Before I get to the topic of the thread, I wish to detail what the thread is NOT about:
1. This thread is not about whether or not it makes lore sense for there to be female space marines.
2. This thread is not about whether the lack of female space marines in existing lore is somehow sexist on the part of GW.
3. This thread is not about whether or not female space marines would be viable or have historical precedent.
What this thread IS about is this:
Let us assume that GW decided that female space marines makes sense in terms of the lore, and decided to cash in.
How would that even work?
First and foremost:
How would female space marine models differ from male space marine models? Most space marines are clad in bulky power armor and wear helmets. Granted, we do have some space marines without helmets, and they are all males. But the vast majority of space marines wear helmets. How would a female space marine sculpt qualitatively differ from a male space marine sculpt?
Granted that they did differ, how would that work?
Would GW put both male and female space marines in the same kit? Or would they offer two separate kits?
How would this affect their sales?
Personally, I wouldn't want to purchase a female space marine kit, and the existence of "mixed" kits would just anger me as a consumer.
I'm not giving a yes or no answer but I think it could make marketing sense IFGW can handle it with a bit of class. A bit of research and story about how female marines are now possible rather than just retconning it and saying "it was always possible" I could accept it.
Dakka Wolf wrote: I'm not giving a yes or no answer but I think it could make marketing sense IFGW can handle it with a bit of class. A bit of research and story about how female marines are now possible rather than just retconning it and saying "it was always possible" I could accept it.
It would want to be a bloody good story though.
They can do all of the research they want and write whatever story they want:
The question still remains:
Does it make marketing sense?
Would customers want to buy it?
I simply can't imagine a probable set of circumstances in which female space marines wouldn't be a massive marketing failure.
Evidence?
Look at Sisters of Battle.
Yes, there is apparently a cult fanbase for Sisters of Battle.
But I've never seen a Sisters army face to face.
And apparently, GW doesn't seem to think that they sell particularly well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, there's nothing stopping current customers from making female space marines.
All that you have to do is glue adepta sororitas heads onto space marine bodies.
I have yet to see anyone actually do this.
This tells me that there's not really much of a demand for the product.
Dakka Wolf wrote: I'm not giving a yes or no answer but I think it could make marketing sense IFGW can handle it with a bit of class. A bit of research and story about how female marines are now possible rather than just retconning it and saying "it was always possible" I could accept it.
It would want to be a bloody good story though.
They can do all of the research they want and write whatever story they want:
The question still remains:
Does it make marketing sense?
Would customers want to buy it?
I simply can't imagine a probable set of circumstances in which female space marines wouldn't be a massive marketing failure.
Evidence?
Look at Sisters of Battle.
Yes, there is apparently a cult fanbase for Sisters of Battle.
But I've never seen a Sisters army face to face.
And apparently, GW doesn't seem to think that they sell particularly well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, there's nothing stopping current customers from making female space marines.
All that you have to do is glue adepta sororitas heads onto space marine bodies.
I have yet to see anyone actually do this.
This tells me that there's not really much of a demand for the product.
Here I am. We exist, but are few and far between. I do know at least one other, whom I have met in person, though. There would be more of us, but our figures are $100 per basic infantry squad.
Also, Sisters of Battle don't have separate heads, so you can't just put SoB heads on SM bodies. At the very least, it would take a lot of work to achieve no useful end. Unless you really, really dislike the literal breastplates, but if that impracticality is offensive enough, maybe Sisters of Battle isn't the army for you. We have the BDSM chainsaw antitank suicide squad and a pipe organ on crawler tracks.
If they were to base it on historical information from the Sisters of Battle, no. The SoB community is very small, but reverberates everywhere and has a pretty big voice here in particular.
If we were to ignore historical information, Female Space Marines are still a poor idea when SoB exist and could easily be reworked and revived to fill that gap.
In terms of potential, they could be popular. The reason they most likely aren't is because of poor model and game support.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Also, Sisters of Battle don't have separate heads, so you can't just put SoB heads on SM bodies. At the very least, it would take a lot of work.
Fair point. But there are other options:
1. I'm sure that there are third party options available which sell female heads.
I haven't seen people use them.
2. There is literally nothing stopping you from taking a standard space marine army, painting the models bright pink and saying: "These are Battle Sisters. They use Sister Marines chapter tactics. It's exactly the same thing as Ultramarines chapter tactics. But they're women!"
I have yet to see anyone do this.
3. There's also nothing stopping you from using sisters of battle models as counts-as space marines.
If people really wanted female space marines, there's nothing in the rules stopping them, and there are ways to do it.
But I haven't seen it.
This makes me question the market-viability of the idea.
Traditio wrote: This comment has the dangerous potential of steering us away from the topic. Let these comments suffice:
What makes the setting of 40k attractive is that it's fething huge. Pretty much anything can happen.
There's no reason why, out of all of the successor chapters, one of them can't have some women, or even be all women.
The universe is a big place. 10 thousand years from the Horus Heresy is a long time.
Who knows?
For the purposes of this thread, I wish to assume that female space marines are at least possible in terms of the fluff.
My question is solely about their market viability.
This is something most people would not agree on, me included; the idea of female Space Marines completely neuter the point of SoB - there would be no point for SoB to exist if we could have female Marines.
Which is also why female Space Marines are a poor idea market wise. Why strip out fluff for one faction to make a new one when you can just revive that faction and bring it back to the forefront?
General Annoyance wrote:This is something most people would not agree on, me included; the idea of female Space Marines completely neuter the point of SoB - there would be no point for SoB to exist if we could have female Marines.
Which is also why female Space Marines are a poor idea market wise. Why strip out fluff for one faction to make a new one when you can just revive that faction and bring it back to the forefront?
I disagree with your assessment, but I ultimately agree with your conclusion.
In fact, the general feel of the space marine vs. sisters of battle distinction as a kind of secular, militaristic monk vs. nun distinction is something which is deeply ingrained in the fluff.
Ultimately, I disagree with you that female space marines would somehow "completely neuter the point of SoB" (why would female equivalents of Captain America somehow neuter the idea of atheistic secular war nuns?).
Either way, in terms of market viability, I do agree with you that there would be aesthetic conflicts:
Why purchase an adepta sororitas model when you just as easily could purchase the female space marine kit?
Especially if you don't know anything about the factions prior to making the purchase...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jhe90 wrote: You only find SOB armies rare because of sheer cost.
There £50 a 10 squad. In metal. No options. Less points to.
Marines are around 30. Plastic. + options.
Now specialists cost alot plus the only two tanks they use one I think is not made, they have very little support model range wise.
Thr costs just keep adding up and up.
A full sisters army is lovely sight. Its also a very wallet heavy one.
Even if Sisters of Battle were 1. plastic and 2. cheaper, would all that many more people buy them?
I don't see many people on dakka forums complaining about how they WISHED that they could afford to field a sisters of battle army.
Pretty much all of the complaining about sisters of battle seems to come from...people who already own sisters of battle armies.
Also, I wish to note:
Purely in terms of the rules:
There's nothing stopping you from painting a tactical squad pink and saying: "This is, in fact, a unit of sisters of battle."
Traditio wrote: Ultimately, I disagree with you that female space marines would somehow "completely neuter the point of SoB" (why would female equivalents of Captain America somehow neuter the idea of atheistic secular war nuns?).
Because a female Space Marine would have a Black Carapace, as well as the other 13 Marine Implants, making them objectively better than SoB as soldiers. You could argue over the zealous nature of SoB beating Marines, but there would be no reason why that wouldn't carry over if female Marines can.
Either way, in terms of market viability, I do agree with you that there would be aesthetic conflicts:
Why purchase an adepta sororitas model when you just as easily could purchase the female space marine kit?
Especially if you don't know anything about the factions prior to making the purchase...
It's less about the aesthetic separation, and more about the fact that we already have SoB; why not just give them a boost to be a fully fledged faction? Whether female Marines were to be released or not, it doesn't make sense to leave them in the dirt, especially when we consider their aesthetic appeal and differences to the Adeptus Astartes in unit composition and looks.
General Annoyance wrote:Because a female Space Marine would have a Black Carapace, as well as the other 13 Marine Implants, making them objectively better than SoB as soldiers. You could argue over the zealous nature of SoB beating Marines, but there would be no reason why that wouldn't carry over if female Marines can.
You could make the same argument about Space Marines vs. Imperial Guard.
At the end of the day, I don't think that the male-female distinction matters all that much.
Sisters of Battle are ordinary human beings who are part of the Ecclesiarchy, whereas space marines are genetically modified super soldiers.
Yes it does - female models etc are now prevalent in pretty all much gaming systems - they are not niche just part of the setting - as it should be.
Sisters have not been supported so its not a decent comparison.
