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Title says it all.

Depends on Detachment

but unlike Death Guard that lists out the exact units allowed, EMP only states every unit between pages 16-42

As long as all units in your army share a single faction keyword and you give each cult unit its 'correct' legion keyword (e.g. Plague Marines get the Deathguard keyword), then absolutely.

You just limit ability synergies a bit doing this, that's all.

 Talamare wrote:
Depends on Detachment

but unlike Death Guard that lists out the exact units allowed, EMP only states every unit between pages 16-42

Just so you know, the other army types that list specific units (like with the Deathguard) that actually only limits which units can be given the Deathguard legion keyword, not which can be included in your army.

Depends what you mean as an "Emperors Children Army".

If you mean an army that entirely has the EC keyword, then no.

But you can still take mostly EC units and the other cult units as Death guard , world eaters and thousand sons.

Not a problem at the moment, but there may be proper EC detachment later. Maybe. :s

Wow thats amazing most of the people on here actually think this...

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Wow thats amazing moatbof the people on here actually think this...

Seriously, just clear out your preconceptions of what you think the rules are saying, and go back and re-read what they actually say.

The legion rules do not limit what units you can take in your army, just what units can get specific legion keywords, and what benefits those units do get when taking those specific legion keywords.

 yakface wrote:
Seriously, just clear out your preconceptions of what you think the rules are saying, and go back and re-read what they actually say.

The legion rules do not limit what units you can take in your army, just what units can get specific legion keywords, and what benefits those units do get when taking those specific legion keywords.

Im not saying they limit what you take.

I'm saying if you bring them you don't get to take them as Troops, there is no reason you should get a free upgrade for those units by simply adding a keyword.

The detachments all same the same thing every unit in the detachment must be from the SAME faction. That means you have to pick a faction, which means you cant benefit from both WE and Chaos at the same time. Simply having a keyword that makes the unit that is normally an elites choice a troops choice makes no sense, its not even mildly reasonable. Why would they just give you access to free CP like that? Why have any restrictions on any of the units? Since you can just add a keyword and get the upgrade with out ever suffering any kind of hindrance.

According to your logic, I can have Rubric Marines as a troops choice in a Khorne army

Its really simple the army Faction is determined by the keyword you choose for your detachment(s), the lowest common keyword. That is your army faction, if you have a WE army (i.e. every unit in the army has the WE keyword) then you have the ability to take Berserkers as troops, but I'm sorry you cannot add a keyword and just get to take Elites as Troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Depends what you mean as an "Emperors Children Army".

If you mean an army that entirely has the EC keyword, then no.

But you can still take mostly EC units and the other cult units as Death guard , world eaters and thousand sons.

Not a problem at the moment, but there may be proper EC detachment later. Maybe. :s

No I mean can I Bring World Eater Berserkers as a Troops choice in an EC army.

The answer is yes, you can. There are positives and negatives to this of course.

Essentially Thousand Sons Rubrics are Troops, and Rubric Marines (Legion) are elites.

Just as (Emperors Children) Noise Marines are Troops and Noise Marines (Legion) are Elites.

So yes you can bring berserkers as troops in your EC army but they wont benefit from any synergy. Because Troop Berserkers are World Eaters.

As codexes come out we will see the downside of this more and more of course. For instance Death Guard only get to use their Psychic spells if you take a plague caster, a regular DeathGuard sorceror has to still take Heretic Astartes.

Or as in my army I have Rubric Marines (Thousand Sons) and Ahriman (Thousand Sons) But the rest of my army is my own Tzeentch chaos space marines. So my Demon Prince doesnt give them rerolls of 1 to hit but does give my noise marines rerolls of 1. (Which is fine because the Tsons have flamers anyway)

However I think youll see more and more mono builds for armies as codexes come out and you can get benefits for sticking with one key word. I fully expect DeathGuard codex to give alot of synergy to full DeathGuard Keyworded units and a little bit to Nurgle keyworded units.

It looks like I confused the initial question as well...
I read "Can I bring all 4 Chaos CULTIST Units as troops choices"
Just assuming you misspelled Cultist, or used Cult for short of Cultist.

When it seems to meant, KB, PM, NM, and RM. So I suppose the title did NOT say it all.

 yakface wrote:

Just so you know, the other army types that list specific units (like with the Deathguard) that actually only limits which units can be given the Deathguard legion keyword, not which can be included in your army.

I mean on pg30 it states that "Additional Restriction apply to TS and DG - Not all HA Units are available to all to all CSM armies."

Ok calm down sorceror, tell us what happened i.e. why you started this thread with little to no information in order to catch people out. Is there a point to this or do you just want to argue with someone?

