Warhammer 40k v8: how much will it hurt the competition?

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**Crazy_Carnifex**

auticus wrote:
The difference between xwing and 40k is that in xwing the broken stuff changes more frequently. In 40k you wait years.

Both games are still easily abused and busted. Same with warmachine.

As to pricing... polls often average out at about people not wanting to go more than $200 for a playable force, to include rulebooks etc.

40k will never fit in that mold unless tournament 40k moves to 500 points. Which may not be a bad thing for it to do.

Plus, to get the latest power list for X-wing, even tracking down all of the physical cards, you will likely be looking at $200, less if, say, you already had a couple A-wings to give you deadeye.

**jmurph**

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Has it cracked the problem with inflated armies and over expensive miniatures?

You assume that is a bug. It is a feature.

The rules only exist to move models, full stop. Games workshop is in the business of selling models. Resources only go to rules to the degree that it helps sell more models and they have made it abundantly clear that they believe a significant portion of sales are due to collectors who could couldn't care less about game rules.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
auticus wrote:
The difference between xwing and 40k is that in xwing the broken stuff changes more frequently. In 40k you wait years.

Both games are still easily abused and busted. Same with warmachine.

As to pricing... polls often average out at about people not wanting to go more than $200 for a playable force, to include rulebooks etc.

40k will never fit in that mold unless tournament 40k moves to 500 points. Which may not be a bad thing for it to do.

Plus, to get the latest power list for X-wing, even tracking down all of the physical cards, you will likely be looking at $200, less if, say, you already had a couple A-wings to give you deadeye.

True, but also depends entirely upon your usual opponents.

X-Wing can be shockingly expensive given its scale if your usual games insist on you having a copy of each card you wish to use. But for less formal approaches it's common for 'just note it down and have a pic of it'

**Fenrir Kitsune**

jmurph wrote:
Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Has it cracked the problem with inflated armies and over expensive miniatures?

You assume that is a bug. It is a feature.

The rules only exist to move models, full stop. Games workshop is in the business of selling models. Resources only go to rules to the degree that it helps sell more models and they have made it abundantly clear that they believe a significant portion of sales are due to collectors who could couldn't care less about game rules.

I don't assume anything?

**Galas**

jmurph wrote:
Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Has it cracked the problem with inflated armies and over expensive miniatures?

You assume that is a bug. It is a feature.

The rules only exist to move models, full stop. Games workshop is in the business of selling models. Resources only go to rules to the degree that it helps sell more models and they have made it abundantly clear that they believe a significant portion of sales are due to collectors who could couldn't care less about game rules.

Having into account the financial results after years and years of that mentality, and how it has recover after that mentality has changed, I think it doesn't longer apply here.

**Mr. Grey**

jmurph wrote:
. Resources only go to rules to the degree that it helps sell more models and they have made it abundantly clear that they believe a significant portion of sales are due to collectors who could couldn't care less about game rules.

I'm fairly sure that this is oldGW mindset, and that things have started to change in this regard over the last couple of years. Games Workshop has practically reinvented itself in terms of community outreach, answering FAQ's, showing games at Warhammer World on Twitch, showing off teasers for new product, etc. It's not the same GW from 2010 or even 2014.

**Mario**

jmurph wrote:
Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Has it cracked the problem with inflated armies and over expensive miniatures?

You assume that is a bug. It is a feature.

The rules only exist to move models, full stop. Games workshop is in the business of selling models. Resources only go to rules to the degree that it helps sell more models and they have made it abundantly clear that they believe a significant portion of sales are due to collectors who could couldn't care less about game rules.

That's true from GW's point of view but how is it good for the consumer? What if that doesn't lead to more sales? Will they just throw up their hands in defeat, destroy the whole system, and try something new?

Some people already used "low sales" as the reason for the WHFB -> AOS change, as if GW isn't the the one with the most power to influence the conditions that lead to higher/lower sales.

**Lysenis**

Henry wrote:
So.... games that are made by manufacturers other than GW. Why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel?

