardgames that contain a ton of minis, it has never been cheaper to get into the hobby
Pedantic but necessary point: it has never been cheaper to get into Games Workshop
Ah but the Games Worshop IS The Hobby(tm). Didn't you get the note?-)
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Mangod wrote: Actually, what's the price difference between plastic and white metal these days? Because if white metal's more expensive, then it'd mean that PP are charging less for one-off models made in a more expensive material than GW are.
Though price of material is hardly the full deal. Remember moulds cost money and plastic ones are very expensive. The fact it's special character DOES matter as that means you sell only 1 generally per player which means you sell less sprues which means price per sprue needs to be bigger.
While there's hefty GW price tax added the mere fact that GW insists on plastic for everything will ramp up the price of plastic characters(specials or not). Right material for right purpose. As long as GW insists on plastic on characters they will be expensive even if GW bonus is removed.
Kharn is a special character that you're only ever going to need ONE of. Which is exactly why characters like this are more expensive. Privateer Press also prices a lot of their newer warcaster models in the $25-40 range, because again, you only ever need one of them.
Also, the pricing argument is so tiresome. God forbid that a luxury hobby actually costs more money than a meal for two at Applebee's.
So what if he's a special character? Does representing a special character in a tabletop game count as a excuse for charging 29€ for a single, infantry-sized humanoid plastic model?
Privateer may do as their wish with their own stupidly overpriced models, still not a excuse for GW's insane pricing policy.
What "luxury hobby" are you talking about? Wargaming and model collecting are not necessarily luxury hobbies, there are tons of wargames you can play without investing a high amount of money in, and same for assembling collections of models.
The Hobby(tm) as understood by diehard GW fanatics, on the other hand...
Actually, collecting miniatures is a hell of a expensive hobby, not only GW. Yeah yeah, "The fact that others are overpriced don't excuse GW for being overprice": I agree with that, but one has to see the market with perspective.
I don't buy apple, because I don't like to pay so much for something that I don't like when I can buy Windows. The same goes with GW. I buy miniatures that I like at the prices I find reasonable. I can pay 30€ for a single plastic miniature if I really love it, but maybe I just don't pay 10€ for a Metal Miniature because it doesn't has the same subjetive value for me even if is cheaper and in a objetive level of the exact same quality.
The most expensive miniature hobby out there is actually collectin Legos Have you seen the price of that? I have a friend that collects legos and makes figures with legos, and he has pay like 40-50€ for a single Lego figurine (The ones that are small and yellow). To me thats crazy, to him is reasonable because he really likes it.
I do think 8th will have impact, but not because it will damage the competition, but because some of the competition has already started doing things to hurt themselves. I mean games like Infinity will be fine. Guildball should be fine, but they could also be having issues I'm not aware of.
Warmachine..... well they started on their downward slide about a year or so before Mrk III came out. The line ticket debacle of Gencon 2015 comes to mind.
Mantic.... They have never really been that stable Ronnie has serious game ADD. and that holds them back as a company.
Spartan... Again Game ADD
Hawk... DropZone was strong for a few years, but their lack of community interaction during development of Drop Fleet has had an impact on both games.
But at the end of the day 8th will stand on its own, it is not meant to hurt the competition, it is meant to be its own game and bring back community engagement.
I started out playing with Warmachine, not because that was how I discovered war gaming (I was playing WotC Star Wars minis before that) it was just at the time I didn't automatically hate the people who played it. I can't say that about other games.
Kharn is a special character that you're only ever going to need ONE of. Which is exactly why characters like this are more expensive. Privateer Press also prices a lot of their newer warcaster models in the $25-40 range, because again, you only ever need one of them.
Also, the pricing argument is so tiresome. God forbid that a luxury hobby actually costs more money than a meal for two at Applebee's.
So what if he's a special character? Does representing a special character in a tabletop game count as a excuse for charging 29€ for a single, infantry-sized humanoid plastic model?
Privateer may do as their wish with their own stupidly overpriced models, still not a excuse for GW's insane pricing policy.
What "luxury hobby" are you talking about? Wargaming and model collecting are not necessarily luxury hobbies, there are tons of wargames you can play without investing a high amount of money in, and same for assembling collections of models.
The Hobby(tm) as understood by diehard GW fanatics, on the other hand...
Actually, what's the price difference between plastic and white metal these days? Because if white metal's more expensive, then it'd mean that PP are charging less for one-off models made in a more expensive material than GW are.
Kharn is a special character that you're only ever going to need ONE of. Which is exactly why characters like this are more expensive. Privateer Press also prices a lot of their newer warcaster models in the $25-40 range, because again, you only ever need one of them.
Also, the pricing argument is so tiresome. God forbid that a luxury hobby actually costs more money than a meal for two at Applebee's.
That may be GW's position on pricing, but other game manufacturers do fine without such pricing strategies. For example, Infinity special characters are priced the same as regular models. They price based on the overall production cost, not the quantity of that model they intend for you to buy or in game impact, because those are irrelevant.
GW's overall pricing strategies are absurd. Highest priced models on the market, with games that require the highest model count on the market, combined with pricing based on in game logic pushing certain kits ever higher makes their games by far the most expensive.
You might be tired of hearing the pricing argument, but that just means it's actually a problem, or people wouldn't bring it up so often. Playing FFG games, Wyrds games, Corvus Bellis games, Privateer presses games and many other manufacturers are the exact same luxury hobby as GW's games, and outside of Privateer Press, there's very few complaints about the pricing. That should tell you something about their pricing in the overall hobby.
Playing FFG games, Wyrds games, Corvus Bellis games, Privateer presses games and many other manufacturers are the exact same luxury hobby as GW's games, and outside of Privateer Press, there's very few complaints about the pricing. That should tell you something about their pricing in the overall hobby.
Playing FFG games, Wyrds games, Corvus Bellis games, Privateer presses games and many other manufacturers are the exact same luxury hobby as GW's games, and outside of Privateer Press, there's very few complaints about the pricing. That should tell you something about their pricing in the overall hobby.
Haven't you meet Kanluwen?
First, yes.
Second, I see you bolded where I said 'very few', not 'none'.
Third, he complains about a hell of a lot, but only rarely pricing.
That may be GW's position on pricing, but other game manufacturers do fine without such pricing strategies. For example, Infinity special characters are priced the same as regular models. They price based on the overall production cost, not the quantity of that model they intend for you to buy or in game impact, because those are irrelevant.
