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Farseer_V2 wrote:
Forgive me if I am ignorant in this case but PAGKs don't seem awful when 10 can output 40 shots on turn 1 with precision deep strikes? It seems like you can apply fairly consistent pressure with the army with decent zone control by combining some deepstrike with some Razorbacks and then 3 DKs.

I've played against a list similar to that and found it to be an effective list that is capable of winning games.

Because those 40 shots have no AP whatsoever, and anything you shoot and actually wound will become immediately harder to charge to the point where it's smarter not to shoot, so you actually can charge.

If you look codex wise, you're far better off taking Death Company with jump packs. They will spit out 2 attacks each, 3 on the charge with black rage, for 30 attacks. They also have pistols that can fire while in combat, and can take power swords OR chainswords, so they can be more generally applicable. (5 power swords, 5 chainswords, that way you can chew through hordes better, but still kill stuff with a save).

Death Company outclass every single PAGK unit and are cheaper. Even if you factor in the smite, giving it the mortal wounds with 100% success and never periling.

You can always shoot something else and charge a closer target.

 Marmatag wrote:


Because those 40 shots have no AP whatsoever, and anything you shoot and actually wound will become immediately harder to charge to the point where it's smarter not to shoot, so you actually can charge.

If you look codex wise, you're far better off taking Death Company with jump packs. They will spit out 2 attacks each, 3 on the charge with black rage, for 30 attacks. They also have pistols that can fire while in combat, and can take power swords OR chainswords, so they can be more generally applicable. (5 power swords, 5 chainswords, that way you can chew through hordes better, but still kill stuff with a save).

Death Company outclass every single PAGK unit and are cheaper. Even if you factor in the smite, giving it the mortal wounds with 100% success and never periling.

I'm not quite sure I understand the need to assault after. 40 shots, with or without AP is still a high volume of fire power that is a very effective anti-horde choice. You say DC outclass them but your math shows DC get 30 S4 AP 0 attacks where GK get 40 S4 AP 0 attacks and then can possible OW with the same volume. Additionally the PAGK get their attacks guaranteed, no need to make a charge roll, no need to absorb OW, just land and shoot. That's a more reliable option for pumping out a high volume of attacks. None of this factors in possibly losing the charge with the DC where you drop to 20 attacks. As a further aside - why are you shooting at what you're assaulting? Shooting Unit A, assault Unit B.

I think ultimately you're looking at PAGK as a melee unit when, in my mind, they are very clearly a shooting unit.

You're also forgetting that BA can be multiplied by their HQs. And, in a vacuum, i'd rather my units be in assault, and have jump packs.

Anyway, since we're talking about them as a shooting unit:

3T 4T 5T
2+ 2.96 2.22 1.48
3+ 5.93 4.44 2.96
4+ 8.89 6.67 4.44
5+ 11.85 8.89 5.93
6+ 14.81 11.11 7.41

Formatting is pretty bad, but the point is, for the investment, it's not worth it.

Farseer_V2 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


Because those 40 shots have no AP whatsoever, and anything you shoot and actually wound will become immediately harder to charge to the point where it's smarter not to shoot, so you actually can charge.

If you look codex wise, you're far better off taking Death Company with jump packs. They will spit out 2 attacks each, 3 on the charge with black rage, for 30 attacks. They also have pistols that can fire while in combat, and can take power swords OR chainswords, so they can be more generally applicable. (5 power swords, 5 chainswords, that way you can chew through hordes better, but still kill stuff with a save).

Death Company outclass every single PAGK unit and are cheaper. Even if you factor in the smite, giving it the mortal wounds with 100% success and never periling.

I'm not quite sure I understand the need to assault after. 40 shots, with or without AP is still a high volume of fire power that is a very effective anti-horde choice. You say DC outclass them but your math shows DC get 30 S4 AP 0 attacks where GK get 40 S4 AP 0 attacks and then can possible OW with the same volume. Additionally the PAGK get their attacks guaranteed, no need to make a charge roll, no need to absorb OW, just land and shoot. That's a more reliable option for pumping out a high volume of attacks. None of this factors in possibly losing the charge with the DC where you drop to 20 attacks. As a further aside - why are you shooting at what you're assaulting? Shooting Unit A, assault Unit B.

I think ultimately you're looking at PAGK as a melee unit when, in my mind, they are very clearly a shooting unit.