Accusing other manufacturers of uninspiring back ground and miniatures, as though GW are the height of creativity? Do me a favour.

Other manufacturers can't match GW on models and are weeds? GW models are for the most part abhorrent. Their CAD designed stuff is woeful. Other companies aren't weeds, they are the fresh blood that filled the space left by the diseased old rot that was GW.

There may be some people who go back to GW. Their current path is promising and is a relief after over a decade of stagnation, lack of inspiration and mismanagement. I really do hope the 'new' GW is a success and continues to put out good games. But a lot of the 'haters' came to recognise GW for what it was and it'll take quite a bit more to bring them back. I'm not saying it won't happen, but 8th by itself is not going to be the great turn around. It may be the start.

It would help if GW started producing miniatures that were of decent quality, at the moment they simply can't match the good manufacturers out there.

What this guy said.

As someone who plays FFG games, Hawk Wargames, and a few others, this just means 40k has earned some of my time. Now they have to keep it.

**tneva82**

Just Tony wrote:
That in red is what I've been screaming about since 5th Ed. dropped. The big issue is there shouldn't NEED TO BE a new edition. Get it right the first time, play test any expansions, then spend all that R&D on advertising instead, and the money prints itself. It can't be that expensive to have a hot game of 40K show up on Big Bang Theory, or to do a tourney on ESPN like they used to do with M:TG

How many big games you know that don't release new editions? Even WM/Hordes and Flames of War keep releasing new editions.

Actually how many products period you keep seeing same version forever? Don't remember much except novels.

**Fenrir Kitsune**

tneva82 wrote:
Just Tony wrote:
That in red is what I've been screaming about since 5th Ed. dropped. The big issue is there shouldn't NEED TO BE a new edition. Get it right the first time, play test any expansions, then spend all that R&D on advertising instead, and the money prints itself. It can't be that expensive to have a hot game of 40K show up on Big Bang Theory, or to do a tourney on ESPN like they used to do with M:TG

How many big games you know that don't release new editions? Even WM/Hordes and Flames of War keep releasing new editions.

Actually how many products period you keep seeing same version forever? Don't remember much except novels.

GW does tend to rattle through the editions quickly compared to other games. Revision as a sales driver rather than for genuinely updating the game.

**Just Tony**

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Just Tony wrote:
That in red is what I've been screaming about since 5th Ed. dropped. The big issue is there shouldn't NEED TO BE a new edition. Get it right the first time, play test any expansions, then spend all that R&D on advertising instead, and the money prints itself. It can't be that expensive to have a hot game of 40K show up on Big Bang Theory, or to do a tourney on ESPN like they used to do with M:TG

How many big games you know that don't release new editions? Even WM/Hordes and Flames of War keep releasing new editions.

Actually how many products period you keep seeing same version forever? Don't remember much except novels.

GW does tend to rattle through the editions quickly compared to other games. Revision as a sales driver rather than for genuinely updating the game.

This guy gets it. Yeah, I'm thinking Axis and Allies right off the bat. How many rules changes did it go through? Look it up, I'll wait.

My issue is that when you have the same damn game go a decade on one edition, and in the same amount of time you see three editions? You can't even ATTEMPT to justify it as anything other than a cash grab, especially when each edition change is a paradigm shift that forces another unit type to be better than the others were in the previous edition ie. short sale of high volumes of models.

**dosiere**

I like how there seems to be a significant (minority?) amount of people who are assuming GW all of a sudden has it all figured out because they made a facebook page. These are the same people who ran WFB into the ground, totally bothched the launch of AoS, and have proven over and over again with 40K that they really don't get it.

As I love my 40K models and the setting, I'm willing to give it a chance despite it being based on a below average rules framework that is AoS, but why on earth would I suddenly take their marketing speech as reality without any actual track record?

At best, I think it's a safe bet that if you adore AoS, you'll like the new 40K as it seems to be essentially the same game with a few changes to account for more guns.

Besides, even if it IS great, it's not like i"m all of a sudden going to stop playing X-Wing, Runewars, Bolt Action, etc... which are also great games? It just means my money and time gets spread around a little more.

