With recent events occurring on Baal, I see a lot of people discussing the idea that Sanguinius will return in the same manner Guilliman has to save the day. Its time to let go man. He's gone. In fact, he is so dead that Blood Angels are still feeling the pain of his death 10,000 years later.
When their beloved Primarch was slain at the hands of the Arch-traitor Horus at the very height of the Horus Heresy, every Blood Angel was doomed to share a portion of the pain inflicted upon his flawless form. From that day forth, every Blood Angel has been tormented by visions of the last moment of Sanguinius. The older the Space Marine gets, the more frequent and debilitating such waking nightmares become. Should he not fall in battle, every Blood Angel will one day become so consumed by these soul-searing visions that he will descend into a madness in which he must witness the death of Sanguinius over and over again, ever unable to intervene as the Warmaster enacts his vile treachery.
In all of 40K, Sanguinius is amongst the top 3 most dead characters in the entire setting. Don't get me wrong, Blood Angels/Salamanders/Black Templar are my favorite SM chapters. Imo, Sanguinius is probably the most badass primarch since he defeated Khabandha & attempted to defeat Horus infused by the chaos gods alone.
We all love Sanguinius, but hes gone man. He died with greater honor than pretty much anyone. Bringing him back would do more damage to the setting than good.
Except i heard a rumour that the horus heresy is getting retconned somewhere along the line. So we might wake up tomorrow and oh yeah sanguinius went into a coma that just looked like he died and now he's woken up and wants to know if that music group is still together and playing. Just saying.
Sanguinius' death, along with that of Ollanius Pius, is what finally prompted the Emperor to stop holding back. Other than Horus himself Sanguinius is the deadest of the Primarchs along with Ferrus Manus. Retconning him back in as being alive all along would be dumb. As a reincarnation, sure, there's precedence, but being alive all along? Nope.
Wait?! What?! Seriously. Have you guys just never read any Blood Angel codex ever? Ignored the Swallow books completely?! Do you really come to a lore conversation knowing absolutely nothing of the actual lore you're taking about. Because in 2005 we got beat you over your head, can't miss it if you're literate, short of a neon sign, foreshadowing of "Horus might go bad" level obvious warnings that Sanguinius wasn't staying dead. If you missed this TWELVE YEAR HINT DROPPED EVEYWHERE, often, posted on walls, mentioned consistently in multiple unit summaries, chapter materials, codices, short stories, and the actual name of a unit... you forfeit the right to converse about fluff in a fluff rich game.
I mean they flat out told you he was coming back. If this caught you off guard, go watch Scooby Doo episodes, I bet the end will shock you every time.
Let me make the same call everyone could make 12 years and 4 editions ago... Sanguinius is coming back or at least Azkaellon will be reformed as Sanguinius reborn. The retcon will be if he doesn't
I'd hate them to bring back Sanguinius or change the fluff so that he never died. I'm open minded to GW changing the HH fluff to some degree, but I'd prefer that they kill more primarchs rather than find reasons for them to still be around
I'm a supporter of primarchs coming back to 40k, but I think a good balance can be reached where some of the missing/daemon primarchs actually die in the heresy and a handful make it to 40k with Guilliman and Magnus. It would be absurd if a majority of primarchs are still around in 40k, it would really cheapen the 30k lore
Maybe i'm just an old codger, but i remember the good old days where both marines *and* primarchs could and did die of old age. There were two primarchs that could be brought back, and one of them (rowboat) was iffy due to that whole poisonous slash to the neck thing. Nowadays, every primarch is just lurking the in the darkness waiting for the prophecy to be fulfilled so that they can return. It ain't right i tells ya.
Torga_DW wrote: Maybe i'm just an old codger, but i remember the good old days where both marines *and* primarchs could and did die of old age. There were two primarchs that could be brought back, and one of them (rowboat) was iffy due to that whole poisonous slash to the neck thing. Nowadays, every primarch is just lurking the in the darkness waiting for the prophecy to be fulfilled so that they can return. It ain't right i tells ya.
I'm of the same mindset. Maybe I am just old but when people die, I expect them to stay dead. Its part of advancing the story. They're many characters I'd like to see come back, but this is supposed to be a grimdark setting. If every important character that dies comes back because "reasons" it negatively impacts the setting as a whole. Several of the primarchs could very well be alive. Why not focus on bringing the ones shrouded in mystery rather than bringing back those who are well beyond dead?
Bringing back Sanguinius will not make him more interesting or improve the setting. He reached the height of any mans glory. Let him rest & honor his memory.
Maybe Blood Angels find out that the psy echo of Sanguinius death is his essence scattered through his sons, waiting to reborn in the darkest hour.
The entire chapter the vessel of Primarch's soul, safe from Chaos through the millennias, Red thirst and Black Rage the pain for future reborn and salvation.
I think the best (most humourous?) way to bring him back is just to bring him back and not talk about it. Sorta like one of those old x-files episodes where mulder dies at the end of one episode (or is about to get an arm cut off or something) and then the next episode he's all well and good and they *just* *don't* *talk* *about* *it*.
In all of 40K, Sanguinius is amongst the top 3 most dead characters in the entire setting.
Bucky Barnes.
Jason Todd.
20 years ago everyone would have said those two where deader then dead.
there is ample room for Sanguinis to be brought back should GW desire it most likely he'll be reincarnated through the sanguinor and some fancy warp BS
Lobukia wrote: Wait?! What?! Seriously. Have you guys just never read any Blood Angel codex ever? Ignored the Swallow books completely?! Do you really come to a lore conversation knowing absolutely nothing of the actual lore you're taking about. Because in 2005 we got beat you over your head, can't miss it if you're literate, short of a neon sign, foreshadowing of "Horus might go bad" level obvious warnings that Sanguinius wasn't staying dead. If you missed this TWELVE YEAR HINT DROPPED EVEYWHERE, often, posted on walls, mentioned consistently in multiple unit summaries, chapter materials, codices, short stories, and the actual name of a unit... you forfeit the right to converse about fluff in a fluff rich game.
I mean they flat out told you he was coming back. If this caught you off guard, go watch Scooby Doo episodes, I bet the end will shock you every time.
Let me make the same call everyone could make 12 years and 4 editions ago... Sanguinius is coming back or at least Azkaellon will be reformed as Sanguinius reborn. The retcon will be if he doesn't
No. 40k used to be setting for you to make up your own stories. Those were just plot hooks for players to use if they wanted.
It's only now that current GW mixed terms setting and story and decided ignore what 40k was to make a cash grab.