(Disclaimer: everyone here knows that an EC armies cannot take the other cult units as troop choices but your poorly worded question has thrown some people off)

 Talamare wrote:
It looks like I confused the initial question as well...
I read "Can I bring all 4 Chaos CULTIST Units as troops choices"
Just assuming you misspelled Cultist, or used Cult for short of Cultist.

When it seems to meant, KB, PM, NM, and RM. So I suppose the title did NOT say it all.

Point taken changed the Title to be more clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Ok calm down sorceror, tell us what happened i.e. why you started this thread with little to no information in order to catch people out. Is there a point to this or do you just want to argue with someone?

(Disclaimer: everyone here knows that an EC armies cannot take the other cult units as troop choices but your poorly worded question has thrown some people off)

People saying by adding the WE keyword to Berserkers you get them as troops.

I'm bringing them here.

By adding the WE keyword to bezerkers, you get them as troops.
Said it.
Army has to have same faction. That faction can be CHAOS.

Yeah, this started in the Thousand Sons Tactics Thread because of me apparently. I've been trying to explain that the Thousand Sons army rules do not have a restriction on which units you can take in the detachment. The only restriction is on which units can get the actual "Thousand Sons" keyword.

There are literally dataslates that have Rubric Marines as troops (page 54) so they can be taken in any detachment that only has "Chaos" as a keyword even if other units in the detachment don't have "Thousand Sons". The downside being that a character's aura would not affect all units if they don't all have the same Legion keyword.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
Yeah, this started in the Thousand Sons Tactics Thread because of me apparently. I've been trying to explain that the Thousand Sons army rules do not have a restriction on which units you can take in the detachment. The only restriction is on which units can get the actual "Thousand Sons" keyword.

There are literally dataslates that have Rubric Marines as troops (page 54) so they can be taken in any detachment that only has "Chaos" as a keyword even if other units in the detachment don't have "Thousand Sons". The downside being that a character's aura would not affect all units if they don't all have the same Legion keyword.

Except pg30 states that those are restrictions on which units a DG/TS army can take.

Nope, it's a list of units that can have the THOUSAND SONS, legion keyword.

 Talamare wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:
Yeah, this started in the Thousand Sons Tactics Thread because of me apparently. I've been trying to explain that the Thousand Sons army rules do not have a restriction on which units you can take in the detachment. The only restriction is on which units can get the actual "Thousand Sons" keyword.

There are literally dataslates that have Rubric Marines as troops (page 54) so they can be taken in any detachment that only has "Chaos" as a keyword even if other units in the detachment don't have "Thousand Sons". The downside being that a character's aura would not affect all units if they don't all have the same Legion keyword.

Except pg30 states that those are restrictions on which units a DG/TS army can take.

You must have a different book than me. My page 30 from the chaos index doesn't have any rules for the thousand sons or death guard armies. Where I do have the rules for the armies, the only restriction given is that the listed units get to have the legion "Death Guard" or "Thousand Sons" keywords instead. I originally assume it would say something like only units with those keywords could be included in the army but it doesn't.

It seems to be the same situation that allows an Imperial Army to have a troop choice Blood Claw right next to a troop choice Skitarii Ranger. Otherwise, they couldn't mix their units either because the Space Wolves army has the rules worded the same way as the Thousand Sons one and that would mean you can't have non Space Wolves units in the detachment.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
It seems to be the same situation that allows an Imperial Army to have a troop choice Blood Claw right next to a troop choice Skitarii Ranger. Otherwise, they couldn't mix their units either because the Space Wolves army has the rules worded the same way as the Thousand Sons one and that would mean you can't have non Space Wolves units in the detachment.

You can't that's why you have to use Imperium as the keyword, rather then Space Wolves. The thing that lets you take Blood Claws as a troops choice is the fact that Blood Claws are a troops choice all the time, Khorne Berserkers are not a Troops Choice normally.

This is real simple your Army has a faction, you don't choose that faction, its determined by Keywords. DG have special rules for their army PM are Troops choices if you want PM as troops choices then every unit in your army must have the DG keyword.

You keep saying every unit in your army has to have the DG keyword, but I've yet to see you provide the reference for that rule. The detachment rules only say each unit must have "at least one faction keyword in common". The data stale on page 60 shows Plague Marines (for example) as troops with no special requirement on how or when you can use it. The Death Guard Army rules only state "The Heretic Astartes datasheets listed to the right can be from the Death Guard Legion" instead of having the very different line you keep getting out of it "The Heretic Astartes datasheets listed to the right are the only ones that can be included in the detachment."