**Azazelx**

The departure of Kirby (and Merrett) is significant.

The actions of Rountree, having taken over relatively recently can already been seen. Bundling, points in AoS, community outreach. If you've worked in any medium-sized organisation, you'll know that the perspectives and desires of the person at the top have a real impact throughout the organisation, particularly if that person is proactive and has a vision that they want for the company.

Kirby definitely had a vision for GW, but as a consumer, I strongly prefer Rountree's one...

**Easy E**

Azazelx wrote:
The departure of Kirby (and Merrett) is significant.

The actions of Rountree, having taken over relatively recently can already been seen. Bundling, points in AoS, community outreach. If you've worked in any medium-sized organisation, you'll know that the perspectives and desires of the person at the top have a real impact throughout the organisation, particularly if that person is proactive and has a vision that they want for the company.

Kirby definitely had a vision for GW, but as a consumer, I strongly prefer Rountree's one...

Agreed 100%!

**Apple fox**

-Loki- wrote:
As an Australian I don't see myself going back until they fix their pricing over here. It's the same every single time I go into the FLGS.

I'll pick up their latest 40k release for whatever army my friend owns, and show him the box with my finger over the price sticker. He compliments the model, then I move my finger, and the expletives start pouring out.

Even if their rules get better, I doubt anyone at least in my group would ever pick up new miniatures. They might, as said earlier, dig their old stuff out to give it a try, but the models are just woefully expensive here compared to the competition.

This, i have been looking as 8th stuff has unfolded if there was interest. Geting a army ready for 8th is a small fortune, With just the start costing more than my new Warmachine army, 400$ is the starting point and its probably half assed supported.

**Galas**

GW has many bad things. Thats for sure. They have many grey movements, thats for sure too. They want money just as they have always do, but I'm more willing to give money to a company if they at least hide that behind a good customer service, reasonable pricing to a good product, and interaction with their community.

To people claiming that GW is exactly the same with Roundtree as with Kirbys regime, or the "Smoke and mirrors"...

Make of this what you want to believe.

I play more non GW stuff than GW stuff. So for me, GW going strong again can only be a good thing. In the past years I have seen others companys entering the GW route, if GW goes back to their tracks, probably that will be a call of attention. Competition is good to the customer.

**Torga_DW**

The problem with share prices is they're not always indicative of how well a company is doing. Enron is my go-to example of a company that was doing well by shares, only to collapse one day because things weren't going so well in reality.

**Peregrine**

Torga_DW wrote:
The problem with share prices is they're not always indicative of how well a company is doing. Enron is my go-to example of a company that was doing well by shares, only to collapse one day because things weren't going so well in reality.

Also, remember that GW is a small company and most of their shares are owned by large banks. So their stock value is likely based primarily on the superficial numbers in their financial reports, and the more detailed analysis of GW's business choices is something that takes way more work than anyone is going to devote to the subject. GW could very easily keep reasonable share prices right up until the moment their business collapses and finally makes a major (and impossible to cover up) impact in their financial reports. Simply quoting share prices is not a substitute for a more complete analysis.

**Lord Kragan**

Just Tony wrote:

My issue is that when you have the same damn game go a decade on one edition, and in the same amount of time you see three editions? You can't even ATTEMPT to justify it as anything other than a cash grab, especially when each edition change is a paradigm shift that forces another unit type to be better than the others were in the previous edition ie. short sale of high volumes of models.

Seventh edition was definitely a cashgrab. Specially with what followed after. 8th edition is the means to patch the fething mess they've made. As it is a hard reboot and clean-up is needed ASAP or else 40k is going to choke by the dev-team's hands.

Thankfully it seems the dev-team isn't the only one working in this new edition. That gives reassurance.

**Fenrir Kitsune**

But it's the same team as worked on the previous edition. Unless they culled the staff and got replacements in. If not, within 18 months the game will be in exactly the same state wen it was before.

