https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/17/new-warhammer-40000-reserves-and-deep-striking-may17gw-homepage-post-4/

Looks good

Looks great! I'm glad they're toning down the randomness.

I like it. The Trygon rule of having a unit following in its tunnel is really flavourful.

Not really. Random charges and "I appear from nowhere to nuke you before you have a chance to respond!" are totally still here. They've just made armies that can't string out expendable space-filling units incredibly vulnerable to Drop Pods.

Looks like null deployment strategies are gone, which is no skin off of my nose.

After any movement phase, that means after the 1st one too. So T1 charges from DS are a thing.
We'll have to see if every unit can DS on T1 like that, but it seems that you could deploy half your army, then DS the other half in your first turn, and charge. That seems pretty brutal.

And. It explains the changes to summoning. Being able to bring in reserve units after turn 3 is a buff to holding points in reserve. I wonder if it also let's them put more than half thier army in reserve too.

Hope it will be rare for units that can DS and have +X" to charge range!

I wonder how they will rework (or delete) the Ynnari rule of SFD...

fresus wrote:
After any movement phase, that means after the 1st one too. So T1 charges from DS are a thing.
We'll have to see if every unit can DS on T1 like that, but it seems that you could deploy half your army, then DS the other half in your first turn, and charge. That seems pretty brutal.

I doubt you can just DS it all round 1.

 Purifier wrote:

fresus wrote:
After any movement phase, that means after the 1st one too. So T1 charges from DS are a thing.
We'll have to see if every unit can DS on T1 like that, but it seems that you could deploy half your army, then DS the other half in your first turn, and charge. That seems pretty brutal.

I doubt you can just DS it all round 1.

Why not? It's exactly what the Trygon does: "at the end of ANY of your movement phases."

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

fresus wrote:
After any movement phase, that means after the 1st one too. So T1 charges from DS are a thing.
We'll have to see if every unit can DS on T1 like that, but it seems that you could deploy half your army, then DS the other half in your first turn, and charge. That seems pretty brutal.

I doubt you can just DS it all round 1.

Why not? It's exactly what the Trygon does: "at the end of ANY of your movement phases."

My doubt isn't that you can't drop anything. It's that I doubt you can drop all of it
You know, like how in 7th drop pods are "half of them in round 1."

 Purifier wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

fresus wrote:
After any movement phase, that means after the 1st one too. So T1 charges from DS are a thing.
We'll have to see if every unit can DS on T1 like that, but it seems that you could deploy half your army, then DS the other half in your first turn, and charge. That seems pretty brutal.

I doubt you can just DS it all round 1.

Why not? It's exactly what the Trygon does: "at the end of ANY of your movement phases."

My doubt isn't that you can't drop anything. It's that I doubt you can drop all of it
You know, like how in 7th drop pods are "half of them in round 1."

Oh! Yeah, you're right. That does seem likely.

So an all pod, null deploy army is completely invalidated? So GW said I could still play with all my models (drop pods), but not really...

Well I think I have to just sell my whole pod army and start something else or just quit. I love having a variety of choices in how to enjoy this great game.

HaussVonHorne wrote:
So an all pod, null deploy army is completely invalidated?

in matched play.

While I realise it's the only "mode" that matters to many of us, me included, they aren't lying. There are two other modes in which your alpha strike list is completely valid.

And they didn't say you would be able to use your strategies. They said your models wouldn't be invalidated, and they're not. Even in matched play, you can still use your drop pods.

This from the Facebook Feed.
"Can reserved units enter the game whenever the owning player wants them to? For example, the subterrainian assault doesn't say if the units can remain underground to come up later or does it have to arrive first turn since it doesn't say it can wait?
Warhammer 40,000 Have a look at the Trygon; it's rules simply say "end of any of your movement phases". Now, that rule is specifically for the Trygon; other units may require a roll, but it will be noted on their datasheet if it is."

So when reserves come on the board are now unit dependant. A lot less random.

@Purifier

We all know there is ONLY matched play. Don't be silly.

 Gloomfang wrote:
This from the Facebook Feed.
"Can reserved units enter the game whenever the owning player wants them to? For example, the subterrainian assault doesn't say if the units can remain underground to come up later or does it have to arrive first turn since it doesn't say it can wait?
Warhammer 40,000 Have a look at the Trygon; it's rules simply say "end of any of your movement phases". Now, that rule is specifically for the Trygon; other units may require a roll, but it will be noted on their datasheet if it is."

So when reserves come on the board are now unit dependant. A lot less random.

I don't trust an official statement that doesn't know the difference between "its" and "it's"

I've been out of the meta since end of 6th ed, and I'm very excited for 8th ed!

That being said, while T1 charges are seemingly very good, they aren't the end of the world anymore. It just opens up more tactical options as a defender of a T1 charge. Obviously, going second is a huge advantage against a T1 charge. Especially considering all units can fall back out of combat, leaving the enemy vulnerable in the shooting phase. Also, I now see how useful the strategem of interrupting the combat sequence can be very strong. Limiting the damage of a T1 charge can significantly swing the game.

As for invalidating DP lists, don't assume anything until we see the rules. They have explicitly stated that there is no more game-wide reserve rules. Therefore, DPs may bypass the Tactical Reserve rules. Of course this is speculation, but I bet if you raise hell on their Facebook page about this topic, they'd take your concern into account.

My stormboyz are excited about the prospect of charging out of reserves!

This is potentially crazy. the rules and stipulations will be in the unit rules so extrapolating from here is dangerous but if a trygon and his posse and charge why wouldn't other units be able to.
So the raptor talon got even better by virtue of not getting a disordered charge (the trygon can charge normally from what we can tell) and you don't even need three units to do it.
A terminator (annihilation force) might well be able to come down fire it's now better combi bolters and then also charge or even if shooting stops them from charging, you could still charge with them lightning claw termies.
All on T1. Of course this makes Black Legion as it is pretty pointless since everybody get's to deepstrike T1 now. Including fire raptors, blood slaughterers and what have you.

I wonder if units will also be able to charge from drop pods now. The possibilities! This edition is shaping up to be one hell of a slaughter fest.

You've got a higher than 50% chance to miss the trygon charge, as you need to roll an 8 to make up the 9 inches distance. If you want to give the group that comes with you a really good chance to charge instead, you place them 3 inches towards your target and they're then in the way of the trygon. It's really good, but it's not an automatic two units in combat.

I think charging out of pods is almost a given at this point.

 Purifier wrote:
You've got a higher than 50% chance to miss the trygon charge, as you need to roll an 8 to make up the 9 inches distance. If you want to give the group that comes with you a really good chance to charge instead, you place them 3 inches towards your target and they're then in the way of the trygon. It's really good, but it's not an automatic two units in combat.

I think charging out of pods is almost a given at this point.

I do believe the units inside the DP will also need to be 9" away similar to the units the Trygon may bring with it. So still need to roll 8+

I guess that depends on how they disembark. Currently they would just walk up a casual 6 inches, leaving a mere 3 inches to charge. More than likely going to change though.

 Purifier wrote:
I like it. The Trygon rule of having a unit following in its tunnel is really flavourful.

He's a nydus worm now


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HaussVonHorne wrote:
So an all pod, null deploy army is completely invalidated? So GW said I could still play with all my models (drop pods), but not really...

Well I think I have to just sell my whole pod army and start something else or just quit. I love having a variety of choices in how to enjoy this great game.

Should never have been a thing to begin with, I think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Roknar wrote:
This is potentially crazy. the rules and stipulations will be in the unit rules so extrapolating from here is dangerous but if a trygon and his posse and charge why wouldn't other units be able to.
So the raptor talon got even better by virtue of not getting a disordered charge (the trygon can charge normally from what we can tell) and you don't even need three units to do it.
A terminator (annihilation force) might well be able to come down fire it's now better combi bolters and then also charge or even if shooting stops them from charging, you could still charge with them lightning claw termies.
All on T1. Of course this makes Black Legion as it is pretty pointless since everybody get's to deepstrike T1 now. Including fire raptors, blood slaughterers and what have you.

