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Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer
Title says it all.
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Post by: Talamare
Depends on Detachment
but unlike Death Guard that lists out the exact units allowed, EMP only states every unit between pages 16-42
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Post by: yakface
As long as all units in your army share a single faction keyword and you give each cult unit its 'correct' legion keyword (e.g. Plague Marines get the Deathguard keyword), then absolutely.
You just limit ability synergies a bit doing this, that's all.
 Talamare wrote:Depends on Detachment
but unlike Death Guard that lists out the exact units allowed, EMP only states every unit between pages 16-42
Just so you know, the other army types that list specific units (like with the Deathguard) that actually only limits which units can be given the Deathguard legion keyword, not which can be included in your army.
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Post by: Captyn_Bob
Depends what you mean as an "Emperors Children Army".
If you mean an army that entirely has the EC keyword, then no.
But you can still take mostly EC units and the other cult units as Death guard , world eaters and thousand sons.
Not a problem at the moment, but there may be proper EC detachment later. Maybe. :s
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Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer
Wow thats amazing most of the people on here actually think this...
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Post by: yakface
Seriously, just clear out your preconceptions of what you think the rules are saying, and go back and re-read what they actually say.
The legion rules do not limit what units you can take in your army, just what units can get specific legion keywords, and what benefits those units do get when taking those specific legion keywords.
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Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer
 yakface wrote:Seriously, just clear out your preconceptions of what you think the rules are saying, and go back and re-read what they actually say.
The legion rules do not limit what units you can take in your army, just what units can get specific legion keywords, and what benefits those units do get when taking those specific legion keywords.
Im not saying they limit what you take.
I'm saying if you bring them you don't get to take them as Troops, there is no reason you should get a free upgrade for those units by simply adding a keyword.
The detachments all same the same thing every unit in the detachment must be from the SAME faction. That means you have to pick a faction, which means you cant benefit from both WE and Chaos at the same time. Simply having a keyword that makes the unit that is normally an elites choice a troops choice makes no sense, its not even mildly reasonable. Why would they just give you access to free CP like that? Why have any restrictions on any of the units? Since you can just add a keyword and get the upgrade with out ever suffering any kind of hindrance.
According to your logic, I can have Rubric Marines as a troops choice in a Khorne army
Its really simple the army Faction is determined by the keyword you choose for your detachment(s), the lowest common keyword. That is your army faction, if you have a WE army (i.e. every unit in the army has the WE keyword) then you have the ability to take Berserkers as troops, but I'm sorry you cannot add a keyword and just get to take Elites as Troops. Automatically Appended Next Post: Captyn_Bob wrote:Depends what you mean as an "Emperors Children Army".
If you mean an army that entirely has the EC keyword, then no.
But you can still take mostly EC units and the other cult units as Death guard , world eaters and thousand sons.
Not a problem at the moment, but there may be proper EC detachment later. Maybe. :s
No I mean can I Bring World Eater Berserkers as a Troops choice in an EC army.
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Post by: demontalons
The answer is yes, you can. There are positives and negatives to this of course.
Essentially Thousand Sons Rubrics are Troops, and Rubric Marines (Legion) are elites.
Just as (Emperors Children) Noise Marines are Troops and Noise Marines (Legion) are Elites.
So yes you can bring berserkers as troops in your EC army but they wont benefit from any synergy. Because Troop Berserkers are World Eaters.
As codexes come out we will see the downside of this more and more of course. For instance Death Guard only get to use their Psychic spells if you take a plague caster, a regular DeathGuard sorceror has to still take Heretic Astartes.
Or as in my army I have Rubric Marines (Thousand Sons) and Ahriman (Thousand Sons) But the rest of my army is my own Tzeentch chaos space marines. So my Demon Prince doesnt give them rerolls of 1 to hit but does give my noise marines rerolls of 1. (Which is fine because the Tsons have flamers anyway)
However I think youll see more and more mono builds for armies as codexes come out and you can get benefits for sticking with one key word. I fully expect DeathGuard codex to give alot of synergy to full DeathGuard Keyworded units and a little bit to Nurgle keyworded units.
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Post by: Talamare
It looks like I confused the initial question as well...
I read "Can I bring all 4 Chaos CULTIST Units as troops choices"
Just assuming you misspelled Cultist, or used Cult for short of Cultist.
When it seems to meant, KB, PM, NM, and RM. So I suppose the title did NOT say it all.
yakface wrote:
Just so you know, the other army types that list specific units (like with the Deathguard) that actually only limits which units can be given the Deathguard legion keyword, not which can be included in your army.
I mean on pg30 it states that "Additional Restriction apply to TS and DG - Not all HA Units are available to all to all CSM armies."
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Post by: mrhappyface
Ok calm down sorceror, tell us what happened i.e. why you started this thread with little to no information in order to catch people out. Is there a point to this or do you just want to argue with someone?
(Disclaimer: everyone here knows that an EC armies cannot take the other cult units as troop choices but your poorly worded question has thrown some people off)
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Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer
Talamare wrote:It looks like I confused the initial question as well...
I read "Can I bring all 4 Chaos CULTIST Units as troops choices"
Just assuming you misspelled Cultist, or used Cult for short of Cultist.
When it seems to meant, KB, PM, NM, and RM. So I suppose the title did NOT say it all.
Point taken changed the Title to be more clear. Automatically Appended Next Post:  mrhappyface wrote:Ok calm down sorceror, tell us what happened i.e. why you started this thread with little to no information in order to catch people out. Is there a point to this or do you just want to argue with someone?
(Disclaimer: everyone here knows that an EC armies cannot take the other cult units as troop choices but your poorly worded question has thrown some people off)
People saying by adding the WE keyword to Berserkers you get them as troops.
I'm bringing them here.
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Post by: Captyn_Bob
By adding the WE keyword to bezerkers, you get them as troops.
Said it.
Army has to have same faction. That faction can be CHAOS.
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Post by: lessthanjeff
Yeah, this started in the Thousand Sons Tactics Thread because of me apparently. I've been trying to explain that the Thousand Sons army rules do not have a restriction on which units you can take in the detachment. The only restriction is on which units can get the actual "Thousand Sons" keyword.
There are literally dataslates that have Rubric Marines as troops (page 54) so they can be taken in any detachment that only has "Chaos" as a keyword even if other units in the detachment don't have "Thousand Sons". The downside being that a character's aura would not affect all units if they don't all have the same Legion keyword.
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Post by: Talamare
 lessthanjeff wrote:Yeah, this started in the Thousand Sons Tactics Thread because of me apparently. I've been trying to explain that the Thousand Sons army rules do not have a restriction on which units you can take in the detachment. The only restriction is on which units can get the actual "Thousand Sons" keyword.
There are literally dataslates that have Rubric Marines as troops (page 54) so they can be taken in any detachment that only has "Chaos" as a keyword even if other units in the detachment don't have "Thousand Sons". The downside being that a character's aura would not affect all units if they don't all have the same Legion keyword.
Except pg30 states that those are restrictions on which units a DG/ TS army can take.
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Post by: Captyn_Bob
Nope, it's a list of units that can have the THOUSAND SONS, legion keyword.
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Post by: lessthanjeff
Talamare wrote: lessthanjeff wrote:Yeah, this started in the Thousand Sons Tactics Thread because of me apparently. I've been trying to explain that the Thousand Sons army rules do not have a restriction on which units you can take in the detachment. The only restriction is on which units can get the actual "Thousand Sons" keyword.
There are literally dataslates that have Rubric Marines as troops (page 54) so they can be taken in any detachment that only has "Chaos" as a keyword even if other units in the detachment don't have "Thousand Sons". The downside being that a character's aura would not affect all units if they don't all have the same Legion keyword.
Except pg30 states that those are restrictions on which units a DG/ TS army can take.
You must have a different book than me. My page 30 from the chaos index doesn't have any rules for the thousand sons or death guard armies. Where I do have the rules for the armies, the only restriction given is that the listed units get to have the legion "Death Guard" or "Thousand Sons" keywords instead. I originally assume it would say something like only units with those keywords could be included in the army but it doesn't.
It seems to be the same situation that allows an Imperial Army to have a troop choice Blood Claw right next to a troop choice Skitarii Ranger. Otherwise, they couldn't mix their units either because the Space Wolves army has the rules worded the same way as the Thousand Sons one and that would mean you can't have non Space Wolves units in the detachment.
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Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer
lessthanjeff wrote:It seems to be the same situation that allows an Imperial Army to have a troop choice Blood Claw right next to a troop choice Skitarii Ranger. Otherwise, they couldn't mix their units either because the Space Wolves army has the rules worded the same way as the Thousand Sons one and that would mean you can't have non Space Wolves units in the detachment.
You can't that's why you have to use Imperium as the keyword, rather then Space Wolves. The thing that lets you take Blood Claws as a troops choice is the fact that Blood Claws are a troops choice all the time, Khorne Berserkers are not a Troops Choice normally.
This is real simple your Army has a faction, you don't choose that faction, its determined by Keywords. DG have special rules for their army PM are Troops choices if you want PM as troops choices then every unit in your army must have the DG keyword.
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Post by: lessthanjeff
You keep saying every unit in your army has to have the DG keyword, but I've yet to see you provide the reference for that rule. The detachment rules only say each unit must have "at least one faction keyword in common". The data stale on page 60 shows Plague Marines (for example) as troops with no special requirement on how or when you can use it. The Death Guard Army rules only state "The Heretic Astartes datasheets listed to the right can be from the Death Guard Legion" instead of having the very different line you keep getting out of it "The Heretic Astartes datasheets listed to the right are the only ones that can be included in the detachment."
Maybe it would help you to stop trying to name all the units in the detachment under one umbrella? Think of it like the wars fought on Cadia and Fenris. There are forces from several different armies fighting together on one battlefield and that's what GW has tried to permit more of in this edition. You're fielding some World Eater's forces alongside some Thousand Sons forces as they fight together.
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Post by: yakface
 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:This is real simple your Army has a faction, you don't choose that faction, its determined by Keywords. DG have special rules for their army PM are Troops choices if you want PM as troops choices then every unit in your army must have the DG keyword.