Lobukia wrote: Wait?! What?! Seriously. Have you guys just never read any Blood Angel codex ever? Ignored the Swallow books completely?! Do you really come to a lore conversation knowing absolutely nothing of the actual lore you're taking about. Because in 2005 we got beat you over your head, can't miss it if you're literate, short of a neon sign, foreshadowing of "Horus might go bad" level obvious warnings that Sanguinius wasn't staying dead. If you missed this TWELVE YEAR HINT DROPPED EVEYWHERE, often, posted on walls, mentioned consistently in multiple unit summaries, chapter materials, codices, short stories, and the actual name of a unit... you forfeit the right to converse about fluff in a fluff rich game.
I mean they flat out told you he was coming back. If this caught you off guard, go watch Scooby Doo episodes, I bet the end will shock you every time.
Let me make the same call everyone could make 12 years and 4 editions ago... Sanguinius is coming back or at least Azkaellon will be reformed as Sanguinius reborn. The retcon will be if he doesn't
No. 40k used to be setting for you to make up your own stories. Those were just plot hooks for players to use if they wanted.
It's only now that current GW mixed terms setting and story and decided ignore what 40k was to make a cash grab.
moving the story forward isn't going to have much impact on "your dudes" unless your army is Ultramarines, Blood Angels, or another cannon chapter/army you're not going to be impacted by things much if at all.
My "Emperor's Pink Marines" chapter fighting in my local gaming scene in the "local club sector" isn't going to be that impacted by Cadia falling. the space wolves losing their home etc. the 40k setting is so LARGE GW can do story stuff, with LOTS of room in the margins and cracks for us to fill in with our imagination.
I used to play Battletech, I stopped actively playing it because of the speed of the setting changes, the differance is that the setting consists of basicly 2000 worlds, and the writers in their "wisdom" decided to nuke the Mercenary recruiting world.
the changes to 40k? sure they're big but for most of us they're also pretty much ignorable.
Nah. All the Sisters of Battle will sacrifice themselves to resurrect Sanguinius. Once the last Sister is dead, Sanguinius will rise again, piloting a flying Imperial Knight armed with hundreds of multi-lasers.
moving the story forward isn't going to have much impact on "your dudes" unless your army is Ultramarines, Blood Angels, or another cannon chapter/army you're not going to be impacted by things much if at all.
My "Emperor's Pink Marines" chapter fighting in my local gaming scene in the "local club sector" isn't going to be that impacted by Cadia falling. the space wolves losing their home etc. the 40k setting is so LARGE GW can do story stuff, with LOTS of room in the margins and cracks for us to fill in with our imagination.
I used to play Battletech, I stopped actively playing it because of the speed of the setting changes, the differance is that the setting consists of basicly 2000 worlds, and the writers in their "wisdom" decided to nuke the Mercenary recruiting world.
the changes to 40k? sure they're big but for most of us they're also pretty much ignorable.
Well does mean I'm 100% unable to utilize anything of their fluff and numarines are 100% locked out as well.
It's entirey plausible that the Yinnari (spelling?) come hopping out of the webway somewhere in the Baal system and help the Blood Angels defeat some splinter fleet of Tyranids, then request an audience with Dante.
Yvraine brought back a long dead Rubric Marine right in front of Ahriman from literal dust and bones. Sanguinius has a mortal wound but his body has been kept in stasis since hours or at most a few days since his death. It's currently held in stasis beneath the Blood Angels fortress monastery on Baal.
It's entirely plausible she could restore Sanguinius to life. She restored Guilliman after he dies when the stasis field went down, and Cawl's new armor is keeping the poison Fulgrim used at bay.
The Imperium Nihilus will need a hero to rally the forces trapped in the space above the great warp scar spanning the galaxy. I can think of no better hero to stand and fight for the "Dark Imperium" than a LITERAL Angel with a golden halo of light 'round his head.
It's not retconning anything either with this progression, at least. It's taking current story and advancing it in a fairly logical direction based on what has happened up to this point with the story, what with Fall of Cadia and Rise of the Primarch.
Don't write it off is all I'm saying. Let's see what comes, first.
Red__Thirst wrote: It's entirey plausible that the Yinnari (spelling?) come hopping out of the webway somewhere in the Baal system and help the Blood Angels defeat some splinter fleet of Tyranids, then request an audience with Dante.
Yvraine brought back a long dead Rubric Marine right in front of Ahriman from literal dust and bones. Sanguinius has a mortal wound but his body has been kept in stasis since hours or at most a few days since his death. It's currently held in stasis beneath the Blood Angels fortress monastery on Baal.
It's entirely plausible she could restore Sanguinius to life. She restored Guilliman after he dies when the stasis field went down, and Cawl's new armor is keeping the poison Fulgrim used at bay.
The Imperium Nihilus will need a hero to rally the forces trapped in the space above the great warp scar spanning the galaxy. I can think of no better hero to stand and fight for the "Dark Imperium" than a LITERAL Angel with a golden halo of light 'round his head.
It's not retconning anything either with this progression, at least. It's taking current story and advancing it in a fairly logical direction based on what has happened up to this point with the story, what with Fall of Cadia and Rise of the Primarch.
Don't write it off is all I'm saying. Let's see what comes, first.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
I get where you are coming from & maybe that is exactly how it will play out. Perhaps Yvraine will bring back Sanguinius in the same manner Guilliman was resurrected. Will the story be better for it though? If Sanguinius can be brought back, why couldn't the Emperor? Why not bring back Lord Solar Macharius & every other hero of the IoM? The death of Horus was the most significant event to occur in the 40K setting. Largely due to the death of both Sanguinius & the emperor. By bringing back Sanguinius it makes that event less significant. Sanguinius sacrifice cannot be surpassed.
Again, I'm not hating on Sanguinius or Blood Angels. I'm a big fan of both. I just don't see how it improves the setting. Its kind of like what happened in Game of Thrones recently. One of the main reasons people watch Game of Thrones is because anyone could die. Recently however, several characters which were deemed dead, or died came back to life due to plot armor. In doing so, it allows the audience to latch onto those characters because they know they have said plot armor and they will not die. In the end, the very thing that attracted said audience to the show was lost in the process.
Commissar Benny wrote: I get where you are coming from & maybe that is exactly how it will play out. Perhaps Yvraine will bring back Sanguinius in the same manner Guilliman was resurrected. Will the story be better for it though? If Sanguinius can be brought back, why couldn't the Emperor? Why not bring back Lord Solar Macharius & every other hero of the IoM? The death of Horus was the most significant event to occur in the 40K setting. Largely due to the death of both Sanguinius & the emperor. By bringing back Sanguinius it makes that event less significant. Sanguinius sacrifice cannot be surpassed.
GW should give out SOME logical limits for Yvraine's power. Otherwise it's completely illogical why it's not resurrecting...well basically everybody that would fight for them.