They didn't bother putting any female bodies in Genestlealer cults - now being a very icky cult many of the females would be honoured (or otherwise) breeding stock but the fluff does talk about the parents of both sexes taking part in the uprisings and defending their offspring...........
Female guardsmen are often in the novels and fluff - but yep no models
Knights now have canon (Gathering Storm sourcebook for one source) female pilots.
soo why no models? GW do seem to think that they will not sell and that may contiiue.
GW is usually very reluctant to have female units - they can just about manage to have single characters ( "exceptions" ) sculpted but they really have trouble imagining female units will sell.
Sisters of Silence are out and again be interesting to see if they expand (as Custodians are doing) or not.
It was interesting that we had a number of female special characters in the Gathering Storm with models - Celestine and her bodyguards, GreyFax and Yvrainne - they will look at their sales but might also (sadly) think "oh well they bought the box cos of the other stuff and tolerated the female models - that does seem to be an attitude from conversations I have had with female staff......
Personally I prefer mixed sex units in the fluff appropriate areas - So Guard, Mechancius Dark Eldar, Eldar, Tau.
IMO Marines and Sisters (of both variety) should be male and female respectively as that's the fluff for them.
Now Female Custodes - not sure if there is much been written about the process of creating them and if there is any fluff based gender restrictions.
Traditio wrote: You could make the same argument about Space Marines vs. Imperial Guard.
Guard have a massive variation of different units/vehicles to Marines, and overwhelming numbers. The difference between SoB and Marines would be minute if you were to grant the idea of female Marines.
Traditio wrote: You could make the same argument about Space Marines vs. Imperial Guard.
Guard have a massive variation of different units/vehicles to Marines, and overwhelming numbers. The difference between SoB and Marines would be minute if you were to grant the idea of female Marines.
Fluffwise, I don't think that's true.
Marketing-wise, I think that's difficult to disagree with.
What makes the setting of 40k attractive is that it's fething huge. Pretty much anything can happen.
That's somewhat a dangerous assertion because it implies that the fluff is loose enough that it can be ignored outright when it comes to canon things. You won't find an Ethereal as lower then Fire Warriors in rank for example. Nor would you find a peaceful Khornate Daemon that is nonviolent and preaches veganism. The assertion alone is dangerous to think of.
..However I will accept one sort of female marine, a half-female/male Slaaneshi marine given that it is one of his common gifts. She loves the whole split aesthetic and as a result his followers, marines included could pull that off... Now if you're talking about pure marines? No, I wouldn't accept such.
If SoB cost less, had more support and model ranging id consider collecting.
Now as for marines. Nope just nope.
A marine model has like twice bulk, is taller.
Heavy weapon kit marines now get bulked out legs 3-4 times a sisters.
They just don,t feel right. Marines and sisters ment to be distinct.
Now sure I could use SOS...
But they are 70 for 10 and only covers my basic infantry..
So plastic.. Then id give em a look if i had funds.
What makes the setting of 40k attractive is that it's fething huge. Pretty much anything can happen.
That's somewhat a dangerous assertion because it implies that the fluff is loose enough that it can be ignored outright when it comes to canon things. You won't find an Ethereal as lower then Fire Warriors in rank for example. Nor would you find a peaceful Khornate Daemon that is nonviolent and preaches veganism. The assertion alone is dangerous to think of.
..However I will accept one sort of female marine, a half-female/male Slaaneshi marine given that it is one of his common gifts. She loves the whole split aesthetic and as a result his followers, marines included could pull that off... Now if you're talking about pure marines? No, I wouldn't accept such.
Is there anything in the lore which says that females are incapable of receiving the implants, genetic modifications, indoctrination, etc. which are proper to space marines?
Adding female marines does nothing for you except potentially angering your player base.
The background is the thing that draws people to the game, nerds care a lot about lore and as aos showed messing with that causes a massive backlash which can negatively affect your sales.
Adding female marines also won't lead to new players because women like co-op games not cooperative ones as a general rule which is why loads raid in wow but the CS scene is dominated by guys.
Xwing has tons of female pilots many of them are amongst the stronger pilots but still its men playing.
So the potential negatives far out way any positives.
What makes the setting of 40k attractive is that it's fething huge. Pretty much anything can happen.
That's somewhat a dangerous assertion because it implies that the fluff is loose enough that it can be ignored outright when it comes to canon things. You won't find an Ethereal as lower then Fire Warriors in rank for example. Nor would you find a peaceful Khornate Daemon that is nonviolent and preaches veganism. The assertion alone is dangerous to think of.
..However I will accept one sort of female marine, a half-female/male Slaaneshi marine given that it is one of his common gifts. She loves the whole split aesthetic and as a result his followers, marines included could pull that off... Now if you're talking about pure marines? No, I wouldn't accept such.
Is there anything in the lore which says that females are incapable of receiving the implants, genetic modifications, indoctrination, etc. which are proper to space marines?
Yes, quite a bit. Which is why you tend to get a glare from lore purists when you start mentioning female marines because the arguments have been heard time, and time again.
What makes the setting of 40k attractive is that it's fething huge. Pretty much anything can happen.
That's somewhat a dangerous assertion because it implies that the fluff is loose enough that it can be ignored outright when it comes to canon things. You won't find an Ethereal as lower then Fire Warriors in rank for example. Nor would you find a peaceful Khornate Daemon that is nonviolent and preaches veganism. The assertion alone is dangerous to think of.
I find your use of "dangerous" curious, I don't see it as remotely dangerous if someone wants to bend the fluff to their desires. I reckon the whole reason GW originally made 40k a mostly unexplored universe was to allow people to do whatever they wanted and just write it off as "well, that occurs in this sector of the galaxy you've never heard about before".
What makes the setting of 40k attractive is that it's fething huge. Pretty much anything can happen.
That's somewhat a dangerous assertion because it implies that the fluff is loose enough that it can be ignored outright when it comes to canon things. You won't find an Ethereal as lower then Fire Warriors in rank for example. Nor would you find a peaceful Khornate Daemon that is nonviolent and preaches veganism. The assertion alone is dangerous to think of.
I find your use of "dangerous" curious, I don't see it as remotely dangerous if someone wants to bend the fluff to their desires. I reckon the whole reason GW originally made 40k a mostly unexplored universe was to allow people to do whatever they wanted and just write it off as "well, that occurs in this sector of the galaxy you've never heard about before".
There's a difference between bending and outright breaking it over your knee. At some point it makes it sound like you don't really care about the setting at all and may desire another one instead.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:Yes, quite a bit. Which is why you tend to get a glare from lore purists when you start mentioning female marines because the arguments have been heard time, and time again.
1. I've not heard these lore citations.
2. Nu-marines.
If GW can write nu-marines into the plot, there's literally no reason why they couldn't write female space marines into the plot.
And even if female space marines wouldn't have the exact genetic augments that male space marines have, why couldn't they have different ones?
But again, this has the dangerous potential of leading us off into too-controversial waters.
What is your opinion on the market viability of female space marines?
Being made by the same near process as old marines.
If GW can write nu-marines into the plot, there's literally no reason why they couldn't write female space marines into the plot.
See above.
With all due respect, I find this untenable.
At the end of the day, the distinction between a male space marine and an imperial guardsman is exactly the same distinction as would apply between a female space marine and a sister of battle:
Genetically modified vs. genetically unmodified.
In order for you to make the claim that there can't be female space marines, you'd have to argue that it would be absolutely impossible for GW to write some version of genetically altered female super soldiers (i.e., female Captains America) into the setting.
I think that any reasonable person would quickly see that there's no reason why this should be true.
However:
Given things.. Would they have the standard SM armor and just different heads? Poor in this case because you'd just be selling SM models with a different head style. With boobplate? You cut into Sister of Battle market (Should they choose to revive it of course)
I do agree with you here.
There are ultimately three options:
1. Make a female space marine kit which looks very much like sisters of battle (at which point, what is the aesthetic point of sisters of battle?).
2. Make a female space marine kit which supplies female heads instead of male heads (who would buy that?).
or
3. Make a kit which offers both male and female heads, or else, both male and female sculpts (and risk angering the consumer base).
At the end of the day:
I have no lore objections to the idea.
I have every marketing objection to the idea. I think it would be a massive sales flop.
At the end of the day, the distinction between a male space marine and an imperial guardsman
Strong built to order elite monk soldiers vs that of endless masses of normal recruits?
as would apply between a female space marine and a sister of battle:
Genetically modified elite soldier vs more elite then normal soldiers and have angelic powers bestowed upon them by the God Emperor through their purity of self and belief? Somehow I believe you are ignoring alot of things in order to try and force a point which can't stand on its own.