Maybe it would help you to stop trying to name all the units in the detachment under one umbrella? Think of it like the wars fought on Cadia and Fenris. There are forces from several different armies fighting together on one battlefield and that's what GW has tried to permit more of in this edition. You're fielding some World Eater's forces alongside some Thousand Sons forces as they fight together.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
This is real simple your Army has a faction, you don't choose that faction, its determined by Keywords. DG have special rules for their army PM are Troops choices if you want PM as troops choices then every unit in your army must have the DG keyword.

You keep saying that, but you don't have any actual rules to back up your stance. So you might *want* the rules to work they way you're saying that they do, but they do not.

Let me show you:

I build an army using 'Chaos' as my keyword. In that army I take Plague Marines and give them the DEATH GUARD legion keyword. I take Rubric Marines and give them the THOUSAND SONS legion keyword. I take Khorne Bezerkers and give them the WORLD EATERS legion keyword, and I take Noise Marines and give them the EMPEROR'S CHILDREN legion keyword.

Can I give every unit a different legion faction keyword? Pg 10 of the Chaos Index:

If a Heretic Astartes datasheet does not specify which Legion it is drawn from, it will have the <Legion> keyword. When you include such a unit in your army, you must nominate which Legion that unit is from.

So yes, I can give every unit a different legion keyword.

Now, what do I get for giving each of these cult unit types its 'native' legion? Again, the rules tell us (these are all quotes):

The Battlefield Role of WORLD EATERS Khorne Bezerkers is Troops instead of Elites.
The Battlefield Role of DEATH GUARD Plague Marines s is Troops instead of Elites.
The Battlefield Role of THOUSAND SONS Rubric Marines is Troops instead of Elites.
The Battlefield Role of EMPEROR'S CHILDREN Noise Marines is Troops instead of Elites.

And there it is. NOTHING in the rules states that you have to choose a specific legion keyword to build your army around to get these benefits at all. Because there is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Yes, you get to take all different cult units as a troops choice, but you've now lost the ability to give those units benefits from your characters that give specific legions benefits.

If you want a mainly Emperor's Children force, then you're going to build your army around units mostly with the EC keyword, because that's going to allow your auras to be used by any of your units. You could decide to put, say, a unit of Khorne Bezerkers in the force and also give them the EC keyword (allowing them to use your auras), but they'll be an Elites choice. Or you can make them World Eaters Bezerkers, in which case they'll be a troops choice, but now you likely won't have any auras in your army that will benefit them.

 yakface wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
This is real simple your Army has a faction, you don't choose that faction, its determined by Keywords. DG have special rules for their army PM are Troops choices if you want PM as troops choices then every unit in your army must have the DG keyword.

You keep saying that, but you don't have any actual rules to back up your stance. So you might *want* the rules to work they way you're saying that they do, but they do not.

Let me show you:

I build an army using 'Chaos' as my keyword. In that army I take Plague Marines and give them the DEATH GUARD legion keyword. I take Rubric Marines and give them the THOUSAND SONS legion keyword. I take Khorne Bezerkers and give them the WORLD EATERS legion keyword, and I take Noise Marines and give them the EMPEROR'S CHILDREN legion keyword.

Can I give every unit a different legion faction keyword? Pg 10 of the Chaos Index:

If a Heretic Astartes datasheet does not specify which Legion it is drawn from, it will have the <Legion> keyword. When you include such a unit in your army, you must nominate which Legion that unit is from.

So yes, I can give every unit a different legion keyword.

Now, what do I get for giving each of these cult unit types its 'native' legion? Again, the rules tell us (these are all quotes):

The Battlefield Role of WORLD EATERS Khorne Bezerkers is Troops instead of Elites.
The Battlefield Role of DEATH GUARD Plague Marines s is Troops instead of Elites.
The Battlefield Role of THOUSAND SONS Rubric Marines is Troops instead of Elites.
The Battlefield Role of EMPEROR'S CHILDREN Noise Marines is Troops instead of Elites.

And there it is. NOTHING in the rules states that you have to choose a specific legion keyword to build your army around to get these benefits at all. Because there is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Yes, you get to take all different cult units as a troops choice, but you've now lost the ability to give those units benefits from your characters that give specific legions benefits.

If you want a mainly Emperor's Children force, then you're going to build your army around units mostly with the EC keyword, because that's going to allow your auras to be used by any of your units. You could decide to put, say, a unit of Khorne Bezerkers in the force and also give them the EC keyword (allowing them to use your auras), but they'll be an Elites choice. Or you can make them World Eaters Bezerkers, in which case they'll be a troops choice, but now you likely won't have any auras in your army that will benefit them.