You don't need fiction to follow IRL rules to be realistic. You do need internal logic though. If you introduce somebody bringing dead back you need to think what it would mean. And logically it would result in lots of people getting...well resurrected! If you don't want death become irrelevant by everybody being brought back you need to have some sort of limitations to the power. That or figure how world becomes when death is no worry anymore and everybody is essentially immortal.
Now not saying Yvraine is bad and maybe GW HAS explained somewhere what it's limitations are and why it's not resurrecting big names left and right.
I'm a supporter of primarchs coming back to 40k, but I think a good balance can be reached where some of the missing/daemon primarchs actually die in the heresy and a handful make it to 40k with Guilliman and Magnus. It would be absurd if a majority of primarchs are still around in 40k, it would really cheapen the 30k lore
This. If you start bringing back every Primarch and his dog back the whole thing loses weight. Those handful that managed to survive this long? A really big deal. Not so much if literally everyone came back.I love the Blood Angels, use to have an army at one point, but the permadeath of Sanguinus is part of their appeal. Arguably the most noble and heroic of the chapters and their Primarch made the most heroic and noble of sacrifices.
At MOST I can see the factured psych of Sanguinus within the chapter curse taking a physical form in a moment of dire need. But a full on return from the dead? That hasn't been alluded to, and it's be a bad(story wise) thing if it did. People stop reading books or watching TV shows if every major conclusive death is handwaved away, same principle applies here.
Nah. All the Sisters of Battle will sacrifice themselves to resurrect Sanguinius. Once the last Sister is dead, Sanguinius will rise again, piloting a flying Imperial Knight armed with hundreds of multi-lasers.
Commissar Benny wrote: I get where you are coming from & maybe that is exactly how it will play out. Perhaps Yvraine will bring back Sanguinius in the same manner Guilliman was resurrected. Will the story be better for it though? If Sanguinius can be brought back, why couldn't the Emperor? Why not bring back Lord Solar Macharius & every other hero of the IoM? The death of Horus was the most significant event to occur in the 40K setting. Largely due to the death of both Sanguinius & the emperor. By bringing back Sanguinius it makes that event less significant. Sanguinius sacrifice cannot be surpassed.
GW should give out SOME logical limits for Yvraine's power. Otherwise it's completely illogical why it's not resurrecting...well basically everybody that would fight for them.
You don't need fiction to follow IRL rules to be realistic. You do need internal logic though. If you introduce somebody bringing dead back you need to think what it would mean. And logically it would result in lots of people getting...well resurrected! If you don't want death become irrelevant by everybody being brought back you need to have some sort of limitations to the power. That or figure how world becomes when death is no worry anymore and everybody is essentially immortal.
Now not saying Yvraine is bad and maybe GW HAS explained somewhere what it's limitations are and why it's not resurrecting big names left and right.
Far as we know Yrvine's pwoers are pretty limited. it looks like Yrvvine can only interact with souls AS THEY DEPART. in other words the person's got to literally be dying at the time they're ressurected. also given Gulliman HAS to wear the armor, chances are Yrvvine cannot heal the PHYSICAL damage. (thats what Cawl and the armor was for. Yrvvine, simply "repaired the damage to his soul")
BrianDavion wrote: Far as we know Yrvine's pwoers are pretty limited. it looks like Yrvvine can only interact with souls AS THEY DEPART. in other words the person's got to literally be dying at the time they're ressurected. also given Gulliman HAS to wear the armor, chances are Yrvvine cannot heal the PHYSICAL damage. (thats what Cawl and the armor was for. Yrvvine, simply "repaired the damage to his soul")
Couldn't the Emperor be brought back to life then? The golden throne has prevented his soul from departing per the fluff:
"the Golden Throne's life support systems will eventually malfunction and the Emperor of Mankind will die, surrendering His spirit to the Warp and throwing all of Mankind into darkness once more"
Yvraine could simply resurrect him as the remains of the Emperor were removed from the throne. These are the kind of silly plot holes GW is creating by attempting to rush the setting.
Take the primaris marines for example. So Fabius Bile has spent the last 10,000 years attempting to create superior space marines. It should have been him who came up with the means of creating advanced space marines that invaded and overwhelmed Cadia during Abaddon's crusade. Then in reaction to said threat Guilliman needing an immediate answer to said threat, should have had Cawl create Thunder Warriors specifically to deal with the new chaos marines.
Infinitely better than the cannon lore. Grimdark & still keeps the IoM in a technological regression era. GW needs to slow down, lest they bring back Sanguinius and ruin one of the greatest characters that ever existed in 40K.
Sanguinius is very very dead. There has been a bunch of stuff about a BA prothecy. A hero that'll defend the Emperor in humanities darkest hour, wearing golden armour. Of course people are going to think of Sanguinius for this because come on, when you think "blood angels" and "gold" Sanguinius will be the first thing you think of. No other character could possibly fit the description.
BrianDavion wrote: Far as we know Yrvine's pwoers are pretty limited. it looks like Yrvvine can only interact with souls AS THEY DEPART. in other words the person's got to literally be dying at the time they're ressurected. also given Gulliman HAS to wear the armor, chances are Yrvvine cannot heal the PHYSICAL damage. (thats what Cawl and the armor was for. Yrvvine, simply "repaired the damage to his soul")
Couldn't the Emperor be brought back to life then? The golden throne has prevented his soul from departing per the fluff:
"the Golden Throne's life support systems will eventually malfunction and the Emperor of Mankind will die, surrendering His spirit to the Warp and throwing all of Mankind into darkness once more".
Isn't emp's problem a largely physical one in the first place? Unless the eldar are going to volunteer their new god to work as his new life support chair I don't see that working out in the long run.
Lobukia wrote: Wait?! What?! Seriously. Have you guys just never read any Blood Angel codex ever? Ignored the Swallow books completely?! Do you really come to a lore conversation knowing absolutely nothing of the actual lore you're taking about. Because in 2005 we got beat you over your head, can't miss it if you're literate, short of a neon sign, foreshadowing of "Horus might go bad" level obvious warnings that Sanguinius wasn't staying dead. If you missed this TWELVE YEAR HINT DROPPED EVEYWHERE, often, posted on walls, mentioned consistently in multiple unit summaries, chapter materials, codices, short stories, and the actual name of a unit... you forfeit the right to converse about fluff in a fluff rich game.
I mean they flat out told you he was coming back. If this caught you off guard, go watch Scooby Doo episodes, I bet the end will shock you every time.
Let me make the same call everyone could make 12 years and 4 editions ago... Sanguinius is coming back or at least Azkaellon will be reformed as Sanguinius reborn. The retcon will be if he doesn't
The Saguinor would just get stronger or something. They did 2-3 retcons already to give Sanguinius his noble sacrifice death; he's dead. He's possibly as dead as Ferrus if not slightly more dead.
