Word is that explosions were at the end of an Ariana Grande concert in Manchester. Reports are sketchy at the moment but some are saying there are fatalities. Whether this is from the explosions or from the panicked crowd isn't clear.
I feel for our British brothers and sisters. I wish we lived in a society where things like this never happened, however sadly this is not the case. I hope for a quick find on those responsible, and even quicker justice to be carried out. God's speed to the investigators.
Broadly speaking, I'd recommend following the BBC news rather than Sky News or your typical other companies. Unlike other 'news' sources, the BBC would tend to wait until they have confirmation rather than saying whatever pops into their heads at any particular moment.
Don't forget we're living in a world of 24 hour newsertainment now.
Let's hope the guys working the CC footage have keen eyes and can backtrack these guys before they can get out of the country. No telling how long a head start they may have.
"Nineteen people have been killed and about 50 injured in a suspected terror attack at Manchester Arena.
The blast happened at about 22:35 BST on Monday following a pop concert by the US singer Ariana Grande.
The cause is unknown but PM Theresa May said her thoughts were with those affected by "what is being treated by the police as an appalling terrorist attack".
British Transport Police said the explosion was in the arena's foyer.
BBC Home Affairs Correspondent Daniel Sandford said senior counter-terrorism officers were assembling in London and liaising with the Home Office.
Unconfirmed reports from two unnamed US officials suggested the attack was carried out by a suicide bomber.
The BBC's Tim Ashburner, who is at the scene, spoke to some volunteer paramedics who treated the injured for "shrapnel-like injuries".
Shortly after the blast Manchester Victoria station, which is close to the concert venue, was closed and all trains cancelled.
Greater Manchester Police carried out a precautionary controlled explosion in the Cathedral Garden area of the city at about 01:32. The force confirmed it was not a suspicious item.
Prime Minister Theresa May has said her thoughts are with the victims and families of those affected in "what is being treated by the police as an appalling terrorist attack".
Greater Manchester metro mayor Andy Burnham said: "My heart goes out to families who have lost loved ones, my admiration to our brave emergency services. "A terrible night for our great city."
Screaming and running'
A number of eyewitnesses have described the confusion in the aftermath.
Andy Holey, who had gone to the arena to pick up his wife and daughter who had been at the concert, said: "As I was waiting, an explosion went off and it threw me about 30ft from one set of doors to the other set of doors.
"When I got up I saw bodies lying on the ground. My first thought was to go into the arena to try to find my family.
"When I couldn't find them, I went outside with the police and fire and looked through some of the bodies to try and find my wife and daughter.
"I managed to find them eventually and they're OK.
"It was definitely an explosion and it was some force. It happened near the box office at the entrance to the Arena."
Emma Johnson said she and her husband were at the arena to pick up their daughters, aged 15 and 17.
"It was definitely a bomb. It was definitely in the foyer," she told BBC Radio Manchester.
"We were stood at the top of the stairs and the glass exploded - it was near to where they were selling the merchandise.
"The whole building shook. There was a blast and then a flash of fire afterwards. There were bodies everywhere."
At the scene: Tom Mullen BBC News
The police activity around the arena has been huge. There are blue flashing lights and cordons seemingly on almost every street corner.
A wide area around the venue itself has been completely taped off, and the crime scene appears to be widening, with police pushing people further and further back.
I've spoken to people who are shaken, scared and often tearful. One thing that's apparent is there are many, many young people, some of them with parents or guardians. One mother told me her priority was simply to get her daughters home.
Other people have been more candid and have described seeing people covered in blood, or being treated by paramedics. There's still a huge sense of confusion and people are constantly searching for information while letting their families know they're safe.
Josh Elliott, speaking to BBC Radio 5 Live, said he was shocked by news of the fatalities.
"A bang went off and everyone stopped and screamed... we basically hit the deck," he said
"It was bedlam… it was horrific.
"We got up when we thought it was safe and got out as quickly as possible.
"People were just crying and in tears... police cars were everywhere.
"We just wanted to get out as quickly as possible because we didn't know what was going on."
The background - Ian Youngs, BBC News entertainment reporter
Manchester Arena, formerly known as the MEN Arena, is the biggest indoor venue in the city with a capacity of around 18,000 for concerts.
The arena foyer connects with Victoria train and tram station, a major hub on the northern edge of the city centre.
The arena regularly hosts concerts by major stars like Ariana Grande - a 23-year-old American TV teen actress-turned-pop star.
She's a big draw for young fans, with hits including Problem, featuring Iggy Azalea, which hit number one in the UK in 2014; and Side To Side, featuring Nicki Minaj, which reached number four last year.
She's currently on a European tour - she's already played Birmingham and Dublin and is due to be at the O2 Arena in London on Wednesday and Thursday.
Michelle Sullivan, from Huddersfield, was attending the concert with her daughters, aged 12 and 15.
"It was really scary," she said. "Just as the lights have gone down we heard a really loud explosion... Everybody screamed.
"When we got out they just said 'keep on running, keep on running'."
Pat Carney, Manchester City Council's spokesman for the city centre, said the city's thoughts were with the families of those killed and injured.
"It's a very easy target - a concert hall where young people are enjoying music," he said.
"The public are really co-operating by staying away from what is basically now a crime site.
"The world we live in, police and the council have emergency procedures that we practise all the time.
"Obviously everyone in the city is shocked, having seen how young some of these people are
"The police are treating it as a live site, we don't know if this is the end or there are other incidents in that area... we don't know at the moment."
Within an hour of reports of the incident emerging, people began offering spare rooms and beds to people stranded in the city using the hashtag #RoomForManchester.
Hundreds of tweets offering places to stay are being shared and re-tweeted thousands of times."
Given the performer I think it is safe to assume that many of those killed and injured are teenage girls
Hope the sick feth who did this is rotting in hell right now.
Glad to see the locals stepping up to the plate. Brits have dealt with this kind of thing for a long time. We're quite proficient at stubbornly carrying on.
Those terrorist types never miss a trick do they? We'll have to see if it was ISIS or someone else behind this. Whoever it turns out being, I hope they are caught and killed for what they've done.
My condolences to the families of the victims. Truly a heartbreaking tragedy.
Absolutely awful. My girls (and me too embarrassedly) are Ariana Grande fans. I can imagine the horror if this would have happened at the United Center after enjoying a wonderful concert... My condolences to those parents mourning the loss of a child at the concert tonight.
Those terrorist types never miss a trick do they? We'll have to see if it was ISIS or someone else behind this. Whoever it turns out being, I hope they are caught and killed for what they've done.
My condolences to the families of the victims. Truly a heartbreaking tragedy.
Thing is, it's likely a lone nutter. But then Daesh will claim the credit on account that's what they do.
If me stubbing my toe tomorrow morning was somehow headline news, Daesh would claim that. If your morning cuppa doesn't taste quite right, then you realise you used the decaff, it'd be Daesh behind that too. That's how they do it. Something happens, they say they're behind it. And our idiot press lap it up and regurgitate.
As ever my thoughts are with the victims, survivors and their families. This is something horrific.
But, it's the first major successful attempt in nearly 12 years.
So I once again the nutter fringe - reall? Is that all you've got? Is that really going to bring down 'The West' and usher in an age of the most unhinged interepretation of Islam? Is it? Or is it just going to see you killed because some lunatic said stuff online you chose to listen to?
It doesn't surprise me anymore what lengths gakkers will go to push their twattish agenda on people. feth them.
My thoughts are with the families of the victims. Knowing that singers fan base, it's undeniable that many victims could be youngsters. Hopefully they will be at peace.
As for the dick who did it, if he is dead - I really hope he is being roasted with brimstone and pitchforks. If not and he is arrested, I hope he spends the rest if his life being the bitch of some Nick bent psychopath who turns his arsehole into a donut and forces him to call him daddy. Good enough for the fether I say.
Freddy Kruger wrote: As for the dick who did it, if he is dead - I really hope he is being roasted with brimstone and pitchforks. If not and he is arrested, I hope he spends the rest if his life being the bitch of some Nick bent psychopath who turns his arsehole into a donut and forces him to call him daddy. Good enough for the fether I say.
Nothing weird at all about this oddly specific torture fantasy.
That's really a shame.
Problem is in UK, France and Belgium they have their terrorists already in the country, first or second generation.
In Germany, they came from abroad one or two years ago.
Can't tell you what is better.
All the past 3-4 potential and successful attacks have targeted south and London.
Security would be lighter up north likely as everyone's made fortress London.
Its sadly a bomb plot, this has to go deeper than one person.
Someone had to teach, or help, or something to make this happen. Anyone can buy a knife, but build a bomb, no this is more advanced.
wuestenfux wrote: That's really a shame.
Problem is in UK, France and Belgium they have their terrorists already in the country, first or second generation.
In Germany, they came from abroad one or two years ago.
Can't tell you what is better.
Nothing is better all terrorist attacks are a waste of lives, and are senseless, my thoughts to anyone involved.
wuestenfux wrote: That's really a shame.
Problem is in UK, France and Belgium they have their terrorists already in the country, first or second generation.
In Germany, they came from abroad one or two years ago.
Can't tell you what is better.
Nothing is better all terrorist attacks are a waste of lives, and are senseless, my thoughts to anyone involved.
You can deport foreigners, those born here we have to work out what to do with dangerous people doe the rest of there lives. That's a complicated problem.
jhe90 wrote: All the past 3-4 potential and successful attacks have targeted south and London.
Security would be lighter up north likely as everyone's made fortress London.
Its sadly a bomb plot, this has to go deeper than one person.
Someone had to teach, or help, or something to make this happen. Anyone can buy a knife, but build a bomb, no this is more advanced.
Sad morning. We wake up to these gakholes.
Building a bomb our of a pressure cooker and filling it with shrapnel is not that hard, and there's plenty of web pages with all the information needed. Breivik didn't need help to make his 2-ton monster bomb, for instance.
It's sick and cowardly enough to target innocent people of any sort...but children? WTF, any ideology that would drive someone to this madness must be rotten and depraved to the core.
I don't understand why there is a thread about this on this forum, i mean did you do threads too for paris attacks (wasn't on the forum yet so i don't know).
little-killer wrote: I don't understand why there is a thread about this on this forum, i mean did you do threads too for paris attacks (wasn't on the forum yet so i don't know).