In order for you to make the claim that there can't be female space marines, you'd have to argue that it would be absolutely impossible for GW to write some version of genetically altered female super soldiers (i.e., female Captains America) into the setting.
They potentially could, but given the backlash when they turned Captain America into a Hydra Agent in order to put someone else into the Captain America suit that didn't match it well enough it would hurt them to do so.
For already existing marines it wouldn't be viable as much of the customer base has had what? 30 years of fluff saying 'm girls allowed? Numarines on the other hand made by Rowboat Girlyman (hence 'girlymarines ') and and some old cult dude I don't care to remember: GW can make new fluff for them saying it cam happen now and then they can release mixed sprues- even if it's 1 or 2 female heads per sprue. They have that licence and freedom. Would people buy it? Absolutely. Why? People want shinies and girlymarines will have shiny rules to go with their new release. Simple as that.
That said. *insert long rant full of colourful language and insult pointing out that SoB are here and so on and so forth.*
My only qualms with Female Astartes is the lore against it.
If NuMarines were to be mixed gender, I'd have no issue.
However, I'm generally of the opinion that, because of all the implants and suchlike, a Female Space Marine would look identical to a current Space Marine, maybe excluding a slightly more feminine voice. Essentially, that would mean nothing for a new kit, other than perhaps a slightly softer looking face. Boobplate and ponytails not needed.
Regarding lore, which is my only issue with females being in the "normal" Space Marines, I'd have to ask "why change it? What purpose does it give?"
As for the question raised, I think it makes absolute sense provided it's done right. However, I'd still rather have Sisters renewed and redone before these NuMarines.
What makes the setting of 40k attractive is that it's fething huge. Pretty much anything can happen.
That's somewhat a dangerous assertion because it implies that the fluff is loose enough that it can be ignored outright when it comes to canon things. You won't find an Ethereal as lower then Fire Warriors in rank for example. Nor would you find a peaceful Khornate Daemon that is nonviolent and preaches veganism. The assertion alone is dangerous to think of.
..However I will accept one sort of female marine, a half-female/male Slaaneshi marine given that it is one of his common gifts. She loves the whole split aesthetic and as a result his followers, marines included could pull that off... Now if you're talking about pure marines? No, I wouldn't accept such.
Is there anything in the lore which says that females are incapable of receiving the implants, genetic modifications, indoctrination, etc. which are proper to space marines?
Yes. Seeing as your OP asks against it, I won't post it here, but there is canon confirmation (that hasn't been redacted or reworked) that the implantation process is impossible for female candidates.
See the female NuMarines thread for details on that.
Yes, there is apparently a cult fanbase for Sisters of Battle.
But I've never seen a Sisters army face to face.
And apparently, GW doesn't seem to think that they sell particularly well.
Well actually Tradito, you are slightly wrong there. Yes, Sisters have a massive following but the reason that they do not sell is because the kits are now just over 20 years old and still in the original 1997 era monopose single piece sculpts which despite being lovely classic pieces are showing their age and quite frankly should have been updated years ago. The ludicrous prices that GW demand for these ancient figures is the final nail in an already secure coffin. There is a huge demand for Sisters miniatures, as the sales from the limited edition Cannoness figure showed. Well, I say sales, but it was more like a scourging of the stores as she sold out within hours - and that was only in the places where there where still models left after the preorders had been through.
So yes, there is a market for female space marines/Sisters of Battle, but the chances of GW ever taking advantage of this is nil.
What makes the setting of 40k attractive is that it's fething huge. Pretty much anything can happen.
That's somewhat a dangerous assertion because it implies that the fluff is loose enough that it can be ignored outright when it comes to canon things. You won't find an Ethereal as lower then Fire Warriors in rank for example. Nor would you find a peaceful Khornate Daemon that is nonviolent and preaches veganism. The assertion alone is dangerous to think of.
I find your use of "dangerous" curious, I don't see it as remotely dangerous if someone wants to bend the fluff to their desires. I reckon the whole reason GW originally made 40k a mostly unexplored universe was to allow people to do whatever they wanted and just write it off as "well, that occurs in this sector of the galaxy you've never heard about before".
There's a difference between bending and outright breaking it over your knee. At some point it makes it sound like you don't really care about the setting at all and may desire another one instead.
But it's possible someone likes the 40k universe but the faction they want to play within it doesn't actually exist, in which case they can bend or break whatever the hell they want to make it happen.
In a game with such fickle lore, I've never understood why people give a damn about others breaking the fluff.
I don't want GW to break their own fluff, but when other gamers do it, more power to them.
NO, there already are sisters of battle, that are an imperium army made of women in power armors which makes them female space marines. Update their catalogue would be great, introducing other imperium stuff no please, half 40k armies are already imperium stuff.
Traditio wrote: How would female space marine models differ from male space marine models? Most space marines are clad in bulky power armor and wear helmets. Granted, we do have some space marines without helmets, and they are all males. But the vast majority of space marines wear helmets. How would a female space marine sculpt qualitatively differ from a male space marine sculpt?
Granted that they did differ, how would that work?
Like Tau.
Traditio wrote: Would GW put both male and female space marines in the same kit? Or would they offer two separate kits?
Same kits. Like Tau or Eldar guardians or DE Kabalites or Wyches.
Not so much at first. Maybe quite a lot in the long run.
Traditio wrote: Personally, I wouldn't want to purchase a female space marine kit, and the existence of "mixed" kits would just anger me as a consumer.
If you are angry as a customer because you get some extra heads on your sprue, it's on you.
How many Cult Genestealer armies have you seen before GW released rules and models for them? How many Cult Mechanicus armies?
General Annoyance wrote: the idea of female Space Marines completely neuter the point of SoB - there would be no point for SoB to exist if we could have female Marines.
That's your opinion. But to me, that's a bit like saying “Ultramarines neuter the point of all Space Marines variants”…
Well of course there is still way more difference between Sisters of Battle and female Marines than between Ultramarines and Space Wolves…
I'm interested by this question more so than the thread running alongside this one about female marines as I've got bored of that discussion repeatedly reappearing.
The first thing to consider would be the fluff. Your question states that we're to think on the basis that GW could and would change the established lore (specifically that only males are suitable for implantation of the geneseed organs to make full marones). What does this lead to? Well it'd indicate a change to the way the Imperium thinks about innovation and change to traditional tech. Traditionally the imperium has been shown to be very resistant to changes and innovation, and for very good reason, but GW has nearly thrown this out he window with inventions being made and new advances to allow GW to introduce new models. The introduction of "Nu-marines" is further evident of this.
There is a logical argument that changing the lore of 40k too much will turn off fans and reduce the customer base to which GW could sell these marines too (this is based on the assertion that the lore is the primary driver for people getting into and continuing, in any way, in the hobby). The general principle being, change the lore people are in 40k for and people will leave 40k. Simple logic would say this is correct but there is actually little evidence of this with previous lore changes to introduce new products.
The other concern people have is that it'd reduce the marketability of sisters of battle but GW have done a pretty good job of that already...
To me I'm not sure it'd be a question of reducing any marketability but of whether all the input needed would increase the marketability of marines? I'd be inclined to say not.
Apart from a very small minority GW is not under any pressure to release female space marines. So the options available to GW would likely be a wasted investment. Making all new sprews just to appease a tiny minority would make very little business sense and on top of that having to create fluff to support it whilst not p***ing off lore fanatics is a near impossible job.
I think about it this way. How many people don't play 40k because the bioengineered, superhuman, psychotic warrior monks don't have women in them? And how many people who currently play 40k don't buy marines because they are a "no girls allowed" club? I don't think there is any actually evidence beyond the anecdotal but I'd be willing to wager any evidence collected would indicate a negligible change to the inclination of people both in and out of the hobby if marines had females in... therefore marketability with a view to cost/gain benefit would be nearly zero.
I have every marketing objection to the idea. I think it would be a massive sales flop.
Let me put this kindly: who cares. Why are earth are you wasting our time with most popular title we all hate #1 just to make this statement?! You have clearly very little exposure to the lore and fandom. And a thousand times over, they lose players and credibility with fans if they do this... and gain very little more than a brief initial sales bump.
Plastic Sisters needs to happen first. Mysteriously we got plastic Sisters of Silence instead.
Comparing the sales of current SoB to the possibles sales of female SM is stupid and pointless, a bad representation of what would be expected.
The answer to why SoB has low sales is simple:
I'm not going to buy overpriced and out of date metals that not only cost an arm and a leg for everything, more so than usual for just barely a squad that I can't customize, and on top of that once I sold my soul to GW to get my hands on it, it will be supported by rules that make Sisters one of the weakest armies in the game! People here already will drop weak armies and go to new ones, there is thread after thread of examples! So why?!
