So, after playing 8th with my grey Knights, I've found several things that leads me to believe the grey Knights have been nerfed. As it stands, all the power armored knights are pretty useless, and most the special weapons are overpriced and do relatively little. Psychic focus hits grey Knights really hard, and our nerfed smite is a slap in the face. Grey knight librarians also are fairly worthless when they bring nothing that other grey Knights have. Dreadknights got hurt too, as did both of our terminators. Even kaldor isnt quite worth it when he no longer can put a storm shield in a squad.

Let me start by mentioning that power armored grey Knights are pretty much hurt to the point of uselessness unless your running strike squads. The hit to flamers, and the fact incinerators no longer read "and the hoard is dead" anymore on their stat sheet as well as the fact that shunt is gone practically means interceptors are rather lackluster. They're just power armored guys with deep strike now. Purifiers also got hit by the nerf to our heavy weapons. A psycannon will reliable maybe do one wound to a tank or unit of marines. Str 7 ap-1 1 wound is anemic on a 20 point weapon. This is compounded by the fact purifiers lost an attack, got a point raise and had cleansing flame nerfed to near uselessness. The same heavy weapons problem hurts purgation squads as well. As it stands only strike squads were left in the same spot they were in, and though they got a few nice buffs, they're still a 21 point model with 1 wound and 3+.

Now let's talk about terminators. The terminators we have got a price raise when they would of been fine at 2 wounds and keeping the same price point. Thunder hammers getting hit with a price raise and heavy weapons getting ruined really hurts these guys, and sadly any weapon that'll ignore their armor should put them down in one hit. The second would should of been free to compensate for all the ap3 1d3 wound stuff out there. Sadly, I suspect terminators are squishy as ever, and cost more. This same problem is true of paladins, who got nerfed hard. They lost the apothecary upgrade and lost the banner, which now means they've no reason to be picked up over custodians or even other terminators. They're worse than ever.

Dreadknight weapons are bad. The incinerator Has shorter range, hits less, and ignores less armor and costs double. The psycannon does d3 wounds but is only good at killing 1 wound infantry, and the psycanon will do 1-2 wounds if your lucky against a tank. They've less attacks now, and lost the access to a 4+ invuln. Now haywire works on them, and they lost shunt. Dreadknights already were easy to kill by most good armies, so this unilateral nerf seems pretty rough. The big kicker is the loss in attacks as he losses wounds.

Kaldor can't guard units with his shield or bounce buddies around anymore and psychic focus means you should probably barrow a different chapter's librarian, or just invite a fluffy inquisitor for your HQ taxes.

Right now dread Knights still are the best grey knight unit even after being nerfed hard. We are still Codex Dreadknight, only this time kaldor no longer has any utility, and termies are questionable as troops. The two power armored units which were almost good now are bad, and librarians which were good now are made useless by the troops having the same powers. The attacker swinging first actually I've seen hurts us more than anything most of the time, and we really don't have shooting or the numbers needed to really be spooky.

I don't see why GW thought we needed nerfs across the board, but every unit seems to have been hit hard.

I agree with a lot of what is written here. The biggest problem with gate of infinity is that you only target the unit, not the radius-conjoined buff units.

So if you want Draigo to gate a terminator squad, he's left behind. Does that make sense? The only use i've found for Gate of Infinity is to remove land raiders from melee combat, and deposit them in rapid fire range of what just charged them.

Take Purge Soul, while it's nice you can target a specific unit within 12" and potentially deal mortal wounds, units that have leadership modifiers are flat out immune to this power. For instance, Orks, will never suffer because of Mob Rule. Good luck beating a 20 +D6 on your leadership roll.

They are limited to 3 weapons at range that suck something awful. Their terminators can't take storm shields. Their HQ buffs are completely redundant. Reroll 1s! Oh look! Reroll 1s! Blade of the Antwyr is ridiculous, who thought this was balanced? Oops, i forgot the storm bolter. It now can fire 4 shots. But these are strength 4 ap0, so good luck wounding anything.

All in all, i would say Grey Knights are pathetic, and all of their army weaknesses in 7th have been worsened in 8th. Especially their anti-vehicle. They have *none* now. At least before, you could rely on rending weapons to get you there with volume of fire. Now, Your ability to kill a land raider outside of melee doesn't exist.

Its almost as if 8th is a different game from 7th

And all factions are different.

All grey knight units shooting output was doubled with Storm Bolters being rapid fire 2, thats 4 shots for each dude in 12 inches, also with the buff to melee weapons and force weapons they do a scary amount of wounds now in combat with very high negative ap modifiers

Incinerators are crazy good now as they have a negative AP modifier as well as being high strength. Especially the Dreadknight version being 12 inches.

Draigo is still a beat stick that gives everyone rerolls within 6 inches, can reroll and can still actually teleport people if you give him gate, and he can cast 2 powers. Smite is not to be underestimated as very few things can give mortal wounds and your entire army can cast it.

Dreadnaughts are a good choice now

Your main problem is comparing 7th to 8th, which for all intents and purposes apples to oranges.

No. No reason at all for the nerfs.

(An army built around Terminators/Dreadnaughts still sort of works; things that up and ignore 2+ armour are a lot harder to come by, new Deep Strike and the new cover rules are pretty helpful, four shots at half range out of storm bolters matters a lot more now, and Dreadnaughts as gun platforms are a lot better than they were in 7th; but PAGK are still terrible (and got even more so, what with 26pt 1-Attack Purifiers and no-Fire-Point transports), the power-level costs are useless because they assume you're going wall-to-wall hammers, the Dreadknight is an overpriced gimmick who would almost always be better replaced with 1.5 Dreadnaughts, and the characters are bizzarely expensive for no readily apparent reason).

Now if you're playing a mode without the rule of 1 on psychic powers the army is a little better, since your mandatory all-falchions melee loadout is wounding anything up to T7 on 3+ and you can combo Sanctioned Psykers with Purge Soul to keep a sustained mortal-wounds drain on hard targets, but as-written GK are pretty bad right now.

Submit this feedback to GW after some more play testing, they will be doing yearly updates after all

One thing that surprised me quite a bit was that dreadknights remain pretty cheap. I added it up a little while ago, and I think they're ~220 points now, and were around that in 7th.

Compare to, say, a riptide, which went from mid 200s to high 300s - low 400s.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
No. No reason at all for the nerfs.

(An army built around Terminators/Dreadnaughts still sort of works; things that up and ignore 2+ armour are a lot harder to come by, new Deep Strike and the new cover rules are pretty helpful, four shots at half range out of storm bolters matters a lot more now, and Dreadnaughts as gun platforms are a lot better than they were in 7th; but PAGK are still terrible (and got even more so, what with 26pt 1-Attack Purifiers and no-Fire-Point transports), the power-level costs are useless because they assume you're going wall-to-wall hammers, the Dreadknight is an overpriced gimmick who would almost always be better replaced with 1.5 Dreadnaughts, and the characters are bizzarely expensive for no readily apparent reason).

Now if you're playing a mode without the rule of 1 on psychic powers the army is a little better, since your mandatory all-falchions melee loadout is wounding anything up to T7 on 3+ and you can combo Sanctioned Psykers with Purge Soul to keep a sustained mortal-wounds drain on hard targets, but as-written GK are pretty bad right now.

Very few things ignore 2+s completely, but most put you equal to or less than your natural 5+ invuln. Dreadknight weapons are overpriced and suck at shooting.


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 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Its almost as if 8th is a different game from 7th

And all factions are different.

All grey knight units shooting output was doubled with Storm Bolters being rapid fire 2, thats 4 shots for each dude in 12 inches, also with the buff to melee weapons and force weapons they do a scary amount of wounds now in combat with very high negative ap modifiers

Incinerators are crazy good now as they have a negative AP modifier as well as being high strength. Especially the Dreadknight version being 12 inches.

Draigo is still a beat stick that gives everyone rerolls within 6 inches, can reroll and can still actually teleport people if you give him gate, and he can cast 2 powers. Smite is not to be underestimated as very few things can give mortal wounds and your entire army can cast it.

Dreadnaughts are a good choice now

Your main problem is comparing 7th to 8th, which for all intents and purposes apples to oranges.

Storm bolter buff is nice, but if you Shoot anything within 12 feet with them your making your charge impossible as they'll pick wounds from the front. If your not shooting infantry, storm bolters are useless. Kaldor is bad, as he cannot stick with gating squads. Gate targets units, so he can't come with. Incinerators are horrible. Most models it deleted get saves now, and it is bad at infantry. It got its range nerfed. Anything where the 2 wounds matter will get a save, anything that gets hurt by the ignores cover doesn't care about losing 2 wounds.

Your right, 8th plays differently. It plays in such a way as to nerf grey Knights.


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 Rippy wrote:
Submit this feedback to GW after some more play testing, they will be doing yearly updates after all

Played 7 games. Started optimistic, now I'm disappointed.

A shame for Grey Knights to suck. Maybe if GW is mercifull they'll give us a Inquisition codex mixing Grey Knights, Deathwatch and Sisters of Battle and give "chapter tactics" in the form of different rules for the different Ordos, that you lose if you mix your Inquisitors with units from more than one Ordos.

From what i've seen pagk put a lot of hurt but are easy to kill. So, glasscannons like usual, i guess. You definitely nee a bunch of rhinos to play gk now.

Why would you take PAGK when you can do anything better with Death Company? At least there i'll get some nice codex benefits like black rage and a 6+ FNP, as well as the ability to put a power fist or two in the squad, and take pistols that are FAR superior to storm bolters.

10 death company with power swords, plasma pistols, and jump packs cost 310 points.

10 interceptors with power swords & storm bolters cost 250 points.

