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tneva82 wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

That may be GW's position on pricing, but other game manufacturers do fine without such pricing strategies. For example, Infinity special characters are priced the same as regular models. They price based on the overall production cost, not the quantity of that model they intend for you to buy or in game impact, because those are irrelevant.

What's the material? Metal or resin? If those it's actually huge difference to plastic models in terms of 1 model price being cheap. And of course isn't infinity small scale game so basically every model is low sale(unlike say 40k where difference can be easily 10+ times sprues for unit sold per player rather than 1 for special character) and price for models seems to be more expensive all around. Rank&file are even more pricey than GW prices.

You don't have rank and file in Infinity. And yes, it's metal, so individual models are more expensive because production costs are higher - molds need to be replaced frequently, the material is more expensive.

While GW use plastic molds, they absolutely massively inflate their prices more than the competition. Once a plastic mold is tooled, it costs pennies to produce a sprue, and the machines hammer them out quickly. This price inflation is shown in a lot of other very cheap plastic ranges, particularly historicals. There's no reason for GW's plastic to be as expensive as they are, except that they know their customers will pay it. Even on a single sprue character like Kharne, who is (if they do them anything like the original single sprue characters for Fantasy) 4 different characters to a mold, they just pump out 4 characters at a time for pennies. Any one of them that sells is making many, many times more than any other company on a plastic kit. Multiple that by 4 because they're getting 4 individual models off that mold.

Not all companies sell plastic cheap. Wyrd prices them high, but still not nearly GW's level with individual models sitting about half what GW charges, and their starter crews sitting at about squad box prices. But they can get away with it because you'll almost never buy the same set twice and to compete you'll only need a few purchases over a starter, whereas you might buy 4-5 of a set from GW.

Even discounting the massively inflated price of their plastics, what makes GW's games expensive is the quantity of models. If buying a 'start collecting' box and an extra squad or two got you a complete force that could play competitively, there would be a lot less complaints. Not none, but a lot less. But that's just the start to a 40k army, and once you start adding more squads, more bundles, more vehicles, more monstrous creatures to get to the common standard points cost (when I played back in 6th it hovered between 1500pts/2000pts), the price baloons to massive amounts.

It's an interesting design issue. You want a product with a low barrier to entry that encourages additional purchase. Magic is a really good example. Buy a starter deck for under $20 and you are ready to play. Not well,mind you, but at least fun games. Boosters expand your options at $4 a pop and there is an active trading/draft scene so you get to get into the community. You can potentially spend unlimited amounts, but it is not necessary, especially for casual play. And all you need to play is your cards and a table, counter, etc.

Now look at Warhammer. To have a playable force of models you are looking at 1500-2000 points or so. The "Start Collecting force" Gives you an HQ, some termies, a tac and a dread. Not enough for a "real force" but meets the technical requirements so let's go with it. You now have $85 worth of plastic that has to be assembled. And no rules. So you buy the rules. Last I checked, the rules clock in at a whopping $80 with a Codex at $50 or so, meaning you shell out around $130 for rules! So now you are over $200 and still don't have 1 painted model or any terrain. So you drop some more money on paint and glue, and use some felt and cardboard terrain or play at a store. Then you invest hours assembling your plastic. Congratulations! You can now play a barely functional force that you will have to drop $50 or so per element to expand and then assemble and paint.

GW knows that it's existing players tend to be pretty price insensitive, but you are looking at a buy in comparable to a new video game system with an additional time cost. That's a pretty stiff obstacle.

Even compared to other miniature lines, it is near the top. That doesn't seem to be changing.

GW has succeeded previously on this model, but seems to be pushing the boundaries of how far it can take this. The current thought seems to reduce the entry barriers by simplifying rules and allowing smaller, more diverse forces. Likewise, the push has been to expand model ranges to drive sales. Prices continue to rise, increasing margins, but also continuing to increase the cost of entry and making it less desirable compared to other entertainment and hobby choices.

About 2 years ago, I bought some GW textured paint. Pretty good stuff and now it's finished. Whilst looking around for a replacement, I checked Tamiya and Vallejo to see if they had their version.

Turns out they did. 10 x more product than GW's offering and roughly the same price.

The competition will be getting my money

I think the absurd amount of hype going around will ultimately kick GW between the legs more than anything else. Whilst excitement is of course healthy, the sheer absurdity of people's expectations - from both long-term fanboys and returning players alike - is rather stark. Maybe I'm just too cynical, but I've seen so, so, many otherwise rational people who seem to think this will completely overhaul both the company AND game in a swift 180, with amazing and well-thought out rules.

I mean when the barrier to reach for was set so damn low you're obviously going to impress SOMEBODY with your changes, but we've had so many months of people being drip fed hype that it's ultimately going to come back around and knock people for six when it turns out, actually, it's a damn good improvement but not the Second Coming just about every tabletop site would have you believe.

Ah 8th is most definitely not the 2nd coming imo.
It has a lot of improvements over 6-7th but some serious flaws too.
In addition a lot of the unit rules really havent changed that much or been reinvented or made interesting (tervi spawning, warp spider jumps, swooping hawk skyleap, necron Rp, ork morale - the list is endless).
They are a rehash of either current 7th rules or previous iterations which is my biggest disappointment.

 jmurph wrote:
GW knows that it's existing players tend to be pretty price insensitive, but you are looking at a buy in comparable to a new video game system with an additional time cost. That's a pretty stiff obstacle.