There is a logical argument that changing the lore of 40k too much will turn off fans and reduce the customer base to which GW could sell these marines too (this is based on the assertion that the lore is the primary driver for people getting into and continuing, in any way, in the hobby). The general principle being, change the lore people are in 40k for and people will leave 40k. Simple logic would say this is correct but there is actually little evidence of this with previous lore changes to introduce new products.
Age of sigmar says different the sales slump was so bad it completely negated the massive sales the calth box set produced.
To people saying Sisters sell badly because of the bad/expensive/old miniatures, consider that once upon a time the Sister's models were actually new, pretty good quality compared to other GW miniatures at the time and similarly priced.
I can only assume the reason Sisters never went anywhere is way back then they sold relatively poorly so GW have assumed there's not a big enough market for them.
The metal Sisters we know and love came out at pretty much the same time as the original metal Necrons, except when 3rd edition rolled around the Necrons got revamped with plastics and the Sisters didn't.
1) It has been ingrained in us for years that Spacemarines are male, exclusively.
2) The primarch project and custodes all came via the big E, a male from his chosen persona.
3) Rowboat and Cawl could be working on something which would introduce females into the ranks of the Astartes.
Would female Spacemarines be acceptable to the community at large, who knows? As a bit of a vet I would say fine with newer players but not necessarily with old.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: ...To people saying Sisters sell badly because of the bad/expensive/old miniatures...
Chicken/egg. Players: "I'm not spending $140 for a pewter ten-woman infantry squad in a transport, that's just stupid." GW: "Nobody is buying these things, why should we update them?"
How the cycle started is kind of irrelevant at this point; both arguments are true and valid. If you don't push them they won't sell. If they don't sell you won't push them.
Yes it would be alright, but as long as the focus isnt just space marines but female, however I have seen sisters of silence on games workshop which I believe helped the death guard in hunting psykers in flight of the eisenstein which I would love to see as they seem super cool in that book.
Every other mayor Wargame out there has mixed miniatures ranges with a good number of females: Infinity ,Warmahordes, Malifaux, etc...
Warhammer is the only one that just don't want to go that route. Why? I don't know. Maybe in the future.
The Kickstarters of "Toughtes Girls in the Galaxy" show thats theres customers to female miniadures. The First Kickstarter earned 700k dollars, the second 800k.
Female Space Marines, from a pure ECONOMICAL standpoint, are a totally viable kit that can earn GW money. Basically ,everything that is "Space Marine" will earn then money. I'm sure that they'll sell more Female Space Marines kits that Tauroxs kits, for example.
There is a logical argument that changing the lore of 40k too much will turn off fans and reduce the customer base to which GW could sell these marines too (this is based on the assertion that the lore is the primary driver for people getting into and continuing, in any way, in the hobby). The general principle being, change the lore people are in 40k for and people will leave 40k. Simple logic would say this is correct but there is actually little evidence of this with previous lore changes to introduce new products.
Age of sigmar says different the sales slump was so bad it completely negated the massive sales the calth box set produced.
The Backlash of the launch of Age of Sigmar was real, but after the GHB it was reversed and now AoS has sales that are greater than Fantasy in many many years past. Humans have a limited attention spawn. You can change completely the setting: They are gonna be mad a limited amount of time. After that, they will continue as if nothing happens.
And I think thats why fanboys and radicals of different fantasy and sci-fi settings are so mad about changes: Because deep inside, they know that they are the only ones that care about that, and in 1-2 years nobody are gonna be mad of those changes.
And I said this being in the past a fanboy of the lore of Warcraft, but after so many changes I have just emotionally separated from it.
I would fall on my knees and shout Hallelueah the day GW openly states the Taurox was a mistake and it is redesigned. (apologies if slightly off topic).
It was the one reason I did not start an Astra Militarum force.
I'm willing to go with a tentative "yes." I'd fully expect people to put up a stink for a while, then it's a joke for a bit, then it's something that's mostly just excepted.
I think the ridiculous Necron retcon, while not going against as long an established canon, was a larger rejection of it.
I think a reasonably done "female giant plate armor in space" version that also didn't step on Sisters' toes would probably go over fine, probably be good PR outside the established base and eventually be good for the company.
You have people still mad about the lore change about Necrons. That's a far less popular army compared to Space Marines.
Also as I already pointed out Sisters and Marines are their own exclusive "No Opposite Gender Allowed" Clubs. What's wrong with leaving it like that?
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Mr Morden wrote: Yes it does - female models etc are now prevalent in pretty all much gaming systems - they are not niche just part of the setting - as it should be.
Sisters have not been supported so its not a decent comparison.
They didn't bother putting any female bodies in Genestlealer cults - now being a very icky cult many of the females would be honoured (or otherwise) breeding stock but the fluff does talk about the parents of both sexes taking part in the uprisings and defending their offspring...........
Female guardsmen are often in the novels and fluff - but yep no models
Knights now have canon (Gathering Storm sourcebook for one source) female pilots.
soo why no models? GW do seem to think that they will not sell and that may contiiue.
GW is usually very reluctant to have female units - they can just about manage to have single characters ( "exceptions" ) sculpted but they really have trouble imagining female units will sell.
Sisters of Silence are out and again be interesting to see if they expand (as Custodians are doing) or not.
It was interesting that we had a number of female special characters in the Gathering Storm with models - Celestine and her bodyguards, GreyFax and Yvrainne - they will look at their sales but might also (sadly) think "oh well they bought the box cos of the other stuff and tolerated the female models - that does seem to be an attitude from conversations I have had with female staff......
Personally I prefer mixed sex units in the fluff appropriate areas - So Guard, Mechancius Dark Eldar, Eldar, Tau.
IMO Marines and Sisters (of both variety) should be male and female respectively as that's the fluff for them.
Now Female Custodes - not sure if there is much been written about the process of creating them and if there is any fluff based gender restrictions.
I just want to point out it is funny that you bring up Knights because there's literally no way to model that unless you were planning to stick tits on the Knight somehow.
Marketing-wise, I think that's difficult to disagree with.
You don't think Guard differ enough from Space Marines?
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: That's your opinion. But to me, that's a bit like saying “Ultramarines neuter the point of all Space Marines variants”…
Well of course there is still way more difference between Sisters of Battle and female Marines than between Ultramarines and Space Wolves…
The point there is that there would be no reason to keep the Adepta Sororitas as an Imperial organisation if mankind could create female Space Marines; what could they bring to the table that a next generation of Space Marines couldn't outpace them easily in?
The other Chapters of Space Marines exist even in the presence of the Ultramarines for 3 reasons. 1. it's currently not possible to replace every Marine with an Ultramarine, 2. it would defy the very reason that the Codex Astartes was created for - the breakdown of the Legions, and 3. as perfect as the Ultramarines are as soldiers, there are sometimes opportunities/strategies that only other Chapters would be willing to employ for victory over the enemies of man.
Say female Space Marines became a thing, all lore points against it aside - what couldn't they do better over the SoB? They could still be just as fanatical, blessed and devoted as Battle Sisters, only now they have all the implants that make a Space Marine tough as nails. That's the biggest problem with the idea if you ask me.
Opinions are opinions, yeah, I get that. I just wouldn't see the need to keep SoB if this happened, and that would honestly make me feel quite sad, as someone who wants some SoB deep down, but isn't prepared to buy into an expensive, all metal, monopose army.
From a marketing point of view I think a set of just female heads would sell fairly well. I just think it would sell best for imperial guard. It's like asking if female tau would sell. It wouldn't make sense to market female space marines. It would be profitable to market more diverse cadians
Yes, there is apparently a cult fanbase for Sisters of Battle.
But I've never seen a Sisters army face to face.
And apparently, GW doesn't seem to think that they sell particularly well.
You mean like Dark Eldar? They had nothing new for 20 years just like SoB, they had a cult following online, but very few actually played them. New models and new kits and suddenly the amount of people you saw playing them exploded. Same would happen with SoB I am sure. GW also builds their marketing model on selling new things, so having female Marines would certainly be a big new thing for them to sell. Plus people have to have noticed that girl geeks are becoming more and more common, even if not many have migrated to miniature wargames there is still a potential market there.
I'd say same kits, just add a few extra head options with slightly more feminine looks. Because let's be honest-power armour is gonna cover up any remaining feminine looks, so it's only the idiots who forgot their helmets where you could tell the difference.
Why would there be female space marines? Forgive me if im wrong but space marines all come from the same genes as the primarches right? And considering none of them are female it just makes no sense of why they would be a thing, again they should really focus on the sisters of silence as they look really cool in horus heresy novels.
