I never got a chance to play yet since I have packed everything into a box so bought a Get Started Tyranid box to start over again. So I am curious how are people on Dakka are liking the new edition. Are you enjoying the new edition? If so, why? If not how come? How about your army you play and collect with?

I'm enjoying 8th quite a lot. It feels like a lot of the gameplay decision-making has been preserved while the fiddly-bits rules lookups, arguments, and incessant save-stacking is gone; the end result feels like I'm still playing 40k, just much more quickly/easily than before.

There are still a few things that need correcting (there needs to be some kind of clarification/understanding that line-of-sight measures to/from the main hull of a vehicle, no more Land Raider using its antenna to fire lascannons at another Land Raider because it can see the antenna, for instance), but I suspect either GW will handle that or one of the tournament-FAQ people will.

As for my armies I'm unhappy with the Grey Knights (lots of utterly unnecessary nerfs), on the fence about the Eldar (DE and Harlequins got a whole lot of toys we didn't over in the Craftworlds) and the rest of the Inquisition (I still want real Stormtroopers back), and happy with Space Marines (or at least happy enough I'm porting my 30k army's lore back into 40k).

Overall I'm liking everything about the core-game and the necessary flattening of the army rules.

Disliking that they chose the least popular, and LAMEST Blood Angel characters to be must-take 'aura givers'.

There are also several point cost issues that I think they could easily fix, and it sounds like they intend to deal with that sort of thing.

Disappointed; My entire IG army style/ theme was dragged outside, shot in the back of the head, burned with petroleum and dumped in an unmarked grave.

My entire idea was a Fortress Defence Force, a regiment specializing in anchoring a line/ holding a fortified area for as long as humanly possible.

To that end, I used Veterans as troops and gave them ALL camo cloaks and carapace armour (even in 7th, I know it wasn't points effective at all but it was my theme). 8th Edition fethed them over by removing Carapace and Camo Cloak options and salting the wounds by making them Elites instead of Troops.

To top it all off, I have a Fortress and that has been massively gimped in utility in 8th (with the sole benefit being durability). It is more expensive for a less reliable gun platform (at 1/3rd wounds, it's basically useless) that can't even carry what it could before (it could hold 4 units previously and now it's down to 1).

8th ed the rules? I am loving them! I've had a few games now and things are looking very balanced, fast paced, no more pissing about in the psychic phase and the fight phases are so brutal!

8th ed my army? I've got a love hate relationship with it at the moment: I love that most of the units have got a nice boost and that my Bezerkers will dominate almost any fight phase but I hate the fact that Legion rules and artifacts have gone, it makes the army feel less personal.

I would definitely recommend this edition to anyone because the base rules are pretty good and most peoples gripes will likely be seen to in the release of Codeces again.

Love that my ad mech is now one army as it should have always been instead of two.

My GSC, well they got more expensive, much worse, and lost their sugnature special rule. So now they're purple orks that cost more.

In terms of the rules? I have some nitpicks:
- I really hate the removal of initiative.
- I don't like that you no longer compare your WS to that of your opponent.
- The movement stat seems a bit dubious. Firstly because the differences between models for different races are negligible compared to the differences between different types of model (e.g. a DE Warrior having an extra inch of movement over a marine means nothing when a Jump Pack gets an extra 6" of movement).
- Also, it seems moronic that neither Charge distances nor the extra movement from Advancing make use of the model's move stat.
- The character targeting rules seem more than a little off. "The swirling maelstrom of battle can make it difficult to pick out such individuals as targets." Okay, so why is it that you can shoot a terminator captain just in front of a squad of near-identical terminators, but you can't shoot a daemon prince standing behind a single cultist half his size?

All that said, I do like a lot of 8th and I think it is an improvement over 7th in most areas. I especially like that infantry is now actually worthwhile - as opposed to being something Wraithknights occasionally step in.


In terms of the armies I play:

DE:
- Their anti-tank weapons have improved to the degree that they're actually good for the first time in about 4 editions. So that's something.
- On the other hand, their transports specially-designed for fast-disembarking operate in exactly the same way as everyone else's (can't disembark after moving). Sigh.
- What really kills it for me though is the characters. We've got few enough to begin with, and now every single ability or piece of wargear that was even remotely interesting has been removed entirely. Have we been given anything in return like, say, the HQs we lost in 7th or the Jetbike and Skyboard options we lost in 5th? Nope. Oh, and Urien lost his defining ability. Because it' fine for other army's HQs to regenerate, but not the special character whose regeneration is the entire reason for his current appearance.

Overall: I've heard that DE are strong now, but the characters (or lack thereof) just kill any interest I might otherwise have in playing them.


Necrons:
- I prefer the new RP rule to the one in 7th.
- Really annoying that HQs don't even have a watered-down version of it though.
- Also, why can the Destroyer Lord take a Phylactery but an Overlord can't?
- I'd have liked to see one of our fast HQs (CCB or Destroyer Lord) have a buff that worked on Praetorians and/or Wraiths.
- That aside, Necrons look pretty good. Most of their special characters are at least passable, and more than a few actually look pretty good. Their regular HQs are very nice and I like that there's a reason to take multiple, different HQs in your army.

Overall: Looking forward to playing them.


IG:
- Infantry squads are cheap and flexible (and no longer get vaporised on turn 1).
- HWSs are cheap and decent.
- Company Commanders are cheap and harder to snipe.
- I love that you can now have an IG army led by St. Celestine.
- Scions are really good.
- Plasma is no longer outclassed by other weapons.

Overall: Really loving how infantry guard are looking in this edition.

The rules seem fine to me, but I don't llike the new rule that you can only use named characters to be themselves in their parent chapter. I play Lamenters and thereby lose Dante, Corbulo, Lemartes, Tycho and Mephiston. I can live with that, but I can't take the Sanguinor or Astorath even though their fluff says they go to all BA chapters... I'll get Malakim Phoros from the FW book, but that hardly makes up for it, IMO.

I also use Astral Claws, and I am hoping they at least will get some love from the FW book.

At least my Phoenix Lords can go anywhere, and I never really use Chaos Marine special characters anyway.

Too marine oriented in the lore. Nothing new there, though. Sadly the Marine to the Marine'th power-- aka Primaris Marines, which are described as (Marine(Marine+Marine))^Marine in terms of strength-- are just a natural continuation of the ridiculous trend that's been going on for a while.

Rules look good though. At least, most factions feel more equal than in strength anyway. So that's a good start.

 Fifty wrote:
The rules seem fine to me, but I don't llike the new rule that you can only use named characters to be themselves in their parent chapter. I play Lamenters and thereby lose Dante, Corbulo, Lemartes, Tycho and Mephiston. I can live with that, but I can't take the Sanguinor or Astorath even though their fluff says they go to all BA chapters... I'll get Malakim Phoros from the FW book, but that hardly makes up for it, IMO.

Why not just give your lamentors chapter <Blood Angels> so you can take Dante like you did last edition?

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Fifty wrote:
The rules seem fine to me, but I don't llike the new rule that you can only use named characters to be themselves in their parent chapter. I play Lamenters and thereby lose Dante, Corbulo, Lemartes, Tycho and Mephiston. I can live with that, but I can't take the Sanguinor or Astorath even though their fluff says they go to all BA chapters... I'll get Malakim Phoros from the FW book, but that hardly makes up for it, IMO.

Why not just give your lamentors chapter <Blood Angels> so you can take Dante like you did last edition?

Because the rules specifically say that you can't take the special characters in successor chapters. I mean, I could say they are in disguise, but the rules say they are <Lamenters>, not <Blood Angels>.

To be fair, it is a minor niggle as the only one I would use is Corbulo and maybe Lemartes anyway. Plus, I only used my Lamenters in a Badab Campaign where we could only use characters from the Badab books anyway. But it just irks me that they are pushing the big chapters in this way.

 Fifty wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Fifty wrote:
The rules seem fine to me, but I don't llike the new rule that you can only use named characters to be themselves in their parent chapter. I play Lamenters and thereby lose Dante, Corbulo, Lemartes, Tycho and Mephiston. I can live with that, but I can't take the Sanguinor or Astorath even though their fluff says they go to all BA chapters... I'll get Malakim Phoros from the FW book, but that hardly makes up for it, IMO.

Why not just give your lamentors chapter <Blood Angels> so you can take Dante like you did last edition?

Because the rules specifically say that you can't take the special characters in successor chapters. I mean, I could say they are in disguise, but the rules say they are <Lamenters>, not <Blood Angels>.

To be fair, it is a minor niggle as the only one I would use is Corbulo and maybe Lemartes anyway. Plus, I only used my Lamenters in a Badab Campaign where we could only use characters from the Badab books anyway. But it just irks me that they are pushing the big chapters in this way.

those rules are silly given that there are no rules for generic chapter masters.

It gets high marks from me for being playable. The removal of all the junk from the previous system is a big positive. I considered 7th edition to be nearly a waste of time at one point.

That said, it's incredibly bland. The basic rules leave much to be desired from a war game, and it doesn't even try to shroud the fact it's just a huge, if fun, dice fest. They did a great job flattening out the power curve and with the individual units in the indexes, but there's no depth to the rules or play beyond them.

It's a shame their maelstrom of war rules are so clunky still, because the mission rules are where the game can shine. I've also become something of a convert to the new power level points system. It could use a few improvements, but in reality the game is so casual and random in the way it plays I just don't really care to figure out exact points and I don't care about every little mathhammered point cost.

If I was comparing it solely to previous versions of 40k/AoS/WFB etc.. (inside the GW bubble) I'd give it a solid 9/10. Considering my other favorite games like bolt action, x wing, runewars, kings of war, etc... it's more like a 6/10.

@fifty - yeah the rules technically say that silliness. In reality would anyone actually be upset if your <blank> chapter just used the rules for blood angels? I think not! I'd play it just fine even in a tournament, it's just a little blurb from GW marketing anyway, and especially if it's a chapter that lacks special characters or unique rules I can't imagine a problem. Trying to use a force painted as ultramarines as blood angels might be legitimately confusing to the other player for example, but I think you're good to go.

 Fifty wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Fifty wrote:
The rules seem fine to me, but I don't llike the new rule that you can only use named characters to be themselves in their parent chapter. I play Lamenters and thereby lose Dante, Corbulo, Lemartes, Tycho and Mephiston. I can live with that, but I can't take the Sanguinor or Astorath even though their fluff says they go to all BA chapters... I'll get Malakim Phoros from the FW book, but that hardly makes up for it, IMO.

Why not just give your lamentors chapter <Blood Angels> so you can take Dante like you did last edition?

Because the rules specifically say that you can't take the special characters in successor chapters. I mean, I could say they are in disguise, but the rules say they are <Lamenters>, not <Blood Angels>.

To be fair, it is a minor niggle as the only one I would use is Corbulo and maybe Lemartes anyway. Plus, I only used my Lamenters in a Badab Campaign where we could only use characters from the Badab books anyway. But it just irks me that they are pushing the big chapters in this way.

But no rule forces your Lamentors to use the <chapter> Lamentors, so like before when you used the Blood Angels codex nothing is stopping you now from using <chapter> Blood Angels.

"No they aren't Lamentors, they are just Blood Angels who have been punched in the fluff gut"

I'm really disapointed by some units, like the land speeders now so expensive (and no, they aren't more resilient now, I just used to keep them far away from my opponent, shooting krak missiles and heavy bolter rounds at tanks'flanks, and they survived most battles).

I'm looking forward new mechanics once the codex drops, too many things are just "put 1 mortal wound" .

But overall I'm pretty happy.

I find the random shots and random damage irritating. I wish they'd just decided on set values for each.

I don't get the cover and terrain rules. No terrain interacts with base movement?? Only being in terrain gives a cover save? You can't use screens anymore? No penalties for shooting through units?

I like most of the core rule changes except for vehicles (but I'll get use to it). It plays smoother and quicker.

I am pretty happy with what they did to my Tyranids. Much more playable. Should win some games with them now.

Annoyed they took away my looted wagons. "Use every model in your collection" my a**. My son and I have 6 looted wagons in our Ork force (yeah, we like to kit bash). For Father's Day today, he gave me a Hydra to loot. (Obviously gotten before yesterday when we saw the new rules). I hope there are rules for them when they drop the codex.

Awsome rules, more balance than before, cool narrative missions

As a space wolves player im annoyed that Wulfen dont give movement bonuses, and murderfang is so bad this edition. And my Terminators still feels overpriced and squishy with mortal and multi wounds flying around everywhere.

Regarding Tau, i think that its stupid Shadowsun can castle up and give her entire army rerolls for two whole turns, and drones that just flies in an negates a gak ton of damage through saviour protocols. Its insane! Typical GW, shooting is still GW's absolute favorite -.- Pretty bummed about that.

In my opinion:

The good -

I really like the save modifier system, big units that weaken as they take damage, and multiple damage weapons.

The bad -

I really, really hate the fact that anyone can just walk away from combat by falling back. It makes no sense thematically and seems broken from a gameplay perspective. How does it make sense for soldiers to just sit still and watch an enemy squad just walk away? I wish there was a test of some kind, or maybe extra movement for the squad that isn't running away, or mabye the squad that runs away suffers mortal wounds. something.

Yes, I know the squad that falls back can't charge or shoot (unless they actually can), but still, it seems dumb that, say, terminators can walk away from jump pack infantry just because.

The weird -

I'm not in love with the way the changed independent characters to characters, but it's fine. I believe the reason they did it was to reduce the prevalence of 'death stars', but what happens instead is that instead of characters buffing one unit, they have a buff aura, which can buff multiple units. So, if they intended to reduce death stars, I'm not sure they succeeded.