That's 60 points difference, for:
1. 20 extra attacks in melee (black rage, +1 base).
2. FNP on 6
3. The ability to further buff this squad with an HQ that is far superior than just "reroll 1s," and is mobile enough to keep up.
4. 10 plasma pistol shots in the shooting phase, and can be fired in close combat.
5. The ability to mix and match weapons. So you want to have some power swords, but not pay for all of them, so you can get extra attacks to clear hordes? No problem you have that flexibility.

If you drop the plasma pistols, the Death Company are cheaper.

Can someone explain to me why you'd ever take interceptors over Death Company?

Jaxler isn't wrong; there is no reason to play with half the codex again.

Paladins, Dreadknights, Razorbacks.

Barebones as possible, because we lack the QUALITY to compete with numbers.

 koooaei wrote:
From what i've seen pagk put a lot of hurt but are easy to kill. So, glasscannons like usual, i guess. You definitely nee a bunch of rhinos to play gk now.

That's true, but in all honestly you're better off taking terminators. They get there faster and cost less than PWGKs in a rhino.

I think these guys will pretty much stay shelved for me unfortunately until they get some love except for when I want to play a fluff game and reminisce about the times using GK as melee specialist in Dawn of War.

well a squad of GTKs might be a fun fluffy thing to toss in an Imperial army otherwise. :(

I must be having a totally different set of games then you guys are having. I have had no issue with my PAGKs. I mostly run purifiers and stormravens though with crowe as a commander.

I have difficulties on Imperial guard armies with 150 conscripts but that is about it. Vs Blood angels they have had zero issue. Against Thousand sons I have had no issues.

Psycannons for Power armored guys got better. When moving 4 shots at 4+ to hit is better than 2 shots at 3+ to hit. not to mention there isn't a reduction to range now.

Agreed on most accounts... Gonna give it a few more games.

Every unit spitting out smite mortal wounds is a nerf?

I'm gonna sound like fething Tau player in 7th talking about nova wounds...

If you literally average out the smite wounds and perils over the course of the game for a unit, you will be trading somewhere 2.5 succesful smites, 1.5 failed, 1.5 perils. A single perils will kill more points of your own guys, than of your opponents. Unless they too are Grey Knights.

The only unit this does not hold true for is purifiers. Who are over costed by about 4 points per model.

Grey Knights don't deserve to be called a psychic army.

But hey let's take everything out of context like you did! Someone who doesn't play Grey Knights doesn't understand how few model we field. If we take barebone squads of cheapest unit possible, we only spit out 15 POSSIBLE smites per turn. Which is horrible.

Edit: if you could aim where the smite went or if we had a unnerfed smite range maybe that would be acceptable. Or if we didn't perils, or if we could get the supercharge version of smite. Or we manifested it easier.

 Quickjager wrote:
I'm gonna sound like fething Tau player in 7th talking about nova wounds...

If you literally average out the smite wounds and perils over the course of the game for a unit, you will be trading somewhere 2.5 succesful smites, 1.5 failed, 1.5 perils. A single perils will kill more points of your own guys, than of your opponents. Unless they too are Grey Knights.

The only unit this does not hold true for is purifiers. Who are over costed by about 4 points per model.

Grey Knights don't deserve to be called a psychic army.

But hey let's take everything out of context like you did! Someone who doesn't play Grey Knights doesn't understand how few model we field. If we take barebone squads of cheapest unit possible, we only spit out 15 POSSIBLE smites per turn. Which is horrible.

Edit: if you could aim where the smite went or if we had a unnerfed smite range maybe that would be acceptable. Or if we didn't perils, or if we could get the supercharge version of smite. Or we manifested it easier.

I think you're being a little harsh on the guy, but really I think the big issue is that our Smite is capped at 1 Mortal Wound unless you're a Daemon. I had a Daemon player smite one of my Terminators for 5 Mortal Wounds in my last game. I'd need 5 entire units of Grey Knights successfully casting to pull that off. While his odds aren't huge for doing that every turn, mine are drastically smaller. Especially when you factor in that a Grey Knight army, since it's elite, will be fielding, what, 8 units? 10?

About time they got a nerf. They've been one of the most vicious armies in the game ever since they got their own dex.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
About time they got a nerf. They've been one of the most vicious armies in the game ever since they got their own dex.

....... you ever played against them with the 7th edition codex did you? they where a one trick pony.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
About time they got a nerf. They've been one of the most vicious armies in the game ever since they got their own dex.

Not in 7th ed. And that doesn't make reason for being underpowered. If you seriously think they deserve being underpowered because of past then you ain't looking for balance but for revenge.

Audustum wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
I'm gonna sound like fething Tau player in 7th talking about nova wounds...

If you literally average out the smite wounds and perils over the course of the game for a unit, you will be trading somewhere 2.5 succesful smites, 1.5 failed, 1.5 perils. A single perils will kill more points of your own guys, than of your opponents. Unless they too are Grey Knights.

The only unit this does not hold true for is purifiers. Who are over costed by about 4 points per model.

Grey Knights don't deserve to be called a psychic army.

But hey let's take everything out of context like you did! Someone who doesn't play Grey Knights doesn't understand how few model we field. If we take barebone squads of cheapest unit possible, we only spit out 15 POSSIBLE smites per turn. Which is horrible.

Edit: if you could aim where the smite went or if we had a unnerfed smite range maybe that would be acceptable. Or if we didn't perils, or if we could get the supercharge version of smite. Or we manifested it easier.

I think you're being a little harsh on the guy, but really I think the big issue is that our Smite is capped at 1 Mortal Wound unless you're a Daemon. I had a Daemon player smite one of my Terminators for 5 Mortal Wounds in my last game. I'd need 5 entire units of Grey Knights successfully casting to pull that off. While his odds aren't huge for doing that every turn, mine are drastically smaller. Especially when you factor in that a Grey Knight army, since it's elite, will be fielding, what, 8 units? 10?

If you were playing against a Daemon list, wouldn't each smite do an automatic 3 mortal wounds if successful? I thought they were nerfed against all comers except our empyrean friends...

cuda1179 wrote:Psycannons for Power armored guys got better. When moving 4 shots at 4+ to hit is better than 2 shots at 3+ to hit. not to mention there isn't a reduction to range now.

Problem is the psycannon can't kill any tanks anymore, it lost rend. It's only sorta good at killing medium infantry, and tbh it's not even amazing at that. It can barely hurt any tough stuff at the huge cost of 20 points.

Youn wrote:I must be having a totally different set of games then you guys are having. I have had no issue with my PAGKs. I mostly run purifiers and stormravens though with crowe as a commander.

I have difficulties on Imperial guard armies with 150 conscripts but that is about it. Vs Blood angels they have had zero issue. Against Thousand sons I have had no issues.

Your purifiers should be doing a lot with them 11-21 attacks on the charge for an almost 300 point unit, before taking into account the cost of the raven. Also, remember, you're not going to wound well with power swords. Your extra wounds mean nothing to fodder too. Also, the turn after you arrive you will die horribly to small arms fodder when whatever blob you charged walks back. Congrats your 300 points with a 200+ point delivery just killed a unit maybe.

The best right now is small unit spam. 150 gaurd/conscripts/gaunts/orks is the meta

Hückleberry wrote:Every unit spitting out smite mortal wounds is a nerf?

It is when you lost hammer hand and are about as likely to hurt your 20 point model as you are to put a wound maybe on a tank/multiwound model, or kill A gaurdsmen. Sounds like a bad trade.

KingmanHighborn wrote:About time they got a nerf. They've been one of the most vicious armies in the game ever since they got their own dex.

Did you even play 7th/6th? They got nerfed consistently the whole time. In fact, without dreadknights, they were about as good as DE or orks, and in the same boat of tyrnaids as far as "Everything sucks, but we've a unit." If you said what you just said about tyrnaids people would go "Lol what? that's silly, why do you want one of the bad codexes nerfed?"

Wanting one of the worst codexes nerfed because they were broken more than an edition ago ago is silly.


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 Aetare wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
I'm gonna sound like fething Tau player in 7th talking about nova wounds...

If you literally average out the smite wounds and perils over the course of the game for a unit, you will be trading somewhere 2.5 succesful smites, 1.5 failed, 1.5 perils. A single perils will kill more points of your own guys, than of your opponents. Unless they too are Grey Knights.

The only unit this does not hold true for is purifiers. Who are over costed by about 4 points per model.

Grey Knights don't deserve to be called a psychic army.

But hey let's take everything out of context like you did! Someone who doesn't play Grey Knights doesn't understand how few model we field. If we take barebone squads of cheapest unit possible, we only spit out 15 POSSIBLE smites per turn. Which is horrible.

Edit: if you could aim where the smite went or if we had a unnerfed smite range maybe that would be acceptable. Or if we didn't perils, or if we could get the supercharge version of smite. Or we manifested it easier.

I think you're being a little harsh on the guy, but really I think the big issue is that our Smite is capped at 1 Mortal Wound unless you're a Daemon. I had a Daemon player smite one of my Terminators for 5 Mortal Wounds in my last game. I'd need 5 entire units of Grey Knights successfully casting to pull that off. While his odds aren't huge for doing that every turn, mine are drastically smaller. Especially when you factor in that a Grey Knight army, since it's elite, will be fielding, what, 8 units? 10?

If you were playing against a Daemon list, wouldn't each smite do an automatic 3 mortal wounds if successful? I thought they were nerfed against all comers except our empyrean friends...

Lets be honest, grey knights should get a bonus against demons, not be horrible unless against demons.

 Quickjager wrote:
If you literally average out the smite wounds and perils over the course of the game for a unit, you will be trading somewhere 2.5 succesful smites, 1.5 failed, 1.5 perils. A single perils will kill more points of your own guys, than of your opponents. Unless they too are Grey Knights..