Even compared to other miniature lines, it is near the top. That doesn't seem to be changing.

GW has succeeded previously on this model, but seems to be pushing the boundaries of how far it can take this. The current thought seems to reduce the entry barriers by simplifying rules and allowing smaller, more diverse forces. Likewise, the push has been to expand model ranges to drive sales. Prices continue to rise, increasing margins, but also continuing to increase the cost of entry and making it less desirable compared to other entertainment and hobby choices.

I don't have the data to back this up but to me feels like the bold part is really important and also when GW started to stagnate (sales wise).

I remember when they could sell "the game" with a box of Space Marines and starter paint set and both were about the cost of a 40€ game (± a bit). And then they could sell more stuff later on for a small army that is play-worthy without needing many hundreds of Euros of startup cost. It was manageable for a young teenager (with some help from their parents). That was something they could sell to the parents as a more social alternative than sitting in front of the TV all day (and it's true to a degree).

Once GW lost that option to position its product as a better alternative to video games (which is an easy comparison for parents who know just a tiny bit about their kids' more obscure hobbies) GW's games had to stand on their own feet and then it's harder to justify all the followup cost. At some point after that GW shifted from the premium game pieces/toys ("Porsche of the miniature industry") to the more "collectors will buy it at any cost" exclusives/limited editions way of selling stuff.

And now they are trying to reduce the cost with GW board games (huge discount on their plastic and don't really compete with regular boardgames), new lines (harlequins/AM/…), "more drastic" new editions, and going for different game sizes (that's something they already kinda had with Specialist Games).

 -Loki- wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

That may be GW's position on pricing, but other game manufacturers do fine without such pricing strategies. For example, Infinity special characters are priced the same as regular models. They price based on the overall production cost, not the quantity of that model they intend for you to buy or in game impact, because those are irrelevant.

What's the material? Metal or resin? If those it's actually huge difference to plastic models in terms of 1 model price being cheap. And of course isn't infinity small scale game so basically every model is low sale(unlike say 40k where difference can be easily 10+ times sprues for unit sold per player rather than 1 for special character) and price for models seems to be more expensive all around. Rank&file are even more pricey than GW prices.

You don't have rank and file in Infinity. And yes, it's metal, so individual models are more expensive because production costs are higher - molds need to be replaced frequently, the material is more expensive.

While GW use plastic molds, they absolutely massively inflate their prices more than the competition. Once a plastic mold is tooled, it costs pennies to produce a sprue, and the machines hammer them out quickly. This price inflation is shown in a lot of other very cheap plastic ranges, particularly historicals. There's no reason for GW's plastic to be as expensive as they are, except that they know their customers will pay it. Even on a single sprue character like Kharne, who is (if they do them anything like the original single sprue characters for Fantasy) 4 different characters to a mold, they just pump out 4 characters at a time for pennies. Any one of them that sells is making many, many times more than any other company on a plastic kit. Multiple that by 4 because they're getting 4 individual models off that mold.

Not all companies sell plastic cheap. Wyrd prices them high, but still not nearly GW's level with individual models sitting about half what GW charges, and their starter crews sitting at about squad box prices. But they can get away with it because you'll almost never buy the same set twice and to compete you'll only need a few purchases over a starter, whereas you might buy 4-5 of a set from GW.

Even discounting the massively inflated price of their plastics, what makes GW's games expensive is the quantity of models. If buying a 'start collecting' box and an extra squad or two got you a complete force that could play competitively, there would be a lot less complaints. Not none, but a lot less. But that's just the start to a 40k army, and once you start adding more squads, more bundles, more vehicles, more monstrous creatures to get to the common standard points cost (when I played back in 6th it hovered between 1500pts/2000pts), the price baloons to massive amounts.

Like Privateer Press and CMoN (WoK), Wyrd is not just selling you the plastic miniatures in the box, they are also selling you the full rules for each model in the box.

I would also point out that while their 'start playing' boxes represent an overall savings, their individual contents are very hit and miss as to performance in the game. Look at the marine starter boxes for 7th - a tactical squad equivalent, a termie hq and a dreadnought/baal predator. They may be more viable in 8th (or not, we'll see how it goes) but for 7th they were sub-optimal units. It felt more like a way to shift low-selling kits than it did to encourage entry into the game.

Having another look at what's available, the eldar one seems decent due to the scat bikes, the space wolves due to the thunder wolves, and the tyranids due to the flyrant. But in most cases it would still work out cheaper to buy the individual models and not pay extra for the suboptimal discounted models.

morgoth wrote:

Now that GW has pulled their head out of their ass and is making awesome rules and solid balance, I'm sure many leavers will come back and many new players will pick 40K.

How much do you think this will ruin the day of games like WMH which can't compete on models and only ever grew like weeds because GW wasn't tending their backyard.

I personally think they're going to see a solid drop around the launch and then a continuous loss of popularity as even the most entrenched 40k haters go back to the miniatures they truly love.