Also, the way the charge phase works can be weird. All movement is voluntary, so you can assault move to avoid enemy characters, and move in such a way that you can pile into additional units, that you can't fight, but they can fight you? There's some odd stuff you can do.

The dumb -

Custodes. Custodes are 100% dumb and broken. Nearly the same price as a terminator, but an extra wound, toughness, strength, 3+ invlun (for 5 points!), and basically a slightly weaker power fist that hits on 2s. The difference between str 5 and str 8 isn't much of a gulf anymore, especially when they get 4 attacks (with banner) and hit on 2s. A group of them will take a knight to pieces with little difficulty. I'd like to know who play tested them and thought they were in any way balanced.

My favorite improvement is losing templates. Way too much of a pain in the arse for a game like this.

I like dropping armor for vehicles. There will undoubtedly be tweaking of the rules as everyone adjusts, but the most important thing is that dreadnoughts finally can match their fluff, better than any edition dating back to 2nd.

Overall, the game seems like it will be more fun than it has been in a while. I'm also optimistic that a wider variety of models will be able to come off the shelves and actually see the table.

I haven't got a game in yet, but I've gone through the rules. I like the option of points an power levels, eventhough I plan on sticking with points. Power levels are a good idea to bring more players into the fold. The dice rolls seem much faster too with set numbers for rolls (for the most part), and the assault units seem to have a better chance in a fight. This works out well for me since I decided to expand my SWA GSC for 40k games, although with the barebones faction rules I think I ended up a bit late to the party.

There are some head scratchers though, mostly in regards to some of the wargear prices. I have some Acolytes that I am holding off on modeling incase a FAQ comes out within the week to change the cost of either Rock Saws or Rock Cutters (same stat line but Cutters can do more total wounds, and they are actually cheaper as well). I've only focused on GSC, but I bet other armies have similar inconsistencies.

Still cautiously optimistic about the new rules. I don't hate the Morale rules as much as I suspected I would, and melee combat is noticeably less fatal than I thought it would be (so far). I like the new weapon profiles (save mods, multi-damage) and cover modifying armor saves. I have noticed several situations where the ideal gameplay decision is also the fluffy one, and that makes me happy.

The faction keyword system means I could take an "Imperial" army, so I did for my intro game. (Only one so far, as I work at the FLGS, and was working yesterday.) My opponent played Tau, which I also own. Every time his units did something cool, we both celebrated.

Sisters of Battle are looking pretty good. I like their Acts of Faith better than the last version, and they seem to have a lot of potential. Also, Exorcists are as tough as a Leman Russ now!
AdMech is also pretty good, though I'm sad my robots and infiltrators got nerfed a bit. Tech Priest Dominus is still a nigh-unkillable horror, and traumatized the Crisis Commander quite gratifyingly.
Guard infantry are cheaper and some of their weapon options are really good now. I have a lot of missile and grenade launchers, and they both rock in this edition. Leman Russ tanks are VERY durable and relatively unchanged points-wise.
Space Marines have a lot of potential (even without Primaris taken into account), but I didn't have enough of them to really get a feel for them. Looking forward to Dreadnoughts not sucking again.
Tau are interesting. My friend used 48 fire warriors and 20 kroot, which would have been a near-certain loss last edition. Both impressed me, as did his Crisis suits. Stealth suits with their targeting matrix thingy are awesome.

 ProfViolence wrote:
I like most of the core rule changes except for vehicles (but I'll get use to it). It plays smoother and quicker.

I am pretty happy with what they did to my Tyranids. Much more playable. Should win some games with them now.

Annoyed they took away my looted wagons. "Use every model in your collection" my a**. My son and I have 6 looted wagons in our Ork force (yeah, we like to kit bash). For Father's Day today, he gave me a Hydra to loot. (Obviously gotten before yesterday when we saw the new rules). I hope there are rules for them when they drop the codex.

To be fair we didn't really get Looted Wagons last edition either, shoe horned White Dwarf rules don't count The way I'm choosing to look at it is like I gained 8 ard' case battle wagons

 Otto Weston wrote:
Disappointed; My entire IG army style/ theme was dragged outside, shot in the back of the head, burned with petroleum and dumped in an unmarked grave.

My entire idea was a Fortress Defence Force, a regiment specializing in anchoring a line/ holding a fortified area for as long as humanly possible.

To that end, I used Veterans as troops and gave them ALL camo cloaks and carapace armour (even in 7th, I know it wasn't points effective at all but it was my theme). 8th Edition fethed them over by removing Carapace and Camo Cloak options and salting the wounds by making them Elites instead of Troops.

7th Ed: 10x Veterans with Carapace Armour, Krak Grenades and Camo Cloaks = 95 pts (85 w/o the Krak)

8th Ed: 10x Scions with Carapace Armour, Krak Grenades and Hot Shot Lasgun = 100 pts.
(Use your Veterans as Scions, should only be a problem on tournaments unless you'r gaminggroup is full of asshats.)



Yes you might loose out on the camo cloaks, but in return you get a decent weapon. Hardly what I'd called getting dragged outside, shot in the head, burned and dumped in a unmarked grave.

I like 95% of all the changes to the game. There are some smaller things, like why didn't they make cover a -1 to hit instead of +1 to save for example, and others... But there is one major thing that I personally don't like and that is the rule about who is going first!

In 7th, if I knew I was second (bar a seize ofc) I could more or less counter deploy my opponent and get out of his fields of fire. Now in 8th, the player with the lesser amount of drops still has the advantage of placing units in the best possible spot facing their preferred targets and still get to shot with them first. Combine this with, in my opinion, much better possibilities of a decent alpha strike and the advantage becomes even greater.

I am aware that this view is tainted given my first two games with my new SM-army, the first against Tyranids and the second against Tau, but in both those matches, the game was over before I even had had my first turn. In the first game, there were so many first turn charges by big monsters that I could never really make a comeback and in the second Tau suits dropped down and took out all my long range fire power in one round of shooting. I know, one has to become better at countering deepstrikers with bubblewrappers now in 8th and there has to be a change in how terrain is built and set up on tables now that cover is more or less useless, but I still think that the You-go-I-go-deployment combined with an auto first turn is way too strong. I heard from Reecius during one of their live battles at Frontline gaming that they considered making it a +1 to go first for LVO in stead of just getting first turn.

So, that is what I am NOT liking about 8th

Got about 2 games under my belt.

I'm more looking forward to Codices because I want more customization back, but I'll be patient in the meantime. We did get awesome stuff in the Marine and CSM FW books, so my dual Carcharodons and Minotaurs force will keep me content in terms of fiddling with a list.

My complaints.

I had to sell my Demons - Losing access to a BRB psychic tree means my Space Wolves and Deathwatch can't summon them anymore.
Initiative is gone - What seperates the fast close combat units from the slow ones? Apparently the ability to take priority in activation regardless of charge priority, although slow dudes can take that right back on their commander's orders..."Because Stone Cold said so"?
Drop Pods can no longer carry Dreadnaughts - Because they don't wear harnesses and safety comes first in an Imperium that sacrifices people in every concievable way.
Psychic Powers - No longer random ipowers s nice but being limited down to a grand total of four powers sucks.
Deathwatch - Are still of no use to a Space Wolves army and still suck by their lonesome.
List building is a pain in the ass - can't wait until I finish making my list folders.
Flyers - Still suck.

Positives.

A lot of undercosted units have been pulled back in line.
Reserves is really part of the game now, giving up the ability to put more units in reserves in order to have total control over them was a real step forward in my humble.
Getting cover as a bonus to the armour save is neat, having different grades of cover would be nice.
Nids can use lists other than Flyrant Spam.
Guard are terrifying to more Codexes than just Space Wolves and Nids.
Troops work.

I'm enjoying it immensely. The rules are solid and enjoyable. Some odd things here and there but the game runs smoothly and feels like 40k still, which I like. I like the assault phase, and like the fact that my army can be melee oriented and still work well. Assault feels visceral and I enjoy it immensely.

I'm having to completely re-plan my army from the ground up, which isn't a bad thing I'll note, but it's certainly making me think about my painting queue and how I planned on building my list.

At present I've got the following for my Blood Angels:

-Jump Pack Captain w/ Relic Blade & Hanf Flamer
-Jump Pack Librarian w/ Force Stave & Bolt Pistol
-ChaplaLemartes (one of the winners in the special character department)
-Librarian Dread w/Heavy Flamer
-Mephiston (Partially Painted, another winner)
-Dante (Waiting to be painted)

-5 Man Tactical Squad, Heavy Flamer, Combiflamer, Lightning Claw
-5 Man Scout Squad, all Pistols & CCW's

-6 man Death Company w/ Jump Packs, one Power Fist & one Power Sword mixed in with Bolt Pistols & CCW's
-Company Champion w/ Jump Pack
-Sanguinary Novitiate (Apothecary) with Jump Pack
-3 man Company Veteran squad (formerly a command squad) w/ storm shields on all and one with a power fist.

-1 Drop Pod transport, and a second drop pod waiting to be assembled
-2 Rhino Transports. (In transit to me, arriving soon I hope)

I have also, to celebrate 8th edition, added a storm raven to the queue, to help with getting my assault units to the target more effectively. I'll be working on this model in earnest soon I hope later this week.

After that it's more tactical marines, death company, assault marines, and sanguinary guard + a sanguinary guard ancient.

Lots to do, lots to do.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Agusto wrote:
I heard from Reecius during one of their live battles at Frontline gaming that they considered making it a +1 to go first for LVO in stead of just getting first turn.

Both methods are close to the same, statistically. I go, you go has a lot of tactics to it. Placing last is certainly an advantage, just as moving last can be worth a vp. I do think placing models off board as a drop can be abused. They should count as drops, but only after on board models have been placed.

xmbk wrote:

Agusto wrote:
I heard from Reecius during one of their live battles at Frontline gaming that they considered making it a +1 to go first for LVO in stead of just getting first turn.

Both methods are close to the same, statistically. I go, you go has a lot of tactics to it. Placing last is certainly an advantage, just as moving last can be worth a vp. I do think placing models off board as a drop can be abused. They should count as drops, but only after on board models have been placed.

Current method, you have an 83% chance to go first (5/6).
Roll-off between two players, giving +1 on the roll to one, rerolling ties, it's 68% (21/31) chance to go first with the bonus, so slightly better than 1 in 3. I actually think it's pretty fair.

One of the worst things in this edition is how the last person to place an objective marker is the one that chooses his/her deployment side. It's a very significant advantage, and I can't understand why they chose to do it that way.

CthulhuDawg wrote:

 ProfViolence wrote:


Annoyed they took away my looted wagons. "Use every model in your collection" my a**. My son and I have 6 looted wagons in our Ork force (yeah, we like to kit bash). For Father's Day today, he gave me a Hydra to loot. (Obviously gotten before yesterday when we saw the new rules). I hope there are rules for them when they drop the codex.

To be fair we didn't really get Looted Wagons last edition either, shoe horned White Dwarf rules don't count The way I'm choosing to look at it is like I gained 8 ard' case battle wagons

I don't understand - why can't you take those models? Open play lets you take anything you want. Bring the looted basilisk.

 MinscS2 wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Disappointed; My entire IG army style/ theme was dragged outside, shot in the back of the head, burned with petroleum and dumped in an unmarked grave.

My entire idea was a Fortress Defence Force, a regiment specializing in anchoring a line/ holding a fortified area for as long as humanly possible.

To that end, I used Veterans as troops and gave them ALL camo cloaks and carapace armour (even in 7th, I know it wasn't points effective at all but it was my theme). 8th Edition fethed them over by removing Carapace and Camo Cloak options and salting the wounds by making them Elites instead of Troops.

7th Ed: 10x Veterans with Carapace Armour, Krak Grenades and Camo Cloaks = 95 pts (85 w/o the Krak)

8th Ed: 10x Scions with Carapace Armour, Krak Grenades and Hot Shot Lasgun = 100 pts.
(Use your Veterans as Scions, should only be a problem on tournaments unless you'r gaminggroup is full of asshats.)



Yes you might loose out on the camo cloaks, but in return you get a decent weapon. Hardly what I'd called getting dragged outside, shot in the head, burned and dumped in a unmarked grave.

Especially when what he's describing (unless I remember "Doctrines" wrong) was actually illegal in 7th too. Couldn't you only pick EITHER Grenadiers OR Forward Sentries OR demolitions?

Also, HWTs got better, all artillery tanks got better, fortifications got tougher, and Bullgryns are now one of the most immovable objects in the game sitting on a defense line. a defensive guard army is 100% better than before.

I like most things.

I do think the removal of firing arcs/line of sight from weapons when shooting with vehicles is dumb, and I don't like the "re-roll and modifers" situation. Atleast the latter was cleared up in the FAQ, but the former is still looking like a missed rule in my eyes.

Regarding my new army, Tau, I find it a bit silly that they are still only BS4+. They have among the most advanced aiming systems and targeting computers in the known galaxy, but they still need a markerlight to hit things properly. I would rather they made some of the shooting a bit weaker (which they kinda did), so you don't have to pay markerlight tax so you can actually hit your targets properly.

I haven't played any Tau games yet though, and not much 8th in general, so I can't speak from experience. Just my first impressions

Overall, I am satisfied with the new rules and mechanics of 8th edition. There are a few things that need to be improved (like the selection of psychic powers,) but mostly it's a good update.

In terms of how this affects my playstyle with CSMs: it's a drastic change, but mostly for the positive. I was playing Black Legion and felt the game was really decided based on how far my units scattered on deep strike. Still playing a Black Legion army, but the tactics are entirely different. Oddly, it doesn't feel like I really lost anything from what Traitor Legions gave us, with the changes to the rules on deep strike. It feels like they were improved.

Pros:

- I like playing power levels. It's great being able to take the units you want instead of worrying about points for every weapons upgrade.