I wonder if units will also be able to charge from drop pods now. The possibilities! This edition is shaping up to be one hell of a slaughter fest.

Getting assaulted is no longer a death sentence, though.

Tautastic wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
You've got a higher than 50% chance to miss the trygon charge, as you need to roll an 8 to make up the 9 inches distance. If you want to give the group that comes with you a really good chance to charge instead, you place them 3 inches towards your target and they're then in the way of the trygon. It's really good, but it's not an automatic two units in combat.

I think charging out of pods is almost a given at this point.

I do believe the units inside the DP will also need to be 9" away similar to the units the Trygon may bring with it. So still need to roll 8+

Oh yeah, extra unit has to stay 9" away too. So yeah, it's not a safe charge.

Tautastic wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
You've got a higher than 50% chance to miss the trygon charge, as you need to roll an 8 to make up the 9 inches distance. If you want to give the group that comes with you a really good chance to charge instead, you place them 3 inches towards your target and they're then in the way of the trygon. It's really good, but it's not an automatic two units in combat.

I think charging out of pods is almost a given at this point.

I do believe the units inside the DP will also need to be 9" away similar to the units the Trygon may bring with it. So still need to roll 8+

Actually, it says MORE than 9" away, so you need to roll a 9 just to get within one inch.

It be a long charge. Still, having a whole host of bugs pop up and try to make that charge is something I'm DEFINITELY going to try to do at least once!

 curran12 wrote:
Looks like null deployment strategies are gone, which is no skin off of my nose.

For now, no guarantee of them staying gone. Also, a Deathwing terminator army is confirmed for launch, It seemed likely, but it's nice to have them called out by name.

 Yarium wrote:
It be a long charge. Still, having a whole host of bugs pop up and try to make that charge is something I'm DEFINITELY going to try to do at least once!

And out of all armies Nids should have CP to spare for that reroll.

Bummer about null deployment if totally gone, I thought it was a interesting mechanic and gave some armies a different feel / way of playing tactically.

As for the Trygon rule, about time, might actually be able to
de -shelve these guys and use them again.

The "destroyed if not on the table at end of R3" rule could be huge though.

So no more rolling? They just show up?

How does the 3rd turn rule make sense?

Does that mean there is a way to fail your reserves? Or is the rule just LITERALLY "if you forget to put your model on the table by turn three, it dies"

I guess the 3rd turn limitation is here to avoid reserves coming at the end of the game and taking all the objectives ?

Not all units will have the option to just come out of reserve whenever. So it s a gamble with the units that have to check to be deployed

My mates going to hate this he just started alpha legion because he likes sneaky shenanigans.

I really like this. This is one of the first big changes that might help melee armies.

Although it is also further evidence that Daemons no longer have Deep Strike, as their method of tactical reserve will be Summoning. But charging afterwards is great, even if you have to use those Command points to re-roll long changes.

-

 Purifier wrote:
You've got a higher than 50% chance to miss the trygon charge, as you need to roll an 8 to make up the 9 inches distance. If you want to give the group that comes with you a really good chance to charge instead, you place them 3 inches towards your target and they're then in the way of the trygon. It's really good, but it's not an automatic two units in combat.

I think charging out of pods is almost a given at this point.

That'll definitely give Honour Guard a niche!

This doesn't look so great for genestealer cults unless they retain some extremely funky deployment rules...

It is interesting. The 9" rule combined with the removal of templates means that filling your entire deployment zone with Conscripts will probably be the go-to form of anti-strike protection for Guard players.

Though even for less numerous armies, on a standard 4x6 table deploying along the long side, you've only got to cover 8 9in. increments to make your deployment zone immune to (most) deep-striking. You can cut down the number of units you need to cover it by spreading them horizontally, of course. If someone banks too hard on that of course, it could theoretically be possible to punish them by dropping something that doesn't follow the 9in. rule if such a unit exists.

I am curious what implications this will have for grav-chute insertion. Rapid-fire range on a hot-shot lasgun happens to be 9in., so perhaps a valkyrie and vendetta could drop a Stormtrooper squad and a PCS on top of an unsuspecting infantry unit to blast them with FRFSRF hot-shots, while going on to hit other units with their own weapons in the same turn. Could make for some real (and literal) Ride of the Valkyries moments.

A strict interpretation of "more than 9in." would put them out of rapid fire range of course, but that's basically a question of "are you going to insist that 9.000001in. is not *exactly* 9in., therefore out of range, or are you just going to round it off and call it good?".

Of course, the 9in. rule and the flamer's 8in. range means the quad-flamer kamikaze PCS is dead, as is SWT demo-pack bombing. Neither one a particularly big loss, outside of their amusement factor. Unless grav-chute insertion lets you get closer than 9in, of course.

Meltacide is still a thing of course. At 9in you won't get to re-roll your damage, but S8 AP-4 D1d6 is nothing to scoff at regardless.

 DoomMouse wrote:
This doesn't look so great for genestealer cults unless they retain some extremely funky deployment rules...

I also don't think it looks good for Summoning. Daemons likely do not have a normal Deep Strike rule and can only come in from Reserves via Summoning. As we know this will be a 2d6 psychic test, it is possible that a unit doesn't come in by turn 3 and is this destroyed. Hopefully Summoning has a low casting for most Daemon units, as we are now paying the points to use them, let us use them.

-

 Galef wrote:
I really like this. This is one of the first big changes that might help melee armies.

Although it is also further evidence that Daemons no longer have Deep Strike, as their method of tactical reserve will be Summoning. But charging afterwards is great, even if you have to use those Command points to re-roll long changes.

-

Assuming the 9 inch no go area is largely standard, I wonder if summoning can bypass that. That would make summoning a nice alternative to attempting to deepstriking safely.
You'd risk being denied, but in turn you get closer and with flamers seemingly being 8 inch would be a big advantage for those units.

Was an interesting piece from AoS of late that might have implications for 40k

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/04/tactical-toolbox-zoning-and-area-denial/

Finally - and end to the deepstrike/outflank spam!

You really consider outflank a problem?

Martel732 wrote:
You really consider outflank a problem?

After one of my opponents walked a bunch of Veteran squads into my deployment zone I finally threw the towel in. Massed outflank against an army with literally zero mobility is just far too powerful.

IG have a lot of mobility. You just choose not to use it. You won't win in 8th, either. I'm calling it now. BA have more legitimate problems than IG in 7th, and even *I* am not throwing in the towel over OUTFLANK.

I wouldn't get too hasty writing off Outflank. Outflank didn't scatter in the first place and was quite a different mechanic from Deep Striking, so Outflank might not follow the 9" rule at all.

Though you can't outflank an entire army at least. That, it seems, would be too much even for a tactical genius. :p

 Galef wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
This doesn't look so great for genestealer cults unless they retain some extremely funky deployment rules...

I also don't think it looks good for Summoning. Daemons likely do not have a normal Deep Strike rule and can only come in from Reserves via Summoning. As we know this will be a 2d6 psychic test, it is possible that a unit doesn't come in by turn 3 and is this destroyed. Hopefully Summoning has a low casting for most Daemon units, as we are now paying the points to use them, let us use them.

-

How can you lose units in the 3rd turn if you are summoning? When you summon you just put points aside, don't units. I think that Summoning will be a total different thing that reservers, so you could still summon thins even in the 6th turn.

for the trygon's backup unit who knows if hormigaunts will retain some version of bounding leap?

Hormagaunts should just move 12". Like zerglings are fast in SCII.

Martel732 wrote:
IG have a lot of mobility. You just choose not to use it. You won't win in 8th, either. I'm calling it now. BA have more legitimate problems than IG in 7th, and even *I* am not throwing in the towel over OUTFLANK.