What's the material? Metal or resin? If those it's actually huge difference to plastic models in terms of 1 model price being cheap. And of course isn't infinity small scale game so basically every model is low sale(unlike say 40k where difference can be easily 10+ times sprues for unit sold per player rather than 1 for special character) and price for models seems to be more expensive all around. Rank&file are even more pricey than GW prices.
That may be GW's position on pricing, but other game manufacturers do fine without such pricing strategies. For example, Infinity special characters are priced the same as regular models. They price based on the overall production cost, not the quantity of that model they intend for you to buy or in game impact, because those are irrelevant.
What's the material? Metal or resin? If those it's actually huge difference to plastic models in terms of 1 model price being cheap. And of course isn't infinity small scale game so basically every model is low sale(unlike say 40k where difference can be easily 10+ times sprues for unit sold per player rather than 1 for special character) and price for models seems to be more expensive all around. Rank&file are even more pricey than GW prices.
You don't have rank and file in Infinity. And yes, it's metal, so individual models are more expensive because production costs are higher - molds need to be replaced frequently, the material is more expensive.
While GW use plastic molds, they absolutely massively inflate their prices more than the competition. Once a plastic mold is tooled, it costs pennies to produce a sprue, and the machines hammer them out quickly. This price inflation is shown in a lot of other very cheap plastic ranges, particularly historicals. There's no reason for GW's plastic to be as expensive as they are, except that they know their customers will pay it. Even on a single sprue character like Kharne, who is (if they do them anything like the original single sprue characters for Fantasy) 4 different characters to a mold, they just pump out 4 characters at a time for pennies. Any one of them that sells is making many, many times more than any other company on a plastic kit. Multiple that by 4 because they're getting 4 individual models off that mold.
Not all companies sell plastic cheap. Wyrd prices them high, but still not nearly GW's level with individual models sitting about half what GW charges, and their starter crews sitting at about squad box prices. But they can get away with it because you'll almost never buy the same set twice and to compete you'll only need a few purchases over a starter, whereas you might buy 4-5 of a set from GW.
Even discounting the massively inflated price of their plastics, what makes GW's games expensive is the quantity of models. If buying a 'start collecting' box and an extra squad or two got you a complete force that could play competitively, there would be a lot less complaints. Not none, but a lot less. But that's just the start to a 40k army, and once you start adding more squads, more bundles, more vehicles, more monstrous creatures to get to the common standard points cost (when I played back in 6th it hovered between 1500pts/2000pts), the price baloons to massive amounts.
It's an interesting design issue. You want a product with a low barrier to entry that encourages additional purchase. Magic is a really good example. Buy a starter deck for under $20 and you are ready to play. Not well,mind you, but at least fun games. Boosters expand your options at $4 a pop and there is an active trading/draft scene so you get to get into the community. You can potentially spend unlimited amounts, but it is not necessary, especially for casual play. And all you need to play is your cards and a table, counter, etc.
Now look at Warhammer. To have a playable force of models you are looking at 1500-2000 points or so. The "Start Collecting force" Gives you an HQ, some termies, a tac and a dread. Not enough for a "real force" but meets the technical requirements so let's go with it. You now have $85 worth of plastic that has to be assembled. And no rules. So you buy the rules. Last I checked, the rules clock in at a whopping $80 with a Codex at $50 or so, meaning you shell out around $130 for rules! So now you are over $200 and still don't have 1 painted model or any terrain. So you drop some more money on paint and glue, and use some felt and cardboard terrain or play at a store. Then you invest hours assembling your plastic. Congratulations! You can now play a barely functional force that you will have to drop $50 or so per element to expand and then assemble and paint.
GW knows that it's existing players tend to be pretty price insensitive, but you are looking at a buy in comparable to a new video game system with an additional time cost. That's a pretty stiff obstacle.
Even compared to other miniature lines, it is near the top. That doesn't seem to be changing.
GW has succeeded previously on this model, but seems to be pushing the boundaries of how far it can take this. The current thought seems to reduce the entry barriers by simplifying rules and allowing smaller, more diverse forces. Likewise, the push has been to expand model ranges to drive sales. Prices continue to rise, increasing margins, but also continuing to increase the cost of entry and making it less desirable compared to other entertainment and hobby choices.
About 2 years ago, I bought some GW textured paint. Pretty good stuff and now it's finished. Whilst looking around for a replacement, I checked Tamiya and Vallejo to see if they had their version.
Turns out they did. 10 x more product than GW's offering and roughly the same price.
I think the absurd amount of hype going around will ultimately kick GW between the legs more than anything else. Whilst excitement is of course healthy, the sheer absurdity of people's expectations - from both long-term fanboys and returning players alike - is rather stark. Maybe I'm just too cynical, but I've seen so, so, many otherwise rational people who seem to think this will completely overhaul both the company AND game in a swift 180, with amazing and well-thought out rules.
I mean when the barrier to reach for was set so damn low you're obviously going to impress SOMEBODY with your changes, but we've had so many months of people being drip fed hype that it's ultimately going to come back around and knock people for six when it turns out, actually, it's a damn good improvement but not the Second Coming just about every tabletop site would have you believe.
Ah 8th is most definitely not the 2nd coming imo.
It has a lot of improvements over 6-7th but some serious flaws too.
In addition a lot of the unit rules really havent changed that much or been reinvented or made interesting (tervi spawning, warp spider jumps, swooping hawk skyleap, necron Rp, ork morale - the list is endless).
They are a rehash of either current 7th rules or previous iterations which is my biggest disappointment.
jmurph wrote: GW knows that it's existing players tend to be pretty price insensitive, but you are looking at a buy in comparable to a new video game system with an additional time cost. That's a pretty stiff obstacle.
Even compared to other miniature lines, it is near the top. That doesn't seem to be changing.
GW has succeeded previously on this model, but seems to be pushing the boundaries of how far it can take this. The current thought seems to reduce the entry barriers by simplifying rules and allowing smaller, more diverse forces. Likewise, the push has been to expand model ranges to drive sales. Prices continue to rise, increasing margins, but also continuing to increase the cost of entry and making it less desirable compared to other entertainment and hobby choices.
I don't have the data to back this up but to me feels like the bold part is really important and also when GW started to stagnate (sales wise).
I remember when they could sell "the game" with a box of Space Marines and starter paint set and both were about the cost of a 40€ game (± a bit). And then they could sell more stuff later on for a small army that is play-worthy without needing many hundreds of Euros of startup cost. It was manageable for a young teenager (with some help from their parents). That was something they could sell to the parents as a more social alternative than sitting in front of the TV all day (and it's true to a degree).
