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pm713 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Ugh, WTF is this . I thought GW had learned from the idiocy of 7th edition's reserves rules and how they crippled thematic armies like deathwing, IG air cav, etc and would have crippled drop pods if space marines hadn't been given a special snowflake rule to let them ignore the limits. But nope, now we're back to 6th edition, except "normal" units can't even go into reserve at all. My level of interest in 8th is quickly dropping.

You're still in the mindset of 1 way to play. If you want to play an all drop deathwing army just play narrative game. The rules about starting on the table are only for matched play. Easy-peasy.

Issue is how many people will play that way. A lot of people only play Matched in AoS because it's the easiest to balance.

Yeah, but even then it's not uncommon for people to do things like 'hey I got this cool new model but he'd break my allegiance, is it okay if I use him anyway?' 99% of the time people are chill.

If you're at a tournament it won't fly but pick up games and narrative events should still be solid.

pm713 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Ugh, WTF is this . I thought GW had learned from the idiocy of 7th edition's reserves rules and how they crippled thematic armies like deathwing, IG air cav, etc and would have crippled drop pods if space marines hadn't been given a special snowflake rule to let them ignore the limits. But nope, now we're back to 6th edition, except "normal" units can't even go into reserve at all. My level of interest in 8th is quickly dropping.

You're still in the mindset of 1 way to play. If you want to play an all drop deathwing army just play narrative game. The rules about starting on the table are only for matched play. Easy-peasy.

Issue is how many people will play that way. A lot of people only play Matched in AoS because it's the easiest to balance.

You might be surprised, my group loves the Narrative Play for 'Lets get together and blow up' and Matched play is for 'Tournament' style play.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm going to bet that everything that deep strikes has to end up more than 9" away. But they are eligible to assault.

I hope that's not the case and the 9" is just for deployment, but I guess it wouldn't be so bad. We also don't know if 9" is for everything or just this one unit, but if most everything can be infiltrated/scouted/deployed within 9" then alpha strike lists are going to be big.

I'm hoping that they really restrict what can go in reserve and what can scout and deepstrike and such. There is way to much of it and it makes the units that can do it less special.

 Luciferian wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm going to bet that everything that deep strikes has to end up more than 9" away. But they are eligible to assault.

I hope that's not the case and the 9" is just for deployment, but I guess it wouldn't be so bad. We also don't know if 9" is for everything or just this one unit, but if most everything can be infiltrated/scouted/deployed within 9" then alpha strike lists are going to be big.

First, it's outside of 9, important distinction. Second, not really. Only half your army can go into reserves in matched play anyway so you're limited to like 1000pts at most, which compared to current drop pod marines is nothing. Third, CC alpha lists are going to be incredibly unreliable with all of them having to make 9" charges.

ERJAK wrote:


First, it's outside of 9, important distinction. Second, not really. Only half your army can go into reserves in matched play anyway so you're limited to like 1000pts at most, which compared to current drop pod marines is nothing. Third, CC alpha lists are going to be incredibly unreliable with all of them having to make 9" charges.

Sure, but if units that currently have scout type rules will be keeping them then I'll be able to deploy all but three of my models outside that 9". That's closer than they could get in 7th.

Maybe units won't be able to get out of a transport the turn it DS if it always happens at the end of the movement phase, with obvious exceptions like droppods.

"Primaris-patttern Drop-Pods(TM)" will be able to drop within 6" of enemy units

Primaris Assault: An army comprised purely of units with the PRIMARIS keyword may withhold up to 75% of their army list and deploy them as reserves

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this

Please, please let this mean the end of Deathwing as one-trick ponies. And I say this as someone who mostly just plays transportless, teleporting Deathwing on foot. It is cool to give them some perks to deep strike, but making it their whole shtick was the worst thing GW did to the Deathwing since the 3rd Edition thin-dex.

Teleporting should be a tactical consideration, not the only thing they're good at doing. More, they shouldn't have to rely on taking contingents of Ravenwing just to be halfway decent at the only thing they were designed to do.

I hope GW take this change to make Deathwing a bit more flexible instead of the one trick pony they've been for the last few iterations.

Remember the "half your army on the table" rule only applies to matched play. If you want to play really thematic lists isn't that what narrative is for.

Matched to me is flluff sacrificed for balance. That means limiting extremes.

Narrative is fluff first, balance second. So fewer restrictions should apply.

 Ronin_eX wrote:
Please, please let this mean the end of Deathwing as one-trick ponies. And I say this as someone who mostly just plays transportless, teleporting Deathwing on foot. It is cool to give them some perks to deep strike, but making it their whole shtick was the worst thing GW did to the Deathwing since the 3rd Edition thin-dex.