Not every single damn primarch needs to return. Also if that post was trying to be funny it came across more as donkey-cave.
For me both Horus and Sanguinius need to stay dead. Abaddon is the successor of Horus and so either Dante or the Sanguinior needs to be the successor, but not the avatar or reincarnation of Sanguinius. Sanguinius' death is one of the most important moments in history. The image of the Angel, the most revered, loyal, selfless and perfect being, going willingly to his death, lying broken and bloodied by his closest friend and brother, is one that needs to stay. He is the Archangel Michael lying dead at the hand of Lucifer. He is Luke Skywalker getting electrocuted by Palpatine, making Vader realise he is still good. He is Qui-Gon Jinn, lying dead, that forces Obi-Wan to realise he must kill Darth Maul.
Deadshot wrote: For me both Horus and Sanguinius need to stay dead. Abaddon is the successor of Horus and so either Dante or the Sanguinior needs to be the successor, but not the avatar or reincarnation of Sanguinius. Sanguinius' death is one of the most important moments in history. The image of the Angel, the most revered, loyal, selfless and perfect being, going willingly to his death, lying broken and bloodied by his closest friend and brother, is one that needs to stay. He is the Archangel Michael lying dead at the hand of Lucifer. He is Luke Skywalker getting electrocuted by Palpatine, making Vader realise he is still good. He is Qui-Gon Jinn, lying dead, that forces Obi-Wan to realise he must kill Darth Maul.
For 40k to live, Sanguinius must remain dead.
That reminds me, which book was it they had the Horus clones in? I've been meaning to track it down and read it.
As much as I've been agitating(as frankly he's one of the more likable primarchs) I find it remarkably unlikely that he'll come back right if he comes back at all. I'd say it's more likely that he would be the one to turn as it's unexpected and the level of perversion to it seems like it would appeal to chaos. The same setup that makes it perfect for him to show up and save the day also leaves the blood angels alone in the dark to potentially make some horrible choices. Best argument I have against that is they're more or less going to be classy world eaters at that point and I may well cry if blood angels got a release to be the khorne army while I'm hedging my bets on the existing guys getting a release in the next few years.
If he comes back normal, yeah, it'll be lame. But a twisted revenant of one of the most angelic of the primarchs itself is a compelling idea. Even big boy blue has been smacked around in his coming back, I doubt anyone else is going to get it easier. I think it could be done without breaking the setting or re-writing the heresy.
Deadshot wrote: For me both Horus and Sanguinius need to stay dead. Abaddon is the successor of Horus and so either Dante or the Sanguinior needs to be the successor, but not the avatar or reincarnation of Sanguinius. Sanguinius' death is one of the most important moments in history. The image of the Angel, the most revered, loyal, selfless and perfect being, going willingly to his death, lying broken and bloodied by his closest friend and brother, is one that needs to stay. He is the Archangel Michael lying dead at the hand of Lucifer. He is Luke Skywalker getting electrocuted by Palpatine, making Vader realise he is still good. He is Qui-Gon Jinn, lying dead, that forces Obi-Wan to realise he must kill Darth Maul.
For 40k to live, Sanguinius must remain dead.
That reminds me, which book was it they had the Horus clones in? I've been meaning to track it down and read it.
I'm not sure what book that would be but Abaddon's Lexicanum should tell you.
And before anyone quotes that as evidence Horus could return through cloning so why not anyone else... we knew from the beginning of the book that those clones would be destroyed as none exist in 40k. Its clear through that GW didn't want him to return and he absolutely shouldnt for the reason stipulated above. For the same reason, Sanguinious should not return. Even though Guilliman is the poster-child, Horus and Sanguinius are the pinnacle Primarchs of their respective sides. The closest brothers, Lucifer vs Michael, Anakin vs Obi-Wan, T1000 vs T-800, Evil Daemon Lord vs loyal angel of God.
I think people are forgetting a very important caveat regarding Sanguinius, the Blood Angels, and the gene curse of the Black Rage.
The entire reason for the black rage was the horrific death of Sanguinius at the hands of his brother and closest friend, Horus. This act of savagery on Horus's part was so traumatic, both physically and psychically, it left a wound in Sanguinius's very genes.
That's why, when they harvested Sanguinius's blood and geneseed to rebuild the chapter, they inadvertently created, or enhanced, the Black Rage and created the flaw that we see today in the Blood Angels.
If Sanguinius was revived, do you not think that he, too, would suffer the effects of the Black Rage along with his Sons? He's the very source of it in the Blood Angels, there's no way he would be unaffected. He revives, and has to fight as hard, or harder, to keep the rage at bay. Perhaps learning from Mephiston, and to a lesser extent, Dante, how they have beaten and resisted the rage, respectively.
Can you imagine what kind of damage Sanguinius could do if he fell to the Black Rage? Death Company Sanguinius. There's a pants-gakkingly horrifying concept if I ever heard one.
Just saying, there are lots of options and plot advancement you can get out of the resurrection of Sanguinius. It isn't likely, even I admit that, but it is possible and more than that, it's plausible, and that's what matters.
I think the Lion is up next anyway, confirmed to be alive, and likely to be very angry at the state of things. They can have him take the dark angels and a flotilla to try and relieve the besieged forces of the dark imperium. Setting up a later two imperium style eastern and western roman empire analogy. Because why split something in half if you don't plan on having the two parts fight.
Grimgold wrote: I think the Lion is up next anyway, confirmed to be alive, and likely to be very angry at the state of things. They can have him take the dark angels and a flotilla to try and relieve the besieged forces of the dark imperium. Setting up a later two imperium style eastern and western roman empire analogy. Because why split something in half if you don't plan on having the two parts fight.
But that would make for two traitor Primarchs in a row?
Grimgold wrote: I think the Lion is up next anyway, confirmed to be alive, and likely to be very angry at the state of things. They can have him take the dark angels and a flotilla to try and relieve the besieged forces of the dark imperium. Setting up a later two imperium style eastern and western roman empire analogy. Because why split something in half if you don't plan on having the two parts fight.
I sincerely hope they do end up fighting, it would be a lot of fun.
Red__Thirst wrote: I think people are forgetting a very important caveat regarding Sanguinius, the Blood Angels, and the gene curse of the Black Rage.
The entire reason for the black rage was the horrific death of Sanguinius at the hands of his brother and closest friend, Horus. This act of savagery on Horus's part was so traumatic, both physically and psychically, it left a wound in Sanguinius's very genes.