None of those units are Troops because your army is Chaos not DG, not WE, not TS, not EC. Those Changes are all under sections, titled "<Legion> Army Rules". You do not PICK your army faction you determine it from the units you have in your army.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
None of those units are Troops because your army is Chaos not DG, not WE, not TS, not EC. Those Changes are all under sections, titled "<Legion> Army Rules". You do not PICK your army faction you determine it from the units you have in your army.

As soon as you can find something in the rules backing up what you're saying, then you'd have a point. However, there aren't any rules saying you have to stick to a single legion keyword on all your units in order to get those benefits.

It would have been really, really easy for GW to write the rules to say what you're saying, but they didn't because you're specifically supposed to be able to include allied elements within your forces if you want.

pg 57 of the Chaos Index

Forces of the Death Guard

The Heretic Astartes datasheets listed to the right can be from the DeathGuard Legion. Those that have the (Legion) keyword on their datasheet can replace it in all instances with DeathGuard. If a heretic Astartes unit does not appear in the list to the right it cannot have the Death Guard Faction Keyword.

Servants of Nurgle
If a DeathGuard unit has the (Mark of Chaos) keyword it must be Nurgle. Similiarly Death Guard DP's must owe their allegiance to Nurgle.

Lord of the Plague Host
The battlefield role of (Death Guard) Plague Marines is Troops instead of Elites.

Thats all the Deathguard relevant rules.

So it says that DeathGuard Plague Marines are Troops. It doesnt say If all units in this BattleForged army have the DeathGUard faction then their battle field role is changed to Troops. Which is what you're trying to argue it is saying. Each Datasheet has the appropriate Keywords, so Death Guard Plague Marines are troops but The Righteous Plague Marines are elites because only DeathGuard Plague Marines can be troops.

demontalons wrote:
pg 57 of the Chaos Index

Death Guard Army Rules

Forces of the Death Guard

The Heretic Astartes datasheets listed to the right can be from the DeathGuard Legion. Those that have the (Legion) keyword on their datasheet can replace it in all instances with DeathGuard. If a heretic Astartes unit does not appear in the list to the right it cannot have the Death Guard Faction Keyword.

Servants of Nurgle
If a DeathGuard unit has the (Mark of Chaos) keyword it must be Nurgle. Similiarly Death Guard DP's must owe their allegiance to Nurgle.

Lord of the Plague Host
The battlefield role of (Death Guard) Plague Marines is Troops instead of Elites.

Thats all the Deathguard relevant rules.

So it says that DeathGuard Plague Marines are Troops. It doesnt say If all units in this BattleForged army have the DeathGUard faction then their battle field role is changed to Troops. Which is what you're trying to argue it is saying. Each Datasheet has the appropriate Keywords, so Death Guard Plague Marines are troops but The Righteous Plague Marines are elites because only DeathGuard Plague Marines can be troops.

Added a thing you forgot.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

demontalons wrote:
pg 57 of the Chaos Index

Death Guard Army Rules

Forces of the Death Guard

The Heretic Astartes datasheets listed to the right can be from the DeathGuard Legion. Those that have the (Legion) keyword on their datasheet can replace it in all instances with DeathGuard. If a heretic Astartes unit does not appear in the list to the right it cannot have the Death Guard Faction Keyword.

Servants of Nurgle
If a DeathGuard unit has the (Mark of Chaos) keyword it must be Nurgle. Similiarly Death Guard DP's must owe their allegiance to Nurgle.

Lord of the Plague Host
The battlefield role of (Death Guard) Plague Marines is Troops instead of Elites.

Thats all the Deathguard relevant rules.

So it says that DeathGuard Plague Marines are Troops. It doesnt say If all units in this BattleForged army have the DeathGUard faction then their battle field role is changed to Troops. Which is what you're trying to argue it is saying. Each Datasheet has the appropriate Keywords, so Death Guard Plague Marines are troops but The Righteous Plague Marines are elites because only DeathGuard Plague Marines can be troops.

Added a thing you forgot.

And still nowhere does it mention that a Death Guard detachment/army must be made up entirely of <Death Guard> units.

 yakface wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
None of those units are Troops because your army is Chaos not DG, not WE, not TS, not EC. Those Changes are all under sections, titled "<Legion> Army Rules". You do not PICK your army faction you determine it from the units you have in your army.

As soon as you can find something in the rules backing up what you're saying, then you'd have a point. However, there aren't any rules saying you have to stick to a single legion keyword on all your units in order to get those benefits.