What mobility? You mean the tanks that move 6"? Or the Infantry that walk 6"? Or the Cavalry that canter 12" and then die? Or the Storm Troopers whom deepstrike in, do nothing, and then die? Or the Taurox that costs a fair bit, drives up the field and then dies to small arms fire? Or the Chimera that was nerfed heavily and given a massive points hike for reasons?
Or did you mean allies?

Yeah that was because fo the Stormcast Eternals and denying opponents kill points, only to drop in at the last moment to score unanswered kill points.

 master of ordinance wrote:

What mobility? You mean the tanks that move 6"? Or the Infantry that walk 6"? Or the Cavalry that canter 12" and then die? Or the Storm Troopers whom deepstrike in, do nothing, and then die? Or the Taurox that costs a fair bit, drives up the field and then dies to small arms fire? Or the Chimera that was nerfed heavily and given a massive points hike for reasons?
Or did you mean allies?

Chimeras count as mobility in my book. And let's not forget Valkyries/Vendettas, strong, mobile units in their own right that can also be transports. In 8th, assuming grav-chute insertion is still a thing, they'll be able to do no-scatter fly-by drops without breaking a stride!

Foot Guard aren't entirely lead-footed either though. Move! Move! Move! can really make them book it on the run, and Forward for the Emperor! gives you move-shoot-move. They're no Eldar, to be sure, but the Guard can still beat feet if they really want to. On a 4x6 table they're mobile enough.

 ross-128 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

What mobility? You mean the tanks that move 6"? Or the Infantry that walk 6"? Or the Cavalry that canter 12" and then die? Or the Storm Troopers whom deepstrike in, do nothing, and then die? Or the Taurox that costs a fair bit, drives up the field and then dies to small arms fire? Or the Chimera that was nerfed heavily and given a massive points hike for reasons?
Or did you mean allies?

Chimeras count as mobility in my book. And let's not forget Valkyries/Vendettas, strong, mobile units in their own right that can also be transports. In 8th, assuming grav-chute insertion is still a thing, they'll be able to do no-scatter fly-by drops without breaking a stride!

Foot Guard aren't entirely lead-footed either though. Move! Move! Move! can really make them book it on the run, and Forward for the Emperor! gives you move-shoot-move. They're no Eldar, to be sure, but the Guard can still beat feet if they really want to. On a 4x6 table they're mobile enough.

You don't get to shoot with Move! Move! Move! If you're using Forwards, for the Emperor!, you're not using it to move forward, because you shoot first then run.

Guard can move, just slowly. Mechvets can move, marginally faster, but still slowly. And Chimerae cost twice as much as Rhinos, because they decided to nerf it and increase the cost to force us to take the Taurox.

Outflank isn't a problem, I think, though. You can't be within 1" of me, and I've covered my entire section of the board in a protective field of guardsmen spaced at 2" apart to ensure that there is nowhere you can deepstrike or outflank to that isn't on the other side of my barricade.

I like enemy no-presence turn 1 lists, though. It means fewer things I need to kill to win the game in 1 turn.

 ross-128 wrote:
It is interesting. The 9" rule combined with the removal of templates means that filling your entire deployment zone with Conscripts will probably be the go-to form of anti-strike protection for Guard players.

Though even for less numerous armies, on a standard 4x6 table deploying along the long side, you've only got to cover 8 9in. increments to make your deployment zone immune to (most) deep-striking. You can cut down the number of units you need to cover it by spreading them horizontally, of course. If someone banks too hard on that of course, it could theoretically be possible to punish them by dropping something that doesn't follow the 9in. rule if such a unit exists.

I am curious what implications this will have for grav-chute insertion. Rapid-fire range on a hot-shot lasgun happens to be 9in., so perhaps a valkyrie and vendetta could drop a Stormtrooper squad and a PCS on top of an unsuspecting infantry unit to blast them with FRFSRF hot-shots, while going on to hit other units with their own weapons in the same turn. Could make for some real (and literal) Ride of the Valkyries moments.

A strict interpretation of "more than 9in." would put them out of rapid fire range of course, but that's basically a question of "are you going to insist that 9.000001in. is not *exactly* 9in., therefore out of range, or are you just going to round it off and call it good?".

Of course, the 9in. rule and the flamer's 8in. range means the quad-flamer kamikaze PCS is dead, as is SWT demo-pack bombing. Neither one a particularly big loss, outside of their amusement factor. Unless grav-chute insertion lets you get closer than 9in, of course.

Meltacide is still a thing of course. At 9in you won't get to re-roll your damage, but S8 AP-4 D1d6 is nothing to scoff at regardless.

The strict interpretation of "more than 9 inches" appears to be the official interpretation.

From the Facebook team:

Q: Hey Warhammer 40,000, these new rules look great, but can you clarify if an 8 roll with the dice is enough to assault ? thanks
A: Hmm, we don't think so.
If you are more than 9" away, then moving 8" puts you by definition more than 1" away.

Meltacide is less potent, but still definitely a thing. Multimelta-cide, on the other hand, may still be alive and well!

Plasmacide could also retain a lot of potency, since being more than 9" will still probably let most Plasma guns/rifles Rapidfire...

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
IG have a lot of mobility. You just choose not to use it. You won't win in 8th, either. I'm calling it now. BA have more legitimate problems than IG in 7th, and even *I* am not throwing in the towel over OUTFLANK.

What mobility? You mean the tanks that move 6"? Or the Infantry that walk 6"? Or the Cavalry that canter 12" and then die? Or the Storm Troopers whom deepstrike in, do nothing, and then die? Or the Taurox that costs a fair bit, drives up the field and then dies to small arms fire? Or the Chimera that was nerfed heavily and given a massive points hike for reasons?
Or did you mean allies?

You understand nothing about your own list. This won't change in 8th. Look forward to more losing.

So..."half the army on the table" is going to basically force the game back into 6th-ed gunlinehammer with no-man's land and minimum army variation, with Lictorshame, Ambush GSC, Drop Pod armies, even random stuff like Black Legion Speartip armies going the way of the dodo.

...yup, hard pass.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
IG have a lot of mobility. You just choose not to use it. You won't win in 8th, either. I'm calling it now. BA have more legitimate problems than IG in 7th, and even *I* am not throwing in the towel over OUTFLANK.

What mobility? You mean the tanks that move 6"? Or the Infantry that walk 6"? Or the Cavalry that canter 12" and then die? Or the Storm Troopers whom deepstrike in, do nothing, and then die? Or the Taurox that costs a fair bit, drives up the field and then dies to small arms fire? Or the Chimera that was nerfed heavily and given a massive points hike for reasons?
Or did you mean allies?

You understand nothing about your own list. This won't change in 8th. Look forward to more losing.

I think, my friend, you do not understand the Guard at all. Seeing as you continue to claim the Wyverns are the be all and end all to all problems, and that the Russ should be left aside in favour of them. That and the continued claims that blobs of infantry solve all problems.

I would expect Scouts to get the Gutter Runner rules:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
IG have a lot of mobility. You just choose not to use it. You won't win in 8th, either. I'm calling it now. BA have more legitimate problems than IG in 7th, and even *I* am not throwing in the towel over OUTFLANK.

What mobility? You mean the tanks that move 6"? Or the Infantry that walk 6"? Or the Cavalry that canter 12" and then die? Or the Storm Troopers whom deepstrike in, do nothing, and then die? Or the Taurox that costs a fair bit, drives up the field and then dies to small arms fire? Or the Chimera that was nerfed heavily and given a massive points hike for reasons?
Or did you mean allies?

You understand nothing about your own list. This won't change in 8th. Look forward to more losing.

I think, my friend, you do not understand the Guard at all. Seeing as you continue to claim the Wyverns are the be all and end all to all problems, and that the Russ should be left aside in favour of them. That and the continued claims that blobs of infantry solve all problems.

Blobs of infantry, Wyverns, Manticores, and Basilisks tend to solve most of my problems. Also, ABG Command Tanks and the Aegis Defense Barricade.