There were extensive threads on Paris attacks.
This is the off-topic forum, there is no reason why we shouldn't be able to discuss this event here.
little-killer wrote: I don't understand why there is a thread about this on this forum, i mean did you do threads too for paris attacks (wasn't on the forum yet so i don't know).
We have had threads for all the French terror attacks. I hope and pray that there will be no more threads in future about terrorism in France.
Sure we can carry on as normal. And we can do the same after the next one. And the next one after that. And the next one after that. But when do we decide that enough is enough and actually do something about it? Because I for one am sick of it.
Twenty-two people have been killed and 59 injured in a suicide bombing at Manchester Arena at the end of a concert by US singer Ariana Grande.
A lone attacker set off a homemade bomb in the foyer at 22:33 BST on Monday, in what Theresa May called an "appalling, sickening" terrorist act.
Armed police have arrested a 23-year-old man in Chorlton, south Manchester, in connection with the attack.
The first victim has been named as college student Georgina Callander.
The teenager, believed to have been 18, was studying health and social care at Runshaw College in Leyland, Lancashire.
Victim Georgina Callander was pictured with singer Ariana Grande two years ago
In a statement in Downing Street, the prime minister said it was "now beyond doubt that the people of Manchester and of this country have fallen victim to a callous terrorist attack" that targeted "defenceless young people".
She said the security services believe they know the attacker's identity but are not yet able to confirm it.
It is the worst terrorist attack in the UK since the 7 July bombings in 2005 in which 52 people were killed by four suicide bombers.
So-called Islamic State has said it was behind the attack, via IS channels on the messaging app Telegram.
What we know so far
Sixty ambulances went to Manchester Arena after the attack and those wounded are being treated at eight hospitals around the city.
Relatives are using social media to hunt for missing loved ones, and an emergency number - 0161 856 9400 - has been set up.
Greater Manchester Police Chief Constable Ian Hopkins said it was "the most horrific incident" the city had ever faced, and the "fast-moving investigation" was now working to establish whether the attacker "was acting alone or as part of a network".
In other developments:
The explosion happened shortly after Ariana Grande left the stage and afterwards the 23-year-old actress-turned-singer, tweeted: "broken. from the bottom of my heart, i am so so sorry. i don't have words"
Flags are flying at half mast outside Number 10 and political parties have suspended general election campaigning.
Theresa May has chaired a meeting of the government's emergency Cobra committee and is expected to travel to Manchester later
London Mayor Sadiq Khan said the police presence in the capital would be stepped up
World leaders have expressed solidarity with the UK, including US President Donald Trump, who called those responsible "evil losers".
Exam boards are telling schools directly affected by the attack that they can re-arrange GCSE and A-level exams in the wake of the attack
Police have established a help centre at Manchester City's Etihad Stadium, access Gate 11, for anyone who needs assistance in tracing loved ones
The Queen has expressed her "deepest sympathy" with all those affected, adding that "the whole nation has been shocked by the death and injury"
The Arndale shopping centre in Manchester was briefly evacuated earlier, but has now reopened. A man has been arrested in connection with an incident there
Eyewitnesses at the arena described seeing metal nuts and bolts among the debris, and spoke about the fear and confusion that gripped concert-goers.
Andy Holey, who had gone to the arena to pick up his wife and daughter, said: "An explosion went off and it threw me about 30ft from one set of doors to the other set of doors."
Emma Johnson, who went to pick up her children, aged 15 and 17, told BBC Radio Manchester: "The whole building shook. There was a blast and then a flash of fire afterwards. There were bodies everywhere."
Teenager Abigail Walker, who was at the concert, told the BBC: "I had to make sure I had my sister. I grabbed hold of her and pulled hard. Everyone was running and crying.
"It was absolutely terrifying."
'I looked for my family among the bodies'
Confusion and chaos after explosion
Father's desperate plea to find daughter
Charlotte Campbell's daughter Olivia is among those who have been missing since the concert.
"She's only a 15-year-old girl, she's out there on her own because her friend has been found," she told the BBC.
Analysis: Gordon Corera, BBC security correspondent
The UK threat level has been judged to be severe for nearly three years - which means an attack is considered highly likely.
But in recent months the tempo of counter terrorist activity has been increasing with - on average - an arrest every day.
After the attack in Westminster by Khalid Masood in March, police and security officials have been warning that further attacks were almost inevitable.
But they also believed that those were more likely to be low-tech involving knives or vehicles. The fact that the Manchester attack involved explosives will worry them.
It may not have been at the level of complexity seen in Paris in 2015, when multiple attackers sent from Syria used guns and suicide belts, but it will still have required planning.
Read more from home affairs correspondent Dominic Casciani
The blast happened close to the entrance to Victoria railway and tram station. The station has been closed and all trains cancelled.
Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham said the city would "pull together", adding: "That's what we are. That's what we do. They won't win."
The Manchester Arena or MEN is the city's largest indoor venue with a concert capacity of about 21,000.
There is talk of suspending our Election campaign for a few days. I think this is wrong. We can't roll up the white flag to terrorism.
It may have more to do with not having assets for both the investigation and to provide proper security with an increased threat.
That is true, but on the other hand, we need to send out the powerful message that we won't be running for the hills.
Many have tried to break the spirit of the British people. None have succeeded. We won't hide away from these
It should be business as usual, whilst mourning for the dead...
Taking a couple or three days to un feth yourselves and get the right security measures in place and ensure your resourcing the investigation and subsequent raids sends a powerful message, that you're gov't is smart enough to do stuff right rather than half ass it for the sake of 'not giving in to terror!'
Having election activities blown up and enduring more casualties isn't worth 'keeping on as normal'.
Now, if your gov't has a crap ton of excess resources sitting around waiting for something like this and you can get everything mobilized in minutes, go for it. I suspect it takes a bit of time though (having been involved in planning stuff like that).
Nostromodamus wrote: Of course Do'uche claimed responsibility. They cling to every terrorist action they can in an attempt to appear more powerful than they are.
Or, they rightfully understand that providing motivation and knowledge enabling others to commit acts like this is a strategy that clearly works for them.
Future War Cultist wrote: Sure we can carry on as normal. And we can do the same after the next one. And the next one after that. And the next one after that. But when do we decide that enough is enough and actually do something about it? Because I for one am sick of it.
There are no easy answers to this problem. It's going to be long, it will be a hard road, and it will take many years to solve.
Future War Cultist wrote: Sure we can carry on as normal. And we can do the same after the next one. And the next one after that. And the next one after that. But when do we decide that enough is enough and actually do something about it? Because I for one am sick of it.
There are no easy answers to this problem. It's going to be long, it will be a hard road, and it will take many years to solve.
Which is why sometimes you need an 'operational pause' to get your gak in order.
Nostromodamus wrote: Of course Do'uche claimed responsibility. They cling to every terrorist action they can in an attempt to appear more powerful than they are.
Or, they rightfully understand that providing motivation and knowledge enabling others to commit acts like this is a strategy that clearly works for them.
True, they certainly do influence some, but they would lay claim to a wet fart in the house of lords if they thought it would bolster their image.
There is talk of suspending our Election campaign for a few days. I think this is wrong. We can't roll up the white flag to terrorism.
It may have more to do with not having assets for both the investigation and to provide proper security with an increased threat.
That is true, but on the other hand, we need to send out the powerful message that we won't be running for the hills.
Many have tried to break the spirit of the British people. None have succeeded. We won't hide away from these
It should be business as usual, whilst mourning for the dead...
Taking a couple or three days to un feth yourselves and get the right security measures in place and ensure your resourcing the investigation and subsequent raids sends a powerful message, that you're gov't is smart enough to do stuff right rather than half ass it for the sake of 'not giving in to terror!'
Having election activities blown up and enduring more casualties isn't worth 'keeping on as normal'.
Now, if your gov't has a crap ton of excess resources sitting around waiting for something like this and you can get everything mobilized in minutes, go for it. I suspect it takes a bit of time though (having been involved in planning stuff like that).
Manchester suffered a lot of attacks in the days of the IRA bombing campaign back in the 1980s, so the Manchester Police has some expertise in this area.
I agree, that the fightback and the security operation needs to be smart, and handled well, but a balance needs to be struck.
For example, there are remote parts of the UK that are highly unlikely to suffer this kind of attack, but even they are affected by this campaign pause.
If terrorists attacked New York, should the political campaign stop in say, Arizona, or Alaska?
I respect your viewpoint and the expertise of your military background on this subject
but in my mind, the show must go on, otherwise those win
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Nostromodamus wrote: Of course Do'uche claimed responsibility. They cling to every terrorist action they can in an attempt to appear more powerful than they are.
Exactly. Every time somebody slips on a banana skin, ISIS claims responsibility for it.
They claim responsibility, because very often when they do they are responsible.
When their main method of attack outside of theater is inspiring this type of act, providing knowledge and motivation and when the perps admit using that knowledge and motivation and pledge to DaIsh, it is hard to think they are not responsible in a very real way. You can minimize it all you want, poke fun as long as you want. That does not diminish the fact that DaIsh expends a lot of resources directed specifically towards getting folks to commit acts like this.
little-killer wrote: I don't understand why there is a thread about this on this forum, i mean did you do threads too for paris attacks (wasn't on the forum yet so i don't know).
Go check the Off Topic history.
There is a long history of making threads about terrorist attacks, lone gunmen, and similar threads.
There also used to be a large ISIS thread that had these events rolled into it, but discussion there got heated and the thread was locked.
little earlier this morning, ISIS claimed credit for the attack, which certainly adds credence to the suspicions of investigators that more than one lone wolf could be part of this massacre:
While it may seem like a given, ISIS tends to be particular about claiming credit for attacks. They don’t usually claim credit for every lone-wolf attack unless they have at least some connection to the perpetrator.
There is talk of suspending our Election campaign for a few days. I think this is wrong. We can't roll up the white flag to terrorism.
It may have more to do with not having assets for both the investigation and to provide proper security with an increased threat.
Also the PM is to borrow a term, a command authority in UK. Harsh as it sounds we could better cope with loss of opposition than loss of PM or senior cabinet. The protection round her would have to be increased and that's a drain on resources that could be better put to use in investigating and preventing other attacks for next few days. Also as PM we need our government in a leadership mode not campaign mode right now.