Once GW lost that option to position its product as a better alternative to video games (which is an easy comparison for parents who know just a tiny bit about their kids' more obscure hobbies) GW's games had to stand on their own feet and then it's harder to justify all the followup cost. At some point after that GW shifted from the premium game pieces/toys ("Porsche of the miniature industry") to the more "collectors will buy it at any cost" exclusives/limited editions way of selling stuff.
And now they are trying to reduce the cost with GW board games (huge discount on their plastic and don't really compete with regular boardgames), new lines (harlequins/AM/…), "more drastic" new editions, and going for different game sizes (that's something they already kinda had with Specialist Games).
That may be GW's position on pricing, but other game manufacturers do fine without such pricing strategies. For example, Infinity special characters are priced the same as regular models. They price based on the overall production cost, not the quantity of that model they intend for you to buy or in game impact, because those are irrelevant.
What's the material? Metal or resin? If those it's actually huge difference to plastic models in terms of 1 model price being cheap. And of course isn't infinity small scale game so basically every model is low sale(unlike say 40k where difference can be easily 10+ times sprues for unit sold per player rather than 1 for special character) and price for models seems to be more expensive all around. Rank&file are even more pricey than GW prices.
You don't have rank and file in Infinity. And yes, it's metal, so individual models are more expensive because production costs are higher - molds need to be replaced frequently, the material is more expensive.
While GW use plastic molds, they absolutely massively inflate their prices more than the competition. Once a plastic mold is tooled, it costs pennies to produce a sprue, and the machines hammer them out quickly. This price inflation is shown in a lot of other very cheap plastic ranges, particularly historicals. There's no reason for GW's plastic to be as expensive as they are, except that they know their customers will pay it. Even on a single sprue character like Kharne, who is (if they do them anything like the original single sprue characters for Fantasy) 4 different characters to a mold, they just pump out 4 characters at a time for pennies. Any one of them that sells is making many, many times more than any other company on a plastic kit. Multiple that by 4 because they're getting 4 individual models off that mold.
Not all companies sell plastic cheap. Wyrd prices them high, but still not nearly GW's level with individual models sitting about half what GW charges, and their starter crews sitting at about squad box prices. But they can get away with it because you'll almost never buy the same set twice and to compete you'll only need a few purchases over a starter, whereas you might buy 4-5 of a set from GW.
Even discounting the massively inflated price of their plastics, what makes GW's games expensive is the quantity of models. If buying a 'start collecting' box and an extra squad or two got you a complete force that could play competitively, there would be a lot less complaints. Not none, but a lot less. But that's just the start to a 40k army, and once you start adding more squads, more bundles, more vehicles, more monstrous creatures to get to the common standard points cost (when I played back in 6th it hovered between 1500pts/2000pts), the price baloons to massive amounts.
Like Privateer Press and CMoN (WoK), Wyrd is not just selling you the plastic miniatures in the box, they are also selling you the full rules for each model in the box.
I would also point out that while their 'start playing' boxes represent an overall savings, their individual contents are very hit and miss as to performance in the game. Look at the marine starter boxes for 7th - a tactical squad equivalent, a termie hq and a dreadnought/baal predator. They may be more viable in 8th (or not, we'll see how it goes) but for 7th they were sub-optimal units. It felt more like a way to shift low-selling kits than it did to encourage entry into the game.
Having another look at what's available, the eldar one seems decent due to the scat bikes, the space wolves due to the thunder wolves, and the tyranids due to the flyrant. But in most cases it would still work out cheaper to buy the individual models and not pay extra for the suboptimal discounted models.
Now that GW has pulled their head out of their ass and is making awesome rules and solid balance, I'm sure many leavers will come back and many new players will pick 40K.
How much do you think this will ruin the day of games like WMH which can't compete on models and only ever grew like weeds because GW wasn't tending their backyard.
I personally think they're going to see a solid drop around the launch and then a continuous loss of popularity as even the most entrenched 40k haters go back to the miniatures they truly love.
It's less clear that it would affect micro games like x wing though but they're not in the same category imo, that's more BFG.
Now that GW has pulled their head out of their ass and is making awesome rules and solid balance, I'm sure many leavers will come back and many new players will pick 40K.
How much do you think this will ruin the day of games like WMH which can't compete on models and only ever grew like weeds because GW wasn't tending their backyard.
I personally think they're going to see a solid drop around the launch and then a continuous loss of popularity as even the most entrenched 40k haters go back to the miniatures they truly love.
It's less clear that it would affect micro games like x wing though but they're not in the same category imo, that's more BFG.
lol balanced
From the reports we are hearing it kind of is "balanced": maybe not perfect, though.
Further to the pricing argument, lets look at the new starter. I'll be talking Australian prices, because that's where I live.
Dark Imperium is $220au. Granted, you do get a fair amount of miniatures, but that's a serious chunk of change.
Lets look at some of the non Warmachine competition.
Dropzone Commander is $140au. That comes with a cardstock cityscape.
Dropfleet Commander is $125au. That comes with cardstock space-scape.
Infinity has two, Operation Ice Storm and Operation Red Veil. Both are $118au, and come with quite a bit of cardstock terrain.
Malifaux is $90au. It has no terrain, though they did bundle in a pair of Fate decks, which is kind of important since your dice collection are useless.
Batman, the most expensive so far, is $180au, and comes with a pair of cardstock buildings.
Maelstroms Edge is $100au.
Beyond the Gates of Antares is $175au.
There's not a single starter I can find that's up there with the starter for 40k 8th, and most, even those that are almost half the price, tend to bundle in enough terrain for a game as well. Only two are getting up there but still sit about 20% cheaper. One is well under half the cost. Even the two player battleboxes for Warmachine, often said to be as expensive as 40k, are sitting at half the price, $110au.
If I was a parent taking some kids to an FLGS to grab their first tabletop game, I'd be seriously questioning the price.
Now that GW has pulled their head out of their ass and is making awesome rules and solid balance, I'm sure many leavers will come back and many new players will pick 40K.
How much do you think this will ruin the day of games like WMH which can't compete on models and only ever grew like weeds because GW wasn't tending their backyard.
I personally think they're going to see a solid drop around the launch and then a continuous loss of popularity as even the most entrenched 40k haters go back to the miniatures they truly love.
It's less clear that it would affect micro games like x wing though but they're not in the same category imo, that's more BFG.
Biased post is Biased...
You are forgetting this little gem. with your air of superiority.