**Lord Kragan**

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
But it's the same team as worked on the previous edition. Unless they culled the staff and got replacements in. If not, within 18 months the game will be in exactly the same state wen it was before.

It's not the same team. Remember they got the tournament organizers working with them. While I HIGHLY doubt it will be perfect, we will have less of that gak. Plus, it won't even get to 18 months. Remember, they want to do re-adjustments on a yearly basis.

**Azazelx**

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
But it's the same team as worked on the previous edition. Unless they culled the staff and got replacements in. If not, within 18 months the game will be in exactly the same state wen it was before.

While I'm going all-in on the initial parts of the new edition, (after sitting out the last few beyond starter sets and the odd codex) and not having played since 5th edition, there's nothing wrong with sitting out for 18 months to see how it pans out if that's your preference. I'm personally hoping that with the GHB-model being applied that terrible imbalance and power creep can be kept somewhat under control. I'm less optimistic about the FW stuff, because Forge World but I'll still buy their initial books so my models have rules, even if we have to house-rule them down a couple of notches. Even if it does go totally clownshoes again, the initial release codex-indexes should be enough to keep me playing casually with my mates for quite some time.

**Dysartes**

Azazelx wrote:
I'm less optimistic about the FW stuff, because Forge World but I'll still buy their initial books so my models have rules, even if we have to house-rule them down a couple of notches.

While I expect there will be a couple of FW bits that end up being OP, you'll almost certainly find more which are UP - and probably more outliers either way in the core range.

**SeanDrake**

Red Viper wrote:
.

However, the mythology of the Eldar Gods, the C'tan, the Chaos Gods.... that's what sucks me in.
.

Having seen some of the new fluff you may need to hold on to that thought reaalllll hard.

**Mezmaron**

It will hurt a little....

Let's face it - everyone only has so much gaming money and gaming time to spend on the hobby.

For example, it will affect FFG. The release of Runewars was already suspect - now it is basically DOA. But things like X-Wing will be fine -- not really a hobby game.

Flames of War was also having growing pains with V4 - some interest may be directed away from that.

It will also hurt Warmachine/Hordes, which is already suffering.

Everything else is such a small market that it won't really make a difference either way.

Glad to see GW is back!

Mez

**ulgurstasta**

I'm curious how 8th edition will affect Mantics Warpath/Firefight. AOS undoubtedly helped the 2nd edition of Kings of War greatly, and Mantic are most likely banking that dissatisfaction with 8th edition will help Warpath/Firefight. But 8th edition doesn´t seem as extreme as AOS and 40k really needed the changes more then WHFB did in my opinion, so they might be disappointed with how things will turn out.

**tneva82**

Dysartes wrote:
While I expect there will be a couple of Games Workshop bits that end up being OP, you'll almost certainly find more which are UP - and probably more outliers either way in the core range.

There. Fixed your typo. FW is the one you look for if you want to get reasonable rules.

**Lord Kragan**

tneva82 wrote:
Dysartes wrote:
While I expect there will be a couple of Games Workshop bits that end up being OP, you'll almost certainly find more which are UP - and probably more outliers either way in the core range.

There. Fixed your typo. FW is the one you look for if you want to get reasonable rules.

>Magnus doing D-Novas. and Mournghuls.
>Reasonable.

By and large yes, but they are also culprit of some outrageous outliers. Rarer than GW's, true, but still there.

**tneva82**

Lord Kragan wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Dysartes wrote:
While I expect there will be a couple of Games Workshop bits that end up being OP, you'll almost certainly find more which are UP - and probably more outliers either way in the core range.

There. Fixed your typo. FW is the one you look for if you want to get reasonable rules.

>Magnus doing D-Novas. and Mournghuls.
>Reasonable.

By and large yes, but they are also culprit of some outrageous outliers. Rarer than GW's, true, but still there.

Apart from that magnus thing being of dubious legality compare that to stuff like wraithknights.

Sure occasionally FW brings in OP stuff but less than GW and they have actually fixed with faster speed than GW.

**Dysartes**

tneva82, what did you think I was referring to as the "core range"?