Teleporting should be a tactical consideration, not the only thing they're good at doing. More, they shouldn't have to rely on taking contingents of Ravenwing just to be halfway decent at the only thing they were designed to do.

I hope GW take this change to make Deathwing a bit more flexible instead of the one trick pony they've been for the last few iterations.

That would require a new sprue, I think. While Terminators could become a type of Jump Infantry ala the Grey Knight teleporters, I think the biggest problems with Terminators is that their firepower is rather one-dimensional or they are assault monsters. I do believe that the assault-based Terminators are fine in this regard, but would it hurt if the "Tactical Terminators" had more heavy options than a Flamer, Assault Cannon, or Missile Launcher?

I know that people often talk about the Storm Bolter, but it isn't unique to the Terminator-armoured. It will have to undergo some considerations in order to compete with the Chaos Combi-Bolter, though.

 Charistoph wrote:

That would require a new sprue, I think. While Terminators could become a type of Jump Infantry ala the Grey Knight teleporters, I think the biggest problems with Terminators is that their firepower is rather one-dimensional or they are assault monsters. I do believe that the assault-based Terminators are fine in this regard, but would it hurt if the "Tactical Terminators" had more heavy options than a Flamer, Assault Cannon, or Missile Launcher?

Well, DW also get a plasma cannon. But I do admit a facelift on all of their heavy weapons would be nice (or at least something to make the assault cannon not the automatic choice). The heavy flamer is pretty easy, especially now that it isn't hamstrung by the small flamer template. Give it a range bump, convert its statline, and make it multi-damage like it used to be. Strength 5 got a decent boost this edition, -1 AP is a great boon against even heavy infantry (that used to ignore it) and dealing multiple wounds would make a lot of tougher units think twice. The assault cannon will probably remain pretty similar, 4 shots, S6, and AP -2 (since Rending appears to bump AP up by 1). The big question will be whether it is a multi-damage weapon like it used to be, or if it is going to one damage. Hell, it may even get some kind of unique special rule in addition to the base statline. And seeing the Cyclone Missile Launcher be something other than a Heavy 2 launcher would be a nice change. I mean, we're not getting our 12-shot limited ammo launcher back, but something on the unique side might be a nice change.

And for the DW, if the plasma cannon can become a decent weapon again then that will be a big boon as well.

But the heavy weapons haven't really been the main issue, the issue is that the rest of the squad puts out less fire than a tactical squad. For that, the storm bolter needs a face lift.

I know that people often talk about the Storm Bolter, but it isn't unique to the Terminator-armoured. It will have to undergo some considerations in order to compete with the Chaos Combi-Bolter, though.

Honestly, I still think the tactical terminators can be fixed with a simple upgrade to the Storm Bolter and giving everyone else that isn't a terminator a combi-bolter (which is what it used to be like back in 2nd).

From the sounds of it, the storm bolter will be getting some kind of upgrade (dropped a hint in one of the FB Q&A's) but we still don't know the nature of it. But if they make it more than just a twin bolter and in to the missing link between a heavy bolter and a boltgun then we are in business.

And as you said the storm bolter will need something what with the combi-bolter either becoming a twin bolter (i.e. Rapid Fire 2) or a combi-weapon (i.e. firing both boltguns at a -1 to hit). And if we still have distinctions between a sword, axe, and mace in close combat weapons, then I can't see them making a single category for various dual bolt weapons. Hell, maybe the storm bolter becomes a twin bolt rifle? Now wouldn't that be something (S4, AP -1, Rapid Fire 2 *drool*)?

But DW being one-trick ponies is more down to other factors:
1) Reliance on expensive Ravenwing Models to bring them in
2) Their most potent special rule being based on teleporting
3) Dreads and Land Raiders have been terrible for a long while and the DW actively lose out if they put anything other than Knights in a transport

The rest of the problems with the DW are down to endemic problems with terminators (that are hopefully, finally solved this edition). But the DW layer their own issues on to that, and most of the blame is squarely on GW designing them with Dualwing play in mind and nothing else. Making the DW so reliant on the RW to function properly not only killed mono-DW, but it also tended to kill interest in sprinkling DW in with battle company units. Basically, each time the DA got an update, it was mostly aimed at forcing them in to a singular play style and the DW suffered heavily from this because they relied on so many other units in the list to do their job (with the worst bit being that the units they relied on, Ravenwing, didn't really need the DW around to do anything).