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Arbitrator wrote: I think the absurd amount of hype going around will ultimately kick GW between the legs more than anything else. Whilst excitement is of course healthy, the sheer absurdity of people's expectations - from both long-term fanboys and returning players alike - is rather stark. Maybe I'm just too cynical, but I've seen so, so, many otherwise rational people who seem to think this will completely overhaul both the company AND game in a swift 180, with amazing and well-thought out rules.
I mean when the barrier to reach for was set so damn low you're obviously going to impress SOMEBODY with your changes, but we've had so many months of people being drip fed hype that it's ultimately going to come back around and knock people for six when it turns out, actually, it's a damn good improvement but not the Second Coming just about every tabletop site would have you believe.
And YOU sir, have the best post of the thread. Congratulations on Realistic expectations.
-Loki- wrote: Further to the pricing argument, lets look at the new starter. I'll be talking Australian prices, because that's where I live.
Dark Imperium is $220au. Granted, you do get a fair amount of miniatures, but that's a serious chunk of change.
Lets look at some of the non Warmachine competition.
Dropzone Commander is $140au. That comes with a cardstock cityscape.
Dropfleet Commander is $125au. That comes with cardstock space-scape.
Infinity has two, Operation Ice Storm and Operation Red Veil. Both are $118au, and come with quite a bit of cardstock terrain.
Malifaux is $90au. It has no terrain, though they did bundle in a pair of Fate decks, which is kind of important since your dice collection are useless.
Batman, the most expensive so far, is $180au, and comes with a pair of cardstock buildings.
Maelstroms Edge is $100au.
Beyond the Gates of Antares is $175au.
There's not a single starter I can find that's up there with the starter for 40k 8th, and most, even those that are almost half the price, tend to bundle in enough terrain for a game as well. Only two are getting up there but still sit about 20% cheaper. One is well under half the cost. Even the two player battleboxes for Warmachine, often said to be as expensive as 40k, are sitting at half the price, $110au.
If I was a parent taking some kids to an FLGS to grab their first tabletop game, I'd be seriously questioning the price.
Don't forget in Dark Imperium,you're getting the full-size, hard back rulebook and I'd wager this is what pushes the price above $200. If it were the A5 pamphlet style, it'd probably be cheaper. Also worth noticing is that you don't get the full rules with the Malifaux starter- you have to buy the BRB ($60ish AUD), the little RB ($20ish AUD) or download the little RB online (free). I have no idea what rules you get with infinity, but their hardback BRB is $100 here. Comparing 40k's starter with Spire of Dawn ($140- 2 almost complete armies, rules) and the AOS proper starter (was 200 AUD, now 150) there is a bit more variation in GW's starter price.
-Loki- wrote: Further to the pricing argument, lets look at the new starter. I'll be talking Australian prices, because that's where I live.
Dark Imperium is $220au. Granted, you do get a fair amount of miniatures, but that's a serious chunk of change.
Lets look at some of the non Warmachine competition.
Dropzone Commander is $140au. That comes with a cardstock cityscape.
Dropfleet Commander is $125au. That comes with cardstock space-scape.
Infinity has two, Operation Ice Storm and Operation Red Veil. Both are $118au, and come with quite a bit of cardstock terrain.
Malifaux is $90au. It has no terrain, though they did bundle in a pair of Fate decks, which is kind of important since your dice collection are useless.
Batman, the most expensive so far, is $180au, and comes with a pair of cardstock buildings.
Maelstroms Edge is $100au.
Beyond the Gates of Antares is $175au.
There's not a single starter I can find that's up there with the starter for 40k 8th, and most, even those that are almost half the price, tend to bundle in enough terrain for a game as well. Only two are getting up there but still sit about 20% cheaper. One is well under half the cost. Even the two player battleboxes for Warmachine, often said to be as expensive as 40k, are sitting at half the price, $110au.
If I was a parent taking some kids to an FLGS to grab their first tabletop game, I'd be seriously questioning the price.
Don't forget in Dark Imperium,you're getting the full-size, hard back rulebook and I'd wager this is what pushes the price above $200. If it were the A5 pamphlet style, it'd probably be cheaper. Also worth noticing is that you don't get the full rules with the Malifaux starter- you have to buy the BRB ($60ish AUD), the little RB ($20ish AUD) or download the little RB online (free). I have no idea what rules you get with infinity, but their hardback BRB is $100 here. Comparing 40k's starter with Spire of Dawn ($140- 2 almost complete armies, rules) and the AOS proper starter (was 200 AUD, now 150) there is a bit more variation in GW's starter price.
Quite correct about the full, hardback rulebook pushing the price up. However, like so many things that make their products expensive, that was their choice to put it in there.
For Malifaux, you're kind of incorrect. You get the full rules as a download code, you're just expected to download the rules manual PDF from DrivethruRPG. The rules manual has all of the rules for the game, it's lacking the fluff and the unit cards for all of wave 1 which are only in the large book (and the unit cards are provided with the miniatures as you buy them, so it's more of an informative piece than a requirement to play the game). I'd have preferred the rules manual to be in the box, but I respect the reason it was left as a download for a small company. My only gripe is since they made the rules manual free for everyone, it's removed that $15 value from the set.
Infinity is the same. You get some quickstart rules that cover the basics of what's in the box, and you're expected to either download the rules from their website for free or buy the rule book if you want pretty art and fluff.
I deliberately wasn't comparing them to GW's other offerings, because a smart company doesn't see its own alternative products as competition. Also, I can admire what's in GW's starter. Something they always have is amazing production values. The books are gorgeous along with the miniatures they provide. However, again, it is their choice to put the hardcover rulebook in the starter, so it is their choice to have what is far and away the most expensive starter on the market.
Starter sets are gateway products. They're to entice you. The best thing Dark Impirium does is inform you of the overall cost of playing 40k. You're buying a really expensive kit with some great production values, and the followup purchases will be just as expensive compared to the rest of the market. They have to hope their aesthetic appeals to people and sells it hard, because they've got an uphill battle for enticing people entering the hobby.
I heard a rumour that Infinity seems to be hurting at the moment. I am not sure if that is due to a resurgent GW or just that problem that all companies face when they have been around long enough, in that people just run out of new things to buy.
StygianBeach wrote: I heard a rumour that Infinity seems to be hurting at the moment. I am not sure if that is due to a resurgent GW or just that problem that all companies face when they have been around long enough, in that people just run out of new things to buy.
I heard a rumour that Games Workshop was about to collapse any minute now.
StygianBeach wrote: I heard a rumour that Infinity seems to be hurting at the moment. I am not sure if that is due to a resurgent GW or just that problem that all companies face when they have been around long enough, in that people just run out of new things to buy.
I heard a rumour that Games Workshop was about to collapse any minute now.