But if we take that approach we see that they are a horrible shooting unit then. 200+ points for 40 Str 4 ap 0 shots is at best average efficiency. So what about the platform this shooting is on? It's just a marine, literally nothing special, very vulnerable, slow outside of deep strike, literally no psychic spell to augment their survivability or shooting. Unless they get the charge off with their force weapons very little damage is actually likely to happen for their points cost.

They don't really deserve 2 wounds, nor BS/WS 2+, the only fair change to them as a unit by themselves is to give them an extra attack; or maybe a free D3 inch move after deepstrike to represent their experience deepstriking.

Just watched a Necron v Grey Knight Battle report on youtube (on Tabletop Tactics which I highly recommend) and they did great. The smite power would be totally OP if it were more than one wound (They will destroy Demons) Dreadknights are tough, nimble and dish out the damage in both shooting and CC. I think the Grey Knights are looking good.

 Hollow wrote:
Just watched a Necron v Grey Knight Battle report on youtube (on Tabletop Tactics which I highly recommend) and they did great. The smite power would be totally OP if it were more than one wound (They will destroy Demons) Dreadknights are tough, nimble and dish out the damage in both shooting and CC. I think the Grey Knights are looking good.

You have to pay to watch this...Can you summarize?

 Marmatag wrote:
You're also forgetting that BA can be multiplied by their HQs. And, in a vacuum, i'd rather my units be in assault, and have jump packs.

Anyway, since we're talking about them as a shooting unit:

3T 4T 5T
2+ 2.96 2.22 1.48
3+ 5.93 4.44 2.96
4+ 8.89 6.67 4.44
5+ 11.85 8.89 5.93
6+ 14.81 11.11 7.41

Formatting is pretty bad, but the point is, for the investment, it's not worth it.

Cant GK also be buffed by hq. as well for the ba most of those buffs are in CC. getting into CC would be tough if you were buring your pistol shots unless there was a target near by. then you would need to make a nice 9" charge and on top of that weather an overwatch.

while GK can sit back relax and throw a ton of shots in the safety of perhaps some cover.

 Desubot wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
You're also forgetting that BA can be multiplied by their HQs. And, in a vacuum, i'd rather my units be in assault, and have jump packs.

Anyway, since we're talking about them as a shooting unit:

3T 4T 5T
2+ 2.96 2.22 1.48
3+ 5.93 4.44 2.96
4+ 8.89 6.67 4.44
5+ 11.85 8.89 5.93
6+ 14.81 11.11 7.41

Formatting is pretty bad, but the point is, for the investment, it's not worth it.

Cant GK also be buffed by hq. as well for the ba most of those buffs are in CC. getting into CC would be tough if you were buring your pistol shots unless there was a target near by. then you would need to make a nice 9" charge and on top of that weather an overwatch.

while GK can sit back relax and throw a ton of shots in the safety of perhaps some cover.

We can reroll 1s to hit, yeah, that is one buff. Our abilities are on par if we're fighting Daemons. But only if we're fighting daemons. And we can't reroll charge, they can.

And don't discount the pistols... having access to plasma is nice.

A dreadknight drops to solid AA like butter, and power armored grey Knights might as well be space marines with storm bolters, the rest is rather bad. Forcecweapons suck on a 1attack platform.

If you think they're good, your wrong.

 Marmatag wrote:


We can reroll 1s to hit, yeah, that is one buff. Our abilities are on par if we're fighting Daemons. But only if we're fighting daemons. And we can't reroll charge, they can.

I feel like they are not really meant to go balls deep into charge too quickly.

they should deepstrike into cover and be more focused on shooting rather than trying to get locked into combat (while having the option to be good in combat)

40 bolters is still no joke. its not like the previous way to wreck everyone's gak was to dump as many wounds on a thing as possible even without ap (scatterlasers)

Like always I don't think pure GK is a good army. But it basically never has been. I cannot think of a time when pure GK did anything competitively. In order to use them well I think they will be a supplement to an imperium force.

Breng77 wrote:
Like always I don't think pure GK is a good army. But it basically never has been. I cannot think of a time when pure GK did anything competitively. In order to use them well I think they will be a supplement to an imperium force.

What is 5th ed when they literally broke the game?

Breng77 wrote:
Like always I don't think pure GK is a good army. But it basically never has been. I cannot think of a time when pure GK did anything competitively. In order to use them well I think they will be a supplement to an imperium force.