That's why, when they harvested Sanguinius's blood and geneseed to rebuild the chapter, they inadvertently created, or enhanced, the Black Rage and created the flaw that we see today in the Blood Angels.
If Sanguinius was revived, do you not think that he, too, would suffer the effects of the Black Rage along with his Sons? He's the very source of it in the Blood Angels, there's no way he would be unaffected. He revives, and has to fight as hard, or harder, to keep the rage at bay. Perhaps learning from Mephiston, and to a lesser extent, Dante, how they have beaten and resisted the rage, respectively.
Can you imagine what kind of damage Sanguinius could do if he fell to the Black Rage? Death Company Sanguinius. There's a pants-gakkingly horrifying concept if I ever heard one.
Just saying, there are lots of options and plot advancement you can get out of the resurrection of Sanguinius. It isn't likely, even I admit that, but it is possible and more than that, it's plausible, and that's what matters.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
The only way i see it as somehow possible to avoid the *empowered black rage* (personal theory here) it's merging Mephiston (the only one able to fully control it so far) with Sanguinius soul (The Sanguinor?) wich may be an explanation of The Sanguinor as Sanguinius soul made manifest by the collective belief/power of the Blood Angels due their shared memories from Sanguinius gene pool.
P.S: While i havea soft spot for Sanguinius and the prospect of a more Warlike/Angel vampire model ( Legacy of Kain fan too i think the most safe and probable event it's him remaining dead.
Nah. All the Sisters of Battle will sacrifice themselves to resurrect Sanguinius. Once the last Sister is dead, Sanguinius will rise again, piloting a flying Imperial Knight armed with hundreds of multi-lasers.
Coming soon. Co-authored by CS Goto and Mat Ward.
Nah the sisters will sacrifice them selves and the very last one will be possessed by sanguinius and sprout actual wings.
"Oh no! Sanguinius is dead!"
"You think you're an expert on dead or something?"
"Horus plunged his Chaos Talon straight into his chest and ripped his heart out!"
"And you think that would kill Sanguinius?"
"..."
"Hah! Turns out he is only... mostly dead."
"What?"
"Mostly dead is what happens before you are all dead. See the difference?"
"Um, no. No I don't see the difference between dead and dead."
"I said mostly dead. You can't see the difference because you are not an expert."
"He's dead!"
"Mostly dead. Witch! Bring me mah bellows!"
"I'm no witch! I'm your wife!"
"Oh, so you're an expert in matrimony now? If you were, you would make me a nice Mutton Sandwich! Now, GET MAH BELLOWS WITCH!"
"You're my husband and I'm your wife! Not your slave!"
She fetches him the bellows after a short, but mostly deadly staring contest that promises mostly bad things later.
"Now, let's see what your mostly dead Primarch here has to say for himself."
"He's dead! He won't say anything!"
"Wow, you give up on your Primarch that easily, eh? Remind me to never be mostly dead around you."
He inserts the bellows into Sanguinius blue, cold lips, and fills his deflated lungs with air.
"Now, Sanguinius, why should I bring you back from mostly dead?"
"This is absurd! You can't just inflate a dead man's lungs and expect him to talk!"
"Mostly dead, and this is Sanguinius, a Primarch. He is no mere man."
"Whatever! This is blasphemy! Have you no respect for the dead?"
"For the last time, mostly dead. Come on Sangy, what do you have to say for yourself?"
The old man presses down on Sanguinius chest, and at first, a wheezing noise is heard, but then...
"Too Blaafe"
"By the Emperor! He spoke! He's still alive!"
"What are you, special or something? Has the Mechanicum taken a few too many parts of your cognitive functions away? No, he is mostly dead."
"But he spoke! He said...True Love!!"
"No he didn't."
"Yes he did! You pushed down on his chest and he said True Love!"
"No, he said Too Blaafe, and anyone that has ever played poker on Baal knows that blaafing is a form of bluffing in cards. Sangy here lost a bet. Probably with that cheat Guiliman. Never trust a warrior-politician playing Baal Poker!"
"Are you daft?!?! This is the Primarch of the Blood Angels! Proginator of the Ninth Legion! Protector of Terra! He alone stood at the Gates and defeated that vial, otherworldly thing Deamon! He doesn't play Baal Poker!"
'Whatever. He lost a bet, and to get out of it, he is playing mostly dead. Sangy doesn't want to pay out."
"That's absurd! He said True Love! He is alive!"
"Nah, he's mostly dead. We need to take care of this right now or he's gonna start stinking up the place! We need to throw him in the refer until he decides to be un-mostly dead"
"AHHHH! I'M HAVING A PSYCHIC VISION OF HIS DEATH! I'M FILLED WITH BLACK RAGE!"
"Damn. He's already starting to stink! Witch! Help me throw him in the refer now!"
"I'm not a witch! I'm your wife!"
"Quiet Witch! If we don't throw him in the refer now, we're gonna have all kinds of Black Rage up in this house, and I know you ain't gonna clean it up. And when we're done here, make me a Mutton Sandwich!"
"Hah! I'll help you throw 'em in the freezer, but it's gonna be a cold day on Terra before I make you a Mutton Sandwich, husband!"
"Yeah, I know. It'll take a miracle."
"AHHHHHHH! THE BLACK RAGE!!!!"
They throw the mostly dead Sanguinius into the refrigerator.
Reiterating that the Black Rage is a Blood Angel experiencing Sanguinius' death in the modern day, either through witnessing or perceiving that they are Sanguinius. They either witness or experience first hand his death.
Grimgold wrote: I think the Lion is up next anyway, confirmed to be alive, and likely to be very angry at the state of things. They can have him take the dark angels and a flotilla to try and relieve the besieged forces of the dark imperium. Setting up a later two imperium style eastern and western roman empire analogy. Because why split something in half if you don't plan on having the two parts fight.
Hastings has stated next primarchesh to be(in no specific order) Mortarion, Angron and Russ.
Grimgold wrote: I think the Lion is up next anyway, confirmed to be alive, and likely to be very angry at the state of things. They can have him take the dark angels and a flotilla to try and relieve the besieged forces of the dark imperium. Setting up a later two imperium style eastern and western roman empire analogy. Because why split something in half if you don't plan on having the two parts fight.
Hastings has stated next primarchesh to be(in no specific order) Mortarion, Angron and Russ.
yup, so if I was gonna extraplote on that. those are the releases for this year.
my guess is Mortarian, Russ, Angron (and a new world eaters faction) (likely our late fall/christmas major release), with The Lion being the first new Primarch of the new year followed by Fulgrim and a emperor's children release. and then we'll see if the dead stay dead.
Maybe the guy Horus killed was only a clone, while in all actuality the real San is actually Fulgrim, and he has prepared an army of brain washed emperors children who think they are blood angels.