It's less clear that it would affect micro games like x wing though but they're not in the same category imo, that's more BFG.

lol balanced

 ForceChoke wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Now that GW has pulled their head out of their ass and is making awesome rules and solid balance, I'm sure many leavers will come back and many new players will pick 40K.

How much do you think this will ruin the day of games like WMH which can't compete on models and only ever grew like weeds because GW wasn't tending their backyard.

I personally think they're going to see a solid drop around the launch and then a continuous loss of popularity as even the most entrenched 40k haters go back to the miniatures they truly love.

It's less clear that it would affect micro games like x wing though but they're not in the same category imo, that's more BFG.

lol balanced

From the reports we are hearing it kind of is "balanced": maybe not perfect, though.

Good, perfect balance means watered down uniqueness that approaches bland.

I'll personally take good enough.

Further to the pricing argument, lets look at the new starter. I'll be talking Australian prices, because that's where I live.

Dark Imperium is $220au. Granted, you do get a fair amount of miniatures, but that's a serious chunk of change.

Lets look at some of the non Warmachine competition.

Dropzone Commander is $140au. That comes with a cardstock cityscape.

Dropfleet Commander is $125au. That comes with cardstock space-scape.

Infinity has two, Operation Ice Storm and Operation Red Veil. Both are $118au, and come with quite a bit of cardstock terrain.

Malifaux is $90au. It has no terrain, though they did bundle in a pair of Fate decks, which is kind of important since your dice collection are useless.

Batman, the most expensive so far, is $180au, and comes with a pair of cardstock buildings.

Maelstroms Edge is $100au.

Beyond the Gates of Antares is $175au.

There's not a single starter I can find that's up there with the starter for 40k 8th, and most, even those that are almost half the price, tend to bundle in enough terrain for a game as well. Only two are getting up there but still sit about 20% cheaper. One is well under half the cost. Even the two player battleboxes for Warmachine, often said to be as expensive as 40k, are sitting at half the price, $110au.

If I was a parent taking some kids to an FLGS to grab their first tabletop game, I'd be seriously questioning the price.

morgoth wrote:

Now that GW has pulled their head out of their ass and is making awesome rules and solid balance, I'm sure many leavers will come back and many new players will pick 40K.

How much do you think this will ruin the day of games like WMH which can't compete on models and only ever grew like weeds because GW wasn't tending their backyard.

I personally think they're going to see a solid drop around the launch and then a continuous loss of popularity as even the most entrenched 40k haters go back to the miniatures they truly love.

It's less clear that it would affect micro games like x wing though but they're not in the same category imo, that's more BFG.

Biased post is Biased...

You are forgetting this little gem. with your air of superiority.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arbitrator wrote:
I think the absurd amount of hype going around will ultimately kick GW between the legs more than anything else. Whilst excitement is of course healthy, the sheer absurdity of people's expectations - from both long-term fanboys and returning players alike - is rather stark. Maybe I'm just too cynical, but I've seen so, so, many otherwise rational people who seem to think this will completely overhaul both the company AND game in a swift 180, with amazing and well-thought out rules.

I mean when the barrier to reach for was set so damn low you're obviously going to impress SOMEBODY with your changes, but we've had so many months of people being drip fed hype that it's ultimately going to come back around and knock people for six when it turns out, actually, it's a damn good improvement but not the Second Coming just about every tabletop site would have you believe.

And YOU sir, have the best post of the thread. Congratulations on Realistic expectations.

 -Loki- wrote:
Further to the pricing argument, lets look at the new starter. I'll be talking Australian prices, because that's where I live.

Dark Imperium is $220au. Granted, you do get a fair amount of miniatures, but that's a serious chunk of change.

Lets look at some of the non Warmachine competition.

Dropzone Commander is $140au. That comes with a cardstock cityscape.

Dropfleet Commander is $125au. That comes with cardstock space-scape.

Infinity has two, Operation Ice Storm and Operation Red Veil. Both are $118au, and come with quite a bit of cardstock terrain.

Malifaux is $90au. It has no terrain, though they did bundle in a pair of Fate decks, which is kind of important since your dice collection are useless.

Batman, the most expensive so far, is $180au, and comes with a pair of cardstock buildings.

Maelstroms Edge is $100au.

Beyond the Gates of Antares is $175au.

There's not a single starter I can find that's up there with the starter for 40k 8th, and most, even those that are almost half the price, tend to bundle in enough terrain for a game as well. Only two are getting up there but still sit about 20% cheaper. One is well under half the cost. Even the two player battleboxes for Warmachine, often said to be as expensive as 40k, are sitting at half the price, $110au.

If I was a parent taking some kids to an FLGS to grab their first tabletop game, I'd be seriously questioning the price.

Don't forget in Dark Imperium,you're getting the full-size, hard back rulebook and I'd wager this is what pushes the price above $200. If it were the A5 pamphlet style, it'd probably be cheaper. Also worth noticing is that you don't get the full rules with the Malifaux starter- you have to buy the BRB ($60ish AUD), the little RB ($20ish AUD) or download the little RB online (free). I have no idea what rules you get with infinity, but their hardback BRB is $100 here. Comparing 40k's starter with Spire of Dawn ($140- 2 almost complete armies, rules) and the AOS proper starter (was 200 AUD, now 150) there is a bit more variation in GW's starter price.