JNAProductions wrote: I'd say same kits, just add a few extra head options with slightly more feminine looks. Because let's be honest-power armour is gonna cover up any remaining feminine looks, so it's only the idiots who forgot their helmets where you could tell the difference.
That's more or less what I'm thinking.
Which is even stronger support that female space marines are not a viable market idea.
There is NOTHING stopping anyone from modeling an all-female space marine chapter now.
Hypothetically, there is nothing stopping someone from getting a bunch of space marine models, making sure that everyone is wearing helmets, and specifying to the opponent before the game starts: "Just so you know, they're all women!"
In principle, you could paint them all bright pink, put them in full 10 woman squads, NOT combat-squad them (because woman reasons)...
I simply don't see how GW has anything substantial to gain by making female marine models, whatever that might mean.
I don't think that female Space Marines would make much of a difference one way or another, as far as marketing and sales go. It would piss a few people off, and it might bring a few new people in. It's not like all of a sudden thousands of women who thought about getting into wargaming, but didn't because there were no female Space Marines, will suddenly be pounding on GW doors to buy a FeMarine army.
More female heads/torsos in their other lines would probably have a broader overall effect.
My only concern with putting in feminine faces as well is that it ain't coming for free and I certainly don't want it replacing my male faces or what-not.
I think "feminine" is exactly the wrong thing to shoot for with Space Marines, for a lot of reasons. If there must be female Space Marines, they should be pretty butch.
I think it would make marketing sense (there's enough people supporting the idea in every Femarine thread ever created that there's bound to be a sizable population making that purchase, and people who dislike them are far more likely to just not buy them rather than abandon purchasing GW models/products entirely) to the point where it would make GW some money (not as much as Space Marines, but no subfactions makes as much as Space Marines, so setting the bar there is a non sequitor), and while I'd rather they introduce them through NuMarines or through pre-implantation phenotype-modifications rather than retcon the existing lore, I ultimately wouldn't be pissed if they did perform that sort of retcon because its ultimately not that important to the overarching nature of the setting (being the bastard lovechild of grimdark, silliness, and more copyright violations than you could shake a stick at).
That said, I also voted "no" on the poll, as I've no real interest in purchasing an Imperial army, and have no plans in the future to do so.
I'd totally go for an upgrade kit of female Tau heads, though.
Unusual Suspect wrote: I think it would make marketing sense (there's enough people supporting the idea in every Femarine thread ever created that there's bound to be a sizable population making that purchase,
Unusual Suspect wrote: I think it would make marketing sense (there's enough people supporting the idea in every Femarine thread ever created that there's bound to be a sizable population making that purchase,
I think that the thread poll begs to differ.
To be honest, I voted "no" because I wouldn't buy a male Space Marine kit either, as well as a female one.
Verviedi wrote:To be honest, I voted "no" because I wouldn't buy a male Space Marine kit either, as well as a female one.
That's kind of the point though, isn't it?
Female space marines are very much a niche interest.
In order to buy female space marines, two things have to be the case:
1. You have to be in the market to buy space marines.
2. You must want those space marines to be female (or, at the very least, not care whether or not they are female).
If either of those conditions is not met, GW doesn't make a sale.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I will say this:
Perhaps the poll numbers aren't so bad as might appear at first glance.
Under the assumption that 29 percent of GW's player base actually purchased female space marines, that could actually prove a lucrative investment on GW's part.
That's a big assumption, though.
And it only works if you assume that an equal or greater number of people who otherwise would have purchased marines end up deciding against making a purchase because female space marines angered them.
So basically, it requires two assumptions:
1. Substantial percent of the player base makes a purchase
I play Sisters of Battle. I don't play "Female Space Marines". My army isn't an army of genetically engineered killing machines, but female, but an army of warrior-nuns who can achieve feats surpassing that of said engineered killing machines, including literal miracles, though force of will, blind faith, and an unhealthy cult of martyrdom. I am playing an army that has pipe organs on crawler treads, uses the bones of martyred comrades as battle standards, and has silly gold-trimmed breastplates. I'm not playing Space Marines.
If there were female Imperial Guard kits, I would buy a few dozen. But, I also don't care enough about it to find alternate female Imperial Guard bits.
Unusual Suspect wrote: I think it would make marketing sense (there's enough people supporting the idea in every Femarine thread ever created that there's bound to be a sizable population making that purchase,
I think that the thread poll begs to differ.
The thread's poll suggests something like a (EDIT: Not a full third. actually closer to a quarter) quarter of all players polled would purchase Femarines.
A QUARTER OF ALL THOSE POLLED. A QUARTER.
For it to make marketing sense, it needs to make money. It doesn't have to be purchased by every (or even half) of all players. But if a full QUARTER of all GW players made that purchase, honey, that would probably outsell most Space Marine kits.
Do you think a full quarter of players would purchase Tau kits? Tyranid kits? Ork kits? Imperial Guard kits? Eldar kits? Necron kits?
Would a full quarter of players actually purchase ANY kit other than MAYBE Space Marines?
How do you possibly justify setting your bar that irrationally high?
No it does not make marketing sense. You would be alienating those customers who prefer Space Marines to remain exclusively male in order to gain who exactly? In a market that is saturated with politically correct male/female armies GW offers something that is increasingly rare. It makes no marketing sense to dilute the theme of their most popular product for no reason.
For it to make marketing sense, it needs to make money. It doesn't have to be purchased by every (or even half) of all players. But if a full QUARTER of all GW players made that purchase, honey, that would probably outsell most Space Marine kits.
There aren't enough votes for this to adequately represent the population. You might only be getting votes from people who already play space marines.
Unusual Suspect wrote:The thread's poll suggests something like a (EDIT: Not a full third. actually closer to a quarter) quarter of all players polled would purchase Femarines.
A QUARTER OF ALL THOSE POLLED. A QUARTER.
For it to make marketing sense, it needs to make money. It doesn't have to be purchased by every (or even half) of all players. But if a full QUARTER of all GW players made that purchase, honey, that would probably outsell most Space Marine kits.
Do you think a full quarter of players would purchase Tau kits? Tyranid kits? Ork kits? Imperial Guard kits? Eldar kits? Necron kits?
Would a full quarter of players actually purchase ANY kit other than MAYBE Space Marines?
How do you possibly justify setting your bar that irrationally high?
Fair point.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Marmatag wrote: Rather than making whole kits devoted to female space marines, a set of upgrade sprues to make female space marines would be nice.
I voted yes.
Variety is the spice of life. There are a few girls in my gaming group that would appreciate this.
Purely from a financial perspective, a female space marine upgrade sprue would probably make a lot of sense.
For it to make marketing sense, it needs to make money. It doesn't have to be purchased by every (or even half) of all players. But if a full QUARTER of all GW players made that purchase, honey, that would probably outsell most Space Marine kits.
There aren't enough votes for this to adequately represent the population. You might only be getting votes from people who already play space marines.
Probably true (though I know for a fact that the poll includes "No" results from at least one player who doesn't play Space Marines... me!), though even if that were the case, a full quarter of Space Marine players purchasing that kit would probably STILL outsell other factions.
For it to make marketing sense, it needs to make money. It doesn't have to be purchased by every (or even half) of all players. But if a full QUARTER of all GW players made that purchase, honey, that would probably outsell most Space Marine kits.
There aren't enough votes for this to adequately represent the population. You might only be getting votes from people who already play space marines.
Probably true (though I know for a fact that the poll includes "No" results from at least one player who doesn't play Space Marines... me!), though even if that were the case, a full quarter of Space Marine players purchasing that kit would probably STILL outsell other factions.
That's not a conclusion you can draw; I think you're being facetious though
And I would definitely buy upgrade sprues. I would also buy upgrade sprues that had normal amounts of hair. Not everyone is bald.
Whether it makes sense depends largely on why the SoB have been somewhat neglected and what exactly female space marines entail model wise.
If it is just because the demand isn't there for SoB style models, I'm not sure female space marines will help that. You could try mostly space marine models with only the helmetless models having anything noticeably female about them, in which case it wouldn't even be a new model line so much as a couple new models and a handful of bits. Not a huge amount of profit in this, but honestly wouldn't take much effort either.
On the other hand, if SoB have more of a squat situation going on (no one at GW/few in the community like the theme and play style of the army), then yeah a big thing of noticeably female space marines models could sell well.
Just for sheer visual and story telling variety I'd like to see more female models from GW across the board. But female Marines for the existing Astartes? Nah that ship sailed decades ago. But if GW are introducing NuMarines then they are already taking a big risk by adding a new model range and making a big addition to the games background. A couple of bare heads here and there and a role in the NuMarines fluff would give players an option that they could easily ignore if they wanted to.