You keep saying that, but you don't have any actual rules to back up your stance. So you might *want* the rules to work they way you're saying that they do, but they do not.
Let me show you:
I build an army using 'Chaos' as my keyword. In that army I take Plague Marines and give them the DEATH GUARD legion keyword. I take Rubric Marines and give them the THOUSAND SONS legion keyword. I take Khorne Bezerkers and give them the WORLD EATERS legion keyword, and I take Noise Marines and give them the EMPEROR'S CHILDREN legion keyword.
Can I give every unit a different legion faction keyword? Pg 10 of the Chaos Index:
If a Heretic Astartes datasheet does not specify which Legion it is drawn from, it will have the <Legion> keyword. When you include such a unit in your army, you must nominate which Legion that unit is from.
So yes, I can give every unit a different legion keyword.
Now, what do I get for giving each of these cult unit types its 'native' legion? Again, the rules tell us (these are all quotes):
The Battlefield Role of WORLD EATERS Khorne Bezerkers is Troops instead of Elites.
The Battlefield Role of DEATH GUARD Plague Marines s is Troops instead of Elites.
The Battlefield Role of THOUSAND SONS Rubric Marines is Troops instead of Elites.
The Battlefield Role of EMPEROR'S CHILDREN Noise Marines is Troops instead of Elites.
And there it is. NOTHING in the rules states that you have to choose a specific legion keyword to build your army around to get these benefits at all. Because there is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Yes, you get to take all different cult units as a troops choice, but you've now lost the ability to give those units benefits from your characters that give specific legions benefits.
If you want a mainly Emperor's Children force, then you're going to build your army around units mostly with the EC keyword, because that's going to allow your auras to be used by any of your units. You could decide to put, say, a unit of Khorne Bezerkers in the force and also give them the EC keyword (allowing them to use your auras), but they'll be an Elites choice. Or you can make them World Eaters Bezerkers, in which case they'll be a troops choice, but now you likely won't have any auras in your army that will benefit them.
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Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer
yakface wrote: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:This is real simple your Army has a faction, you don't choose that faction, its determined by Keywords. DG have special rules for their army PM are Troops choices if you want PM as troops choices then every unit in your army must have the DG keyword.
You keep saying that, but you don't have any actual rules to back up your stance. So you might *want* the rules to work they way you're saying that they do, but they do not.
Let me show you:
I build an army using 'Chaos' as my keyword. In that army I take Plague Marines and give them the DEATH GUARD legion keyword. I take Rubric Marines and give them the THOUSAND SONS legion keyword. I take Khorne Bezerkers and give them the WORLD EATERS legion keyword, and I take Noise Marines and give them the EMPEROR'S CHILDREN legion keyword.
Can I give every unit a different legion faction keyword? Pg 10 of the Chaos Index:
If a Heretic Astartes datasheet does not specify which Legion it is drawn from, it will have the <Legion> keyword. When you include such a unit in your army, you must nominate which Legion that unit is from.
So yes, I can give every unit a different legion keyword.
Now, what do I get for giving each of these cult unit types its 'native' legion? Again, the rules tell us (these are all quotes):
The Battlefield Role of WORLD EATERS Khorne Bezerkers is Troops instead of Elites.
The Battlefield Role of DEATH GUARD Plague Marines s is Troops instead of Elites.
The Battlefield Role of THOUSAND SONS Rubric Marines is Troops instead of Elites.
The Battlefield Role of EMPEROR'S CHILDREN Noise Marines is Troops instead of Elites.
And there it is. NOTHING in the rules states that you have to choose a specific legion keyword to build your army around to get these benefits at all. Because there is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Yes, you get to take all different cult units as a troops choice, but you've now lost the ability to give those units benefits from your characters that give specific legions benefits.
If you want a mainly Emperor's Children force, then you're going to build your army around units mostly with the EC keyword, because that's going to allow your auras to be used by any of your units. You could decide to put, say, a unit of Khorne Bezerkers in the force and also give them the EC keyword (allowing them to use your auras), but they'll be an Elites choice. Or you can make them World Eaters Bezerkers, in which case they'll be a troops choice, but now you likely won't have any auras in your army that will benefit them.
None of those units are Troops because your army is Chaos not DG, not WE, not TS, not EC. Those Changes are all under sections, titled "<Legion> Army Rules". You do not PICK your army faction you determine it from the units you have in your army.
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Post by: yakface
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:None of those units are Troops because your army is Chaos not DG, not WE, not TS, not EC. Those Changes are all under sections, titled "<Legion> Army Rules". You do not PICK your army faction you determine it from the units you have in your army.
As soon as you can find something in the rules backing up what you're saying, then you'd have a point. However, there aren't any rules saying you have to stick to a single legion keyword on all your units in order to get those benefits.
It would have been really, really easy for GW to write the rules to say what you're saying, but they didn't because you're specifically supposed to be able to include allied elements within your forces if you want.
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Post by: demontalons
pg 57 of the Chaos Index
Forces of the Death Guard
The Heretic Astartes datasheets listed to the right can be from the DeathGuard Legion. Those that have the (Legion) keyword on their datasheet can replace it in all instances with DeathGuard. If a heretic Astartes unit does not appear in the list to the right it cannot have the Death Guard Faction Keyword.
Servants of Nurgle
If a DeathGuard unit has the (Mark of Chaos) keyword it must be Nurgle. Similiarly Death Guard DP's must owe their allegiance to Nurgle.
Lord of the Plague Host
The battlefield role of (Death Guard) Plague Marines is Troops instead of Elites.
Thats all the Deathguard relevant rules.
So it says that DeathGuard Plague Marines are Troops. It doesnt say If all units in this BattleForged army have the DeathGUard faction then their battle field role is changed to Troops. Which is what you're trying to argue it is saying. Each Datasheet has the appropriate Keywords, so Death Guard Plague Marines are troops but The Righteous Plague Marines are elites because only DeathGuard Plague Marines can be troops.
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Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer
demontalons wrote:pg 57 of the Chaos Index
Death Guard Army Rules
Forces of the Death Guard
The Heretic Astartes datasheets listed to the right can be from the DeathGuard Legion. Those that have the (Legion) keyword on their datasheet can replace it in all instances with DeathGuard. If a heretic Astartes unit does not appear in the list to the right it cannot have the Death Guard Faction Keyword.
Servants of Nurgle
If a DeathGuard unit has the (Mark of Chaos) keyword it must be Nurgle. Similiarly Death Guard DP's must owe their allegiance to Nurgle.
Lord of the Plague Host
The battlefield role of (Death Guard) Plague Marines is Troops instead of Elites.
Thats all the Deathguard relevant rules.
So it says that DeathGuard Plague Marines are Troops. It doesnt say If all units in this BattleForged army have the DeathGUard faction then their battle field role is changed to Troops. Which is what you're trying to argue it is saying. Each Datasheet has the appropriate Keywords, so Death Guard Plague Marines are troops but The Righteous Plague Marines are elites because only DeathGuard Plague Marines can be troops.
Added a thing you forgot.
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Post by: Gordon Shumway
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:demontalons wrote:pg 57 of the Chaos Index
Death Guard Army Rules
Forces of the Death Guard
The Heretic Astartes datasheets listed to the right can be from the DeathGuard Legion. Those that have the (Legion) keyword on their datasheet can replace it in all instances with DeathGuard. If a heretic Astartes unit does not appear in the list to the right it cannot have the Death Guard Faction Keyword.
Servants of Nurgle
If a DeathGuard unit has the (Mark of Chaos) keyword it must be Nurgle. Similiarly Death Guard DP's must owe their allegiance to Nurgle.
Lord of the Plague Host
The battlefield role of (Death Guard) Plague Marines is Troops instead of Elites.
Thats all the Deathguard relevant rules.
So it says that DeathGuard Plague Marines are Troops. It doesnt say If all units in this BattleForged army have the DeathGUard faction then their battle field role is changed to Troops. Which is what you're trying to argue it is saying. Each Datasheet has the appropriate Keywords, so Death Guard Plague Marines are troops but The Righteous Plague Marines are elites because only DeathGuard Plague Marines can be troops.
Added a thing you forgot.
And still nowhere does it mention that a Death Guard detachment/army must be made up entirely of <Death Guard> units.
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Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer
yakface wrote: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:None of those units are Troops because your army is Chaos not DG, not WE, not TS, not EC. Those Changes are all under sections, titled "<Legion> Army Rules". You do not PICK your army faction you determine it from the units you have in your army.
As soon as you can find something in the rules backing up what you're saying, then you'd have a point. However, there aren't any rules saying you have to stick to a single legion keyword on all your units in order to get those benefits.
It would have been really, really easy for GW to write the rules to say what you're saying, but they didn't because you're specifically supposed to be able to include allied elements within your forces if you want.
You know what fine. Ill just wait for the FAQ.
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Post by: Gordon Shumway
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: yakface wrote: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:None of those units are Troops because your army is Chaos not DG, not WE, not TS, not EC. Those Changes are all under sections, titled "<Legion> Army Rules". You do not PICK your army faction you determine it from the units you have in your army.
As soon as you can find something in the rules backing up what you're saying, then you'd have a point. However, there aren't any rules saying you have to stick to a single legion keyword on all your units in order to get those benefits.
It would have been really, really easy for GW to write the rules to say what you're saying, but they didn't because you're specifically supposed to be able to include allied elements within your forces if you want.
You know what fine. Ill just wait for the FAQ.
You could, but why bother restricting yourself to rules that only exist in your head in the meantime? Really, they are clearly written as is.
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Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer
 Gordon Shumway wrote: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:demontalons wrote:pg 57 of the Chaos Index
Death Guard Army Rules
Forces of the Death Guard
The Heretic Astartes datasheets listed to the right can be from the DeathGuard Legion. Those that have the (Legion) keyword on their datasheet can replace it in all instances with DeathGuard. If a heretic Astartes unit does not appear in the list to the right it cannot have the Death Guard Faction Keyword.