 SpinCycleDreadnought wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
Further to the pricing argument, lets look at the new starter. I'll be talking Australian prices, because that's where I live.

Dark Imperium is $220au. Granted, you do get a fair amount of miniatures, but that's a serious chunk of change.

Lets look at some of the non Warmachine competition.

Dropzone Commander is $140au. That comes with a cardstock cityscape.

Dropfleet Commander is $125au. That comes with cardstock space-scape.

Infinity has two, Operation Ice Storm and Operation Red Veil. Both are $118au, and come with quite a bit of cardstock terrain.

Malifaux is $90au. It has no terrain, though they did bundle in a pair of Fate decks, which is kind of important since your dice collection are useless.

Batman, the most expensive so far, is $180au, and comes with a pair of cardstock buildings.

Maelstroms Edge is $100au.

Beyond the Gates of Antares is $175au.

There's not a single starter I can find that's up there with the starter for 40k 8th, and most, even those that are almost half the price, tend to bundle in enough terrain for a game as well. Only two are getting up there but still sit about 20% cheaper. One is well under half the cost. Even the two player battleboxes for Warmachine, often said to be as expensive as 40k, are sitting at half the price, $110au.

If I was a parent taking some kids to an FLGS to grab their first tabletop game, I'd be seriously questioning the price.

Don't forget in Dark Imperium,you're getting the full-size, hard back rulebook and I'd wager this is what pushes the price above $200. If it were the A5 pamphlet style, it'd probably be cheaper. Also worth noticing is that you don't get the full rules with the Malifaux starter- you have to buy the BRB ($60ish AUD), the little RB ($20ish AUD) or download the little RB online (free). I have no idea what rules you get with infinity, but their hardback BRB is $100 here. Comparing 40k's starter with Spire of Dawn ($140- 2 almost complete armies, rules) and the AOS proper starter (was 200 AUD, now 150) there is a bit more variation in GW's starter price.

Quite correct about the full, hardback rulebook pushing the price up. However, like so many things that make their products expensive, that was their choice to put it in there.

For Malifaux, you're kind of incorrect. You get the full rules as a download code, you're just expected to download the rules manual PDF from DrivethruRPG. The rules manual has all of the rules for the game, it's lacking the fluff and the unit cards for all of wave 1 which are only in the large book (and the unit cards are provided with the miniatures as you buy them, so it's more of an informative piece than a requirement to play the game). I'd have preferred the rules manual to be in the box, but I respect the reason it was left as a download for a small company. My only gripe is since they made the rules manual free for everyone, it's removed that $15 value from the set.

Infinity is the same. You get some quickstart rules that cover the basics of what's in the box, and you're expected to either download the rules from their website for free or buy the rule book if you want pretty art and fluff.

I deliberately wasn't comparing them to GW's other offerings, because a smart company doesn't see its own alternative products as competition. Also, I can admire what's in GW's starter. Something they always have is amazing production values. The books are gorgeous along with the miniatures they provide. However, again, it is their choice to put the hardcover rulebook in the starter, so it is their choice to have what is far and away the most expensive starter on the market.

Starter sets are gateway products. They're to entice you. The best thing Dark Impirium does is inform you of the overall cost of playing 40k. You're buying a really expensive kit with some great production values, and the followup purchases will be just as expensive compared to the rest of the market. They have to hope their aesthetic appeals to people and sells it hard, because they've got an uphill battle for enticing people entering the hobby.

I heard a rumour that Infinity seems to be hurting at the moment. I am not sure if that is due to a resurgent GW or just that problem that all companies face when they have been around long enough, in that people just run out of new things to buy.

 StygianBeach wrote:
I heard a rumour that Infinity seems to be hurting at the moment. I am not sure if that is due to a resurgent GW or just that problem that all companies face when they have been around long enough, in that people just run out of new things to buy.

I heard a rumour that Games Workshop was about to collapse any minute now.

 -Loki- wrote:

 StygianBeach wrote:
I heard a rumour that Infinity seems to be hurting at the moment. I am not sure if that is due to a resurgent GW or just that problem that all companies face when they have been around long enough, in that people just run out of new things to buy.

I heard a rumour that Games Workshop was about to collapse any minute now.

lol... I have been hearing that one since 1999.

 StygianBeach wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 StygianBeach wrote:
I heard a rumour that Infinity seems to be hurting at the moment. I am not sure if that is due to a resurgent GW or just that problem that all companies face when they have been around long enough, in that people just run out of new things to buy.

I heard a rumour that Games Workshop was about to collapse any minute now.

lol... I have been hearing that one since 1999.

My point was, people start rumours all the time based on their own anecdotal evidence.

Anecdotally, I see no 40k played at my FLGS. I see Infinity and Malifaux played. That must mean GW is going to die and those two games will flourish.

I mustn't have anything do do with the fact that I don't mingle with the GW playing crowd and was one of the starting players of the Infinity and Malifaux groups. None at all.