All in all the choice is a fair one to suspend campaign in national intrest, get security solid, get suspects and act in the best intrest of protecting UK citizens, one of the main and most important duties of our leaders.
Nostromodamus wrote: Of course Do'uche claimed responsibility. They cling to every terrorist action they can in an attempt to appear more powerful than they are.
That's because that is the type of terrorism they use. Think of it like a franchise. They provide information/intelligence/logistics/training/support, and then get to claim credit.
Prayers out to Manchester. Heart broken, I have children from 17 yo down to 15 months, do not want to imagine what families are going through right now.
Later it is proven that the blast during Ariana Grande is the works of ISIS.... Why choose her concert tour and not anyone else? Does Ariana Grande has Jewish ancestry or a follower of Judaism? or does she upholds any Anti-Muslim or Islamophobia mentality/ideology or say anything bad about Islam or ... specifically ISIS?
Lone Cat wrote: Later it is proven that the blast during Ariana Grande is the works of ISIS.... Why choose her concert tour and not anyone else? Does Ariana Grande has Jewish ancestry or a follower of Judaism? or does she upholds any Anti-Muslim or Islamophobia mentality/ideology or say anything bad about Islam or ... specifically ISIS?
Not necessarily.
Likely they just completed the explosive device and her concert was the next "soft target" with lots of people. The bomber(s) likely scouted that venue, and others, and was waiting for an opportunity.
There's people putting up fake missing persons stuff on Facebook, and already an 'RIP' group for one of the victims which almost certainly (on account I suspect they're in no fit state) isn't founded by friends or family of the victim.
Lone Cat wrote: Later it is proven that the blast during Ariana Grande is the works of ISIS.... Why choose her concert tour and not anyone else? Does Ariana Grande has Jewish ancestry or a follower of Judaism? or does she upholds any Anti-Muslim or Islamophobia mentality/ideology or say anything bad about Islam or ... specifically ISIS?
Not necessarily.
Likely they just completed the explosive device and her concert was the next "soft target" with lots of people. The bomber(s) likely scouted that venue, and others, and was waiting for an opportunity.
Pretty much this.
Remember, we're not facing a global organisation. It's merely a group of unhinged individuals egging each other on - and many of their 'agents' were simply angry young men taken in by poisonous ideals.
I don't know how we tackle it as a society, both national and international. But I'm pretty sure those quick to paint all Muslims (if indeed it is Islamist terrorism) as equally guilty are just playing into the 'us vs them, the inevitable holy war' narrative.
Lone Cat wrote: Later it is proven that the blast during Ariana Grande is the works of ISIS.... Why choose her concert tour and not anyone else? Does Ariana Grande has Jewish ancestry or a follower of Judaism? or does she upholds any Anti-Muslim or Islamophobia mentality/ideology or say anything bad about Islam or ... specifically ISIS?
Because terrorists attack random targets. Simplistically it makes people feel unsafe and that generates fear (and for some hatred) of certain groups of people (it's a naturally evolved trait). That divides communities/countries along whatever those divisions are perceived to be. The intolerance frustrates more people and that can drive more people into the 'arms' of groups like ISIS and the whole cycle begins again. It's a calculated strategy by leaders of groups like ISIS to use people so that they can change who is in charge to being themselves.
We've been killing each over similar issues for thousands of years and it's not likely to change any time soon. The only difference now is that the weapons are by far more powerful than swords and spears.
I felt sick at all the news in General, pathetic crime pathetic perpetrator, will achieve nothing , will change nothing, apart from affect some families I feel for them.
Lone Cat wrote: Later it is proven that the blast during Ariana Grande is the works of ISIS.... Why choose her concert tour and not anyone else? Does Ariana Grande has Jewish ancestry or a follower of Judaism? or does she upholds any Anti-Muslim or Islamophobia mentality/ideology or say anything bad about Islam or ... specifically ISIS?
Not necessarily.
Likely they just completed the explosive device and her concert was the next "soft target" with lots of people. The bomber(s) likely scouted that venue, and others, and was waiting for an opportunity.
Pretty much this.
Remember, we're not facing a global organisation. It's merely a group of unhinged individuals egging each other on - and many of their 'agents' were simply angry young men taken in by poisonous ideals.
I don't know how we tackle it as a society, both national and international. But I'm pretty sure those quick to paint all Muslims (if indeed it is Islamist terrorism) as equally guilty are just playing into the 'us vs them, the inevitable holy war' narrative.
Unfortunately, we are in a holy war whether we want to be or not.
Remember, we're not facing a global organisation. It's merely a group of unhinged individuals egging each other on - and many of their 'agents' were simply angry young men taken in by poisonous ideals.
I think this is a dangerous assumption to make. It might not be global in the traditional sense, but there is still a structure and hierarchy and people at the top with twisted goals of regime change.
Remember, we're not facing a global organisation. It's merely a group of unhinged individuals egging each other on - and many of their 'agents' were simply angry young men taken in by poisonous ideals.
I think this is a dangerous assumption to make. It might not be global in the traditional sense, but there is still a structure and hierarchy and people at the top with twisted goals of regime change.
With extremely limited means.
Look at it this way. This is the first serious incident in the U.K. since 2005. 12 years of failure and being stopped.
They're not the threat they like to make out. They stand absolutely no chance of 'regime change'. There numbers are extremely limited. In fact based on the estimation of global security services, actual Islamist Militants are something like a fraction of 1% of the Muslim population of the world.
They're a danger, but not a threat. To give them that much credence is to do them a service.
Remember. Security services need to be on the ball all the time. Those insane enough to do something like this need only be lucky once.
As a country, we've had far, far worse. I work bloody close to one of the last atrocities of the IRA. My brother and I were once at London Bridge station mere hours before a bomb went off there. I wasn't scared then. And I'm not scared now.
Lone Cat wrote: Later it is proven that the blast during Ariana Grande is the works of ISIS.... Why choose her concert tour and not anyone else? Does Ariana Grande has Jewish ancestry or a follower of Judaism? or does she upholds any Anti-Muslim or Islamophobia mentality/ideology or say anything bad about Islam or ... specifically ISIS?
I've read one argument online that the concert was targeted because it would have lots of women and children present (Grande's fan base).
Not saying I agree with the argument (I can't stand the author), but given ISIS' issues with women and female sexuality it is plausible.
That strongly implies they believe he had accomplices who may be in a position to strike in the immediate future. Might be a good week to avoid obvious target locations where possible.
Ketara wrote: That strongly implies they believe he had accomplices who may be in a position to strike in the immediate future. Might be a good week to avoid obvious target locations where possible.
Or not. If you take precautions and avoid places you want to go you are letting the Bad Guys Win, or so I've been told.
On a serious note, I wonder if the increased threat posture is due to actual intel gathered from recent raids/other intel sources or if it is just precaution based on this attack.
Either way, I hope the UK law enforcement and intel guys are able to break up anything else that may be coming up.
Ketara wrote: That strongly implies they believe he had accomplices who may be in a position to strike in the immediate future. Might be a good week to avoid obvious target locations where possible.
Or not. If you take precautions and avoid places you want to go you are letting the Bad Guys Win, or so I've been told.
On a serious note, I wonder if the increased threat posture is due to actual intel gathered from recent raids/other intel sources or if it is just precaution based on this attack.
Either way, I hope the UK law enforcement and intel guys are able to break up anything else that may be coming up.
Given this comes after they searched suspects home, and made arrests...
Sadly likely they don,t think he was entirely alone.
As a country, we've had far, far worse. I work bloody close to one of the last atrocities of the IRA. My brother and I were once at London Bridge station mere hours before a bomb went off there. I wasn't scared then. And I'm not scared now.
As whole, while the IRA may not have been too concerned with collateral, women and children generally weren't their primary targets in these attacks.
CptJake wrote: If you take precautions and avoid places you want to go you are letting the Bad Guys Win, or so I've been told.
Feel free to let the possible, unknown future actions of a terrorist dictate what you do.
Me? I'll carry on doing what I damn well please and to hell with them. Most Brits I know have the same mindset.
Though I usually agree with you on most topics, I guess we just differ on that philosophy.
I guess so. I used to do threat assessments and risk assessments for a living. In my experience it is plain dumb to NOT mitigate against risks and work towards avoiding or eliminating threats. I fully expect the UK gov't to take my position, and their actions so far support that opinion.
There's 'Keep Calm and Carry On' and then there's keeping an vague eye out for your personal safety the next few days whilst the government has publicly stated that there's an extremely high risk of another attack and deployed 5,000 troops on the streets. The two aren't mutually exclusive, and only a fool would equate the latter to 'letting the terrorists win'.
Nobody's saying to call in ill at work for fear of the big bad unknown. But in the same way you don't walk down large dark alleys in Brixton with strangely hooded men at 1am, it might be an idea to avoid obvious targets if not too much of an inconvenience for an appropriate time period whilst this is ongoing, the troops are on the streets, and a clearer picture is emerging.
CptJake wrote: If you take precautions and avoid places you want to go you are letting the Bad Guys Win, or so I've been told.
Feel free to let the possible, unknown future actions of a terrorist dictate what you do.
Me? I'll carry on doing what I damn well please and to hell with them. Most Brits I know have the same mindset.
Though I usually agree with you on most topics, I guess we just differ on that philosophy.
I guess so. I used to do threat assessments and risk assessments for a living. In my experience it is plain dumb to NOT mitigate against risks and work towards avoiding or eliminating threats. I fully expect the UK gov't to take my position, and their actions so far support that opinion.
Well it never hurts to take certain precautions and remain vigilant/observant, but to "avoid places you want to go" is a bit much for me.
Ketara wrote: There's 'Keep Calm and Carry On' and then there's keeping an vague eye out for your personal safety the next few days whilst the government has publicly stated that there's an extremely high risk of another attack and deployed 5,000 troops on the streets. The two aren't mutually exclusive, and only a fool would equate the latter to 'letting the terrorists win'.
Nobody's saying to call in ill at work for fear of the big bad unknown. But in the same way you don't walk down large dark alleys in Brixton with strangely hooded men at 1am, it might be an idea to avoid obvious targets if not too much of an inconvenience for an appropriate time period whilst this is ongoing, the troops are on the streets, and a clearer picture is emerging.