Seriously though I'd love for him to come back so he could die again.
Obviously the reason Mephiston survived the Black Rage is that Sanguinius' shattered psyche has finished ten thousand years of coalescing back together and has taken root in his mind. He's S/T5 because Sanguinius is slowly transforming him into a more appropriate vessel before revealing himself.
(Disclaimer: This post is "but it fits the facts!"-level unwarranted speculation and has only a tangential relationship to canon.)
Not every chapter/legion needs to have their Primarch back. I agree with those who believe resurrecting characters like Sanguinius cheapens the whole setting. I comes off very superhero comic bookish.
"Oh, no! Superman/Batman/Sanguinius totally died! How will we ever carry on? Oh, wait. Apparently, it just appeared they were dead or we used a Dragonball wish to bring them back."
Deadshot wrote: Reiterating that the Black Rage is a Blood Angel experiencing Sanguinius' death in the modern day, either through witnessing or perceiving that they are Sanguinius. They either witness or experience first hand his death.
It honestly might confirm that his soul really is stuck in the warp and there for rencarnateable.
no one else has these psychic feed back as far as i know. not even psykers.
Deadshot wrote: Reiterating that the Black Rage is a Blood Angel experiencing Sanguinius' death in the modern day, either through witnessing or perceiving that they are Sanguinius. They either witness or experience first hand his death.
It honestly might confirm that his soul really is stuck in the warp and there for rencarnateable.
no one else has these psychic feed back as far as i know. not even psykers.
No one else was torn apart by their closest friend and brother who was also simulataneously possessed by the four of the 5 most powerful beings in the history of the universe, while simulataneously knowing his death was coming, and also being genetically connected to his sons.
I mean, its not unprecendented. On Signus Prime, when Ka'Bandha killed 500 Blood Angels in a single stroke, the psychic backlash of their deaths put Sanguinius in a coma. This is just the same thing but in the opposite direction, and given the violent and tragic nature of his death, and that fact he was their originator, the effect is amplified.
Death Company Sanguinius. There's a pants-gakkingly horrifying concept if I ever heard one.
Much as I would prefer him not to come back, wouldn't this be the most Grimdark think ever?
The Angel of Perfection returning as a gibbering wreck of a man who the Blood Angels can only look on with sorrow and disgust. He would be the mirror of Robute to lead the mirror Imperium, Sanguinus the Mad King as opposed to Roboute the acolyte of logic . His form just as flawless as always but his mind completely destroyed, perhaps they even lock him up like The Man in the Iron Mask and feed him blood through the mouth slit!
Death Company Sanguinius. There's a pants-gakkingly horrifying concept if I ever heard one.
Much as I would prefer him not to come back, wouldn't this be the most Grimdark think ever?
The Angel of Perfection returning as a gibbering wreck of a man who the Blood Angels can only look on with sorrow and disgust. He would be the mirror of Robute to lead the mirror Imperium, Sanguinus the Mad King as opposed to Roboute the acolyte of logic .
His form just as flawless as always but his mind completely destroyed, perhaps they even lock him up like The Man in the Iron Mask and feed him blood through the mouth slit!
If Sanguinius did return this would be the only method I would be content with. I see in my mind's eye, Sanguinius, with golden hair and darkened wings, wearing armour of red and black, darkness and bloodlust filling his eyes, blood dripping from his hands and mouth, a twisted and broken version of the Angel he used to be.
Similarly I'd like to see Leman Russ come back but only as a Wulfen version. Degenerated, feral and bestial, attacking anyone on site, the only fragment of who he once was being that he hunts Magnus and the Thousand Sons across the star. (Think Black Flash from the CW's Arrowverse)
Lobukia wrote: Wait?! What?! Seriously. Have you guys just never read any Blood Angel codex ever? Ignored the Swallow books completely?! Do you really come to a lore conversation knowing absolutely nothing of the actual lore you're taking about. Because in 2005 we got beat you over your head, can't miss it if you're literate, short of a neon sign, foreshadowing of "Horus might go bad" level obvious warnings that Sanguinius wasn't staying dead. If you missed this TWELVE YEAR HINT DROPPED EVEYWHERE, often, posted on walls, mentioned consistently in multiple unit summaries, chapter materials, codices, short stories, and the actual name of a unit... you forfeit the right to converse about fluff in a fluff rich game.
I mean they flat out told you he was coming back. If this caught you off guard, go watch Scooby Doo episodes, I bet the end will shock you every time.
Let me make the same call everyone could make 12 years and 4 editions ago... Sanguinius is coming back or at least Azkaellon will be reformed as Sanguinius reborn. The retcon will be if he doesn't
No. 40k used to be setting for you to make up your own stories. Those were just plot hooks for players to use if they wanted.
It's only now that current GW mixed terms setting and story and decided ignore what 40k was to make a cash grab.
moving the story forward isn't going to have much impact on "your dudes" unless your army is Ultramarines, Blood Angels, or another cannon chapter/army you're not going to be impacted by things much if at all.
My "Emperor's Pink Marines" chapter fighting in my local gaming scene in the "local club sector" isn't going to be that impacted by Cadia falling. the space wolves losing their home etc. the 40k setting is so LARGE GW can do story stuff, with LOTS of room in the margins and cracks for us to fill in with our imagination.
I used to play Battletech, I stopped actively playing it because of the speed of the setting changes, the differance is that the setting consists of basicly 2000 worlds, and the writers in their "wisdom" decided to nuke the Mercenary recruiting world.
the changes to 40k? sure they're big but for most of us they're also pretty much ignorable.
I'm personally rather hyped for the story possibilities involving the dark side of the imperium. A Wild West of chaos and danger appeals to my love of Siri westerns.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure Sanguinius is dead.
I love me some BAngels, but I really don't think one of the deadest Primarchs can come back. His death is a strong, story driven thing in the setting. Reviving him would feel pretty weak and make his sacrifice quite pointless.
There are also plenty of other Primarchs who are are missing rather than dead, who'll most likely be the ones who'll return if they want to bring any more back.
I think this whole setup of the BAngels being "doomed" is to allow for them to be upgraded to Primaris marines, including Dante getting an epic new figure in the new swishbang armour.
Tiberius501 wrote: Yeah, I'm pretty sure Sanguinius is dead.
I love me some BAngels, but I really don't think one of the deadest Primarchs can come back. His death is a strong, story driven thing in the setting. Reviving him would feel pretty weak and make his sacrifice quite pointless.
There are also plenty of other Primarchs who are are missing rather than dead, who'll most likely be the ones who'll return if they want to bring any more back.
I think this whole setup of the BAngels being "doomed" is to allow for them to be upgraded to Primaris marines, including Dante getting an epic new figure in the new swishbang armour.