I don't think that mixed gender NuMarines would invalidate the SoB any more than having the SoS in 40K does. Providing the Sisters get the support the faction deserves, they have a very clear Catholic church in space turned up to eleven theme. This could provide a good contrast to the NuMarines if as Robute's creation they hold closer to the old Imperial truth.
krazynadechukr wrote: For those wanting a game system that has "female space marines" go here:
Ugh Unless the game is an out and out cliche parody, I'd rather stick with the current sausage party then have models with the sci-fi version of a chainmail bikini.
Otto von Bludd wrote: No it does not make marketing sense. You would be alienating those customers who prefer Space Marines to remain exclusively male in order to gain who exactly? In a market that is saturated with politically correct male/female armies GW offers something that is increasingly rare. It makes no marketing sense to dilute the theme of their most popular product for no reason.
GW has alienated me as a Tau player that preferred my Taus to remain using exclusively tanks, because the idea of giant robots-suits is absurds. But here we are now, with Riptides, Stormsurges and Tau'nar. And it appears that is making money so GW.
In a market that is saturated with Giant-Godzilla-Spam armies GW chosed to offer something of the same, and people buyed that at dozens. They diluted the theme of a popular faction for more money. The only thing here is that Space Marines players are the most entitled players you are gonna encounter out there, that thing all should catter to their tastes and they have the right tho have an opinion on everything that happes related to their faction or no, and that they should reveice a special threatement unlike everyone like the special snowflakes they are.
If tomorrow GW brings to the table a complete female-version of the entire Space Marines Range, they will gain money with that. And not a small amount of money. And I said this without wanting Female Space Marines, I want plastic sisters of battle, but deny reality is to behave like an ostrich, hiding its head in a hole in the ground
Just like Numarines are alienating all the Space Marines players with a model range that from one day to the other, now are midgets. And if you think that isn't gonna sell, oh boy I have something to tell ya!
I do not think we need to see female space marines, I also would not buy them.
But there is other Places that GW needs more, This includes in there stories and the way they write the setting.
I would rather they put some real effort into the setting beyond space marines at this point.
Nope. Certain things are part of a faction's identity. SM being all male (and by extension SOB being all female) is one of them.
Just like you wouldn't give Eldar blocky vehicles or light Jacks in Khador (to give an example from another system). These are part of the design vocabularies, as GW themselves put it; for the factions. You stray too far from these and you risk diluting what makes each faction unique.
Otto von Bludd wrote: No it does not make marketing sense. You would be alienating those customers who prefer Space Marines to remain exclusively male in order to gain who exactly? In a market that is saturated with politically correct male/female armies GW offers something that is increasingly rare. It makes no marketing sense to dilute the theme of their most popular product for no reason.
GW has alienated me as a Tau player that preferred my Taus to remain using exclusively tanks, because the idea of giant robots-suits is absurds. But here we are now, with Riptides, Stormsurges and Tau'nar. And it appears that is making money so GW.
In a market that is saturated with Giant-Godzilla-Spam armies GW chosed to offer something of the same, and people buyed that at dozens. They diluted the theme of a popular faction for more money. The only thing here is that Space Marines players are the most entitled players you are gonna encounter out there, that thing all should catter to their tastes and they have the right tho have an opinion on everything that happes related to their faction or no, and that they should reveice a special threatement unlike everyone like the special snowflakes they are.
If tomorrow GW brings to the table a complete female-version of the entire Space Marines Range, they will gain money with that. And not a small amount of money. And I said this without wanting Female Space Marines, I want plastic sisters of battle, but deny reality is to behave like an ostrich, hiding its head in a hole in the ground
Just like Numarines are alienating all the Space Marines players with a model range that from one day to the other, now are midgets. And if you think that isn't gonna sell, oh boy I have something to tell ya!
I think that the lore-based arguments are tenuous at best.
The simple fact is that GW can change the lore at the drop of a hat.
"Hey, so, guys...know how we thought that there was only male primarch gene seed? Look at what the Cultus Mechanicus found!"
Otto von Bludd wrote: No it does not make marketing sense. You would be alienating those customers who prefer Space Marines to remain exclusively male in order to gain who exactly? In a market that is saturated with politically correct male/female armies GW offers something that is increasingly rare. It makes no marketing sense to dilute the theme of their most popular product for no reason.
Honestly, we don't need players who whine about armies with gender diversity being "politically correct".
Otto von Bludd wrote: No it does not make marketing sense. You would be alienating those customers who prefer Space Marines to remain exclusively male in order to gain who exactly? In a market that is saturated with politically correct male/female armies GW offers something that is increasingly rare. It makes no marketing sense to dilute the theme of their most popular product for no reason.
Honestly, we don't need players who whine about armies with gender diversity being "politically correct".
We also don't need players who whine incessantly about getting gender diversity in the Astartes because an all-male warrior coven hurts their fee-fees.
Otto von Bludd wrote: No it does not make marketing sense. You would be alienating those customers who prefer Space Marines to remain exclusively male in order to gain who exactly? In a market that is saturated with politically correct male/female armies GW offers something that is increasingly rare. It makes no marketing sense to dilute the theme of their most popular product for no reason.
Honestly, we don't need players who whine about armies with gender diversity being "politically correct".
We also don't need players who whine incessantly about getting gender diversity in the Astartes because an all-male warrior coven hurts their fee-fees.
Imagine an internet without those two kinds of people. Beautiful, isn't it?
Verviedi wrote:Honestly, we don't need players who whine about armies with gender diversity being "politically correct".
Several thoughts:
1. Are you really suggesting that people should be excluded from the game based on their political beliefs?
2. Are you really suggesting that people should be excluded from the game based on vocalizing opinions that you disagree with?
3. And to be fair, even if you don't agree with the political sentiment, it would be a perfectly reasonable economic complaint to make if GW decided to "cave in" to the demands of so-called "political correctness" despite the actual wishes of its consumer base, if, in fact, the consumer base were demanding otherwise.
Really, Verviedi, as stated, what you said is 1. unduly offensive/hostile/insulting to people with political opinions that you may not share and 2. is ultimately irrelevant to the topic of the thread.
Otto von Bludd wrote: No it does not make marketing sense. You would be alienating those customers who prefer Space Marines to remain exclusively male in order to gain who exactly? In a market that is saturated with politically correct male/female armies GW offers something that is increasingly rare. It makes no marketing sense to dilute the theme of their most popular product for no reason.
GW has alienated me as a Tau player that preferred my Taus to remain using exclusively tanks, because the idea of giant robots-suits is absurds. But here we are now, with Riptides, Stormsurges and Tau'nar. And it appears that is making money so GW.
In a market that is saturated with Giant-Godzilla-Spam armies GW chosed to offer something of the same, and people buyed that at dozens. They diluted the theme of a popular faction for more money. The only thing here is that Space Marines players are the most entitled players you are gonna encounter out there, that thing all should catter to their tastes and they have the right tho have an opinion on everything that happes related to their faction or no, and that they should reveice a special threatement unlike everyone like the special snowflakes they are.
If tomorrow GW brings to the table a complete female-version of the entire Space Marines Range, they will gain money with that. And not a small amount of money. And I said this without wanting Female Space Marines, I want plastic sisters of battle, but deny reality is to behave like an ostrich, hiding its head in a hole in the ground
Just like Numarines are alienating all the Space Marines players with a model range that from one day to the other, now are midgets. And if you think that isn't gonna sell, oh boy I have something to tell ya!
I think that the lore-based arguments are tenuous at best.
The simple fact is that GW can change the lore at the drop of a hat.
"Hey, so, guys...know how we thought that there was only male primarch gene seed? Look at what the Cultus Mechanicus found!"
Especially since there were female Space Marines referenced in RT era products (e.g. the Little Sisters of Purification). Writing them out of the game came later.
GoatboyBeta wrote: Ugh Unless the game is an out and out cliche parody, I'd rather stick with the current sausage party then have models with the sci-fi version of a chainmail bikini.
I take it you didn't look that close, you only saw the almost tasteful PG 13 stuff. The other half don't even get that much clothing. Of particular interest was the chaos terminator who just has her tits out and no chest armor. Also the naked female greater demon of nurgle who I expect will end up in my nightmares at some point.
Given that the game is a ripoff of an old 40k board game (with literally the same name) I think they were going for cliche parody. Or at least that was the excuse.
OT; does anyone know of the new sisters of silence stuff has been doing well?
Female Marines would be essentially the same as male marines, just with slightly different heads.
Female Guardsmen would be much the same, with perhaps some different fanciness on lady commissars and the like.
What?! No. Female miniatures are impossible to differentiate at this scale without boob-armour or bikinis! We are playing 28mm, not 54mm! Have you tried to see the faces of the Catachans models and see if they are actually male? Omg, they are totally indistingible. Is almost EPIC scale!
