Every single game of 8th edition I have played (except one which was Biovore spam) has been totally dominated by flyers and have been instrumental in destroying me. I don't own any flyers (or want to use them on TTS anyway) and am getting a little sick of it, even when I bring enough ranged dakka, I end up hitting on 5's and missing the vast majority of my shots, and Mork forbid if I have to reposition first. Stormravens, Hemlocks, Storm Tallons, whatever that bloody Tau thing is called, all of it is undercosted and overly effective.

I have personally decided I am going to refuse to play any non-apoc scale games with flyers in them. I want to play Warhammer 40k, not FlyerSpamHammer 41k.

Put a lot more terrain on the table, seriously limits where the airborne armadas can end up

leopard wrote:
Put a lot more terrain on the table, seriously limits where the airborne armadas can end up

Not really?

From what I understand of the game, didn't flyers used to be much harder to kill? Could only ever hit them on 6s and such?

You could only hit them on a 6 unless you had Skyfire (or a few "works just like Skyfire" special rules), however, once you did, they were subject to the usual vehicle all-or-nothing problem. Either your shot harmlessly donks off, or you do serious damage in one go, possibly including instant death.

Flying monstrous creatures worked like current flyers, except that you could only hit on a 6, and they drove folks crazy. (Though assault FMCs were worthless in 7e)

 SneakyTheDragon wrote:
From what I understand of the game, didn't flyers used to be much harder to kill? Could only ever hit them on 6s and such?

Indeed. Everyone says flyers are supergood now, and I'm a bit puzzled by this. Not saying that they're wrong, but I kinda fail to see why this would be. Perhaps someone can explain?

Goodness, on the list of things that annoy me about 8th, flyers aren't even in the top 10. Though, I don't encounter them too often.

I've heard some IG FW flyers are a bit OP, and stormravens can put out some major dakka (but are pricey).

Orks got a bit of the short stick v. flyers, as most everyone went from hitting on 6s to -1 to hit except us. Even so, tankbustas hit on 6s, and reroll v. vehicles, and do 3 damage each. Lootas can do a good job too with 2 damage each.

Can also assault them with stormboyz, which is hilarious.

It's a measly -1 to hit. Are you also going to refuse games from Tau Stealth suits, Raven Guard and Scouts with Camo Cloaks? Prioritize your shots or get more shooting units, or use one of the many other options that make flyers and other hard to hit units easy to hit.

 Crimson wrote:

 SneakyTheDragon wrote:
From what I understand of the game, didn't flyers used to be much harder to kill? Could only ever hit them on 6s and such?

Indeed. Everyone says flyers are supergood now, and I'm a bit puzzled by this. Not saying that they're wrong, but I kinda fail to see why this would be. Perhaps someone can explain?

Well, you couldn't run an all flyer list before.

In 8th, the Air Wing detachment lets you do that.

I think the 5 flier detachment is the big problem. That and Twin Assault Cannon, which is severely underpriced.

What? Hell no.

Flyers are not at all difficult to down. I just played a game yesterday where we each brought a stormraven. They were both dead before turn 2 started. I lost my storm raven before it got to fire 1 shot, a few guys died in the crash.

Flyers are strong for several reasons:

1. They have a long move. In an edition that is seeing a resurgence of guard tanks, or other gunline armies like Rifleman Dreads that don't need to move to deal damage, you need to be able to close the gap quickly, or be shot off the table.

2. Deep strike assault by itself is insanely risky and will probably lose you the game if you don't roll well. Flyers bridge the gap here by providing a credible threat and also dealing damage on your first turn, while simultaneously allowing you to deep strike with some safety.

3. They can't be charged, and they shield your units with their large bases. This is probably the biggest thing i've seen. It's very difficult to maneuver around the base of a flyer. Pairing this with deep strike, you can drop your stuff down and body-block with fliers.

Basically they address the two strongest things in 40k right now: an answer to massed gunline nonsense, and the ability to survive a mass first turn charge in the form of tyranids or other.

 Arandmoor wrote:

Well, you couldn't run an all flyer list before.

In 8th, the Air Wing detachment lets you do that.

Oh right, sure! But that's more of a problem with the force organisation rather than with the flyers themselves. If you have a normal balanced list with one or two flyers, it shouldn't be a problem.

People could run as many fliers as they wanted in 7th. Multiple detatchments were still a thing. You just didn't want to because they weren't as good.

Mainly I think fliers are so powerful now because vehicles got stronger and flier weaponry got more powerful. They are easier to hit, but harder to wound - as they have armor saves and a high toughness - and have more wounds overall. Something like a Stormraven is loaded with a crazy amount of firepower. Furthermore, fliers start on the board - meaning the damage output of a flier automatically is greater compared to 7th ed, where fliers at best came in on turn 2.

I've been fortunate to not play against loads of fliers in my few 8th ed games. Lets wait and see what the Codex's do to tamp down some of the fliers, or to give new tools to deal with them.

Flyers get 360 Line of Sight. They're point intensive, meaning less drops meaning it's easier to go first. You can't Reserve against them and you can't go around them. These are all changes from 7th to 8th that benefit flyers

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Flyers get 360 Line of Sight. They're point intensive, meaning less drops meaning it's easier to go first. You can't Reserve against them and you can't go around them. These are all changes from 7th to 8th that benefit flyers

You hit them easier than 7th but they are MUCH harder to kill because all tanks became harder to kill.

some fliers are better than others though.

on the bright side i did have a game where i kobed like 3 grenades into the intake of a storm raven as it was zipping around, finally blowing it up.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
It's a measly -1 to hit. Are you also going to refuse games from Tau Stealth suits, Raven Guard and Scouts with Camo Cloaks? Prioritize your shots or get more shooting units, or use one of the many other options that make flyers and other hard to hit units easy to hit.

Well, remember, I think he's an ork, or that -1 to hit is still a 6+ to hit for us. That being said, I definitely don't find flyers OP.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
It's a measly -1 to hit.

Orks has a WS of 5+ and have _nothing_ that gets a +1 against flyers. Personally I don't mind playing against flyers, as long as we play maelstrom. But if it's eternal war, I don't want to play against flyers with my ork army. It is just pointless.

I was up against two of the storm...hawks? The guppies with no windshield, with my orks. They both took a couple turns to take out, but that was mostly because I was not shooting a ton at them. And orks are still hitting them on sixes.

With zero anti-air weapons or flyers of my own, they both died by the end of the game. So I'm not all that concerned about flyers myself. I've heard there are abusive strategies with using them to cordon off whole areas by using weird formations, but most of the people I play with just fly them around normally, and they seem fine.

Your dedicated anti-tank should be able to double as anti-flyer. If your local meta is WAAC than maybe you should communicate with your opponent about what kind of game you want to play? It sounds like you don't have what you need to deal with flyers so you should be open with your opponent about that. I don't have what I need in my TAC list to deal with three super-heavies so I don't play against that outside tournaments.

Remember kids, flamers are the best anti-aircraft weapons.