How do you perils 1/6th of the time? Perils is on double 1s or double 6s, not just any double.
Smite is successfully manifested 83% of the time, and you peril 5% of the time. If you take an average of 2 wounds when you perils (so we're assuming your unit still has at least 4 wounds left), you still deal 7.5 wounds to the enemy per wound you deal to yourself.
I'm not saying GK's nerfed smite is any good (and it's definitely not worth what GKs pay for it), but it's still worth casting, unless you're fighting conscripts.

 Aetare wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
I'm gonna sound like fething Tau player in 7th talking about nova wounds...

If you literally average out the smite wounds and perils over the course of the game for a unit, you will be trading somewhere 2.5 succesful smites, 1.5 failed, 1.5 perils. A single perils will kill more points of your own guys, than of your opponents. Unless they too are Grey Knights.

The only unit this does not hold true for is purifiers. Who are over costed by about 4 points per model.

Grey Knights don't deserve to be called a psychic army.

But hey let's take everything out of context like you did! Someone who doesn't play Grey Knights doesn't understand how few model we field. If we take barebone squads of cheapest unit possible, we only spit out 15 POSSIBLE smites per turn. Which is horrible.

Edit: if you could aim where the smite went or if we had a unnerfed smite range maybe that would be acceptable. Or if we didn't perils, or if we could get the supercharge version of smite. Or we manifested it easier.

I think you're being a little harsh on the guy, but really I think the big issue is that our Smite is capped at 1 Mortal Wound unless you're a Daemon. I had a Daemon player smite one of my Terminators for 5 Mortal Wounds in my last game. I'd need 5 entire units of Grey Knights successfully casting to pull that off. While his odds aren't huge for doing that every turn, mine are drastically smaller. Especially when you factor in that a Grey Knight army, since it's elite, will be fielding, what, 8 units? 10?

If you were playing against a Daemon list, wouldn't each smite do an automatic 3 mortal wounds if successful? I thought they were nerfed against all comers except our empyrean friends...

You're right, it does more to Daemons, which is why I said "unless you're a Daemon".

Grey Knights got nerfed? This is news to me. I saw them annihilate Nurgle marines, and the Dreadknight is grossly undercosted with what it can do. The strategy is obviously still "Bring 3 Dreadknights, win games". But you can also have your infantry annihilate whatever they touch with force weapons.

Forgive me if I am ignorant in this case but PAGKs don't seem awful when 10 can output 40 shots on turn 1 with precision deep strikes? It seems like you can apply fairly consistent pressure with the army with decent zone control by combining some deepstrike with some Razorbacks and then 3 DKs.

I've played against a list similar to that and found it to be an effective list that is capable of winning games.

If you try to play GK like you did in 7th you will struggle I think. Their power actually lies in strike squad marines and paladins - which were two of the worst units in the game in 7th. Dread-knights are nothing like they were in 7th. They aren't a bad option but dreadnoughts are better.

Getting into CC doesnt tie up units anymore so how is a dreadknight going to break an army with 4 CC attacks? The answer is - it wont. Plus it moves only 8 rather than 12 now. It's guns aren't great ether.

GK elite infantry units are better than whats in the space marine codex I can assure you - much better. We have access to their excellent predators and dreads - use them - win games.

Farseer_V2 wrote:
Forgive me if I am ignorant in this case but PAGKs don't seem awful when 10 can output 40 shots on turn 1 with precision deep strikes? It seems like you can apply fairly consistent pressure with the army with decent zone control by combining some deepstrike with some Razorbacks and then 3 DKs.

I've played against a list similar to that and found it to be an effective list that is capable of winning games.

Because those 40 shots have no AP whatsoever, and anything you shoot and actually wound will become immediately harder to charge to the point where it's smarter not to shoot, so you actually can charge.

If you look codex wise, you're far better off taking Death Company with jump packs. They will spit out 2 attacks each, 3 on the charge with black rage, for 30 attacks. They also have pistols that can fire while in combat, and can take power swords OR chainswords, so they can be more generally applicable. (5 power swords, 5 chainswords, that way you can chew through hordes better, but still kill stuff with a save).

Death Company outclass every single PAGK unit and are cheaper. Even if you factor in the smite, giving it the mortal wounds with 100% success and never periling.

You can always shoot something else and charge a closer target.

 Marmatag wrote:


Because those 40 shots have no AP whatsoever, and anything you shoot and actually wound will become immediately harder to charge to the point where it's smarter not to shoot, so you actually can charge.

If you look codex wise, you're far better off taking Death Company with jump packs. They will spit out 2 attacks each, 3 on the charge with black rage, for 30 attacks. They also have pistols that can fire while in combat, and can take power swords OR chainswords, so they can be more generally applicable. (5 power swords, 5 chainswords, that way you can chew through hordes better, but still kill stuff with a save).

Death Company outclass every single PAGK unit and are cheaper. Even if you factor in the smite, giving it the mortal wounds with 100% success and never periling.

I'm not quite sure I understand the need to assault after. 40 shots, with or without AP is still a high volume of fire power that is a very effective anti-horde choice. You say DC outclass them but your math shows DC get 30 S4 AP 0 attacks where GK get 40 S4 AP 0 attacks and then can possible OW with the same volume. Additionally the PAGK get their attacks guaranteed, no need to make a charge roll, no need to absorb OW, just land and shoot. That's a more reliable option for pumping out a high volume of attacks. None of this factors in possibly losing the charge with the DC where you drop to 20 attacks. As a further aside - why are you shooting at what you're assaulting? Shooting Unit A, assault Unit B.

I think ultimately you're looking at PAGK as a melee unit when, in my mind, they are very clearly a shooting unit.

You're also forgetting that BA can be multiplied by their HQs. And, in a vacuum, i'd rather my units be in assault, and have jump packs.

Anyway, since we're talking about them as a shooting unit:

3T 4T 5T
2+ 2.96 2.22 1.48
3+ 5.93 4.44 2.96
4+ 8.89 6.67 4.44
5+ 11.85 8.89 5.93
6+ 14.81 11.11 7.41

Formatting is pretty bad, but the point is, for the investment, it's not worth it.

Farseer_V2 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


Because those 40 shots have no AP whatsoever, and anything you shoot and actually wound will become immediately harder to charge to the point where it's smarter not to shoot, so you actually can charge.

If you look codex wise, you're far better off taking Death Company with jump packs. They will spit out 2 attacks each, 3 on the charge with black rage, for 30 attacks. They also have pistols that can fire while in combat, and can take power swords OR chainswords, so they can be more generally applicable. (5 power swords, 5 chainswords, that way you can chew through hordes better, but still kill stuff with a save).

Death Company outclass every single PAGK unit and are cheaper. Even if you factor in the smite, giving it the mortal wounds with 100% success and never periling.

I'm not quite sure I understand the need to assault after. 40 shots, with or without AP is still a high volume of fire power that is a very effective anti-horde choice. You say DC outclass them but your math shows DC get 30 S4 AP 0 attacks where GK get 40 S4 AP 0 attacks and then can possible OW with the same volume. Additionally the PAGK get their attacks guaranteed, no need to make a charge roll, no need to absorb OW, just land and shoot. That's a more reliable option for pumping out a high volume of attacks. None of this factors in possibly losing the charge with the DC where you drop to 20 attacks. As a further aside - why are you shooting at what you're assaulting? Shooting Unit A, assault Unit B.

I think ultimately you're looking at PAGK as a melee unit when, in my mind, they are very clearly a shooting unit.

But if we take that approach we see that they are a horrible shooting unit then. 200+ points for 40 Str 4 ap 0 shots is at best average efficiency. So what about the platform this shooting is on? It's just a marine, literally nothing special, very vulnerable, slow outside of deep strike, literally no psychic spell to augment their survivability or shooting. Unless they get the charge off with their force weapons very little damage is actually likely to happen for their points cost.

They don't really deserve 2 wounds, nor BS/WS 2+, the only fair change to them as a unit by themselves is to give them an extra attack; or maybe a free D3 inch move after deepstrike to represent their experience deepstriking.

Just watched a Necron v Grey Knight Battle report on youtube (on Tabletop Tactics which I highly recommend) and they did great. The smite power would be totally OP if it were more than one wound (They will destroy Demons) Dreadknights are tough, nimble and dish out the damage in both shooting and CC. I think the Grey Knights are looking good.

 Hollow wrote:
Just watched a Necron v Grey Knight Battle report on youtube (on Tabletop Tactics which I highly recommend) and they did great. The smite power would be totally OP if it were more than one wound (They will destroy Demons) Dreadknights are tough, nimble and dish out the damage in both shooting and CC. I think the Grey Knights are looking good.

You have to pay to watch this...Can you summarize?

 Marmatag wrote:
You're also forgetting that BA can be multiplied by their HQs. And, in a vacuum, i'd rather my units be in assault, and have jump packs.

Anyway, since we're talking about them as a shooting unit:

3T 4T 5T
2+ 2.96 2.22 1.48
3+ 5.93 4.44 2.96
4+ 8.89 6.67 4.44
5+ 11.85 8.89 5.93
6+ 14.81 11.11 7.41

Formatting is pretty bad, but the point is, for the investment, it's not worth it.

Cant GK also be buffed by hq. as well for the ba most of those buffs are in CC. getting into CC would be tough if you were buring your pistol shots unless there was a target near by. then you would need to make a nice 9" charge and on top of that weather an overwatch.

while GK can sit back relax and throw a ton of shots in the safety of perhaps some cover.

 Desubot wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
You're also forgetting that BA can be multiplied by their HQs. And, in a vacuum, i'd rather my units be in assault, and have jump packs.

Anyway, since we're talking about them as a shooting unit:

3T 4T 5T
2+ 2.96 2.22 1.48
3+ 5.93 4.44 2.96
4+ 8.89 6.67 4.44
5+ 11.85 8.89 5.93
6+ 14.81 11.11 7.41

Formatting is pretty bad, but the point is, for the investment, it's not worth it.