StygianBeach wrote: I heard a rumour that Infinity seems to be hurting at the moment. I am not sure if that is due to a resurgent GW or just that problem that all companies face when they have been around long enough, in that people just run out of new things to buy.
I heard a rumour that Games Workshop was about to collapse any minute now.
lol... I have been hearing that one since 1999.
My point was, people start rumours all the time based on their own anecdotal evidence.
Anecdotally, I see no 40k played at my FLGS. I see Infinity and Malifaux played. That must mean GW is going to die and those two games will flourish.
I mustn't have anything do do with the fact that I don't mingle with the GW playing crowd and was one of the starting players of the Infinity and Malifaux groups. None at all.
StygianBeach wrote: I heard a rumour that Infinity seems to be hurting at the moment. I am not sure if that is due to a resurgent GW or just that problem that all companies face when they have been around long enough, in that people just run out of new things to buy.
I heard a rumour that Games Workshop was about to collapse any minute now.
lol... I have been hearing that one since 1999.
My point was, people start rumours all the time based on their own anecdotal evidence.
Anecdotally, I see no 40k played at my FLGS. I see Infinity and Malifaux played. That must mean GW is going to die and those two games will flourish.
I mustn't have anything do do with the fact that I don't mingle with the GW playing crowd and was one of the starting players of the Infinity and Malifaux groups. None at all.
Sure, but I stated it was only a rumour and not a fact., so I would imagine that taking what I posted with a gain of salt would be automatic.
Like Privateer Press and CMoN (WoK), Wyrd is not just selling you the plastic miniatures in the box, they are also selling you the full rules for each model in the box.
In theory GW said they wanted to do that for 40k 8th edition. Haven't bought anything for seven (and thank god) but I seem to recal someone sayingl they started doing that at the tail end of it. Nevertheless: they are doing so now.
I think 40k 8th is going to absolutely wreck its direct competitors (Beyond the Gates of Antares, Malestrom's Edge, Warpath), with perhaps less of an effect on its indirect competitors (X-Wing, Warmahordes). That said, its direct competitors aren't precisely flourishing as it stands, so that might be an easy prediction to make.
Like Privateer Press and CMoN (WoK), Wyrd is not just selling you the plastic miniatures in the box, they are also selling you the full rules for each model in the box.
In theory GW said they wanted to do that for 40k 8th edition. Haven't bought anything for seven (and thank god) but I seem to recal someone sayingl they started doing that at the tail end of it. Nevertheless: they are doing so now.
there were some stats, but no points or such. AoS gives the "full" rules if you are playing their no-points style, but otherwise they have not.
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Kingsley wrote: I think 40k 8th is going to absolutely wreck its direct competitors (Beyond the Gates of Antares, Malestrom's Edge, Warpath), with perhaps less of an effect on its indirect competitors (X-Wing, Warmahordes). That said, its direct competitors aren't precisely flourishing as it stands, so that might be an easy prediction to make.
I dont see it having really any effect at all, the warmahordes crowd are not going to stop playing for 40k (of any edition) and will keep recruiting as usual.
You don't have rank and file in Infinity. And yes, it's metal, so individual models are more expensive because production costs are higher - molds need to be replaced frequently, the material is more expensive.
Okay so metal. No wonder.Plastic models you sell only one or maybe two per customer is NEVER going to be as cheap as metal model unless there's new breakthrough in plastic production. End of story.
While GW use plastic molds, they absolutely massively inflate their prices more than the competition. Once a plastic mold is tooled, it costs pennies to produce a sprue, and the machines hammer them out quickly.
Yes but mold costs lot more which you seem to forget.
Here's the basic system. You have mould that costs 100 to produce and you sell 10 units. To make even you need then to sell them at price of 10 before taking other factors.
If mold costs 10 then obviously price is much lower..-.
Plastic is not designed for individual models you don't sell multiples. It's designed for cheap mass production. Its designed for stuff you sell lots per customer. If you are looking for producing indiivual model to sell cheaply you look at metal or resin.
Anybody claiming plastic model you sell 1 per customer should be cheaper than equilavent in metal and resin has obviously not studied how things work at all.
Now is GW prices still too high? Yes but it's not as clear cut as it might seem.
You don't have rank and file in Infinity. And yes, it's metal, so individual models are more expensive because production costs are higher - molds need to be replaced frequently, the material is more expensive.
Okay so metal. No wonder.Plastic models you sell only one or maybe two per customer is NEVER going to be as cheap as metal model unless there's new breakthrough in plastic production. End of story.
Then why can smaller companies sell individual models for less? Wyrd are by no means cheap, but their individual models are a quarter of the cost in Australia.
While GW use plastic molds, they absolutely massively inflate their prices more than the competition. Once a plastic mold is tooled, it costs pennies to produce a sprue, and the machines hammer them out quickly.
Yes but mold costs lot more which you seem to forget.
I don't forget. Do you know how much cheaper it is to pump out sprues from a plastic mold? It's extremely cheap. Again, pennies per sprue. This is why plastic is cheaper from everyone else except GW.
tneva82 wrote: Here's the basic system. You have mould that costs 100 to produce and you sell 10 units. To make even you need then to sell them at price of 10 before taking other factors.
If mold costs 10 then obviously price is much lower..-.
Plastic is not designed for individual models you don't sell multiples. It's designed for cheap mass production. Its designed for stuff you sell lots per customer. If you are looking for producing indiivual model to sell cheaply you look at metal or resin.
Anybody claiming plastic model you sell 1 per customer should be cheaper than equilavent in metal and resin has obviously not studied how things work at all.
Now is GW prices still too high? Yes but it's not as clear cut as it might seem.
Again. All of their competitors that product models in plastic do it cheaper. My previous example of Wyrd has an entire range of 'special characters' style sets where you never buy anything more than once. And they manage to beat GW in price.
It's amusing people still accept the logic of 'plastic molds are expensive, so your plastic are more expensive than resin and metal'.
jmurph wrote: GW knows that it's existing players tend to be pretty price insensitive, but you are looking at a buy in comparable to a new video game system with an additional time cost. That's a pretty stiff obstacle.
Even compared to other miniature lines, it is near the top. That doesn't seem to be changing.
GW has succeeded previously on this model, but seems to be pushing the boundaries of how far it can take this. The current thought seems to reduce the entry barriers by simplifying rules and allowing smaller, more diverse forces. Likewise, the push has been to expand model ranges to drive sales. Prices continue to rise, increasing margins, but also continuing to increase the cost of entry and making it less desirable compared to other entertainment and hobby choices.