As some others have asked could we get some more detail as to what the actual problem is? I've played about 30 games of 8th in total, but not too many flyers, just some Chaos Dragons or Space Marine gunships, and no one has thought those were particularly hard to kill...

My knee jerk reaction and assumption is, maybe you are not bringing a combined arms list? I'm freely admitting assumption here so please correct me if I am wrong. But 8th is all about balanced variety lists. Take all comers lists and balanced lists should become to the new META pretty quick in most gaming areas (unless spam is becoming your local META).

 McGibs wrote:
Remember kids, flamers are the best anti-aircraft weapons.

...Except that they really aren't? I know this is a meme at this point but it's just wrong. With a couple exceptions like stuff mounted on superheavies, or baleflamers, there's not really a flamer that's going to put more than 1 incidental wound on most flyers. Every anti tank weapon is better, even with -1 to hit.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Your dedicated anti-tank should be able to double as anti-flyer. If your local meta is WAAC than maybe you should communicate with your opponent about what kind of game you want to play? It sounds like you don't have what you need to deal with flyers so you should be open with your opponent about that. I don't have what I need in my TAC list to deal with three super-heavies so I don't play against that outside tournaments.

Orks dedicated antitank is generally big choppas and power-klaws. There's is nothing in the ork index that works well against, say, a stormraven.

I run 3 stormtalons and a stormhawk. They get shot down fairly easily if the opponent just focuses on bringing them down one at a time. These are T6/7 10w with -1 to hit (unless I hover), it's really not hard to destroy. Hell, you get them down to 2 wounds and they are all but neutered.

Yeah. Bear in mind they lose effectiveness pretty quickly when you damage them.

I actually don't find them as annoying, as anti air units are now far more versatile.

My onagers (usually with at least 2 kitted out with the Icarus array) now have far more targets to choose from, as the fly keyword is fairly common. Even ignoring that, hitting on a 4+ isn't nearly as bad as previous snap shots, so they have plenty of usage just clearing infantry and the like.

Let's ban Flyers!

and Let's ban Forgeworld!

Hell, Let's ban all models with 20 PL or higher!

pismakron wrote:


Orks dedicated antitank is generally big choppas and power-klaws. There's is nothing in the ork index that works well against, say, a stormraven.

What about Stormboyz? The Boss Nob could chunk some wounds from a flyer with his Big Choppa or Power Claw, while even at only 5+ to wound, the sheer number of attacks coming from the Boyz would do some damage.
You've also got Deffkoptas. Their Spinnin' Blades aren't bad, and if you take a Killsaw they could pretty reliably pile some wounds on. On top of that, on the off chance they manage to actually hit a flyer, their ranged weapons would do some serious damage.

I've only played 3 games of 8th so far. One of those was going up against 3 Stormravens. After that game, yes, I will be politely declining to play against anyone with several fliers. They are far too effective for their point cost. As to the argument that they are necessary because there is other "broken" stuff, I don't want to have to play one of the skews to be effective. Plus, I'm not seeing a good option in Death Guard for dealing with them...

Flyers are just the flavor of the month right now. They seem to have already fallen off the top of the tournament placings.(although I have only seen three recently) if they continue to be out of the placings in tournaments for the next couple weeks, the flyer spam should die down as the WAAC players will move on to the next broken meta unit combination.

Tylendal wrote:

pismakron wrote:


Orks dedicated antitank is generally big choppas and power-klaws. There's is nothing in the ork index that works well against, say, a stormraven.

What about Stormboyz? The Boss Nob could chunk some wounds from a flyer with his Big Choppa or Power Claw, while even at only 5+ to wound, the sheer number of attacks coming from the Boyz would do some damage.
You've also got Deffkoptas. Their Spinnin' Blades aren't bad, and if you take a Killsaw they could pretty reliably pile some wounds on. On top of that, on the off chance they manage to actually hit a flyer, their ranged weapons would do some serious damage.

Deffkoptas are totally useless against flyers. With a killsaw it is a fragile 80 point model with two base attacks hitting on 4+ with a damage of D2. Stormboyz could in theory work, but you really need to cripple the flyer on the charge, because next turn he will be shooting at you from way out of charge range. So you need at least 60 stormboyz with a bunch of nobz to take out a single stormraven, and that is only if he doesn't shoot at the stormboyz first and if you lose nothing in overwatch.

You can probably put together a dedicated anti-flyer Ork list, but it will work extremely poorly against any list without flyers. Your best bet is probably to buy a load of OP Forgeworld stuff. Like a bunch af killbursta tanks and lifta-droppas. But pay to win us no fun and it is also pretty expensive.

 Marmatag wrote:

3. They can't be charged

That is Airborne units. Flyers can still be charged. It's a strange mechanic, but it's true. I have Skyweavers that are flyers and they get charged all the time.

As far as flyers go, they are not "flyer super great omfg", vehicles in particular have become a viable target for footsloggers now. Lay on the dakka and you're likely to destroy quite a few flyers in short order.

As for the OP, you don't have to play against flyers. However, don't expect to be taken seriously at tournaments or the like if you refuse to play games against flyers. Every army is different, and requires different strategy to be successful. If you're having trouble against flyers, change up your game plan. Practice, practice, practice. Take every loss as a learning experience to get better.

teknoskan wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

3. They can't be charged

That is Airborne units. Flyers can still be charged. It's a strange mechanic, but it's true. I have Skyweavers that are flyers and they get charged all the time.

As far as flyers go, they are not "flyer super great omfg", vehicles in particular have become a viable target for footsloggers now. Lay on the dakka and you're likely to destroy quite a few flyers in short order.

As for the OP, you don't have to play against flyers. However, don't expect to be taken seriously at tournaments or the like if you refuse to play games against flyers. Every army is different, and requires different strategy to be successful. If you're having trouble against flyers, change up your game plan. Practice, practice, practice. Take every loss as a learning experience to get better.

The op was referring to "airborne" flyers with the "hard to hit" rule.

Orks really has only two options when it comes to those fliers. Play maelstrom or concede. Regards

Chaos lord on a Disc of Tzeentch. I'll just Powerfist planes out of the sky.

IronNerd wrote:
I've only played 3 games of 8th so far. One of those was going up against 3 Stormravens. After that game, yes, I will be politely declining to play against anyone with several fliers. They are far too effective for their point cost. As to the argument that they are necessary because there is other "broken" stuff, I don't want to have to play one of the skews to be effective. Plus, I'm not seeing a good option in Death Guard for dealing with them...

You don't think that's even a little bit of a knee jerk reaction after three games with only one against a 3 flyer list? You have Heldrakes, Havocs, Tanks, Soul Grinders, Helbrutes, and Deamon Princes for Death Guard anti-air, not to mention all the other guns everything else is holding can now shoot at the flyers with MEQ hitting on 4s. Chaos is overburdened with options for taking out pretty much anything, you just have to know how to use it. You mentioned Death Guard and may think taking one unit of something with the Death Guard legion stops you from taking something without it, but it does not. You can have your Death Guard units and another Legion of something or other.