- Lascannons causing multiple wounds. Gives me a reason to bring Predators again and it's hard to one-shot them.

- No scatter means Khorne Raptors with Icon of Wrath are pretty reliable.

- Now that salvo is gone, Noise Marines with sonic weapons are very shooty (as they were intended.)

- Using Rhinos to tie up a unit, and falling back with that Rhino when the rest of my army is ready to shoot. The new vehicle rules make it possible to carry out some cool tactics.

- Heldrakes can spin up to 360 degrees when moving. They stay on the table longer.

- I love the 14 inch movement on bikers, and a couple core rules mechanics make them easier to use. The rules around how models are removed means I can keep the guys with meltas up front and target vehicles as they move forward. The rules around assaults means I can charge infantry even though they took a few wounds off a tank.

- They play tougher against Eldar. Still a tough army to beat, but there's definitely less to worry about. Wraithknights go down fast when you bring enough lascannons.

- They play tougher against Space Marines. The power imbalance is less noticeable.

- They play tougher against Orks. There's more dakka on the board for handling hordes, and more ways to screw with horde armies. Also, most Ork lists from 7th edition don't work very well under the new rules, it's going to take players some time to catch up.

Cons:

- The extra rerolls on dice when one side has a higher power-level army are almost meaningless. There should be some other mechanic to compensate.

- Close combat rules on flyers don't make sense. Don't like the idea Heldrakes can be charged.

- Obliterators have Fleshmetal guns and they are very random. You now have to take 3 at a time.

- Infernal Regeneration sounds good, but it only restores one wound per turn. On things like Defilers, they are going to be taking shots from things that cause multiple wounds. This is our new Warpflame Gargoyles.

- The Land Raider needs a rule that lets it fall back and still shoot and move. It's too big to bubble wrap and opponents have an easy time getting within an inch of it. The fact it has 6 attacks in close combat doesn't mean much with a 6+ WS.

- Possessed are still Possessed. They cost more than Berzerkers for a 33% chance of an extra attack and a 5+ invulnerable save. Feels like GW missed an opportunity for a serious improvement.

Overall my Adepta Sororitas seem to have gotten a nice boost. After 3 games at 500 and 1000 vs. Orks and Chaos, they've performed well. Essentially, the 8th edition rules seems to have streamlined the main themes of being a mid-ranged shooting army: advancing into range, usually with mechanized support, mowing down the enemy, sustaining a few charges, and repositioning to manage ranged attacks as the game progresses.

Good Stuff:
Lots of ways to structure an army without being burdened by basic Battle Sisters Troops choices, which were never cost effective.
The Holy Trinity of bolter, flamer, and melta is well-rounded, effective, and appropriately priced.
Characters do what they feel like they should: enhance the performance and longevity of the units around them.
Mechanized infantry plays like it feels like it should: a transport delivers the unit, but they have to get out a do the dirty work.
Guard allies are amazing (specifically, Scions)

Meh Stuff:
Lack of single Power Level options make it tough to hit an assigned PL value.
Still no jump pack Canoness.
Inquisition allies are a little limited and inflexible... I haven't found the right way to include them just yet.
Still no clear use for Repentia, Celestians, other esoteric models I don't own.

Bad Stuff:
Still a horribly expensive, tedious, and limiting army to collect.
AoFs don't scale well with larger armies.
Some of the flavor has been lost... special wargear, relics, etc.

My army is illegal. I also find it weird that they made Storm Bolters and Combi-Bolters the same weapon, and gave variable fire settings on plasma for both Loyalists and Chaos.

...I feel like my army is now naughty Loyalists and the Gav Thotpe codex felt more like a Chaos Space Marine army. :(

I like the simplicity, I like the 360 degree firing on vehicles and no facing, just imagine it moved to face that way and no more rear armor made of tissue for instant killing with drop podded meta sternguard.

I love the vehicles like monstrous creatures and that both get weaker with wounds.

loving the simplicity of power levels for pickup games

as for dislikes

I dislike that imperial knights (compared to gorka/morkanaught and wraithknight) and several other things are still very undercosted while others are still grossly overcosted (stompa, nob bikers, broadsides)

I dislike that orks tau and necrons lost all ally possibilities for matched while imperium gets an amazing array of models to slot in.

I dislike that a unit chooses to disengage from combat and just walks away without being struck in the back and losing some wounds. so orks charge space marines, orks kill most of them but 1-2 decide to leave so orks can be shot, at least give my boys a chance to finish em as the turn their backs and run either mortal wounds or 1 more round of combat where only the non fleeing side gets to act would be more realistic. maybe they miss their attacks but more likely they just finish the people leaving or if they have good armor like terminators the attacks might not hit home or be able to go through the armor.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
My complaints.

I had to sell my Demons - Losing access to a BRB psychic tree means my Space Wolves and Deathwatch can't summon them anymore.

In fairness, the fact that loyalists or eldar or orks, or anyone besides chaos, for that matter, ever could summon demons was pretty dumb. I could maaaaaaaaaaaaybe see grey knights doing it, but for tiggy and friends to pull demons out of a hat, better than any csm character could do, was extremely silly.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
My army is illegal. I also find it weird that they made Storm Bolters and Combi-Bolters the same weapon, and gave variable fire settings on plasma for both Loyalists and Chaos.

...I feel like my army is now naughty Loyalists and the Gav Thotpe codex felt more like a Chaos Space Marine army. :(

Your army isn't illegal. It just doesn't do your silly gimmick is all.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

I dislike that imperial knights (compared to gorka/morkanaught and wraithknight) and several other things are still very undercosted while others are still grossly overcosted (stompa, nob bikers, broadsides)

Are wraithknights undercosted? Everyone else seems to be saying that they're so overcosted as to be useless.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

I dislike that a unit chooses to disengage from combat and just walks away without being struck in the back and losing some wounds. so orks charge space marines, orks kill most of them but 1-2 decide to leave so orks can be shot, at least give my boys a chance to finish em as the turn their backs and run either mortal wounds or 1 more round of combat where only the non fleeing side gets to act would be more realistic. maybe they miss their attacks but more likely they just finish the people leaving or if they have good armor like terminators the attacks might not hit home or be able to go through the armor.

Agreed.

I was trying to think what would be reasonable in terms of disengaging.

Maybe something like 'roll a d6 for each model in the disengaging unit and it suffers a Mortal Wound for each 6 rolled'?

 vipoid wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

I dislike that imperial knights (compared to gorka/morkanaught and wraithknight) and several other things are still very undercosted while others are still grossly overcosted (stompa, nob bikers, broadsides)

Are wraithknights undercosted? Everyone else seems to be saying that they're so overcosted as to be useless.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

I dislike that a unit chooses to disengage from combat and just walks away without being struck in the back and losing some wounds. so orks charge space marines, orks kill most of them but 1-2 decide to leave so orks can be shot, at least give my boys a chance to finish em as the turn their backs and run either mortal wounds or 1 more round of combat where only the non fleeing side gets to act would be more realistic. maybe they miss their attacks but more likely they just finish the people leaving or if they have good armor like terminators the attacks might not hit home or be able to go through the armor.

Agreed.

I was trying to think what would be reasonable in terms of disengaging.

Maybe something like 'roll a d6 for each model in the disengaging unit and it suffers a Mortal Wound for each 6 rolled'?

the parentheses gorka/moprkanaught and wraithknight were "compared to" as in things to compare the Imperial Knight to which are in the same power range but cost more for some reason. wraithknights wend from under costed in 7th to overcosted in 8th

fresus wrote:

xmbk wrote:

Agusto wrote:
I heard from Reecius during one of their live battles at Frontline gaming that they considered making it a +1 to go first for LVO in stead of just getting first turn.

Both methods are close to the same, statistically. I go, you go has a lot of tactics to it. Placing last is certainly an advantage, just as moving last can be worth a vp. I do think placing models off board as a drop can be abused. They should count as drops, but only after on board models have been placed.

Current method, you have an 83% chance to go first (5/6).
Roll-off between two players, giving +1 on the roll to one, rerolling ties, it's 68% (21/31) chance to go first with the bonus, so slightly better than 1 in 3. I actually think it's pretty fair.

One of the worst things in this edition is how the last person to place an objective marker is the one that chooses his/her deployment side. It's a very significant advantage, and I can't understand why they chose to do it that way.

My only issue with the +1 is the way deployment works heavily favors MSU armies. So if I can place my chaff, and you place all your important units, then I counter deploy, and have a decent chance at going first (can I re-roll that dice roll with a command point?, if so can my opponent re-roll after I re-roll?) it is a pretty large advantage. I can see the opposite being a problem armies like knights have so few drops they will always go first. I feel like this is a problem with Knight/Super heavy armies, rather than the rules in general. Perhaps a good compromise would be +1 to the roll to go first, then an additional +1 for every 5 drops after the first. So if a knight army had 4 drops it would get +1 against armies with 5-10 Drops, +2 against 11-15 drops, etc

 G00fySmiley wrote:

the parentheses gorka/moprkanaught and wraithknight were "compared to" as in things to compare the Imperial Knight to which are in the same power range but cost more for some reason. wraithknights wend from under costed in 7th to overcosted in 8th

Ah, so it was. Sorry, I misread that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
My army is illegal. I also find it weird that they made Storm Bolters and Combi-Bolters the same weapon, and gave variable fire settings on plasma for both Loyalists and Chaos.

...I feel like my army is now naughty Loyalists and the Gav Thotpe codex felt more like a Chaos Space Marine army. :(

Your army isn't illegal. It just doesn't do your silly gimmick is all.

Can't run 3-man units of Terminators, or solo Obliterators (which are now a "randumb devcent" rather than a jack-of-trades troubleshooter), or Bikes with Pistol&Chainsword (I can do Chainsword or pistol, but swapping for a special is superior now), melee cultists got a hideous price hike and Dirge Casters are gone.

Yep, it's a "silly gimmick" alright. Why wasn't I playing a Loyalist army again?

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Can't run 3-man units of Terminators, or solo Obliterators (which are now a "randumb devcent" rather than a jack-of-trades troubleshooter), or Bikes with Pistol&Chainsword (I can do Chainsword or pistol, but swapping for a special is superior now), melee cultists got a hideous price hike and Dirge Casters are gone.

Obviously a bit of re-organization is in order, but that is hardly unusual for a new edition. Combine your Terminators and Obliterators into larger units (or use the under-strength unit rules, punitive as they may be). Your bikers simply have options, pick which one you want on a game-by-game basis (also, how do they steer?). You can live without Dirge Casters, and Cultists going up in points hardly makes them illegal.

I absolutely love 8th. I'd vowed NEVER AGAIN after 6th hit, but the new gameplay has been fantastic.

My only quibbles are hitting flyers with flamers and the lack of tankshock.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
My army is illegal. I also find it weird that they made Storm Bolters and Combi-Bolters the same weapon, and gave variable fire settings on plasma for both Loyalists and Chaos.

...I feel like my army is now naughty Loyalists and the Gav Thotpe codex felt more like a Chaos Space Marine army. :(

Your army isn't illegal. It just doesn't do your silly gimmick is all.

Can't run 3-man units of Terminators, or solo Obliterators (which are now a "randumb devcent" rather than a jack-of-trades troubleshooter), or Bikes with Pistol&Chainsword (I can do Chainsword or pistol, but swapping for a special is superior now), melee cultists got a hideous price hike and Dirge Casters are gone.

Yep, it's a "silly gimmick" alright. Why wasn't I playing a Loyalist army again?

honestly I think terminators should be base 3 per unit for loyalists and chaos alike... here we have a super elite group of warriors in nearly invulnerable armor... can't be trusted to run in fewer numbers than a tac squad. GW has been on the "one box = one unit" kick, so I am really not super surprised by the csm termies going to 5 per unit.

oblits got hit hard by the nerf bat and it sucks I loved their varying profiles they were the heavy weapons swiss army knife but now just meh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CatPeeler wrote:
I absolutely love 8th. I'd vowed NEVER AGAIN after 6th hit, but the new gameplay has been fantastic.

My only quibbles are hitting flyers with flamers and the lack of tankshock.

play orks! put deffrollas on the battle wagons... it is pretty shocking to your opponent

Overall, I am happy with the game.

My GK army works nicely with a good variety of units to choose from now and be effective.

My Marine army is playable. Though, I always feel I am missing something when I compare my GK vs my vanilla Marines.

My Chaos Demons are fine.

My foot eldar are extremely powerful because I was bored many years ago and bought 50 rangers for my troops.

My Deathguard force isn't valid anymore. As I spent the money to get 27 FW Terminators and Deathguard cannot have terminators. So, I could field them as Chaos Terminators with a lot of rot and Death guard symbols, but they would have to be a different legion.

So, except for my last army.. I am good.

 CatPeeler wrote:
I absolutely love 8th. I'd vowed NEVER AGAIN after 6th hit, but the new gameplay has been fantastic.

My only quibbles are hitting flyers with flamers and the lack of tankshock.

In 40k, flyers only travel ~15 feet off the ground, that's totally in range of a flamethrower.

GW is just playing by WYSIWYG.

Overall - 90% satisfied.

Space Wolves;

I like most of the changes. My Blood Claws are useful, my Heroes feel like actual heroes rather than just "upgraded versions of a stock unit". My Greyhunters extra wargear option is inconvenient to have to go back and remodel them for WYSIWYG (adding chainswords), but fluffwise it's a great change.

I dislike that a good portion of my army is "illegally" modeled now, however I'm hoping that this is noticed when the official "full codex" comes out for them (Thunderwolf Cavalry cannot take double wolf claws anymore, terminator and wolf-guard stormshield hand issues, Lone Wolf Wold Claws, etc, have all lead to a good deal of "legal in 7th, illegal in 8th index). But like I said, I hope that's resolved soon.