I don't have the data to back this up but to me feels like the bold part is really important and also when GW started to stagnate (sales wise).
I remember when they could sell "the game" with a box of Space Marines and starter paint set and both were about the cost of a 40€ game (± a bit). And then they could sell more stuff later on for a small army that is play-worthy without needing many hundreds of Euros of startup cost. It was manageable for a young teenager (with some help from their parents). That was something they could sell to the parents as a more social alternative than sitting in front of the TV all day (and it's true to a degree).
Once GW lost that option to position its product as a better alternative to video games (which is an easy comparison for parents who know just a tiny bit about their kids' more obscure hobbies) GW's games had to stand on their own feet and then it's harder to justify all the followup cost. At some point after that GW shifted from the premium game pieces/toys ("Porsche of the miniature industry") to the more "collectors will buy it at any cost" exclusives/limited editions way of selling stuff.
And now they are trying to reduce the cost with GW board games (huge discount on their plastic and don't really compete with regular boardgames), new lines (harlequins/AM/…), "more drastic" new editions, and going for different game sizes (that's something they already kinda had with Specialist Games).
It's the same price today if you adjust for inflation.
Starter sets are about 100 bucks and let two players start.
I think old players have this bias that 40K is minimum 1500 (or 2000) points, and that's also probably why there's a massive point cost inflation built into 8th: to help reset that "minimum size game".
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-Loki- wrote: Further to the pricing argument, lets look at the new starter. I'll be talking Australian prices, because that's where I live.
Dark Imperium is $220au. Granted, you do get a fair amount of miniatures, but that's a serious chunk of change.
Here it's 125€ . I'm not sure the GW - AU problem is really a good reference point though.
I'm guessing they'll work on that "soon".
From the sounds of things, the general impression seems to be that 8th edition is going to be better than the previous version.
From an external perspective, I'm glad for the newcomers coming into wargaming via a GW store and for people that will only ever sample the one game. Think it's a good thing that there seems to be some modicum of attempt to balance and make a fun, less unwieldy system.
Beyond the background though, which has steadily been butchered*, I'm not sure what they can do to pull back 'outsiders' who may have played 40k years ago but have long since moved onto historicals, Infinity, Armada or whatever, as that bridge will have already been burned in a lot of cases and will require much time, money and enthusiasm to rebuild. So I don't think you'll get much from that area, but will probably pick up the newbies who are coming into wargaming (as has been the case for 40k for a long time, actually). At least some new sets that are slightly less wallet-busting might be a help in that area.
*By this I mean it has now changed so radically from its original conception through the first two editions, it will put off people (like me) who liked that original concept, less so the modern direction.
Spiky Norman wrote: With the Battleforce boxes, the Start Collecting boxes, Skirmish boxes, boxed boardgames that contain a ton of minis, it has never been cheaper to get into the hobby
Pedantic but necessary point: it has never been cheaper to get into Games Workshop
I just bought two boxes of Wargames Factory WW2 Americans/Germans for $7.89 a box (30 good quality figures + options per box), and a box of 10 Eisenkern soldiers for $19.00.
Hell, at the tail end of 5th, I bought the Black Reach set for about $80. Don't even get me started about the Eldar and Tau battleforce boxes from the 90's. Forget the cost - the number of miniatures that came with those sets (about twice that in a Start Collecting box) makes the current offerings look pathetic. GW has been jacking up prices AND cutting model count for years now, and everybody just asks for another shot in the arm.
GW's prices are so jacked that their "discounted" sets are STILL about 20% over the cost they should be. And their rules are still phoned-in insults to the customer.
What a crock, indeed. You can't compare Dreamforge's Memorial Day fire sale prices of former-WGF historicals to regular full-priced sci-fi models from GW. A more honest comparison would be those Eisenkern for their full price, and while you're at it, compare the WGF Americans and Germans to Warlord's ones (or Warlord's ex-WGF range. The Samurai range, perhaps?) Black Reach model counts can't really be compared to the standard sets, or even the Start Collecting boxes. Apples and Oranges, since you're comparing starter-set push-fits to their "premium" line of multiparts. The 12" Battle Forces are a more apt comparison. I honestly can't directly compare the value propositions of those 90s-noughties sets, though, since I bought those locally, and now import my SC boxes.
And yes, GW's models are still expensive. Insanely so in many cases. And that's not even counting me being an Aussie (though I import my GW models, the embargo can go feth itself).
Ultimately though, you can rage all you like. GW doesn't care that much, and as someone who stopped buying GW stuff for a few years, I don't care either. I mean, you're an intelligent adult. You can buy (or not buy) whatever you like, and you can play (or not play) whatever you like as well. I haven't played 40k since ....5th? I haven't played WHFB since 4th or maybe 5th (a bloody long time ago). I've been playing Kings of War, SAGA, etc since then. I've got my Bolt Action, my Lion/Dragon Rampant, and a stack of other Osprey and Warlord rulesets and more besides. SBH, X-Wing, WarPath, Terminator, Wrath of Kings, Hell Dorado, Judge Dredd, Darklands, Blood Eagle.. I haven't read let alone played them all, but I've greatly enjoyed supporting smaller companies and alternative products, and I still do to this day.
However, I've played and enjoyed a couple of games of AoS. I don't care for or about the background, but the rules are fine and give me another way to use my models. The stupidity/insult phase of the AoS game is in the past (Kirby again) and they've made efforts to get past that. I like the look of Nu-40k. Certainly a lot more than the off-putting nightmare clusterfeth of 6th-7th, so I'll happily give it a go again.
if you, Fenrir, Korinov, et al choose not to buy their models or play their games, than that's a fair and reasonable choice. It's one I myself made for quite a few years until somewhat recently. I was praying for GW to go down and for Hasbro to buy them out, to be quite honest. Anything had to be better than what they had become. At this point, they've shown enough that I'm ok to buy (from alt sources) and play again. If I become unhappy with it all, I'll stop. Again.
I think one of the main issues with this thread was the emotive language used in the OP, which was a bit too fawning IMO. Thus a reaction is spawned and the rage-hate comes out. Here's my take on it. Legitimate complaints are always justified. The trick is not getting so invested in them and bent out of shape that you come across as a bitter ex or even a psycho ex, which happens a wee bit too often, especially on the internets. It reveals a bit to much emotional investment in things that people claim to not care about anymore. Much better to instead to choose not to care much or follow GW, and instead invest that energy in supporting the games and companies that you prefer.
