Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Before I get to the topic of the thread, I wish to detail what the thread is NOT about:

1. This thread is not about whether or not it makes lore sense for there to be female space marines.

2. This thread is not about whether the lack of female space marines in existing lore is somehow sexist on the part of GW.

3. This thread is not about whether or not female space marines would be viable or have historical precedent.

What this thread IS about is this:

Let us assume that GW decided that female space marines makes sense in terms of the lore, and decided to cash in.

How would that even work?

First and foremost:

How would female space marine models differ from male space marine models? Most space marines are clad in bulky power armor and wear helmets. Granted, we do have some space marines without helmets, and they are all males. But the vast majority of space marines wear helmets. How would a female space marine sculpt qualitatively differ from a male space marine sculpt?

Granted that they did differ, how would that work?

Would GW put both male and female space marines in the same kit? Or would they offer two separate kits?

How would this affect their sales?

Personally, I wouldn't want to purchase a female space marine kit, and the existence of "mixed" kits would just anger me as a consumer.

I'm not giving a yes or no answer but I think it could make marketing sense IF GW can handle it with a bit of class. A bit of research and story about how female marines are now possible rather than just retconning it and saying "it was always possible" I could accept it.

It would want to be a bloody good story though.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I'm not giving a yes or no answer but I think it could make marketing sense IF GW can handle it with a bit of class. A bit of research and story about how female marines are now possible rather than just retconning it and saying "it was always possible" I could accept it.

It would want to be a bloody good story though.

They can do all of the research they want and write whatever story they want:

The question still remains:

Does it make marketing sense?

Would customers want to buy it?

I simply can't imagine a probable set of circumstances in which female space marines wouldn't be a massive marketing failure.

Evidence?

Look at Sisters of Battle.

Yes, there is apparently a cult fanbase for Sisters of Battle.

But I've never seen a Sisters army face to face.

And apparently, GW doesn't seem to think that they sell particularly well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, there's nothing stopping current customers from making female space marines.

All that you have to do is glue adepta sororitas heads onto space marine bodies.

I have yet to see anyone actually do this.

This tells me that there's not really much of a demand for the product.

 Traditio wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I'm not giving a yes or no answer but I think it could make marketing sense IF GW can handle it with a bit of class. A bit of research and story about how female marines are now possible rather than just retconning it and saying "it was always possible" I could accept it.

It would want to be a bloody good story though.

They can do all of the research they want and write whatever story they want:

The question still remains:

Does it make marketing sense?

Would customers want to buy it?

I simply can't imagine a probable set of circumstances in which female space marines wouldn't be a massive marketing failure.

Evidence?

Look at Sisters of Battle.

Yes, there is apparently a cult fanbase for Sisters of Battle.

But I've never seen a Sisters army face to face.

And apparently, GW doesn't seem to think that they sell particularly well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, there's nothing stopping current customers from making female space marines.

All that you have to do is glue adepta sororitas heads onto space marine bodies.

I have yet to see anyone actually do this.

This tells me that there's not really much of a demand for the product.

Here I am. We exist, but are few and far between. I do know at least one other, whom I have met in person, though. There would be more of us, but our figures are $100 per basic infantry squad.

Also, Sisters of Battle don't have separate heads, so you can't just put SoB heads on SM bodies. At the very least, it would take a lot of work to achieve no useful end. Unless you really, really dislike the literal breastplates, but if that impracticality is offensive enough, maybe Sisters of Battle isn't the army for you. We have the BDSM chainsaw antitank suicide squad and a pipe organ on crawler tracks.

If they were to base it on historical information from the Sisters of Battle, no. The SoB community is very small, but reverberates everywhere and has a pretty big voice here in particular.

If we were to ignore historical information, Female Space Marines are still a poor idea when SoB exist and could easily be reworked and revived to fill that gap.

In terms of potential, they could be popular. The reason they most likely aren't is because of poor model and game support.

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Also, Sisters of Battle don't have separate heads, so you can't just put SoB heads on SM bodies. At the very least, it would take a lot of work.

Fair point. But there are other options:

1. I'm sure that there are third party options available which sell female heads.

I haven't seen people use them.

2. There is literally nothing stopping you from taking a standard space marine army, painting the models bright pink and saying: "These are Battle Sisters. They use Sister Marines chapter tactics. It's exactly the same thing as Ultramarines chapter tactics. But they're women!"

I have yet to see anyone do this.

3. There's also nothing stopping you from using sisters of battle models as counts-as space marines.

If people really wanted female space marines, there's nothing in the rules stopping them, and there are ways to do it.

But I haven't seen it.

This makes me question the market-viability of the idea.