Imperial Knights;

I like the changes from Hullpoints to Wounds. From the more than dozen games I've played with them so far, they feel "fair" even in the most casual-story based settings, and especially in matched play. But the cost of that "fairness" saw some significant decreasing in their effectiveness. Overall, my positive note for them, is that I'm happy people are ok playing my full Knight list now (and indeed, happy to play it).

Negatives for the IK, is that they have a substantial increase in RNG to a game already largely decided by RNG. Template weapons moving to RNG shots has reduced the effectiveness by a substantial portion of the wargear and loadout options. (Take Avenger Gatling Cannons or don't bother seems to be the warcry these days.)

Added to that, is a substantial points increase (between a 1.16 and a 1.22 modifier in points increased) to be traded for worse shooting makes it almost impossible to run a 5 Knight Household in a 2000 pt game (unless you do all Melee only Knights with no wargear), which is probably what I consider the biggest loss.

Adding to that just how easy it is to kill the knights with a basic lascannon or heavy weapons team (with how much ap- guns have these days, Knights basically get a 5++ save, and when they fail it, lose 1/4 of their health every lascannon shot).

Still super fun though.

Forgeworld Knights got a better shake of the stick, however, I am saddened that the Castigator lost his "anti-horde" identity and traded it for a generic "anti vehicle anti MC", which is something every knight already does. Sort of lost our best option for anti swarms with that change.

On top of that, Forgeworld Knights substantial points increase makes it even harder to run more than 3 Knights in a 2000 point list.

Ad Mech;

This is where I noticed the biggest change. Ad Mech have been playing very well for me, riding the back of a single unit and loadout; Cawl + Datasmith + 6 Kastallen Robots with triple Phospur.

Ad Mech lost a lot of their flavor identity, and troop effectiveness is substantially down with weapons changes. Vanguard / Rangers took a decent hit, Infiltrators, Ruststalkers, and Cataphrons got hit with a whollap. Lack of transports still really hurts an already weak troop-level option/

Heavy support options and HQ's seem to be playing better than ever, and are strong enough to not only keep the army alive, but to excel.


All in all, my impressions on a scale of 1 being totally unhappy, to 10 being ecstatic.

Space Wolves - 7/10 (illegal models cost it points)

Imperial Knights - 6/10 (Template weapon RNG has restricted viable loadouts, and points increase largely prevents running PURE Knight army, relegating them to a single knight support army.)

Ad Mech - 8/10 (Troopsand their weapon nerfs, and lack of transports, continues to take it's toll, but Heavy Support options are better than ever!)

Rules Overall - 9.5/10 (Love the simplification of rules, makes it easier and faster to play a game. Allows me to take a mixed variety of units rather than just spamming the "best model" in the codex.)

Coming back from 3rd edition. I have mixed feelings. I think the game has massive fundamental flaws in it's rules writing. But, it's better than it's been before, so that's something.

It's not a balanced game competitively yet, but it's closer than I've ever seen GW get.

I think when GT organizers or GW get some faq's and erratta's going it's probably going to be a good game. Till then it's fun, as a casual game where you come to an agreement with your opponent before the game what rules you will and won't be using, and how you will interpret the garbage phrasing of the english language.

 vipoid wrote:

- The character targeting rules seem more than a little off. "The swirling maelstrom of battle can make it difficult to pick out such individuals as targets." Okay, so why is it that you can shoot a terminator captain just in front of a squad of near-identical terminators, but you can't shoot a daemon prince standing behind a single cultist half his size? .

If any character has more than 10 wounds he can be picked out because of his size as per BRB

I'm totally happy with the new edition, it feels like how I always imagined 40k to be. Bloody, so very bloody. In this edition it feels like things actually die, as opposed to 7th edition where some armies had ways of designing their force that would ensure that basically nothing died at all. 8th is a vast improvement in my eyes.

 supreme overlord wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

- The character targeting rules seem more than a little off. "The swirling maelstrom of battle can make it difficult to pick out such individuals as targets." Okay, so why is it that you can shoot a terminator captain just in front of a squad of near-identical terminators, but you can't shoot a daemon prince standing behind a single cultist half his size? .

If any character has more than 10 wounds he can be picked out because of his size as per BRB

The CSM DP has 8 wounds, which is the one I believe Vipoid was talking about.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 supreme overlord wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

- The character targeting rules seem more than a little off. "The swirling maelstrom of battle can make it difficult to pick out such individuals as targets." Okay, so why is it that you can shoot a terminator captain just in front of a squad of near-identical terminators, but you can't shoot a daemon prince standing behind a single cultist half his size? .

If any character has more than 10 wounds he can be picked out because of his size as per BRB

The CSM DP has 8 wounds, which is the one I believe Vipoid was talking about.

Indeed.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
My complaints.

I had to sell my Demons - Losing access to a BRB psychic tree means my Space Wolves and Deathwatch can't summon them anymore.

In fairness, the fact that loyalists or eldar or orks, or anyone besides chaos, for that matter, ever could summon demons was pretty dumb. I could maaaaaaaaaaaaybe see grey knights doing it, but for tiggy and friends to pull demons out of a hat, better than any csm character could do, was extremely silly.

Did I say Space Wolves and Deathwatch? I meant to say Alpha Legion agents who happened to be in those armies.
Besides, with all the free stuff and undercosted units other armies were nabbing risking perils on any double to get extra bodies seems like honest payment. Even from a fluff perspective every army but except the Grey Knights should have the ability to risk their body and soul for Daemonic aid - that's kind of what daemons do, come to think of it Chaos Marines have already sold their souls, Chaos Daemons, Nids and Necrons don't have souls, Tau don't believe in magic.
That kind of leaves Eldar, Loyalists and Orks.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
My army is illegal. I also find it weird that they made Storm Bolters and Combi-Bolters the same weapon, and gave variable fire settings on plasma for both Loyalists and Chaos.

...I feel like my army is now naughty Loyalists and the Gav Thotpe codex felt more like a Chaos Space Marine army. :(

Your army isn't illegal. It just doesn't do your silly gimmick is all.

Can't run 3-man units of Terminators, or solo Obliterators (which are now a "randumb devcent" rather than a jack-of-trades troubleshooter), or Bikes with Pistol&Chainsword (I can do Chainsword or pistol, but swapping for a special is superior now), melee cultists got a hideous price hike and Dirge Casters are gone.

Yep, it's a "silly gimmick" alright. Why wasn't I playing a Loyalist army again?

1. Nobody was running just a single Obliterator or single 3 Man Terminator squad in their army. Plus with the amount of models in the box your army with Obliterators and Terminators is not illegal. You just aren't happy you can't run them the specific way YOU want to run them.
2. No, Obliterators weren't a jack-of-all-trades unit. You used maybe 3 or 4 guns on it out of the 8 or so options, with you getting a max of 3 rounds on any gun. They're fine as is, though Assault 3 wouldn't hurt.
3. Your Bikers have a Bolt Pistol and random melee weapon. Problem solved.

I'm telling you, as a CSM player, you're complaining to complain. That's it.

Only played one game so far, but I like most of it so far. About the only things I don't like are:

1. the reroll "clarification" - sorry, but applying modifiers after the reroll is counter-intuitive nonsense. I may understand how it works, but it is IMO a flat out stupid design decision.

2. Lack of fire arcs on vehicles. Sure, the rules are simple, but frankly this one totally messes with my suspension of disbelief in the game. And don't give me the "well, they could have pivoted multiple times during movement" excuse. It's just wrong IMO.

3. How reserves work in Matched Play. Essentially there is no such a concept as Reserves anymore unless the specific unit says it can be deployed in an alternate manner. Seems wrong to me. They have it in Narrative Play so why they didn't keep those rules in Matched I have no idea, but whatever.

I like the rules, but really, really dislike the force org chart shenanigans you can (still) pull off.

11 Daemon Princes, 100+ Tau gun drones and a few commanders, 150+ Brimstone Horrors ...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. Nobody was running just a single Obliterator or single 3 Man Terminator squad in their army. Plus with the amount of models in the box your army with Obliterators and Terminators is not illegal. You just aren't happy you can't run them the specific way YOU want to run them.

I have just two obliterators and 4 terminators (as 4 plus lord could fit in to a land raider). I don't mind it too much though as I don't care about optimization too much, but I think there are plenty of people that have similar collections.

First impression is that I like AoS more, but the new 40k is fun enough to dig out some old models and have a game every now and then. Don't care too much about the army composition and for the points I try to use the power costs when possible, as I don't want to spend too much time calculating the army lists to concentrate my spare time on the actual gaming (as the off table time goes to the painting).

Nids are gross.

 AaronWilson wrote:
Nids are gross.

Nids are awesome - endless swarms of flesh-craving bugs that can chow down on any other life-form and the hive mind can read from each bug's diet then use the information to create new types of bugs.
What is not to like?

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
My army is illegal. I also find it weird that they made Storm Bolters and Combi-Bolters the same weapon, and gave variable fire settings on plasma for both Loyalists and Chaos.

...I feel like my army is now naughty Loyalists and the Gav Thotpe codex felt more like a Chaos Space Marine army. :(

Your army isn't illegal. It just doesn't do your silly gimmick is all.

Can't run 3-man units of Terminators, or solo Obliterators (which are now a "randumb devcent" rather than a jack-of-trades troubleshooter), or Bikes with Pistol&Chainsword (I can do Chainsword or pistol, but swapping for a special is superior now), melee cultists got a hideous price hike and Dirge Casters are gone.

Yep, it's a "silly gimmick" alright. Why wasn't I playing a Loyalist army again?

terminators are useful for something other then "one shot metlaside" in 8th edition so having to take another 2 in a unit isn't a huuge loss. and being able to run solo oblits I always thought was silly anyway/

that saiod you can't expect an edition change to happen and not to have to make some tweeks to your list,

BrianDavion wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
My army is illegal. I also find it weird that they made Storm Bolters and Combi-Bolters the same weapon, and gave variable fire settings on plasma for both Loyalists and Chaos.

...I feel like my army is now naughty Loyalists and the Gav Thotpe codex felt more like a Chaos Space Marine army. :(

Your army isn't illegal. It just doesn't do your silly gimmick is all.

Can't run 3-man units of Terminators, or solo Obliterators (which are now a "randumb devcent" rather than a jack-of-trades troubleshooter), or Bikes with Pistol&Chainsword (I can do Chainsword or pistol, but swapping for a special is superior now), melee cultists got a hideous price hike and Dirge Casters are gone.

Yep, it's a "silly gimmick" alright. Why wasn't I playing a Loyalist army again?

terminators are useful for something other then "one shot metlaside" in 8th edition so having to take another 2 in a unit isn't a huuge loss. and being able to run solo oblits I always thought was silly anyway/

that saiod you can't expect an edition change to happen and not to have to make some tweeks to your list,

What exactly are you going to use Terminators for in this edition? That Combi-Melta and Power Axe model that was previously 36 points is now...54 points (combi-plasma is cheaper by a few points but is relatively gimpy without the setting that has a 1 in 6 chance of autokilling you). What could be a 112 pt investment is now at minimum a 185 point investment and that's before you swap out the regular combi-bolters, for what ultimately becomes a 270 point investment in 5 models. What exactly are 8e Chaos Terminators useful for again?

I ran combi-plasma because 12" rapidfire is more reliable than 6" melta, and the extra shots would threaten small infantry or bike squads. Since I had been running Word Bearers and a Chaos Warband, they were also Obsec, and could roll 2 dice pick highest for Running, meaning I was able to use them for objective tag in a pinch.

Solo Oblits were an option, and one I've run in the past. "Multiple solo Obliterators & Mutilators", akin to Mutilatorshame, or solo Oblits in support of a Rhino push. I have found a valid use for most every gun profile, even if 6 of the choices could be consolidated as "assault/heavy" pairs (TL Flamer/Heavy Flamer, TL Melta/Multimelta, TL Plasma/Plasma Cannon). Even if it was something like: "Choose an effect to apply to your shots", there would have been purpose to them.

To sum up:

BrianDavion wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

I'm upset that this thing I liked to do before doesn't work anymore.

I thought that thing you liked was dumb.

Well, thanks BrianDavion, I'm sure you really made a guy feel good. Why is it that people like you always want to invalidate other people's experience's with a new edition?

I've been on the losing end of edition changes before, and it sucks. I've watched as several hundred dollars worth of models no longer had a place in the game. It sucks. Telling him that what he enjoyed doing with his models wasn't what you would have done with them makes it suck more.

Its very illogical, and very stupid. Pretty much nothing makes sense anymore. Sure its faster, but there is no need to sacrify almost everything that made sense, or was realistic in 7th ed.

p5freak wrote:
Its very illogical, and very stupid. Pretty much nothing makes sense anymore. Sure its faster, but there is no need to sacrify almost everything that made sense, or was realistic in 7th ed.

Care to elaborate?

 MagicJuggler wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
My army is illegal. I also find it weird that they made Storm Bolters and Combi-Bolters the same weapon, and gave variable fire settings on plasma for both Loyalists and Chaos.

...I feel like my army is now naughty Loyalists and the Gav Thotpe codex felt more like a Chaos Space Marine army. :(

Your army isn't illegal. It just doesn't do your silly gimmick is all.

Can't run 3-man units of Terminators, or solo Obliterators (which are now a "randumb devcent" rather than a jack-of-trades troubleshooter), or Bikes with Pistol&Chainsword (I can do Chainsword or pistol, but swapping for a special is superior now), melee cultists got a hideous price hike and Dirge Casters are gone.