5th edition would beg to differ on GK dominance

that said. I don't think GK are bad so far in 8th but they certainly seem to not be on the same level as necrons

have had a few games vs my orks they have been close and fun

 Desubot wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


We can reroll 1s to hit, yeah, that is one buff. Our abilities are on par if we're fighting Daemons. But only if we're fighting daemons. And we can't reroll charge, they can.

I feel like they are not really meant to go balls deep into charge too quickly.

they should deepstrike into cover and be more focused on shooting rather than trying to get locked into combat (while having the option to be good in combat)

40 bolters is still no joke. its not like the previous way to wreck everyone's gak was to dump as many wounds on a thing as possible even without ap (scatterlasers)

Deep strike into cover means you get charged first. You need to go first into CC or you'll never make it to CC.


Also those 40 bolters are on 3+ 1 wound models, and ten of them cost 210 points. They'll kill their 10 guardsmen before 4/5+ saves and then get shot off like tac marines.

I just realized that even our true Psyker units are limited by Rites of Banishment.

Meaning Grand Master Voldus has a pathetic smite, so does Draigo.

Jaxler wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Like always I don't think pure GK is a good army. But it basically never has been. I cannot think of a time when pure GK did anything competitively. In order to use them well I think they will be a supplement to an imperium force.

What is 5th ed when they literally broke the game?

G00fySmiley wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Like always I don't think pure GK is a good army. But it basically never has been. I cannot think of a time when pure GK did anything competitively. In order to use them well I think they will be a supplement to an imperium force.

5th edition would beg to differ on GK dominance

that said. I don't think GK are bad so far in 8th but they certainly seem to not be on the same level as necrons

have had a few games vs my orks they have been close and fun

What is Cotaez + inquisition was what made those lists competitive. Other than maybe Draigostar (which still usually used acolytes for other troop units) no list in 5th that did well was pure GK. They were all Cotaez + cheap troops in spam psybolt Razorbacks, with Spam Psybolt Dreads. Occasionally in certain formats Draigostar did decently. So the GK codex did well, but a pure GK army (especially power armor GK) never did very well.

 Jaxler wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


We can reroll 1s to hit, yeah, that is one buff. Our abilities are on par if we're fighting Daemons. But only if we're fighting daemons. And we can't reroll charge, they can.

I feel like they are not really meant to go balls deep into charge too quickly.

they should deepstrike into cover and be more focused on shooting rather than trying to get locked into combat (while having the option to be good in combat)

40 bolters is still no joke. its not like the previous way to wreck everyone's gak was to dump as many wounds on a thing as possible even without ap (scatterlasers)

Deep strike into cover means you get charged first. You need to go first into CC or you'll never make it to CC.


Also those 40 bolters are on 3+ 1 wound models, and ten of them cost 210 points. They'll kill their 10 guardsmen before 4/5+ saves and then get shot off like tac marines.

You realize if comparing them to tac marines its 130 points base but for 210 you get double the shots and dont have to take a drop pod and power weapons. they are dense in power for the slot and yeah they are still marines in power armor.

 Desubot wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


We can reroll 1s to hit, yeah, that is one buff. Our abilities are on par if we're fighting Daemons. But only if we're fighting daemons. And we can't reroll charge, they can.

I feel like they are not really meant to go balls deep into charge too quickly.

they should deepstrike into cover and be more focused on shooting rather than trying to get locked into combat (while having the option to be good in combat)

40 bolters is still no joke. its not like the previous way to wreck everyone's gak was to dump as many wounds on a thing as possible even without ap (scatterlasers)

Ah yes, the super fast, long range, CHEAP platform w/ higher str weapon. Horrible choice of argument.

 Quickjager wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


We can reroll 1s to hit, yeah, that is one buff. Our abilities are on par if we're fighting Daemons. But only if we're fighting daemons. And we can't reroll charge, they can.

I feel like they are not really meant to go balls deep into charge too quickly.

they should deepstrike into cover and be more focused on shooting rather than trying to get locked into combat (while having the option to be good in combat)

40 bolters is still no joke. its not like the previous way to wreck everyone's gak was to dump as many wounds on a thing as possible even without ap (scatterlasers)

Ah yes, the super fast, long range, CHEAP platform w/ higher str weapon. Horrible choice of argument.

its fine scatterspam is pretty much over now.

but the concept of dumping buckets of dice isnt.