Orks have a bit of a problem versus flyers. Our shooting is more heavily suppressed by the -1 to hit than other factions. Normally, 2 5+ to hit shots are equivalent to a 3+ to hit, but 3 6+ to hit are equivalent to one 4+ to hit. In addition to that, we don't have access to many shooting rerolls outside of tankbustas. The dakkajet would be a fine anti-aircraft platform if flyers were limited to T6 or less, but the T7 flyers are too tough for it's primary role.

Weirdboyz are the only real Ork solution outside of the forge world lifta-droppa. The reliable smites that they put out are unusually effective versus the flyer rules that require them to move forward in front of the rest of their army.

Its sad to hear this about flyer. My Elysian drop troops lacks any other ways to bring enough support in order for the squishy guardsmen too survive...

Flyers combine 3 things that are really hard to deal with. High chance to go first + huge move + heavy firepower. This makes it easy for fliers to deal a deathblow to units that can shoot them down. Then if the succeed at that - it's basically game over for the opponent.

40k hasn't changed much - it's all about the alpha strike - building lists that mitigate alpha strike damage is going to be key to make competitive lists. My personal favorite is spamming lascannon dev squads around guilliman and an ancient.

Wipe a Dev unit? heres 2 las cannons back at you that reroll hits and wounds. Throw a cheap apoth in there to keep up the madness if you want also.

For guard players. Check out armored sentinels. 50 points with a las cannon - could easily fit 12 into a list without hurting yourself. They can't alpha strike that. Melta vets in Chimeras should do well too.

teknoskan wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

3. They can't be charged

That is Airborne units. Flyers can still be charged. It's a strange mechanic, but it's true. I have Skyweavers that are flyers and they get charged all the time.

As far as flyers go, they are not "flyer super great omfg", vehicles in particular have become a viable target for footsloggers now. Lay on the dakka and you're likely to destroy quite a few flyers in short order.

As for the OP, you don't have to play against flyers. However, don't expect to be taken seriously at tournaments or the like if you refuse to play games against flyers. Every army is different, and requires different strategy to be successful. If you're having trouble against flyers, change up your game plan. Practice, practice, practice. Take every loss as a learning experience to get better.

I don't play at tournaments.

If you don't like playing against someone's army, don't play against it. That simple. This isn't an issue. If I play a game against an army that is simply not fun to play against (or the person's a dick) - no more games with them. No worries.

I gotta say that I think my Valkyries are underpriced. But that's not due to their firepower which is quite lackluster, it's because of their gravchute rule which is quite frankly ridiculously good. Remember they only hit on 5s while they're supersonic as all their weapons are Heavy. I think some of the Astartes flyers have PotMS negating that, but eg Stormtalons don't.

 Elbows wrote:
If you don't like playing against someone's army, don't play against it. That simple. This isn't an issue. If I play a game against an army that is simply not fun to play against (or the person's a dick) - no more games with them. No worries.

Pretty much this.

I will probably get one or two Flyers just to complete my army. Possibly four, one of each Ork flyer.

Annoyed my Traktors don't +1 to hit against Airborne units. I would be cool with that (not necessarily Fly units, since then I can fire at say Assault Marines and the like).

 Elbows wrote:
If you don't like playing against someone's army, don't play against it. That simple. This isn't an issue. If I play a game against an army that is simply not fun to play against (or the person's a dick) - no more games with them. No worries.

It's not always that simple, nor does it provide an absence of concern.

Stormravens might need a nerf, or some armies need some help against flyers, or both. But the problem is ALSO 1st turn alpha strike. And GK are pretty dependent on those stormravens (maybe less after the codex is released).

Even if you take significant anti-flyer power, "what do you think the flyers are going to target first?" -Reece from Frontline Gaming.

never played with or against flyers anyhow, never really felt the belonged in 40k. Something about air support and such kind of moved the game away from small battles to me.

Git Gud.

Flyers(some flyers) are pretty good but they're not the be all end all. I've played multiple games against fliers and really, once you do 6-7 wounds to one they basically become a non-factor.

Flyer spam is a bit different but not insurmountable either.

pismakron wrote:

Orks dedicated antitank is generally big choppas and power-klaws. There's is nothing in the ork index that works well against, say, a stormraven.

Kustom Mega-kannons work pretty well. You get 5 per Stormraven.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

teknoskan wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

3. They can't be charged

That is Airborne units. Flyers can still be charged. It's a strange mechanic, but it's true. I have Skyweavers that are flyers and they get charged all the time.

As far as flyers go, they are not "flyer super great omfg", vehicles in particular have become a viable target for footsloggers now. Lay on the dakka and you're likely to destroy quite a few flyers in short order.

As for the OP, you don't have to play against flyers. However, don't expect to be taken seriously at tournaments or the like if you refuse to play games against flyers. Every army is different, and requires different strategy to be successful. If you're having trouble against flyers, change up your game plan. Practice, practice, practice. Take every loss as a learning experience to get better.

I don't play at tournaments.

Holy gak, if you don't play at tournaments why do you care what's good or not? It's not like whether or not you win has any real meaning.

The existence of Flyers isn't the problem. The existence of easy alpha-strike tank killers on Flyers (e.g. Dark Talons, Hemlocks), the easy Flyer-spam detachment (resulting in skew lists that are extremely difficult for a TAC list to counter), and overly fast aggro-melee Flyers (e.g. Heldrakes, Daemon Princes) are the problems.

I'm not about to straight-up refuse to play against Flyers, but I will look askance at things like two-Heldrake lists or Flyer-detachment-only lists.

pismakron wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
It's a measly -1 to hit.

Orks has a WS of 5+ and have _nothing_ that gets a +1 against flyers. Personally I don't mind playing against flyers, as long as we play maelstrom. But if it's eternal war, I don't want to play against flyers with my ork army. It is just pointless.

Um...traktor beams don't give a +1 to hit?

But they do cause enemy flyers to automatically crash and burn. Which can be a ton of fun...

 BaconCatBug wrote:

teknoskan wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

3. They can't be charged

That is Airborne units. Flyers can still be charged. It's a strange mechanic, but it's true. I have Skyweavers that are flyers and they get charged all the time.

As far as flyers go, they are not "flyer super great omfg", vehicles in particular have become a viable target for footsloggers now. Lay on the dakka and you're likely to destroy quite a few flyers in short order.

As for the OP, you don't have to play against flyers. However, don't expect to be taken seriously at tournaments or the like if you refuse to play games against flyers. Every army is different, and requires different strategy to be successful. If you're having trouble against flyers, change up your game plan. Practice, practice, practice. Take every loss as a learning experience to get better.

I don't play at tournaments.

That's not the point. You don't have to play against armies with flyers, but this can also work against you if you're the guy that constantly bails because a guy has a flyer. Most players are pretty chill and would likely swap some flyers for other things if you wanted a more "you" friendly game. However, you have to understand that the game is meant to be fun even if you lose. Sure it's depressing if all you play against are flyers and lose, but make it an opportunity to make some friends that will make it fun to play. Not everyone is a fly spammy dill-pickle ready to annihilate you.

 Arandmoor wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
It's a measly -1 to hit.