Just my opinion though.
I respectfully disagree.
Sanginius's sacrifice isn't cheapened by his (possible) return, at all. At least not in my mind.
Bear in mind, Sanguinius went in to face Horus alone, knowing that it would likely cost him his life. Here's the thing, though.
Horus and Sanguinius were best friends, as well as brother primarchs. They respected each other, deeply, and more than that, they loved each other as brothers, as surely as any two blood brothers would. Sanguinius was able to get along with all of his brothers to some extent or another, but there was a closeness with Horus that is very evident in the Horus Heresy books.
Sanguinius was gifted with prophetic sight. He could see the various ways that he would likely die if he faced Horus alone on the Vengeful Spirit's bridge. Still, what if he saw more than just his death? What if he saw, at least, even one strand of possibility that he might be able to save Horus, to bring his brother and best friend back from damnation and save his life. He took that one, all but impossible chance. He saw that among thousands, maybe even hundreds of thousands of possible outcomes, maybe one chance to save his brother existed.
For Sanguinius, that was enough. He faced his brother, intent on saving Horus, or he would die trying. To see with his own eyes if his brother Horus could be saved and, if possible, Sanguinius would face and save him. That's why the gene curse is so strong in the Children of the Angel born after his death. The pain of failing Horus, and the Emperor, of being unable to save him mixed with the rage of his brother betraying and killing him. Sanguinius's last moment, his last thought was likely one of anger, and pain, both at Horus for turning his back on their friendship and bond, and at himself for failing to save Horus, and beating the odds. That rage, the pain, and anguish was imprinted into his very genes, and his progeny have paid the price for 10 millennia. That's why Sanguinius is my favorite primarch. He laid down his life for someone he cared about. His brother. His friend. Even in the face of such overwhelming odds against achieving it, he still reached for that 1% chance to save Horus, knowing what waited for him was death, or worse, if he failed.
Sanguinius returning would cheapen the setting no more than Guilliman being resurrected has. It would only add more to the story, and give another character to face the coming storm of events.
I would say that guilliman being resurrected has cheapened the setting, though. Its gone from the age of the imperium to the age of the second great crusade. That's a major shift in underlying premise.
As for sanguinius returning, i think you'll get your wish.
Tiberius501 wrote: Yeah, I'm pretty sure Sanguinius is dead.
I love me some BAngels, but I really don't think one of the deadest Primarchs can come back. His death is a strong, story driven thing in the setting. Reviving him would feel pretty weak and make his sacrifice quite pointless.
There are also plenty of other Primarchs who are are missing rather than dead, who'll most likely be the ones who'll return if they want to bring any more back.
I think this whole setup of the BAngels being "doomed" is to allow for them to be upgraded to Primaris marines, including Dante getting an epic new figure in the new swishbang armour.
Just my opinion though.
I respectfully disagree.
Sanginius's sacrifice isn't cheapened by his (possible) return, at all. At least not in my mind.
Bear in mind, Sanguinius went in to face Horus alone, knowing that it would likely cost him his life. Here's the thing, though.
Horus and Sanguinius were best friends, as well as brother primarchs. They respected each other, deeply, and more than that, they loved each other as brothers, as surely as any two blood brothers would. Sanguinius was able to get along with all of his brothers to some extent or another, but there was a closeness with Horus that is very evident in the Horus Heresy books.
Sanguinius was gifted with prophetic sight. He could see the various ways that he would likely die if he faced Horus alone on the Vengeful Spirit's bridge. Still, what if he saw more than just his death? What if he saw, at least, even one strand of possibility that he might be able to save Horus, to bring his brother and best friend back from damnation and save his life. He took that one, all but impossible chance. He saw that among thousands, maybe even hundreds of thousands of possible outcomes, maybe one chance to save his brother existed.
For Sanguinius, that was enough. He faced his brother, intent on saving Horus, or he would die trying. To see with his own eyes if his brother Horus could be saved and, if possible, Sanguinius would face and save him. That's why the gene curse is so strong in the Children of the Angel born after his death. The pain of failing Horus, and the Emperor, of being unable to save him mixed with the rage of his brother betraying and killing him. Sanguinius's last moment, his last thought was likely one of anger, and pain, both at Horus for turning his back on their friendship and bond, and at himself for failing to save Horus, and beating the odds. That rage, the pain, and anguish was imprinted into his very genes, and his progeny have paid the price for 10 millennia. That's why Sanguinius is my favorite primarch. He laid down his life for someone he cared about. His brother. His friend. Even in the face of such overwhelming odds against achieving it, he still reached for that 1% chance to save Horus, knowing what waited for him was death, or worse, if he failed.
Sanguinius returning would cheapen the setting no more than Guilliman being resurrected has. It would only add more to the story, and give another character to face the coming storm of events.
That's just my opinion on that. Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
But that's what I mean, his death means so much in the fluff, including the stepping stone for the Emperor going all out and killing Horus, and to cursing his children now. His failure literally costed everything he held dear. It just feels a little odd to be like, "aaaand he's not actually dead folks!"
It'd be like bringing Ned Stark back in GoT after his death meant so much to the Stark children and essentially driving the rest of the story. Bringing him back would cheapen his death, just the same as I believe bringing Sanguinius back would cheapen his.
Again, just my thoughts on it.
That's just it, he is dead. I'm not advocating he doesn't/didn't die. I'd be miffed if they retconned it so Sanguinius doesn't die as well. Not enough to flip the table per-se, but it would irk me.
It's him returning from the dead and dealing with all the fallout that his death caused. Grappling, as Guilliman has, with the reality of the universe while he was dead, and coming to terms with not only how his death effected his son's, but the universe as a whole, and in addition to that, finding a way to hold back the black rage in himself.
I find this concept immensely interesting, especially with Sanguinius being the de-facto leader of the Dark Imperium. Severed from his brother Guilliman and the rest of the Imperium, he has to wrestle with darkness all around him, as well as inside himself. This would test his resolve, and his nobility, even more than his fight with Horus did.
The difference between Ned Stark in GoT, and Sanguinius in 40k, is that Sanguinius's death has echoed through the story, specifically the Blood Angels, for millennia, but it hasn't driven them to meet ends like the Starks in GoT. It's simply a part of history in the 40k universe. It's a past event, so far removed that it's become the stuff of legend and rumor more than proper history. Everyone respects Sanguinius, everyone reveres him, but that reverence and respect would not diminish with his return. If nothing else it would be like a beacon of hope to many, especially those trapped in the Dark Imperium.
I'm not going to speculate on what GW will do or how the story is going to progress from here. I only know what I've read in stories of 40k and based on what I'm seeing, and the foreshadowing that has taken place over the last several months, the tea leaves seem to be trending toward this direction. Not that they'll wind up here, but the possibility exists, I think.