40 is a pretty good number.

 Desubot wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


We can reroll 1s to hit, yeah, that is one buff. Our abilities are on par if we're fighting Daemons. But only if we're fighting daemons. And we can't reroll charge, they can.

I feel like they are not really meant to go balls deep into charge too quickly.

they should deepstrike into cover and be more focused on shooting rather than trying to get locked into combat (while having the option to be good in combat)

40 bolters is still no joke. its not like the previous way to wreck everyone's gak was to dump as many wounds on a thing as possible even without ap (scatterlasers)

Ah yes, the super fast, long range, CHEAP platform w/ higher str weapon. Horrible choice of argument.

its fine scatterspam is pretty much over now.

but the concept of dumping buckets of dice isnt.

40 is a pretty good number.

Until you run into anyone with transports, and when they see you're playing GK they put the transports in front.

 Marmatag wrote:

Until you run into anyone with transports, and when they see you're playing GK they put the transports in front.

Then you dont have to deep strike them in until after they pop out..

and if they all move forward then their back line objectives are open.

edit: @ jager yeah glad they cracked down on that for the most part. im sure we will see some BoD efferent units eventually.

I agree buckets of dice is good... if its on a good platform.

7th ed.

Wyvern
Scatbikes
HBC Riptide

6th ed.

Serpent Shield
Missile Suits
Tesla
Psybolt spam

But those buckets of dice came CHEAPLY. or on a durable platform with long range.

 Desubot wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


We can reroll 1s to hit, yeah, that is one buff. Our abilities are on par if we're fighting Daemons. But only if we're fighting daemons. And we can't reroll charge, they can.

I feel like they are not really meant to go balls deep into charge too quickly.

they should deepstrike into cover and be more focused on shooting rather than trying to get locked into combat (while having the option to be good in combat)

40 bolters is still no joke. its not like the previous way to wreck everyone's gak was to dump as many wounds on a thing as possible even without ap (scatterlasers)

Deep strike into cover means you get charged first. You need to go first into CC or you'll never make it to CC.


Also those 40 bolters are on 3+ 1 wound models, and ten of them cost 210 points. They'll kill their 10 guardsmen before 4/5+ saves and then get shot off like tac marines.

You realize if comparing them to tac marines its 130 points base but for 210 you get double the shots and dont have to take a drop pod and power weapons. they are dense in power for the slot and yeah they are still marines in power armor.

tacs are horrible, but unlike PAGKs they don't cost too much to fill out troop slots. youll only connect with 17 shots, and thats of your shooting at a guardsmen. Against a marine that's 13. Keep in mind you need to be within a foot, and this is before saves. Also most power armored grey Knights don't have deep strike, so most of the time you won't be a foot a way.

My comparison to tacs is that they die like tac marines. They are a 21-28 point model that drops of sneezed at, and need to be in rapid fire range to do anything. Explain to me how these guys aren't horrible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


We can reroll 1s to hit, yeah, that is one buff. Our abilities are on par if we're fighting Daemons. But only if we're fighting daemons. And we can't reroll charge, they can.

I feel like they are not really meant to go balls deep into charge too quickly.

they should deepstrike into cover and be more focused on shooting rather than trying to get locked into combat (while having the option to be good in combat)

40 bolters is still no joke. its not like the previous way to wreck everyone's gak was to dump as many wounds on a thing as possible even without ap (scatterlasers)

Ah yes, the super fast, long range, CHEAP platform w/ higher str weapon. Horrible choice of argument.

its fine scatterspam is pretty much over now.

but the concept of dumping buckets of dice isnt.

40 is a pretty good number.

40 is a useless number if you don't take into account range, (1 foot) price point (210 points minimum) and toughness (none) and mobility (little)

 Jaxler wrote:


tacs are horrible, but unlike PAGKs they don't cost too much to fill out troop slots. youll only connect with 17 shots, and thats of your shooting at a guardsmen. Against a marine that's 13. Keep in mind you need to be within a foot, and this is before saves. Also most power armored grey Knights don't have deep strike, so most of the time you won't be a foot a way.

My comparison to tacs is that they die like tac marines. They are a 21-28 point model that drops of sneezed at, and need to be in rapid fire range to do anything. Explain to me how these guys aren't horrible.