Orks has a WS of 5+ and have _nothing_ that gets a +1 against flyers. Personally I don't mind playing against flyers, as long as we play maelstrom. But if it's eternal war, I don't want to play against flyers with my ork army. It is just pointless.

Um...traktor beams don't give a +1 to hit?

But they do cause enemy flyers to automatically crash and burn. Which can be a ton of fun...

Only after reducing it to 0 wounds which is almost but not quite the same thing.

That said Mek Gunz are like characters (as in, if they're not the closest unit, they can't be targeted). So they can stick around for at least a turn or two if the Stormravens haven't deleted the rest of the army.

I played a flyer list this weekend and decimated him even with Tau. Granted it wasn't "the" cheesy list but fairly close. I think the guy got stomped pretty easily.

Just up your ranged anti-tank game. Look for the most cost effective thing in your army to bring them down and focus as much firepower on them as possible.

Prioritise the weaker ones (unless you know you can bring down the bigger ones in an alpha strike) this way his firepower lessens over the game faster.

The nids player also won against him through sheer attrition and victory points. I don't know who he got his win against.

When faces with diversity I figure out how to beat it,I don't hide from it.

So no. I've had a couple matches against flyer lists and dark lights and proper positioning dealt with them pretty quick

I wonder how you managed to survive in the previous editions though when flyers were a straight 6 to hit all the time.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
When faces with diversity I figure out how to beat it,I don't hide from it.

So no. I've had a couple matches against flyer lists and dark lights and proper positioning dealt with them pretty quick

I wonder how you managed to survive in the previous editions though when flyers were a straight 6 to hit all the time.

Last time i played 40k flyers didn't exist at 40k scale.

Eh, I'm not intimidated by them.

No.

I'm willing re-build my list if you don't like Forgeworld, but not just because you don't like the models I brought because you're looking for easy wins.

easy solution "non infantry fliers cannot capture objectives"

I mean try and take and hold a hill in a F-15 ain't gonna happen

 3orangewhips wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
If you don't like playing against someone's army, don't play against it. That simple. This isn't an issue. If I play a game against an army that is simply not fun to play against (or the person's a dick) - no more games with them. No worries.

It's not always that simple, nor does it provide an absence of concern.

Stormravens might need a nerf, or some armies need some help against flyers, or both. But the problem is ALSO 1st turn alpha strike. And GK are pretty dependent on those stormravens (maybe less after the codex is released).

Even if you take significant anti-flyer power, "what do you think the flyers are going to target first?" -Reece from Frontline Gaming.

So, this becomes a simple conversation with the person you're playing. "Hey man, that flyer really kills the game for me - can you run a list without it?" or "Hey boss, the last time I played against an army fielding that flyer/those flyers, it was really boring/awful, so I'll pass."

Playing a list of just flyers reminds me of the worst parts of playing battlefield 3. You might win, but it doesn't feel like the kind of game I signed up for.

smite is a good for taking a bit out of a flying unit.

I have a question for those who have charged an airborne unit. If you have a squad of infantry with the fly keyword and you make a charge....do you surround the base or just any place under the flyer hull?

I assume the base. But what if you modeled your jump pack units to have a long rod to set them 12" above the tabletop so that you can touch the hull of the airborne unit?

I only glanced at the rules for them so may have missed something.

 admironheart wrote:
smite is a good for taking a bit out of a flying unit.

I have a question for those who have charged an airborne unit. If you have a squad of infantry with the fly keyword and you make a charge....do you surround the base or just any place under the flyer hull?

I assume the base. But what if you modeled your jump pack units to have a long rod to set them 12" above the tabletop so that you can touch the hull of the airborne unit?

I only glanced at the rules for them so may have missed something.

Bases for everything unless a rule tells you to measure to the model. If you cant fit due to models colliding, invoke WMS.

Use bases. Which means a LOT of models can pack in to assault most fliers.

Real question is what kind of lists is OP fielding - guessing as Orks who, consensus seems, are near the bottom of the power curve currently. Green Tide is one of the very few Ork lists that seems to be reasonably competitive.

 Arandmoor wrote:

Well, you couldn't run an all flyer list before.

In 8th, the Air Wing detachment lets you do that.

Of course you could. Plenty of formations with nothing but flyers.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

pismakron wrote:

Orks dedicated antitank is generally big choppas and power-klaws. There's is nothing in the ork index that works well against, say, a stormraven.

Kustom Mega-kannons work pretty well. You get 5 per Stormraven.

A kustom mega kannon is a 48 point model that will do 1.29 wounds of damage to a stormraven per turn, while doing almost half that amount to itself. It is also a 45€ model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arandmoor wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
It's a measly -1 to hit.

Orks has a WS of 5+ and have _nothing_ that gets a +1 against flyers. Personally I don't mind playing against flyers, as long as we play maelstrom. But if it's eternal war, I don't want to play against flyers with my ork army. It is just pointless.

Um...traktor beams don't give a +1 to hit?

But they do cause enemy flyers to automatically crash and burn. Which can be a ton of fun...

Traktor kannonz does not have a +1 to hit versus flyers. For some reason they were nerfed hard in 8th, maybe because in 7th they were easily the best anti-flyer unit in the game. In 8th they are actually really good against skimmer transports like wave serpents and devil-fishes, but I don't see anyone using traktor kannonz in 8th edition, because they are useless against anything else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frozocrone wrote:


That said Mek Gunz are like characters (as in, if they're not the closest unit, they can't be targeted). So they can stick around for at least a turn or two if the Stormravens haven't deleted the rest of the army.

That is only true of the grot crew. Thankfully, because otherwise Mek gunz would be kind of broken


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

I wonder how you managed to survive in the previous editions though when flyers were a straight 6 to hit all the time.

They still are a straight 6 to hit for Orks, you just need to hit them a lot more to take them down.

Didn't they buff Lootas now in the 8th editon? 2 dmg?

I always killed all flyers with my Lootas in 7th edition atleast...
Was fun and worked really well.

 Elbows wrote:

 3orangewhips wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
If you don't like playing against someone's army, don't play against it. That simple. This isn't an issue. If I play a game against an army that is simply not fun to play against (or the person's a dick) - no more games with them. No worries.

It's not always that simple, nor does it provide an absence of concern.

Stormravens might need a nerf, or some armies need some help against flyers, or both. But the problem is ALSO 1st turn alpha strike. And GK are pretty dependent on those stormravens (maybe less after the codex is released).

Even if you take significant anti-flyer power, "what do you think the flyers are going to target first?" -Reece from Frontline Gaming.

So, this becomes a simple conversation with the person you're playing. "Hey man, that flyer really kills the game for me - can you run a list without it?" or "Hey boss, the last time I played against an army fielding that flyer/those flyers, it was really boring/awful, so I'll pass."

Please don't tell me you actually start conversations with strangers using "Hey boss"

Himmelweiss wrote:
Didn't they buff Lootas now in the 8th editon? 2 dmg?

I always killed all flyers with my Lootas in 7th edition atleast...
Was fun and worked really well.

To kill a single stormraven in a single turn of shooting you need more than 1400 points of lootas. And you know, that are very fragile, being single wound infantry with a 6+ save.