 -Loki- wrote:

 StygianBeach wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 StygianBeach wrote:
I heard a rumour that Infinity seems to be hurting at the moment. I am not sure if that is due to a resurgent GW or just that problem that all companies face when they have been around long enough, in that people just run out of new things to buy.

I heard a rumour that Games Workshop was about to collapse any minute now.

lol... I have been hearing that one since 1999.

My point was, people start rumours all the time based on their own anecdotal evidence.

Anecdotally, I see no 40k played at my FLGS. I see Infinity and Malifaux played. That must mean GW is going to die and those two games will flourish.

I mustn't have anything do do with the fact that I don't mingle with the GW playing crowd and was one of the starting players of the Infinity and Malifaux groups. None at all.

Sure, but I stated it was only a rumour and not a fact., so I would imagine that taking what I posted with a gain of salt would be automatic.

 thekingofkings wrote:


Like Privateer Press and CMoN (WoK), Wyrd is not just selling you the plastic miniatures in the box, they are also selling you the full rules for each model in the box.

In theory GW said they wanted to do that for 40k 8th edition. Haven't bought anything for seven (and thank god) but I seem to recal someone sayingl they started doing that at the tail end of it. Nevertheless: they are doing so now.

I think 40k 8th is going to absolutely wreck its direct competitors (Beyond the Gates of Antares, Malestrom's Edge, Warpath), with perhaps less of an effect on its indirect competitors (X-Wing, Warmahordes). That said, its direct competitors aren't precisely flourishing as it stands, so that might be an easy prediction to make.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:


Like Privateer Press and CMoN (WoK), Wyrd is not just selling you the plastic miniatures in the box, they are also selling you the full rules for each model in the box.

In theory GW said they wanted to do that for 40k 8th edition. Haven't bought anything for seven (and thank god) but I seem to recal someone sayingl they started doing that at the tail end of it. Nevertheless: they are doing so now.

there were some stats, but no points or such. AoS gives the "full" rules if you are playing their no-points style, but otherwise they have not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kingsley wrote:
I think 40k 8th is going to absolutely wreck its direct competitors (Beyond the Gates of Antares, Malestrom's Edge, Warpath), with perhaps less of an effect on its indirect competitors (X-Wing, Warmahordes). That said, its direct competitors aren't precisely flourishing as it stands, so that might be an easy prediction to make.

I dont see it having really any effect at all, the warmahordes crowd are not going to stop playing for 40k (of any edition) and will keep recruiting as usual.

 -Loki- wrote:

You don't have rank and file in Infinity. And yes, it's metal, so individual models are more expensive because production costs are higher - molds need to be replaced frequently, the material is more expensive.

Okay so metal. No wonder.Plastic models you sell only one or maybe two per customer is NEVER going to be as cheap as metal model unless there's new breakthrough in plastic production. End of story.

While GW use plastic molds, they absolutely massively inflate their prices more than the competition. Once a plastic mold is tooled, it costs pennies to produce a sprue, and the machines hammer them out quickly.

Yes but mold costs lot more which you seem to forget.

Here's the basic system. You have mould that costs 100 to produce and you sell 10 units. To make even you need then to sell them at price of 10 before taking other factors.

If mold costs 10 then obviously price is much lower..-.

Plastic is not designed for individual models you don't sell multiples. It's designed for cheap mass production. Its designed for stuff you sell lots per customer. If you are looking for producing indiivual model to sell cheaply you look at metal or resin.

Anybody claiming plastic model you sell 1 per customer should be cheaper than equilavent in metal and resin has obviously not studied how things work at all.

Now is GW prices still too high? Yes but it's not as clear cut as it might seem.

tneva82 wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

You don't have rank and file in Infinity. And yes, it's metal, so individual models are more expensive because production costs are higher - molds need to be replaced frequently, the material is more expensive.

Okay so metal. No wonder.Plastic models you sell only one or maybe two per customer is NEVER going to be as cheap as metal model unless there's new breakthrough in plastic production. End of story.

Then why can smaller companies sell individual models for less? Wyrd are by no means cheap, but their individual models are a quarter of the cost in Australia.

tneva82 wrote:

While GW use plastic molds, they absolutely massively inflate their prices more than the competition. Once a plastic mold is tooled, it costs pennies to produce a sprue, and the machines hammer them out quickly.

Yes but mold costs lot more which you seem to forget.

I don't forget. Do you know how much cheaper it is to pump out sprues from a plastic mold? It's extremely cheap. Again, pennies per sprue. This is why plastic is cheaper from everyone else except GW.

tneva82 wrote:
Here's the basic system. You have mould that costs 100 to produce and you sell 10 units. To make even you need then to sell them at price of 10 before taking other factors.

If mold costs 10 then obviously price is much lower..-.

Plastic is not designed for individual models you don't sell multiples. It's designed for cheap mass production. Its designed for stuff you sell lots per customer. If you are looking for producing indiivual model to sell cheaply you look at metal or resin.

Anybody claiming plastic model you sell 1 per customer should be cheaper than equilavent in metal and resin has obviously not studied how things work at all.

Now is GW prices still too high? Yes but it's not as clear cut as it might seem.