Cant GK also be buffed by hq. as well for the ba most of those buffs are in CC. getting into CC would be tough if you were buring your pistol shots unless there was a target near by. then you would need to make a nice 9" charge and on top of that weather an overwatch.

while GK can sit back relax and throw a ton of shots in the safety of perhaps some cover.

We can reroll 1s to hit, yeah, that is one buff. Our abilities are on par if we're fighting Daemons. But only if we're fighting daemons. And we can't reroll charge, they can.

And don't discount the pistols... having access to plasma is nice.

A dreadknight drops to solid AA like butter, and power armored grey Knights might as well be space marines with storm bolters, the rest is rather bad. Forcecweapons suck on a 1attack platform.

If you think they're good, your wrong.

 Marmatag wrote:


We can reroll 1s to hit, yeah, that is one buff. Our abilities are on par if we're fighting Daemons. But only if we're fighting daemons. And we can't reroll charge, they can.

I feel like they are not really meant to go balls deep into charge too quickly.

they should deepstrike into cover and be more focused on shooting rather than trying to get locked into combat (while having the option to be good in combat)

40 bolters is still no joke. its not like the previous way to wreck everyone's gak was to dump as many wounds on a thing as possible even without ap (scatterlasers)

Like always I don't think pure GK is a good army. But it basically never has been. I cannot think of a time when pure GK did anything competitively. In order to use them well I think they will be a supplement to an imperium force.

Breng77 wrote:
Like always I don't think pure GK is a good army. But it basically never has been. I cannot think of a time when pure GK did anything competitively. In order to use them well I think they will be a supplement to an imperium force.

What is 5th ed when they literally broke the game?

Breng77 wrote:
Like always I don't think pure GK is a good army. But it basically never has been. I cannot think of a time when pure GK did anything competitively. In order to use them well I think they will be a supplement to an imperium force.

5th edition would beg to differ on GK dominance

that said. I don't think GK are bad so far in 8th but they certainly seem to not be on the same level as necrons

have had a few games vs my orks they have been close and fun

 Desubot wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


We can reroll 1s to hit, yeah, that is one buff. Our abilities are on par if we're fighting Daemons. But only if we're fighting daemons. And we can't reroll charge, they can.

I feel like they are not really meant to go balls deep into charge too quickly.

they should deepstrike into cover and be more focused on shooting rather than trying to get locked into combat (while having the option to be good in combat)

40 bolters is still no joke. its not like the previous way to wreck everyone's gak was to dump as many wounds on a thing as possible even without ap (scatterlasers)

Deep strike into cover means you get charged first. You need to go first into CC or you'll never make it to CC.


Also those 40 bolters are on 3+ 1 wound models, and ten of them cost 210 points. They'll kill their 10 guardsmen before 4/5+ saves and then get shot off like tac marines.

I just realized that even our true Psyker units are limited by Rites of Banishment.

Meaning Grand Master Voldus has a pathetic smite, so does Draigo.

Jaxler wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Like always I don't think pure GK is a good army. But it basically never has been. I cannot think of a time when pure GK did anything competitively. In order to use them well I think they will be a supplement to an imperium force.

What is 5th ed when they literally broke the game?

G00fySmiley wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Like always I don't think pure GK is a good army. But it basically never has been. I cannot think of a time when pure GK did anything competitively. In order to use them well I think they will be a supplement to an imperium force.

5th edition would beg to differ on GK dominance

that said. I don't think GK are bad so far in 8th but they certainly seem to not be on the same level as necrons

have had a few games vs my orks they have been close and fun

What is Cotaez + inquisition was what made those lists competitive. Other than maybe Draigostar (which still usually used acolytes for other troop units) no list in 5th that did well was pure GK. They were all Cotaez + cheap troops in spam psybolt Razorbacks, with Spam Psybolt Dreads. Occasionally in certain formats Draigostar did decently. So the GK codex did well, but a pure GK army (especially power armor GK) never did very well.

 Jaxler wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


We can reroll 1s to hit, yeah, that is one buff. Our abilities are on par if we're fighting Daemons. But only if we're fighting daemons. And we can't reroll charge, they can.

I feel like they are not really meant to go balls deep into charge too quickly.

they should deepstrike into cover and be more focused on shooting rather than trying to get locked into combat (while having the option to be good in combat)

40 bolters is still no joke. its not like the previous way to wreck everyone's gak was to dump as many wounds on a thing as possible even without ap (scatterlasers)

Deep strike into cover means you get charged first. You need to go first into CC or you'll never make it to CC.


Also those 40 bolters are on 3+ 1 wound models, and ten of them cost 210 points. They'll kill their 10 guardsmen before 4/5+ saves and then get shot off like tac marines.

You realize if comparing them to tac marines its 130 points base but for 210 you get double the shots and dont have to take a drop pod and power weapons. they are dense in power for the slot and yeah they are still marines in power armor.

 Desubot wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


We can reroll 1s to hit, yeah, that is one buff. Our abilities are on par if we're fighting Daemons. But only if we're fighting daemons. And we can't reroll charge, they can.

I feel like they are not really meant to go balls deep into charge too quickly.

they should deepstrike into cover and be more focused on shooting rather than trying to get locked into combat (while having the option to be good in combat)

40 bolters is still no joke. its not like the previous way to wreck everyone's gak was to dump as many wounds on a thing as possible even without ap (scatterlasers)

Ah yes, the super fast, long range, CHEAP platform w/ higher str weapon. Horrible choice of argument.

 Quickjager wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


We can reroll 1s to hit, yeah, that is one buff. Our abilities are on par if we're fighting Daemons. But only if we're fighting daemons. And we can't reroll charge, they can.

I feel like they are not really meant to go balls deep into charge too quickly.

they should deepstrike into cover and be more focused on shooting rather than trying to get locked into combat (while having the option to be good in combat)

40 bolters is still no joke. its not like the previous way to wreck everyone's gak was to dump as many wounds on a thing as possible even without ap (scatterlasers)

Ah yes, the super fast, long range, CHEAP platform w/ higher str weapon. Horrible choice of argument.

its fine scatterspam is pretty much over now.

but the concept of dumping buckets of dice isnt.

40 is a pretty good number.

 Desubot wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


We can reroll 1s to hit, yeah, that is one buff. Our abilities are on par if we're fighting Daemons. But only if we're fighting daemons. And we can't reroll charge, they can.

I feel like they are not really meant to go balls deep into charge too quickly.

they should deepstrike into cover and be more focused on shooting rather than trying to get locked into combat (while having the option to be good in combat)

40 bolters is still no joke. its not like the previous way to wreck everyone's gak was to dump as many wounds on a thing as possible even without ap (scatterlasers)

Ah yes, the super fast, long range, CHEAP platform w/ higher str weapon. Horrible choice of argument.

its fine scatterspam is pretty much over now.

but the concept of dumping buckets of dice isnt.

40 is a pretty good number.

Until you run into anyone with transports, and when they see you're playing GK they put the transports in front.

 Marmatag wrote:

Until you run into anyone with transports, and when they see you're playing GK they put the transports in front.

Then you dont have to deep strike them in until after they pop out..

and if they all move forward then their back line objectives are open.

edit: @ jager yeah glad they cracked down on that for the most part. im sure we will see some BoD efferent units eventually.

I agree buckets of dice is good... if its on a good platform.

7th ed.

Wyvern
Scatbikes
HBC Riptide

6th ed.

Serpent Shield
Missile Suits
Tesla
Psybolt spam

But those buckets of dice came CHEAPLY. or on a durable platform with long range.

 Desubot wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


We can reroll 1s to hit, yeah, that is one buff. Our abilities are on par if we're fighting Daemons. But only if we're fighting daemons. And we can't reroll charge, they can.

I feel like they are not really meant to go balls deep into charge too quickly.

they should deepstrike into cover and be more focused on shooting rather than trying to get locked into combat (while having the option to be good in combat)

40 bolters is still no joke. its not like the previous way to wreck everyone's gak was to dump as many wounds on a thing as possible even without ap (scatterlasers)

Deep strike into cover means you get charged first. You need to go first into CC or you'll never make it to CC.


Also those 40 bolters are on 3+ 1 wound models, and ten of them cost 210 points. They'll kill their 10 guardsmen before 4/5+ saves and then get shot off like tac marines.

You realize if comparing them to tac marines its 130 points base but for 210 you get double the shots and dont have to take a drop pod and power weapons. they are dense in power for the slot and yeah they are still marines in power armor.

tacs are horrible, but unlike PAGKs they don't cost too much to fill out troop slots. youll only connect with 17 shots, and thats of your shooting at a guardsmen. Against a marine that's 13. Keep in mind you need to be within a foot, and this is before saves. Also most power armored grey Knights don't have deep strike, so most of the time you won't be a foot a way.

My comparison to tacs is that they die like tac marines. They are a 21-28 point model that drops of sneezed at, and need to be in rapid fire range to do anything. Explain to me how these guys aren't horrible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


We can reroll 1s to hit, yeah, that is one buff. Our abilities are on par if we're fighting Daemons. But only if we're fighting daemons. And we can't reroll charge, they can.

I feel like they are not really meant to go balls deep into charge too quickly.

they should deepstrike into cover and be more focused on shooting rather than trying to get locked into combat (while having the option to be good in combat)

40 bolters is still no joke. its not like the previous way to wreck everyone's gak was to dump as many wounds on a thing as possible even without ap (scatterlasers)

Ah yes, the super fast, long range, CHEAP platform w/ higher str weapon. Horrible choice of argument.

its fine scatterspam is pretty much over now.

but the concept of dumping buckets of dice isnt.

40 is a pretty good number.