The level has been taken to Critical and they are not hiding they are worried.
Taking care is not letting them win but taking some precautions to keeping yourself safe n alive.
A few inconveniences for a week or so are worth not losing life or limb.
I'm not so shortsighted as to forget that the last time we hit critical (the London Car Bombings in 2007), there was a second linked incident the following day (at Glasgow Airport). I trust that if the police have gone up to critical and the troops have deployed, there's a damn good reason for it.
Naturally though, people are free to shove their children into high-risk zones to 'stick it to the terrorists'. Free country and all that.
Ketara wrote: There's 'Keep Calm and Carry On' and then there's keeping an vague eye out for your personal safety the next few days whilst the government has publicly stated that there's an extremely high risk of another attack and deployed 5,000 troops on the streets. The two aren't mutually exclusive, and only a fool would equate the latter to 'letting the terrorists win'.
Nobody's saying to call in ill at work for fear of the big bad unknown. But in the same way you don't walk down large dark alleys in Brixton with strangely hooded men at 1am, it might be an idea to avoid obvious targets if not too much of an inconvenience for an appropriate time period whilst this is ongoing, the troops are on the streets, and a clearer picture is emerging.
This guy gets it.
Be prudent guys... be safe... but do carry on with your lives.
Future War Cultist wrote: Sure we can carry on as normal. And we can do the same after the next one. And the next one after that. And the next one after that. But when do we decide that enough is enough and actually do something about it? Because I for one am sick of it.
You up for tanks and soldiers everywhere guns open? Security checks everywhere? Your internet, phone calls etc constantly monitored? Cuts and tax increases to fund all the workers needed for that surveilance plus heavy upscale of military and police force required?
And of course even that won't be bullet proof. Hard to stop somebody willing to exchanes his life to others.
The Home Secretary has said odds are, Abedi wasn't acting alone. What that means is that at least one other person was involved, and judging by some other reports I've seen about, this other connection is likely to be the one who supplied him with the explosive device.
In other words, there's a rogue Islamic bomb maker on the run at the minimum that they're trying to pull down. Three people arrested so far, no idea if they're part of the crime or just people connected to people who are. Either way, they'll be combing Abedi's possessions as we speak, interviewing anyone who knows him, trawling the CCTV, and trying to figure out who got him the bomb and nail them fast.
That means this other chap is likely on a timer and knows it. Hence the 'critical' status, if he's going to hit anywhere, he may well try and do it soon before they catch up with him. That's my reading of what facts we've got so far anyway. Hopefully it's just the one bloke and not a cell of them, or this could get ugly.
Ketara wrote: The Home Secretary has said odds are, Abedi wasn't acting alone. What that means is that at least one other person was involved, and judging by some other reports I've seen about, this other connection is likely to be the one who supplied him with the explosive device.
In other words, there's a rogue Islamic bomb maker on the run at the minimum that they're trying to pull down. Three people arrested so far, no idea if they're part of the crime or just people connected to people who are. Either way, they'll be combing Abedi's possessions as we speak, interviewing anyone who knows him, trawling the CCTV, and trying to figure out who got him the bomb and nail them fast.
That means this other chap is likely on a timer and knows it. Hence the 'critical' status, if he's going to hit anywhere, he may well try and do it soon before they catch up with him. That's my reading of what facts we've got so far anyway. Hopefully it's just the one bloke and not a cell of them, or this could get ugly.
Equally, they could be hedging - given the apparent sophistication of the bomb, and lack of evidence he did act alone, they are working one the basis it is likely someone helped, without any direct evidence of such. Not saying that is the case at all, but odds are that he wasn't acting alone only means they judge it more likely than not, that he was assisted.
It could well be the case, but I'm inclined to think that for them to declare critical alert and undertake to deploy troops, there must have some evidence beyond guesswork.
As a country, we've had far, far worse. I work bloody close to one of the last atrocities of the IRA. My brother and I were once at London Bridge station mere hours before a bomb went off there. I wasn't scared then. And I'm not scared now.
As whole, while the IRA may not have been too concerned with collateral, women and children generally weren't their primary targets in these attacks.
When the IRA was setting up bombs, they often didn't care who it would hit. Obviously some of their attacks were more targeted (like trying to kill Thatcher) but a lot of them were just about getting a body count, no matter who it was.
Russia has offered the UK a increased relationship to fight ISIS and share info, and hunt them down. And one more tabloid press saying Putin seems to draw a line at targeting kids and was stating they would punish them for the attack.
If there genuine. Well it could be a powerful boost to fight against them.
They may have managed to get two nations not seeing eye to eye decide to unite.
As a country, we've had far, far worse. I work bloody close to one of the last atrocities of the IRA. My brother and I were once at London Bridge station mere hours before a bomb went off there. I wasn't scared then. And I'm not scared now.
As whole, while the IRA may not have been too concerned with collateral, women and children generally weren't their primary targets in these attacks.
When the IRA was setting up bombs, they often didn't care who it would hit. Obviously some of their attacks were more targeted (like trying to kill Thatcher) but a lot of them were just about getting a body count, no matter who it was.
I have only a passing familiarity with IRA, but didn´t they have a strategy to avoid civilian targets and focusing more on targets connected to the UK state like finance districts, airports and bridges?
As a country, we've had far, far worse. I work bloody close to one of the last atrocities of the IRA. My brother and I were once at London Bridge station mere hours before a bomb went off there. I wasn't scared then. And I'm not scared now.
As whole, while the IRA may not have been too concerned with collateral, women and children generally weren't their primary targets in these attacks.
When the IRA was setting up bombs, they often didn't care who it would hit. Obviously some of their attacks were more targeted (like trying to kill Thatcher) but a lot of them were just about getting a body count, no matter who it was.
I have only a passing familiarity with IRA, but didn´t they have a strategy to avoid civilian targets and focusing more on targets connected to the UK state like finance districts, airports and bridges?
Not really. Those may have been targets which they certainly tried to hit (along with soldiers and police officers) but they were also putting bombs in pubs, shopping centres, town centres etc.
jhe90 wrote: Russia has offered the UK a increased relationship to fight ISIS and share info, and hunt them down. And one more tabloid press saying Putin seems to draw a line at targeting kids and was stating they would punish them for the attack.
If there genuine. Well it could be a powerful boost to fight against them.
They may have managed to get two nations not seeing eye to eye decide to unite.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend and all that. I still hate Putin's regime but when compared to these scumbags he's the lesser evil.
And the IRA liked to think that they were a legitimate army fighting a guerrilla war against an occupying force but they weren't.
A lot of British politicians singing the praises of our health service and army, today, and yet, these same people have been cutting our army and health service to the bone for years
two-faced
Automatically Appended Next Post: And another thing - I've been going over my history of terrorism books, and have drawn the following conclusion:
There are two aspects of terrorism. The atrocity, and the reaction.
Now, obviously the atrocity is often hard to stop and is often outwith our control
but the reaction is not. Terrorism is robbed of a lot of its power if the targeted population refuses to be terrorized.
That is why I still maintain that the suspension of the election campaign was a grave error, and the deployment of troops to be tokenism at its worst.
During the Blitz of 1940, who would appear on the streets to reassure the population? Who would insist on shops opening and buses running?
Winston Churchill. He knew the power of the symbolism of carrying on gave to the population.
I'm up in here in Scotland, the middle of nowhere, miles from a big town or city, and yet election campaigning is suspended?
Terrible event, I can only imagine the death toll will be going up sadly with so many in critical condition.
Of course on other places of the internet we're already knee deep in the false flag BS or laughing at Arianna Grande because of her political positions. So many people are just pure garbage.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: A lot of British politicians singing the praises of our health service and army, today, and yet, these same people have been cutting our army and health service to the bone for years
two-faced
Automatically Appended Next Post: And another thing - I've been going over my history of terrorism books, and have drawn the following conclusion:
There are two aspects of terrorism. The atrocity, and the reaction.
Now, obviously the atrocity is often hard to stop and is often outwith our control
but the reaction is not. Terrorism is robbed of a lot of its power if the targeted population refuses to be terrorized.
That is why I still maintain that the suspension of the election campaign was a grave error, and the deployment of troops to be tokenism at its worst.
During the Blitz of 1940, who would appear on the streets to reassure the population? Who would insist on shops opening and buses running?
Winston Churchill. He knew the power of the symbolism of carrying on gave to the population.
I'm up in here in Scotland, the middle of nowhere, miles from a big town or city, and yet election campaigning is suspended?
True but compared to most modern political figures he is kind of getting doctorate while they barely passed a GCSE it seems..
But it's true. They see her and her fans and as whores. And they're not into music either. They see the likes of her as disgustingly unislamic and therefore a legitimate target.
I can see the point. Targets are selected for reasons. I suspect this one was chosen for a combination of several, to include 'soft target' with high probability of high casualties, the expected types of casualties (mostly younger people), the symbolism (hitting a Western pop concert in which the star and her audience are indeed examples of 'western decadence'), as well as physical target aspects (security situation, ingress routes, lack of cover to protect target and so on).
I'm sure the investigation will come up with more accurate reasoning for this selection, as well as other sites/events considered and so on.
Just like hitting a Christmas Party or Christmas Market, a gay dance club and other recent target selections all 'make sense' when you consider who was doing the targeting.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Looks like a 5th 'lone wolf' arrested in relation to this event.
And looks like an off duty cop was one of the victims killed.
Ketara wrote: The Home Secretary has said odds are, Abedi wasn't acting alone. What that means is that at least one other person was involved, and judging by some other reports I've seen about, this other connection is likely to be the one who supplied him with the explosive device.
In other words, there's a rogue Islamic bomb maker on the run at the minimum that they're trying to pull down. Three people arrested so far, no idea if they're part of the crime or just people connected to people who are. Either way, they'll be combing Abedi's possessions as we speak, interviewing anyone who knows him, trawling the CCTV, and trying to figure out who got him the bomb and nail them fast.
That means this other chap is likely on a timer and knows it. Hence the 'critical' status, if he's going to hit anywhere, he may well try and do it soon before they catch up with him. That's my reading of what facts we've got so far anyway. Hopefully it's just the one bloke and not a cell of them, or this could get ugly.