I totally get where you're coming from Tiberius, and respect your position completely. You may very well be right also.
We'll see, in time, I suppose.
Take it easy, and good discussion also may I say in closing.
Torga_DW wrote: I think the best (most humourous?) way to bring him back is just to bring him back and not talk about it. Sorta like one of those old x-files episodes where mulder dies at the end of one episode (or is about to get an arm cut off or something) and then the next episode he's all well and good and they *just* *don't* *talk* *about* *it*.
Yes, I would love to take it a step further than that and say that Sanguinius was just there the entire time and was the only primarch that never died or went missing, and yet all of the terrible things that led to the 41st millenium still happened, and every time anyone brings it up Sanguinius and his proponents just dodge the question, until finally, years after this change is made to the setting, it's revealed that Sanguinius is Alpharius. And I'm not talking an impersonation. I mean they were both the same person the entire time.
Draco wrote: Maybe Sanguinius comes back but a demon like Saint Celestine?
Thinking about it, who'd be a better rep of the god emperor who's gone to the warp than the son who died for him. Greater demon of the emperor ascendant or some such? Who knew there was so much you could do with a ten thousand year old corpse.
from a fluff perspective I would be annoyed as it would trivialize a pivotal moment in he books and suddenly death is not death it is just not being there right now until ynarri decides to bring you back (except hours, hard to make destroyed mind body and soul better)
from a game board perspective I am not looking forward to having to face a primarch in every single battle against any space marines chapter. forging the narrative... on a backwater world of little importance a beacon has awoken emitting a strange signal heard across several systems around it, upon hearing of it The elder dispatched a aspect host to investigate, the tau sent exploratory force, the necrons nearby awoken from their tombworld have sent a nightlord and some warriors...the imperium has dispatched a small group of imperial guard supported by a few squads of space marines... plus a primarch
Sanguinius coming back should be pretty apparent to everyone.
In a setting with souls and magic being dead is hardly the stopper in the bottle.
As one of the most iconic Primarchs, Sangunius isn't going to be staying gone. How he will come back is a bigger question. Will he come back as a ghost or daemon type being? Have a bodily resurrection? As a liquid avatar of pure blood?
Draco wrote: Maybe Sanguinius comes back but a demon like Saint Celestine?
Thinking about it, who'd be a better rep of the god emperor who's gone to the warp than the son who died for him. Greater demon of the emperor ascendant or some such? Who knew there was so much you could do with a ten thousand year old corpse.
thats an intreasting point, I mean, with all the Angelic icongraphy etc surrounding Sanguinis, would it REALLY be that much of a stretch for him to become "Space Jesus"?
Red__Thirst wrote: I think people are forgetting a very important caveat regarding Sanguinius, the Blood Angels, and the gene curse of the Black Rage.
The entire reason for the black rage was the horrific death of Sanguinius at the hands of his brother and closest friend, Horus. This act of savagery on Horus's part was so traumatic, both physically and psychically, it left a wound in Sanguinius's very genes.
That's why, when they harvested Sanguinius's blood and geneseed to rebuild the chapter, they inadvertently created, or enhanced, the Black Rage and created the flaw that we see today in the Blood Angels.
If Sanguinius was revived, do you not think that he, too, would suffer the effects of the Black Rage along with his Sons? He's the very source of it in the Blood Angels, there's no way he would be unaffected. He revives, and has to fight as hard, or harder, to keep the rage at bay. Perhaps learning from Mephiston, and to a lesser extent, Dante, how they have beaten and resisted the rage, respectively.
Can you imagine what kind of damage Sanguinius could do if he fell to the Black Rage? Death Company Sanguinius. There's a pants-gakkingly horrifying concept if I ever heard one.
Just saying, there are lots of options and plot advancement you can get out of the resurrection of Sanguinius. It isn't likely, even I admit that, but it is possible and more than that, it's plausible, and that's what matters.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
He always had it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Unless I'm thinking about the Red Thirst.
That's correct. Sanguinius had some kind of fury/rage/anger issues that made him the target of Khorne on at least one occasion during the 30k/preheresy era.
Nerak wrote: Sanguinius is very very dead. There has been a bunch of stuff about a BA prothecy. A hero that'll defend the Emperor in humanities darkest hour, wearing golden armour. Of course people are going to think of Sanguinius for this because come on, when you think "blood angels" and "gold" Sanguinius will be the first thing you think of. No other character could possibly fit the description.
Gabriel Angelos will steal Sanguinius' armor and be that hero. If needbe, he'll steal Primarch powers from Guilliman.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arbitrator wrote: It'll depend on how well Blood Angels sell in 8th I imagine.
If everybody but Kurze comes back (pretty sure he's deader than Ferrus) I'd not be surprisd.
On one hand, I agree. Having Sanguinius return would be a major cheapening of the drama of the Heresy and the tragedy of the Blood Angels in general.
But then, with Guilliman back, the Rubicon of cheapening the drama of the Heresy has already been crossed.
I could also see this being a really cool idea: Sanguinius literally fighting his way back out of death, using the blood of his sons as a method of progressive reincarnation: little pieces of his soul coalescing over ten thousand years and ten million different lives. Omega Sanction Batman-style.
Formerly Wu wrote: On one hand, I agree. Having Sanguinius return would be a major cheapening of the drama of the Heresy and the tragedy of the Blood Angels in general.
But then, with Guilliman back, the Rubicon of cheapening the drama of the Heresy has already been crossed.
Yeah. I mean, when you see a fire, why build a brick wall around it when you could just throw kerosene on it instead?
There's a big difference between Guilliman and Sanguinius coming back. The significance of sanguinius' death has already been mentioned. Guilliman survived the horus heresy and dealt with the aftermath. He split the space marines into chapters learning from the heresy. He wrote a book on how he thought the marines should conduct themselves, and he lead the Imperium as Lord Commander. Then some prick stabbed him with a magic sword and he fell asleep for ten thousand years. Maybe I'm missing some that gets developed in the hh series but I've never seen any pathos in that 'death'. It's just a loose end to tie up. Probably because way back then when the first version of the story was written it was felt that having a superpowered demi-god running around on the tabletop was a bad idea
Point_blank wrote: Probably because way back then when the first version of the story was written it was felt that having a superpowered demi-god running around on the tabletop was a bad idea
Here's the thing, though, I don't think that that's changed. There's even less reason to do it with the 30K game to explore those characters/that time setting. 40K should be truly grimdark where bright and beautiful beings like the Primarchs are merely the subject of myth and legend.
i think the most safe and probable event it's him remaining dead.