Otto von Bludd wrote: No it does not make marketing sense. You would be alienating those customers who prefer Space Marines to remain exclusively male in order to gain who exactly? In a market that is saturated with politically correct male/female armies GW offers something that is increasingly rare. It makes no marketing sense to dilute the theme of their most popular product for no reason.
GW has alienated me as a Tau player that preferred my Taus to remain using exclusively tanks, because the idea of giant robots-suits is absurds. But here we are now, with Riptides, Stormsurges and Tau'nar. And it appears that is making money so GW.
In a market that is saturated with Giant-Godzilla-Spam armies GW chosed to offer something of the same, and people buyed that at dozens. They diluted the theme of a popular faction for more money. The only thing here is that Space Marines players are the most entitled players you are gonna encounter out there, that thing all should catter to their tastes and they have the right tho have an opinion on everything that happes related to their faction or no, and that they should reveice a special threatement unlike everyone like the special snowflakes they are.
If tomorrow GW brings to the table a complete female-version of the entire Space Marines Range, they will gain money with that. And not a small amount of money. And I said this without wanting Female Space Marines, I want plastic sisters of battle, but deny reality is to behave like an ostrich, hiding its head in a hole in the ground
Just like Numarines are alienating all the Space Marines players with a model range that from one day to the other, now are midgets. And if you think that isn't gonna sell, oh boy I have something to tell ya!
I think that the lore-based arguments are tenuous at best.
The simple fact is that GW can change the lore at the drop of a hat.
"Hey, so, guys...know how we thought that there was only male primarch gene seed? Look at what the Cultus Mechanicus found!"
Especially since there were female Space Marines referenced in RT era products (e.g. the Little Sisters of Purification). Writing them out of the game came later.
Female Marines would be essentially the same as male marines, just with slightly different heads.
Female Guardsmen would be much the same, with perhaps some different fanciness on lady commissars and the like.
What?! No. Female miniatures are impossible to differentiate at this scale without boob-armour or bikinis! We are playing 28mm, not 54mm! Have you tried to see the faces of the Catachans models and see if they are actually male? Omg, they are totally indistingible. Is almost EPIC scale!
Female Marines would be essentially the same as male marines, just with slightly different heads.
Female Guardsmen would be much the same, with perhaps some different fanciness on lady commissars and the like.
What?! No. Female miniatures are impossible to differentiate at this scale without boob-armour or bikinis! We are playing 28mm, not 54mm! Have you tried to see the faces of the Catachans models and see if they are actually male? Omg, they are totally indistingible. Is almost EPIC scale!
/S
Or a massive Y in the middle of their foreheads.
Sorry I prefer my female aliens with giant ovopositors in their belly.
That way nobody has any doubt about their sex
Due to the armor space marines wear you can call them male or female, you just never know, unless you want female space marines with boob armor, which is not very effective, nor accurate.
Asterios wrote: Due to the armor space marines wear you can call them male or female, you just never know, unless you want female space marines with boob armor, which is not very effective, nor accurate.
Sir, you have iluminated me. I never tought that Brother Afrax of the 3th Company was actually our sister Afraxity! A shame she had a malfuctioning geneseed that give her facial air and baldness.
Spoiler:
I will say again that I don't want female space marines, but all of this "reasonings" people bring to the table to me are super absurd
Asterios wrote: Due to the armor space marines wear you can call them male or female, you just never know, unless you want female space marines with boob armor, which is not very effective, nor accurate.
Sir, you have iluminated me. I never tought that Brother Afrax of the 3th Company was actually our sister Afraxity! A shame she had a malfuctioning geneseed that give her facial air and baldness.
Spoiler:
I will say again that I don't want female space marines, but all of this "reasonings" people bring to the table to me are super absurd
Simple put a female head on the mini, or keep the helmet on, now can you pick out the female mini with a bunch of space marines with helmets on ?
I take it you didn't look that close, you only saw the almost tasteful PG 13 stuff. The other half don't even get that much clothing. Of particular interest was the chaos terminator who just has her tits out and no chest armor. Also the naked female greater demon of nurgle who I expect will end up in my nightmares at some point.
Given that the game is a ripoff of an old 40k board game (with literally the same name) I think they were going for cliche parody. Or at least that was the excuse.
OT; does anyone know of the new sisters of silence stuff has been doing well?
I actually don't mind the "demon" sculpts to much. The female GUO is I assume intended to be grotesque(and I've unfortunately seen plenty of guys that are close to that body shape) and as "demons" who only have armour for show anyway( remember out of all GW demonic "troops" only the Daemonettes are wearing clothes ) the other three are not too bad.
Asterios wrote: ]Simple put a female head on the mini, or keep the helmet on, now can you pick out the female mini with a bunch of space marines with helmets on ?
I agree with that. If the day comes where GW want to make female space marines, thats how I think they should do it. Just put some female heads in the sprues and call it a day. I was just having a little fun about the concept that space marines are totally indistinguible, specially the chapters that normally don't wear helmets.
For it to make marketing sense, it needs to make money. It doesn't have to be purchased by every (or even half) of all players. But if a full QUARTER of all GW players made that purchase, honey, that would probably outsell most Space Marine kits.
There aren't enough votes for this to adequately represent the population. You might only be getting votes from people who already play space marines.
also I suspect a lot of people ignored this thread. "female space marines" tend to be seen as a troll post by a lot of people
Really what we want and what would solve the problem is plastic SoB with cheaper prices and better rules support that doesn't kick the player in the teeth.
GW can possibly make female SM, but with the SW as the chapter they are in. Someone said Valkyrie's. That would be fitting and thematically cool.
For it to make marketing sense, it needs to make money. It doesn't have to be purchased by every (or even half) of all players. But if a full QUARTER of all GW players made that purchase, honey, that would probably outsell most Space Marine kits.
There aren't enough votes for this to adequately represent the population. You might only be getting votes from people who already play space marines.
also I suspect a lot of people ignored this thread. "female space marines" tend to be seen as a troll post by a lot of people
You can also say those whom say no are to low a total as well to get the overall 40k crowd. This whole poll is really meaningless and somewhat just troll posty.
BrianDavion wrote: also I suspect a lot of people ignored this thread. "female space marines" tend to be seen as a troll post by a lot of people
For good reason - the topic has been done to death, and nobody on either side of the argument will budge on it.
As much as the OP wants this conversation to steer away from all the lore points about female Marines, it can very well be responsible for the poll results. Being a lore fanatic myself, and a secret SoB lover, I know that personally I wouldn't want to buy any, but not everyone cares about that aspect of the hobby.
I doubt the poll would ever be very useful no matter how many people vote on it; as said before, a majority doesn't have to be reached for the idea to be marketable, not that a majority on that side would ever be reached anyway.
BrianDavion wrote: also I suspect a lot of people ignored this thread. "female space marines" tend to be seen as a troll post by a lot of people
For good reason - the topic has been done to death, and nobody on either side of the argument will budge on it.
As much as the OP wants this conversation to steer away from all the lore points about female Marines, it can very well be responsible for the poll results. Being a lore fanatic myself, and a secret SoB lover, I know that personally I wouldn't want to buy any, but not everyone cares about that aspect of the hobby.
I doubt the poll would ever be very useful no matter how many people vote on it; as said before, a majority doesn't have to be reached for the idea to be marketable, not that a majority on that side would ever be reached anyway.
I can't get behind female Space Marines, but on the other hand I could get behind female Imperial Guard.
Otto von Bludd wrote: No it does not make marketing sense. You would be alienating those customers who prefer Space Marines to remain exclusively male in order to gain who exactly? In a market that is saturated with politically correct male/female armies GW offers something that is increasingly rare. It makes no marketing sense to dilute the theme of their most popular product for no reason.
Honestly, we don't need players who whine about armies with gender diversity being "politically correct".
We also don't need players who whine incessantly about getting gender diversity in the Astartes because an all-male warrior coven hurts their fee-fees.
I don't give a single flying about female space marines. The only thing I care about here is this "OMG gender diversity is destroying society" bs that OvB was spouting. Are you really going to defend the person that was talking about GW being the last bastion of homogenity, away from those evil evil women?
Traditio wrote:
Verviedi wrote:Honestly, we don't need players who whine about armies with gender diversity being "politically correct".
Several thoughts:
1. Are you really suggesting that people should be excluded from the game based on their political beliefs?
I believe they should be able to exclude themselves, if they disagree with the choices that the game developers make.
2. Are you really suggesting that people should be excluded from the game based on vocalizing opinions that you disagree with?