To everyone who thinks that flyers are ''fine''

1-They are hard to hit

2-They can move any directions

3-They can shoot any directions

4-They start on the table

5-You can play 3-5 according to 1 detachement...

6-They carry a gak load of guns

7-They are underpriced

8-So far in the last 4 GT, the top lists had 4-6 stormravens...

9-You can't charge them

10-They are really resistant


For those of you who thinks they are ''not as good as flyers in the v7'', please open your rulebook... They are only easier to hit... Which is a small detail compared to their new mouvement, their toughness, their armor, their balistic skill, their arsenal, their price, the new detachement, their new capacity to attack at 360 degree and so on....

Just look at the past events space marines fans The Eldars' hate is gone now

Does the OP even bring AA weaponry? If not, you can't complain about not dealing with Flyers.

I don't have flyers and I have no problem with flyers because I have invested in AA units.

 Otto Weston wrote:
Does the OP even bring AA weaponry? If not, you can't complain about not dealing with Flyers.

I don't have flyers and I have no problem with flyers because I have invested in AA units.

What AA units would you bring as an Ork player?

alex0911 wrote:
To everyone who thinks that flyers are ''fine''

1-They are hard to hit

2-They can move any directions

3-They can shoot any directions

4-They start on the table

5-You can play 3-5 according to 1 detachement...

6-They carry a gak load of guns

7-They are underpriced

8-So far in the last 4 GT, the top lists had 4-6 stormravens...

9-You can't charge them

10-They are really resistant


For those of you who thinks they are ''not as good as flyers in the v7'', please open your rulebook... They are only easier to hit... Which is a small detail compared to their new mouvement, their toughness, their armor, their balistic skill, their arsenal, their price, the new detachement, their new capacity to attack at 360 degree and so on....

Just look at the past events space marines fans The Eldars' hate is gone now

More or less this. I'm not opposed to flyers, but to say that they were in anyway better last edition because you only hit them on 6s, negates all the gains they made in 8th.

1.) They start on the table, previously they were subject to poor reserve rolls keeping them out of the game at times.
2.) Heavy flyer armies are low unit count, as such they go first and can alpha strike.
3.) 360 degree firing arc is a huge buff, who remembers the Heldrake in 6th when it had that ability, that is what made it super strong. Now all flyers have this.
4.) Most weapons got damage output boosted, especially on the storm raven. In 7th the storm raven had 1 lascannon shot (that re-rolled misses), 3 heavy bolter shots (re-rolling misses), at best 12 hurricane bolter shots (which could rarely hit the same unit), and 4 missiles that were one use only.) In 8th it has 2 lascannon shots, 6 heavy bolter shots, 24 Hurricane bolter shots, and 2 missiles that are no longer 1 use only. (any other configuration has the same results).
5.) They did not have as much of a price increase as many other vehicles (storm raven is up about 60 points/26%, the landraider for example got a 42% bump, the predator 75%).
6.) They are one of only 2 unit types that can take a formation with no required HQ
7.) They can score while flying.

In the end I think a good fix (possibly in addition to some point adjustments for the worst offenders) would be to limit flyers to 1 per detachment, and ban the air wing detachment.

This maxes out flyers at 3 per army (if you use the suggested limit), which is still tough, but at least it forces your opponent to bring something other than flyers to the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Does the OP even bring AA weaponry? If not, you can't complain about not dealing with Flyers.

I don't have flyers and I have no problem with flyers because I have invested in AA units.

Not all armies have AA units. He plays orks what is their AA unit. The only decent one is stormboyz in the assault. Also since the Ravens are almost an auto- go first army, they alpha strike his AA units, and then he is back to square 1.

pismakron wrote:

teknoskan wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

3. They can't be charged

That is Airborne units. Flyers can still be charged. It's a strange mechanic, but it's true. I have Skyweavers that are flyers and they get charged all the time.

As far as flyers go, they are not "flyer super great omfg", vehicles in particular have become a viable target for footsloggers now. Lay on the dakka and you're likely to destroy quite a few flyers in short order.

As for the OP, you don't have to play against flyers. However, don't expect to be taken seriously at tournaments or the like if you refuse to play games against flyers. Every army is different, and requires different strategy to be successful. If you're having trouble against flyers, change up your game plan. Practice, practice, practice. Take every loss as a learning experience to get better.

The op was referring to "airborne" flyers with the "hard to hit" rule.

Orks really has only two options when it comes to those fliers. Play maelstrom or concede. Regards

Orks have several options that can deal with a reasonable amount of flyers. 5 stormravens, yeah that's a skew list, just like any skew list you play to the mission. But I had little trouble downing a pair of stormhawks over the course of a full 2000 point game with a mix of tankbustas, flash gits, a SAG mek, and rokkits from Killa Kanz.

Gretchin based units seem like the most reliable answer because they still get a solid 5+ to hit. I'd go with Kannons as the best option, followed by KMKs or Trakktors. I've been using a load of kannons anyway with my speed freeks, because with 6 of them you can easily crack open a vehicle or two turn 1, or sweep away a good amount of bubblewrap before your assault troops get stuck in. Also Killa Kanz (which should 100% always be armed with rokkits now IMO) are good, solid, reliable TAC anti heavy units. Unit of six with a waaagh banner nob are an excellent crunchy center to any ork horde list.

I don't think there's any good assault answer to them, however. We can't get any all heavy weapon chargers, and the darned things are just too durable to assault with stormboyz.

the_scotsman wrote:


Orks have several options that can deal with a reasonable amount of flyers. 5 stormravens, yeah that's a skew list, just like any skew list you play to the mission. But I had little trouble downing a pair of stormhawks over the course of a full 2000 point game with a mix of tankbustas, flash gits, a SAG mek, and rokkits from Killa Kanz.

Gretchin based units seem like the most reliable answer because they still get a solid 5+ to hit. I'd go with Kannons as the best option, followed by KMKs or Trakktors. I've been using a load of kannons anyway with my speed freeks, because with 6 of them you can easily crack open a vehicle or two turn 1, or sweep away a good amount of bubblewrap before your assault troops get stuck in. Also Killa Kanz (which should 100% always be armed with rokkits now IMO) are good, solid, reliable TAC anti heavy units. Unit of six with a waaagh banner nob are an excellent crunchy center to any ork horde list.

I don't think there's any good assault answer to them, however. We can't get any all heavy weapon chargers, and the darned things are just too durable to assault with stormboyz.

A kannon will do 0.5 wounds of damage on a stormraven per turn of shooting. To counter two stormravens you need an obscene amount of kannonz, no less than twenty. Six kannonz will bring down a stormraven on your fifth turn of shooting, assuming the kannonz are left unharmed for five turns.

All these flyer complaints seem to be about Stormraven spam. Is it certain that flyers in general are OP? Maybe it is just Stormravens? (And punisher Vultures...)

pismakron wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Does the OP even bring AA weaponry? If not, you can't complain about not dealing with Flyers.

I don't have flyers and I have no problem with flyers because I have invested in AA units.

What AA units would you bring as an Ork player?

