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Squad of 5 terminators being 230 points.

half the shots of a 10 man power armor gk.

you traded in number of shots for more durability whats your point?

 Desubot wrote:
Squad of 5 terminators being 230 points.

half the shots of a 10 man power armor gk.

you traded in number of shots for more durability whats your point?

Durability, and deep strike. Also, you seem to think those 20 something bolter shots mean anything. At least the terminators will get close enough to rapid fire.

 Jaxler wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Squad of 5 terminators being 230 points.

half the shots of a 10 man power armor gk.

you traded in number of shots for more durability whats your point?

Durability, and deep strike. Also, you seem to think those 20 something bolter shots mean anything. At least the terminators will get close enough to rapid fire.

you realize that the majority of armies troops only ever do generic bolter shots right? point and click weapons are sparse in the troop section, usually they are all in the heavy slot or elite.

GK suffer from the same thing they always have. They have too many things going on. Their lack of specialization makes them expensive, but not really any more effective per point.

When you look at the tactical marine comparison GK are pointed extremely reasonably for what they get.

a Strike Squad comes in at 21 ppm
vs Tacticals at 13 ppm.

For those extra 8 points they get a Force weapon, Storm Bolter, Smite, Teleport strike, re-roll to wound against Daemons.

Which if you added all that to a marine the force sword + storm bolter alone would bring him up to 27 points per model, and he still wouldn't be a psyker, or be able to deepstrike. If we value deepstrike at say 3 ppm (basing on Kommandos vs boyz) that is 30 points, so GK based on abilities and upgrades would be fair at like 35 points each. The problem is that you often don't get a ton of use out of that stuff. If you just wanted a squad with storm bolters that could deepstrike the should be like 18 points.

They are super flexible units, but an entire army of units like that runs too pricey to be effective. I think using a squad or 2 in a imperium mixed force, or even a detachment of them has some value, but an entire army likely will struggle with damage output vs durability.

Breng77 wrote:

Jaxler wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Like always I don't think pure GK is a good army. But it basically never has been. I cannot think of a time when pure GK did anything competitively. In order to use them well I think they will be a supplement to an imperium force.

What is 5th ed when they literally broke the game?

G00fySmiley wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Like always I don't think pure GK is a good army. But it basically never has been. I cannot think of a time when pure GK did anything competitively. In order to use them well I think they will be a supplement to an imperium force.

5th edition would beg to differ on GK dominance

that said. I don't think GK are bad so far in 8th but they certainly seem to not be on the same level as necrons

have had a few games vs my orks they have been close and fun

What is Cotaez + inquisition was what made those lists competitive. Other than maybe Draigostar (which still usually used acolytes for other troop units) no list in 5th that did well was pure GK. They were all Cotaez + cheap troops in spam psybolt Razorbacks, with Spam Psybolt Dreads. Occasionally in certain formats Draigostar did decently. So the GK codex did well, but a pure GK army (especially power armor GK) never did very well.

draigostar was what was winning 5th. remember wound shenanagins paladins. 10 paladins with draigo, 2+ 3++ and 5+ FNP. had to put through 11 wounds to drop one.

this was actually one case where my orks were kind of powerful because we countered the saves with fist full of dice

 Desubot wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
For 50 points less i could take a devastator squad with 4 missile launchers. It can hurt anything at a 48" range.

I can deploy it in cover to make it a 2+ save.
I don't have to deep strike it right into the teeth of my opponent's army
It can kill vehicles, creatures, etc, and can fire d6*4 shots at hordes.

So while yes, the strike squad can drop in, fire 40 shots, and die, the missile launcher squad has a bit more use...

Or take an Inceptor squad, you'll get 18 heavy bolter shots at 18", not 12", and you'll deal roughly the same amount of wounds to power armored T4 targets. And you have 2 wounds...

I know it's not an apples to apples comparison, but that's part of the point with grey knights, we have a bucket full of apples, everyone else has a fruit salad.

but thats how everyone's troops are.
why take tacticals when you could take a dev squad

I didn't know there was a dev squad in the GK codex

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Jaxler wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Like always I don't think pure GK is a good army. But it basically never has been. I cannot think of a time when pure GK did anything competitively. In order to use them well I think they will be a supplement to an imperium force.

What is 5th ed when they literally broke the game?

G00fySmiley wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Like always I don't think pure GK is a good army. But it basically never has been. I cannot think of a time when pure GK did anything competitively. In order to use them well I think they will be a supplement to an imperium force.