If they're spouting racist bull, I fully agree with minority gamers who refuse to play them. If they're spouting sexism, women have the full right to refuse to play against them. In all cases, if you're in favor of discrimation, expect to be viewed unfavorably by those you would discriminate against. If you're talking about how 40k is an affront to Jesus, and LGBT people should be set on fire, I would exercise my right to refuse to play against you, and encourage others to not do so as well.
3. And to be fair, even if you don't agree with the political sentiment, it would be a perfectly reasonable economic complaint to make if GW decided to "cave in" to the demands of so-called "political correctness" despite the actual wishes of its consumer base, if, in fact, the consumer base were demanding otherwise.
GW does as GW chooses. If the customer base dislikes it, so be it. If they make tons of money and bigots decide to exercise their right to quit the hobby because they don't want to share with those "nasty women", so be it.
Really, Verviedi, as stated, what you said is 1. unduly offensive/hostile/insulting to people with political opinions that you may not share and 2. is ultimately irrelevant to the topic of the thread.
Save the politics for the off-topic forum, yes?
OvB said something I believe to be false, I am addressing this. All of this relates to female space marines AND people leaving the game for some reason if female space marines are added to the lore.
OT politics are a dandelion pie(text changed, don't bypass the profanity filter! - Lorek) , I exercise my right to not participate in them. Because what OvB said was political, I am responding to it, because frankly it's nonsense.
Note. I do not care about female space marines in the slightest. What I do care about is ensuring that people who spout about "political correctness" making it so they cannot dismiss entire demographics (READ HIS POST) are addressed.
I admit, I wouldn't buy them simply because I actually like the SoB lore and am annoyed by them being written off. Not to mention that we've never gotten a female IG/AM range for literally no reason.
BrianDavion wrote: also I suspect a lot of people ignored this thread. "female space marines" tend to be seen as a troll post by a lot of people
For good reason - the topic has been done to death, and nobody on either side of the argument will budge on it.
As much as the OP wants this conversation to steer away from all the lore points about female Marines, it can very well be responsible for the poll results. Being a lore fanatic myself, and a secret SoB lover, I know that personally I wouldn't want to buy any, but not everyone cares about that aspect of the hobby.
I doubt the poll would ever be very useful no matter how many people vote on it; as said before, a majority doesn't have to be reached for the idea to be marketable, not that a majority on that side would ever be reached anyway.
I can't get behind female Space Marines, but on the other hand I could get behind female Imperial Guard.
Female Imperial Guard has ben part of the fluff for decades.
And I'm gonna add that at least to me, this image is one of the ones that better reflects the "feeling" of the universe of 40k, at least to me.
BrianDavion wrote: also I suspect a lot of people ignored this thread. "female space marines" tend to be seen as a troll post by a lot of people
For good reason - the topic has been done to death, and nobody on either side of the argument will budge on it.
As much as the OP wants this conversation to steer away from all the lore points about female Marines, it can very well be responsible for the poll results. Being a lore fanatic myself, and a secret SoB lover, I know that personally I wouldn't want to buy any, but not everyone cares about that aspect of the hobby.
I doubt the poll would ever be very useful no matter how many people vote on it; as said before, a majority doesn't have to be reached for the idea to be marketable, not that a majority on that side would ever be reached anyway.
I can't get behind female Space Marines, but on the other hand I could get behind female Imperial Guard.
Female Imperial Guard has ben part of the fluff for decades.
I see it as a game and like most MMOs my characters are female.... I'd play female space marines. I don't know why, not even for sexual fantasy reasons. Maybe I just like the idea...
Plastic sisters first. Then do whatever you want, I couldn't possibly care less if another space marine anything comes out ever (chaos or loyalist) so long as they do plastic sisters first.
I don't give a single flying about female space marines. The only thing I care about here is this "OMG gender diversity is destroying society" bs that OvB was spouting. Are you really going to defend the person that was talking about GW being the last bastion of homogenity, away from those evil evil women?
Half this post, which I'm not quoting in full because it's borderline hysterics, is just unsubstantiated personal attacks. He never said women were evil, or shouldn't play warhammer, or that he hated them. He said he didn't like the current trend of changing things to be more politically correct, doesn't want it applied to space marines.
Asterios wrote:I can't get behind female Space Marines, but on the other hand I could get behind female Imperial Guard.
As can I; I was tempted to get some female Arcadians for my Guard army, but I worried about the clash between the look of their armour and gear next to my regular Cadians. I'd lap up some official female Cadians right away if GW gets round to making them.
Verviedi wrote: I don't give a single flying about female space marines. The only thing I care about here is this "OMG gender diversity is destroying society" bs that OvB was spouting. Are you really going to defend the person that was talking about GW being the last bastion of homogenity, away from those evil evil women?
Are we reading the same post, V? To me it sounded more like GW not caring about political correctness (as they should be, it's a damn hobby, not a moral commitment) rather than "gender diversity is destroying society"
General Annoyance wrote:As much as the OP wants this conversation to steer away from all the lore points about female Marines, it can very well be responsible for the poll results. Being a lore fanatic myself, and a secret SoB lover, I know that personally I wouldn't want to buy any, but not everyone cares about that aspect of the hobby.
What if it were tastefully done and suitably good lore reasons were given, vis-a-vis my valkyries idea?
I don't give a single flying about female space marines. The only thing I care about here is this "OMG gender diversity is destroying society" bs that OvB was spouting. Are you really going to defend the person that was talking about GW being the last bastion of homogenity, away from those evil evil women?
Half this post, which I'm not quoting in full because it's borderline hysterics, is just unsubstantiated personal attacks. He never said women were evil, or shouldn't play warhammer, or that he hated them. He said he didn't like the current trend of changing things to be more politically correct, doesn't want it applied to space marines.
You need to chill.
Otto von Bludd wrote: In a market that is saturated with politically correct male/female armies GW offers something that is increasingly rare.
Meaning,
I don't like the fact that every other manufacturer is mixing in women with men in their armies. Diversity in armies is "politically correct" and therefore evil. GW is the last bastion of protection from this ickiness.
Traditio wrote: What if it were tastefully done and suitably good lore reasons were given, vis-a-vis my valkyries idea?
Apart from them having a Primarch, possibly, but it'd likely cause more issues than it's good for; if even this small contingent of female "Marines" could exist, then why are we keeping the Adepta Sororitas around? Why haven't we heard of them before, and how did they create a workaround the genetic enhancement process that is usually far too vicious for a human female?
SoB are sitting in GW's dark corner of the classroom begging for love. Why can't we just ditch the idea of female Marines and bring them back to the forefront?
Meaning,
I don't like the fact that every other manufacturer is mixing in women with men in their armies. Diversity in armies is "politically correct" and therefore evil. GW is the last bastion of protection from this ickiness.
Congratulations, you've missed both the point and are trying to twist his argument into something it's not even close to what he's saying in order to prove your current crusade right.
Traditio wrote: What if it were tastefully done and suitably good lore reasons were given, vis-a-vis my valkyries idea?
Apart from them having a Primarch, possibly, but it'd likely cause more issues than it's good for; if even this small contingent of female "Marines" could exist, then why are we keeping the Adepta Sororitas around? Why haven't we heard of them before, and how did they create a workaround the genetic enhancement process that is usually far too vicious for a human female?
SoB are sitting in GW's dark corner of the classroom begging for love. Why can't we just ditch the idea of female Marines and bring them back to the forefront?
I don't think some kind of female Space Marines will negate the lore or appeal of the Sororitas, just like Custodes ,Grey Knights and Deathwathc don't eliminate the appeal for Space Marines, or Sisters of Silence negates the Sororitas. Or the proper Space Marines negates Imperial Guard, Tempestus Cions and other elite normal humans like the Karskin, Elysian Drop troops, etc...
Female Space Marines would be the exact same role that Space Marines do. The "Religious zealots" is something proper to the Sisters of Battle. Being female is the least important thing of the characterization of the Sisters of Battle, at least to me.
But appart from that, I agree. I prefer 200 times more plastic Sisters of Battle than Female Space Marines. The new Celestine model and the Geminaes are lovely, just like Greyfax.
General Annoyance wrote:As much as the OP wants this conversation to steer away from all the lore points about female Marines, it can very well be responsible for the poll results. Being a lore fanatic myself, and a secret SoB lover, I know that personally I wouldn't want to buy any, but not everyone cares about that aspect of the hobby.
What if it were tastefully done and suitably good lore reasons were given, vis-a-vis my valkyries idea?
Yes, yes Traditio, you understand now, don't you? Female Warriors can be just as cool as male warriors Come to the dark side.
Unless the game is an out and out cliche parody, I'd rather stick with the current sausage party then have models with the sci-fi version of a chainmail bikini.
about female space marines. The only thing I care about here is this "OMG gender diversity is destroying society" 