Yep, it's a "silly gimmick" alright. Why wasn't I playing a Loyalist army again?

terminators are useful for something other then "one shot metlaside" in 8th edition so having to take another 2 in a unit isn't a huuge loss. and being able to run solo oblits I always thought was silly anyway/

that saiod you can't expect an edition change to happen and not to have to make some tweeks to your list,

What exactly are you going to use Terminators for in this edition? That Combi-Melta and Power Axe model that was previously 36 points is now...54 points (combi-plasma is cheaper by a few points but is relatively gimpy without the setting that has a 1 in 6 chance of autokilling you). What could be a 112 pt investment is now at minimum a 185 point investment and that's before you swap out the regular combi-bolters, for what ultimately becomes a 270 point investment in 5 models. What exactly are 8e Chaos Terminators useful for again?

I ran combi-plasma because 12" rapidfire is more reliable than 6" melta, and the extra shots would threaten small infantry or bike squads. Since I had been running Word Bearers and a Chaos Warband, they were also Obsec, and could roll 2 dice pick highest for Running, meaning I was able to use them for objective tag in a pinch.

Solo Oblits were an option, and one I've run in the past. "Multiple solo Obliterators & Mutilators", akin to Mutilatorshame, or solo Oblits in support of a Rhino push. I have found a valid use for most every gun profile, even if 6 of the choices could be consolidated as "assault/heavy" pairs (TL Flamer/Heavy Flamer, TL Melta/Multimelta, TL Plasma/Plasma Cannon). Even if it was something like: "Choose an effect to apply to your shots", there would have been purpose to them.

You're going to use them as an assault unit with good fire support, as 4 Combi Weapons and the Autocannon is a good thing now? What kind of silly question, bordering on stupid, was THAT? If you want a suicide unit look elsewhere.

Solo Obliterators and Mutilators wasn't good ever, contrary to JancoranHammer. The new ones only need Assault 3 on their guns, which isn't too hard of an update.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
My army is illegal. I also find it weird that they made Storm Bolters and Combi-Bolters the same weapon, and gave variable fire settings on plasma for both Loyalists and Chaos.

...I feel like my army is now naughty Loyalists and the Gav Thotpe codex felt more like a Chaos Space Marine army. :(

Your army isn't illegal. It just doesn't do your silly gimmick is all.

Can't run 3-man units of Terminators, or solo Obliterators (which are now a "randumb devcent" rather than a jack-of-trades troubleshooter), or Bikes with Pistol&Chainsword (I can do Chainsword or pistol, but swapping for a special is superior now), melee cultists got a hideous price hike and Dirge Casters are gone.

Yep, it's a "silly gimmick" alright. Why wasn't I playing a Loyalist army again?

terminators are useful for something other then "one shot metlaside" in 8th edition so having to take another 2 in a unit isn't a huuge loss. and being able to run solo oblits I always thought was silly anyway/

that saiod you can't expect an edition change to happen and not to have to make some tweeks to your list,

What exactly are you going to use Terminators for in this edition? That Combi-Melta and Power Axe model that was previously 36 points is now...54 points (combi-plasma is cheaper by a few points but is relatively gimpy without the setting that has a 1 in 6 chance of autokilling you). What could be a 112 pt investment is now at minimum a 185 point investment and that's before you swap out the regular combi-bolters, for what ultimately becomes a 270 point investment in 5 models. What exactly are 8e Chaos Terminators useful for again?

I ran combi-plasma because 12" rapidfire is more reliable than 6" melta, and the extra shots would threaten small infantry or bike squads. Since I had been running Word Bearers and a Chaos Warband, they were also Obsec, and could roll 2 dice pick highest for Running, meaning I was able to use them for objective tag in a pinch.

Solo Oblits were an option, and one I've run in the past. "Multiple solo Obliterators & Mutilators", akin to Mutilatorshame, or solo Oblits in support of a Rhino push. I have found a valid use for most every gun profile, even if 6 of the choices could be consolidated as "assault/heavy" pairs (TL Flamer/Heavy Flamer, TL Melta/Multimelta, TL Plasma/Plasma Cannon). Even if it was something like: "Choose an effect to apply to your shots", there would have been purpose to them.

You're going to use them as an assault unit with good fire support, as 4 Combi Weapons and the Autocannon is a good thing now? What kind of silly question, bordering on stupid, was THAT? If you want a suicide unit look elsewhere.

Solo Obliterators and Mutilators wasn't good ever, contrary to JancoranHammer. The new ones only need Assault 3 on their guns, which isn't too hard of an update.

Getting to fire your meltaguns more than once is nice. Is it worth tripling the cost of combi-meltas when DS deployment rules are so restrictive, the defender allocates all casualties, and Terminators don't get any additional attacks in melee, and your opponent can withdraw without penalty, or smite into melee? How dare I have my doubts.

Also, Jancoranhammer? Mr. "Pathfinder Special Weapon Teams" Jancoran? If you're going to disagree with me, disagree with me and not another polemic that gives questionable advice without disclaimers.

 mrhappyface wrote:

p5freak wrote:
Its very illogical, and very stupid. Pretty much nothing makes sense anymore. Sure its faster, but there is no need to sacrify almost everything that made sense, or was realistic in 7th ed.

Care to elaborate?

Sure.

30 Orcs can daisy chain 30 inches across the battlefield, with Ghahzkull 20 inches behind CC, in cover, behind a building, still giving +1 attacks to charge, because he is within 6 inches of the unit.

Any ground infantry can kill armored units with basic melee weapons.

Flamers auto hit flying units.

Any ground infantry can block a land raider, baneblade, etc. from falling back by surrounding it, it cant move through enemy units.

Just one very basic infantry unit, can prevent a land raider, baneblade, etc. from firing its weaponry, if he moves 1 inch next to it. And that one unit can lock up the vehicle in CC, too.

Allocating wounds to units not in CC, or not in LOS. With my daisy chain example above the orc player could choose to remove models 30 inches away from CC.

I know its a game, and its not supposed to be a 100% real simulation, but it should make some sense.

I think I found your problem.

You have a 30" building on your table.

p5freak wrote:

30 Orcs can daisy chain 30 inches across the battlefield, with Ghahzkull 20 inches behind CC, in cover, behind a building, still giving +1 attacks to charge, because he is within 6 inches of the unit.

Yes you could do that but 1. Only Orks within 1" of an enemy or within 3" of a model which is within 1" get to strike so over half over the daisy chain can't strike 2. As soon as they charge the daisy chain will have to move forward taking them out of the 6" aura around Ghahzkull and 3. why exactly are you hiding Ghahzkull back when the cover save does nothing against weapons with no AP and weapons with AP will likely just take him up to his invul save and (this is most important) Ghahzkull wants to be in cc.

Any ground infantry can kill armored units with basic melee weapons.

They can but it is very unlikely in game and fluff wise there are stories of basic infantry climbing into tanks and breaking bits off of them till they failed.

Flamers auto hit flying units.

You have two options 1. Accept that flyers are to damn fast and fly too high to even play on a 40k scale so you ban all flyers or 2. We take GW's word that they are slow moving low altitude skimmers in which case flamers would be able to hit them.

Any ground infantry can block a land raider, baneblade, etc. from falling back by surrounding it, it cant move through enemy units.

This was the same as all editions, why is it only silly now?

Just one very basic infantry unit, can prevent a land raider, baneblade, etc. from firing its weaponry, if he moves 1 inch next to it. And that one unit can lock up the vehicle in CC, too.

Baneblades can still fire their weapons and once again how has the Landraiders position changed since previous editions?

Allocating wounds to units not in CC, or not in LOS. With my daisy chain example above the orc player could choose to remove models 30 inches away from CC.

This is perhaps a good point, although I've met a lot of people who like this rule.

I know its a game, and its not supposed to be a 100% real simulation, but it should make some sense.

It is as real as it can be without sacrificing what makes the game fun and balanced (semi balanced).

 mrhappyface wrote:

Any ground infantry can block a land raider, baneblade, etc. from falling back by surrounding it, it cant move through enemy units.

This was the same as all editions, why is it only silly now?

Well, no. it could tank shock its way out before.

Just one very basic infantry unit, can prevent a land raider, baneblade, etc. from firing its weaponry, if he moves 1 inch next to it. And that one unit can lock up the vehicle in CC, too.

Baneblades can still fire their weapons and once again how has the Landraiders position changed since previous editions?

How do they do that. If you have an enemy model within 1" of you, you don't get to fire. If you're surrounded, you can't fall back, because you can't move through their models, so you're stuck in combat, and not shooting.

 Redbeard wrote:

Well, no. it could tank shock its way out before.

Tank shock can't be attempted while in combat.

How do they do that. If you have an enemy model within 1" of you, you don't get to fire. If you're surrounded, you can't fall back, because you can't move through their models, so you're stuck in combat, and not shooting.

The Baneblades datasheet gives it the rule "Steel Behemoth which allows it to fire it's weapons while in combat.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Redbeard wrote:

Well, no. it could tank shock its way out before.

Tank shock can't be attempted while in combat.

In prior editions, vehicles weren't in combat. That's kind of the point there.

How do they do that. If you have an enemy model within 1" of you, you don't get to fire. If you're surrounded, you can't fall back, because you can't move through their models, so you're stuck in combat, and not shooting.

The Baneblades datasheet gives it the rule "Steel Behemoth which allows it to fire it's weapons while in combat.

Ah, I didn't catch that - I saw it could fire if falling back. Okay, so it's good, but a landraider can't.

 Redbeard wrote:

In prior editions, vehicles weren't in combat. That's kind of the point there.

Sorry my awful wording: Tank shock can't be attempted against units in combat, the units within in base contact with the tank are in combat until it moves away. At least that's how it worked in 7e.

Ah, I didn't catch that - I saw it could fire if falling back. Okay, so it's good, but a landraider can't.

Unfortunetly no, the Landraider can still be stuck. But the question has to be asked: what unit has a large enough model count to surround a Landraider, the manouverability to get into position before the Landraider moves away and can survive the hellstorm of Heavybolter/Lascannon/Flamer that the Raider can throw at it?

 mrhappyface wrote:

They can but it is very unlikely in game and fluff wise there are stories of basic infantry climbing into tanks and breaking bits off of them till they failed.

Not unlikely. A dreadnought can easily be taken out by 20 orc boyz in two rounds. Same applies to any T7 vehicle.

 mrhappyface wrote:

This was the same as all editions, why is it only silly now?

Ok, then its silly because they didnt change it.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Baneblades can still fire their weapons and once again how has the Landraiders position changed since previous editions?

My fault with the Baneblade. But how is a guardsman preventing a land raider from firing all its weapons ? Is he just pulling the battery out, which powers the weapons ? So pathetic. Again stupid that GW didnt change that.

 mrhappyface wrote:

It is as real as it can be without sacrificing what makes the game fun and balanced (semi balanced).

No, its not. Allocating wounds to models in CC, or within LOS, wouldnt be a problem, and it would be more realistic.

Reply by: Redbeard - click to view full reply 

465

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/20 18:24:22

Post by: Redbeard

 mrhappyface wrote:

Unfortunetly no, the Landraider can still be stuck. But the question has to be asked: what unit has a large enough model count to surround a Landraider, the manouverability to get into position before the Landraider moves away and can survive the hellstorm of Heavybolter/Lascannon/Flamer that the Raider can throw at it?

Why does it have to be one unit? If I have, say, a rhino, charge first, blocking off one side, while absorbing the overwatch, and then a unit of cultists run in to surround it...

Reply by: Funzeez - click to view full reply 

109464

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/20 18:29:49

Post by: Funzeez

If your landraider is getting surrounded by cultist its either extremely out of position or its already GG.

Reply by: mrhappyface - click to view full reply 

95738

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/20 18:32:56

Post by: mrhappyface

 Redbeard wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Unfortunetly no, the Landraider can still be stuck. But the question has to be asked: what unit has a large enough model count to surround a Landraider, the manouverability to get into position before the Landraider moves away and can survive the hellstorm of Heavybolter/Lascannon/Flamer that the Raider can throw at it?

Why does it have to be one unit? If I have, say, a rhino, charge first, blocking off one side, while absorbing the overwatch, and then a unit of cultists run in to surround it...

I doubt that this will become THE way to deal with Landraiders since it requires a lot of things to go right for the attacker and a lot of things to go wrong for the Raider user, i.e. Why were the Rhino and the cultists allowed to get so far up the table? If they were why was the Raider in such a position that it could be charged by both? Why are there no friendly units that could counter charge the cultists + rhino next turn and liberate the raider? I don't really see it as a massive problem as i don't see it happening that often if ever.

Reply by: Martel732 - click to view full reply 

11860

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/20 18:40:20

Post by: Martel732

Good luck surrounding the crusader with cultists lol.

Reply by: mrhappyface - click to view full reply 

95738

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/20 18:53:08

Post by: mrhappyface

p5freak wrote:

Not unlikely. A dreadnought can easily be taken out by 20 orc boyz in two rounds. Same applies to any T7 vehicle.

20 man Ork Boy unit: Power level 10.
Dreadnought: Power level 8.
I don't see the problem here.

EDIT: Also you didn't do the math at all, an Ork boy unit would take 3 rounds to destroy a Dreadnought IF no Ork boys die from the Dread's return attacks.

Ok, then its silly because they didnt change it.

Then 8e isn't silly, 40k is silly. Don't judge the edition on something that has always been there.

My fault with the Baneblade. But how is a guardsman preventing a land raider from firing all its weapons ? Is he just pulling the battery out, which powers the weapons ? So pathetic. Again stupid that GW didnt change that.

I refer to my previous answer.

No, its not. Allocating wounds to models in CC, or within LOS, wouldnt be a problem, and it would be more realistic.

This edition is tending to give cc dedicated units a break since they have been crapped on for a while now, so they say (much like previous editions) you can't fire into combat and now units can pick whatever model they want to die which prevents BS like Tau firing lines from killing just enough models in overwatch to prevent charges. So yes, it does sacrifice a bit of realism for the sake of balance.