40 is a useless number if you don't take into account range, (1 foot) price point (210 points minimum) and toughness (none) and mobility (little)

 Jaxler wrote:


tacs are horrible, but unlike PAGKs they don't cost too much to fill out troop slots. youll only connect with 17 shots, and thats of your shooting at a guardsmen. Against a marine that's 13. Keep in mind you need to be within a foot, and this is before saves. Also most power armored grey Knights don't have deep strike, so most of the time you won't be a foot a way.

My comparison to tacs is that they die like tac marines. They are a 21-28 point model that drops of sneezed at, and need to be in rapid fire range to do anything. Explain to me how these guys aren't horrible.

Unless they are being shot at by dedicated anti infantry shots they survive suprisingly well in cover. iv played a few games of 8th in which this was the case as i used them to hold objectives. shooting wise it was fine against generic infantry like chaos space marines. taking pot shots killing of a guy or two from not rapid fire range.

they are not meant for heavy killing. but double the shots and have a ton of power weapons i can see them being tactically flexible.

For 50 points less i could take a devastator squad with 4 missile launchers. It can hurt anything at a 48" range.

I can deploy it in cover to make it a 2+ save.
I don't have to deep strike it right into the teeth of my opponent's army
It can kill vehicles, creatures, etc, and can fire d6*4 shots at hordes.

So while yes, the strike squad can drop in, fire 40 shots, and die, the missile launcher squad has a bit more use...

Or take an Inceptor squad, you'll get 18 heavy bolter shots at 18", not 12", and you'll deal roughly the same amount of wounds to power armored T4 targets. And you have 2 wounds...

I know it's not an apples to apples comparison, but that's part of the point with grey knights, we have a bucket full of apples, everyone else has a fruit salad.

Strikes won't see any play still. They lack the ability to do a job and are too expensive on a ppm basis to be generalist. They got the gear, they don't have the stats to leverage it.

Same story as last edition, don't even get started on the other PAGK variants. Imo interceptors are the only ones worth considering due to their once again insane mobility.

 Desubot wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:


tacs are horrible, but unlike PAGKs they don't cost too much to fill out troop slots. youll only connect with 17 shots, and thats of your shooting at a guardsmen. Against a marine that's 13. Keep in mind you need to be within a foot, and this is before saves. Also most power armored grey Knights don't have deep strike, so most of the time you won't be a foot a way.

My comparison to tacs is that they die like tac marines. They are a 21-28 point model that drops of sneezed at, and need to be in rapid fire range to do anything. Explain to me how these guys aren't horrible.

Unless they are being shot at by dedicated anti infantry shots they survive suprisingly well in cover. iv played a few games of 8th in which this was the case as i used them to hold objectives. shooting wise it was fine against generic infantry like chaos space marines. taking pot shots killing of a guy or two from not rapid fire range.

they are not meant for heavy killing. but double the shots and have a ton of power weapons i can see them being tactically flexible.

"Tactically flexible" here means "outshot by dedicated shooting, out attacked by dedicated assault, and out generalized by cheaper and more mobile generalists" a model without purpose is a model with no use.

For the same price roughly I can have 5 terminators, all with deep strike and an extra attack each, with the same amount of wounds and an invuln. They may shoot less, but they can still charge from deep strike. They seem much better.

 Marmatag wrote:
For 50 points less i could take a devastator squad with 4 missile launchers. It can hurt anything at a 48" range.

I can deploy it in cover to make it a 2+ save.
I don't have to deep strike it right into the teeth of my opponent's army
It can kill vehicles, creatures, etc, and can fire d6*4 shots at hordes.

So while yes, the strike squad can drop in, fire 40 shots, and die, the missile launcher squad has a bit more use...

Or take an Inceptor squad, you'll get 18 heavy bolter shots at 18", not 12", and you'll deal roughly the same amount of wounds to power armored T4 targets. And you have 2 wounds...

I know it's not an apples to apples comparison, but that's part of the point with grey knights, we have a bucket full of apples, everyone else has a fruit salad.

but thats how everyone's troops are.
why take tacticals when you could take a dev squad

 Desubot wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
For 50 points less i could take a devastator squad with 4 missile launchers. It can hurt anything at a 48" range.

I can deploy it in cover to make it a 2+ save.
I don't have to deep strike it right into the teeth of my opponent's army
It can kill vehicles, creatures, etc, and can fire d6*4 shots at hordes.

So while yes, the strike squad can drop in, fire 40 shots, and die, the missile launcher squad has a bit more use...

Or take an Inceptor squad, you'll get 18 heavy bolter shots at 18", not 12", and you'll deal roughly the same amount of wounds to power armored T4 targets. And you have 2 wounds...

I know it's not an apples to apples comparison, but that's part of the point with grey knights, we have a bucket full of apples, everyone else has a fruit salad.

but thats how everyone's troops are.
why take tacticals when you could take a dev squad

It's different because we have terminators for troops who are vastly superior, and as such PAGKs are forced into specialist roles.

Squad of 5 terminators being 230 points.

half the shots of a 10 man power armor gk.

you traded in number of shots for more durability whats your point?

 Desubot wrote:
Squad of 5 terminators being 230 points.

half the shots of a 10 man power armor gk.

you traded in number of shots for more durability whats your point?

Durability, and deep strike. Also, you seem to think those 20 something bolter shots mean anything. At least the terminators will get close enough to rapid fire.

 Jaxler wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Squad of 5 terminators being 230 points.

half the shots of a 10 man power armor gk.

you traded in number of shots for more durability whats your point?

Durability, and deep strike. Also, you seem to think those 20 something bolter shots mean anything. At least the terminators will get close enough to rapid fire.

you realize that the majority of armies troops only ever do generic bolter shots right? point and click weapons are sparse in the troop section, usually they are all in the heavy slot or elite.

GK suffer from the same thing they always have. They have too many things going on. Their lack of specialization makes them expensive, but not really any more effective per point.

When you look at the tactical marine comparison GK are pointed extremely reasonably for what they get.

a Strike Squad comes in at 21 ppm
vs Tacticals at 13 ppm.

For those extra 8 points they get a Force weapon, Storm Bolter, Smite, Teleport strike, re-roll to wound against Daemons.

Which if you added all that to a marine the force sword + storm bolter alone would bring him up to 27 points per model, and he still wouldn't be a psyker, or be able to deepstrike. If we value deepstrike at say 3 ppm (basing on Kommandos vs boyz) that is 30 points, so GK based on abilities and upgrades would be fair at like 35 points each. The problem is that you often don't get a ton of use out of that stuff. If you just wanted a squad with storm bolters that could deepstrike the should be like 18 points.

They are super flexible units, but an entire army of units like that runs too pricey to be effective. I think using a squad or 2 in a imperium mixed force, or even a detachment of them has some value, but an entire army likely will struggle with damage output vs durability.

Breng77 wrote:

Jaxler wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Like always I don't think pure GK is a good army. But it basically never has been. I cannot think of a time when pure GK did anything competitively. In order to use them well I think they will be a supplement to an imperium force.

What is 5th ed when they literally broke the game?

G00fySmiley wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Like always I don't think pure GK is a good army. But it basically never has been. I cannot think of a time when pure GK did anything competitively. In order to use them well I think they will be a supplement to an imperium force.

5th edition would beg to differ on GK dominance

that said. I don't think GK are bad so far in 8th but they certainly seem to not be on the same level as necrons

have had a few games vs my orks they have been close and fun

What is Cotaez + inquisition was what made those lists competitive. Other than maybe Draigostar (which still usually used acolytes for other troop units) no list in 5th that did well was pure GK. They were all Cotaez + cheap troops in spam psybolt Razorbacks, with Spam Psybolt Dreads. Occasionally in certain formats Draigostar did decently. So the GK codex did well, but a pure GK army (especially power armor GK) never did very well.

draigostar was what was winning 5th. remember wound shenanagins paladins. 10 paladins with draigo, 2+ 3++ and 5+ FNP. had to put through 11 wounds to drop one.

this was actually one case where my orks were kind of powerful because we countered the saves with fist full of dice

 Desubot wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
For 50 points less i could take a devastator squad with 4 missile launchers. It can hurt anything at a 48" range.

I can deploy it in cover to make it a 2+ save.
I don't have to deep strike it right into the teeth of my opponent's army
It can kill vehicles, creatures, etc, and can fire d6*4 shots at hordes.

So while yes, the strike squad can drop in, fire 40 shots, and die, the missile launcher squad has a bit more use...

Or take an Inceptor squad, you'll get 18 heavy bolter shots at 18", not 12", and you'll deal roughly the same amount of wounds to power armored T4 targets. And you have 2 wounds...

I know it's not an apples to apples comparison, but that's part of the point with grey knights, we have a bucket full of apples, everyone else has a fruit salad.

but thats how everyone's troops are.
why take tacticals when you could take a dev squad

I didn't know there was a dev squad in the GK codex

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Jaxler wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Like always I don't think pure GK is a good army. But it basically never has been. I cannot think of a time when pure GK did anything competitively. In order to use them well I think they will be a supplement to an imperium force.

What is 5th ed when they literally broke the game?

G00fySmiley wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Like always I don't think pure GK is a good army. But it basically never has been. I cannot think of a time when pure GK did anything competitively. In order to use them well I think they will be a supplement to an imperium force.

5th edition would beg to differ on GK dominance

that said. I don't think GK are bad so far in 8th but they certainly seem to not be on the same level as necrons

have had a few games vs my orks they have been close and fun

What is Cotaez + inquisition was what made those lists competitive. Other than maybe Draigostar (which still usually used acolytes for other troop units) no list in 5th that did well was pure GK. They were all Cotaez + cheap troops in spam psybolt Razorbacks, with Spam Psybolt Dreads. Occasionally in certain formats Draigostar did decently. So the GK codex did well, but a pure GK army (especially power armor GK) never did very well.

draigostar was what was winning 5th. remember wound shenanagins paladins. 10 paladins with draigo, 2+ 3++ and 5+ FNP. had to put through 11 wounds to drop one.

this was actually one case where my orks were kind of powerful because we countered the saves with fist full of dice

Not really, only one person did well with Draigostar in 5th. What won most things was acolyte spam and psyfleman dreads. Further that performance was during events with KP as a major factor, because Draigostar was broken for KP, but not so much for other missions.