Firestorm Redoubt.

I will say, though, that any stacking negative modifiers get bad, quick, for orks. For example, unless I'm mistaken, orks cannot shoot at raven guard flyers out of 12". -1 to hit for flyer, -1 to hit for raven guard, need a 7+ to hit. Can't be done.

pismakron wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


Orks have several options that can deal with a reasonable amount of flyers. 5 stormravens, yeah that's a skew list, just like any skew list you play to the mission. But I had little trouble downing a pair of stormhawks over the course of a full 2000 point game with a mix of tankbustas, flash gits, a SAG mek, and rokkits from Killa Kanz.

Gretchin based units seem like the most reliable answer because they still get a solid 5+ to hit. I'd go with Kannons as the best option, followed by KMKs or Trakktors. I've been using a load of kannons anyway with my speed freeks, because with 6 of them you can easily crack open a vehicle or two turn 1, or sweep away a good amount of bubblewrap before your assault troops get stuck in. Also Killa Kanz (which should 100% always be armed with rokkits now IMO) are good, solid, reliable TAC anti heavy units. Unit of six with a waaagh banner nob are an excellent crunchy center to any ork horde list.

I don't think there's any good assault answer to them, however. We can't get any all heavy weapon chargers, and the darned things are just too durable to assault with stormboyz.

A kannon will do 0.5 wounds of damage on a stormraven per turn of shooting. To counter two stormravens you need an obscene amount of kannonz, no less than twenty. Six kannonz will bring down a stormraven on your fifth turn of shooting, assuming the kannonz are left unharmed for five turns.

My six kannons are also 114 points, not my whole army. If I'm playing my speed freek list, I am mobile enough that I probably wouldn't bother fighting two stormravens until I'd killed everything else on the ground, and then it'd be a matter of throwing literally everything I've got left on turn 2-3 at one until it dies. If my opponent is starting turn 1 at what is basically a 532+whatever he's got in the flyers point deficit, you can bet I'm going to fight whatever else he has unless he drives one of those planes right up to my army and lets me have at it. And if he does, I've got enough dakka between my tankbustas, buggies, koptas, and kannons, that my two stormboy squads and 2 deffcoptas can finish it off in melee and auto-kill the occupants (And I would only give up tempo to kill the plane if he had positioned it in such a way that I could surround it and auto-kill the occupants after destroying the plane.) If he doesn't, I've got a solid turn where 700-850 points of my opponent's army is sitting in those two footprints up in the air.

Against my grot based list, I can comfortably shoot 1.5 stormravens down from 24" range, but that's with a lot of grot BS rokkits from my grot tanks and killa kanz.

No, orks don't have the means to deal 14 wounds against a 266 point stormraven for 266 points. If you want to alpha strike anything off the board in one turn, you generally have to apply 2-3 times the point value to do it, unless you've got some real specialized stuff like an all plasma unit vs MEQ or an all melta unit against tanks in melta range. Equal points of Kannonz to Stormravens deals a comfortable 6 wounds from long range, but that's averages on D6 damage. in reality, it's going to be a lot swingier - get a lucky high damage roll or two, and you could easily chunk it down to BS4+ or 5+ in one turn. That's pretty solid considering that they're also a good TAC option against any armor, and a decent one against hordes with the frag shell. (this is probably why the winning tournament list we saw recently on blood of kittens took like 10 kannons).

Meanwhile, that stormraven removes about 40 points worth of ork boyz and 20 points of ork vehicles per turn very reliably. If you can kill it in 4-5 turns, you can do it before it makes its points back.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I will say, though, that any stacking negative modifiers get bad, quick, for orks. For example, unless I'm mistaken, orks cannot shoot at raven guard flyers out of 12". -1 to hit for flyer, -1 to hit for raven guard, need a 7+ to hit. Can't be done.

Chapter Tactics only work for Infantry, Dreadnaughts, and Bikes

So don't worry about that.

Ah, ok, thanks. I wonder if the dark angel darkshroud can affect flyers.

pismakron wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Does the OP even bring AA weaponry? If not, you can't complain about not dealing with Flyers.

I don't have flyers and I have no problem with flyers because I have invested in AA units.

What AA units would you bring as an Ork player?

Everyone's saying what good AA is there for Orks?

Uh, Traktor Kannons..... fething terrifyingly strong AA.

 Otto Weston wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Does the OP even bring AA weaponry? If not, you can't complain about not dealing with Flyers.

I don't have flyers and I have no problem with flyers because I have invested in AA units.

What AA units would you bring as an Ork player?

Everyone's saying what good AA is there for Orks?

Uh, Traktor Kannons..... fething terrifyingly strong AA.

Eh......I disagree. For one thing, they still hit on 5s. For another, they get one shot, as opposed to the KMK's D6 shots. And it has one less AP to boot. Granted, it does D6 damage instead of D3, but I'll take D6 shots at D3 damage with one extra AP over 1 shot at D6 damage any day of the week, even with gets hot, especially if the hit roll is the same. Traktor kannons also cause flyers to automatically explode if destroyed, but I still feel their power output is still not worth it.

I'd prefer smasha guns over traktor kannons too. Same profile, always D6 damage, -4 to saves. A little silly for wounding, granted, but still pretty effective on most flyers, and other targets too.

 Otto Weston wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Does the OP even bring AA weaponry? If not, you can't complain about not dealing with Flyers.

I don't have flyers and I have no problem with flyers because I have invested in AA units.

What AA units would you bring as an Ork player?

Everyone's saying what good AA is there for Orks?

Uh, Traktor Kannons..... fething terrifyingly strong AA.

Kannons are identical for half the points.

KMKs are solidly stronger.

pismakron wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Does the OP even bring AA weaponry? If not, you can't complain about not dealing with Flyers.

I don't have flyers and I have no problem with flyers because I have invested in AA units.

What AA units would you bring as an Ork player?

Aegis Defence Line


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I will say, though, that any stacking negative modifiers get bad, quick, for orks. For example, unless I'm mistaken, orks cannot shoot at raven guard flyers out of 12". -1 to hit for flyer, -1 to hit for raven guard, need a 7+ to hit. Can't be done.

I might be misremembering here but doesn't the corebook say all 1s are failures and all 6s are successes regardless of modifiers?

 Tsol wrote:

I might be misremembering here but doesn't the corebook say all 1s are failures and all 6s are successes regardless of modifiers?

Just 1 is always a failure. 6 isn't always a success.

the_scotsman wrote:

pismakron wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


Orks have several options that can deal with a reasonable amount of flyers. 5 stormravens, yeah that's a skew list, just like any skew list you play to the mission. But I had little trouble downing a pair of stormhawks over the course of a full 2000 point game with a mix of tankbustas, flash gits, a SAG mek, and rokkits from Killa Kanz.

Gretchin based units seem like the most reliable answer because they still get a solid 5+ to hit. I'd go with Kannons as the best option, followed by KMKs or Trakktors. I've been using a load of kannons anyway with my speed freeks, because with 6 of them you can easily crack open a vehicle or two turn 1, or sweep away a good amount of bubblewrap before your assault troops get stuck in. Also Killa Kanz (which should 100% always be armed with rokkits now IMO) are good, solid, reliable TAC anti heavy units. Unit of six with a waaagh banner nob are an excellent crunchy center to any ork horde list.