Reply by: Slayer-Fan123 - click to view full reply 

90435

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/20 19:56:08

Post by: Slayer-Fan123

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
My army is illegal. I also find it weird that they made Storm Bolters and Combi-Bolters the same weapon, and gave variable fire settings on plasma for both Loyalists and Chaos.

...I feel like my army is now naughty Loyalists and the Gav Thotpe codex felt more like a Chaos Space Marine army. :(

Your army isn't illegal. It just doesn't do your silly gimmick is all.

Can't run 3-man units of Terminators, or solo Obliterators (which are now a "randumb devcent" rather than a jack-of-trades troubleshooter), or Bikes with Pistol&Chainsword (I can do Chainsword or pistol, but swapping for a special is superior now), melee cultists got a hideous price hike and Dirge Casters are gone.

Yep, it's a "silly gimmick" alright. Why wasn't I playing a Loyalist army again?

terminators are useful for something other then "one shot metlaside" in 8th edition so having to take another 2 in a unit isn't a huuge loss. and being able to run solo oblits I always thought was silly anyway/

that saiod you can't expect an edition change to happen and not to have to make some tweeks to your list,

What exactly are you going to use Terminators for in this edition? That Combi-Melta and Power Axe model that was previously 36 points is now...54 points (combi-plasma is cheaper by a few points but is relatively gimpy without the setting that has a 1 in 6 chance of autokilling you). What could be a 112 pt investment is now at minimum a 185 point investment and that's before you swap out the regular combi-bolters, for what ultimately becomes a 270 point investment in 5 models. What exactly are 8e Chaos Terminators useful for again?

I ran combi-plasma because 12" rapidfire is more reliable than 6" melta, and the extra shots would threaten small infantry or bike squads. Since I had been running Word Bearers and a Chaos Warband, they were also Obsec, and could roll 2 dice pick highest for Running, meaning I was able to use them for objective tag in a pinch.

Solo Oblits were an option, and one I've run in the past. "Multiple solo Obliterators & Mutilators", akin to Mutilatorshame, or solo Oblits in support of a Rhino push. I have found a valid use for most every gun profile, even if 6 of the choices could be consolidated as "assault/heavy" pairs (TL Flamer/Heavy Flamer, TL Melta/Multimelta, TL Plasma/Plasma Cannon). Even if it was something like: "Choose an effect to apply to your shots", there would have been purpose to them.

You're going to use them as an assault unit with good fire support, as 4 Combi Weapons and the Autocannon is a good thing now? What kind of silly question, bordering on stupid, was THAT? If you want a suicide unit look elsewhere.

Solo Obliterators and Mutilators wasn't good ever, contrary to JancoranHammer. The new ones only need Assault 3 on their guns, which isn't too hard of an update.

Getting to fire your meltaguns more than once is nice. Is it worth tripling the cost of combi-meltas when DS deployment rules are so restrictive, the defender allocates all casualties, and Terminators don't get any additional attacks in melee, and your opponent can withdraw without penalty, or smite into melee? How dare I have my doubts.

Also, Jancoranhammer? Mr. "Pathfinder Special Weapon Teams" Jancoran? If you're going to disagree with me, disagree with me and not another polemic that gives questionable advice without disclaimers.

1. Deep Strike isn't restrictive. Be 9" away and you get a perfect landing and can potentially make a charge. Seems like a good tradeoff to me to last edition. Pros and Cons and such.
2. Seeing as it's a Terminator getting infinite use of a Melta Gun with their Bolters, yeah that's worth the increase in cost. Same with Plasma. Won't comment on Combi-Flamer as I tried that only once and with terrible results 2 editions ago.
3. They have Power Weapons and really don't need additional attacks in melee?
4. You don't withdraw from combat with no penalty unless you're specific types of units. Not being able to do Jack gak is kinda a penalty?
5. Smite is alright, I'll give you that.

Reply by: MagicJuggler - click to view full reply 

27890

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/20 20:59:26

Post by: MagicJuggler

What I have found is, a 9" zone is actually far less generous than it looks, especially when enemies spread out in formation. A throwaway unit can effectively push you 27"+ away from DSing near a target you might actually want to threaten: 9" away from backfield unit, plus another 9" between backfield unit and frontal unit, plus another 9" away from the screening unit, plus base sizes. Even if this is an exaggeration of theoryhammer, this means an opponent that deploys his units 18" apart creates dead-zone between them...that's the sort of opening DS was able to exploit.

Reply by: ProfViolence - click to view full reply 

108715

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/20 22:51:11

Post by: ProfViolence

 CthulhuDawg wrote:

 ProfViolence wrote:
I like most of the core rule changes except for vehicles (but I'll get use to it). It plays smoother and quicker.

I am pretty happy with what they did to my Tyranids. Much more playable. Should win some games with them now.

Annoyed they took away my looted wagons. "Use every model in your collection" my a**. My son and I have 6 looted wagons in our Ork force (yeah, we like to kit bash). For Father's Day today, he gave me a Hydra to loot. (Obviously gotten before yesterday when we saw the new rules). I hope there are rules for them when they drop the codex.

To be fair we didn't really get Looted Wagons last edition either, shoe horned White Dwarf rules don't count The way I'm choosing to look at it is like I gained 8 ard' case battle wagons

Fair enough. No one I played against had a problem with the WD rules though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Redbeard wrote:

CthulhuDawg wrote:

 ProfViolence wrote:


Annoyed they took away my looted wagons. "Use every model in your collection" my a**. My son and I have 6 looted wagons in our Ork force (yeah, we like to kit bash). For Father's Day today, he gave me a Hydra to loot. (Obviously gotten before yesterday when we saw the new rules). I hope there are rules for them when they drop the codex.

To be fair we didn't really get Looted Wagons last edition either, shoe horned White Dwarf rules don't count The way I'm choosing to look at it is like I gained 8 ard' case battle wagons

I don't understand - why can't you take those models? Open play lets you take anything you want. Bring the looted basilisk.

No stats for boom gunz in the list. And a looted wagon without a boom gun is just a 'counts as' Trukk, really.

I'm sure we will figure out how to creatively field them, either under the RAW or with 'gentlemen's agreements.'

BTW, Redbeard, is that Squiqqoth in your avatar knitted or crocheted? If it is the later, I think I found my wife's next project.

Reply by: Redbeard - click to view full reply 

465

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/21 01:20:24

Post by: Redbeard

Why do you need stats for a boomgun - it's a basilisk, pay the points for a basilisk, take a basilisk, use basilisk stats. That's the essence of open play, isn't it?

And, it's crocheted, my wife made it for me

Reply by: usmcmidn - click to view full reply 

50331

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/21 02:07:08

Post by: usmcmidn

So you can charge out of transports in the same turn but can Models charge out of fliers too? Example, Terminators in a Stormraven disembark and charge same turn?

Reply by: Don Savik - click to view full reply 

54021

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/21 02:53:57

Post by: Don Savik

To sum up:

BrianDavion wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

I'm upset that this thing I liked to do before doesn't work anymore.

I thought that thing you liked was dumb.

See I can't really get behind this statement. There was a guy who had 25 drop pods and 25 dreadnoughts to go in them (im not joking) and now he can't play his list. First of all, what the hell kind of 6000 point games is he playing? I can't feel sorry for people who buy models that way and expect them to still be 100% unchanged as editions go forward. As far as 3 terminator squads go, its a lot less severe then 25 drop pod dreads, but again, don't they come in packs of 5?

"but its how I liked to play!" People LOVED taudar and biker deathstars. People loved casting invisibility on their night lords Demon Princes. People loved Tzeentch spam. Where exactly do we draw the line? Certain play styles were bound to change, and I just don't see the point in playing the blame game.

Reply by: p5freak - click to view full reply 

111146

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/21 04:57:51

Post by: p5freak

 mrhappyface wrote:

20 man Ork Boy unit: Power level 10.
Dreadnought: Power level 8.
I don't see the problem here.

20 Orc boyz are Power level 9.

 mrhappyface wrote:

EDIT: Also you didn't do the math at all, an Ork boy unit would take 3 rounds to destroy a Dreadnought IF no Ork boys die from the Dread's return attacks.

I did the math, your math is wrong. 20 Orc boyz have 4 attacks each, thats 80 attacks, hitting on 3+, thats 53 hits, wounding on 5+, thats 18 wounds, Dreadnought has 3+ save, so it suffers 6 wounds. In the next round its dead. With a bit of luck its gone in one round. Thats excluding two Boss Nobs with Power klaws. One Power klaw is S10, AP-3 and D3 wounds. Power level remains 9 with the Boss nobs and Power Klaws. With 2 Nobs and 18 Orc boyz the Dreadnought is killed in one round.

Reply by: mrhappyface - click to view full reply 

95738

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/21 06:27:53

Post by: mrhappyface

p5freak wrote:


20 Orc boyz are Power level 9.

My mistake.

I did the math, your math is wrong. 20 Orc boyz have 4 attacks each, thats 80 attacks, hitting on 3+, thats 53 hits, wounding on 5+, thats 18 wounds, Dreadnought has 3+ save, so it suffers 6 wounds. In the next round its dead. With a bit of luck its gone in one round. Thats excluding two Boss Nobs with Power klaws. One Power klaw is S10, AP-3 and D3 wounds. Power level remains 9 with the Boss nobs and Power Klaws. With 2 Nobs and 18 Orc boyz the Dreadnought is killed in one round.

How do they get 4 attacks? It's two attacks base +1 for choppers. Are you giving them a boss pole?

Also, even if they do destroy the dread in 1 - 2 rounds the points are balanced (with the PK Nobs the Ork unit is more points) so what's the problem with the dread dying to the boys?

Reply by: p5freak - click to view full reply 

111146

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/21 09:18:05

Post by: p5freak

 mrhappyface wrote:

How do they get 4 attacks? It's two attacks base +1 for choppers. Are you giving them a boss pole?

No. Ability of Boyz : Green Tide, if there are at least 20 models in this unit, add +1 attack.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Also, even if they do destroy the dread in 1 - 2 rounds the points are balanced (with the PK Nobs the Ork unit is more points) so what's the problem with the dread dying to the boys?

The Power Level remains the same, still 9, with two Nobs, with PKs. Do the math how many rounds the Dreadnought would need to kill 20 Boyz. It cant do it in one round. The problem is thats the Dread is an armored unit, and Boyz can kill it with basic melee weapons. In 7th ed. they couldnt even scratch the paint of it.

Now do the math against a Tactical squad of 10 Space Marines. 80 attacks, 53 hits, 26 wounds, 8-9 Marines die. Only 1-2 Space marines remain. Thats a loss of 80-90%. Can a Tactical squad kill 80-90% of 20 Orc boyz in one round ? No, they cant.

Points are balanced ? No way.

Reply by: Intruder - click to view full reply 

113186

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/21 11:34:25

Post by: Intruder

p5freak wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

How do they get 4 attacks? It's two attacks base +1 for choppers. Are you giving them a boss pole?

No. Ability of Boyz : Green Tide, if there are at least 20 models in this unit, add +1 attack.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Also, even if they do destroy the dread in 1 - 2 rounds the points are balanced (with the PK Nobs the Ork unit is more points) so what's the problem with the dread dying to the boys?

The Power Level remains the same, still 9, with two Nobs, with PKs. Do the math how many rounds the Dreadnought would need to kill 20 Boyz. It cant do it in one round. The problem is thats the Dread is an armored unit, and Boyz can kill it with basic melee weapons. In 7th ed. they couldnt even scratch the paint of it.

Now do the math against a Tactical squad of 10 Space Marines. 80 attacks, 53 hits, 26 wounds, 8-9 Marines die. Only 1-2 Space marines remain. Thats a loss of 80-90%. Can a Tactical squad kill 80-90% of 20 Orc boyz in one round ? No, they cant.

Points are balanced ? No way.

As per usual with mathhammer, this doesn't hold in in real games. 20 boys reaching a 10 man tactical squad or dread unmaimed? Do they teleport now? The dreadnought not killing orks left and right with it's flamer overwatch and claws?

Not to mention ork boys are literally made for close combat. Who knew that meant they would better in close combat than tactical marines, the Jack-of-all-trades? Ork boys are vunerable to anti-infantry weapons like all light infantry.

Reply by: p5freak - click to view full reply 

111146

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/21 12:42:19

Post by: p5freak

Intruder wrote:

As per usual with mathhammer, this doesn't hold in in real games. 20 boys reaching a 10 man tactical squad or dread unmaimed? Do they teleport now? The dreadnought not killing orks left and right with it's flamer overwatch and claws?

Yes, they do teleport now. A Psyker can teleport them anywhere on the battlefield, at least 9 inches away from any enemy unit. That places them out of range of the Dreadnoughts flamer. When they charge they can re-roll failed charges. Chances are not to bad that they can charge the Dreadnought without getting fried by its Flamer. 1-2 Boyz may die because of Overwatch, which would increase the Dreadnoughts chances of not dying in the same round. Less than 20 Boyz dont get the additional attack from Green Tide.

Reply by: mrhappyface - click to view full reply 

95738

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/21 14:02:15

Post by: mrhappyface

p5freak wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

How do they get 4 attacks? It's two attacks base +1 for choppers. Are you giving them a boss pole?

No. Ability of Boyz : Green Tide, if there are at least 20 models in this unit, add +1 attack.

So kill one Ork Boy in shooting and the entire unit loses one attack each?

 mrhappyface wrote:

Also, even if they do destroy the dread in 1 - 2 rounds the points are balanced (with the PK Nobs the Ork unit is more points) so what's the problem with the dread dying to the boys?