Bottom line, DW shouldn't be focusing on a single thing anymore, especially now that null-deployment lists are against matched play rules. Seeing more viable variety if someone decides to run Deathwing would be a great thing.

 Ronin_eX wrote:
But DW being one-trick ponies is more down to other factors:

Since they are better Terminators, I do believe most of the problems are endemic to the Terminator side more than anything else.

 Ronin_eX wrote:
1) Reliance on expensive Ravenwing Models to bring them in

Not reliant, just better. They are no worse off here than any other Terminators. Indeed, aside from the expense, Ravenwing are better at the job than Scout Bikers.

 Ronin_eX wrote:
2) Their most potent special rule being based on teleporting

Not a problem if this continued, actually. Deep Striking is going to be a mid-game Infiltrate. That solves half their problems right there, especially with point 1. In fact, this is part of what makes them better than codex/Angel/Wolf Terminators in the first place.

 Ronin_eX wrote:
3) Dreads and Land Raiders have been terrible for a long while and the DW actively lose out if they put anything other than Knights in a transport

Nothing different from regular Terminators and Dreadnoughts here.

All things considered, I would enjoy seeing Belial get a "Veil of Darkness" ability for Deathwing Keyword units within 6" of him. It would address many of those very reserve issues you were thinking of, I think.

 Luciferian wrote:

ERJAK wrote:


First, it's outside of 9, important distinction. Second, not really. Only half your army can go into reserves in matched play anyway so you're limited to like 1000pts at most, which compared to current drop pod marines is nothing. Third, CC alpha lists are going to be incredibly unreliable with all of them having to make 9" charges.

Sure, but if units that currently have scout type rules will be keeping them then I'll be able to deploy all but three of my models outside that 9". That's closer than they could get in 7th.

? I'm sorry something got lost in translation. What does scout have to do with it? Even if they keep scout reserves come in in the movement phase and scout happens pregame (keeping with 7th) So it's not like you can deepstrike some scouts or w/e and then scout them forward.

ERJAK wrote:


? I'm sorry something got lost in translation. What does scout have to do with it? Even if they keep scout reserves come in in the movement phase and scout happens pregame (keeping with 7th) So it's not like you can deepstrike some scouts or w/e and then scout them forward.

Like I said earlier, I'm not basing this off of much. I also kind of brushed over the article. However, the rule example they give for the Trygon takes effect during deployment, not as a reserve coming onto the board during the movement phase. They actually don't mention any distance limitations for deep striking at all.

Of course, this could be merely a rule for this one unit, and infiltrating and deep striking could work completely differently, even on a case by case basis.

 Luciferian wrote:

ERJAK wrote:


? I'm sorry something got lost in translation. What does scout have to do with it? Even if they keep scout reserves come in in the movement phase and scout happens pregame (keeping with 7th) So it's not like you can deepstrike some scouts or w/e and then scout them forward.

Like I said earlier, I'm not basing this off of much. I also kind of brushed over the article. However, the rule example they give for the Trygon takes effect during deployment, not as a reserve coming onto the board during the movement phase. They actually don't mention any distance limitations for deep striking at all.

Of course, this could be merely a rule for this one unit, and infiltrating and deep striking could work completely differently, even on a case by case basis.

The Trygon rule takes place in deployment and during the game.

1st: During Deployment, you place a <HIVE FLEET> Troops unit in the tunnel with the Trygon. This is almost like a Drop Pod/Mycetic Spore.
2nd: During the game at the end of a Movement Phase (by the third), you place the Trygon over 9" from any enemy unit, and the Troops unit is over 9" from any enemy unit and wholly within 3" of the Trygon.

So, this is nothing like Scout, which is wholly within Deployment and (currently) carries zero restrictions of range distance.

Null deploys are dead, and GW has killed them!

I'm really excited by the new rules for the Trygon's tunnel, and looking forward to the possibilities Genestealers and a Broodlord for a devastating assault, Termagants with Devourers for a bucketload of shooting...

 Charistoph wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:

ERJAK wrote:


? I'm sorry something got lost in translation. What does scout have to do with it? Even if they keep scout reserves come in in the movement phase and scout happens pregame (keeping with 7th) So it's not like you can deepstrike some scouts or w/e and then scout them forward.

Like I said earlier, I'm not basing this off of much. I also kind of brushed over the article. However, the rule example they give for the Trygon takes effect during deployment, not as a reserve coming onto the board during the movement phase. They actually don't mention any distance limitations for deep striking at all.

Of course, this could be merely a rule for this one unit, and infiltrating and deep striking could work completely differently, even on a case by case basis.

