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 Lobukia wrote:
Wait?! What?! Seriously. Have you guys just never read any Blood Angel codex ever? Ignored the Swallow books completely?! Do you really come to a lore conversation knowing absolutely nothing of the actual lore you're taking about. Because in 2005 we got beat you over your head, can't miss it if you're literate, short of a neon sign, foreshadowing of "Horus might go bad" level obvious warnings that Sanguinius wasn't staying dead. If you missed this TWELVE YEAR HINT DROPPED EVEYWHERE, often, posted on walls, mentioned consistently in multiple unit summaries, chapter materials, codices, short stories, and the actual name of a unit... you forfeit the right to converse about fluff in a fluff rich game.

I mean they flat out told you he was coming back. If this caught you off guard, go watch Scooby Doo episodes, I bet the end will shock you every time.

Let me make the same call everyone could make 12 years and 4 editions ago... Sanguinius is coming back or at least Azkaellon will be reformed as Sanguinius reborn. The retcon will be if he doesn't

The Saguinor would just get stronger or something. They did 2-3 retcons already to give Sanguinius his noble sacrifice death; he's dead. He's possibly as dead as Ferrus if not slightly more dead.

Not every single damn primarch needs to return. Also if that post was trying to be funny it came across more as donkey-cave.

For me both Horus and Sanguinius need to stay dead. Abaddon is the successor of Horus and so either Dante or the Sanguinior needs to be the successor, but not the avatar or reincarnation of Sanguinius. Sanguinius' death is one of the most important moments in history. The image of the Angel, the most revered, loyal, selfless and perfect being, going willingly to his death, lying broken and bloodied by his closest friend and brother, is one that needs to stay. He is the Archangel Michael lying dead at the hand of Lucifer. He is Luke Skywalker getting electrocuted by Palpatine, making Vader realise he is still good. He is Qui-Gon Jinn, lying dead, that forces Obi-Wan to realise he must kill Darth Maul.

For 40k to live, Sanguinius must remain dead.

I'm down for homey Sangy and his big white wings making a come back, as long as you don't call it a comeback.

 Deadshot wrote:
For me both Horus and Sanguinius need to stay dead. Abaddon is the successor of Horus and so either Dante or the Sanguinior needs to be the successor, but not the avatar or reincarnation of Sanguinius. Sanguinius' death is one of the most important moments in history. The image of the Angel, the most revered, loyal, selfless and perfect being, going willingly to his death, lying broken and bloodied by his closest friend and brother, is one that needs to stay. He is the Archangel Michael lying dead at the hand of Lucifer. He is Luke Skywalker getting electrocuted by Palpatine, making Vader realise he is still good. He is Qui-Gon Jinn, lying dead, that forces Obi-Wan to realise he must kill Darth Maul.

For 40k to live, Sanguinius must remain dead.

That reminds me, which book was it they had the Horus clones in? I've been meaning to track it down and read it.

As much as I've been agitating(as frankly he's one of the more likable primarchs) I find it remarkably unlikely that he'll come back right if he comes back at all. I'd say it's more likely that he would be the one to turn as it's unexpected and the level of perversion to it seems like it would appeal to chaos. The same setup that makes it perfect for him to show up and save the day also leaves the blood angels alone in the dark to potentially make some horrible choices. Best argument I have against that is they're more or less going to be classy world eaters at that point and I may well cry if blood angels got a release to be the khorne army while I'm hedging my bets on the existing guys getting a release in the next few years.

If he comes back normal, yeah, it'll be lame. But a twisted revenant of one of the most angelic of the primarchs itself is a compelling idea. Even big boy blue has been smacked around in his coming back, I doubt anyone else is going to get it easier. I think it could be done without breaking the setting or re-writing the heresy.