5th edition would beg to differ on GK dominance

that said. I don't think GK are bad so far in 8th but they certainly seem to not be on the same level as necrons

have had a few games vs my orks they have been close and fun

What is Cotaez + inquisition was what made those lists competitive. Other than maybe Draigostar (which still usually used acolytes for other troop units) no list in 5th that did well was pure GK. They were all Cotaez + cheap troops in spam psybolt Razorbacks, with Spam Psybolt Dreads. Occasionally in certain formats Draigostar did decently. So the GK codex did well, but a pure GK army (especially power armor GK) never did very well.

draigostar was what was winning 5th. remember wound shenanagins paladins. 10 paladins with draigo, 2+ 3++ and 5+ FNP. had to put through 11 wounds to drop one.

this was actually one case where my orks were kind of powerful because we countered the saves with fist full of dice

Not really, only one person did well with Draigostar in 5th. What won most things was acolyte spam and psyfleman dreads. Further that performance was during events with KP as a major factor, because Draigostar was broken for KP, but not so much for other missions.

 Marmatag wrote:


I didn't know there was a dev squad in the GK codex

GKs dont have tacticals ether so you could probably correlate what im talkign about

 Marmatag wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
For 50 points less i could take a devastator squad with 4 missile launchers. It can hurt anything at a 48" range.

I can deploy it in cover to make it a 2+ save.
I don't have to deep strike it right into the teeth of my opponent's army
It can kill vehicles, creatures, etc, and can fire d6*4 shots at hordes.

So while yes, the strike squad can drop in, fire 40 shots, and die, the missile launcher squad has a bit more use...

Or take an Inceptor squad, you'll get 18 heavy bolter shots at 18", not 12", and you'll deal roughly the same amount of wounds to power armored T4 targets. And you have 2 wounds...

I know it's not an apples to apples comparison, but that's part of the point with grey knights, we have a bucket full of apples, everyone else has a fruit salad.

but thats how everyone's troops are.
why take tacticals when you could take a dev squad

I didn't know there was a dev squad in the GK codex

There are no codexes and you can ally in any imperium unit for free.

The title of this thread is absurd, because they are a lot better than in 7th edition. If the OP was thinking in 5th edition that is another story...

A full GK army (what I play) will struggle against horde armies just for pure attrition, but that is expected from an elite army. Even then, the army can put a LOT of dakka in the table if you want.

Otherwise, agaisnt medium-elite armies, GK will compete well:

The "nerfed" smite is VERY good when every unit in your army can use it. Remember, you can reroll a dice if you get perils (making them a lot less frequent than the 5,55% it would be otherwise) and you can use it in combat (that's the reason purifiers cost what they cost: they are beasts in cc).

A lot of people here are underestimating the 1D3 damage that EVERY weapon in our army has in cc (at least). That is huge against vehicles, MC, Terminators, etc. It means that against multi wound units (and in 8th edition there are a lot of them) our units count as having the double number of attacks.

I dont' see whats wrong with a unit that deep-strikes, carries 2 bolters a piece, with a force weapon that is also a Psyker for only 21 points a piece... in the troops section! . Seriously, some people here seems to need to learn to play 8th edition if they think the Strike Squad is bad... If 1 attack is not enough for you, equip them with falchions for free and they will get 2 attacks each at -2 AP (more than a lot of close combat oriented units have)

The only real nerf I see is in the detachment department: you need to play 2 HQ to get +3 command points and our HQ aare very expensive (I solve this playing Coteaz or an Inquisitor for my second HQ).

 Jaxler wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
For 50 points less i could take a devastator squad with 4 missile launchers. It can hurt anything at a 48" range.

I can deploy it in cover to make it a 2+ save.
I don't have to deep strike it right into the teeth of my opponent's army
It can kill vehicles, creatures, etc, and can fire d6*4 shots at hordes.

So while yes, the strike squad can drop in, fire 40 shots, and die, the missile launcher squad has a bit more use...

Or take an Inceptor squad, you'll get 18 heavy bolter shots at 18", not 12", and you'll deal roughly the same amount of wounds to power armored T4 targets. And you have 2 wounds...

I know it's not an apples to apples comparison, but that's part of the point with grey knights, we have a bucket full of apples, everyone else has a fruit salad.

but thats how everyone's troops are.
why take tacticals when you could take a dev squad

I didn't know there was a dev squad in the GK codex

There are no codexes and you can ally in any imperium unit for free.