Yes for possibly attracting new players or old players who don't care about the fluff and just was fen marines.

No for players who like and understand the fluff.

Edit: oh, in your hypothetical setting where it makes sense in the fluff, why wouldn't it make sense from a marketing perspective.

 Rippy wrote:
Yes for possibly attracting new players or old players who don't care about the fluff and just was fen marines.

No for players who like and understand the fluff.

This comment has the dangerous potential of steering us away from the topic. Let these comments suffice:

What makes the setting of 40k attractive is that it's fething huge. Pretty much anything can happen.

There's no reason why, out of all of the successor chapters, one of them can't have some women, or even be all women.

The universe is a big place. 10 thousand years from the Horus Heresy is a long time.

Who knows?

For the purposes of this thread, I wish to assume that female space marines are at least possible in terms of the fluff.

My question is solely about their market viability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

General Annoyance wrote:In terms of potential, they could be popular.

How would they pull that off, though?

That's what I'm not understanding.

How would that even work?

Would they make the standard space marines box a "mix" of male and female models?

Would they sell separate male space marine kits and female space marine kits?

I simply can't see any of these possibilities being a financially good idea for GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rippy wrote: why wouldn't it make sense from a marketing perspective.

Who the feth would buy it?

 Traditio wrote:
This comment has the dangerous potential of steering us away from the topic. Let these comments suffice:

What makes the setting of 40k attractive is that it's fething huge. Pretty much anything can happen.

There's no reason why, out of all of the successor chapters, one of them can't have some women, or even be all women.

The universe is a big place. 10 thousand years from the Horus Heresy is a long time.

Who knows?

For the purposes of this thread, I wish to assume that female space marines are at least possible in terms of the fluff.

My question is solely about their market viability.

This is something most people would not agree on, me included; the idea of female Space Marines completely neuter the point of SoB - there would be no point for SoB to exist if we could have female Marines.

Which is also why female Space Marines are a poor idea market wise. Why strip out fluff for one faction to make a new one when you can just revive that faction and bring it back to the forefront?

You only find SOB armies rare because of sheer cost.

There £50 a 10 squad. In metal. No options. Less points to.

Marines are around 30. Plastic. + options.

Now specialists cost alot plus the only two tanks they use one I think is not made, they have very little support model range wise.

Thr costs just keep adding up and up.
A full sisters army is lovely sight. Its also a very wallet heavy one.

General Annoyance wrote:This is something most people would not agree on, me included; the idea of female Space Marines completely neuter the point of SoB - there would be no point for SoB to exist if we could have female Marines.

Which is also why female Space Marines are a poor idea market wise. Why strip out fluff for one faction to make a new one when you can just revive that faction and bring it back to the forefront?

I disagree with your assessment, but I ultimately agree with your conclusion.

In fact, the general feel of the space marine vs. sisters of battle distinction as a kind of secular, militaristic monk vs. nun distinction is something which is deeply ingrained in the fluff.

Ultimately, I disagree with you that female space marines would somehow "completely neuter the point of SoB" (why would female equivalents of Captain America somehow neuter the idea of atheistic secular war nuns?).

Either way, in terms of market viability, I do agree with you that there would be aesthetic conflicts:

Why purchase an adepta sororitas model when you just as easily could purchase the female space marine kit?

Especially if you don't know anything about the factions prior to making the purchase...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jhe90 wrote:
You only find SOB armies rare because of sheer cost.

There £50 a 10 squad. In metal. No options. Less points to.

Marines are around 30. Plastic. + options.

Now specialists cost alot plus the only two tanks they use one I think is not made, they have very little support model range wise.

Thr costs just keep adding up and up.
A full sisters army is lovely sight. Its also a very wallet heavy one.

Even if Sisters of Battle were 1. plastic and 2. cheaper, would all that many more people buy them?

I don't see many people on dakka forums complaining about how they WISHED that they could afford to field a sisters of battle army.

Pretty much all of the complaining about sisters of battle seems to come from...people who already own sisters of battle armies.

Also, I wish to note:

Purely in terms of the rules:

There's nothing stopping you from painting a tactical squad pink and saying: "This is, in fact, a unit of sisters of battle."

I have yet to see it.

 Traditio wrote:
Ultimately, I disagree with you that female space marines would somehow "completely neuter the point of SoB" (why would female equivalents of Captain America somehow neuter the idea of atheistic secular war nuns?).

Because a female Space Marine would have a Black Carapace, as well as the other 13 Marine Implants, making them objectively better than SoB as soldiers. You could argue over the zealous nature of SoB beating Marines, but there would be no reason why that wouldn't carry over if female Marines can.