Though this doesn't really change my plans. I deploy almost all my models on the board at the start of the game anyway. The only things that go in reserve are sometimes Dominions, if I didn't get first go and I think they're not going to make it to their target otherwise.

Well I'm just repeating what i see in successful guards lists. You are empirically incorrect because i've seen ig lists perform quite well. I've army swapped with ig twice in 7th and had no problem beating drop pod ba.

Martel732 wrote:
Well I'm just repeating what i see in successful guards lists. You are empirically incorrect because i've seen ig lists perform quite well. I've army swapped with ig twice in 7th and had no problem beating drop pod ba.

Guard lists can have a lot of variety, from having a gunline of lascannons and artillery to an armoured battlegroup entirely of leman russ tanks, to a swarm of Chimeras carrying veterans.

An Impy gunline is easy to run. You have no movement phase, except to plug holes in your conscript screen, and just pick targets and focus them down with your artillery until its dead.


Here's the thing with Drop Pods and Deep Strike lists.

With the latter list, I make sure to have a Master of the Fleet in my HQ squad to break up their strikes. The fewer of their units come in together, the better. Then, when they arrive, they have 1000 points versus my 2000 points. They get to shoot at me, but I'm behind an ADL with at least 6" of dudes between my tanks and their guys, so they can't really do much of anything besides burn some conscripts. Then I vaporize them with my tanks and artillery, and re-fill the hole in the conscript screen.

The same applies to Drop Pods, they're just less prone to getting deleted on first turn and can get more on their models down, but they're still half the size of my army.

I know, but when playing itc format, you need mobility. Or even generic maelstrom.

Martel732 wrote:
I know, but when playing itc format, you need mobility. Or even generic maelstrom.

Oddly enough, I needed less mobility in a tournament I played in than in regular maelstrom games. I wasn't playing Guard, though, and I was very mobile, which somewhat undermines the point.

Guard can't get the kind of mobility for maelstrom games, though, even with mechanization. Doesn't mean we can't do well, we're just not nearly fast enough to get every objective laid on our plate.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
IG have a lot of mobility. You just choose not to use it. You won't win in 8th, either. I'm calling it now. BA have more legitimate problems than IG in 7th, and even *I* am not throwing in the towel over OUTFLANK.

What mobility? You mean the tanks that move 6"? Or the Infantry that walk 6"? Or the Cavalry that canter 12" and then die? Or the Storm Troopers whom deepstrike in, do nothing, and then die? Or the Taurox that costs a fair bit, drives up the field and then dies to small arms fire? Or the Chimera that was nerfed heavily and given a massive points hike for reasons?
Or did you mean allies?

You understand nothing about your own list. This won't change in 8th. Look forward to more losing.

I think, my friend, you do not understand the Guard at all. Seeing as you continue to claim the Wyverns are the be all and end all to all problems, and that the Russ should be left aside in favour of them. That and the continued claims that blobs of infantry solve all problems.

It sounds like you're suffering from 5th to 6th/7th shell-shock. Some amasec and bedrest should help settle your nerves.

Hull Points basically killed 5th-ed style mech guard. Which sucks, because I started in 5th ed and love my mech guard! But having 3 wounds tops is a joke for anything you expect to be a front line unit.

Regarding Wyverns: Wyverns are ridiculously under-costed for what they do. Effectively a 4-man mortar team for 75 points, with re-rolls to hit and re-rolls to wound on top? Ka-ching! Purely anti-infantry, sure, but probably the most cost-effective anti-infantry in the codex short of a FRFSRF Prescience Conscript blob (and 48" range plus indirect/barrage are arguably worth the points).

I'm not going to pretend Guard are tournament-competitive in 7th regardless of composition though. We don't have invisible deathstars. We don't have infinite summon spam. We don't have game-breaking formations stuffed full of free models or absurd unique rules (looking at you, Gladius, Riptide Wing, and Optimized Stealth Cadre). The Guard codex is technically solid aside from the curse of Hull Points, their infantry can put enough wounds on the table to make them very difficult to remove, new Orders are good, Divination is absolutely amazing. It's well-balanced, and that's its weakness: it's too well-balanced, it doesn't have cheese.

But that's why I see 8th as possibly the best thing that can happen to the Guard short of rolling back to 5th. We're not getting buffed per se, aside from the change to FRFSRF and our tanks getting more than 3 wounds (as much as I'll miss AV14), but pretty much all the cheese that we don't have is getting an Exterminatus! And that will likely allow our otherwise well-balanced codex to shine.

However, we should probably try to get back to the topic of deep-striking. After all, we haven't answered an important question yet: how will this affect Sly Marbo?

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I know, but when playing itc format, you need mobility. Or even generic maelstrom.

Oddly enough, I needed less mobility in a tournament I played in than in regular maelstrom games. I wasn't playing Guard, though, and I was very mobile, which somewhat undermines the point.

Guard can't get the kind of mobility for maelstrom games, though, even with mechanization. Doesn't mean we can't do well, we're just not nearly fast enough to get every objective laid on our plate.

Chimeras move 18", and Valkyries move 36". Sounds pretty fast to me.

I guess my silly theoretical outflank Buggy Beta Strike list won't be legal for matched play. Not a big loss, as I didn't want to spend the money on 45+ war buggies for a joke list anyway.

I've got two Trygons and their new rules sound fun. I'm excited to see the rules for the Mawloc, although I don't own any of those yet.

 Gloomfang wrote:
Not all units will have the option to just come out of reserve whenever. So it s a gamble with the units that have to check to be deployed

That might be the new version of Deep Strike mishap for some units. Rather than accidentally scattering onto something the unit just never appears on the board and counts as destroyed.

We don't know enough to know how things work now. With no more USRs each unit can be different and not from army to army, but from unit to unit.

We know how the Trygon is supposed to work basically
Then we got Deamons
Y'mal Geanstealers might be Deploy from the nearest piece of terrain still not within 9", but still Assault the turn they show up.
Drop Pods might be 9" + 3" for the disembarking Marines.
Terminators might not all have to show up all in base combat anymore.
'Tnunnler' Pods might make a reappearance leaving a tunnel themselves.
'Scouts' might get to show up along ant edge.

There is still so much we don't know yet.

Martel732 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I know, but when playing itc format, you need mobility. Or even generic maelstrom.

Oddly enough, I needed less mobility in a tournament I played in than in regular maelstrom games. I wasn't playing Guard, though, and I was very mobile, which somewhat undermines the point.

Guard can't get the kind of mobility for maelstrom games, though, even with mechanization. Doesn't mean we can't do well, we're just not nearly fast enough to get every objective laid on our plate.

Chimeras move 18", and Valkyries move 36". Sounds pretty fast to me.

Valkyries don't score points [because flyer], and Chimerae moving 18" forgo all shooting and all the shooting of their passengers. And 18" still doesn't reach 2 to 3 of the 6 objectives on the board you might have to capture in any turn.

Valkyries absolutely score in hover mode.

Sometimes you have to forgo shooting to win the game. Quit thinking more dakka = victory all the time.

Martel732 wrote:
Valkyries absolutely score in hover mode.

Sometimes you have to forgo shooting to win the game. Quit thinking more dakka = victory all the time.

They're not moving 36" and scoring, though. It's important to score the objective on the turn you're dealt it. If they're hovering, they can move 30. That's ignoring the fact that Valkyries are pretty bad, anyway.

And yes, sometimes you do have to forgo shooting. But a Chimera forgoes it's shooting to move half the range a Jetbikes does [and the Bike still gets to shoot]

Ugh, WTF is this . I thought GW had learned from the idiocy of 7th edition's reserves rules and how they crippled thematic armies like deathwing, IG air cav, etc and would have crippled drop pods if space marines hadn't been given a special snowflake rule to let them ignore the limits. But nope, now we're back to 6th edition, except "normal" units can't even go into reserve at all. My level of interest in 8th is quickly dropping.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Valkyries absolutely score in hover mode.

Sometimes you have to forgo shooting to win the game. Quit thinking more dakka = victory all the time.