Servants of Nurgle
If a DeathGuard unit has the (Mark of Chaos) keyword it must be Nurgle. Similiarly Death Guard DP's must owe their allegiance to Nurgle.
Lord of the Plague Host
The battlefield role of (Death Guard) Plague Marines is Troops instead of Elites.
Thats all the Deathguard relevant rules.
So it says that DeathGuard Plague Marines are Troops. It doesnt say If all units in this BattleForged army have the DeathGUard faction then their battle field role is changed to Troops. Which is what you're trying to argue it is saying. Each Datasheet has the appropriate Keywords, so Death Guard Plague Marines are troops but The Righteous Plague Marines are elites because only DeathGuard Plague Marines can be troops.
Added a thing you forgot.
And still nowhere does it mention that a Death Guard detachment/army must be made up entirely of <Death Guard> units.
What are the requirements for Detachments? Oh yeah every model must have the same faction. but that doesn't count because reasons.
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Post by: Gordon Shumway
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Gordon Shumway wrote: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:demontalons wrote:pg 57 of the Chaos Index
Death Guard Army Rules
Forces of the Death Guard
The Heretic Astartes datasheets listed to the right can be from the DeathGuard Legion. Those that have the (Legion) keyword on their datasheet can replace it in all instances with DeathGuard. If a heretic Astartes unit does not appear in the list to the right it cannot have the Death Guard Faction Keyword.
Servants of Nurgle
If a DeathGuard unit has the (Mark of Chaos) keyword it must be Nurgle. Similiarly Death Guard DP's must owe their allegiance to Nurgle.
Lord of the Plague Host
The battlefield role of (Death Guard) Plague Marines is Troops instead of Elites.
Thats all the Deathguard relevant rules.
So it says that DeathGuard Plague Marines are Troops. It doesnt say If all units in this BattleForged army have the DeathGUard faction then their battle field role is changed to Troops. Which is what you're trying to argue it is saying. Each Datasheet has the appropriate Keywords, so Death Guard Plague Marines are troops but The Righteous Plague Marines are elites because only DeathGuard Plague Marines can be troops.
Added a thing you forgot.
And still nowhere does it mention that a Death Guard detachment/army must be made up entirely of <Death Guard> units.
What are the requirements for Detachments? Oh yeah every model must have the same faction. but that doesn't count because reasons.
Good thing that all Death Guard units have the chaos faction keyword then. Looks like you're covered!
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Post by: TheWaspinator
I'm not seeing anything in the index that says your entire army or detachment has to be Death Guard for a specific unit to count as Death Guard for the purpose of those role-changing rules.
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Post by: lessthanjeff
Yeah, I haven't understood this argument either. Literally every other post in YMDC where people ask this same question has it quickly answered and everyone agrees and moves on with their lives. I'm honestly kind of impressed.
Can you explain to me the rules justification for saying an Imperial Army can take Blood Claws even though that is a dataslate reserved for Space Wolves armies only while simultaneously saying a Chaos army cannot take Plague Marines as troops?
In past editions, I completely agree that everything within a detachment had to have the exact same faction. Hell, I even thought that was the case the first time you said my World Eater's list with bloodletters in it was illegal, but the more evidence you tried to provide the more I saw the rules and the designers had said the opposite. They want detachments to include units from multiple armies within certain bounds (like not allying Druhkari and Slaanesh) but to say separate chaos force cannot fight together is inconsistent with that goal.
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Post by: Ghaz
Here's what I feel GW was aiming for with their Faction keywords. Whether they hit the mark or not is a different matter. From page 156 of the Warhammer Age of Sigmar - General's Handbook:
ALLEGIANCE
Every unit and warscroll battalion in Warhammer Age of Sigmar is part of one of the Grand Alliances – either ORDER, CHAOS, DEATH or DESTRUCTION. Many units and warscroll battalions also have more specific allegiances, for example, STORMCAST ETERNALS or SYLVANETH. If all the units and warscroll battalions in your army are ORDER, for example, then it has the ORDER allegiance. An army with the ORDER allegiance – sometimes known as an ORDER army – can use the potent allegiance abilities rules found on the following pages.
When your army qualifies for more than one allegiance – e.g. all of the units are ORDER and STORMCAST ETERNAL – you must choose which allegiance your army will use before each game. These restrictions aside, you can use allegiance abilities whenever and wherever you play your games of Warhammer Age of Sigmar.
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Post by: ClassicCarraway
 Ghaz wrote:Here's what I feel GW was aiming for with their Faction keywords. Whether they hit the mark or not is a different matter. From page 156 of the Warhammer Age of Sigmar - General's Handbook:
ALLEGIANCE
Every unit and warscroll battalion in Warhammer Age of Sigmar is part of one of the Grand Alliances – either ORDER, CHAOS, DEATH or DESTRUCTION. Many units and warscroll battalions also have more specific allegiances, for example, STORMCAST ETERNALS or SYLVANETH. If all the units and warscroll battalions in your army are ORDER, for example, then it has the ORDER allegiance. An army with the ORDER allegiance – sometimes known as an ORDER army – can use the potent allegiance abilities rules found on the following pages.
When your army qualifies for more than one allegiance – e.g. all of the units are ORDER and STORMCAST ETERNAL – you must choose which allegiance your army will use before each game. These restrictions aside, you can use allegiance abilities whenever and wherever you play your games of Warhammer Age of Sigmar.
While we will eventually get to that point where having matching legions give a benefit, it still does not prevent using the overarching keyword as your army keyword.
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Post by: Ghaz
No, but using the first prevents you from using the second and thus no Noise Marines as Troops as you wouldn't be an Emperor's Children army.
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Post by: Gordon Shumway
That's all well and good, and 40k might get there eventually. But as it is right now, that isn't how it works based on the way they wrote the rules.
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Post by: Ghaz
Gordon Shumway wrote:That's all well and good, and 40k might get there eventually. But as it is right now, that isn't how it works based on the way they wrote the rules.
Yes, I noted as such. I also noted that I feel that was their intention, both with what 40K has taken from AoS and what GW themselves have said in one of the live FAQs.
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Post by: TheWaspinator
The AOS equivalent specifically says that you need your entire army to have say, the Ironjawz keyword, to have certain Ironjawz units become battleline. I'm not seeing that here.
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Post by: GodDamUser
So..
If you take a Detachment of 'Deathguard' Plague bearers within this detachment can be taken as troops
The intention is that you cannot take Plague bearers as troops if the detachment isn't 'Deathguard'
But how the rules are written there is nothing stopping you taking Plaguebearers, WE Khorne Beserkers, Noise Marines and Rubics as Troops.. as long as each unit has their own legion key word.
But for the purposes of this question.. The army itself wouldn't be a 'Emperor's Children Army' as not everything listed above is <legion Emperors Children>
Also doing such a thing wouldn't be optimal as the majority of Character buffs are <legion> based so only certain units would be buffed by certain Characters
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Post by: Thommy H
It's possibly worth pointing out that with the new detachments, an Elites choice changing to Troops isn't actually a very big deal. Even without this rule, you could take different cult units as compulsory choices in a Vanguard Detachment anyway.
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Post by: jhe90
Far as I believe you can..
However the plague marine, beserkers or others who do not say share. Emperors children key word cannot pass its buffs onto the others.
Ie ...
The old using dark angel to invul a conscript blob as super friends.
Not work.
Because they are buff guard key word . Not dark angel.
The difference is they can share a army as impirium but not buff as not matching key words.
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Post by: Drager
This seems similar to the Ynarri mixed with Covens question, but people seem comfortable that you can only give the Ynarri keyword if the whole army has it. I think the legions and Ynarri are meant to work the same way, I don't know which way that is though.
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Post by: Solosam47
This isn't 7th ed, this is a new edition. You can do these things now, I have a hunch that now due to wording or should I say lack there of, that I can now take cypher and the fallen in the same army as dark angels. Bonkers right?
But honestly if you give a cult marine a keyword to make it a troop then it's a troop, it just doesn't benefit from synergy of your main army faction.
Honestly you have lost this argument and at this point just running against a wall. GW won't FAQ it cause it is probably intentional. It has its pros and cons and in no way broken.
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Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer
Thommy H wrote:It's possibly worth pointing out that with the new detachments, an Elites choice changing to Troops isn't actually a very big deal. Even without this rule, you could take different cult units as compulsory choices in a Vanguard Detachment anyway.
The difference is 4 CP at least probably more. Espically when you consider each one of the cult units can basically replace either a HS, FA, or Elite Choices. So a 12 unit army with 6 HQ choices has 12 CP while Vanguard detachments would only get you 6 CP. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Solosam47 wrote:This isn't 7th ed, this is a new edition. You can do these things now, I have a hunch that now due to wording or should I say lack there of, that I can now take cypher and the fallen in the same army as dark angels. Bonkers right?
But honestly if you give a cult marine a keyword to make it a troop then it's a troop, it just doesn't benefit from synergy of your main army faction.
Honestly you have lost this argument and at this point just running against a wall. GW won't FAQ it cause it is probably intentional. It has its pros and cons and in no way broken.
Yes it can all you have to do is bring 1 HQ choice that shares thier legion, and bam 3 elite units that would have gotten me 1 CP now get me 3 CP.
Not to mention if you read the rule the way I do having every unit in an Army having the WE key word would get you more CP.
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Post by: yakface
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:The difference is 4 CP at least probably more. Espically when you consider each one of the cult units can basically replace either a HS, FA, or Elite Choices. So a 12 unit army with 6 HQ choices has 12 CP while Vanguard detachments would only get you 6 CP.
Yes, and if you're doing that with cult units as the troops choices, you're sacrificing the ease to have auras that can affect them all. Also, if you're running cult units as your troops choices, you're already invested in some of the more expensive 'troops' in the game, which means you're going to start running out of points trying to fill all those other slots.
I honestly don't see the issue at all.
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Post by: ClassicCarraway
Remember, in order to field a Khorne Daemonkin army, the ONLY way to do that in 8th is to use the world eaters keyword on Berserkers. Same goes for the 1000 Sons Daemonkin-style build from the campaign books. I dare say it is completely intentional to be allowed to just use the keyword for the cult legions in order to unlock them as troops.