The Power Level remains the same, still 9, with two Nobs, with PKs. Do the math how many rounds the Dreadnought would need to kill 20 Boyz. It cant do it in one round. The problem is thats the Dread is an armored unit, and Boyz can kill it with basic melee weapons. In 7th ed. they couldnt even scratch the paint of it.

Now do the math against a Tactical squad of 10 Space Marines. 80 attacks, 53 hits, 26 wounds, 8-9 Marines die. Only 1-2 Space marines remain. Thats a loss of 80-90%. Can a Tactical squad kill 80-90% of 20 Orc boyz in one round ? No, they cant.

Points are balanced ? No way.

Balanced? Yes way!

Dreadnoughts can no longer be used to tarpit Ork boy units, balanced.
Chopper Orks, a dedicated cc unit, kill a 10 man tactical squad in cc, balanced.

You fail to realise that this is what they are supposed to do: dominate things in cc. Orks are also very squishy, T4 1W Sv6+, any dedicated infantry killer is going to chew through Orks, i.e. Havoc squad with 4xFlamers kills 6 Ork boys in the shooting phase and another 6 in cc, (but that's so short ranged!) what about Havocs with 4xHeavy Bolters? They kill 6 Ork boys per shooting phase (so two rounds of shooting with good placement) and another 1 in overwatch.

Ork Boys are not OP because they are really good at what they are supposed to do, they'd be OP if they were also really tough, had good saves and could fire good ranged weapons with BS3+.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

p5freak wrote:

Intruder wrote:

As per usual with mathhammer, this doesn't hold in in real games. 20 boys reaching a 10 man tactical squad or dread unmaimed? Do they teleport now? The dreadnought not killing orks left and right with it's flamer overwatch and claws?

Yes, they do teleport now. A Psyker can teleport them anywhere on the battlefield, at least 9 inches away from any enemy unit. That places them out of range of the Dreadnoughts flamer. When they charge they can re-roll failed charges. Chances are not to bad that they can charge the Dreadnought without getting fried by its Flamer. 1-2 Boyz may die because of Overwatch, which would increase the Dreadnoughts chances of not dying in the same round. Less than 20 Boyz dont get the additional attack from Green Tide.

It is still a 9" charge and a smart opponent will set up so that you can only charge chaff units so that when it comes around to their turn they can fall back and vaporise your Boy unit.

Reply by: p5freak - click to view full reply 

111146

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/21 14:33:11

Post by: p5freak

 mrhappyface wrote:

You fail to realise that this is what they are supposed to do: dominate things in cc.

Agreed. They are deadly in CC, against other infantry. Im ok with that. But its so wrong that they (or any other infantry unit in the game) can kill armored units, without AP weapons.

 mrhappyface wrote:

It is still a 9" charge and a smart opponent will set up so that you can only charge chaff units so that when it comes around to their turn they can fall back and vaporise your Boy unit.

Yes, it is a 9" charge. Usually, chances are not good. But, depending on what i rolled for the charge, i can re-roll both dice with Ere we go, or i can re-roll one dice with a command point. I doubt anyone can set up so that none of multiple Orc boyz units can charge.

Reply by: Breng77 - click to view full reply 

52309

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/21 14:54:23

Post by: Breng77

p5freak wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

20 man Ork Boy unit: Power level 10.
Dreadnought: Power level 8.
I don't see the problem here.

20 Orc boyz are Power level 9.

 mrhappyface wrote:

EDIT: Also you didn't do the math at all, an Ork boy unit would take 3 rounds to destroy a Dreadnought IF no Ork boys die from the Dread's return attacks.

I did the math, your math is wrong. 20 Orc boyz have 4 attacks each, thats 80 attacks, hitting on 3+, thats 53 hits, wounding on 5+, thats 18 wounds, Dreadnought has 3+ save, so it suffers 6 wounds. In the next round its dead. With a bit of luck its gone in one round. Thats excluding two Boss Nobs with Power klaws. One Power klaw is S10, AP-3 and D3 wounds. Power level remains 9 with the Boss nobs and Power Klaws. With 2 Nobs and 18 Orc boyz the Dreadnought is killed in one round.

Where are you getting 2 Boss Nobs with Power Klaws and the bonus for 20 models. You only get 1 Nob per squad.

As for this idea. Dread is power 7 vs Power 9 boyz. Further if we look to actual points. A stock dread is 133 points, 20 boyz with a Power klaw nob is 145, which does not include the price you pay to teleport them. Dread is not a close combat unit (at least not a standard one). chances are not horrible that at least 1 boy dies in overwatch so no extra attack.

So when those 18 boyz do 4 wounds, the Nob likely does 2 more so that is 6 wounds. Dread kills 2 more orks. Assuming he goes first the next round (and nothing bails him out), he kills another 2. then he dies. But this is a close combat unit of more points, against a generalist/shooty unit. It also assumes a charge that is about a 50-50 shot. But why did you let your dread get charged so easily?

If we look at an Ironclad dread if he doesn't get hit with a 9" charge, but instead an 8" charge, he kills 4-5 boyz with flamer overwatch, then they attack (say 4 died so 15 remain) do ~2 wounds, the Nob does another 2, Dread kills 3. Next round Dread kills another 2 (rounding down this time). Now we have 9 boyz, so 18 attacks, which with the nob probably do 3 more wounds. Then it is the next turn, and the dread likely dies. This is much closer. If the dread charges in this situation I think it actually wins. 4 boyz die to overwatch, 2 more to assault launchers, and 3 more to attacks. So that is 9 dead. Orks do 3 wounds (total), then might lose some models to morale (LD 11, 9 losses mean a 3+ loses models so lets say 1, if they are strung out to be near a larger squad they get fewer attacks), The 10 orks go on their turn, doing another 3 wounds, the dread does 2 more wounds. Now only 8 orks remain. Then the dread dies next turn after killing 3 more orks. So The dread takes down 15 orks.

Things to note, this assumes all boyz will always swing, they might not. This assumes that the dread doesn't fall back to allow for a second overwatch etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

p5freak wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

You fail to realise that this is what they are supposed to do: dominate things in cc.

Agreed. They are deadly in CC, against other infantry. Im ok with that. But its so wrong that they (or any other infantry unit in the game) can kill armored units, without AP weapons.

 mrhappyface wrote:

It is still a 9" charge and a smart opponent will set up so that you can only charge chaff units so that when it comes around to their turn they can fall back and vaporise your Boy unit.

Yes, it is a 9" charge. Usually, chances are not good. But, depending on what i rolled for the charge, i can re-roll both dice with Ere we go, or i can re-roll one dice with a command point. I doubt anyone can set up so that none of multiple Orc boyz units can charge.

Only one Ork Boy unit will get to teleport, there may be other units that can get close, but they won't be boyz.

Also why should Tanks be immune to non-ap weapons when nothing else is? You are essentially arguing that it is a problem that it takes something 160 attacks to kill something else, vs 2 lascannons.

Reply by: MagicJuggler - click to view full reply 

27890

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/21 14:57:30

Post by: MagicJuggler

 Don Savik wrote:
To sum up:

BrianDavion wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

I'm upset that this thing I liked to do before doesn't work anymore.

I thought that thing you liked was dumb.

See I can't really get behind this statement. There was a guy who had 25 drop pods and 25 dreadnoughts to go in them (im not joking) and now he can't play his list. First of all, what the hell kind of 6000 point games is he playing? I can't feel sorry for people who buy models that way and expect them to still be 100% unchanged as editions go forward. As far as 3 terminator squads go, its a lot less severe then 25 drop pod dreads, but again, don't they come in packs of 5?

"but its how I liked to play!" People LOVED taudar and biker deathstars. People loved casting invisibility on their night lords Demon Princes. People loved Tzeentch spam. Where exactly do we draw the line? Certain play styles were bound to change, and I just don't see the point in playing the blame game.

Extremity is one thing. If something is a bit too good relative to other options, you gradually tone it down. Eldar Jetbikes are still quite usable this edition, even if the point costs are a bit off (there's no way that a Shuriken Cannon Jetbike is worth only 2 points more than a base one).

The other thing is preserving the "identity" of units, which is a more soft-and-fast metric. While the Riptide got an appreciable point hike, it still fundamentally remains the same unit: a tanky battlesuit that can cut itself for temporary boosts to its power. The Riptide is still iconically a Riptide.

Meanwhile, the Obliterator was a unit whose entire shtick was that it was "the right gun for the right job." You paid a point premium for a model (or few), trading point efficiency (in 5e, autolas preds were better AT, ane autohavocs were generally better for 6e/7e) for versatility. In exchange, they're now a "discount Devcent", losing most the abilities that recognizably made them Obliterators in the first place. "But you can deep strike them" or "but you can fire while advancing with them" doesn't exactly do them justice either for if the same "how to use them" is the same as using a Land Speeder...something went wrong with the design.

I like to call it the "Han Solo in an X-Wing" phenomenon. Even if you have some good ideas otherwise, some changes are so wrong-headed in their conception that they ruin the whole thing.

Reply by: mrhappyface - click to view full reply 

95738

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/21 17:57:56

Post by: mrhappyface

p5freak wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

You fail to realise that this is what they are supposed to do: dominate things in cc.

Agreed. They are deadly in CC, against other infantry. Im ok with that. But its so wrong that they (or any other infantry unit in the game) can kill armored units, without AP weapons.

Gameplay reason for this: means people can't take high toughness vehicles and dominate armies that lack good high strength weapons.
Fluff reason: GW at one time said that most units on the battlefield that are "killed" are in fact just put out of action or have retreated after sustaining heavy damage, this was their explanation as to why SM die in droves on the TT, so if you think of it as the Ork boyz have simply damaged hydrolics in it's legs and have broken connections to it's weapons causing the Dread to retreat.

 mrhappyface wrote:

It is still a 9" charge and a smart opponent will set up so that you can only charge chaff units so that when it comes around to their turn they can fall back and vaporise your Boy unit.

Yes, it is a 9" charge. Usually, chances are not good. But, depending on what i rolled for the charge, i can re-roll both dice with Ere we go, or i can re-roll one dice with a command point. I doubt anyone can set up so that none of multiple Orc boyz units can charge.

I wasn't suggesting you can set up to stop charges all together but it is quiet easy to set up so that important units are shielded from charges, this lets the chaff unit (if it's still alive) fall back next turn letting the more expensive units fire on the Boys/Counter charge them.

Reply by: MagicJuggler - click to view full reply 

27890

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/21 18:03:40

Post by: MagicJuggler

Ran into this story:

Vanguard Veterans assault a Venom. The Vanguard lose a few of their dudes of models to Overwatch, then proceed to kill the Venom and everything else nearby. Then the remaining Veterans disappear next turn to a fluffed Battleshock roll, to the relief of a very confused Wych. Presumably they figured they did their job and wandered off to the pub.

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/21 18:04:08

Post by: Melissia

But happyface, that would take tactics, planning, and intelligent thought! We can't have THAT!

Reply by: mrhappyface - click to view full reply 

95738

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/21 18:06:39

Post by: mrhappyface

 Melissia wrote:
But happyface, that would take tactics, planning, and intelligent thought! We can't have THAT!

Damnit! You're right! GW can't make money off of tactical players! We need players to play bad, cry about how bad their units are and buy a new 40k army!

Reply by: MagicJuggler - click to view full reply 

27890

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/21 18:26:11

Post by: MagicJuggler

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
But happyface, that would take tactics, planning, and intelligent thought! We can't have THAT!

Damnit! You're right! GW can't make money off of tactical players! We need players to play bad, cry about how bad their units are and buy a new 40k army!

There's also the feeling that winning in a way that goes against "common sense" makes the victory that much cheaper. Be it "flamethrowers as anti-aircraft", an opponent's plasma blowing up more often at night-time, or the "most models wins" + "defender removes all casualties" system allowing for "2 Guardsmen > 1 Tank = I win." Or there's the hilarious case of one guy who played a game of 8th, and his Vanquisher was charged turn 1 by a Valkyrie. Be cause his tank was already in the corner, he couldn't withdraw, so the rest of the game was spent with the Russ and Valkyrie playing Battlebots. (Presumably the Valkyrie was rapidly opening and closing its doors, and the Russ was trying to whack it with its turret). Locking the Russ out of the fight was a good play, especially since the player was able to follow up with some Melta command squads, but the event was a basic violation of common sense.

Not to get simulationist (let's not go "gb2 Advanced Squad Leader" or "gb2 Starfleet Battles" or other drivel), but when it's theoretically possible for a Valkyrie with infinite game turns to crash into an infinite number of Bastions without dying...

Reply by: Melissia - click to view full reply 

29408

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/21 18:31:47

Post by: Melissia

It's also always been possible for an infinite number of space marines to fail to kill with their boltguns and chainswords a single scared guardsman. That's simply the nature of the dice.

Reply by: mrhappyface - click to view full reply 

95738

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/21 18:47:08

Post by: mrhappyface

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Or there's the hilarious case of one guy who played a game of 8th, and his Vanquisher was charged turn 1 by a Valkyrie. Be cause his tank was already in the corner, he couldn't withdraw, so the rest of the game was spent with the Russ and Valkyrie playing Battlebots. (Presumably the Valkyrie was rapidly opening and closing its doors, and the Russ was trying to whack it with its turret). Locking the Russ out of the fight was a good play, especially since the player was able to follow up with some Melta command squads, but the event was a basic violation of common sense.

To be more serious for a second (or at least I'll try to be ), I'm afraid that Guard player was cheating: the Valkyrie cannot charge a unit without the fly keyword and it's minimum movement prevents it from staying in combat. Still, destroying a Leman Russ by agressively slapping the Comissar sticking out the top of the turret with the Valkyrie's loading ramp would be an ammusing sight.

Reply by: silashand - click to view full reply 

26738

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/21 19:25:38

Post by: silashand

xmbk wrote:
I'm also optimistic that a wider variety of models will be able to come off the shelves and actually see the table.