They're not moving 36" and scoring, though. It's important to score the objective on the turn you're dealt it.

And yes, sometimes you do have to forgo shooting. But a Chimera forgoes it's shooting to move half the range a Jetbikes does [and the Bike still gets to shoot]

Valkyries can parachute out obj sec units that can score, and yes, we know jetbikes are fething broken. That doesn't mean the IG can't move at all. It IS much harder to win with IG than Eldar, but they can still be middle tier with the right builds. That's all I'm saying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
Ugh, WTF is this . I thought GW had learned from the idiocy of 7th edition's reserves rules and how they crippled thematic armies like deathwing, IG air cav, etc and would have crippled drop pods if space marines hadn't been given a special snowflake rule to let them ignore the limits. But nope, now we're back to 6th edition, except "normal" units can't even go into reserve at all. My level of interest in 8th is quickly dropping.

I actually like this better, as most battles with outflankers need to have a pinning force to go with them.

Martel732 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Valkyries absolutely score in hover mode.

Sometimes you have to forgo shooting to win the game. Quit thinking more dakka = victory all the time.

They're not moving 36" and scoring, though. It's important to score the objective on the turn you're dealt it.

And yes, sometimes you do have to forgo shooting. But a Chimera forgoes it's shooting to move half the range a Jetbikes does [and the Bike still gets to shoot]

Valkyries can parachute out obj sec units that can score, and yes, we know jetbikes are fething broken. That doesn't mean the IG can't move at all. It IS much harder to win with IG than Eldar, but they can still be middle tier with the right builds. That's all I'm saying.

I play decidedly middle tier with a gunline that only participates in the psychic and shooting phase. It just comes down to how many objectives can you make your opponent not get, and how many of yours can you get.

Mechvets is among the most effective IG lists I've seen because it had the option to move, but a gunline can be perfectly viable.



Back to the topic of reserves, though, I never really understood the value of reserving something you didn't have to. I took it as a penalty to being able to enter via deep strike or outflank, and if you didn't have deep strike or outflank or weren't going to be using it, start on the board. I like to have all my models around on turn one to maximize my early game firepower and shorten the time it takes for my melee units to get to assault.

Evidently MoO can't replicate your level of success, and I think that for particularly ITC (which is my meta), more movement is generally better. IG just can't gunline as well as Tau, so they need a slightly different niche. The mixture I fear most is mechvets/artillery/primaris diviation/blob/flyers. Very potent build for other mid tier lists to deal with.

Martel732 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I know, but when playing itc format, you need mobility. Or even generic maelstrom.

Oddly enough, I needed less mobility in a tournament I played in than in regular maelstrom games. I wasn't playing Guard, though, and I was very mobile, which somewhat undermines the point.

Guard can't get the kind of mobility for maelstrom games, though, even with mechanization. Doesn't mean we can't do well, we're just not nearly fast enough to get every objective laid on our plate.

Chimeras move 18", and Valkyries move 36". Sounds pretty fast to me.

Moves 18" and then gets vaporised by anything that sniffs in its direction, costing you 65 points plus upgrades to have a unit isolated in no mans land.
Try again.

I do the same thing with Rhinos. Works fine, especially vs mid tier and worse. So I know it will work with Chimeras, especially if you don't fail keep as many opponents on your front as you can. Guard can knock out enemy transports faster than the enemy can knock out Chimeras usually, so the IG end up with a movement advantage in those cases. Bikes are a different bag, but your blobs have access to fire on my target, which is basically one dead bike squad a turn.

Martel732 wrote:
Evidently MoO can't replicate your level of success, and I think that for particularly ITC (which is my meta), more movement is generally better. IG just can't gunline as well as Tau, so they need a slightly different niche. The mixture I fear most is mechvets/artillery/primaris diviation/blob/flyers. Very potent build for other mid tier lists to deal with.

No. Guard has a stronger gunline. If you make a wall, and hide behind the wall, I'm going to sit here in my own wall just beyond your range and blast you to itty-bitty-bits with my superior long-range firepower. Because, to be honest, the Imperial Guard does have better long range firepower than the Tau. Tau have superior mid-range firepower, but our big guns are cheaper and better than theirs. They have superior mobility, we have superior stationary firepower.

It's good to be able to move if you have to, especially with random objectives, but Imperial Guard gunlines are very viable.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


Chimeras move 18", and Valkyries move 36". Sounds pretty fast to me.

Moves 18" and then gets vaporised by anything that sniffs in its direction, costing you 65 points plus upgrades to have a unit isolated in no mans land.
Try again.

You're being melodramatic. I haven't had problems with Chimera suvivability, at least any more than I have issues with the survivability of my other units.

Martel732 wrote:
I do the same thing with Rhinos. Works fine, especially vs mid tier and worse. So I know it will work with Chimeras, especially if you don't fail keep as many opponents on your front as you can. Guard can knock out enemy transports faster than the enemy can knock out Chimeras usually, so the IG end up with a movement advantage in those cases. Bikes are a different bag, but your blobs have access to fire on my target, which is basically one dead bike squad a turn.

Patently wrong. Light transports are the Imperial Guard's second greatest weakness. Compared to our ability to delete heavy vehicles and our ability to delete all kinds of infantry, mechanized infantry really is a problem for us, right after monstrous creatures.

Rhinos are half the price of a Chimera.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Evidently MoO can't replicate your level of success, and I think that for particularly ITC (which is my meta), more movement is generally better. IG just can't gunline as well as Tau, so they need a slightly different niche. The mixture I fear most is mechvets/artillery/primaris diviation/blob/flyers. Very potent build for other mid tier lists to deal with.

No. Guard has a stronger gunline. If you make a wall, and hide behind the wall, I'm going to sit here in my own wall just beyond your range and blast you to itty-bitty-bits with my superior long-range firepower. Because, to be honest, the Imperial Guard does have better long range firepower than the Tau. Tau have superior mid-range firepower, but our big guns are cheaper and better than theirs. They have superior mobility, we have superior stationary firepower.

It's good to be able to move if you have to, especially with random objectives, but Imperial Guard gunlines are very viable.

Tau gunlines are better because their guns are immortal. Put some markerlights behind a void shield, and they become very tough as well. The best you can get with IG are 4++ blobs and aegis lines. There are a lot of ways around those. IG guns basically don't work on the big suits, so IG loses that one badly, and Tau firepower doesn't degrade as quickly as IG firepower. That's why Tau are higher tier.

Martel732 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Evidently MoO can't replicate your level of success, and I think that for particularly ITC (which is my meta), more movement is generally better. IG just can't gunline as well as Tau, so they need a slightly different niche. The mixture I fear most is mechvets/artillery/primaris diviation/blob/flyers. Very potent build for other mid tier lists to deal with.

No. Guard has a stronger gunline. If you make a wall, and hide behind the wall, I'm going to sit here in my own wall just beyond your range and blast you to itty-bitty-bits with my superior long-range firepower. Because, to be honest, the Imperial Guard does have better long range firepower than the Tau. Tau have superior mid-range firepower, but our big guns are cheaper and better than theirs. They have superior mobility, we have superior stationary firepower.

It's good to be able to move if you have to, especially with random objectives, but Imperial Guard gunlines are very viable.

Tau gunlines are better because their guns are immortal. Put some markerlights behind a void shield, and they become very tough as well. The best you can get with IG are 4++ blobs and aegis lines. There are a lot of ways around those. IG guns basically don't work on the big suits, so IG loses that one badly, and Tau firepower doesn't degrade as quickly as IG firepower. That's why Tau are higher tier.

Tau are the higher tier because their big suits move and are tough. If mister Riptide and his 2 friends are going to camp cover over there, I'm going to win, through virtue of more firepower today. Every markerlight spent ignoring my barricade is a markerlight not improving his shooting, for firing a destroyer missile, and I only paid 50 points for that barricade. I got far more inches of barricade than he got inches of tideline for 1.5 times the price I paid for the barricade, I've got all the guardsmen I could ever need for a pittance, and the remainder went into tanks, artillery, and heavy weapons. I'm not going to lose the shootout.