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Post by: yakface
 ClassicCarraway wrote:Remember, in order to field a Khorne Daemonkin army, the ONLY way to do that in 8th is to use the world eaters keyword on Berserkers. Same goes for the 1000 Sons Daemonkin-style build from the campaign books. I dare say it is completely intentional to be allowed to just use the keyword for the cult legions in order to unlock them as troops.
What? There is no Khorne Daemonkin in 8th, nor are there any campaign books.
In 8th edition the actual rules allow you pick any keyword to build your army around (such as 'CHAOS') and then you're free to pick any legion keyword for any of your Heretic Astartes units that you want. If you take the 'real' legions for each of the cult units, then they count as troops units.
Its in the rules. There is nothing saying you have to take ONLY World Eaters legion units in your army in order to get Bezerkers that are troops. The rules just do not say that.
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Post by: GodDamUser
yakface wrote:
Its in the rules. There is nothing saying you have to take ONLY World Eaters legion units in your army in order to get Bezerkers that are troops. The rules just do not say that.
well if you want to use Kharn to his full effect.. you better off as World Eater
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Post by: blaktoof
I think the issue is the forces listed as being able to be in the deathguard legion, the name of the table is "DEATH GUARD ARMY LIST". At the top.
Generally an army is made up of detachments.
Generally a detachment can have units in it that share the same keywords.
Specifically in RAW a deathguard army list is made up of the units in that table due to the words quoted above.
Unless someone knows some other meaning to "Death Guard Army List"
Not death guard legion units, it actually says army list.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also to note, generally an army is made up of detachments.
Generally units must share the same keyword to be in a detachment.
Specifically an Ynnari army cannot include coven units, and some others even if they share keyword s.
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Post by: GodDamUser
If you read the Death Guard section,
That list is just the restriction on who can use 'Death Guard Legion' as their key word
while building a detachment they as long as the detachment shares a key word it is legit.. in the case of CSM and Daemons you can just use Chaos
The only list to have an actual restriction on mixing within a Detachment is GSC and Guard
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Post by: yakface
blaktoof wrote:I think the issue is the forces listed as being able to be in the deathguard legion, the name of the table is "DEATH GUARD ARMY LIST". At the top.
Generally an army is made up of detachments.
Generally a detachment can have units in it that share the same keywords.
Specifically in RAW a deathguard army list is made up of the units in that table due to the words quoted above.
Unless someone knows some other meaning to "Death Guard Army List"
Not death guard legion units, it actually says army list.
Also to note, generally an army is made up of detachments.
Generally units must share the same keyword to be in a detachment.
Specifically an Ynnari army cannot include coven units, and some others even if they share keyword s.
And what's the point? You still haven't quoted any rules.
Every single army list is called an army list. I have an Astra Militarum Army list. great. I can take an army with Astra Militarum and I can take Space Marines, Inquisition, etc, in it as well. There is nothing saying I have to build my army using the 'Astra Militarum' keyword if I don't want to.
There is NOTHING saying you have to build your army around a legion keyword to get any such benefits. Just that only certain units can be given certain legion keywords, and certain benefits some units get when having a specific legion keyword.
The Ynnari is a whole other issue, that definitely needs to be FAQ'd, but again, nothing you're implying is actually backed up by the rules, when it really easily could have been if GW wanted it that way. This entire edition is all about giving players the flexibility to take the armies they way they want. If you want to mix Crimson Fists, with Imperial Fists, with White Scars, with Blood Angels in the same army you can.
Similarly, if you want to mix Emperor's Children with Death Guard, with World Eaters, with Thousand Sons, you can.
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Post by: blaktoof
yakface wrote:blaktoof wrote:I think the issue is the forces listed as being able to be in the deathguard legion, the name of the table is "DEATH GUARD ARMY LIST". At the top.
Generally an army is made up of detachments.
Generally a detachment can have units in it that share the same keywords.
Specifically in RAW a deathguard army list is made up of the units in that table due to the words quoted above.
Unless someone knows some other meaning to "Death Guard Army List"
Not death guard legion units, it actually says army list.
Also to note, generally an army is made up of detachments.
Generally units must share the same keyword to be in a detachment.
Specifically an Ynnari army cannot include coven units, and some others even if they share keyword s.
And what's the point? You still haven't quoted any rules.
Every single army list is called an army list. I have an Astra Militarum Army list. great. I can take an army with Astra Militarum and I can take Space Marines, Inquisition, etc, in it as well. There is nothing saying I have to build my army using the 'Astra Militarum' keyword if I don't want to.
There is NOTHING saying you have to build your army around a legion keyword to get any such benefits. Just that only certain units can be given certain legion keywords, and certain benefits some units get when having a specific legion keyword.
The Ynnari is a whole other issue, that definitely needs to be FAQ'd, but again, nothing you're implying is actually backed up by the rules, when it really easily could have been if GW wanted it that way. This entire edition is all about giving players the flexibility to take the armies they way they want. If you want to mix Crimson Fists, with Imperial Fists, with White Scars, with Blood Angels in the same army you can.
Similarly, if you want to mix Emperor's Children with Death Guard, with World Eaters, with Thousand Sons, you can.
I am going to assume your being polite.
Firstly- The words "DEATH GUARD ARMY LIST" are written at the top of page 58 in the chart that shows all the units that can be included in a death guard army. The words "DEATH GUARD ARMY LIST" seems to be rules as written, as in specific permission as to what can be taken over the general of what can be taken.
That's obviously RAW the "DEATH GUARD ARMY LIST" if something is not on that list, its not part of a death guard army.
Secondly, on page 10 of the chaos book, and I will quote:
"Note that there are some additional restrictions that apply to the THOUSAND SONDS and DEATH GUARD legions- not all Heretic Astartes units are available to all chaos armies."
Seems to be rules as written, stating, that not all heretic astartes units are available to ALL CHAOS ARMIES, it then even lists thousands sons and death guard as examples.
In plain RAW in the chaos book, Chaos armies from the Thousand Sons, and Death Guard- specifically called out do not have access to all units in the heretic astartes list. It then goes on to tell you to see their sections. If you look at there sections there is a big table that at the top says "DEATH GUARD ARMY LIST" or "THOUSANDS SONS ARMY LISTS" because as referred to on p.10- those are the only units you can take in those armies.
.
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Post by: Gordon Shumway
I think you are missing Yakface's point, blaktoof. If you want to build an army with nothing but units that have the keyword <Death Guard> maybe for fluff purposes , then you are correct. You couldn't take many other units in your army (like any units that require other gods than Nurgle as keywords, for instance or any unit not in that dumb box). But the point is, you are the one doing the limiting here, not the rules because you are the one making the decisions you don't want any units not labeled <Death Guard > for whatever reason. There really is no gaming benefit (other than army wide synergy) for doing so at this time. And there certainly is no requirement that you have to.
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Post by: blaktoof
What I am referencing are not fluff points, they are actually RAW restrictions as quoted from the rulebook.
You are applying the general keyword system, and ignoring the specific restrictions called out in the chaos book.
You CAN take a death guard legion unit in a normal heretic astartes army.
However if you are taking a DEATH GUARD ARMY- you have to follow those restrictions.
So you cannot take death guard as troops for example outside of a death guard army- as that is a rule of "DEATH GUARD ARMY RULES" Is the army a death guard army or a heretic astartes army? If it is a deathguard army it is adhereing to those rules, one of those rules is a benefit- death guard plague marines are troops.
Claiming that you can take a death guard army, and take units outside of the list on p.57 is directly going against the rules on that page, as well as page 10 which tells you "Not all Heretic Astartes units are available to all chaos armies" It doesn't reference legions, it references Armies, as in all the units in all the detachments in your army. If you are taking units not on that list you are not a death guard army, and do not have the death guard army rules.
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Post by: GodDamUser
blaktoof wrote:What I am referencing are not fluff points, they are actually RAW restrictions as quoted from the rulebook. You are applying the general keyword system, and ignoring the specific restrictions called out in the chaos book. You CAN take a death guard legion unit in a normal heretic astartes army. However if you are taking a DEATH GUARD ARMY- you have to follow those restrictions. So you cannot take death guard as troops for example outside of a death guard army.
You seem to not be understanding how army building works in 8th edition and are still stuck in the 3rd-7th mindset.. Forget everything you know and reread the rulebook. What you are referring to.. restricts what units can use "Death Guard legion" and therefore be able to receive buffs that are for "Death Guard"
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Post by: blaktoof
GodDamUser wrote:blaktoof wrote:What I am referencing are not fluff points, they are actually RAW restrictions as quoted from the rulebook.
You are applying the general keyword system, and ignoring the specific restrictions called out in the chaos book.
You CAN take a death guard legion unit in a normal heretic astartes army.
However if you are taking a DEATH GUARD ARMY- you have to follow those restrictions.
So you cannot take death guard as troops for example outside of a death guard army.
You seem to not be understanding how army building works in 8th edition and are still stuck in the 3rd-7th mindset..
Forget everything you know and reread the rulebook.
What you are referring to.. restricts what units can use "Death Guard legion" and therefore be able to receive buffs that are for "Death Guard"
you seem to be ignoring the RAW in the chaos army book, as that is all I am referencing. Do you have a chaos army? Is it a death guard army? Then you cannot take all the units in the heretic astartes list- the book even says so on p.10.
yes I know the rulebook gives general guidelines to building an army, then in the case of the chaos book there are specific limitations. Same with Ynnari. Do you ignore the specific in favor of the general rule?
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Post by: yakface
blaktoof wrote:you seem to be ignoring the RAW in the chaos army book, as that is all I am referencing. Do you have a chaos army? Is it a death guard army? Then you cannot take all the units in the heretic astartes list- the book even says so on p.10. yes I know the rulebook gives general guidelines to building an army, then in the case of the chaos book there are specific limitations. Same with Ynnari. Do you ignore the specific in favor of the general rule?