Again. All of their competitors that product models in plastic do it cheaper. My previous example of Wyrd has an entire range of 'special characters' style sets where you never buy anything more than once. And they manage to beat GW in price.

It's amusing people still accept the logic of 'plastic molds are expensive, so your plastic are more expensive than resin and metal'.

Mario wrote:

 jmurph wrote:
GW knows that it's existing players tend to be pretty price insensitive, but you are looking at a buy in comparable to a new video game system with an additional time cost. That's a pretty stiff obstacle.

Even compared to other miniature lines, it is near the top. That doesn't seem to be changing.

GW has succeeded previously on this model, but seems to be pushing the boundaries of how far it can take this. The current thought seems to reduce the entry barriers by simplifying rules and allowing smaller, more diverse forces. Likewise, the push has been to expand model ranges to drive sales. Prices continue to rise, increasing margins, but also continuing to increase the cost of entry and making it less desirable compared to other entertainment and hobby choices.

I don't have the data to back this up but to me feels like the bold part is really important and also when GW started to stagnate (sales wise).

I remember when they could sell "the game" with a box of Space Marines and starter paint set and both were about the cost of a 40€ game (± a bit). And then they could sell more stuff later on for a small army that is play-worthy without needing many hundreds of Euros of startup cost. It was manageable for a young teenager (with some help from their parents). That was something they could sell to the parents as a more social alternative than sitting in front of the TV all day (and it's true to a degree).

Once GW lost that option to position its product as a better alternative to video games (which is an easy comparison for parents who know just a tiny bit about their kids' more obscure hobbies) GW's games had to stand on their own feet and then it's harder to justify all the followup cost. At some point after that GW shifted from the premium game pieces/toys ("Porsche of the miniature industry") to the more "collectors will buy it at any cost" exclusives/limited editions way of selling stuff.

And now they are trying to reduce the cost with GW board games (huge discount on their plastic and don't really compete with regular boardgames), new lines (harlequins/AM/…), "more drastic" new editions, and going for different game sizes (that's something they already kinda had with Specialist Games).

It's the same price today if you adjust for inflation.
Starter sets are about 100 bucks and let two players start.
I think old players have this bias that 40K is minimum 1500 (or 2000) points, and that's also probably why there's a massive point cost inflation built into 8th: to help reset that "minimum size game".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 -Loki- wrote:
Further to the pricing argument, lets look at the new starter. I'll be talking Australian prices, because that's where I live.

Dark Imperium is $220au. Granted, you do get a fair amount of miniatures, but that's a serious chunk of change.

Here it's 125€ . I'm not sure the GW - AU problem is really a good reference point though.
I'm guessing they'll work on that "soon".

From the sounds of things, the general impression seems to be that 8th edition is going to be better than the previous version.

From an external perspective, I'm glad for the newcomers coming into wargaming via a GW store and for people that will only ever sample the one game. Think it's a good thing that there seems to be some modicum of attempt to balance and make a fun, less unwieldy system.

Beyond the background though, which has steadily been butchered*, I'm not sure what they can do to pull back 'outsiders' who may have played 40k years ago but have long since moved onto historicals, Infinity, Armada or whatever, as that bridge will have already been burned in a lot of cases and will require much time, money and enthusiasm to rebuild. So I don't think you'll get much from that area, but will probably pick up the newbies who are coming into wargaming (as has been the case for 40k for a long time, actually). At least some new sets that are slightly less wallet-busting might be a help in that area.

*By this I mean it has now changed so radically from its original conception through the first two editions, it will put off people (like me) who liked that original concept, less so the modern direction.

rmeister0 wrote:

Spiky Norman wrote:
With the Battleforce boxes, the Start Collecting boxes, Skirmish boxes, boxed boardgames that contain a ton of minis, it has never been cheaper to get into the hobby

Pedantic but necessary point: it has never been cheaper to get into Games Workshop

That would depend on how old you are

 Stormonu wrote:
What A Crock.

I just bought two boxes of Wargames Factory WW2 Americans/Germans for $7.89 a box (30 good quality figures + options per box), and a box of 10 Eisenkern soldiers for $19.00.

Hell, at the tail end of 5th, I bought the Black Reach set for about $80. Don't even get me started about the Eldar and Tau battleforce boxes from the 90's. Forget the cost - the number of miniatures that came with those sets (about twice that in a Start Collecting box) makes the current offerings look pathetic. GW has been jacking up prices AND cutting model count for years now, and everybody just asks for another shot in the arm.

GW's prices are so jacked that their "discounted" sets are STILL about 20% over the cost they should be. And their rules are still phoned-in insults to the customer.

What a crock, indeed. You can't compare Dreamforge's Memorial Day fire sale prices of former-WGF historicals to regular full-priced sci-fi models from GW. A more honest comparison would be those Eisenkern for their full price, and while you're at it, compare the WGF Americans and Germans to Warlord's ones (or Warlord's ex-WGF range. The Samurai range, perhaps?) Black Reach model counts can't really be compared to the standard sets, or even the Start Collecting boxes. Apples and Oranges, since you're comparing starter-set push-fits to their "premium" line of multiparts. The 12" Battle Forces are a more apt comparison. I honestly can't directly compare the value propositions of those 90s-noughties sets, though, since I bought those locally, and now import my SC boxes.