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
For me both Horus and Sanguinius need to stay dead. Abaddon is the successor of Horus and so either Dante or the Sanguinior needs to be the successor, but not the avatar or reincarnation of Sanguinius. Sanguinius' death is one of the most important moments in history. The image of the Angel, the most revered, loyal, selfless and perfect being, going willingly to his death, lying broken and bloodied by his closest friend and brother, is one that needs to stay. He is the Archangel Michael lying dead at the hand of Lucifer. He is Luke Skywalker getting electrocuted by Palpatine, making Vader realise he is still good. He is Qui-Gon Jinn, lying dead, that forces Obi-Wan to realise he must kill Darth Maul.

For 40k to live, Sanguinius must remain dead.

That reminds me, which book was it they had the Horus clones in? I've been meaning to track it down and read it.

I'm not sure what book that would be but Abaddon's Lexicanum should tell you.

And before anyone quotes that as evidence Horus could return through cloning so why not anyone else... we knew from the beginning of the book that those clones would be destroyed as none exist in 40k. Its clear through that GW didn't want him to return and he absolutely shouldnt for the reason stipulated above. For the same reason, Sanguinious should not return. Even though Guilliman is the poster-child, Horus and Sanguinius are the pinnacle Primarchs of their respective sides. The closest brothers, Lucifer vs Michael, Anakin vs Obi-Wan, T1000 vs T-800, Evil Daemon Lord vs loyal angel of God.

I think people are forgetting a very important caveat regarding Sanguinius, the Blood Angels, and the gene curse of the Black Rage.

The entire reason for the black rage was the horrific death of Sanguinius at the hands of his brother and closest friend, Horus. This act of savagery on Horus's part was so traumatic, both physically and psychically, it left a wound in Sanguinius's very genes.

That's why, when they harvested Sanguinius's blood and geneseed to rebuild the chapter, they inadvertently created, or enhanced, the Black Rage and created the flaw that we see today in the Blood Angels.

If Sanguinius was revived, do you not think that he, too, would suffer the effects of the Black Rage along with his Sons? He's the very source of it in the Blood Angels, there's no way he would be unaffected. He revives, and has to fight as hard, or harder, to keep the rage at bay. Perhaps learning from Mephiston, and to a lesser extent, Dante, how they have beaten and resisted the rage, respectively.

Can you imagine what kind of damage Sanguinius could do if he fell to the Black Rage? Death Company Sanguinius. There's a pants-gakkingly horrifying concept if I ever heard one.

Just saying, there are lots of options and plot advancement you can get out of the resurrection of Sanguinius. It isn't likely, even I admit that, but it is possible and more than that, it's plausible, and that's what matters.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Sorry BA players, but there are so many better primarchs that can legit come back that Sangy is a poor choice.

You want flying angel prophets? You got Celestine already.

Bring back Jagathai revving up a thunder bike, drag racing Doomrider on the great Warp Rift roadway.

I think the Lion is up next anyway, confirmed to be alive, and likely to be very angry at the state of things. They can have him take the dark angels and a flotilla to try and relieve the besieged forces of the dark imperium. Setting up a later two imperium style eastern and western roman empire analogy. Because why split something in half if you don't plan on having the two parts fight.

I just wish name wasn't a bad joke about a late 19th century poet. Not that Dark Angel isn't a cool poem, but c'mon.

 Grimgold wrote:
I think the Lion is up next anyway, confirmed to be alive, and likely to be very angry at the state of things. They can have him take the dark angels and a flotilla to try and relieve the besieged forces of the dark imperium. Setting up a later two imperium style eastern and western roman empire analogy. Because why split something in half if you don't plan on having the two parts fight.

But that would make for two traitor Primarchs in a row?

 Grimgold wrote:
I think the Lion is up next anyway, confirmed to be alive, and likely to be very angry at the state of things. They can have him take the dark angels and a flotilla to try and relieve the besieged forces of the dark imperium. Setting up a later two imperium style eastern and western roman empire analogy. Because why split something in half if you don't plan on having the two parts fight.