The RAW you are quoting doesn't support your argument. Again, all it says is: "Note that there are some additional restrictions that apply to the THOUSAND SONS and DEATH GUARD Legions - not all Heretic Astartes units are available to all Chaos Space Marine armies. Both of these Legions are described later in this book, with each description covering which units can be part of the Legions. If you wish to see which units each Legion can include, we recommend reading the relevant section first." So the only thing in there that comes close to saying what you're contending is 'not all Heretic Astartes units are available to all Chaos Space Marine armies.' And that is correct. If I choose to make an army around the DEATH GUARD or THOUSAND SONS keyword, then rules in the index absolutely prohibit me from including some Heretic Astartes in my force. However, what you cannot do is find any rules that refutes the following: I build an army using 'CHAOS' as my keyword. In that army I take Plague Marines and give them the DEATH GUARD legion keyword. I take Rubric Marines and give them the THOUSAND SONS legion keyword. I take Khorne Bezerkers and give them the WORLD EATERS legion keyword, and I take Noise Marines and give them the EMPEROR'S CHILDREN legion keyword. Can I give every unit a different legion faction keyword? Pg 10 of the Chaos Index: If a Heretic Astartes datasheet does not specify which Legion it is drawn from, it will have the <Legion> keyword. When you include such a unit in your army, you must nominate which Legion that unit is from. So yes, I can give every unit a different legion keyword. Now, what do I get for giving each of these cult unit types its 'native' legion? Again, the rules tell us (these are all quotes): The Battlefield Role of WORLD EATERS Khorne Bezerkers is Troops instead of Elites. The Battlefield Role of DEATH GUARD Plague Marines is Troops instead of Elites. The Battlefield Role of THOUSAND SONS Rubric Marines is Troops instead of Elites. The Battlefield Role of EMPEROR'S CHILDREN Noise Marines is Troops instead of Elites. Please show me where this has broken any rules at all.
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Post by: GodDamUser
does head cannon count as a rule?
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Post by: Gordon Shumway
blaktoof wrote:What I am referencing are not fluff points, they are actually RAW restrictions as quoted from the rulebook.
You are applying the general keyword system, and ignoring the specific restrictions called out in the chaos book.
You CAN take a death guard legion unit in a normal heretic astartes army.
However if you are taking a DEATH GUARD ARMY- you have to follow those restrictions.
So you cannot take death guard as troops for example outside of a death guard army- as that is a rule of "DEATH GUARD ARMY RULES" Is the army a death guard army or a heretic astartes army? If it is a deathguard army it is adhereing to those rules, one of those rules is a benefit- death guard plague marines are troops.
Claiming that you can take a death guard army, and take units outside of the list on p.57 is directly going against the rules on that page, as well as page 10 which tells you "Not all Heretic Astartes units are available to all chaos armies" It doesn't reference legions, it references Armies, as in all the units in all the detachments in your army. If you are taking units not on that list you are not a death guard army, and do not have the death guard army rules.
You contradict your own point about the "restrictions". You say I can take A Death Guard Legion unit in a normal heretic asartes army, right? Now read the rule listed under "lords of the Plague Host" where it says: "the battlefield role of Death Guard plague marines is troops instead of elites." How can I take Death Guard Plague marines (which you said I could do) in a normal heretic asartes army and not have them be troops? The rules don't tell me I can, therefore I can't. They have to be troops in that case.
So I guess the point it boils down to is why would you want to take a "DEATH GUARD ARMY", limiting yourself in all of the ways you mention? The answer is either for your own personal fluff purposes (because evidently those words mean something together in that order to you) or because you want army wide synergy where all of the Death Guard characters can buff all of the units in your army. That's it. Personally, I would take a Chaos army so I could take all the Death Guard Plague Marines as troops and characters to buff them and berserkers as troops and characters to buff them any forgeworld units I want. But that's just me.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Evidently, it is to some people. What I don't get is why some people read the rules forcing certain limitations in their mind and then complain that is GW's fault for taking stuff away from them. Gluttons for punishment I guess. Too bad there aren't Emperors Children "restrictions"--those guys would be in their paradise.
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Post by: lessthanjeff
I think what gives people the most trouble here is that a single detachment is no longer forced to come completely from one faction. In 7th, if I built a Space Marine CAD I had to declare what chapter the whole detachment was and I couldn't take Space Marines HQ's with Astra Militarum Heavy Supports in the same CAD.
Now they've made it so you can mix armies within a single detachment as long as they share at least one keyword. You can bring a Death Guard army that includes a few units with a Thousand Sons army that includes a few units all within a single detachment because they both have keyword "chaos".
It's the same idea as bringing CSM with Chaos Daemons. They're different armies but you can combine them within a single detachment now.
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Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer
Gordon Shumway wrote:I think you are missing Yakface's point, blaktoof. If you want to build an army with nothing but units that have the keyword <Death Guard> maybe for fluff purposes , then you are correct. You couldn't take many other units in your army (like any units that require other gods than Nurgle as keywords, for instance or any unit not in that dumb box). But the point is, you are the one doing the limiting here, not the rules because you are the one making the decisions you don't want any units not labeled <Death Guard > for whatever reason. There really is no gaming benefit (other than army wide synergy) for doing so at this time. And there certainly is no requirement that you have to.
There would be a benefit if you can't just add a keyword and make a unit Elite unit a Troops unit. You instead decided the benefit can be gotten without adhering to the restrictions, and then state there is no benefit.
I would like to also point out the FAQ said you can't name a <Regiment> and a <Chapter> the same thing and gain benefits. It doesn't explicitly say that you can't anywhere, but it is implied just like this case.
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Post by: Thommy H
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:Thommy H wrote:It's possibly worth pointing out that with the new detachments, an Elites choice changing to Troops isn't actually a very big deal. Even without this rule, you could take different cult units as compulsory choices in a Vanguard Detachment anyway.
The difference is 4 CP at least probably more. Espically when you consider each one of the cult units can basically replace either a HS, FA, or Elite Choices. So a 12 unit army with 6 HQ choices has 12 CP while Vanguard detachments would only get you 6 CP.
My point was that the old notion that Troops = compulsory choices (and therefore a themed army like Deathwing, White Scars, etc.) doesn't apply in 8th Edition. Note that those Chaos Cult versions are the only example in the Indexes of a 'slot change' a la previous editions, because you don't actually need them now. I can field a Deathwing army without Deathwing Terminators being Troops too.
So given that you can build your army from a mix of Cult units anyway, saying you can't mix them as Troops doesn't make a lot of sense.
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Post by: Gordon Shumway
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Gordon Shumway wrote:I think you are missing Yakface's point, blaktoof. If you want to build an army with nothing but units that have the keyword <Death Guard> maybe for fluff purposes , then you are correct. You couldn't take many other units in your army (like any units that require other gods than Nurgle as keywords, for instance or any unit not in that dumb box). But the point is, you are the one doing the limiting here, not the rules because you are the one making the decisions you don't want any units not labeled <Death Guard > for whatever reason. There really is no gaming benefit (other than army wide synergy) for doing so at this time. And there certainly is no requirement that you have to.
There would be a benefit if you can't just add a keyword and make a unit Elite unit a Troops unit. You instead decided the benefit can be gotten without adhering to the restrictions, and then state there is no benefit.
I would like to also point out the FAQ said you can't name a <Regiment> and a <Chapter> the same thing and gain benefits. It doesn't explicitly say that you can't anywhere, but it is implied just like this case.
Here is what their FAQ actually said: "In the example above, ‘Blood Angels’ is a Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes and ‘Death Guard’ is a Legion of the Heretic Astartes – neither of which are Regiments of the Astra Militarum"
So is it your belief that Death Guard isn't a Legion of the Heretic Astartes, so therefore couldn't be put in place of <Legion> in a HA list? Because for their FAQ to apply in this case, that is what you would have to believe. Of course, the FAQ explicitly says the opposite.
Let's break it down this way:
Can a HA army take units labeled Death Guard? Yes
Can a HA army take plague marines? Yes
What are the rules for when a plague marine unit is labeled Death Guard? They become troops.
The actual restriction is I cannot take a plague marine unit labeled Death Guard and have it be an elites choice. The rules prohibit this. They must be troops.
Please tell me where the loophole or leap of logic or any exception to this takes place. Please cite your sources.
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Post by: Dionysodorus
I don't have the rules in front of me, but is it actually the case that all Thousand Sons Rubric Marines must be Troops (same question for the other special marines, in case some of their army lists are particularly restrictive)? Can't I give my Elite Noise Marines the "Emperor's Children" keyword? Troops Noise Marines are just an entirely separate unit, which happen to be identical to Elite Noise Marines except that instead of having a variable faction keyword they're always EC.
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Post by: Gordon Shumway
Dionysodorus wrote:I don't have the rules in front of me, but is it actually the case that all Thousand Sons Rubric Marines must be Troops (same question for the other special marines, in case some of their army lists are particularly restrictive)? Can't I give my Elite Noise Marines the "Emperor's Children" keyword? Troops Noise Marines are just an entirely separate unit, which happen to be identical to Elite Noise Marines except that instead of having a variable faction keyword they're always EC.
If you give your Noise Marines the EC Legion keyword (which is totally possible because the EC are an HA legion), then they become troops under the rule Masters of the Kakophoni. You can't have EC Noise Marines as an elite.
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Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer
Gordon Shumway wrote:blaktoof wrote:What I am referencing are not fluff points, they are actually RAW restrictions as quoted from the rulebook.
You are applying the general keyword system, and ignoring the specific restrictions called out in the chaos book.
You CAN take a death guard legion unit in a normal heretic astartes army.
However if you are taking a DEATH GUARD ARMY- you have to follow those restrictions.
So you cannot take death guard as troops for example outside of a death guard army- as that is a rule of "DEATH GUARD ARMY RULES" Is the army a death guard army or a heretic astartes army? If it is a deathguard army it is adhereing to those rules, one of those rules is a benefit- death guard plague marines are troops.
Claiming that you can take a death guard army, and take units outside of the list on p.57 is directly going against the rules on that page, as well as page 10 which tells you "Not all Heretic Astartes units are available to all chaos armies" It doesn't reference legions, it references Armies, as in all the units in all the detachments in your army. If you are taking units not on that list you are not a death guard army, and do not have the death guard army rules.