 Marmatag wrote:


I didn't know there was a dev squad in the GK codex

GKs dont have tacticals ether so you could probably correlate what im talkign about

 Marmatag wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
For 50 points less i could take a devastator squad with 4 missile launchers. It can hurt anything at a 48" range.

I can deploy it in cover to make it a 2+ save.
I don't have to deep strike it right into the teeth of my opponent's army
It can kill vehicles, creatures, etc, and can fire d6*4 shots at hordes.

So while yes, the strike squad can drop in, fire 40 shots, and die, the missile launcher squad has a bit more use...

Or take an Inceptor squad, you'll get 18 heavy bolter shots at 18", not 12", and you'll deal roughly the same amount of wounds to power armored T4 targets. And you have 2 wounds...

I know it's not an apples to apples comparison, but that's part of the point with grey knights, we have a bucket full of apples, everyone else has a fruit salad.

but thats how everyone's troops are.
why take tacticals when you could take a dev squad

I didn't know there was a dev squad in the GK codex

There are no codexes and you can ally in any imperium unit for free.

The title of this thread is absurd, because they are a lot better than in 7th edition. If the OP was thinking in 5th edition that is another story...

A full GK army (what I play) will struggle against horde armies just for pure attrition, but that is expected from an elite army. Even then, the army can put a LOT of dakka in the table if you want.

Otherwise, agaisnt medium-elite armies, GK will compete well:

The "nerfed" smite is VERY good when every unit in your army can use it. Remember, you can reroll a dice if you get perils (making them a lot less frequent than the 5,55% it would be otherwise) and you can use it in combat (that's the reason purifiers cost what they cost: they are beasts in cc).

A lot of people here are underestimating the 1D3 damage that EVERY weapon in our army has in cc (at least). That is huge against vehicles, MC, Terminators, etc. It means that against multi wound units (and in 8th edition there are a lot of them) our units count as having the double number of attacks.

I dont' see whats wrong with a unit that deep-strikes, carries 2 bolters a piece, with a force weapon that is also a Psyker for only 21 points a piece... in the troops section! . Seriously, some people here seems to need to learn to play 8th edition if they think the Strike Squad is bad... If 1 attack is not enough for you, equip them with falchions for free and they will get 2 attacks each at -2 AP (more than a lot of close combat oriented units have)

The only real nerf I see is in the detachment department: you need to play 2 HQ to get +3 command points and our HQ aare very expensive (I solve this playing Coteaz or an Inquisitor for my second HQ).

 Jaxler wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
For 50 points less i could take a devastator squad with 4 missile launchers. It can hurt anything at a 48" range.

I can deploy it in cover to make it a 2+ save.
I don't have to deep strike it right into the teeth of my opponent's army
It can kill vehicles, creatures, etc, and can fire d6*4 shots at hordes.

So while yes, the strike squad can drop in, fire 40 shots, and die, the missile launcher squad has a bit more use...

Or take an Inceptor squad, you'll get 18 heavy bolter shots at 18", not 12", and you'll deal roughly the same amount of wounds to power armored T4 targets. And you have 2 wounds...

I know it's not an apples to apples comparison, but that's part of the point with grey knights, we have a bucket full of apples, everyone else has a fruit salad.

but thats how everyone's troops are.
why take tacticals when you could take a dev squad

I didn't know there was a dev squad in the GK codex

There are no codexes and you can ally in any imperium unit for free.

I know i was making a joke. The point being once you start replacing GK units with stuff that's more useful / appropriately costed you stop being GK. That said, I do like that i can be Ultramarines + Dreadknight.

zinch wrote:
The title of this thread is absurd, because they are a lot better than in 7th edition. If the OP was thinking in 5th edition that is another story...

A full GK army (what I play) will struggle against horde armies just for pure attrition, but that is expected from an elite army. Even then, the army can put a LOT of dakka in the table if you want.

Otherwise, agaisnt medium-elite armies, GK will compete well:

The "nerfed" smite is VERY good when every unit in your army can use it. Remember, you can reroll a dice if you get perils (making them a lot less frequent than the 5,55% it would be otherwise) and you can use it in combat (that's the reason purifiers cost what they cost: they are beasts in cc).

A lot of people here are underestimating the 1D3 damage that EVERY weapon in our army has in cc (at least). That is huge against vehicles, MC, Terminators, etc. It means that against multi wound units (and in 8th edition there are a lot of them) our units count as having the double number of attacks.

I dont' see whats wrong with a unit that deep-strikes, carries 2 bolters a piece, with a force weapon that is also a Psyker for only 21 points a piece... in the troops section! . Seriously, some people here seems to need to learn to play 8th edition if they think the Strike Squad is bad... If 1 attack is not enough for you, equip them with falchions for free and they will get 2 attacks each at -2 AP (more than a lot of close combat oriented units have)

The only real nerf I see is in the detachment department: you need to play 2 HQ to get +3 command points and our HQ aare very expensive (I solve this playing Coteaz or an Inquisitor for my second HQ).

"Can't handle hordes well." In the third line you explained why we suck. Also, we need to get into CC to do anything. Our whole army requires to be within a foot to do anything at all. At best the opponent will get 1-2 turns to react and we will take 3 to really dig our teeth in. Also our CC guys may hit hard but die if they're charged first by any other other CC unit if, let's say that blob you attacked walks out of combat and those bulgrins come over to scratch your back. Or another blob charged you, hell the bulgrins may be overkill.

If your in rapid fire range, why wouldn't they just charge you?

First, not enough games have been played to determine what armies are nerfed, bad, OP etc. The new rules are different and I think a lot of people's first impressions will be wrong. Second, struggling against horde armies is not a nerf. All armies that are not also horde armies will have trouble because it is going to be a lot harder to kill lots of individual models now without blasts, flame template, and destroying a fleeing unit. An most horde armies will now be getting that 5+ or 6+ save against a lot of shooting now, and most have a way to mitigate morale. So, the fact that the Grey Knights may (and at this point no one really knows) be bad against hordes is irrelevant.

Then if you really want to complain lets take a look at your main line infantry v. mine as I play Thousand Sons. So a Strike Marine is 21 points after equipment. A Rubic Marine is 20 points after equipment, and we need to pay at least 43 points for one model in our squad, the sorcerer. You get your champion for free. So 10 of yours are 210 while 10 of mine are 223. Strike squad has double the shots, but our guns are ap -2 so lets call that a wash.(although more shots are much better against horde type armies) In close combat Rubic's have one attack with no ap, while the sorcerer has 2 with a force weapon. The Strike marines have one attack (two for champ) with basically the same weapon the sorcerer has, so much much better. Also why is your force weapons 0? Really, they couldn't even bee a token 1 or 2 points? Defensively, the Rubic's do have All is dust (+1 sv if attacked with damage 1) and a 5++, while the strike squad only has the same 3+ save. So advantage Rubic. Psykic, and keep in mind our legion are suppose to be the most psy originally and worship the psy god, our sorcerer gets to cast the "baby-smite", with no protection against perils and if he does the squad is losing 2D3 models due to the way the rules work. Our sorcerer can't cast anything else. The Strike squad can cast the same "baby-smite" more or less (read the Rites of Banishment anyone who disagrees). However, the Strike squad can take a normal spell as well, including the very awesome warp gate ability. Even with the rule of one, this is leaps better that the Thousand Son's sorcerer. And the Stike squad only loses D3 models to a peril, and can still case after that, where as if the sorcerer dies the Thousand Sons can't case anymore. So that is a huge advantage for the strike squad. Then you have the inate abilities that the strike squad has like auto deep strike (which I would kill for on my Rubics), and combat squad (situational but can be useful), and all the bonuses against damons (again situational). In addition you can take a special weapon (and have more than one choice) for every 5 models, while the Rubic can only take our one and only heavy weapon at 10 models. I know we can have all warpflamers, but those are 15 points per model, a squad with that would be 347 points. So in my opinion based on the above the strike squad is much better than the rubics for lesspoints, at least cost when the sorcerer is counted.

The long and short of it is that I would count your blessings because things could be worse for your army.

Wow you compared TWO bad units. Of course one will be worse.

 Xenomancers wrote:
If you try to play GK like you did in 7th you will struggle I think. Their power actually lies in strike squad marines and paladins - which were two of the worst units in the game in 7th. Dread-knights are nothing like they were in 7th. They aren't a bad option but dreadnoughts are better.

You know that doesn\t exactly inspire faith in GW balancing...Sounds more like cash grab "previously good units into bad since their sales are done and previously bad units into good units as they haven't sold all that much"...

 Jaxler wrote:

zinch wrote:
The title of this thread is absurd, because they are a lot better than in 7th edition. If the OP was thinking in 5th edition that is another story...

A full GK army (what I play) will struggle against horde armies just for pure attrition, but that is expected from an elite army. Even then, the army can put a LOT of dakka in the table if you want.

Otherwise, agaisnt medium-elite armies, GK will compete well:

The "nerfed" smite is VERY good when every unit in your army can use it. Remember, you can reroll a dice if you get perils (making them a lot less frequent than the 5,55% it would be otherwise) and you can use it in combat (that's the reason purifiers cost what they cost: they are beasts in cc).

A lot of people here are underestimating the 1D3 damage that EVERY weapon in our army has in cc (at least). That is huge against vehicles, MC, Terminators, etc. It means that against multi wound units (and in 8th edition there are a lot of them) our units count as having the double number of attacks.