I don't think there's any good assault answer to them, however. We can't get any all heavy weapon chargers, and the darned things are just too durable to assault with stormboyz.

A kannon will do 0.5 wounds of damage on a stormraven per turn of shooting. To counter two stormravens you need an obscene amount of kannonz, no less than twenty. Six kannonz will bring down a stormraven on your fifth turn of shooting, assuming the kannonz are left unharmed for five turns.

My six kannons are also 114 points, not my whole army. If I'm playing my speed freek list, I am mobile enough that I probably wouldn't bother fighting two stormravens until I'd killed everything else on the ground, and then it'd be a matter of throwing literally everything I've got left on turn 2-3 at one until it dies. If my opponent is starting turn 1 at what is basically a 532+whatever he's got in the flyers point deficit, you can bet I'm going to fight whatever else he has unless he drives one of those planes right up to my army and lets me have at it. And if he does, I've got enough dakka between my tankbustas, buggies, koptas, and kannons, that my two stormboy squads and 2 deffcoptas can finish it off in melee and auto-kill the occupants (And I would only give up tempo to kill the plane if he had positioned it in such a way that I could surround it and auto-kill the occupants after destroying the plane.) If he doesn't, I've got a solid turn where 700-850 points of my opponent's army is sitting in those two footprints up in the air.

Against my grot based list, I can comfortably shoot 1.5 stormravens down from 24" range, but that's with a lot of grot BS rokkits from my grot tanks and killa kanz.

No, orks don't have the means to deal 14 wounds against a 266 point stormraven for 266 points. If you want to alpha strike anything off the board in one turn, you generally have to apply 2-3 times the point value to do it, unless you've got some real specialized stuff like an all plasma unit vs MEQ or an all melta unit against tanks in melta range. Equal points of Kannonz to Stormravens deals a comfortable 6 wounds from long range, but that's averages on D6 damage. in reality, it's going to be a lot swingier - get a lucky high damage roll or two, and you could easily chunk it down to BS4+ or 5+ in one turn. That's pretty solid considering that they're also a good TAC option against any armor, and a decent one against hordes with the frag shell. (this is probably why the winning tournament list we saw recently on blood of kittens took like 10 kannons).

Meanwhile, that stormraven removes about 40 points worth of ork boyz and 20 points of ork vehicles per turn very reliably. If you can kill it in 4-5 turns, you can do it before it makes its points back.

Your six kannonz are 162 points, and no one is talking about alphastriking. In order to kill two stormravens on your first turn you need almost sixty kannonz, not twenty. That is 1600 points of kannon.

As for ignoring his stormravens, that only really works when playing Maelstrom. With Maelstrom missions I think Orks can deal with flyers, and I really have no objection to them.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Otto Weston wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Does the OP even bring AA weaponry? If not, you can't complain about not dealing with Flyers.

I don't have flyers and I have no problem with flyers because I have invested in AA units.

What AA units would you bring as an Ork player?

Everyone's saying what good AA is there for Orks?

Uh, Traktor Kannons..... fething terrifyingly strong AA.

They were strong in seventh edition. Now they are garbage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tsol wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Does the OP even bring AA weaponry? If not, you can't complain about not dealing with Flyers.

I don't have flyers and I have no problem with flyers because I have invested in AA units.

What AA units would you bring as an Ork player?

Aegis Defence Line

That may in fact be just what Orks need. Especially with a grot crew. I will need to do some number crunching on this, but thank you for the suggestion.

sorry, in my quick calculation I forgot that you don't just take 2 grot krew and add a Kannon, you need to add a generic "Big Gun" for 8 points as well.

regardless, I don't think you're going to find what you're looking for. If your standard is "something that can kill specifically a Stormraven for less than 266 points in 1 turn" then you won't find anything. The stormraven puts a lot of its points into durability and transport capacity, as evidenced by the fact that I brought up earlier: Even with perfect targets presented for all its weapons every turn it only makes its points back in 4-5 turns vs orks.

In fact, an ADL with a quad gun is worse than a kannon for the points (105 points to deal .666 unsaved wounds vs 27 points to deal .5 unsaved wounds.)

Our best bets for anti-stormraven is the Kustom Mega Kannon (1.3 unsaved wounds on average for 50 points), the regular Kannon (.5 wounds for 27 points), or the Tankbusta (.44 wounds for 17 points with either rokkits or pistols). In terms of points efficiency, the tankbustas and KMKs work out to be identical, but the tankbustas need a trukk, and the KMK is probably easier for your opponent to focus down.

Just like with a Land Raider or any other high toughness transport vehicle, you're generally going to want to either totally ignore it for a turn, or dedicate to shooting it up over several turns, or if your opponent plays aggressively with it and has an expensive unit embarked devote a full 1500-2000 points worth of stuff shooting it to bring it down in a situation where the squad inside is going to get insta-gibbed.

"just ignore it" really is a solution in the vast majority of games, not just maelstrom. The only time it isn't is when playing kill points, which is always an auto lose with a normal army vs an army of just big tough units. Most eternal war and Open War missions feature objectives. Play to them.

Please don't tell me you actually start conversations with strangers using "Hey boss"

No way! I wish I knew a pal that talked that way and had such flavor (like wolverine).

Hey Boss. gonna use it tomorrow on my employees lol

 admironheart wrote:

Please don't tell me you actually start conversations with strangers using "Hey boss"

No way! I wish I knew a pal that talked that way and had such flavor (like wolverine).

Hey Boss. gonna use it tomorrow on my employees lol

I usually start conversations with "Yo man" regardless of context. It's just my relaxed nature to feel welcoming without forcing a professional vibe.

For the first time, I actually get to field my voidravens. Do not take this from me OP.

pismakron wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
Does the OP even bring AA weaponry? If not, you can't complain about not dealing with Flyers.

I don't have flyers and I have no problem with flyers because I have invested in AA units.

What AA units would you bring as an Ork player?

Storm Boyz!

Flyer armies limit the construction of lists. Say I want to try out a mass zerker list, fluffy? yes. But it will just sit there and die against a mass flier list. I can't even charge them...

Every list I construct have to take into account the possibility of an alpha strike with a few storm ravens. Because its either that, or I just immediately concede if I meet that list?

I mean, even if its a 4 knight army, at least my mass zerker army has a chance. Not the best match up, but maybe the sheer number of attacks can carry the day. With fliers, all melee ground troops are invalidated.

And its not like said fliers are that easy to bring down either.

Flyers are easier to deal with than FMC were in 7th.

If you want to take all comers, bring fliers or AA of your own. If you want to try out a fun army like your all zerker list then play against someone else with a fun army.

verticalgain wrote:
If you want to take all comers, bring fliers or AA of your own. If you want to try out a fun army like your all zerker list then play against someone else with a fun army.