I sincerely hope they do end up fighting, it would be a lot of fun.

 Red__Thirst wrote:
I think people are forgetting a very important caveat regarding Sanguinius, the Blood Angels, and the gene curse of the Black Rage.

The entire reason for the black rage was the horrific death of Sanguinius at the hands of his brother and closest friend, Horus. This act of savagery on Horus's part was so traumatic, both physically and psychically, it left a wound in Sanguinius's very genes.

That's why, when they harvested Sanguinius's blood and geneseed to rebuild the chapter, they inadvertently created, or enhanced, the Black Rage and created the flaw that we see today in the Blood Angels.

If Sanguinius was revived, do you not think that he, too, would suffer the effects of the Black Rage along with his Sons? He's the very source of it in the Blood Angels, there's no way he would be unaffected. He revives, and has to fight as hard, or harder, to keep the rage at bay. Perhaps learning from Mephiston, and to a lesser extent, Dante, how they have beaten and resisted the rage, respectively.

Can you imagine what kind of damage Sanguinius could do if he fell to the Black Rage? Death Company Sanguinius. There's a pants-gakkingly horrifying concept if I ever heard one.

Just saying, there are lots of options and plot advancement you can get out of the resurrection of Sanguinius. It isn't likely, even I admit that, but it is possible and more than that, it's plausible, and that's what matters.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

The only way i see it as somehow possible to avoid the *empowered black rage* (personal theory here) it's merging Mephiston (the only one able to fully control it so far) with Sanguinius soul (The Sanguinor?) wich may be an explanation of The Sanguinor as Sanguinius soul made manifest by the collective belief/power of the Blood Angels due their shared memories from Sanguinius gene pool.


P.S: While i havea soft spot for Sanguinius and the prospect of a more Warlike/Angel vampire model ( Legacy of Kain fan too i think the most safe and probable event it's him remaining dead.

Can we all agree that Black Rage matters though?

Too soon?

 Thud wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Needs moar Sisters.

Nah. All the Sisters of Battle will sacrifice themselves to resurrect Sanguinius. Once the last Sister is dead, Sanguinius will rise again, piloting a flying Imperial Knight armed with hundreds of multi-lasers.

Coming soon. Co-authored by CS Goto and Mat Ward.

Nah the sisters will sacrifice them selves and the very last one will be possessed by sanguinius and sprout actual wings.

there you go female space marines

get ready for the nuclear winter

You know nothing about dead. Read on.

"Oh no! Sanguinius is dead!"
"You think you're an expert on dead or something?"
"Horus plunged his Chaos Talon straight into his chest and ripped his heart out!"
"And you think that would kill Sanguinius?"
"..."
"Hah! Turns out he is only... mostly dead."
"What?"
"Mostly dead is what happens before you are all dead. See the difference?"
"Um, no. No I don't see the difference between dead and dead."
"I said mostly dead. You can't see the difference because you are not an expert."
"He's dead!"
"Mostly dead. Witch! Bring me mah bellows!"
"I'm no witch! I'm your wife!"
"Oh, so you're an expert in matrimony now? If you were, you would make me a nice Mutton Sandwich! Now, GET MAH BELLOWS WITCH!"
"You're my husband and I'm your wife! Not your slave!"

She fetches him the bellows after a short, but mostly deadly staring contest that promises mostly bad things later.

"Now, let's see what your mostly dead Primarch here has to say for himself."
"He's dead! He won't say anything!"
"Wow, you give up on your Primarch that easily, eh? Remind me to never be mostly dead around you."

He inserts the bellows into Sanguinius blue, cold lips, and fills his deflated lungs with air.

"Now, Sanguinius, why should I bring you back from mostly dead?"
"This is absurd! You can't just inflate a dead man's lungs and expect him to talk!"
"Mostly dead, and this is Sanguinius, a Primarch. He is no mere man."
"Whatever! This is blasphemy! Have you no respect for the dead?"
"For the last time, mostly dead. Come on Sangy, what do you have to say for yourself?"