Either way, in terms of market viability, I do agree with you that there would be aesthetic conflicts:

Why purchase an adepta sororitas model when you just as easily could purchase the female space marine kit?

Especially if you don't know anything about the factions prior to making the purchase...

It's less about the aesthetic separation, and more about the fact that we already have SoB; why not just give them a boost to be a fully fledged faction? Whether female Marines were to be released or not, it doesn't make sense to leave them in the dirt, especially when we consider their aesthetic appeal and differences to the Adeptus Astartes in unit composition and looks.

General Annoyance wrote:Because a female Space Marine would have a Black Carapace, as well as the other 13 Marine Implants, making them objectively better than SoB as soldiers. You could argue over the zealous nature of SoB beating Marines, but there would be no reason why that wouldn't carry over if female Marines can.

You could make the same argument about Space Marines vs. Imperial Guard.

At the end of the day, I don't think that the male-female distinction matters all that much.

Sisters of Battle are ordinary human beings who are part of the Ecclesiarchy, whereas space marines are genetically modified super soldiers.

Yes it does - female models etc are now prevalent in pretty all much gaming systems - they are not niche just part of the setting - as it should be.

Sisters have not been supported so its not a decent comparison.

They didn't bother putting any female bodies in Genestlealer cults - now being a very icky cult many of the females would be honoured (or otherwise) breeding stock but the fluff does talk about the parents of both sexes taking part in the uprisings and defending their offspring...........

Female guardsmen are often in the novels and fluff - but yep no models

Knights now have canon (Gathering Storm sourcebook for one source) female pilots.

soo why no models? GW do seem to think that they will not sell and that may contiiue.

GW is usually very reluctant to have female units - they can just about manage to have single characters ( "exceptions" ) sculpted but they really have trouble imagining female units will sell.

Sisters of Silence are out and again be interesting to see if they expand (as Custodians are doing) or not.

It was interesting that we had a number of female special characters in the Gathering Storm with models - Celestine and her bodyguards, GreyFax and Yvrainne - they will look at their sales but might also (sadly) think "oh well they bought the box cos of the other stuff and tolerated the female models - that does seem to be an attitude from conversations I have had with female staff......

Personally I prefer mixed sex units in the fluff appropriate areas - So Guard, Mechancius Dark Eldar, Eldar, Tau.

IMO Marines and Sisters (of both variety) should be male and female respectively as that's the fluff for them.

Now Female Custodes - not sure if there is much been written about the process of creating them and if there is any fluff based gender restrictions.

 Traditio wrote:
You could make the same argument about Space Marines vs. Imperial Guard.

Guard have a massive variation of different units/vehicles to Marines, and overwhelming numbers. The difference between SoB and Marines would be minute if you were to grant the idea of female Marines.

 General Annoyance wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
You could make the same argument about Space Marines vs. Imperial Guard.

Guard have a massive variation of different units/vehicles to Marines, and overwhelming numbers. The difference between SoB and Marines would be minute if you were to grant the idea of female Marines.

Fluffwise, I don't think that's true.

Marketing-wise, I think that's difficult to disagree with.

What makes the setting of 40k attractive is that it's fething huge. Pretty much anything can happen.

That's somewhat a dangerous assertion because it implies that the fluff is loose enough that it can be ignored outright when it comes to canon things. You won't find an Ethereal as lower then Fire Warriors in rank for example. Nor would you find a peaceful Khornate Daemon that is nonviolent and preaches veganism. The assertion alone is dangerous to think of.

..However I will accept one sort of female marine, a half-female/male Slaaneshi marine given that it is one of his common gifts. She loves the whole split aesthetic and as a result his followers, marines included could pull that off... Now if you're talking about pure marines? No, I wouldn't accept such.

If SoB cost less, had more support and model ranging id consider collecting.

Now as for marines. Nope just nope.
A marine model has like twice bulk, is taller.
Heavy weapon kit marines now get bulked out legs 3-4 times a sisters.

They just don,t feel right. Marines and sisters ment to be distinct.

Now sure I could use SOS...
But they are 70 for 10 and only covers my basic infantry..

So plastic.. Then id give em a look if i had funds.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

What makes the setting of 40k attractive is that it's fething huge. Pretty much anything can happen.

That's somewhat a dangerous assertion because it implies that the fluff is loose enough that it can be ignored outright when it comes to canon things. You won't find an Ethereal as lower then Fire Warriors in rank for example. Nor would you find a peaceful Khornate Daemon that is nonviolent and preaches veganism. The assertion alone is dangerous to think of.