Wyverns and Basilisks can scour the gunrigs, and I can Ignore Cover with almost any unit in my army too. I do it with cheaper units, though, so I have more, bigger guns.

But, deep-striking crisis suits, and the Optimized Stealth Cadre, and Riptidewing that Jump-Shoot-Jumps its way forward [because, as a gunline, I only control my 2 tiles of the board], are really where the Tau outshines us. I've played against the Tau a lot, and I've won against the Tau a lot.

I think the shootout is a stalemate, because he's got lots of points wrapped up in move shoot jump suits that you can't get off the table with Imperial heavy weapons. Ie, the Riptide and Stormsurge both being broken as feth dooms you in most games.

OSC is also a super hard counter to IG in general. Deep striking suits are a concern, I suppose, but not as much as immortal guns and OSC. At least your infantry can fire on my target against the OSC.

And the way you've described your IG, you've got very poor board control.

Martel732 wrote:
I think the shootout is a stalemate, because he's got lots of points wrapped up in move shoot jump suits that you can't get off the table with Imperial heavy weapons. Ie, the Riptide and Stormsurge both being broken as feth dooms you in most games.

OSC is also a super hard counter to IG in general. Deep striking suits are a concern, I suppose, but not as much as immortal guns and OSC.

And the way you've described your IG, you've got very poor board control.

But the OSC isn't a gunline, and the move shoot jump suits aren't the gunline. I'm not saying Guard is better than Tau. I'm saying that an Imperial Guard Gunline is better than a Tau Gunline.

Gunline guard has extremely poor board control.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think the shootout is a stalemate, because he's got lots of points wrapped up in move shoot jump suits that you can't get off the table with Imperial heavy weapons. Ie, the Riptide and Stormsurge both being broken as feth dooms you in most games.

OSC is also a super hard counter to IG in general. Deep striking suits are a concern, I suppose, but not as much as immortal guns and OSC.

And the way you've described your IG, you've got very poor board control.

But the OSC isn't a gunline, and the move shoot jump suits aren't the gunline.

Gunline guard has extremely poor board control. I'm not saying Guard is better than Tau. I'm saying that an Imperial Guard Gunline is better than a Tau Gunline.

OSC and move shoot jump suits are a gunline. But they are a mobile gunline instead of an immobile gun line. And being functionally immortal helps a lot, too.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
So..."half the army on the table" is going to basically force the game back into 6th-ed gunlinehammer with no-man's land and minimum army variation, with Lictorshame, Ambush GSC, Drop Pod armies, even random stuff like Black Legion Speartip armies going the way of the dodo.

...yup, hard pass.

Thats a big jump to conclussions.

 Peregrine wrote:
Ugh, WTF is this . I thought GW had learned from the idiocy of 7th edition's reserves rules and how they crippled thematic armies like deathwing, IG air cav, etc and would have crippled drop pods if space marines hadn't been given a special snowflake rule to let them ignore the limits. But nope, now we're back to 6th edition, except "normal" units can't even go into reserve at all. My level of interest in 8th is quickly dropping.

We don't know this yet buddy.

FWIW, I'm praying that Deathwing will have it's own bespoke rule to override that deployment requirement, and instead half the number of units are auto-dropped in turn 1.

I wonder how disembark rules will interact with the DS rules.

If you DS a transport 9" away from an enemy unit and then disembark the model's you're automatically shaving inches. Even if the disembarked models must be placed B2B with the transport, you're looking at anywhere from 1-2" being shaved off that 9" distance.

And a 7" charge is alot more reliable then a 9" one.

I'm going to bet that everything that deep strikes has to end up more than 9" away. But they are eligible to assault.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I wonder how disembark rules will interact with the DS rules.

If you DS a transport 9" away from an enemy unit and then disembark the model's you're automatically shaving inches. Even if the disembarked models must be placed B2B with the transport, you're looking at anywhere from 1-2" being shaved off that 9" distance.

And a 7" charge is alot more reliable then a 9" one.

Hopefully it ends up like the Trygon rules, where they must still remain outside the 9" but within X" of the transport.

 Peregrine wrote:
Ugh, WTF is this . I thought GW had learned from the idiocy of 7th edition's reserves rules and how they crippled thematic armies like deathwing, IG air cav, etc and would have crippled drop pods if space marines hadn't been given a special snowflake rule to let them ignore the limits. But nope, now we're back to 6th edition, except "normal" units can't even go into reserve at all. My level of interest in 8th is quickly dropping.

You're still in the mindset of 1 way to play. If you want to play an all drop deathwing army just play narrative game. The rules about starting on the table are only for matched play. Easy-peasy.

ERJAK wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Ugh, WTF is this . I thought GW had learned from the idiocy of 7th edition's reserves rules and how they crippled thematic armies like deathwing, IG air cav, etc and would have crippled drop pods if space marines hadn't been given a special snowflake rule to let them ignore the limits. But nope, now we're back to 6th edition, except "normal" units can't even go into reserve at all. My level of interest in 8th is quickly dropping.

You're still in the mindset of 1 way to play. If you want to play an all drop deathwing army just play narrative game. The rules about starting on the table are only for matched play. Easy-peasy.

Issue is how many people will play that way. A lot of people only play Matched in AoS because it's the easiest to balance.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm going to bet that everything that deep strikes has to end up more than 9" away. But they are eligible to assault.

Yeah, it's hard to say, really. Each one is going to be uniquely written, even if copy & paste settles in, and could have different ranges. Drop Pods may have similar Disembarking rules to the Trygon's tunnels, for example.

Flyers may be on the same Reserve schedule, too. I do wonder if the new version of Ongoing Reserves will be affected by the Turn 3 consideration.

Interesting to note that it's basically in-game Infiltrate, too.

pm713 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Ugh, WTF is this . I thought GW had learned from the idiocy of 7th edition's reserves rules and how they crippled thematic armies like deathwing, IG air cav, etc and would have crippled drop pods if space marines hadn't been given a special snowflake rule to let them ignore the limits. But nope, now we're back to 6th edition, except "normal" units can't even go into reserve at all. My level of interest in 8th is quickly dropping.

You're still in the mindset of 1 way to play. If you want to play an all drop deathwing army just play narrative game. The rules about starting on the table are only for matched play. Easy-peasy.

Issue is how many people will play that way. A lot of people only play Matched in AoS because it's the easiest to balance.

Yeah, but even then it's not uncommon for people to do things like 'hey I got this cool new model but he'd break my allegiance, is it okay if I use him anyway?' 99% of the time people are chill.

If you're at a tournament it won't fly but pick up games and narrative events should still be solid.

pm713 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Ugh, WTF is this . I thought GW had learned from the idiocy of 7th edition's reserves rules and how they crippled thematic armies like deathwing, IG air cav, etc and would have crippled drop pods if space marines hadn't been given a special snowflake rule to let them ignore the limits. But nope, now we're back to 6th edition, except "normal" units can't even go into reserve at all. My level of interest in 8th is quickly dropping.

You're still in the mindset of 1 way to play. If you want to play an all drop deathwing army just play narrative game. The rules about starting on the table are only for matched play. Easy-peasy.

Issue is how many people will play that way. A lot of people only play Matched in AoS because it's the easiest to balance.

You might be surprised, my group loves the Narrative Play for 'Lets get together and blow up' and Matched play is for 'Tournament' style play.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm going to bet that everything that deep strikes has to end up more than 9" away. But they are eligible to assault.

I hope that's not the case and the 9" is just for deployment, but I guess it wouldn't be so bad. We also don't know if 9" is for everything or just this one unit, but if most everything can be infiltrated/scouted/deployed within 9" then alpha strike lists are going to be big.

I'm hoping that they really restrict what can go in reserve and what can scout and deepstrike and such. There is way to much of it and it makes the units that can do it less special.