Equally, they could be hedging - given the apparent sophistication of the bomb, and lack of evidence he did act alone, they are working one the basis it is likely someone helped, without any direct evidence of such. Not saying that is the case at all, but odds are that he wasn't acting alone only means they judge it more likely than not, that he was assisted.
I'd agree with this thinking. The quote (from BBC) is that
"[Monday's attack] was more sophisticated than some of the attacks we've seen before, and it seems likely - possible - that [Abedi] wasn't doing this on his own."
That does imply that (at the time of the statement) there is no real evidence that it wasn't one persons actions (directly anyway). The wording implies an assumption that an individual couldn't have undertaken the attack on their own. However we don't have a lot of information on the explosive other than it appeared to be a variant on a nail bomb. If they have determined that there was high grade C4 used then yes it could be possible and likely; however effective explosives can be relatively easily made with a bit of knowledge especially if done carefully over a preparation period of months where the quantities being bought are way below the radar and by cash only. In some ways this is more likely to be difficult to track because there is less of on an electronic or written record. Such explosives are generally and relatively low yield (compared to something like C4) and hence to maximise damage you need densely crowded areas hence the target being the end of the show (bag searches may occur on the way in, but not in the concourse outside and that an explosion in the hall would have much less of an impact).
On the other hand by raising the fear of another attack it likely makes it easier for the police to round up anyone that might have been an associate and get extended questioning period. For those not in the UK unless you are arrested the police can't hold you and you can walk out the door. Being arrested does not mean you are guilty just that you are a 'person of interest' that they want guaranteed time to question. They only think you are guilty when you are charged. So at the moment we only have people arrested, no one has been charged (last time I looked anyway).
feeder wrote: Right. And the Bataclan attack was chosen because ISIS hates avian apex predators and the musical stylings of Obituary and Cannibal Corpse. /s
The target was chosen because it was a soft target with maximum casualties. It could have been any band.
Agreed with feeder.
That news article is just filler, if not click bait.
Mixed messages this afternoon - Amber Rudd says nothing more than it seems likely he was assisted, but according to the police they are looking for a network. Certainly arrests are being made but with this sort of thing I think if they hit a property they just arrest everyone, so not surprising,
Meanwhile, it's announced the Manchester Run is going ahead on Sunday, which is about 30,000 runners and 100,000 spectators strung out between the city centre and Old Trafford, which seems monumentally risky and impossible to protect, if there is another bomber waiting.
Also - thank you France, for Eric Cantona. You rock.
Ketara wrote: There's 'Keep Calm and Carry On' and then there's keeping an vague eye out for your personal safety the next few days whilst the government has publicly stated that there's an extremely high risk of another attack and deployed 5,000 troops on the streets. The two aren't mutually exclusive, and only a fool would equate the latter to 'letting the terrorists win'.
Nobody's saying to call in ill at work for fear of the big bad unknown. But in the same way you don't walk down large dark alleys in Brixton with strangely hooded men at 1am, it might be an idea to avoid obvious targets if not too much of an inconvenience for an appropriate time period whilst this is ongoing, the troops are on the streets, and a clearer picture is emerging.
I grew up and lived in Belfast and was in my late teens when the bombings stopped in Northern Ireland. Looking back now I realise how utterly terrible a time it was but in the middle of it I'm shocked now by how we did all carry on largely as normal. As kids we used to joke about English and Scottish relatives coming over who were worried about the danger. My dad worked for an Australian bank that had a branch in Belfast and when his boss came over he got paid danger money which we all thought funny even though dads office was blown up twice and we had a list taped beside the phone telling us what they say if he had been kidnapped and we got a ransom demand.
We had a bomb planted in the school during my 3rd year French exam, the train station blew up in my sisters face one day when she was coming home from school. Our local hotel got blown up one night all the pictures fell off the wall and we ran out into the street to see the ambulances arrive to pick up the dead and injured. We carried on. We went to funerals of people killed for no reason, just out shopping or out for a meal. It's weird looking back at all that it seemed so normal. It wasn't healthy it's left a society scared and I really pray we aren't moving toward more terror for a new generation. Teresa May and all those in government will make mistakes and get somethings right, we will agree and disagree with the approach of those in power. But I know that me thing in this judgmental world we live in now I don't envy their job and they will get my respect as long as I see them attempting to put the security of our people first. There are evil people in every generation and every land.
That's the thing though - they are not putting the British people first!
Bit of a rant here, but I am mad at this government.
They have been in power for 7 years, and in that time they have slashed police budgets, cut and fired police officers by the truck load, privatized the forensic analysis service, and even cut back on police sniffer dog numbers.
The British army is at the lowest number of soldiers it's ever been, the navy has more admirals than fighting ships, struggles to put a rowing boat to sea, and the Royal Air Force can't even launch a bombing campaign for more than two days unless the Americans help us out.
Our police and security services are operating with one hand tied behind their backs, and yet, this government has the nerve to stand up and say what a great job you're doing, credit to the nation blah blah blah
Well give them the fething tools to do the job you two faced pieces of
jhe90 wrote: Russia has offered the UK a increased relationship to fight ISIS and share info, and hunt them down. And one more tabloid press saying Putin seems to draw a line at targeting kids and was stating they would punish them for the attack.
If there genuine. Well it could be a powerful boost to fight against them.
They may have managed to get two nations not seeing eye to eye decide to unite.
Putin was happy to target kids in Beslan in 2004 and even used the affair to consolidate more power into his own office. He has been happy to target hospitals in Syria.
I wouldn't trust Putin any farther than I could spit my realpolitik of mutual national interests.
But don't worry, I'm sure Fuerher May will be reminding us only Strong and Stable Leadership, sure as Brexit means Brexit, will see us through this latest atrocity......
Ketara wrote: The Home Secretary has said odds are, Abedi wasn't acting alone. What that means is that at least one other person was involved, and judging by some other reports I've seen about, this other connection is likely to be the one who supplied him with the explosive device.
In other words, there's a rogue Islamic bomb maker on the run at the minimum that they're trying to pull down. Three people arrested so far, no idea if they're part of the crime or just people connected to people who are. Either way, they'll be combing Abedi's possessions as we speak, interviewing anyone who knows him, trawling the CCTV, and trying to figure out who got him the bomb and nail them fast.
That means this other chap is likely on a timer and knows it. Hence the 'critical' status, if he's going to hit anywhere, he may well try and do it soon before they catch up with him. That's my reading of what facts we've got so far anyway. Hopefully it's just the one bloke and not a cell of them, or this could get ugly.
Equally, they could be hedging - given the apparent sophistication of the bomb, and lack of evidence he did act alone, they are working one the basis it is likely someone helped, without any direct evidence of such. Not saying that is the case at all, but odds are that he wasn't acting alone only means they judge it more likely than not, that he was assisted.
I'd agree with this thinking. The quote (from BBC) is that
"[Monday's attack] was more sophisticated than some of the attacks we've seen before, and it seems likely - possible - that [Abedi] wasn't doing this on his own."
That does imply that (at the time of the statement) there is no real evidence that it wasn't one persons actions (directly anyway). The wording implies an assumption that an individual couldn't have undertaken the attack on their own. However we don't have a lot of information on the explosive other than it appeared to be a variant on a nail bomb. If they have determined that there was high grade C4 used then yes it could be possible and likely; however effective explosives can be relatively easily made with a bit of knowledge especially if done carefully over a preparation period of months where the quantities being bought are way below the radar and by cash only. In some ways this is more likely to be difficult to track because there is less of on an electronic or written record. Such explosives are generally and relatively low yield (compared to something like C4) and hence to maximise damage you need densely crowded areas hence the target being the end of the show (bag searches may occur on the way in, but not in the concourse outside and that an explosion in the hall would have much less of an impact).
On the other hand by raising the fear of another attack it likely makes it easier for the police to round up anyone that might have been an associate and get extended questioning period. For those not in the UK unless you are arrested the police can't hold you and you can walk out the door. Being arrested does not mean you are guilty just that you are a 'person of interest' that they want guaranteed time to question. They only think you are guilty when you are charged. So at the moment we only have people arrested, no one has been charged (last time I looked anyway).
We can extend detention of suspects before charge under the terror acts.
If a judge decides fairly extensive like 14 days or so.
Plenty of time to decide if you want to charge them with a crime.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: But don't worry, I'm sure Fuerher May will be reminding us only Strong and Stable Leadership, sure as Brexit means Brexit, will see us through this latest atrocity......
This is just like the father of that girl who ran off to Syria (or Iraq, I can't remember). He claimed to have no idea why she did it, and blamed it on the police for not stopping her, and they bent over backwards and apologized to him. Then the pic of him standing at one of Anjem Choudary's rallies, holding the banner and not two feet away from one of Lee Rigby's killers emerged. And nothing more was said or done.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: But don't worry, I'm sure Fuerher May will be reminding us only Strong and Stable Leadership, sure as Brexit means Brexit, will see us through this latest atrocity......
6 arrested, including at least three family members. If there is indeed a wider network at play here, won't be long until it's been dismantled.
Forgive me for being cynical, but in my experience, when these things happen, the police tend to arrest any old person for the sake of being seen to be doing something, we're in control, reassure the public etc etc
For all we know, they might have been arrested for scrumping for apples.
Though one wonders what would happen if we could somehow get our knuckle dragging far-right wankstains to STFU and manage to severely curtail racism (looking at you, Sun, Mail and Express) how bad the problem would actually be.
Without making any kind of excuses or justification of the actions, how many people can be brought up in a society where a very vocal minority constantly claim you're an extremist waiting to happen?
Cause and effect. You give someone already wrong in the head enough abuse, and eventually you'll get the monsters you always said they were.
When she was Home Secretary, our Prime Minister retired more police officers than social security.
And yet, she's promised them all the resources they need. I hope she has a time machine for them to reverse the cuts that were made into their budget and officer numbers...
In other news, there seems to be a diplomatic row between Britain and America.
The British government is not happy that sensitive info is being leaked to the New York Times. This comes on top of yesterday's leaks about the killer's movements and family members. British security services lose the element of surprise and have to fight through the media pack to reach the target, is the rational given for being mad at the leaks.
It's not like the US government or security services to be this slack with information, especially when a close friend and ally is involved.