The old man presses down on Sanguinius chest, and at first, a wheezing noise is heard, but then...

"Too Blaafe"
"By the Emperor! He spoke! He's still alive!"
"What are you, special or something? Has the Mechanicum taken a few too many parts of your cognitive functions away? No, he is mostly dead."
"But he spoke! He said...True Love!!"
"No he didn't."
"Yes he did! You pushed down on his chest and he said True Love!"
"No, he said Too Blaafe, and anyone that has ever played poker on Baal knows that blaafing is a form of bluffing in cards. Sangy here lost a bet. Probably with that cheat Guiliman. Never trust a warrior-politician playing Baal Poker!"
"Are you daft?!?! This is the Primarch of the Blood Angels! Proginator of the Ninth Legion! Protector of Terra! He alone stood at the Gates and defeated that vial, otherworldly thing Deamon! He doesn't play Baal Poker!"
'Whatever. He lost a bet, and to get out of it, he is playing mostly dead. Sangy doesn't want to pay out."
"That's absurd! He said True Love! He is alive!"
"Nah, he's mostly dead. We need to take care of this right now or he's gonna start stinking up the place! We need to throw him in the refer until he decides to be un-mostly dead"
"AHHHH! I'M HAVING A PSYCHIC VISION OF HIS DEATH! I'M FILLED WITH BLACK RAGE!"
"Damn. He's already starting to stink! Witch! Help me throw him in the refer now!"
"I'm not a witch! I'm your wife!"
"Quiet Witch! If we don't throw him in the refer now, we're gonna have all kinds of Black Rage up in this house, and I know you ain't gonna clean it up. And when we're done here, make me a Mutton Sandwich!"
"Hah! I'll help you throw 'em in the freezer, but it's gonna be a cold day on Terra before I make you a Mutton Sandwich, husband!"
"Yeah, I know. It'll take a miracle."
"AHHHHHHH! THE BLACK RAGE!!!!"

They throw the mostly dead Sanguinius into the refrigerator.

There is always the possibility he did survive and what we're told the last 10,000 of his death was propaganda to invent a saint.

It is also possible he survived and was interred due to being tainted by chaos in the battle.

It may not be retconned but revealed his death and martyrdom was a lie.

Wow, Tamwulf, give me a spoiler warning next time.

 Skerr wrote:
There is always the possibility he did survive and what we're told the last 10,000 of his death was propaganda to invent a saint.

It is also possible he survived and was interred due to being tainted by chaos in the battle.

It may not be retconned but revealed his death and martyrdom was a lie.

the utter rage from the fanboys over that'd be a pretty major one

BrianDavion wrote:

 Skerr wrote:
There is always the possibility he did survive and what we're told the last 10,000 of his death was propaganda to invent a saint.

It is also possible he survived and was interred due to being tainted by chaos in the battle.

It may not be retconned but revealed his death and martyrdom was a lie.

the utter rage from the fanboys over that'd be a pretty major one

I just told you he has been sitting in the refrigerator for the last 10,000 years.

Reiterating that the Black Rage is a Blood Angel experiencing Sanguinius' death in the modern day, either through witnessing or perceiving that they are Sanguinius. They either witness or experience first hand his death.

 Grimgold wrote:
I think the Lion is up next anyway, confirmed to be alive, and likely to be very angry at the state of things. They can have him take the dark angels and a flotilla to try and relieve the besieged forces of the dark imperium. Setting up a later two imperium style eastern and western roman empire analogy. Because why split something in half if you don't plan on having the two parts fight.

Hastings has stated next primarchesh to be(in no specific order) Mortarion, Angron and Russ.

tneva82 wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
I think the Lion is up next anyway, confirmed to be alive, and likely to be very angry at the state of things. They can have him take the dark angels and a flotilla to try and relieve the besieged forces of the dark imperium. Setting up a later two imperium style eastern and western roman empire analogy. Because why split something in half if you don't plan on having the two parts fight.