..However I will accept one sort of female marine, a half-female/male Slaaneshi marine given that it is one of his common gifts. She loves the whole split aesthetic and as a result his followers, marines included could pull that off... Now if you're talking about pure marines? No, I wouldn't accept such.

Is there anything in the lore which says that females are incapable of receiving the implants, genetic modifications, indoctrination, etc. which are proper to space marines?

Adding female marines does nothing for you except potentially angering your player base.

The background is the thing that draws people to the game, nerds care a lot about lore and as aos showed messing with that causes a massive backlash which can negatively affect your sales.

Adding female marines also won't lead to new players because women like co-op games not cooperative ones as a general rule which is why loads raid in wow but the CS scene is dominated by guys.

Xwing has tons of female pilots many of them are amongst the stronger pilots but still its men playing.

So the potential negatives far out way any positives.

 Traditio wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

What makes the setting of 40k attractive is that it's fething huge. Pretty much anything can happen.

That's somewhat a dangerous assertion because it implies that the fluff is loose enough that it can be ignored outright when it comes to canon things. You won't find an Ethereal as lower then Fire Warriors in rank for example. Nor would you find a peaceful Khornate Daemon that is nonviolent and preaches veganism. The assertion alone is dangerous to think of.

..However I will accept one sort of female marine, a half-female/male Slaaneshi marine given that it is one of his common gifts. She loves the whole split aesthetic and as a result his followers, marines included could pull that off... Now if you're talking about pure marines? No, I wouldn't accept such.

Is there anything in the lore which says that females are incapable of receiving the implants, genetic modifications, indoctrination, etc. which are proper to space marines?

Yes, quite a bit. Which is why you tend to get a glare from lore purists when you start mentioning female marines because the arguments have been heard time, and time again.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

What makes the setting of 40k attractive is that it's fething huge. Pretty much anything can happen.

That's somewhat a dangerous assertion because it implies that the fluff is loose enough that it can be ignored outright when it comes to canon things. You won't find an Ethereal as lower then Fire Warriors in rank for example. Nor would you find a peaceful Khornate Daemon that is nonviolent and preaches veganism. The assertion alone is dangerous to think of.

I find your use of "dangerous" curious, I don't see it as remotely dangerous if someone wants to bend the fluff to their desires. I reckon the whole reason GW originally made 40k a mostly unexplored universe was to allow people to do whatever they wanted and just write it off as "well, that occurs in this sector of the galaxy you've never heard about before".

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

What makes the setting of 40k attractive is that it's fething huge. Pretty much anything can happen.

That's somewhat a dangerous assertion because it implies that the fluff is loose enough that it can be ignored outright when it comes to canon things. You won't find an Ethereal as lower then Fire Warriors in rank for example. Nor would you find a peaceful Khornate Daemon that is nonviolent and preaches veganism. The assertion alone is dangerous to think of.

I find your use of "dangerous" curious, I don't see it as remotely dangerous if someone wants to bend the fluff to their desires. I reckon the whole reason GW originally made 40k a mostly unexplored universe was to allow people to do whatever they wanted and just write it off as "well, that occurs in this sector of the galaxy you've never heard about before".

There's a difference between bending and outright breaking it over your knee. At some point it makes it sound like you don't really care about the setting at all and may desire another one instead.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Yes, quite a bit. Which is why you tend to get a glare from lore purists when you start mentioning female marines because the arguments have been heard time, and time again.

1. I've not heard these lore citations.

2. Nu-marines.

If GW can write nu-marines into the plot, there's literally no reason why they couldn't write female space marines into the plot.

And even if female space marines wouldn't have the exact genetic augments that male space marines have, why couldn't they have different ones?

But again, this has the dangerous potential of leading us off into too-controversial waters.

What is your opinion on the market viability of female space marines?

Would you buy?

1. I've not heard these lore citations.

Then look it up.

2. Nu-marines.

Being made by the same near process as old marines.

If GW can write nu-marines into the plot, there's literally no reason why they couldn't write female space marines into the plot.

See above.

Would you buy?

I've mentioned the context I might buy for .

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

1. I've not heard these lore citations.

Then look it up.

2. Nu-marines.

Being made by the same near process as old marines.

If GW can write nu-marines into the plot, there's literally no reason why they couldn't write female space marines into the plot.

See above.

With all due respect, I find this untenable.

At the end of the day, the distinction between a male space marine and an imperial guardsman is exactly the same distinction as would apply between a female space marine and a sister of battle:

Genetically modified vs. genetically unmodified.

In order for you to make the claim that there can't be female space marines, you'd have to argue that it would be absolutely impossible for GW to write some version of genetically altered female super soldiers (i.e., female Captains America) into the setting.

I think that any reasonable person would quickly see that there's no reason why this should be true.