We can extend detention of suspects before charge under the terror acts.
If a judge decides fairly extensive like 14 days or so.
Plenty of time to decide if you want to charge them with a crime.
Which is fine, but we should not mistake an arrest as implication of guilt. It is no surprise that the family members have been arrested as in all likelihood they new their other family members the most and the police will want to question them about what they know. That does not mean they had anything to do with it or knowledge however. We should remember the lessons from the Joanna Yeates fiasco .
It's not like the US government or security services to be this slack with information, especially when a close friend and ally is involved.
This is Donald Trump's government we're talking about here. We're lucky it was only leaked to the papers rather than Trump tweeting it out.
I don't want to turn this into a US politics thread, but to be fair to Trump, the people who run US security services, should know what to do in this situation, with reagrd to intel control, and they have decades of experience in dealing with a 'leaky' White House.
This kind of thing happened in the Reagan days, so it's not new.
Though one wonders what would happen if we could somehow get our knuckle dragging far-right wankstains to STFU and manage to severely curtail racism (looking at you, Sun, Mail and Express) how bad the problem would actually be.
Without making any kind of excuses or justification of the actions, how many people can be brought up in a society where a very vocal minority constantly claim you're an extremist waiting to happen?
Cause and effect. You give someone already wrong in the head enough abuse, and eventually you'll get the monsters you always said they were.
There is likely to be a lot of truth in this. The one thing we fail to do consistently is look inwards as to why this happened. That part of the blame may be in fact part of the way our society works. What is that make a UK born citizen decide that the only way they can make a statement is to explode a bomb. We are happy to put it down to extremists as a method of blame and then get on with life and not change the way society works. If we have a society that is happy to drive a wedge through different communities, not provide the same opportunities simply because of the colour of skin, language, religion and treat such people with fear and hatred. Then inevitably there will be people that won't tolerate such abuse and fall in with those that provide easy and populist messages to why society has treated them the way it has. In some ways suicide bombers are just as much victims, yes the crime is horrendous, but they are victims of ISIS using them and the failure of society to integrate different groups of people. Their death is needless just as much as everyone else's is and, despite what they have been made to believe, they gain nothing from doing so. The only people that gain are those that are manipulating them to try and implement regime change and for those people driving ISIS to gain power.
This is why at such times it is even more important to be open with people of different religions, language etc as to fear and hate such people will only drive more into extremists hands. We should not forget that for every one suicide bomber there are hundreds of actions each day by nurses, doctors, police etc that are saving people which we are simply not told about. These are the people we should remember.
This all really came to a head just shy of 16 years ago.
That means there's an entire generation of young Muslims who've spent their entire lives being told 'you're violent. You're a threat. You're all terrorists. You're all paedophiles. You should all be wiped out. Your religion is a 'cancer'.
I think the simple fact that such a tiny minority turn out to be anything of the sort is testament to just how big a lie it all is.
We need to tackle this hate from all angles. That we can (rightly) denounce someone for an evil post on social media (for instance, blaming everything ever on the Judaic faith), yet have someone like Katie Hopkins spouting whatever vile bigotry (including calling for a 'final solution') they want in the national press is a huge, huge part of the problem. It seems you can say anything you want about Islam and nobody bats an eyelid. Kick off about Judaism or Christianity and you're a dangerous extremist (which you may well be, or just another pathetic individual incapable of taking ownership of the state of your own existence)
That's the thing though - they are not putting the British people first!
Bit of a rant here, but I am mad at this government.
They have been in power for 7 years, and in that time they have slashed police budgets, cut and fired police officers by the truck load, privatized the forensic analysis service, and even cut back on police sniffer dog numbers.
The British army is at the lowest number of soldiers it's ever been, the navy has more admirals than fighting ships, struggles to put a rowing boat to sea, and the Royal Air Force can't even launch a bombing campaign for more than two days unless the Americans help us out.
Our police and security services are operating with one hand tied behind their backs, and yet, this government has the nerve to stand up and say what a great job you're doing, credit to the nation blah blah blah
Well give them the fething tools to do the job you two faced pieces of
We can extend detention of suspects before charge under the terror acts.
If a judge decides fairly extensive like 14 days or so.
Plenty of time to decide if you want to charge them with a crime.
Which is fine, but we should not mistake an arrest as implication of guilt. It is no surprise that the family members have been arrested as in all likelihood they new their other family members the most and the police will want to question them about what they know. That does not mean they had anything to do with it or knowledge however. We should remember the lessons from the Joanna Yeates fiasco .
Which is fine. As said if you want to charge them. They could just be pricing together much as they can about the bombers life, and small things that might crack a weak point or a valuable clue that changes everything.
It only takes a small pebble to trigger a avalanche.
Prime Minister May is to speak with Trump at the NATO summit on this issue, so we can only hope that Trump puts a boot up somebody's rear for these intel leaks.
Knockagh - you seem to have grown up in Norn Ireland at roughly the same time as me, but things seem to have had a more direct impact on your life than I ever felt.
But yeah, you just get on with things. What else are you going to do? Curl up in a hole and gibber? According to some parts of the media that's what most of us should be doing. "Live in fear! The terrorists are going to get you!!!"
Don't. Just get on with your life. Partly because you have to, partly because if you don't, they win. So I don't really agree with suspension of election campaigning, or anything else, on security issues - but I do agree with it because campaigning is a nasty, backbiting, divisive part of politics and allowing some cooling off time to prevent making political points out of this sort of thing is reasonable. And it shows a degree of unity and respect.
Prime Minister May is to speak with Trump at the NATO summit on this issue, so we can only hope that Trump puts a boot up somebody's rear for these intel leaks.
Why do you assume thats the White House? There are serious, serious problems at the intel gathering agencies (including the FBI)now with leaks. Have you not noticed the last six months?
Frazzled wrote: Why do you assume thats the White House? There are serious, serious problems at the intel gathering agencies (including the FBI)now with leaks. Have you not noticed the last six months?
The article actually says the exact opposite.
BBC security correspondent Gordon Corera says UK officials believe that US law enforcement rather than the White House is the likely culprit for the leaks.
My apologies to my fellow dakka members for my mistake.
I should have read the article properly.
I got it wrong.
In my very feeble defence, the buck stops at Trump's desk, so I hope he can fix the problems highlighted by Frazz with regard to problems at US intel services.
It ultimately depends on what level of law enforcement it was leaked from: neither Trump nor any other president can really control what gets leaked if the law enforcement in question wasn't the FBI.
However, the ability to control even that relationship - generally speaking, is very difficult if you've cultivated an actively hostile relationship with them.
Without getting into domestic US politics and coming at it from an international angle, if I were an allied intelligence agency I would definitely consider what intel I provided to the US right now. This fiasco is a pretty good example of that, sadly - regardless of who specifically leaked it.
There was an interview on Radio 2 this morning where a former top security guy was complaining that the US had done exactly the same thing during the 7/7 attacks. So it isn't exactly new.
Graphite wrote: There was an interview on Radio 2 this morning where a former top security guy was complaining that the US had done exactly the same thing during the 7/7 attacks. So it isn't exactly new.
We need US intelligence. They are a close friend and ally, but it's frustrating to see them act in an amateurish way. Let's hope they fix the problem of leaks.
Prime Minister May is to speak with Trump at the NATO summit on this issue, so we can only hope that Trump puts a boot up somebody's rear for these intel leaks.
It's not the White House...
The intel agencies has been leaking a fething ton since Trump's win.
EDITED: Ouze has the right of it... and it's systemic to a larger problem.
Prime Minister May is to speak with Trump at the NATO summit on this issue, so we can only hope that Trump puts a boot up somebody's rear for these intel leaks.
It's not the White House...
The intel agencies has been leaking a fething ton since Trump's win.
Given present that is wise.
There leak could of blown a investigation, helped a suspect escape.
Its a active situation and very serious, the leak is highly unprofessional.
If Police miss the wrong person out that cell, more people could die.
It's not a political issue, its national security.
Prime Minister May is to speak with Trump at the NATO summit on this issue, so we can only hope that Trump puts a boot up somebody's rear for these intel leaks.
It's not the White House...
The intel agencies has been leaking a fething ton since Trump's win.
Given present that is wise.
There leak could of blown a investigation, helped a suspect escape.
Its a active situation and very serious, the leak is highly unprofessional.
If Police miss the wrong person out that cell, more people could die.
It's not a political issue, its national security.
I'm not defending the US intelligence agencies here... it's a big fething deal. It seems that with all the leakage, these unnamed IC sources are simply blabbing to their news reporters to create chaos for Tillerson/Trump. At some point, the heads of these agencies need to tamp these out fast 'n hard.... and if they can't, then Trump needs to publicly fire them (but, that's a another topic where we don't have a home to discuss, so PM me if you want to continue this line of discussion).
Graphite wrote: There was an interview on Radio 2 this morning where a former top security guy was complaining that the US had done exactly the same thing during the 7/7 attacks. So it isn't exactly new.
We need US intelligence. They are a close friend and ally, but it's frustrating to see them act in an amateurish way. Let's hope they fix the problem of leaks.
part of the problem is that, the more agencies you share stuff with, the greater the likelyhood someone will do something you dont want done with it. US intel and law enforcement agencies are massive, and with a big shock event there's always someone who is either unaware or ignorant of the importance of the material or proper procedures, or who just doesnt care and wants to stir the pot, or who just makes a mistake. This isnt the first time, wont be the last, particularly in the big data age where anyone can send anything to the entire planet at an instant with basically zero effort, but it is extra sensitive because of the political environment and other issues with leaks right now.
Graphite wrote: There was an interview on Radio 2 this morning where a former top security guy was complaining that the US had done exactly the same thing during the 7/7 attacks. So it isn't exactly new.
We need US intelligence. They are a close friend and ally, but it's frustrating to see them act in an amateurish way. Let's hope they fix the problem of leaks.
part of the problem is that, the more agencies you share stuff with, the greater the likelyhood someone will do something you dont want done with it. US intel and law enforcement agencies are massive, and with a big shock event there's always someone who is either unaware or ignorant of the importance of the material or proper procedures, or who just doesnt care and wants to stir the pot, or who just makes a mistake. This isnt the first time, wont be the last, particularly in the big data age where anyone can send anything to the entire planet at an instant with basically zero effort, but it is extra sensitive because of the political environment and other issues with leaks right now.