Yeah, old stuff has been bundled together and received small discounts. Care to see what's happening with new models? 40€ Rubric Marines? 45€ Wulfen (five models)? 45€ TS sorcerers (three models)? 29€ Kharn (a single infantry model)? These are NOT exceptions to the rule, it's happening with pretty much every new release. It's absurdly insane in comparison to what every other company is doing in regards to plastic models.
Can't wait to see what's going to happen with the first models during new edition. Gonna be surprised if the Death Guard models aren't at least as expensive as the Wulfen.
I see this reasoning a lot. 'The bundles make 40k cheap'. They don't. They make starting40k cheap. But no one is simply buying 2-3 bundles and calling it a day. Once you have bought a couple of 'discounted' bundles, you'll want to spice it up with more interesting units, and then you're back to paying their standard, absurd pricing.
Here's the thing. If 40k (or GW's Fantasy) models are too expensive for you, then don't buy the models. What I mean by that isn't "you can't afford it, you pauper", because we're not 12 years old. *NSFW* I mean if the price is more than you're willing to pay/the price is not worthwhile for you personally. If you want to play but aren't ok with paying the asking price, there are tons of proxies out there. Most (sadly) attempt to follow GW"s pricing model, but don't manage to attract quite the premium price that GW does, though some outstrip GW's prices for a lot of stuff. That's without discussing "alternative" models from China, either, which seems to often come up but we won't get into here.
Hell, if you don't want to pay for the rules, then it's pretty easy to get around that,
Because internet.
Or you can just play Warpath instead, with Mantic's models. Or Antares, with Warlord's models. Or any other game, including the ones discussed here, with the models that you have or like or find reasonably priced.
I guess what I'm saying is that no-one is obliged to pay more than they're willing to for models, or play with rules they dislike. But my the same token, no-one is entitled to Kharn for $5 either.
I'm going to use the "Ferrari argument". You can call it the "Apple" argument just as easily. You don't need one and aren't entitled to one. It's a premium product at a premium price. If you don't think it's worth that premium, then don't pay it. It might not even be the best fit for your needs. You might have a similar product that works just as well or better for you. A Ferrari isn't the best for for me to get to work, and I'm not fond of iTunes or Apple, so I don't have either. I personally can't afford the Ferrari, and I don't think the iPad/iPhone are worth the money for what they do. At the same time, I don't feel obliged nor entitled to either of them, and instead I pretty much ignore both, and still don't give a gak if others want to buy them.
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Torga_DW wrote: I would also point out that while their 'start playing' boxes represent an overall savings, their individual contents are very hit and miss as to performance in the game. Look at the marine starter boxes for 7th - a tactical squad equivalent, a termie hq and a dreadnought/baal predator. They may be more viable in 8th (or not, we'll see how it goes) but for 7th they were sub-optimal units. It felt more like a way to shift low-selling kits than it did to encourage entry into the game.
Having another look at what's available, the eldar one seems decent due to the scat bikes, the space wolves due to the thunder wolves, and the tyranids due to the flyrant. But in most cases it would still work out cheaper to buy the individual models and not pay extra for the suboptimal discounted models.
I really don't think they were sitting on mountains of plastic that they needed to shift. They control their own production facilities. They're not placing orders to China (excepting the bases, and a few specific items) or even Renedra and hoping that they can manage to sell them.
The whole "optimal or GTFO" attitude is the opposite of why I'm personally in this hobby, and is an unfortunate melding of a gamer attitude that I detest with the sheer fething laziness and incompetence of GW's rules writers for so, so many years. Balance is good, however - and while a game with this many moving parts will never be 100% balanced, improved balance and the ability to easily update point costs are big pluses to myself in getting me interested in 40k again.
You don't have rank and file in Infinity. And yes, it's metal, so individual models are more expensive because production costs are higher - molds need to be replaced frequently, the material is more expensive.
Okay so metal. No wonder.Plastic models you sell only one or maybe two per customer is NEVER going to be as cheap as metal model unless there's new breakthrough in plastic production. End of story.
Then why can smaller companies sell individual models for less? Wyrd are by no means cheap, but their individual models are a quarter of the cost in Australia.
Regional pricing. Which as I'm sure you'll agree with me, is bs.
While I make the choice to buy GW products again these days, I also make the choice to purchase from overseas. It'd be nice to buy locally, but as with so much other stuff in this country well beyond toy soldiers, manufacturer and middleman greed inflate the price to unreasonable levels. Regardless of what Gerry Harvey thinks. Battlefront/Flames of War stuff is almost as bad as GW, and even "reasonable" stuff like Warlord etc is sold for silly levels of markup locally compared to purchasing directly from Warlord or especially indie retailers. Once again, even beyond Gerry and Malcolm's 10%.
From an external perspective, I'm glad for the newcomers coming into wargaming via a GW store and for people that will only ever sample the one game. Think it's a good thing that there seems to be some modicum of attempt to balance and make a fun, less unwieldy system.
More players into the hobby via GW is still ultimately a good thing for all of us, and the other companies in the space. How many of us and the current historical players got started with 40k or WHFB before getting into WW2 or Napoleonics or Ancients or Dark Ages or other Fantasy/Sci-Fi options etc as we got older?
You know the saying that "THIS IS THE BEST SET EVER PUT OUT...."?
As far as GW is concerned, this one is a very good start as far as starter sets.
Combine that with the Army Painter colored primers, and you can be playing within a couple of hours with a starter set that you can get right to work with, in addition to the stuff that has been languishing in your back closet for the past five or six years... without missing a beat.
The conversion books, as well, as far as current, are a great jumping off point, to even make the decision to downsize, and start culling your herd.
I can confidently say that you can make up the price in resale, if you are so inclined.
The real problem people are going to have is too many games, not enough time.
All I can do to respond to the original topic question is detail my thoughts and feelings after 5+ years away from ANY GW games and coming back for 40K 8e.
The local hype is exciting my sub-crowd of the old guard, because we remember how much fun we had with early, back-of-the-book-lists 3rd edition. I'm using the interest to finally get around to painting up the Chaos Space Marines I bought 15 years ago for a Codex: Eye of Terror listed Lost and the Damned force. I'm aiming for about 750 points, 1000 at the most, because in the years since I stopped playing 40K I've (re)learned to appreciate the company scale of around 3 squads, a characters, and a vehicle.
I'm probably going to be picking up the Index: Chaos because I'm tired of flipping through an Imgur album and magnifying individual pages to read the unit entries and then go hunting for the points. I may buy the Forgeworld Index for the Imperial Guard so I can use the 40 mutants I painted up over a decade ago, just to lose them when the next edition codex hit. But that's pretty much it. I'm not a big fan of the current GW aesthetic, because to me their "intricately detailed premium miniatures" really means "overwrought eyesores." Also, I thought maybe I'd like to add a Predator or Vindicator, and discovered that they're not damned near $60 USD. For the exact same kit I used to pay $35-40 for. Screw that.