I know i was making a joke. The point being once you start replacing GK units with stuff that's more useful / appropriately costed you stop being GK. That said, I do like that i can be Ultramarines + Dreadknight.

zinch wrote:
The title of this thread is absurd, because they are a lot better than in 7th edition. If the OP was thinking in 5th edition that is another story...

A full GK army (what I play) will struggle against horde armies just for pure attrition, but that is expected from an elite army. Even then, the army can put a LOT of dakka in the table if you want.

Otherwise, agaisnt medium-elite armies, GK will compete well:

The "nerfed" smite is VERY good when every unit in your army can use it. Remember, you can reroll a dice if you get perils (making them a lot less frequent than the 5,55% it would be otherwise) and you can use it in combat (that's the reason purifiers cost what they cost: they are beasts in cc).

A lot of people here are underestimating the 1D3 damage that EVERY weapon in our army has in cc (at least). That is huge against vehicles, MC, Terminators, etc. It means that against multi wound units (and in 8th edition there are a lot of them) our units count as having the double number of attacks.

I dont' see whats wrong with a unit that deep-strikes, carries 2 bolters a piece, with a force weapon that is also a Psyker for only 21 points a piece... in the troops section! . Seriously, some people here seems to need to learn to play 8th edition if they think the Strike Squad is bad... If 1 attack is not enough for you, equip them with falchions for free and they will get 2 attacks each at -2 AP (more than a lot of close combat oriented units have)

The only real nerf I see is in the detachment department: you need to play 2 HQ to get +3 command points and our HQ aare very expensive (I solve this playing Coteaz or an Inquisitor for my second HQ).

"Can't handle hordes well." In the third line you explained why we suck. Also, we need to get into CC to do anything. Our whole army requires to be within a foot to do anything at all. At best the opponent will get 1-2 turns to react and we will take 3 to really dig our teeth in. Also our CC guys may hit hard but die if they're charged first by any other other CC unit if, let's say that blob you attacked walks out of combat and those bulgrins come over to scratch your back. Or another blob charged you, hell the bulgrins may be overkill.

If your in rapid fire range, why wouldn't they just charge you?

First, not enough games have been played to determine what armies are nerfed, bad, OP etc. The new rules are different and I think a lot of people's first impressions will be wrong. Second, struggling against horde armies is not a nerf. All armies that are not also horde armies will have trouble because it is going to be a lot harder to kill lots of individual models now without blasts, flame template, and destroying a fleeing unit. An most horde armies will now be getting that 5+ or 6+ save against a lot of shooting now, and most have a way to mitigate morale. So, the fact that the Grey Knights may (and at this point no one really knows) be bad against hordes is irrelevant.

Then if you really want to complain lets take a look at your main line infantry v. mine as I play Thousand Sons. So a Strike Marine is 21 points after equipment. A Rubic Marine is 20 points after equipment, and we need to pay at least 43 points for one model in our squad, the sorcerer. You get your champion for free. So 10 of yours are 210 while 10 of mine are 223. Strike squad has double the shots, but our guns are ap -2 so lets call that a wash.(although more shots are much better against horde type armies) In close combat Rubic's have one attack with no ap, while the sorcerer has 2 with a force weapon. The Strike marines have one attack (two for champ) with basically the same weapon the sorcerer has, so much much better. Also why is your force weapons 0? Really, they couldn't even bee a token 1 or 2 points? Defensively, the Rubic's do have All is dust (+1 sv if attacked with damage 1) and a 5++, while the strike squad only has the same 3+ save. So advantage Rubic. Psykic, and keep in mind our legion are suppose to be the most psy originally and worship the psy god, our sorcerer gets to cast the "baby-smite", with no protection against perils and if he does the squad is losing 2D3 models due to the way the rules work. Our sorcerer can't cast anything else. The Strike squad can cast the same "baby-smite" more or less (read the Rites of Banishment anyone who disagrees). However, the Strike squad can take a normal spell as well, including the very awesome warp gate ability. Even with the rule of one, this is leaps better that the Thousand Son's sorcerer. And the Stike squad only loses D3 models to a peril, and can still case after that, where as if the sorcerer dies the Thousand Sons can't case anymore. So that is a huge advantage for the strike squad. Then you have the inate abilities that the strike squad has like auto deep strike (which I would kill for on my Rubics), and combat squad (situational but can be useful), and all the bonuses against damons (again situational). In addition you can take a special weapon (and have more than one choice) for every 5 models, while the Rubic can only take our one and only heavy weapon at 10 models. I know we can have all warpflamers, but those are 15 points per model, a squad with that would be 347 points. So in my opinion based on the above the strike squad is much better than the rubics for lesspoints, at least cost when the sorcerer is counted.