And yes, GW's models are still expensive. Insanely so in many cases. And that's not even counting me being an Aussie (though I import my GW models, the embargo can go feth itself).

Ultimately though, you can rage all you like. GW doesn't care that much, and as someone who stopped buying GW stuff for a few years, I don't care either. I mean, you're an intelligent adult. You can buy (or not buy) whatever you like, and you can play (or not play) whatever you like as well. I haven't played 40k since ....5th? I haven't played WHFB since 4th or maybe 5th (a bloody long time ago). I've been playing Kings of War, SAGA, etc since then. I've got my Bolt Action, my Lion/Dragon Rampant, and a stack of other Osprey and Warlord rulesets and more besides. SBH, X-Wing, WarPath, Terminator, Wrath of Kings, Hell Dorado, Judge Dredd, Darklands, Blood Eagle.. I haven't read let alone played them all, but I've greatly enjoyed supporting smaller companies and alternative products, and I still do to this day.

However, I've played and enjoyed a couple of games of AoS. I don't care for or about the background, but the rules are fine and give me another way to use my models. The stupidity/insult phase of the AoS game is in the past (Kirby again) and they've made efforts to get past that. I like the look of Nu-40k. Certainly a lot more than the off-putting nightmare clusterfeth of 6th-7th, so I'll happily give it a go again.

if you, Fenrir, Korinov, et al choose not to buy their models or play their games, than that's a fair and reasonable choice. It's one I myself made for quite a few years until somewhat recently. I was praying for GW to go down and for Hasbro to buy them out, to be quite honest. Anything had to be better than what they had become. At this point, they've shown enough that I'm ok to buy (from alt sources) and play again. If I become unhappy with it all, I'll stop. Again.

I think one of the main issues with this thread was the emotive language used in the OP, which was a bit too fawning IMO. Thus a reaction is spawned and the rage-hate comes out. Here's my take on it. Legitimate complaints are always justified. The trick is not getting so invested in them and bent out of shape that you come across as a bitter ex or even a psycho ex, which happens a wee bit too often, especially on the internets. It reveals a bit to much emotional investment in things that people claim to not care about anymore. Much better to instead to choose not to care much or follow GW, and instead invest that energy in supporting the games and companies that you prefer.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
A lie?

Is this a joke?

Yeah, old stuff has been bundled together and received small discounts. Care to see what's happening with new models? 40€ Rubric Marines? 45€ Wulfen (five models)? 45€ TS sorcerers (three models)? 29€ Kharn (a single infantry model)? These are NOT exceptions to the rule, it's happening with pretty much every new release. It's absurdly insane in comparison to what every other company is doing in regards to plastic models.

Can't wait to see what's going to happen with the first models during new edition. Gonna be surprised if the Death Guard models aren't at least as expensive as the Wulfen.

I see this reasoning a lot. 'The bundles make 40k cheap'. They don't. They make starting 40k cheap. But no one is simply buying 2-3 bundles and calling it a day. Once you have bought a couple of 'discounted' bundles, you'll want to spice it up with more interesting units, and then you're back to paying their standard, absurd pricing.

Here's the thing. If 40k (or GW's Fantasy) models are too expensive for you, then don't buy the models. What I mean by that isn't "you can't afford it, you pauper", because we're not 12 years old. *NSFW* I mean if the price is more than you're willing to pay/the price is not worthwhile for you personally. If you want to play but aren't ok with paying the asking price, there are tons of proxies out there. Most (sadly) attempt to follow GW"s pricing model, but don't manage to attract quite the premium price that GW does, though some outstrip GW's prices for a lot of stuff. That's without discussing "alternative" models from China, either, which seems to often come up but we won't get into here.

Hell, if you don't want to pay for the rules, then it's pretty easy to get around that,
Because internet.

Or you can just play Warpath instead, with Mantic's models. Or Antares, with Warlord's models. Or any other game, including the ones discussed here, with the models that you have or like or find reasonably priced.


I guess what I'm saying is that no-one is obliged to pay more than they're willing to for models, or play with rules they dislike. But my the same token, no-one is entitled to Kharn for $5 either.


I'm going to use the "Ferrari argument". You can call it the "Apple" argument just as easily. You don't need one and aren't entitled to one. It's a premium product at a premium price. If you don't think it's worth that premium, then don't pay it. It might not even be the best fit for your needs. You might have a similar product that works just as well or better for you. A Ferrari isn't the best for for me to get to work, and I'm not fond of iTunes or Apple, so I don't have either. I personally can't afford the Ferrari, and I don't think the iPad/iPhone are worth the money for what they do. At the same time, I don't feel obliged nor entitled to either of them, and instead I pretty much ignore both, and still don't give a gak if others want to buy them.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Torga_DW wrote:
I would also point out that while their 'start playing' boxes represent an overall savings, their individual contents are very hit and miss as to performance in the game. Look at the marine starter boxes for 7th - a tactical squad equivalent, a termie hq and a dreadnought/baal predator. They may be more viable in 8th (or not, we'll see how it goes) but for 7th they were sub-optimal units. It felt more like a way to shift low-selling kits than it did to encourage entry into the game.