You contradict your own point about the "restrictions". You say I can take A Death Guard Legion unit in a normal heretic asartes army, right? Now read the rule listed under "lords of the Plague Host" where it says: "the battlefield role of Death Guard plague marines is troops instead of elites." How can I take Death Guard Plague marines (which you said I could do) in a normal heretic asartes army and not have them be troops? The rules don't tell me I can, therefore I can't. They have to be troops in that case.
So I guess the point it boils down to is why would you want to take a "DEATH GUARD ARMY", limiting yourself in all of the ways you mention? The answer is either for your own personal fluff purposes (because evidently those words mean something together in that order to you) or because you want army wide synergy where all of the Death Guard characters can buff all of the units in your army. That's it. Personally, I would take a Chaos army so I could take all the Death Guard Plague Marines as troops and characters to buff them and berserkers as troops and characters to buff them any forgeworld units I want. But that's just me.
Because if you take anything other then DG units in your detachment you don't have a DG detachment, you have a Chaos army. A Chaos army does not benefit from the Death Guard Army Rules as it is not a Death Guard Army. So if you bring DG Plague Marines they are Elites, not troops.
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Post by: Jacksmiles
That's so weird because that's clearly not what it says. You can take a Chaos army and have Thousand Sons Rubric troops and Death Guard Plague Marine troops. You fixed a quote earlier in the thread to add "Death Guard Army Rules" but where in the actual rules does it say anything applies to a Death Guard-only detachment? The rules don't say what you want them to, it's very clear.
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Post by: Captyn_Bob
DEATH GUARD ARMY RULES is a heading. Not a rule.
It just lists some dataslates and some generic rules for DG. But I can definitely see the argument.
I don't /think/ "army" is defined anywhere as a specific term. It's used a lot generically tho.
Detachment rules are pretty clear tho, Each unit in a detachment can have a legion, but there's no restriction on mixing legions within detachments.
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Post by: Gordon Shumway
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Gordon Shumway wrote:blaktoof wrote:What I am referencing are not fluff points, they are actually RAW restrictions as quoted from the rulebook.
You are applying the general keyword system, and ignoring the specific restrictions called out in the chaos book.
You CAN take a death guard legion unit in a normal heretic astartes army.
However if you are taking a DEATH GUARD ARMY- you have to follow those restrictions.
So you cannot take death guard as troops for example outside of a death guard army- as that is a rule of "DEATH GUARD ARMY RULES" Is the army a death guard army or a heretic astartes army? If it is a deathguard army it is adhereing to those rules, one of those rules is a benefit- death guard plague marines are troops.
Claiming that you can take a death guard army, and take units outside of the list on p.57 is directly going against the rules on that page, as well as page 10 which tells you "Not all Heretic Astartes units are available to all chaos armies" It doesn't reference legions, it references Armies, as in all the units in all the detachments in your army. If you are taking units not on that list you are not a death guard army, and do not have the death guard army rules.
You contradict your own point about the "restrictions". You say I can take A Death Guard Legion unit in a normal heretic asartes army, right? Now read the rule listed under "lords of the Plague Host" where it says: "the battlefield role of Death Guard plague marines is troops instead of elites." How can I take Death Guard Plague marines (which you said I could do) in a normal heretic asartes army and not have them be troops? The rules don't tell me I can, therefore I can't. They have to be troops in that case.
So I guess the point it boils down to is why would you want to take a "DEATH GUARD ARMY", limiting yourself in all of the ways you mention? The answer is either for your own personal fluff purposes (because evidently those words mean something together in that order to you) or because you want army wide synergy where all of the Death Guard characters can buff all of the units in your army. That's it. Personally, I would take a Chaos army so I could take all the Death Guard Plague Marines as troops and characters to buff them and berserkers as troops and characters to buff them any forgeworld units I want. But that's just me.
Because if you take anything other then DG units in your detachment you don't have a DG detachment, you have a Chaos army. A Chaos army does not benefit from the Death Guard Army Rules as it is not a Death Guard Army. So if you bring DG Plague Marines they are Elites, not troops.
Please cite anywhere in any GW publication that says what you just did. Not implied, actually says. Direct quotations.
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Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer
Gordon Shumway wrote:Here is what their FAQ actually said: "In the example above, ‘Blood Angels’ is a Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes and ‘Death Guard’ is a Legion of the Heretic Astartes – neither of which are Regiments of the Astra Militarum"
So is it your belief that Death Guard isn't a Legion of the Heretic Astartes, so therefore couldn't be put in place of <Legion> in a HA list? Because for their FAQ to apply in this case, that is what you would have to believe. Of course, the FAQ explicitly says the opposite.
Let's break it down this way:
Can a HA army take units labeled Death Guard? Yes
Can a HA army take plague marines? Yes
What are the rules for when a plague marine unit is labeled Death Guard In a Death Guard Army? They become troops.
Is every unit in my Heretic Astartes army Death Guard? No
Then I do not receive the benefits of Death Guard rules, as such my PM are Elites not Troops
The actual restriction is I cannot take a plague marine unit labeled Death Guard and have it be an elites choice. The rules prohibit this. They must be troops.
Please tell me where the loophole or leap of logic or any exception to this takes place. Please cite your sources.
Your flawed logic is in red. You simply stop thinking when you get to where you want to be.
This is one long Strawman. I mentioned the FAQ because you are using the logic that they specifically refute. Just because they do not explicitly say you need an all DG army to gain the benefits of the "Death Guard Army Rules" does not mean that you don't it is implied in the title of the page. Just like it is implied that <Chapter> and <Regiment> can't ever be the same because they are different on a fundamental level.
Again you keep saying "sources" when GW has already said they did not say some things explicitly, they heavily implied them.
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Post by: Gordon Shumway
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Gordon Shumway wrote:Here is what their FAQ actually said: "In the example above, ‘Blood Angels’ is a Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes and ‘Death Guard’ is a Legion of the Heretic Astartes – neither of which are Regiments of the Astra Militarum"
So is it your belief that Death Guard isn't a Legion of the Heretic Astartes, so therefore couldn't be put in place of <Legion> in a HA list? Because for their FAQ to apply in this case, that is what you would have to believe. Of course, the FAQ explicitly says the opposite.
Let's break it down this way:
Can a HA army take units labeled Death Guard? Yes
Can a HA army take plague marines? Yes
What are the rules for when a plague marine unit is labeled Death Guard In a Death Guard Army? They become troops.
Is every unit in my Heretic Astartes army Death Guard? No
Then I do not receive the benefits of Death Guard rules,l as such my PM are Elites not Troops
The actual restriction is I cannot take a plague marine unit labeled Death Guard and have it be an elites choice. The rules prohibit this. They must be troops.
Please tell me where the loophole or leap of logic or any exception to this takes place. Please cite your sources.
Your flawed logic is in red. You simply stop thinking when you get to where you want to be.
This is one long Strawman. I mentioned the FAQ because you are using the logic that they specifically refute. Just because they do not explicitly say you need an all DG army to gain the benefits of the "Death Guard Army Rules" does not mean that you don't it is implied in the title of the page. Just like it is implied that <Chapter> and <Regiment> can't ever be the same because they are different on a fundamental level.
Again you keep saying "sources" when GW has already said they did not say some things explicitly, they heavily implied them.
GW is saying Regiment=\= Chapter in that FAQ. Not Legion=\=Legion. A Legion is fundamentally the same as a Legion. (My god, I cannot believe I actually had to type that).
So you are basing your entire argument on how you interpret what GW may or may not be implying. I am basing my entire argument on what is actually written in the rules. Glad we cleared that up. 
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Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer
Gordon Shumway wrote:Please cite anywhere in any GW publication that says what you just did. Not implied, actually says. Direct quotations.
The Restrictions for Detachments all same the same thing, "All units in this detachment must be the same FACTION"
Under Matched play "All detachments in an Army must have the SAME FACTION"
So your faction is determined by the units in the army not whatever you say.
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Post by: Thommy H
No, you pick a faction keyword that all the units have in common. That can be Chaos, allowing you to take any combination of Legions in the same detachment.
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Post by: Gordon Shumway
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Gordon Shumway wrote:Please cite anywhere in any GW publication that says what you just did. Not implied, actually says. Direct quotations.
The Restrictions for Detachments all same the same thing, "All units in this detachment must be the same FACTION"
Under Matched play "All detachments in an Army must have the SAME FACTION"
So your faction is determined by the units in the army not whatever you say.
Which does nothing to defend the claims you are making.
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Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer
Gordon Shumway wrote:GW is saying Regiment=\= Chapter in that FAQ. Not Legion=\=Legion. A Legion is fundamentally the same as a Legion. (My god, I cannot believe I actually had to type that).
So you are basing your entire argument on how you interpret what GW may or may not be implying. I am basing my entire argument on what is actually written in the rules. Glad we cleared that up.
Again, for the 3rd time now I AM NOT ARGUING THAT LEGION =/= LEGION. I AM SAYING GW HAS ALREADY SAID SOME RULES ARE IMPLIED. Which means we need to infer some rules. Like if they put "Death Guard Army Rules" at the top of the page. That implies that Death Guard has its own set of rules for armies made of entire Death Guard units. One of those rules is that PM become troops choices. Automatically Appended Next Post: Gordon Shumway wrote: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Gordon Shumway wrote:Please cite anywhere in any GW publication that says what you just did. Not implied, actually says. Direct quotations.
The Restrictions for Detachments all same the same thing, "All units in this detachment must be the same FACTION"
Under Matched play "All detachments in an Army must have the SAME FACTION"
So your faction is determined by the units in the army not whatever you say.
Which does nothing to defend the claims you are making.
Why not? You cant just assert that it does not you have to make an argument. Automatically Appended Next Post: Thommy H wrote:No, you pick a faction keyword that all the units have in common. That can be Chaos, allowing you to take any combination of Legions in the same detachment.