 Luciferian wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm going to bet that everything that deep strikes has to end up more than 9" away. But they are eligible to assault.

I hope that's not the case and the 9" is just for deployment, but I guess it wouldn't be so bad. We also don't know if 9" is for everything or just this one unit, but if most everything can be infiltrated/scouted/deployed within 9" then alpha strike lists are going to be big.

First, it's outside of 9, important distinction. Second, not really. Only half your army can go into reserves in matched play anyway so you're limited to like 1000pts at most, which compared to current drop pod marines is nothing. Third, CC alpha lists are going to be incredibly unreliable with all of them having to make 9" charges.

ERJAK wrote:


First, it's outside of 9, important distinction. Second, not really. Only half your army can go into reserves in matched play anyway so you're limited to like 1000pts at most, which compared to current drop pod marines is nothing. Third, CC alpha lists are going to be incredibly unreliable with all of them having to make 9" charges.

Sure, but if units that currently have scout type rules will be keeping them then I'll be able to deploy all but three of my models outside that 9". That's closer than they could get in 7th.

Maybe units won't be able to get out of a transport the turn it DS if it always happens at the end of the movement phase, with obvious exceptions like droppods.

"Primaris-patttern Drop-Pods(TM)" will be able to drop within 6" of enemy units

Primaris Assault: An army comprised purely of units with the PRIMARIS keyword may withhold up to 75% of their army list and deploy them as reserves

S
C
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this

Please, please let this mean the end of Deathwing as one-trick ponies. And I say this as someone who mostly just plays transportless, teleporting Deathwing on foot. It is cool to give them some perks to deep strike, but making it their whole shtick was the worst thing GW did to the Deathwing since the 3rd Edition thin-dex.

Teleporting should be a tactical consideration, not the only thing they're good at doing. More, they shouldn't have to rely on taking contingents of Ravenwing just to be halfway decent at the only thing they were designed to do.

I hope GW take this change to make Deathwing a bit more flexible instead of the one trick pony they've been for the last few iterations.

Remember the "half your army on the table" rule only applies to matched play. If you want to play really thematic lists isn't that what narrative is for.

Matched to me is flluff sacrificed for balance. That means limiting extremes.

Narrative is fluff first, balance second. So fewer restrictions should apply.

 Ronin_eX wrote:
Please, please let this mean the end of Deathwing as one-trick ponies. And I say this as someone who mostly just plays transportless, teleporting Deathwing on foot. It is cool to give them some perks to deep strike, but making it their whole shtick was the worst thing GW did to the Deathwing since the 3rd Edition thin-dex.

Teleporting should be a tactical consideration, not the only thing they're good at doing. More, they shouldn't have to rely on taking contingents of Ravenwing just to be halfway decent at the only thing they were designed to do.

I hope GW take this change to make Deathwing a bit more flexible instead of the one trick pony they've been for the last few iterations.

That would require a new sprue, I think. While Terminators could become a type of Jump Infantry ala the Grey Knight teleporters, I think the biggest problems with Terminators is that their firepower is rather one-dimensional or they are assault monsters. I do believe that the assault-based Terminators are fine in this regard, but would it hurt if the "Tactical Terminators" had more heavy options than a Flamer, Assault Cannon, or Missile Launcher?

I know that people often talk about the Storm Bolter, but it isn't unique to the Terminator-armoured. It will have to undergo some considerations in order to compete with the Chaos Combi-Bolter, though.

 Charistoph wrote:

That would require a new sprue, I think. While Terminators could become a type of Jump Infantry ala the Grey Knight teleporters, I think the biggest problems with Terminators is that their firepower is rather one-dimensional or they are assault monsters. I do believe that the assault-based Terminators are fine in this regard, but would it hurt if the "Tactical Terminators" had more heavy options than a Flamer, Assault Cannon, or Missile Launcher?

Well, DW also get a plasma cannon. But I do admit a facelift on all of their heavy weapons would be nice (or at least something to make the assault cannon not the automatic choice). The heavy flamer is pretty easy, especially now that it isn't hamstrung by the small flamer template. Give it a range bump, convert its statline, and make it multi-damage like it used to be. Strength 5 got a decent boost this edition, -1 AP is a great boon against even heavy infantry (that used to ignore it) and dealing multiple wounds would make a lot of tougher units think twice. The assault cannon will probably remain pretty similar, 4 shots, S6, and AP -2 (since Rending appears to bump AP up by 1). The big question will be whether it is a multi-damage weapon like it used to be, or if it is going to one damage. Hell, it may even get some kind of unique special rule in addition to the base statline. And seeing the Cyclone Missile Launcher be something other than a Heavy 2 launcher would be a nice change. I mean, we're not getting our 12-shot limited ammo launcher back, but something on the unique side might be a nice change.

And for the DW, if the plasma cannon can become a decent weapon again then that will be a big boon as well.

But the heavy weapons haven't really been the main issue, the issue is that the rest of the squad puts out less fire than a tactical squad. For that, the storm bolter needs a face lift.

I know that people often talk about the Storm Bolter, but it isn't unique to the Terminator-armoured. It will have to undergo some considerations in order to compete with the Chaos Combi-Bolter, though.

Honestly, I still think the tactical terminators can be fixed with a simple upgrade to the Storm Bolter and giving everyone else that isn't a terminator a combi-bolter (which is what it used to be like back in 2nd).

From the sounds of it, the storm bolter will be getting some kind of upgrade (dropped a hint in one of the FB Q&A's) but we still don't know the nature of it. But if they make it more than just a twin bolter and in to the missing link between a heavy bolter and a boltgun then we are in business.

And as you said the storm bolter will need something what with the combi-bolter either becoming a twin bolter (i.e. Rapid Fire 2) or a combi-weapon (i.e. firing both boltguns at a -1 to hit). And if we still have distinctions between a sword, axe, and mace in close combat weapons, then I can't see them making a single category for various dual bolt weapons. Hell, maybe the storm bolter becomes a twin bolt rifle? Now wouldn't that be something (S4, AP -1, Rapid Fire 2 *drool*)?

But DW being one-trick ponies is more down to other factors:
1) Reliance on expensive Ravenwing Models to bring them in
2) Their most potent special rule being based on teleporting
3) Dreads and Land Raiders have been terrible for a long while and the DW actively lose out if they put anything other than Knights in a transport

The rest of the problems with the DW are down to endemic problems with terminators (that are hopefully, finally solved this edition). But the DW layer their own issues on to that, and most of the blame is squarely on GW designing them with Dualwing play in mind and nothing else. Making the DW so reliant on the RW to function properly not only killed mono-DW, but it also tended to kill interest in sprinkling DW in with battle company units. Basically, each time the DA got an update, it was mostly aimed at forcing them in to a singular play style and the DW suffered heavily from this because they relied on so many other units in the list to do their job (with the worst bit being that the units they relied on, Ravenwing, didn't really need the DW around to do anything).

Bottom line, DW shouldn't be focusing on a single thing anymore, especially now that null-deployment lists are against matched play rules. Seeing more viable variety if someone decides to run Deathwing would be a great thing.

 Ronin_eX wrote:
But DW being one-trick ponies is more down to other factors:

Since they are better Terminators, I do believe most of the problems are endemic to the Terminator side more than anything else.

 Ronin_eX wrote:
1) Reliance on expensive Ravenwing Models to bring them in

Not reliant, just better. They are no worse off here than any other Terminators. Indeed, aside from the expense, Ravenwing are better at the job than Scout Bikers.

 Ronin_eX wrote:
2) Their most potent special rule being based on teleporting

Not a problem if this continued, actually. Deep Striking is going to be a mid-game Infiltrate. That solves half their problems right there, especially with point 1. In fact, this is part of what makes them better than codex/Angel/Wolf Terminators in the first place.

 Ronin_eX wrote:
3) Dreads and Land Raiders have been terrible for a long while and the DW actively lose out if they put anything other than Knights in a transport

Nothing different from regular Terminators and Dreadnoughts here.