Trumps declared anyone who leaked will be prosecuted for it.
Seems that Trump is trying to patch things up.
Graphite wrote: There was an interview on Radio 2 this morning where a former top security guy was complaining that the US had done exactly the same thing during the 7/7 attacks. So it isn't exactly new.
We need US intelligence. They are a close friend and ally, but it's frustrating to see them act in an amateurish way. Let's hope they fix the problem of leaks.
part of the problem is that, the more agencies you share stuff with, the greater the likelyhood someone will do something you dont want done with it. US intel and law enforcement agencies are massive, and with a big shock event there's always someone who is either unaware or ignorant of the importance of the material or proper procedures, or who just doesnt care and wants to stir the pot, or who just makes a mistake. This isnt the first time, wont be the last, particularly in the big data age where anyone can send anything to the entire planet at an instant with basically zero effort, but it is extra sensitive because of the political environment and other issues with leaks right now.
Trumps declared anyone who leaked will be prosecuted for it. Seems that Trump is trying to patch things up.
Just so that you know, it's very difficult to find the leakers. Since you cannot (or really, should not) force the reporters to reveal their sources. Unless the do some sort of Barium Meal Test™ that IDs the leaker.
Graphite wrote: There was an interview on Radio 2 this morning where a former top security guy was complaining that the US had done exactly the same thing during the 7/7 attacks. So it isn't exactly new.
We need US intelligence. They are a close friend and ally, but it's frustrating to see them act in an amateurish way. Let's hope they fix the problem of leaks.
part of the problem is that, the more agencies you share stuff with, the greater the likelyhood someone will do something you dont want done with it. US intel and law enforcement agencies are massive, and with a big shock event there's always someone who is either unaware or ignorant of the importance of the material or proper procedures, or who just doesnt care and wants to stir the pot, or who just makes a mistake. This isnt the first time, wont be the last, particularly in the big data age where anyone can send anything to the entire planet at an instant with basically zero effort, but it is extra sensitive because of the political environment and other issues with leaks right now.
Trumps declared anyone who leaked will be prosecuted for it.
Seems that Trump is trying to patch things up.
Just so that you know, it's very difficult to find the leakers. Since you cannot (or really, should not) force the reporters to reveal their sources. Unless the do some sort of Barium Meal Test™ that IDs the leaker.
For a leak that risked compromising a counter terror investigation of a allied nation running at highest level of alert and breaching x many national security acts for some bullgak political points or so this leaker can feel special...
No. Feth em. In any other job fired for gross negligence and breach data security and release of privileged information.
Graphite wrote: There was an interview on Radio 2 this morning where a former top security guy was complaining that the US had done exactly the same thing during the 7/7 attacks. So it isn't exactly new.
We need US intelligence. They are a close friend and ally, but it's frustrating to see them act in an amateurish way. Let's hope they fix the problem of leaks.
part of the problem is that, the more agencies you share stuff with, the greater the likelyhood someone will do something you dont want done with it. US intel and law enforcement agencies are massive, and with a big shock event there's always someone who is either unaware or ignorant of the importance of the material or proper procedures, or who just doesnt care and wants to stir the pot, or who just makes a mistake. This isnt the first time, wont be the last, particularly in the big data age where anyone can send anything to the entire planet at an instant with basically zero effort, but it is extra sensitive because of the political environment and other issues with leaks right now.
Trumps declared anyone who leaked will be prosecuted for it.
Seems that Trump is trying to patch things up.
Just so that you know, it's very difficult to find the leakers. Since you cannot (or really, should not) force the reporters to reveal their sources. Unless the do some sort of Barium Meal Test™ that IDs the leaker.
For a leak that risked compromising a counter terror investigation of a allied nation running at highest level of alert and breaching x many national security acts for some bullgak political points or so this leaker can feel special...
No. Feth em. In any other job fired for gross negligence and breach data security and release of privileged information.
Thats not how it works in the US. The 1st Amendment and SCOTUS decisions makes it very hard (thank Dog) to go after reporters. Sorry if you don't like it but thats why we went to divorce court back in the 1780s.
Now you understand why Trump is so frustrated. Not only his own guys in the WH, but holdovers in the FBI and CIA (looking at you Comey) have been leaking confidential docs for months now.
Back to topic. Now being reported that the relatives in Libya knew he was planning an attack.
Graphite wrote: There was an interview on Radio 2 this morning where a former top security guy was complaining that the US had done exactly the same thing during the 7/7 attacks. So it isn't exactly new.
We need US intelligence. They are a close friend and ally, but it's frustrating to see them act in an amateurish way. Let's hope they fix the problem of leaks.
part of the problem is that, the more agencies you share stuff with, the greater the likelyhood someone will do something you dont want done with it. US intel and law enforcement agencies are massive, and with a big shock event there's always someone who is either unaware or ignorant of the importance of the material or proper procedures, or who just doesnt care and wants to stir the pot, or who just makes a mistake. This isnt the first time, wont be the last, particularly in the big data age where anyone can send anything to the entire planet at an instant with basically zero effort, but it is extra sensitive because of the political environment and other issues with leaks right now.
Trumps declared anyone who leaked will be prosecuted for it.
Seems that Trump is trying to patch things up.
Just so that you know, it's very difficult to find the leakers. Since you cannot (or really, should not) force the reporters to reveal their sources. Unless the do some sort of Barium Meal Test™ that IDs the leaker.
For a leak that risked compromising a counter terror investigation of a allied nation running at highest level of alert and breaching x many national security acts for some bullgak political points or so this leaker can feel special...
No. Feth em. In any other job fired for gross negligence and breach data security and release of privileged information.
Thats not how it works in the US. The 1st Amendment and SCOTUS decisions makes it very hard (thank Dog) to go after reporters. Sorry if you don't like it but thats why we went to divorce court back in the 1780s.
Now you understand why Trump is so frustrated. Not only his own guys in the WH, but holdovers in the FBI and CIA (looking at you Comey) have been leaking confidential docs for months now.
Back to topic. Now being reported that the relatives in Libya knew he was planning an attack.
Comes down to simple facts. I worked at a call centre where I could not confirm to a non account holder they had a account.
Yet alone reveal confidental allied intelligence scot Free.
Its down right unprofessional to my view. What if It did risk a key suspect escaping. they ain't ones in firing line if these gak holes ain't caught.
Trump has promised to get to the bottom of these leaks, so let's hope he's as good as his word.
I'm being very careful not to stray into US politics here, but from my understanding, and taking on board earlier comments, there seems to be a big issue with this at the various US intel services. Leaks have been happening all over the place for at least a year. IMO it's a combination of Trump being elected, lax work culture, and dare I say, ill discipline.
I think Britain has been somewhat unlucky to be caught up in the fallout of this. I don't believe it's deliberate, it's just bad luck it's happening now...to us.
I'm not defending the US intelligence agencies here... it's a big fething deal. It seems that with all the leakage, these unnamed IC sources are simply blabbing to their news reporters to create chaos for Tillerson/Trump. At some point, the heads of these agencies need to tamp these out fast 'n hard.... and if they can't, then Trump needs to publicly fire them (but, that's a another topic where we don't have a home to discuss, so PM me if you want to continue this line of discussion).
Given that Trump released sensitive information given to it by another state to Russia, I don't really see what Trump can complain about (but then apparently he does have the attention span/memory of about 9 seconds). Maybe the security services are just taking Trumps gesture as remit to release loads of confidential information.
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Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Trump has promised to get to the bottom of these leaks, so let's hope he's as good as his word.
That shouldn't take to long, probably needs to look at the use of his own phone.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Trump has promised to get to the bottom of these leaks, so let's hope he's as good as his word.
I'm being very careful not to stray into US politics here, but from my understanding, and taking on board earlier comments, there seems to be a big issue with this at the various US intel services. Leaks have been happening all over the place for at least a year. IMO it's a combination of Trump being elected, lax work culture, and dare I say, ill discipline.
I think Britain has been somewhat unlucky to be caught up in the fallout of this. I don't believe it's deliberate, it's just bad luck it's happening now...to us.
It happened with Obama as well. His administration was actually pretty well known for going hard after leakers and prosecuting them.
Reading through the information at hand, seems that the focus of the investigation has shifted to the bomb maker, who, looking at what bomb fragments leaked, is pretty into his work.
I'm not sure this is a TATP bomb as was originally suggested in the media. Blast radius was a bit big and the bag smaller, with a motorcycle battery in with it. Maybe Semtex? Would have to be something that can be smuggled or made in a small lab. RDX maybe, it can be mixed with flour to mask it and smuggled in. They used screws, bolts and nails for shrap. Why not just buy a bucket of ball bearings? Weight must have been an issue. They definitely seemed to have been worried the bomb would be frozen with a lithium battery that big though.
This is entirely speculation, but this bomb is a bit over-engineered for a suicide attack. I think their original plan might have been to place it and detonate remotely. I wonder what changed?
BaronIveagh wrote: Reading through the information at hand, seems that the focus of the investigation has shifted to the bomb maker, who, looking at what bomb fragments leaked, is pretty into his work.
I'm not sure this is a TATP bomb as was originally suggested in the media. Blast radius was a bit big and the bag smaller, with a motorcycle battery in with it. Maybe Semtex? Would have to be something that can be smuggled or made in a small lab. RDX maybe, it can be mixed with flour to mask it and smuggled in. They used screws, bolts and nails for shrap. Why not just buy a bucket of ball bearings? Weight must have been an issue. They definitely seemed to have been worried the bomb would be frozen with a lithium battery that big though.
This is entirely speculation, but this bomb is a bit over-engineered for a suicide attack. I think their original plan might have been to place it and detonate remotely. I wonder what changed?
Attacker reported to do a dummy run.
Maybe they sadly learnt one strategy wad not effective and changed tac.
Sadly they managed to kill however they planned to do it.
Attacker reported to do a dummy run.
Maybe they sadly learnt one strategy wad not effective and changed tac.
Sadly they managed to kill however they planned to do it.
Hmmm...
Methodical enough to do a dry run, and vicious enough to target kids, but didn't set up a second device to kill the first responders.