I dont' see whats wrong with a unit that deep-strikes, carries 2 bolters a piece, with a force weapon that is also a Psyker for only 21 points a piece... in the troops section! . Seriously, some people here seems to need to learn to play 8th edition if they think the Strike Squad is bad... If 1 attack is not enough for you, equip them with falchions for free and they will get 2 attacks each at -2 AP (more than a lot of close combat oriented units have)

The only real nerf I see is in the detachment department: you need to play 2 HQ to get +3 command points and our HQ aare very expensive (I solve this playing Coteaz or an Inquisitor for my second HQ).

"Can't handle hordes well." In the third line you explained why we suck. Also, we need to get into CC to do anything. Our whole army requires to be within a foot to do anything at all. At best the opponent will get 1-2 turns to react and we will take 3 to really dig our teeth in. Also our CC guys may hit hard but die if they're charged first by any other other CC unit if, let's say that blob you attacked walks out of combat and those bulgrins come over to scratch your back. Or another blob charged you, hell the bulgrins may be overkill.

If your in rapid fire range, why wouldn't they just charge you?

Thats a non-sensicle argument, might as well get rid of all rapid fire weapons in that case.

The fact is that GK actually deals with hordes better now with double the shots. Yes its bolters, but you shoot enough bolters at something it dies, thats been true ever since back in the day.

You posts lead me to believe that, since its new, you dont understand the tactics of 8th edition. Of course they die if they're charged first, thats why you dont let them get charged or you charge yourself.

Again this is not 7th edition, whatever tactics you think you know in 7th, 6th, 5th etc; throw them out the window.

20 bolter shots from a 5 man squad at 12 inches is nothing to sneeze at, 40 with a 10 man with no upgrades, our weapons are as potent as ever, incinerators are still good, psycannons are better without salvo, even psilencers arent a bad choice due to potential damage output

It seems to me you're just looking to find bad things, and you're again comparing 8th to prior editions, which you cant do anymore, its a completly different game.

Grey knights are a lot better in 8th compared to other 8th edition armies, we have a fighting chance now as a solo force

We can get into combat much easier now, rhinos are fast and tough, as are interceptors, gate is always an option and terminators can actually turn 1 charge now after deep striking (sure its a 9 inch charge but better than before)

So 10 of yours are 210 while 10 of mine are 223. Strike squad has double the shots, but our guns are ap -2 so lets call that a wash.

Let's not, though.

If you shoot at a 2+ target, with -2 you're forcing 4+ saves.

Your expected wound total is 4 times bigger than ours.

No one in their right mind is going to trade a -2AP rapid fire gun for a 0AP raid fire gun with twice the shots.

The only time those extra shots are twice as effective is when we're shooting a target with 0 armor saves and is not in cover.

Guard with a cover save have a 4+ save. Against our guns, that's 50%, against yours, that's 16% save.

20 bolter shots from a 5 man squad at 12 inches is nothing to sneeze at, 40 with a 10 man with no upgrades, our weapons are as potent as ever, incinerators are still good, psycannons are better without salvo, even psilencers arent a bad choice due to potential damage output

Not sure if serious, incinerators can't hit if you deep strike, and lost wall of death. Psycannons and Psilencers are less than mediocre. The psilencer is decent solely because horde armies are super strong right now, but again, you're paying for the D3 damage which it doesn't really get to use.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eh, i'm being too negative. It would be helpful to have a grey knights tactics thread, I think.

My personal opinion is that the best way to run GK is with small squads of Paladins. On their own, they're threatening, and by splitting them into minimal squads (~150 points) you can deep strike all over and increase your odds of locking someone in combat, requiring that 9inches.

Also, more squads = more smites, and while that sucks against hordes, it would do well against other elite armies.

Dreadknights can take Gate of Infinity. Squads of paladins with dreadknights to selectively gate them might be cool.

I dunno.

Wall of death isnt needed, it does its D6 automatic hits instead of d3 that wall of death used to do, which is twice as good

Yes flamers cant hit if deep striking now, that would make them too good in general

 Marmatag wrote:
Why would you take PAGK when you can do anything better with Death Company? At least there i'll get some nice codex benefits like black rage and a 6+ FNP, as well as the ability to put a power fist or two in the squad, and take pistols that are FAR superior to storm bolters.
...

Can someone explain to me why you'd ever take interceptors over Death Company?

 Marmatag wrote:


Death Company outclass every single PAGK unit and are cheaper. Even if you factor in the smite, giving it the mortal wounds with 100% success and never periling.

You might want to spend some time over in the Blood Angels in 8th thread where BA players have been discussing for weeks how terrible the Death Company is now. Realize that everybody got nerfed to some degree with the edition change and the loss of quite a few faction specific rules. The mix of units may shift around but I suspect Grey Knights will be just fine say, a month from now, once more people have played more games and sorted some things out.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Wall of death isnt needed, it does its D6 automatic hits instead of d3 that wall of death used to do, which is twice as good

Yes flamers cant hit if deep striking now, that would make them too good in general

lol what? Flamers are kinda trash and suck killing most things.

 Blacksteel wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Why would you take PAGK when you can do anything better with Death Company? At least there i'll get some nice codex benefits like black rage and a 6+ FNP, as well as the ability to put a power fist or two in the squad, and take pistols that are FAR superior to storm bolters.
...

Can someone explain to me why you'd ever take interceptors over Death Company?

 Marmatag wrote:


Death Company outclass every single PAGK unit and are cheaper. Even if you factor in the smite, giving it the mortal wounds with 100% success and never periling.

You might want to spend some time over in the Blood Angels in 8th thread where BA players have been discussing for weeks how terrible the Death Company is now. Realize that everybody got nerfed to some degree with the edition change and the loss of quite a few faction specific rules. The mix of units may shift around but I suspect Grey Knights will be just fine say, a month from now, once more people have played more games and sorted some things out.

Nice avatar.

I actually have played with Death Company. They are a points efficient wrecking ball, and if you pair them with an HQ like Astorath or Lemartes they're a complete juggernaut.

While they're not overall as strong as they were in 7th, they're markedly better than a lot of other marines. 30 power sword attacks with rerolls is pretty nasty..

Question about Gate:

Can the psyker select himself?
Don't see why he should not be able to

Aeri wrote:
Question about Gate:

Can the psyker select himself?
Don't see why he should not be able to

He should be able to, yes. It doesn't seem to count as moving either so great to put on GK Purgation squads. They won't get the -1.

I would think it would be covered under the Reinforcements heading in the main rulebook on the movement phase page. That is where it says deepstrike(and others) counts as moving and therefore -1 for heavy weapons.

Applies to all models 'set up on the battlefield', in whatever phase. The wording of Gate of Infinity is 'remove that unit and set it up anywhere on the battlefield'.

Spartacus wrote:
I would think it would be covered under the Reinforcements heading in the main rulebook on the movement phase page. That is where it says deepstrike(and others) counts as moving and therefore -1 for heavy weapons.

Applies to all models 'set up on the battlefield', in whatever phase. The wording of Gate of Infinity is 'remove that unit and set it up anywhere on the battlefield'.

The -1 specifically says it only applies to units that arrive as reinforcements. "Units that arrive as reinforcements..." being the key language. The "setup on the battlefield" just says you can't Move or Advance, which you won't do anyway with Gate since it's in the Psychic Phase. There's nothing that says Gate counts as "arriving as reinforcements".

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Wall of death isnt needed, it does its D6 automatic hits instead of d3 that wall of death used to do, which is twice as good

Yes flamers cant hit if deep striking now, that would make them too good in general

Flamers lost ignore cover and for the most part have trash AP. Flamers are basically worthless in this edition except for their strong overwatch.

GK are pretty great when you use proper tactics. They can concentrate on a flank way easier than more numerous foes. Also, being able to perform multiple tasks is more valuable than before. You've got decent shooting and decent mellee capabilities and you're not forced to shoot at whatever you're going to charge. Furthermore, d3 weapons are pretty good vs tougher opponents.

So, in the end you've got a squad that can shoot something squishy with a storm-bolter and charge something tough to chop it down with their force weapons. And as you can concentrate your forces more easilly, they can deal a lot of damage in a certain area of the battlefield.

But there's a weakness. They're squishy for the points. And you got to mitigate this weakness. And you actually need to set everything more or less properly for your concentrated strike to be effective. Luckilly, deepstrike and transports help tremendously.

Yeah, cant say im loving the 8th edition for GK's,
They dont seem very flexible,

They seem great at taking down low model count armies, heroes/tanks/monsters,
Especially with smite, these guys might have the highest mortal wound count imo,

But thats where it stops,
Even a basic horde army is gonna give you trouble,
if your lucky enough to get a few rounds of shooting rapid fire (which is a big IF now with all the buffs to combat/charging), you may stand a chance... maybe,

I do like the idea of taking a standard SM Librarian, its actually cheaper and more powerful than normal when you make the change from force stave to warding stave, Also you get a fresh tree to start picking spells from, "Null Zone" cought..cough....cough,
But then again thats an anti hero slot that doesnt need filling with GK's,

I am curious what others thought about the newly improved psilencer,
im liking it, but still not sure its cost effective compared with other weaps.