All things considered, I would enjoy seeing Belial get a "Veil of Darkness" ability for Deathwing Keyword units within 6" of him. It would address many of those very reserve issues you were thinking of, I think.

 Luciferian wrote:

ERJAK wrote:


First, it's outside of 9, important distinction. Second, not really. Only half your army can go into reserves in matched play anyway so you're limited to like 1000pts at most, which compared to current drop pod marines is nothing. Third, CC alpha lists are going to be incredibly unreliable with all of them having to make 9" charges.

Sure, but if units that currently have scout type rules will be keeping them then I'll be able to deploy all but three of my models outside that 9". That's closer than they could get in 7th.

? I'm sorry something got lost in translation. What does scout have to do with it? Even if they keep scout reserves come in in the movement phase and scout happens pregame (keeping with 7th) So it's not like you can deepstrike some scouts or w/e and then scout them forward.

ERJAK wrote:


? I'm sorry something got lost in translation. What does scout have to do with it? Even if they keep scout reserves come in in the movement phase and scout happens pregame (keeping with 7th) So it's not like you can deepstrike some scouts or w/e and then scout them forward.

Like I said earlier, I'm not basing this off of much. I also kind of brushed over the article. However, the rule example they give for the Trygon takes effect during deployment, not as a reserve coming onto the board during the movement phase. They actually don't mention any distance limitations for deep striking at all.

Of course, this could be merely a rule for this one unit, and infiltrating and deep striking could work completely differently, even on a case by case basis.

 Luciferian wrote:

ERJAK wrote:


? I'm sorry something got lost in translation. What does scout have to do with it? Even if they keep scout reserves come in in the movement phase and scout happens pregame (keeping with 7th) So it's not like you can deepstrike some scouts or w/e and then scout them forward.

Like I said earlier, I'm not basing this off of much. I also kind of brushed over the article. However, the rule example they give for the Trygon takes effect during deployment, not as a reserve coming onto the board during the movement phase. They actually don't mention any distance limitations for deep striking at all.

Of course, this could be merely a rule for this one unit, and infiltrating and deep striking could work completely differently, even on a case by case basis.

The Trygon rule takes place in deployment and during the game.

1st: During Deployment, you place a <HIVE FLEET> Troops unit in the tunnel with the Trygon. This is almost like a Drop Pod/Mycetic Spore.
2nd: During the game at the end of a Movement Phase (by the third), you place the Trygon over 9" from any enemy unit, and the Troops unit is over 9" from any enemy unit and wholly within 3" of the Trygon.

So, this is nothing like Scout, which is wholly within Deployment and (currently) carries zero restrictions of range distance.

Null deploys are dead, and GW has killed them!

I'm really excited by the new rules for the Trygon's tunnel, and looking forward to the possibilities Genestealers and a Broodlord for a devastating assault, Termagants with Devourers for a bucketload of shooting...

 Charistoph wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:

ERJAK wrote:


? I'm sorry something got lost in translation. What does scout have to do with it? Even if they keep scout reserves come in in the movement phase and scout happens pregame (keeping with 7th) So it's not like you can deepstrike some scouts or w/e and then scout them forward.

Like I said earlier, I'm not basing this off of much. I also kind of brushed over the article. However, the rule example they give for the Trygon takes effect during deployment, not as a reserve coming onto the board during the movement phase. They actually don't mention any distance limitations for deep striking at all.

Of course, this could be merely a rule for this one unit, and infiltrating and deep striking could work completely differently, even on a case by case basis.

The Trygon rule takes place in deployment and during the game.

1st: During Deployment, you place a <HIVE FLEET> Troops unit in the tunnel with the Trygon. This is almost like a Drop Pod/Mycetic Spore.
2nd: During the game at the end of a Movement Phase (by the third), you place the Trygon over 9" from any enemy unit, and the Troops unit is over 9" from any enemy unit and wholly within 3" of the Trygon.

So, this is nothing like Scout, which is wholly within Deployment and (currently) carries zero restrictions of range distance.

Yea, it's more of a mid battle Infiltrate. With a touch of "HQ sharing rules".

Guys, I think I've missed one crucial information in the article: does it say how units enter from reserves? They mentioned units that don't enter from Reserves by turn 3 are destroyed - but how can I determine if a unit enters or not? Still a die roll?

 Vector Strike wrote:
Guys, I think I've missed one crucial information in the article: does it say how units enter from reserves? They mentioned units that don't enter from Reserves by turn 3 are destroyed - but how can I determine if a unit enters or not? Still a die roll?

Each unit will have its own way of coming from reserve.
The Tyrgon comes at the end of any movement phase (player's choice), by a no-scatter deep-strike, without rolling any dice.

Other units might need a die roll, might only come at T2+, etc. We can only guess at this point.

fresus wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
Guys, I think I've missed one crucial information in the article: does it say how units enter from reserves? They mentioned units that don't enter from Reserves by turn 3 are destroyed - but how can I determine if a unit enters or not? Still a die roll?

Each unit will have its own way of coming from reserve.
The Tyrgon comes at the end of any movement phase (player's choice), by a no-scatter deep-strike, without rolling any dice.

Other units might need a die roll, might only come at T2+, etc. We can only guess at this point.

thanks!

Personally liking this myself. Assault from deep strike is vital to so many units bring actually usable. I also like that they're killing null deploy. I'm hopeful that some lists that want to do stuff like null deploy can instead pre turn 1 deep strike to get their half of units on board.

HaussVonHorne wrote:
So an all pod, null deploy army is completely invalidated? So GW said I could still play with all my models (drop pods), but not really...

Well I think I have to just sell my whole pod army and start something else or just quit. I love having a variety of choices in how to enjoy this great game.

Your models are all probably still valid....you'll just need to add another half as many units that need to start on the board

I really don't like rolling to come in at all. It's good to see some big important units won't need to as well as the ability to effect another unit with that. Still makes me feel like whatever units will have to roll will be the unlucky few.

Drop pods are awsome but spamming 1 thing for an entire army is not. I think it is cool to watch 5 drop pods crash all over the board but thats a narrative game not a matched one. marines have the largest variation of models to choose from; find somthing to put down for deployment. Could even pick up a fortification for that matter.

For those who didn't catch it, the recent live Q&A confirmed that nothing overrides Tactical Reserves, so don't go hoping that your Drop Pods or Deathwing Terminators can null-deploy.


Also Drop Pods are confirmed to work like Trygons when it comes to the distance both it and its embarked unit needs to keep away from enemy units (over 9").

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
For those who didn't catch it, the recent live Q&A confirmed that nothing overrides Tactical Reserves, so don't go hoping that your Drop Pods or Deathwing Terminators can null-deploy.


Also Drop Pods are confirmed to work like Trygons when it comes to the distance both it and its embarked unit needs to keep away from enemy units (over 9").

Does this mean that you can charge from drop pods, since they have this restriction?

 Marmatag wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
For those who didn't catch it, the recent live Q&A confirmed that nothing overrides Tactical Reserves, so don't go hoping that your Drop Pods or Deathwing Terminators can null-deploy.


Also Drop Pods are confirmed to work like Trygons when it comes to the distance both it and its embarked unit needs to keep away from enemy units (over 9").

Does this mean that you can charge from drop pods, since they have this restriction?

They didn't say either way, so I can't say for sure.

Unless their rules states otherwise - or the transport rules disallow charging out of moving transports, and deploying Drop Pods from reserves counts as moving - they definitely can, though.

Overall, I love this change as it makes armies with heavy Reserves viable (I.e. less reliant on luck) yet prevents an over abuse on Reserves (such as null deployment). It's a good example of balance.

For reserves to be called "reserves" it should imply that a portion of you force already has a significant presence on the battlefield to call in such 'reserves". Ergo, having to deploy at least half your units makes perfect sense no matter how "fluffy" you think it is to null deploy.

And it makes perfect sense for those reserves to come in when and where you need them.

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