They had a shortage of whatever their explosive was. Must have been something smuggled in.
Attacker reported to do a dummy run.
Maybe they sadly learnt one strategy wad not effective and changed tac.
Sadly they managed to kill however they planned to do it.
Hmmm...
Methodical enough to do a dry run, and vicious enough to target kids, but didn't set up a second device to kill the first responders.
They had a shortage of whatever their explosive was. Must have been something smuggled in.
A man with similar look, same bag. Seen there few days prior... Has to be a dry run and recon.
Again likely... They noy said exactly but that much power, that many dead...
Its probbly not quite thr home made kitchen household items kind of explosives.
He had traveled from Libya if that helps... Family are suspected to also be Jihadi. Dad n brother.
Attacker reported to do a dummy run. Maybe they sadly learnt one strategy wad not effective and changed tac. Sadly they managed to kill however they planned to do it.
Hmmm...
Methodical enough to do a dry run, and vicious enough to target kids, but didn't set up a second device to kill the first responders.
They had a shortage of whatever their explosive was. Must have been something smuggled in.
Or the bomb maker set him up to be a suicide. Tells him that when he flicks the switch it'll start the countdown and to do it at such and such a time in order to have enough time to get away when in reality it just sets it off straight away. It was a tactic the IRA used to use with coerced (or just untrusted) bomb deliverers. They used to use pegs as part of the detonator, instructions were to take the peg off and come back to them. Sometimes the peg did start a timer, other times not. They'd also mark the pegs so they could tell if people came back with pegs they'd bought in order to try and trick them. If you were caught trying to pass off a peg as a bomb peg, you'd get kneecapped if you were lucky.
Attacker reported to do a dummy run.
Maybe they sadly learnt one strategy wad not effective and changed tac.
Sadly they managed to kill however they planned to do it.
Hmmm...
Methodical enough to do a dry run, and vicious enough to target kids, but didn't set up a second device to kill the first responders.
They had a shortage of whatever their explosive was. Must have been something smuggled in.
Or the bomb maker set him up to be a suicide. Tells him that when he flicks the switch it'll start the countdown and to do it at such and such a time in order to have enough time to get away when in reality it just sets it off straight away. It was a tactic the IRA used to use with coerced bomb deliverers.
Dead men do tell no tales...
And the bomb maker seems from the sheer level of hunt and terror level, not some low level smuck.
Attacker reported to do a dummy run.
Maybe they sadly learnt one strategy wad not effective and changed tac.
Sadly they managed to kill however they planned to do it.
Hmmm...
Methodical enough to do a dry run, and vicious enough to target kids, but didn't set up a second device to kill the first responders.
They had a shortage of whatever their explosive was. Must have been something smuggled in.
Attacker reported to do a dummy run.
Maybe they sadly learnt one strategy wad not effective and changed tac.
Sadly they managed to kill however they planned to do it.
Hmmm...
Methodical enough to do a dry run, and vicious enough to target kids, but didn't set up a second device to kill the first responders.
They had a shortage of whatever their explosive was. Must have been something smuggled in.
People willing to kill themselves for Allah in the West aren't a huge resource (one could say a naturally diminishing one!). Planting a second device prior to the first risks discovery before the main event if you leave it unsupervised. Not to mention the restrictions on what a single man can carry without looking suspicious. If he was on his own and just had a handler who got him the materials and instructions, their options would have been limited.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Alternatively, anger or dejection. If you're angry enough or have given up already, why would death matter?
I don't know what this terrorist thought or what his motivation was, but in other similar cases, terrorists yell religious slogans, implying my alternative, not yours.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Alternatively, anger or dejection. If you're angry enough or have given up already, why would death matter?
I don't know what this terrorist thought or what his motivation was, but in other similar cases, terrorists yell religious slogans, implying my alternative, not yours.
The Democratic People's Republic of Korea is not Democratic, of the People, or a Republic, and yet they claim that they are. Why do we take people at face value?
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Or the bomb maker set him up to be a suicide. Tells him that when he flicks the switch it'll start the countdown and to do it at such and such a time in order to have enough time to get away when in reality it just sets it off straight away. It was a tactic the IRA used to use with coerced (or just untrusted) bomb deliverers. They used to use pegs as part of the detonator, instructions were to take the peg off and come back to them. Sometimes the peg did start a timer, other times not. They'd also mark the pegs so they could tell if people came back with pegs they'd bought in order to try and trick them. If you were caught trying to pass off a peg as a bomb peg, you'd get kneecapped if you were lucky.
Sadly, that's not how ISIS does it. They send two guys, one with the pushbutton wearing the bomb, and one with a remote detonator to blow the first guy up if he chickens out. The IRA are much nicer people, and use a very different approach.
Baxx wrote:The motiviation for such attacks typically include an actual belief in afterlife, martyrdom and eternal awards in heaven for you and your loved ones.
With that conviction, you don't need to be fooled by a false countdown or anything else.
Pretty much this. However, the objective of the attack is maximum casualties and maximum terror. That's why you plant that second device.
As far as risking detection, how much suspicion does a guy with a cart full of tools and a canvas jumpsuit with 'Bob's HVAC Supply and Repair" on it really illicit, even if he's carrying a heavy bag? You could load the AC with phosgene and walk away if you really wanted to.
I take back what I said earlier about US security services. Rex Tillerson has flown to London to apologise for the leaks. You don't see that every day.
I don't doubt that the White House is sincere in its actions and words, but they're probably using this as an opportunity to really go after the leakers who have been annoying the White House for months now.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I take back what I said earlier about US security services. Rex Tillerson has flown to London to apologise for the leaks. You don't see that every day.
I don't doubt that the White House is sincere in its actions and words, but they're probably using this as an opportunity to really go after the leakers who have been annoying the White House for months now.
Yeah. The leakers have made a risk there, well maybe they never meant that to happen.
While it was solely US stuff, I mean its a long way from a allied nation information that threatens a international intelligence sharing agreement.
Suddenly things get a tad more likely that you gonna get deeper investigations and efferts to find them.
Police have begun releasing people they arrested following the attack. A 16 yer old boy and a 22 year old woman, neither one named in the article, have been released.
They also deny that the 30+ hate crimes reported in Manchester since the attack are related to the attack. Apparently people started beating random Lebanese out of the blue, rather than for any particularly obvious reason.
Frazzled wrote: Thats almost funny. Intelligence leakers never get caught in the US.
B.H Obama strongly disagrees with you. He retired more leakers and whistleblowers than social security.
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BaronIveagh wrote: Police have begun releasing people they arrested following the attack. A 16 yer old boy and a 22 year old woman, neither one named in the article, have been released.
They also deny that the 30+ hate crimes reported in Manchester since the attack are related to the attack. Apparently people started beating random Lebanese out of the blue, rather than for any particularly obvious reason.
Sadly, this kind of thing has been happening since last year's EU referendum.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I take back what I said earlier about US security services. Rex Tillerson has flown to London to apologise for the leaks. You don't see that every day.
I don't doubt that the White House is sincere in its actions and words, but they're probably using this as an opportunity to really go after the leakers who have been annoying the White House for months now.
Yeah. The leakers have made a risk there, well maybe they never meant that to happen.
While it was solely US stuff, I mean its a long way from a allied nation information that threatens a international intelligence sharing agreement.
Suddenly things get a tad more likely that you gonna get deeper investigations and efferts to find them.
I don't think for a minute that the 5 eyes agreement is under threat, but you add this leak, and Trump's wild accusations against GCHQ a few months back, and I'm surprised that it hasn't collapsed by now.
Like I said earlier, the White House is taking these leaks seriously, and I know enough American history to know that the problem will be solved eventually.
Like I said earlier, the White House is taking these leaks seriously, and I know enough American history to know that the problem will be solved eventually.
We are making the assumption though that it was the American intelligence community that leaked it. However we don't know how many other international agencies have access to the information (noting that there are many countries the share such intel). It could just be a British operative that released it indirectly to an American newspaper as a way of disguising who did it. After all we have all assumed it was American agents that did it. We could have an even more perverse situation was that it was a Trump supporter that did it deliberately to give Trump the excuse to clamp down on the FBI, CIA etc because he is at logger heads with them (even if those at the top don't know anything about it). We still can't ignore that there may be political games going on here.
For all we know, one of Trump's place-men leaked it to create an international storm to justify Trump bearing down hard on the people leaking stuff about the enquiry into all the Team Trump people with dodgy looking connections to Russia.
Frazzled wrote: Thats almost funny. Intelligence leakers never get caught in the US.
B.H Obama strongly disagrees with you. He retired more leakers and whistleblowers than social security.
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BaronIveagh wrote: Police have begun releasing people they arrested following the attack. A 16 yer old boy and a 22 year old woman, neither one named in the article, have been released.
They also deny that the 30+ hate crimes reported in Manchester since the attack are related to the attack. Apparently people started beating random Lebanese out of the blue, rather than for any particularly obvious reason.
Sadly, this kind of thing has been happening since last year's EU referendum.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I take back what I said earlier about US security services. Rex Tillerson has flown to London to apologise for the leaks. You don't see that every day.
I don't doubt that the White House is sincere in its actions and words, but they're probably using this as an opportunity to really go after the leakers who have been annoying the White House for months now.
Yeah. The leakers have made a risk there, well maybe they never meant that to happen.
While it was solely US stuff, I mean its a long way from a allied nation information that threatens a international intelligence sharing agreement.
Suddenly things get a tad more likely that you gonna get deeper investigations and efferts to find them.
I don't think for a minute that the 5 eyes agreement is under threat, but you add this leak, and Trump's wild accusations against GCHQ a few months back, and I'm surprised that it hasn't collapsed by now.
Like I said earlier, the White House is taking these leaks seriously, and I know enough American history to know that the problem will be solved eventually.
Not collapse it, no. But they did manage to get US I tel frozen out a terror case least for a temp basis, if not until conclusion
Not collapse it, no. But they did manage to get US I tel frozen out a terror case least for a temp basis, if not until conclusion
Now for Trump to call that a great success and call for the dismantling of the FBI and removal of all special prosecutors.
The idea a pro trump member leaked to discredit own service with a black ops personal approach, sadly I cannot say that's entirely implausible given groups like FBI are rather a animosity relationship with own president.