The Trygon rule takes place in deployment and during the game.

1st: During Deployment, you place a <HIVE FLEET> Troops unit in the tunnel with the Trygon. This is almost like a Drop Pod/Mycetic Spore.
2nd: During the game at the end of a Movement Phase (by the third), you place the Trygon over 9" from any enemy unit, and the Troops unit is over 9" from any enemy unit and wholly within 3" of the Trygon.

So, this is nothing like Scout, which is wholly within Deployment and (currently) carries zero restrictions of range distance.

Yea, it's more of a mid battle Infiltrate. With a touch of "HQ sharing rules".

Guys, I think I've missed one crucial information in the article: does it say how units enter from reserves? They mentioned units that don't enter from Reserves by turn 3 are destroyed - but how can I determine if a unit enters or not? Still a die roll?

 Vector Strike wrote:
Guys, I think I've missed one crucial information in the article: does it say how units enter from reserves? They mentioned units that don't enter from Reserves by turn 3 are destroyed - but how can I determine if a unit enters or not? Still a die roll?

Each unit will have its own way of coming from reserve.
The Tyrgon comes at the end of any movement phase (player's choice), by a no-scatter deep-strike, without rolling any dice.

Other units might need a die roll, might only come at T2+, etc. We can only guess at this point.

fresus wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
Guys, I think I've missed one crucial information in the article: does it say how units enter from reserves? They mentioned units that don't enter from Reserves by turn 3 are destroyed - but how can I determine if a unit enters or not? Still a die roll?

Each unit will have its own way of coming from reserve.
The Tyrgon comes at the end of any movement phase (player's choice), by a no-scatter deep-strike, without rolling any dice.

Other units might need a die roll, might only come at T2+, etc. We can only guess at this point.

thanks!

Personally liking this myself. Assault from deep strike is vital to so many units bring actually usable. I also like that they're killing null deploy. I'm hopeful that some lists that want to do stuff like null deploy can instead pre turn 1 deep strike to get their half of units on board.

HaussVonHorne wrote:
So an all pod, null deploy army is completely invalidated? So GW said I could still play with all my models (drop pods), but not really...

Well I think I have to just sell my whole pod army and start something else or just quit. I love having a variety of choices in how to enjoy this great game.

Your models are all probably still valid....you'll just need to add another half as many units that need to start on the board

I really don't like rolling to come in at all. It's good to see some big important units won't need to as well as the ability to effect another unit with that. Still makes me feel like whatever units will have to roll will be the unlucky few.

Drop pods are awsome but spamming 1 thing for an entire army is not. I think it is cool to watch 5 drop pods crash all over the board but thats a narrative game not a matched one. marines have the largest variation of models to choose from; find somthing to put down for deployment. Could even pick up a fortification for that matter.

For those who didn't catch it, the recent live Q&A confirmed that nothing overrides Tactical Reserves, so don't go hoping that your Drop Pods or Deathwing Terminators can null-deploy.


Also Drop Pods are confirmed to work like Trygons when it comes to the distance both it and its embarked unit needs to keep away from enemy units (over 9").

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
For those who didn't catch it, the recent live Q&A confirmed that nothing overrides Tactical Reserves, so don't go hoping that your Drop Pods or Deathwing Terminators can null-deploy.


Also Drop Pods are confirmed to work like Trygons when it comes to the distance both it and its embarked unit needs to keep away from enemy units (over 9").

Does this mean that you can charge from drop pods, since they have this restriction?

 Marmatag wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
For those who didn't catch it, the recent live Q&A confirmed that nothing overrides Tactical Reserves, so don't go hoping that your Drop Pods or Deathwing Terminators can null-deploy.


Also Drop Pods are confirmed to work like Trygons when it comes to the distance both it and its embarked unit needs to keep away from enemy units (over 9").

Does this mean that you can charge from drop pods, since they have this restriction?

They didn't say either way, so I can't say for sure.

Unless their rules states otherwise - or the transport rules disallow charging out of moving transports, and deploying Drop Pods from reserves counts as moving - they definitely can, though.

Overall, I love this change as it makes armies with heavy Reserves viable (I.e. less reliant on luck) yet prevents an over abuse on Reserves (such as null deployment). It's a good example of balance.

For reserves to be called "reserves" it should imply that a portion of you force already has a significant presence on the battlefield to call in such 'reserves". Ergo, having to deploy at least half your units makes perfect sense no matter how "fluffy" you think it is to null deploy.

And it makes perfect sense for those reserves to come in when and where you need them.

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