Hastings has stated next primarchesh to be(in no specific order) Mortarion, Angron and Russ.

yup, so if I was gonna extraplote on that. those are the releases for this year.

my guess is Mortarian, Russ, Angron (and a new world eaters faction) (likely our late fall/christmas major release), with The Lion being the first new Primarch of the new year followed by Fulgrim and a emperor's children release. and then we'll see if the dead stay dead.

Maybe the guy Horus killed was only a clone, while in all actuality the real San is actually Fulgrim, and he has prepared an army of brain washed emperors children who think they are blood angels.

Seriously though I'd love for him to come back so he could die again.

Obviously the reason Mephiston survived the Black Rage is that Sanguinius' shattered psyche has finished ten thousand years of coalescing back together and has taken root in his mind. He's S/T5 because Sanguinius is slowly transforming him into a more appropriate vessel before revealing himself.

(Disclaimer: This post is "but it fits the facts!"-level unwarranted speculation and has only a tangential relationship to canon.)

Russ releasing in winter would be great. The Lord of winter and war and something like that.

And Sanguinius needs to stay dead. As well as Horus and Ferrus Manus. Or the setting will turn into a saturday-morning-cartoon.

Not every chapter/legion needs to have their Primarch back. I agree with those who believe resurrecting characters like Sanguinius cheapens the whole setting. I comes off very superhero comic bookish.

"Oh, no! Superman/Batman/Sanguinius totally died! How will we ever carry on? Oh, wait. Apparently, it just appeared they were dead or we used a Dragonball wish to bring them back."

Yeah...

 Ankhalagon wrote:
Russ releasing in winter would be great. The Lord of winter and war and something like that.

And Sanguinius needs to stay dead. As well as Horus and Ferrus Manus. Or the setting will turn into a saturday-morning-cartoon.

..."Will turn into"?

The setting became a Saturday morning cartoon in 5th. I've been ignoring 95% of the fluff since.

 Deadshot wrote:
Reiterating that the Black Rage is a Blood Angel experiencing Sanguinius' death in the modern day, either through witnessing or perceiving that they are Sanguinius. They either witness or experience first hand his death.

It honestly might confirm that his soul really is stuck in the warp and there for rencarnateable.

no one else has these psychic feed back as far as i know. not even psykers.

 Desubot wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Reiterating that the Black Rage is a Blood Angel experiencing Sanguinius' death in the modern day, either through witnessing or perceiving that they are Sanguinius. They either witness or experience first hand his death.

It honestly might confirm that his soul really is stuck in the warp and there for rencarnateable.

no one else has these psychic feed back as far as i know. not even psykers.

No one else was torn apart by their closest friend and brother who was also simulataneously possessed by the four of the 5 most powerful beings in the history of the universe, while simulataneously knowing his death was coming, and also being genetically connected to his sons.

I mean, its not unprecendented. On Signus Prime, when Ka'Bandha killed 500 Blood Angels in a single stroke, the psychic backlash of their deaths put Sanguinius in a coma. This is just the same thing but in the opposite direction, and given the violent and tragic nature of his death, and that fact he was their originator, the effect is amplified.

Death Company Sanguinius. There's a pants-gakkingly horrifying concept if I ever heard one.

Much as I would prefer him not to come back, wouldn't this be the most Grimdark think ever?

The Angel of Perfection returning as a gibbering wreck of a man who the Blood Angels can only look on with sorrow and disgust. He would be the mirror of Robute to lead the mirror Imperium, Sanguinus the Mad King as opposed to Roboute the acolyte of logic .
His form just as flawless as always but his mind completely destroyed, perhaps they even lock him up like The Man in the Iron Mask and feed him blood through the mouth slit!