Having another look at what's available, the eldar one seems decent due to the scat bikes, the space wolves due to the thunder wolves, and the tyranids due to the flyrant. But in most cases it would still work out cheaper to buy the individual models and not pay extra for the suboptimal discounted models.

I really don't think they were sitting on mountains of plastic that they needed to shift. They control their own production facilities. They're not placing orders to China (excepting the bases, and a few specific items) or even Renedra and hoping that they can manage to sell them.

The whole "optimal or GTFO" attitude is the opposite of why I'm personally in this hobby, and is an unfortunate melding of a gamer attitude that I detest with the sheer fething laziness and incompetence of GW's rules writers for so, so many years. Balance is good, however - and while a game with this many moving parts will never be 100% balanced, improved balance and the ability to easily update point costs are big pluses to myself in getting me interested in 40k again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 -Loki- wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

You don't have rank and file in Infinity. And yes, it's metal, so individual models are more expensive because production costs are higher - molds need to be replaced frequently, the material is more expensive.

Okay so metal. No wonder.Plastic models you sell only one or maybe two per customer is NEVER going to be as cheap as metal model unless there's new breakthrough in plastic production. End of story.

Then why can smaller companies sell individual models for less? Wyrd are by no means cheap, but their individual models are a quarter of the cost in Australia.

Regional pricing. Which as I'm sure you'll agree with me, is bs.

While I make the choice to buy GW products again these days, I also make the choice to purchase from overseas. It'd be nice to buy locally, but as with so much other stuff in this country well beyond toy soldiers, manufacturer and middleman greed inflate the price to unreasonable levels. Regardless of what Gerry Harvey thinks. Battlefront/Flames of War stuff is almost as bad as GW, and even "reasonable" stuff like Warlord etc is sold for silly levels of markup locally compared to purchasing directly from Warlord or especially indie retailers. Once again, even beyond Gerry and Malcolm's 10%.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pacific wrote:

From an external perspective, I'm glad for the newcomers coming into wargaming via a GW store and for people that will only ever sample the one game. Think it's a good thing that there seems to be some modicum of attempt to balance and make a fun, less unwieldy system.

More players into the hobby via GW is still ultimately a good thing for all of us, and the other companies in the space. How many of us and the current historical players got started with 40k or WHFB before getting into WW2 or Napoleonics or Ancients or Dark Ages or other Fantasy/Sci-Fi options etc as we got older?

You know the saying that "THIS IS THE BEST SET EVER PUT OUT...."?
As far as GW is concerned, this one is a very good start as far as starter sets.

Combine that with the Army Painter colored primers, and you can be playing within a couple of hours with a starter set that you can get right to work with, in addition to the stuff that has been languishing in your back closet for the past five or six years... without missing a beat.

The conversion books, as well, as far as current, are a great jumping off point, to even make the decision to downsize, and start culling your herd.

I can confidently say that you can make up the price in resale, if you are so inclined.


The real problem people are going to have is too many games, not enough time.

All I can do to respond to the original topic question is detail my thoughts and feelings after 5+ years away from ANY GW games and coming back for 40K 8e.

The local hype is exciting my sub-crowd of the old guard, because we remember how much fun we had with early, back-of-the-book-lists 3rd edition. I'm using the interest to finally get around to painting up the Chaos Space Marines I bought 15 years ago for a Codex: Eye of Terror listed Lost and the Damned force. I'm aiming for about 750 points, 1000 at the most, because in the years since I stopped playing 40K I've (re)learned to appreciate the company scale of around 3 squads, a characters, and a vehicle.

I'm probably going to be picking up the Index: Chaos because I'm tired of flipping through an Imgur album and magnifying individual pages to read the unit entries and then go hunting for the points. I may buy the Forgeworld Index for the Imperial Guard so I can use the 40 mutants I painted up over a decade ago, just to lose them when the next edition codex hit. But that's pretty much it. I'm not a big fan of the current GW aesthetic, because to me their "intricately detailed premium miniatures" really means "overwrought eyesores." Also, I thought maybe I'd like to add a Predator or Vindicator, and discovered that they're not damned near $60 USD. For the exact same kit I used to pay $35-40 for. Screw that.

One thing I'm definitely NOT doing is flogging off my other games, and certainly not Deadzone or Warpath. My return to 40K is a lark. Something to do with miniatures I wanted to paint for 15 years now. I'll try 8th edition; I hope I like it. But I'll stick to small points and probably to open and narrative play. If I don't like it, I'll just add these Chaos Marines to the pile of GW stuff I plan to flog on eBay anyway. What I WON'T do is get caught up in playing this weird 28mm Epic that 6th and 7th turned into. I'd rather play that at 6mm or 10mm, thanks. Hell, this might turn out to just be something to do while I wait from my GCPS vehicles from the Warpath Kickstarter to finally get produced and shipped.

My time away from GW has opened my eyes to what wargaming can (and in my opinion, should) be without a publicly-owned corporation with aspirations of global-scale marketing trying to dictate what my hobby should be. I'm not going to leave 'the competition' by any means, I'm just adding GW back in - on a sort of probation. That's all.