Yes, but in doing so you lose any benefits you might gain from having the other key words, Because while your PM have the DG keyword, they are using the CHAOS keyword, which makes them Chaos PM not DG PM
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Post by: Gordon Shumway
I cannot make an argument against rules that you are adding to the rulebook. I'll take the rules that GW actually wrote over what you (and it seems like only you) are inferring from them. But keep on fighting the good fight!
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Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer
Gordon Shumway wrote:I'll take the rules that GW actually wrote over what you (and it seems like only you) are inferring from them.
You do that play the game however you want.
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Post by: Gordon Shumway
I'll play it how GW wrote the rules. 
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Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer
Okay Enjoy your Blood Angels Guard Regiment with your Blood Angels SM Chapter then.
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Post by: Gordon Shumway
I would if I played an imperial army and if GW allowed it, but since I don't and GW doesn't, I won't. Your putting words in my mouth doesn't serve you any better than you putting words in GW's rules.
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Post by: Roknar
To come back to the Legion =/= Legion thing. That's not really the point.
It's <X> army =/= army. So a Deathguard army would not be the same as a Blood Angels army.
That is a legit point. The problem is that this isn't really formalized anywhere and they kind of use the term "army" rather nilly willy. <Legion> and friends is also NOT formalized. You can insert anything you want there.
The intent from the designers has been made clear for the bracketed keywords but just from reading the rules it's not clear what is a valid choice.
In this case you could absolutely read a purpose into the heading being what it is. I don't think that's the case here but I can totally see the argument.
If you say you are using a blood angels army or a death guard army, you opponent will have a pretty good idea what to expect. So it's a term that is actually being used colloquially.
A death guard army is a thing in that sense. It's also not hard to imagine that one would expect a death guard army to consist of models with the death guard keyword.
I don't necessarily agree with him, but if you stop long enough to take this possibility into consideration, then indeed plaguemarines would only be troops in an army where every model contains the DG keyword, since the rules on that page would only apply to such an army. You could still take DG plague marines in an chaos army but they would count as elites.
I really don't see the problem with that train of thought, but to be clear, I don't think that's the actual intent.
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Post by: Thommy H
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Thommy H wrote:No, you pick a faction keyword that all the units have in common. That can be Chaos, allowing you to take any combination of Legions in the same detachment.
Yes, but in doing so you lose any benefits you might gain from having the other key words, Because while your PM have the DG keyword, they are using the CHAOS keyword, which makes them Chaos PM not DG PM
What? You don't lose your other faction keywords when you pick one for your detachment. Do you think that if I put my Adepta Sororitas in an Imperium detachment alongside an Inquisitor, they can't use any abilities that affect Adepta Sororitas? Like, does Celestine's Saintly Blessings ability not work on her Sisters because I brought along Greyfax?
There's no rule that tells you to drop a keyword from a unit. A Death Guard unit is a Death Guard unit no matter what faction its detachment has. That's the whole point of having multiple faction keywords.
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Post by: Gordon Shumway
I totally understand his train of thought and can see where he is coming from, but the problem in this case is there is no actual language in the rules that defends the end result he is claiming. It all relies on intent that he thinks GW is implying, which is open to the eye of the beholder (as your reading of the intent illustrates because you have the exact opposite reading of it than he does).
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Post by: Roknar
There is rule support. But it depends on how much weight you put on the title of their rules section. Taken literally, it is rules for a death guard army, so an army of deathguard, ie all sharing the deathguard keyword. There is nothing in the BRB backing that up, but you could take the title at face value in which case it stands for itself. Hence his line about "what army? an army of deathguard." That doesn't really need more backing. It's still ambigous, but then GW is the king of ambiguous rules so eh.
I think it's not so far fetched that it wouldn't deserve a place on a faq even when I'm pretty certain what the answer will be.
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Post by: puma713
Thommy H wrote:It's possibly worth pointing out that with the new detachments, an Elites choice changing to Troops isn't actually a very big deal. Even without this rule, you could take different cult units as compulsory choices in a Vanguard Detachment anyway.
I was thinking the same thing. I mean, besides filling the Troops slot, is there a point to troops? Of course, I haven't read every Index yet so I am still learning the new Edition, but it looks like Troops are just a cheaper, fillable slot. If you used Vanguard Detachments, you wouldn't even need troops in your army at all.
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Post by: Slinky
Troops are needed for the detachments that give a greater number of CPs.
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Post by: Gordon Shumway
 puma713 wrote:Thommy H wrote:It's possibly worth pointing out that with the new detachments, an Elites choice changing to Troops isn't actually a very big deal. Even without this rule, you could take different cult units as compulsory choices in a Vanguard Detachment anyway.
I was thinking the same thing. I mean, besides filling the Troops slot, is there a point to troops? Of course, I haven't read every Index yet so I am still learning the new Edition, but it looks like Troops are just a cheaper, fillable slot. If you used Vanguard Detachments, you wouldn't even need troops in your army at all.
It isn't really important in that sense, correct (other than possibly having an easier time getting more command points for detatchments), but it is important because it affects other rules interpretations. For example, following the logic that Thousand Son Sorcerer uses above would mean Thyphus or poxwalkers or tzaangors wouldn't be able to be fielded by Chaos keyword armies because their rules don't exist in the Chaos rules, only in the rules under their respective armies, which is pants on head crazy.
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Post by: yakface
 Roknar wrote:There is rule support. But it depends on how much weight you put on the title of their rules section. Taken literally, it is rules for a death guard army, so an army of deathguard, ie all sharing the deathguard keyword. There is nothing in the BRB backing that up, but you could take the title at face value in which case it stands for itself. Hence his line about "what army? an army of deathguard." That doesn't really need more backing. It's still ambigous, but then GW is the king of ambiguous rules so eh.
I think it's not so far fetched that it wouldn't deserve a place on a faq even when I'm pretty certain what the answer will be.
Only if you look at the title of the section without reading what the actual rules say below it. Because none of them suggest you have to have any army ONLY containing that legion keyword to get the one tiny benefit (of moving your cult unit to troops).
And all we have to do is look at the Genestealer Cult to see how GW handles writing rules when they want to limit an army to have specific faction keywords. They aren't strangely ambiguous about it.
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Post by: GodDamUser
I want to know what these magically Death Guard army spec rules are?
Because all I see are some rules for units that have Death Guard <legion> key word.. not any army/detachment wide rules
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Post by: Gordon Shumway
Okay, I think I may have found where some of this confusion is coming from. In the Death Guard Faction Focus published on the Warhammer Community site, Frankie makes this claim, "Furthermore, in an all Death Guard Detachment, Plague Marines are Troops – which can help you unlock more Command Points with a Battalion detachment."
Now Frankie isn't a rules writer, nor does he work for GW, but presumably GW read the article before publishing it. It still isn't the way the rules are written in the books, but it might be where some of the confusion is stemming from.
Here is the link: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/23/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-death-guard/
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Post by: puma713
 Slinky wrote:Troops are needed for the detachments that give a greater number of CPs.
Right, which pales in comparison to the years and years of troop-centered army building. I'm not complaining, its just something for an old 40K vet to get used to.
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Post by: ClassicCarraway
yakface wrote: ClassicCarraway wrote:Remember, in order to field a Khorne Daemonkin army, the ONLY way to do that in 8th is to use the world eaters keyword on Berserkers. Same goes for the 1000 Sons Daemonkin-style build from the campaign books. I dare say it is completely intentional to be allowed to just use the keyword for the cult legions in order to unlock them as troops.
What? There is no Khorne Daemonkin in 8th, nor are there any campaign books.
In 8th edition the actual rules allow you pick any keyword to build your army around (such as 'CHAOS') and then you're free to pick any legion keyword for any of your Heretic Astartes units that you want. If you take the 'real' legions for each of the cult units, then they count as troops units.
Its in the rules. There is nothing saying you have to take ONLY World Eaters legion units in your army in order to get Bezerkers that are troops. The rules just do not say that.
I believe you misunderstood the side I was on for this debate. GW stated any army in 7th was supported in 8th. In order for that to be true, I would have to have the ability to make a Khorne Daemonkin-style army, which allows daemons and Berserkers as troops. Thus, I could take Berserkers with the World Eaters keyword in a detachment that has units without the World Eater keyword and they would still be troops, using just the Chaos and Khorne as my relevant keywords. This allowance is the only way to make such an army that we were assured was still viable.
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Post by: GodDamUser
ClassicCarraway wrote:
I believe you misunderstood the side I was on for this debate. GW stated any army in 7th was supported in 8th. In order for that to be true, I would have to have the ability to make a Khorne Daemonkin-style army, which allows daemons and Berserkers as troops. Thus, I could take Berserkers with the World Eaters keyword in a detachment that has units without the World Eater keyword and they would still be troops, using just the Chaos and Khorne as my relevant keywords. This allowance is the only way to make such an army that we were assured was still viable.
Well there you are just being pedantic about where in the FOC the unit sits.. not that you cannot make the army.
Some units have moved in their respective FOCs, but if you personally wanted to keep your bezerkers as troops then World Eater zerkers they are
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Post by: Cadian16th
Gordon Shumway wrote:...Frankie makes this claim, "Furthermore, in an all Death Guard Detachment, Plague Marines are Troops – which can help you unlock more Command Points with a Battalion detachment."
/
In all fairness, that's correct. However, if people are confused by this, they need to realize he didn't say that Plague Marines = Troops in ONLY "all Death Guard Detachments".
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Post by: Solosam47
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Solosam47 wrote:This isn't 7th ed, this is a new edition. You can do these things now, I have a hunch that now due to wording or should I say lack there of, that I can now take cypher and the fallen in the same army as dark angels. Bonkers right?
But honestly if you give a cult marine a keyword to make it a troop then it's a troop, it just doesn't benefit from synergy of your main army faction.
Honestly you have lost this argument and at this point just running against a wall. GW won't FAQ it cause it is probably intentional. It has its pros and cons and in no way broken.
Yes it can all you have to do is bring 1 HQ choice that shares thier legion, and bam 3 elite units that would have gotten me 1 CP now get me 3 CP.