Unless they are being shot at by dedicated anti infantry shots they survive suprisingly well in cover. iv played a few games of 8th in which this was the case as i used them to hold objectives. shooting wise it was fine against generic infantry like chaos space marines. taking pot shots killing of a guy or two from not rapid fire range.

they are not meant for heavy killing. but double the shots and have a ton of power weapons i can see them being tactically flexible.

For 50 points less i could take a devastator squad with 4 missile launchers. It can hurt anything at a 48" range.

I can deploy it in cover to make it a 2+ save.
I don't have to deep strike it right into the teeth of my opponent's army
It can kill vehicles, creatures, etc, and can fire d6*4 shots at hordes.

So while yes, the strike squad can drop in, fire 40 shots, and die, the missile launcher squad has a bit more use...

Or take an Inceptor squad, you'll get 18 heavy bolter shots at 18", not 12", and you'll deal roughly the same amount of wounds to power armored T4 targets. And you have 2 wounds...

I know it's not an apples to apples comparison, but that's part of the point with grey knights, we have a bucket full of apples, everyone else has a fruit salad.

Strikes won't see any play still. They lack the ability to do a job and are too expensive on a ppm basis to be generalist. They got the gear, they don't have the stats to leverage it.

Same story as last edition, don't even get started on the other PAGK variants. Imo interceptors are the only ones worth considering due to their once again insane mobility.

 Desubot wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:


tacs are horrible, but unlike PAGKs they don't cost too much to fill out troop slots. youll only connect with 17 shots, and thats of your shooting at a guardsmen. Against a marine that's 13. Keep in mind you need to be within a foot, and this is before saves. Also most power armored grey Knights don't have deep strike, so most of the time you won't be a foot a way.

My comparison to tacs is that they die like tac marines. They are a 21-28 point model that drops of sneezed at, and need to be in rapid fire range to do anything. Explain to me how these guys aren't horrible.

Unless they are being shot at by dedicated anti infantry shots they survive suprisingly well in cover. iv played a few games of 8th in which this was the case as i used them to hold objectives. shooting wise it was fine against generic infantry like chaos space marines. taking pot shots killing of a guy or two from not rapid fire range.

they are not meant for heavy killing. but double the shots and have a ton of power weapons i can see them being tactically flexible.

"Tactically flexible" here means "outshot by dedicated shooting, out attacked by dedicated assault, and out generalized by cheaper and more mobile generalists" a model without purpose is a model with no use.

For the same price roughly I can have 5 terminators, all with deep strike and an extra attack each, with the same amount of wounds and an invuln. They may shoot less, but they can still charge from deep strike. They seem much better.

 Marmatag wrote:
For 50 points less i could take a devastator squad with 4 missile launchers. It can hurt anything at a 48" range.

I can deploy it in cover to make it a 2+ save.
I don't have to deep strike it right into the teeth of my opponent's army
It can kill vehicles, creatures, etc, and can fire d6*4 shots at hordes.

So while yes, the strike squad can drop in, fire 40 shots, and die, the missile launcher squad has a bit more use...

Or take an Inceptor squad, you'll get 18 heavy bolter shots at 18", not 12", and you'll deal roughly the same amount of wounds to power armored T4 targets. And you have 2 wounds...

I know it's not an apples to apples comparison, but that's part of the point with grey knights, we have a bucket full of apples, everyone else has a fruit salad.

but thats how everyone's troops are.
why take tacticals when you could take a dev squad

 Desubot wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
For 50 points less i could take a devastator squad with 4 missile launchers. It can hurt anything at a 48" range.

I can deploy it in cover to make it a 2+ save.
I don't have to deep strike it right into the teeth of my opponent's army
It can kill vehicles, creatures, etc, and can fire d6*4 shots at hordes.

So while yes, the strike squad can drop in, fire 40 shots, and die, the missile launcher squad has a bit more use...

Or take an Inceptor squad, you'll get 18 heavy bolter shots at 18", not 12", and you'll deal roughly the same amount of wounds to power armored T4 targets. And you have 2 wounds...

I know it's not an apples to apples comparison, but that's part of the point with grey knights, we have a bucket full of apples, everyone else has a fruit salad.

but thats how everyone's troops are.
why take tacticals when you could take a dev squad

It's different because we have terminators for troops who are vastly superior, and as such PAGKs are forced into specialist roles.