Having seen some of the ideas people are coming up with for "competitive" lists (100+ brimstone horrors for one) I think we are destined to see about the same amount of spam garbage as we always have, just different types. JMO though...

Reply by: MagicJuggler - click to view full reply 

27890

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/21 19:50:52

Post by: MagicJuggler

 mrhappyface wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Or there's the hilarious case of one guy who played a game of 8th, and his Vanquisher was charged turn 1 by a Valkyrie. Be cause his tank was already in the corner, he couldn't withdraw, so the rest of the game was spent with the Russ and Valkyrie playing Battlebots. (Presumably the Valkyrie was rapidly opening and closing its doors, and the Russ was trying to whack it with its turret). Locking the Russ out of the fight was a good play, especially since the player was able to follow up with some Melta command squads, but the event was a basic violation of common sense.

To be more serious for a second (or at least I'll try to be ), I'm afraid that Guard player was cheating: the Valkyrie cannot charge a unit without the fly keyword and it's minimum movement prevents it from staying in combat. Still, destroying a Leman Russ by agressively slapping the Comissar sticking out the top of the turret with the Valkyrie's loading ramp would be an ammusing sight.

The Valkyrie has the Hover Jet special rule, which lets it ignore the Airborne (this is the rule that prohibits it from charging non-fly targets), Supersonic and Hard to Hit rules for the turn.

Reply by: mrhappyface - click to view full reply 

95738

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/21 20:04:21

Post by: mrhappyface

 MagicJuggler wrote:
The Valkyrie has the Hover Jet special rule, which lets it ignore the Airborne (this is the rule that prohibits it from charging non-fly targets), Supersonic and Hard to Hit rules for the turn.

So it does, my bad.

Reply by: Farseer_V2 - click to view full reply 

113007

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/21 20:08:23

Post by: Farseer_V2

So far I am enjoying 8th overall. I play in a fairly competitive group so our focus has been on finding optimization where we can, trying skew lists, things like that - so far I've enjoyed most of my games.

On a personal army level I'm still enjoying my Eldar and my opponents seem to have more fun playing against them as well so that's a big plus.

Reply by: p5freak - click to view full reply 

111146

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/22 08:00:08

Post by: p5freak

 mrhappyface wrote:

Also why should Tanks be immune to non-ap weapons when nothing else is?

Because its a tank, its armored. There are AP weapons for this, in the game. AP weapons against armor, non AP weapons against anything else, not armored. Orcs do have AP weapons, dont they ?

Reply by: DaPino - click to view full reply 

84550

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/22 08:36:00

Post by: DaPino

Well, I'm already ready to chuck my Thousand sons at the shelf again and wait for a codex to drop so suffice to say I'm not liking this edition so far.

Psychic phase is a gutted , Rubrics are still not particularly usefull, Scarab occult are laughable now (ML2 psyker turned into a weakened smitecasted, but only 20 points cheaper).

I'll probbably try out some other things first, like having more screening, but at this point I'm really not seeing it.

Reply by: mrhappyface - click to view full reply 

95738

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/22 12:04:31

Post by: mrhappyface

p5freak wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Also why should Tanks be immune to non-ap weapons when nothing else is?

Because its a tank, its armored. There are AP weapons for this, in the game. AP weapons against armor, non AP weapons against anything else, not armored. Orcs do have AP weapons, dont they ?

First of all, I wasn't the one who said this. Second of all, in MY reply to you I explain why Ork boyz can destroy Dreads from both a gameplay and fluff stand point.

Reply by: Slayer le boucher - click to view full reply 

39502

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/22 12:42:28

Post by: Slayer le boucher

 MagicJuggler wrote:


Extremity is one thing. If something is a bit too good relative to other options, you gradually tone it down.

GW never as been good at that, its either buff to the point of broken or Nerfed so hard its laughable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DaPino wrote:
Well, I'm already ready to chuck my Thousand sons at the shelf again and wait for a codex to drop so suffice to say I'm not liking this edition so far.

Psychic phase is a gutted , Rubrics are still not particularly usefull, Scarab occult are laughable now (ML2 psyker turned into a weakened smitecasted, but only 20 points cheaper).

I'll probbably try out some other things first, like having more screening, but at this point I'm really not seeing it.

On the other Hand 7th Psy phase was a ridiculous boring mess.

But yeah the Severe Axe to the Disciplines is kinda harsh.

Honestly i don't miss them much, Blood for the Blood God and all that...

Reply by: daedalus - click to view full reply 

19370

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/22 13:26:32

Post by: daedalus

What they've done to the FOC kinda makes me sad. For what they've turned it into, they might as well have thrown it out and just said that anyone can run anything. Overall however, the edition is leaps and bounds better than 6th or 7th was.

Seriously though, GW, just re-release 5th, charge us $40 for it, and then promise us that you're never going to change the core rules again. I'd continue playing this game forever.

Reply by: drunken0elf - click to view full reply 

98466

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/22 15:35:34

Post by: drunken0elf

I've only played one game of 8th so far. I'm not very competitive like most of the others and just want to throw dice and kill stuff some we've agreed to play PL to simplify things and make it so we can mash lists together quickly since we never how many are going to show up to play.

I'm liking the concept so far. Only thing thats a bummer is that my first game I brought a lot of chimeras and 2 leman russes and realised they are complete garbage and not worth using. I just won't use a lot of them anymore.

But I can't wait to use all the pewter karskins I have as scions next time.

Reply by: koooaei - click to view full reply 

81025

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/22 18:41:36

Post by: koooaei

There are lots of point costs that are off. And There are even less army restrictions than in 7-th. So the op stuff is easilly spammable. And there's a number of op stuff. Like scion comsquads. But i hope gw will fix this issues. If they do, it's gona be a really good game.

Reply by: NorseSig - click to view full reply 

86991

How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/22 18:51:37

Post by: NorseSig

I like most of what 8th has to offer. It is a little bland atm (will hopefully change with proper codicies), but there are a few issues I am finding.

Terminators are actually worse than last edition, and bikes got a buff. That should be flipped imo. Vehicles in general seem to be too expensive imo. The whole vehicles can be locked in combat is silly to me. The vindicator is now trash. There are no generic chapter masters now, meaning space marine armies without a unique character who is a CM do not have access to one unless they borrow one from another army. Guilliman is probably gonna end up in a lot of SM armies regardless if they are Ultramarines or not. I do not understand why the GK were nerfed as well. Ad Mech kinda got the short end of the stick with still no transports, unnecessary nerfs, and per the rules they go second due to no transports. Not liking all the random for the sake of random it makes me question a lot of units and weapons that might otherwise be good if they were more consistent like 3+d3 hits or wounds instead of a d6. I am quite nervous atm as an Iron Hands player. I am thinking more and more that this is the edition that I will have to retire them permanently. Might have to start playing *retch* Ultramarines just so I can play my army as my army.

Despite all the mentioned negatives, as a whole I think 8th gets a big this time around. The thought of not being able to enjoy my army makes me want to start a new one rather than say, "heck with it, burn the minis, I quit." I still might end up burning the minis of my Iron Hands depending on how things codex wise go. Not like I'll get back that 30k+ I spent buying kits/building/painting/converting them, and I would rather destroy them than let someone else have them (selfish and petty I know). Overall still excited for this edition. At least for now. That's saying a lot coming from a pessimist like myself.

Reply by: Arandmoor - click to view full reply 

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How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/22 20:16:10

Post by: Arandmoor

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

The bad -

I really, really hate the fact that anyone can just walk away from combat by falling back. It makes no sense thematically and seems broken from a gameplay perspective. How does it make sense for soldiers to just sit still and watch an enemy squad just walk away? I wish there was a test of some kind, or maybe extra movement for the squad that isn't running away, or mabye the squad that runs away suffers mortal wounds. something.

Yes, I know the squad that falls back can't charge or shoot (unless they actually can), but still, it seems dumb that, say, terminators can walk away from jump pack infantry just because.

I really like the fall back change. IMO hard CC has been absolutely bonkers-level OP since forever.

"Here's a squad you cannot beat in CC. If I get within a foot of anything in your army that's not equally bonkers-OP in-close I'm going to charge and there's nothing you can do about it. I'm going to smash your face in on my turn. Then I'm going to continue to smash your face in on your turn after you get no option to shoot them. Then, in order to win I don't actually have to kill your entire squad. I just have to cause you to fail one roll that you're going to take massive penalties to unless you ignore it like I probably do, and if you fail the roll that comes after that one I kill the rest of the squad anyway. By the way, this particular mechanic (sweeping advance) ignores pretty much any and all anti-CC or 'My army is really, really durable'-type rule you can name just because. Then, if the dice go my way (and I've stacked the deck to make sure it will because I can. It's my army's 'theme'), I'm going to do most of this in your turn, after any point where you could possibly do anything to affect the outcome of this fight (except maybe to feed this nigh-invincible unit more meat). Which means that in my next turn, after you have failed to do anything whatsoever to this unit on your turn, I can move it and assault with it again completely danger-free. And, just to polish this off, most half-decent CC weapons ignored armor. Not, 'had a good AP value'. Just straight up ignored it up until 6th or 7th edition And even then they were still pretty good at just ignoring armor."

Close combat has been OP forever because half the armies in the game are shooting-focused, and shooting has been hands-down inferior to CC in the base rules. There have been lots of scary guns, but to make them even close to CC in terms of power they had to let shooty armies table entire enemy armies by the end of turn 2 since that's how long CC armies typically took to kill entire shooty armies once they spent 3 turns getting into CC against a shooting army that was actively running away from them the entire game.

The targeting rules worked in their favor.
The shooting rules worked in their favor.
The morale rules worked in their favor.
The movement rules worked in their favor.
The armor rules worked in their favor.

Finally there is some parity. Shooting is scary, CC isn't some magical state that completely invalidates shooting until one or the other squad just dies, and moral works for shooting heavy armies as well. I stopped playing WH40k because of hard CC armies. No matter what you did, shooting did almost nothing because all their power was locked into one or two models that did all the heavy lifting, and systems like morale seemed to be specifically designed to let these models largely ignore them themselves while penalizing their opponents.

And They Shall Know No Fear did NOT help matters any. One of the most powerful rules in the game was sweeping advance, and Marines were largely immune to it for multiple editions while, at the same time, being one of the biggest offenders of the deathstar tactic.

No more tabling armies with shooting, and no more deathstars means people like me who like to play armies rather than special characters with buffer wounds get to actually have fun.

They were all good changes.

Reply by: Redbeard - click to view full reply 

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How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/22 20:54:36

Post by: Redbeard

The more I read, the more it seems like they just outright forgot stuff.

Ork warbikes are the only bikes in the game that don't get a turboboost rule?

All the tau suits have JETPACK as a keyword, but I haven't see a single rule that refers to jetpacks.

Units (like daemonettes) that "always strike first" actually don't ever strike first when charged.

Battlecanons average less than two hits per shot - you get more bang from your sponsons than your main gun.

Terrain has been almost comically left out. Nothing slows anyone's movement. No rivers, no rough ground, or swamps, or anything that might possibly leave lines-of-fire while slowing someone down.

Likewise, no ability to screen models, or provide cover for nearly anything. See 5% of a tank? Just as good as seeing all of it. Shooting through two of your other units - meh, bullets won't hit them.

The most comical application of this came from a discussion somewhere else - where the 'best' Leman Russ configuration was claimed to be one with 3 heavy flamers, advancing behind an infantry screen. Because, those infantry sure aren't going to mind a tank shooting promethium through them.

And, more flamer fun - supersonic flyers making strafing runs now fly low enough to the ground for them to be hit by a flamethrower...

I'm failing to understand why people think this is great - I mean, comparing it to 7th, sure, you don't have the extreme abuses of deathstars, but these rules are among the least logical I've ever seen.

I really hoped for better. I heard that GW had turned to outside playtesters, and was expecting that this would help them. But it seems that their rules department is still as inept as ever.

Reply by: stormcraft - click to view full reply 

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How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/22 21:04:32

Post by: stormcraft

Maybe all the playtesters just decided that balance and gameplay are more important than fluff and logic.
You absolutely can make the case to reduce realism to improve gameplay in a complex game like this.

Reply by: Redbeard - click to view full reply 

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How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/22 21:10:09

Post by: Redbeard

You can reduce realism without throwing it out entirely. I mean, I'm not a strict simulationist, but a main battle tank shouldn't be optimally configured to engage its opponent at 15 meters range...

It's a wargame, there should be some grounding in basic military concepts, like screens, and using terrain...

Reply by: daedalus - click to view full reply 

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How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/22 21:12:13

Post by: daedalus

Sure, Redbeard it has issues. I'll agree with you. I'm hoping a lot of the things you mention get fixed when actual codexes come out (or in some errata).

Overall though, the way I see it is that 6th introduced a bunch of problems, and then 7th took that, didn't really fix any of them, and then added a whole bunch on top.

Looking at 8th, I feel like they approached it from a point of view of wanting to fix all of those problems. From that point of view, I think they did a pretty good job. Did they create more issues? Yeah. They did. I won't argue that. Will they fix those too? I dunno, but I really hope so.

Reply by: Redbeard - click to view full reply 

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How are you liking or not liking the new edition? How are you liking or not liking your new army? @ 2017/06/22 21:24:52

Post by: Redbeard

 daedalus wrote:
I'm hoping a lot of the things you mention get fixed when actual codexes come out (or in some errata).

I'm beyond hope. I had hope that 7th would fix the that was 6th, but it made it worse. I had hope that external playtesting would mean that we might see a decent release.

Fool me, like five times now..., won't get fooled again.

Clearly, no one at GW has a clue since Andy Chambers left.