The long and short of it is that I would count your blessings because things could be worse for your army.

Wow you compared TWO bad units. Of course one will be worse.

 Xenomancers wrote:
If you try to play GK like you did in 7th you will struggle I think. Their power actually lies in strike squad marines and paladins - which were two of the worst units in the game in 7th. Dread-knights are nothing like they were in 7th. They aren't a bad option but dreadnoughts are better.

You know that doesn\t exactly inspire faith in GW balancing...Sounds more like cash grab "previously good units into bad since their sales are done and previously bad units into good units as they haven't sold all that much"...

 Jaxler wrote:

zinch wrote:
The title of this thread is absurd, because they are a lot better than in 7th edition. If the OP was thinking in 5th edition that is another story...

A full GK army (what I play) will struggle against horde armies just for pure attrition, but that is expected from an elite army. Even then, the army can put a LOT of dakka in the table if you want.

Otherwise, agaisnt medium-elite armies, GK will compete well:

The "nerfed" smite is VERY good when every unit in your army can use it. Remember, you can reroll a dice if you get perils (making them a lot less frequent than the 5,55% it would be otherwise) and you can use it in combat (that's the reason purifiers cost what they cost: they are beasts in cc).

A lot of people here are underestimating the 1D3 damage that EVERY weapon in our army has in cc (at least). That is huge against vehicles, MC, Terminators, etc. It means that against multi wound units (and in 8th edition there are a lot of them) our units count as having the double number of attacks.

I dont' see whats wrong with a unit that deep-strikes, carries 2 bolters a piece, with a force weapon that is also a Psyker for only 21 points a piece... in the troops section! . Seriously, some people here seems to need to learn to play 8th edition if they think the Strike Squad is bad... If 1 attack is not enough for you, equip them with falchions for free and they will get 2 attacks each at -2 AP (more than a lot of close combat oriented units have)

The only real nerf I see is in the detachment department: you need to play 2 HQ to get +3 command points and our HQ aare very expensive (I solve this playing Coteaz or an Inquisitor for my second HQ).

"Can't handle hordes well." In the third line you explained why we suck. Also, we need to get into CC to do anything. Our whole army requires to be within a foot to do anything at all. At best the opponent will get 1-2 turns to react and we will take 3 to really dig our teeth in. Also our CC guys may hit hard but die if they're charged first by any other other CC unit if, let's say that blob you attacked walks out of combat and those bulgrins come over to scratch your back. Or another blob charged you, hell the bulgrins may be overkill.

If your in rapid fire range, why wouldn't they just charge you?

Thats a non-sensicle argument, might as well get rid of all rapid fire weapons in that case.

The fact is that GK actually deals with hordes better now with double the shots. Yes its bolters, but you shoot enough bolters at something it dies, thats been true ever since back in the day.

You posts lead me to believe that, since its new, you dont understand the tactics of 8th edition. Of course they die if they're charged first, thats why you dont let them get charged or you charge yourself.

Again this is not 7th edition, whatever tactics you think you know in 7th, 6th, 5th etc; throw them out the window.

20 bolter shots from a 5 man squad at 12 inches is nothing to sneeze at, 40 with a 10 man with no upgrades, our weapons are as potent as ever, incinerators are still good, psycannons are better without salvo, even psilencers arent a bad choice due to potential damage output

It seems to me you're just looking to find bad things, and you're again comparing 8th to prior editions, which you cant do anymore, its a completly different game.

Grey knights are a lot better in 8th compared to other 8th edition armies, we have a fighting chance now as a solo force

We can get into combat much easier now, rhinos are fast and tough, as are interceptors, gate is always an option and terminators can actually turn 1 charge now after deep striking (sure its a 9 inch charge but better than before)

So 10 of yours are 210 while 10 of mine are 223. Strike squad has double the shots, but our guns are ap -2 so lets call that a wash.

Let's not, though.

If you shoot at a 2+ target, with -2 you're forcing 4+ saves.