==Edit==
I might be a little bias, im still feeling a little but hurt after learning a normal Dreadnaught powerfist does 3dmg and a dreadknight fist is only D3, should be the other way around, one is twice as tall with an actual arm, the other has a boxy metalic flesh light thingy

Chaos player here. I'm really sad for you guys, Codex SMs get the spell for killing Daemons, you get a 'moving units' spell that's a recipe for getting the caster killed, and you just got suckered into splitting the bill with UM & Fallen collectors to get Voldus. I miss when you had rules that made you slaughter Daemons BUT Daemons got recycled. It was a brilliant idea that made every matchup feel like a climactic showdown and I can't believe they not only left it out but gave you this mess of a list. Hope you get brought back up to scratch soon

I don't think grey knights are meant to shoot much this edition. I don't think it's all doom and gloom though:

-Draigo and Voldus hit on 2's and reroll 1's and they both have 5 attacks with 3dmg for 15 points of damage. Nothing has more than T8 right now so they are wounding on 3's and 4's with respectable AP. Hammerhand can bring one of them to a 2
+ or 3+ respectively.

-Brotherhood Champion in Sword Strike Stance and casting Hammerhand wounds anything in the game on a 4+ with 4 attacks d3 dmg anywhere from 4-12 dmg.

-Dreadknights do minimum dmg of 3 and up to 6 with the greathammer.

-Dreadknights with Hvy Psycannons have the potential to be decent character assassins as they can teleport in on positioning so that the enemy character hiding behind units is the closest model.

-Apothecaries healing terminator squads or bringing one back from the dead each turn. In a vanguard detachment, you could take 3 Apothecaries and 3 Paladin squads (which have 3 wounds each) and still get +1 Command Points.

-Purifiers loaded into Storm Ravens will be a thing. SR can deliver the Purifiers to the range band they need for D6 smites and you can stuff 2 units in one SR. Storm Ravens alone can put out a ton of firepower which can all split fire to the best targets.

TBF a Paladin squad with Apothecary & Ancient and a Brother-Captain can lay down four 24" Smites whilst taking a lot of punishment and utterly lock down hostile psykers, drop them into cover and us Lorgarian Empyrean Polytheists will quite have a job on our hands


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also has anyone noticed that Apothecaries can spend turn 2 ripping the progenitor organs out of a brother who died on turn 1 and then on turn 3 bring him back to life?

And you people call Fabius Bile the mad scientist

 lindsay40k wrote:
TBF a Paladin squad with Apothecary & Ancient and a Brother-Captain can lay down four 24" Smites whilst taking a lot of punishment and utterly lock down hostile psykers, drop them into cover and us Lorgarian Empyrean Polytheists will quite have a job on our hands


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also has anyone noticed that Apothecaries can spend turn 2 ripping the progenitor organs out of a brother who died on turn 1 and then on turn 3 bring him back to life?

And you people call Fabius Bile the mad scientist

Add Draigo and you're also rerolling all your hits for shooting and CC. Large unit though points wise, could end up being a large proportion of your forces in 1 unit?

As with other space marine armies (it seems) in 8th the best way to play them is to add vehicles (and buy razorbacks as transports for your vehicles...), remove every marine and add in cheaper harder hitting units like Scions or Admech.

Stop playing with psychic focus. It's a dumb rule. House rule it so psychic powers don't stack with themselves so you cannot cast the same power 5 times on a single enemy unit to stack debuffs but you could cast it on 5 different enemy units. It scales much better without getting broken.

I think GK are probably better than they have been in a long time, certainly better than Codex Dreadknight in the last edition.

Why?

They're better vs vehicles. After 5th ed Psycannon and Psyback spam, GK really sucked at dealing with vehicles.
The Nemesis Weapons now work better vs vehicles with 1d3 wounds, as does the Psilencer.
Dreadnoughts, Razorbacks and Stormravens are all massively improved as shooting platforms giving GK the fire support they haven't had for a long time

They're better vs infantry. Storm Bolters are Rapid Fire 2. Don't need to say much else here.

They're better in CC. Each squad can smite and Nemesis weapons do 1d3 damage.

Deep Striking is more reliable, when a large portion of your army can do this.

They're more durable. Well, sort of. Expensive T4/1W/3+ is still made out of paper, but with vehicles being more durable (and I can't see GK being played without them) and more versatile, it helps to make the army as a whole more durable.

So I'm going to totally shine my little ray of sunshine on this right now.

What the heck are you all talking about. I feel like grey Knights have gotten way better. With the ability to use way more of their units.

Ok first is our PAGK like strike squads. In 7th the only thing I would ever use these guys for is a super cheap easy to hide unit I could sit on an objective and hope no one sees them.
Now the way ap works as means they won't be blasted off the table in one shot. Yes on average they will hVe a reduced save. But that is a huge trade off instead of having no save at all due to a large blast ap3 or better weapon blowing them to bits in literally one shot.

We now for free get 2 extra shots at half range. What is their to complain about? I was used to having to deal with 2 shots per guy at that range and just hoping a wound would land. Now we doubled out firepower tat that range.

also our powers are way better. Now instead of having one or two units suck up all my warp charge. My whole army can cast powers. Smite is like just free mortal wounds. I wouldn't really care using it against hordes. But shooting that at lets say a MC or some heavily armored troops that's gonna hurt. Plus we have purge soul. Which I'm going to try and pop every hq I can get close enough with that power. Even little squad leaders and stuff. Any bring giving high leadership. Pop his head then pour storm bolted shots into his squad and make them take moral.

Paladins plus an apothecary are so much more tough now. Before a single blast with either ap2 or str 8 or God forbid both would insta kill a whol squad of Paladins. Ignoring their 2 wounds and fnp and 2+ save.

And lastly we have falchions for free! That means even the lowly strike squad now gets 2 attacks at ap -2. That's way better then they used to be.

How are you popping squad leaders with Purge Soul? It inflicts MW on units, not models.

A low model count army needing to get within 12" to be effective in a game that looks set to favour hordes and plasma doesn't sound great to me. Especially since a bunch of hordes can just set up a conga line to a Commissar or Dark Apostle and keep you well away from their boss.

 lindsay40k wrote:
How are you popping squad leaders with Purge Soul? It inflicts MW on units, not models.

A low model count army needing to get within 12" to be effective in a game that looks set to favour hordes and plasma doesn't sound great to me. Especially since a bunch of hordes can just set up a conga line to a Commissar or Dark Apostle and keep you well away from their boss.

Please correct me if I'm wrong (as I feel I am but can't find words to the contrary).

I believe he is popping HQ's and not squad leaders. This way they are characters and therefore separate units. The rules for characters where it says that they cannot be targetted unless they are the closest unit and specifically references the shooting phase (and is, in fact, in the shooting phase section of the rules).

There is nothing in the psychic phase that states you cannot target characters which are single units. So assuming purge soul says "target 1 unit" or some such, then you can pop HQ's all you want even if they're hiding in the middle of a squad. After all why would physical bodies block your mind bullets?

Ah I hadn't read that correctly. It is in fact the unit not the model. However you should still be able to pick out hqs. But we might have to wait for a faq since it's not shooting and you pick.

And we haven't needed to get into 12" range, we need to be in cc. That has always been our best place. We are not a heavy shooting army. So after I teleport my guys in the thick of it before charging I don't mind being able to lay down some crazy bolters fire. We used to at one point have psybolts and that's what made out shooting decent. Now with the extra shots we are decent again.

And people keep saying "what about hordes?" Well we have never been really anti horde. Or armor for that matter. The only time we were really good at anti horde was 5th Ed purifiers cleansing flame. To win against horde armies you have to be really extra clever. Really that's the whole point of grey Knights. They are so elite and you have so few but tough guys every single move needs to be thought out. We can't just throw squads into the meat grinder and see what happens. I love that style but it is harder.
I think the best two things we have for hordes is mass storm Bolter fire and probably storm Ravens. Storm Ravens can pump out a ridiculous amount of shots. And is tougher. I tried using storm Ravens in 7th. They never made it past turn 2 before they crashed and burned. Now they can deliver 6 terminators right next to a enemy and still blow the snot out of a target.

Why is everyone proposing the use of falchions on all GKs? Is +1 attack so important?

Bigfashizzel wrote:
Why is everyone proposing the use of falchions on all GKs? Is +1 attack so important?

Mathammer in the other GK thread says that falchions outperform other melee weapons except the hammers.

Like Xenomancer said, mix in some quad las or AC/Las Preds and/or some dual autocannon venerable dreads from SM if you need some anti vehicle at range.

 SirDalavar wrote:
Yeah, cant say im loving the 8th edition for GK's,
They dont seem very flexible,

They seem great at taking down low model count armies, heroes/tanks/monsters,
Especially with smite, these guys might have the highest mortal wound count imo,

Sorry if this is a silly question, but isn't that exactly what GKs are supposed to be for?

I could be wrong (I'm far from an expert on the fluff), but I didn't think GKs were sent to take on entire ork hordes or nid swarms.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 SirDalavar wrote:
Yeah, cant say im loving the 8th edition for GK's,
They dont seem very flexible,

They seem great at taking down low model count armies, heroes/tanks/monsters,
Especially with smite, these guys might have the highest mortal wound count imo,

Sorry if this is a silly question, but isn't that exactly what GKs are supposed to be for?

I could be wrong (I'm far from an expert on the fluff), but I didn't think GKs were sent to take on entire ork hordes or nid swarms.

Fluff-wise, you're right. They're an elite force for elite tasks.

Just causes some issues with gameplay as people try to field mono-GK forces and run into horde lists.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 SirDalavar wrote:
Yeah, cant say im loving the 8th edition for GK's,
They dont seem very flexible,

They seem great at taking down low model count armies, heroes/tanks/monsters,
Especially with smite, these guys might have the highest mortal wound count imo,

Sorry if this is a silly question, but isn't that exactly what GKs are supposed to be for?

I could be wrong (I'm far from an expert on the fluff), but I didn't think GKs were sent to take on entire ork hordes or nid swarms.

1st War of Armageddon, GK fought massed swarms of daemons. That's one specific fluff example.

SJ

Any advice on taking on horde armies as GK? Given Guard can drop 400 conscripts in a 1500 point game I don't know if I have enough bullets for that match. Help??