It would have been really, really easy for GW to write the rules to say what you're saying, but they didn't because you're specifically supposed to be able to include allied elements within your forces if you want.

You know what fine. Ill just wait for the FAQ.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 yakface wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
None of those units are Troops because your army is Chaos not DG, not WE, not TS, not EC. Those Changes are all under sections, titled "<Legion> Army Rules". You do not PICK your army faction you determine it from the units you have in your army.

As soon as you can find something in the rules backing up what you're saying, then you'd have a point. However, there aren't any rules saying you have to stick to a single legion keyword on all your units in order to get those benefits.

It would have been really, really easy for GW to write the rules to say what you're saying, but they didn't because you're specifically supposed to be able to include allied elements within your forces if you want.

You know what fine. Ill just wait for the FAQ.

You could, but why bother restricting yourself to rules that only exist in your head in the meantime? Really, they are clearly written as is.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

demontalons wrote:
pg 57 of the Chaos Index

Death Guard Army Rules

Forces of the Death Guard

The Heretic Astartes datasheets listed to the right can be from the DeathGuard Legion. Those that have the (Legion) keyword on their datasheet can replace it in all instances with DeathGuard. If a heretic Astartes unit does not appear in the list to the right it cannot have the Death Guard Faction Keyword.

Servants of Nurgle
If a DeathGuard unit has the (Mark of Chaos) keyword it must be Nurgle. Similiarly Death Guard DP's must owe their allegiance to Nurgle.

Lord of the Plague Host
The battlefield role of (Death Guard) Plague Marines is Troops instead of Elites.

Thats all the Deathguard relevant rules.

So it says that DeathGuard Plague Marines are Troops. It doesnt say If all units in this BattleForged army have the DeathGUard faction then their battle field role is changed to Troops. Which is what you're trying to argue it is saying. Each Datasheet has the appropriate Keywords, so Death Guard Plague Marines are troops but The Righteous Plague Marines are elites because only DeathGuard Plague Marines can be troops.

Added a thing you forgot.

And still nowhere does it mention that a Death Guard detachment/army must be made up entirely of <Death Guard> units.

What are the requirements for Detachments? Oh yeah every model must have the same faction. but that doesn't count because reasons.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

demontalons wrote:
pg 57 of the Chaos Index

Death Guard Army Rules

Forces of the Death Guard

The Heretic Astartes datasheets listed to the right can be from the DeathGuard Legion. Those that have the (Legion) keyword on their datasheet can replace it in all instances with DeathGuard. If a heretic Astartes unit does not appear in the list to the right it cannot have the Death Guard Faction Keyword.

Servants of Nurgle
If a DeathGuard unit has the (Mark of Chaos) keyword it must be Nurgle. Similiarly Death Guard DP's must owe their allegiance to Nurgle.

Lord of the Plague Host
The battlefield role of (Death Guard) Plague Marines is Troops instead of Elites.

Thats all the Deathguard relevant rules.

So it says that DeathGuard Plague Marines are Troops. It doesnt say If all units in this BattleForged army have the DeathGUard faction then their battle field role is changed to Troops. Which is what you're trying to argue it is saying. Each Datasheet has the appropriate Keywords, so Death Guard Plague Marines are troops but The Righteous Plague Marines are elites because only DeathGuard Plague Marines can be troops.

Added a thing you forgot.

And still nowhere does it mention that a Death Guard detachment/army must be made up entirely of <Death Guard> units.

What are the requirements for Detachments? Oh yeah every model must have the same faction. but that doesn't count because reasons.

Good thing that all Death Guard units have the chaos faction keyword then. Looks like you're covered!

I'm not seeing anything in the index that says your entire army or detachment has to be Death Guard for a specific unit to count as Death Guard for the purpose of those role-changing rules.

Yeah, I haven't understood this argument either. Literally every other post in YMDC where people ask this same question has it quickly answered and everyone agrees and moves on with their lives. I'm honestly kind of impressed.

Can you explain to me the rules justification for saying an Imperial Army can take Blood Claws even though that is a dataslate reserved for Space Wolves armies only while simultaneously saying a Chaos army cannot take Plague Marines as troops?

In past editions, I completely agree that everything within a detachment had to have the exact same faction. Hell, I even thought that was the case the first time you said my World Eater's list with bloodletters in it was illegal, but the more evidence you tried to provide the more I saw the rules and the designers had said the opposite. They want detachments to include units from multiple armies within certain bounds (like not allying Druhkari and Slaanesh) but to say separate chaos force cannot fight together is inconsistent with that goal.