Your expected wound total is 4 times bigger than ours.

No one in their right mind is going to trade a -2AP rapid fire gun for a 0AP raid fire gun with twice the shots.

The only time those extra shots are twice as effective is when we're shooting a target with 0 armor saves and is not in cover.

Guard with a cover save have a 4+ save. Against our guns, that's 50%, against yours, that's 16% save.

20 bolter shots from a 5 man squad at 12 inches is nothing to sneeze at, 40 with a 10 man with no upgrades, our weapons are as potent as ever, incinerators are still good, psycannons are better without salvo, even psilencers arent a bad choice due to potential damage output

Not sure if serious, incinerators can't hit if you deep strike, and lost wall of death. Psycannons and Psilencers are less than mediocre. The psilencer is decent solely because horde armies are super strong right now, but again, you're paying for the D3 damage which it doesn't really get to use.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eh, i'm being too negative. It would be helpful to have a grey knights tactics thread, I think.

My personal opinion is that the best way to run GK is with small squads of Paladins. On their own, they're threatening, and by splitting them into minimal squads (~150 points) you can deep strike all over and increase your odds of locking someone in combat, requiring that 9inches.

Also, more squads = more smites, and while that sucks against hordes, it would do well against other elite armies.

Dreadknights can take Gate of Infinity. Squads of paladins with dreadknights to selectively gate them might be cool.

I dunno.

Wall of death isnt needed, it does its D6 automatic hits instead of d3 that wall of death used to do, which is twice as good

Yes flamers cant hit if deep striking now, that would make them too good in general

 Marmatag wrote:
Why would you take PAGK when you can do anything better with Death Company? At least there i'll get some nice codex benefits like black rage and a 6+ FNP, as well as the ability to put a power fist or two in the squad, and take pistols that are FAR superior to storm bolters.
...

Can someone explain to me why you'd ever take interceptors over Death Company?

 Marmatag wrote:


Death Company outclass every single PAGK unit and are cheaper. Even if you factor in the smite, giving it the mortal wounds with 100% success and never periling.

You might want to spend some time over in the Blood Angels in 8th thread where BA players have been discussing for weeks how terrible the Death Company is now. Realize that everybody got nerfed to some degree with the edition change and the loss of quite a few faction specific rules. The mix of units may shift around but I suspect Grey Knights will be just fine say, a month from now, once more people have played more games and sorted some things out.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Wall of death isnt needed, it does its D6 automatic hits instead of d3 that wall of death used to do, which is twice as good

Yes flamers cant hit if deep striking now, that would make them too good in general

lol what? Flamers are kinda trash and suck killing most things.

 Blacksteel wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Why would you take PAGK when you can do anything better with Death Company? At least there i'll get some nice codex benefits like black rage and a 6+ FNP, as well as the ability to put a power fist or two in the squad, and take pistols that are FAR superior to storm bolters.
...

Can someone explain to me why you'd ever take interceptors over Death Company?

 Marmatag wrote:


Death Company outclass every single PAGK unit and are cheaper. Even if you factor in the smite, giving it the mortal wounds with 100% success and never periling.

You might want to spend some time over in the Blood Angels in 8th thread where BA players have been discussing for weeks how terrible the Death Company is now. Realize that everybody got nerfed to some degree with the edition change and the loss of quite a few faction specific rules. The mix of units may shift around but I suspect Grey Knights will be just fine say, a month from now, once more people have played more games and sorted some things out.

Nice avatar.

I actually have played with Death Company. They are a points efficient wrecking ball, and if you pair them with an HQ like Astorath or Lemartes they're a complete juggernaut.

While they're not overall as strong as they were in 7th, they're markedly better than a lot of other marines. 30 power sword attacks with rerolls is pretty nasty..

Question about Gate:

Can the psyker select himself?
Don't see why he should not be able to

Aeri wrote:
Question about Gate:

Can the psyker select himself?
Don't see why he should not be able to

He should be able to, yes. It doesn't seem to count as moving either so great to put on GK Purgation squads. They won't get the -1.

I would think it would be covered under the Reinforcements heading in the main rulebook on the movement phase page. That is where it says deepstrike(and others) counts as moving and therefore -1 for heavy weapons.

Applies to all models 'set up on the battlefield', in whatever phase. The wording of Gate of Infinity is 'remove that unit and set it up anywhere on the battlefield'.