However:

Given things.. Would they have the standard SM armor and just different heads? Poor in this case because you'd just be selling SM models with a different head style. With boobplate? You cut into Sister of Battle market (Should they choose to revive it of course)

I do agree with you here.

There are ultimately three options:

1. Make a female space marine kit which looks very much like sisters of battle (at which point, what is the aesthetic point of sisters of battle?).

2. Make a female space marine kit which supplies female heads instead of male heads (who would buy that?).

or

3. Make a kit which offers both male and female heads, or else, both male and female sculpts (and risk angering the consumer base).

At the end of the day:

I have no lore objections to the idea.

I have every marketing objection to the idea. I think it would be a massive sales flop.

At the end of the day, the distinction between a male space marine and an imperial guardsman

Strong built to order elite monk soldiers vs that of endless masses of normal recruits?

as would apply between a female space marine and a sister of battle:

Genetically modified elite soldier vs more elite then normal soldiers and have angelic powers bestowed upon them by the God Emperor through their purity of self and belief? Somehow I believe you are ignoring alot of things in order to try and force a point which can't stand on its own.

In order for you to make the claim that there can't be female space marines, you'd have to argue that it would be absolutely impossible for GW to write some version of genetically altered female super soldiers (i.e., female Captains America) into the setting.

They potentially could, but given the backlash when they turned Captain America into a Hydra Agent in order to put someone else into the Captain America suit that didn't match it well enough it would hurt them to do so.

For already existing marines it wouldn't be viable as much of the customer base has had what? 30 years of fluff saying 'm girls allowed? Numarines on the other hand made by Rowboat Girlyman (hence 'girlymarines ') and and some old cult dude I don't care to remember: GW can make new fluff for them saying it cam happen now and then they can release mixed sprues- even if it's 1 or 2 female heads per sprue. They have that licence and freedom. Would people buy it? Absolutely. Why? People want shinies and girlymarines will have shiny rules to go with their new release. Simple as that.

That said. *insert long rant full of colourful language and insult pointing out that SoB are here and so on and so forth.*

My only qualms with Female Astartes is the lore against it.

If NuMarines were to be mixed gender, I'd have no issue.

However, I'm generally of the opinion that, because of all the implants and suchlike, a Female Space Marine would look identical to a current Space Marine, maybe excluding a slightly more feminine voice. Essentially, that would mean nothing for a new kit, other than perhaps a slightly softer looking face. Boobplate and ponytails not needed.

Regarding lore, which is my only issue with females being in the "normal" Space Marines, I'd have to ask "why change it? What purpose does it give?"

As for the question raised, I think it makes absolute sense provided it's done right. However, I'd still rather have Sisters renewed and redone before these NuMarines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

What makes the setting of 40k attractive is that it's fething huge. Pretty much anything can happen.

That's somewhat a dangerous assertion because it implies that the fluff is loose enough that it can be ignored outright when it comes to canon things. You won't find an Ethereal as lower then Fire Warriors in rank for example. Nor would you find a peaceful Khornate Daemon that is nonviolent and preaches veganism. The assertion alone is dangerous to think of.

..However I will accept one sort of female marine, a half-female/male Slaaneshi marine given that it is one of his common gifts. She loves the whole split aesthetic and as a result his followers, marines included could pull that off... Now if you're talking about pure marines? No, I wouldn't accept such.

Is there anything in the lore which says that females are incapable of receiving the implants, genetic modifications, indoctrination, etc. which are proper to space marines?

Yes. Seeing as your OP asks against it, I won't post it here, but there is canon confirmation (that hasn't been redacted or reworked) that the implantation process is impossible for female candidates.

See the female NuMarines thread for details on that.

 Traditio wrote:

Evidence?

Look at Sisters of Battle.

Yes, there is apparently a cult fanbase for Sisters of Battle.

But I've never seen a Sisters army face to face.

And apparently, GW doesn't seem to think that they sell particularly well.

Well actually Tradito, you are slightly wrong there. Yes, Sisters have a massive following but the reason that they do not sell is because the kits are now just over 20 years old and still in the original 1997 era monopose single piece sculpts which despite being lovely classic pieces are showing their age and quite frankly should have been updated years ago. The ludicrous prices that GW demand for these ancient figures is the final nail in an already secure coffin. There is a huge demand for Sisters miniatures, as the sales from the limited edition Cannoness figure showed. Well, I say sales, but it was more like a scourging of the stores as she sold out within hours - and that was only in the places where there where still models left after the preorders had been through.

So yes, there is a market for female space marines/Sisters of Battle, but the chances of GW ever taking advantage of this is nil.