Not to mention if you read the rule the way I do having every unit in an Army having the WE key word would get you more CP.
Ok so man T-son-sorc, this is confusing cause im really trying to grasp exactly what you are saying and express what I am saying. It sounds like you are almost agreeing with me or I might be agreeing with you just different wording and slight emphases misplacement so let me try this and see what folks say:
I am making an army, a chaos army. I want to maybe model it or paint it so it would look like legion world eaters but I love the rules of alot of other chaos units so I just start tossing stuff in. (This is by no means how I make list but just for arguments sake)
Army Name: World Eaters
Detachment 1:
HQ: Karn "world eater faction"
HQ: Chaos lord "Black Legion"
Troop: World eater Bezerkers
Troop: Death Guard plague marines
Elite: Noise Marines "Black Legion"
Detachment 2:
HQ: Chaos Lord 'Emporers children"
HQ: Sorc "T-sons"
Troop: Emporers children Noise marines
Troop: Rubric Marines T-son
Elite: Bezerkers "black legion"
Ok so lets say this is my army, both detachments consist of only "CHAOS" faction units so by that understanding its legit. Now only the units that share the sub faction of black legion can benefit from their lords buff and only the units with world eaters benefit from their HQ's buffs, so on and so forth. As I interpret what is written is that is legal. The Army itself all are of the chaos faction, I am only limiting myself on synergy because not everyone can benefit from certain buffs like the two types of bezerkers. The entire army is called World Eaters because that is what I wanted to call it since as of right now there is no actual army wide buffs like there was in 7th for any faction really (i.e KDK blood for the blood god rule in 7th or SM chapter tactics) I can call the army the "Sad Sadists on Sunday Marines" if I wanted and it would not change a thing.
Now this is how I am picking up on all this, T-son-sorc, could you use this and point out what and why you think whats wrong so that maybe I can see what you are seeing. I am not playing the rules as implied vs Rules as written subject because I didnt make the rules so I cant say waht is or isnt implied, all I can do is go off what I read in the main rulebook, index, and FAQs.
If there are problems with this thinking I would like to know cause I want to make sure I too am playing the game by the book and as I read it now this is what I am picking up. Of coarse the book is still fresh off the selves and I have not had much time to fully flesh it out and get proficient with it.
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Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer
Solosam47 wrote:
Ok so man T-son-sorc, this is confusing cause im really trying to grasp exactly what you are saying and express what I am saying. It sounds like you are almost agreeing with me or I might be agreeing with you just different wording and slight emphases misplacement so let me try this and see what folks say:
I am making an army, a chaos army. I want to maybe model it or paint it so it would look like legion world eaters but I love the rules of alot of other chaos units so I just start tossing stuff in. (This is by no means how I make list but just for arguments sake)
Army Name: World Eaters
Detachment 1:
HQ: Karn "world eater faction"
HQ: Chaos lord "Black Legion"
Troop: World eater Bezerkers
Troop: Death Guard plague marines
Elite: Noise Marines "Black Legion"
Detachment 2:
HQ: Chaos Lord 'Emporers children"
HQ: Sorc "T-sons"
Troop: Emporers children Noise marines
Troop: Rubric Marines T-son
Elite: Bezerkers "black legion"
Ok so lets say this is my army, both detachments consist of only "CHAOS" faction units so by that understanding its legit. Now only the units that share the sub faction of black legion can benefit from their lords buff and only the units with world eaters benefit from their HQ's buffs, so on and so forth. As I interpret what is written is that is legal. The Army itself all are of the chaos faction, I am only limiting myself on synergy because not everyone can benefit from certain buffs like the two types of bezerkers. The entire army is called World Eaters because that is what I wanted to call it since as of right now there is no actual army wide buffs like there was in 7th for any faction really (i.e KDK blood for the blood god rule in 7th or SM chapter tactics) I can call the army the "Sad Sadists on Sunday Marines" if I wanted and it would not change a thing.
Now this is how I am picking up on all this, T-son-sorc, could you use this and point out what and why you think whats wrong so that maybe I can see what you are seeing. I am not playing the rules as implied vs Rules as written subject because I didnt make the rules so I cant say waht is or isnt implied, all I can do is go off what I read in the main rulebook, index, and FAQs.
If there are problems with this thinking I would like to know cause I want to make sure I too am playing the game by the book and as I read it now this is what I am picking up. Of coarse the book is still fresh off the selves and I have not had much time to fully flesh it out and get proficient with it.
All I am saying is that you need your entire army to be the same faction to benefit from the Army Rules of that faction.
So if we had strategems for WE and a person brought Rubric Marines in thier army then they dont get to use the WE strategems. Same thing goes for getting Berserkers as Troops.
As for your example everything in the troops slots would simply be moved to the elites slot.
To the point of there being no army wide buffs. Your asserting that there are no army wide buffs, but with my interpretation the buffs to these armies would be the ability to bring Elites choices as a troops choice.
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Post by: yakface
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:All I am saying is that you need your entire army to be the same faction to benefit from the Army Rules of that faction.
So if we had strategems for WE and a person brought Rubric Marines in thier army then they dont get to use the WE strategems. Same thing goes for getting Berserkers as Troops.
As for your example everything in the troops slots would simply be moved to the elites slot.
To the point of there being no army wide buffs. Your asserting that there are no army wide buffs, but with my interpretation the buffs to these armies would be the ability to bring Elites choices as a troops choice.
So what about the rest of these 'army' rules, do they also not apply unless you take an entire army with the specified keyword?
So if I take an army based around the 'CHAOS' keyword, and I include a Daemon Prince and give him the THOUSAND SONS keyword, I'm allowed to give that model the mark of Khorne, Slaanesh or Nurgle? Because I'm not taking a 'Thousand Sons Army' (as you call it), that means none of the 'army' rules for Thousand Sons apply, right?
What you are trying to claim, for the 1,000th time does not have any basis in the rules. Look at Genestealer Cult for how rules that actually restrict what can be included in an army are written.
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Post by: Gordon Shumway
Is there anything else to add to the discussion, or are we done here, because at this point it feels like a pile upon a good, well meaning, solid contributor who will not see it any way but his his own?
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Post by: GodDamUser
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:All I am saying is that you need your entire army to be the same faction to benefit from the Army Rules of that faction.
So if we had strategems for WE and a person brought Rubric Marines in thier army then they dont get to use the WE strategems. Same thing goes for getting Berserkers as Troops.
As for your example everything in the troops slots would simply be moved to the elites slot.
To the point of there being no army wide buffs. Your asserting that there are no army wide buffs, but with my interpretation the buffs to these armies would be the ability to bring Elites choices as a troops choice.
The thing is at this stage there are no 'Army Wide Rules'
They do exist in AoS, and are likely to exist in the individual codex's once they are released, but at this stage with the index's there are no such thing
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Post by: Solosam47
GodDamUser wrote: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:All I am saying is that you need your entire army to be the same faction to benefit from the Army Rules of that faction.
So if we had strategems for WE and a person brought Rubric Marines in thier army then they dont get to use the WE strategems. Same thing goes for getting Berserkers as Troops.
As for your example everything in the troops slots would simply be moved to the elites slot.
To the point of there being no army wide buffs. Your asserting that there are no army wide buffs, but with my interpretation the buffs to these armies would be the ability to bring Elites choices as a troops choice.
The thing is at this stage there are no 'Army Wide Rules'
They do exist in AoS, and are likely to exist in the individual codex's once they are released, but at this stage with the index's there are no such thing
Ok T-son-sorc, I see what you are saying now, thank you. I have not really read into the stratagems yet as I am still going over core rules and what not. How my train of thought at present as to what I consider the rule really hasnt changed and in essence while yes I can move things to elite, at the games current state I really dont have too if I choose not to, not as a house rule or anything but as rules written. The reason for this is just as GodDamUser said in that no actual army wide rules exist yet to provide army wide buffs. Currently the only buffs are to specific faction from specific models in a bubble.
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Post by: lessthanjeff
Here is the response from the Warhammer 40,000 team.
1
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Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer
Can I get a link to the post please.
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Post by: lessthanjeff
Sure, if you can tell me how to link to one specific post on facebook. It's on the Warhammer 40,000 facebook page if you look at the community posts where people have been asking them rules questions. They said to bring questions there since they're in direct contact with the rules writers and they don't want to open question forms directly to them or they'd never get anything done.
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Post by: GodDamUser
The question for people who cannot see the pic.
'Can I take pkague bearers in my Deathguard army.. because Plaugebearers are not on the list'
The answer
'Yes as they share atleast 1 faction key word'
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Post by: Thommy H
Actually it asks if an army can include Plaguebearers and Death Guard Plague Marines as Troops, which is an important distinction. The answer is yes.
And, as an addendum, it raises an important point not so-far addressed in this debate: if a "Death Guard army" can only include the units listed, does that suggest you can't have Nurgle's favoured Legion fighting alongside his own daemons? If we accept the premise that Cult Units as Troops = whole army with <Legion> faction, then that must be so, right?
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Post by: lessthanjeff
Thommy H wrote:Actually it asks if an army can include Plaguebearers and Death Guard Plague Marines as Troops, which is an important distinction. The answer is yes.
And, as an addendum, it raises an important point not so-far addressed in this debate: if a "Death Guard army" can only include the units listed, does that suggest you can't have Nurgle's favoured Legion fighting alongside his own daemons? If we accept the premise that Cult Units as Troops = whole army with <Legion> faction, then that must be so, right?
I think I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.
This debate started when Thousand Sons Sorcerer said my World Eater's Battalion with 2 units of khorne berserkers and 1 unit of bloodletters was illegal because I did not have 3 troop choices in it. The question I asked the team shows that it is a valid detachment.
I think the important takeaway is to understand that a single detachment can include units from multiple armies now. You still have a "Death Guard" army fighting with a Nurgle Daemon army all within one detachment because they're buddy buddy like that and have a common goal.
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Post by: Thommy H
I wasn't endorsing the interpretation in my last sentence - quite the opposite! It was a use of reductio ad absurdum.
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Post by: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer
Yes Gordon, You guys were right I was wrong.
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