One thing I'm definitely NOT doing is flogging off my other games, and certainly not Deadzone or Warpath. My return to 40K is a lark. Something to do with miniatures I wanted to paint for 15 years now. I'll try 8th edition; I hope I like it. But I'll stick to small points and probably to open and narrative play. If I don't like it, I'll just add these Chaos Marines to the pile of GW stuff I plan to flog on eBay anyway. What I WON'T do is get caught up in playing this weird 28mm Epic that 6th and 7th turned into. I'd rather play that at 6mm or 10mm, thanks. Hell, this might turn out to just be something to do while I wait from my GCPS vehicles from the Warpath Kickstarter to finally get produced and shipped.
My time away from GW has opened my eyes to what wargaming can (and in my opinion, should) be without a publicly-owned corporation with aspirations of global-scale marketing trying to dictate what my hobby should be. I'm not going to leave 'the competition' by any means, I'm just adding GW back in - on a sort of probation. That's all.
All I can do to respond to the original topic question is detail my thoughts and feelings after 5+ years away from ANY GW games and coming back for 40K 8e.
The local hype is exciting my sub-crowd of the old guard, because we remember how much fun we had with early, back-of-the-book-lists 3rd edition. I'm using the interest to finally get around to painting up the Chaos Space Marines I bought 15 years ago for a Codex: Eye of Terror listed Lost and the Damned force. I'm aiming for about 750 points, 1000 at the most, because in the years since I stopped playing 40K I've (re)learned to appreciate the company scale of around 3 squads, a characters, and a vehicle.
I'm probably going to be picking up the Index: Chaos because I'm tired of flipping through an Imgur album and magnifying individual pages to read the unit entries and then go hunting for the points. I may buy the Forgeworld Index for the Imperial Guard so I can use the 40 mutants I painted up over a decade ago, just to lose them when the next edition codex hit. But that's pretty much it. I'm not a big fan of the current GW aesthetic, because to me their "intricately detailed premium miniatures" really means "overwrought eyesores." Also, I thought maybe I'd like to add a Predator or Vindicator, and discovered that they're not damned near $60 USD. For the exact same kit I used to pay $35-40 for. Screw that.
One thing I'm definitely NOT doing is flogging off my other games, and certainly not Deadzone or Warpath. My return to 40K is a lark. Something to do with miniatures I wanted to paint for 15 years now. I'll try 8th edition; I hope I like it. But I'll stick to small points and probably to open and narrative play. If I don't like it, I'll just add these Chaos Marines to the pile of GW stuff I plan to flog on eBay anyway. What I WON'T do is get caught up in playing this weird 28mm Epic that 6th and 7th turned into. I'd rather play that at 6mm or 10mm, thanks. Hell, this might turn out to just be something to do while I wait from my GCPS vehicles from the Warpath Kickstarter to finally get produced and shipped.
My time away from GW has opened my eyes to what wargaming can (and in my opinion, should) be without a publicly-owned corporation with aspirations of global-scale marketing trying to dictate what my hobby should be. I'm not going to leave 'the competition' by any means, I'm just adding GW back in - on a sort of probation. That's all.
I have to say that those who are bemoaning the full rule book being put in the new starter box have got it wrong,
while it may be annoying that it's pushed the price up (and they've no doubt got old rule books with the background in already
For new players the starter DOES need to have background information in it, it's what makes GW the cool kid on the block (when you're 12 anyway), it's a significant part of the reason they are still around when competitors with better rules have fallen away
so having that hook in the starter box is important to keep the new buyers interested...... Most of us spend far more time reading about 40K than actually playing after all
(and since the background has actually changed this time round even those of use who do have old rule books will probably find the new one worth having for the new background)
morgoth wrote:
It's the same price today if you adjust for inflation.
Starter sets are about 100 bucks and let two players start.
I think old players have this bias that 40K is minimum 1500 (or 2000) points, and that's also probably why there's a massive point cost inflation built into 8th: to help reset that "minimum size game".
Is it really or is that just a very recent thing? Haven't price comparisons (somewhere on dakkadakka even) shown that GW increased prices beyond inflation? And that on top of making rules that needed more miniatures with each edition while at the same time reducing the number of miniatures per box. I haven't bought GW stuff in some time but — even accounting for this being a niche luxury hobby that's a bit on the expensive side — GW's prices still look more out of line than what I remember (I roughly remember the price evolution from the mid 90s to about the mid 00s).
I think by 2010 they made Forgeworld prices look nearly reasonable (I prefer FW's crisper details and the less skullified aesthetic which justified the higher prices even more in this comparison).
Price increases being inline with inflation are going to depend on the point in time you pick. As well as the currency. There was a good 5 years where GW was doing across the board price increases well above the rate of inflation. Then they switched to a practice of only pricing the new releases higher and doing the occasional spot adjustment.
Currency fluctuations are also something very time based. From 2002 through 2008, countries like Australia and Canada had very strong currencies as resource prices were very high. They have since declined part way back to their pre-commodity boom levels. So if you make currency comparisons in GW prices at different times things can get skewed.
If I were to pick an arbitrary point in time, it would be when I first got back into 40k in the mid/late 90s. I'm getting back into 40k now, so if we say an even 20 years, then prices are looking pretty good.
Plastic squad box of space marines $28 for 10 2nd edition plastics. Monopose with flamer, missile launcher, no bits/options. In today's dollars: $40.48. The current tactical squad costs $50 but you get the missile launcher, flamer and 3 other special weapons and a combiweapon. As well as options for the squad leader.
If the comparison is for plastic tactical squad to plastic tactical squad, prices are higher than adjusted for inflation. If you want to count the weapon options and parts, then it's not. Metal special weapon guys were 2 for $13 and heavy weapon guys were 1 for $13.
Termigants were 6 for $16 in plastic 20 years ago. Flesh borers, monopose, not bits. Adjusted for inflation is 23.13 (~3.86 each) Now they are 12 for $34.75 (~2.90 each) but you can pose them a slight amount and you get spine fists, devourers, fleshborers and a ripper swarm base.
Start Collecting boxes are definitely less than inflation adjusted prices pretty much across the board, though I'm not sure what to compare things like plague drones too. Anything like that would have been a metal character/monster and would have been $28, 35 or 42 depending on how big it was.