Spartacus wrote:
I would think it would be covered under the Reinforcements heading in the main rulebook on the movement phase page. That is where it says deepstrike(and others) counts as moving and therefore -1 for heavy weapons.

Applies to all models 'set up on the battlefield', in whatever phase. The wording of Gate of Infinity is 'remove that unit and set it up anywhere on the battlefield'.

The -1 specifically says it only applies to units that arrive as reinforcements. "Units that arrive as reinforcements..." being the key language. The "setup on the battlefield" just says you can't Move or Advance, which you won't do anyway with Gate since it's in the Psychic Phase. There's nothing that says Gate counts as "arriving as reinforcements".

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Wall of death isnt needed, it does its D6 automatic hits instead of d3 that wall of death used to do, which is twice as good

Yes flamers cant hit if deep striking now, that would make them too good in general

Flamers lost ignore cover and for the most part have trash AP. Flamers are basically worthless in this edition except for their strong overwatch.

GK are pretty great when you use proper tactics. They can concentrate on a flank way easier than more numerous foes. Also, being able to perform multiple tasks is more valuable than before. You've got decent shooting and decent mellee capabilities and you're not forced to shoot at whatever you're going to charge. Furthermore, d3 weapons are pretty good vs tougher opponents.

So, in the end you've got a squad that can shoot something squishy with a storm-bolter and charge something tough to chop it down with their force weapons. And as you can concentrate your forces more easilly, they can deal a lot of damage in a certain area of the battlefield.

But there's a weakness. They're squishy for the points. And you got to mitigate this weakness. And you actually need to set everything more or less properly for your concentrated strike to be effective. Luckilly, deepstrike and transports help tremendously.

Yeah, cant say im loving the 8th edition for GK's,
They dont seem very flexible,

They seem great at taking down low model count armies, heroes/tanks/monsters,
Especially with smite, these guys might have the highest mortal wound count imo,

But thats where it stops,
Even a basic horde army is gonna give you trouble,
if your lucky enough to get a few rounds of shooting rapid fire (which is a big IF now with all the buffs to combat/charging), you may stand a chance... maybe,

I do like the idea of taking a standard SM Librarian, its actually cheaper and more powerful than normal when you make the change from force stave to warding stave, Also you get a fresh tree to start picking spells from, "Null Zone" cought..cough....cough,
But then again thats an anti hero slot that doesnt need filling with GK's,

I am curious what others thought about the newly improved psilencer,
im liking it, but still not sure its cost effective compared with other weaps.

==Edit==
I might be a little bias, im still feeling a little but hurt after learning a normal Dreadnaught powerfist does 3dmg and a dreadknight fist is only D3, should be the other way around, one is twice as tall with an actual arm, the other has a boxy metalic flesh light thingy

Chaos player here. I'm really sad for you guys, Codex SMs get the spell for killing Daemons, you get a 'moving units' spell that's a recipe for getting the caster killed, and you just got suckered into splitting the bill with UM & Fallen collectors to get Voldus. I miss when you had rules that made you slaughter Daemons BUT Daemons got recycled. It was a brilliant idea that made every matchup feel like a climactic showdown and I can't believe they not only left it out but gave you this mess of a list. Hope you get brought back up to scratch soon

I don't think grey knights are meant to shoot much this edition. I don't think it's all doom and gloom though:

-Draigo and Voldus hit on 2's and reroll 1's and they both have 5 attacks with 3dmg for 15 points of damage. Nothing has more than T8 right now so they are wounding on 3's and 4's with respectable AP. Hammerhand can bring one of them to a 2
+ or 3+ respectively.

-Brotherhood Champion in Sword Strike Stance and casting Hammerhand wounds anything in the game on a 4+ with 4 attacks d3 dmg anywhere from 4-12 dmg.

-Dreadknights do minimum dmg of 3 and up to 6 with the greathammer.

-Dreadknights with Hvy Psycannons have the potential to be decent character assassins as they can teleport in on positioning so that the enemy character hiding behind units is the closest model.

-Apothecaries healing terminator squads or bringing one back from the dead each turn. In a vanguard detachment, you could take 3 Apothecaries and 3 Paladin squads (which have 3 wounds each) and still get +1 Command Points.

-Purifiers loaded into Storm Ravens will be a thing. SR can deliver the Purifiers to the range band they need for D6 smites and you can stuff 2 units in one SR. Storm Ravens alone can put out a ton of firepower which can all split fire to the best targets.