So basically I am forced to bring 4 to 6 Hydras or lose?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

verticalgain wrote:
If you want to take all comers, bring fliers or AA of your own. If you want to try out a fun army like your all zerker list then play against someone else with a fun army.

So basically I am forced to bring 4 to 6 Hydras or lose?

Or flyers of your own. Or enough volume of fire to overcome the (barely relevant in 8th) BS penalty for shooting them with normal weapons. It's not unreasonable to expect that, in a game with aircraft, you need to bring counters to aircraft if you want to win. You wouldn't expect to beat a tank-heavy list if you stubbornly refused to bring anti-tank weapons, would you?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

verticalgain wrote:
If you want to take all comers, bring fliers or AA of your own. If you want to try out a fun army like your all zerker list then play against someone else with a fun army.

So basically I am forced to bring 4 to 6 Hydras or lose?

As Imperium? No, you have a bunch of easy answers to flyers which are perfectly useful ground units outside of their AA role. I would avoid Hydras. They're only okay against flyers, especially T7 Stormravens, and terrible against everything else.

Space Marines probably want to go to Forgeworld for a BS2+ dreadnought. The Mortis Contemptor can get 4 lascannons for about 200 points. It shoots at flyers like a Predator shoots at non-flyers (incidentally, it expects to do more than twice as much damage than a Hydra to a Stormraven). It'll also benefit from Chapter Tactics when those come out. But, really, standard BS3+ shooting is just fine. Guard of course have their answer to literally everything other than other Guardsmen: plasma command squads. They're cheap enough that you don't really care that you're overheating on 2s. A Stormraven's points' worth of Scions expects to kill it in one volley. And if they don't have to shoot at flyers they're even better. Adeptus Mechanicus Onager Doomcrawlers with Icarus Arrays are really solid all-rounders, and note that Cawl's aura re-rolls all hits rather than just misses and so is especially good when there are negative modifiers at work.

Chaos can use winged Princes and/or lots of Smites to supplement their shooting.

Other factions don't have non-flyer options which are as obvious, it's true. Orks and Tyranids just don't have great answers. They can try to ignore the flyers and play the objectives, but that's about it. Necrons pretty much have to go with the Forgeworld Gauss Pylon, and that's so overpowered that you're probably going to get some dirty looks using it, either because it's a LoW that makes all other Necron anti-tank look terrible or because your opponent has a LoW himself and the Pylon erased it in a single turn. Tau quad-fusion Commanders are very popular and have BS2+. We've ruled out the standard Eldar responses to flyers, which are their own flyers, but Dark Reapers are worth a look since they ignore modifiers, and Razorwing Flocks are as good here as they are against every other big thing -- they wound Stormravens just as easily as they wound tactical Marines. Plain old Guardians are actually surprisingly good against T7 flyers if you Doom them, and shuriken cannnons are also pretty good against Doomed T6 flyers (they're inefficient against T7 tho since they're wounding as if they're catapults). Wraithguard with d-scythes auto-hit, though really Fire Dragons are still going to be better.

 Zande4 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:

 3orangewhips wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
If you don't like playing against someone's army, don't play against it. That simple. This isn't an issue. If I play a game against an army that is simply not fun to play against (or the person's a dick) - no more games with them. No worries.

It's not always that simple, nor does it provide an absence of concern.

Stormravens might need a nerf, or some armies need some help against flyers, or both. But the problem is ALSO 1st turn alpha strike. And GK are pretty dependent on those stormravens (maybe less after the codex is released).

Even if you take significant anti-flyer power, "what do you think the flyers are going to target first?" -Reece from Frontline Gaming.

So, this becomes a simple conversation with the person you're playing. "Hey man, that flyer really kills the game for me - can you run a list without it?" or "Hey boss, the last time I played against an army fielding that flyer/those flyers, it was really boring/awful, so I'll pass."

Please don't tell me you actually start conversations with strangers using "Hey boss"

Sure do.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

Orks got a bit of the short stick v. flyers, as most everyone went from hitting on 6s to -1 to hit except us.

Except Orks actually experienced no change, and enjoyed a tiny -1 to hit for 2 previous editions when other factions were copping a -3 or -4.

On topic I've always thought the idea of flyers at this scale to be incredibly stupid, especially the way they loiter on the table. FoW has a much better system that admittedly doesn't sell many flyers.

Here's your AA if you're Orks:



Stormboyz can attack flyers since they have the Fly keyword, and they have a bunch of S4 attacks which wound on 5+ since no flyer afaik has T8.
Then add the Nobs powerklaw on top.

Correct. The Stormraven is atm the toughest flyer with the possible exception of some Tau FW ones, and it's T7 (with 14 wounds and a 3+ save, which is the real reason why it's the toughest).

 MinscS2 wrote:
Here's your AA if you're Orks:


Stormboyz can attack flyers since they have the Fly keyword, and they have a bunch of S4 attacks which wound on 5+ since no flyer afaik has T8.
Then add the Nobs powerklaw on top.

Mathammers to 8.67 wounds with a maxed out (so no casualties) unit of stormboyz. This is discounting the fact that Stormboyz will never catch a 45" move flyer. http://prntscr.com/fxwrp4

 BaconCatBug wrote:

verticalgain wrote:
If you want to take all comers, bring fliers or AA of your own. If you want to try out a fun army like your all zerker list then play against someone else with a fun army.

So basically I am forced to bring 4 to 6 Hydras or lose?

Uh no. If you're Guard, Pask makes a fine FlaK gun. Hits on a 3+ with a Lascannon, 2 Multimeltas, and a Battle Cannon for some pretty hefty damage. So do Tank Commanders.

Anyone with a 3+ or better BS can pretty much dump AT fire into the think until it dies.

Get yourself a couple vengeance weapon battery and/or a firestorm redoubt. Get to orkifying the crap out of them, and now you have dakka boxes, big boom cannons, and best of all two twin Icarus lascannon arrays.

They also hit on 5+, but negate the flyer's defense bonus. They hit like a ton of bricks, and you get a cozy little box to out your lootas in (they can fire out, but your opponent can't target them until they get through the big pile of wounds with t8-9 and a 3+ save)

Orks with fortifications are brutal because the guns get +1 to hit on most if you have Boyz nearby.

Quadgun with an ork hits flyers on a 4+...

Dakkadakkadakkadakkadakka!

Most games I play are fairly small. Flyers, superheavies and fortifications tend to get left out, unless one of us wants to try model x, in which case there's advance notice.

Partly prejudiced by first trial flyers game. My Eldar opponent had nothing counter flyers (his 6s tend to come up only in leadership or morale tests). Most one sided game I've ever played, and not fun.

So, not banned, but don't turn up often.

 SneakyTheDragon wrote:
From what I understand of the game, didn't flyers used to be much harder to kill? Could only ever hit them on 6s and such?

yep it's really great for unit that can hit with 4+ and bewlo, but for ork they just became harder to kill^^, you still have to hit on 6+ while space marines hit on 4+

Which is more a problem with the really broken Ork list at the moment.

the big deal with flyers are all about the alpha strike. They will have 4-6 drops usually .. so they will get fist turn.

First turn they cripple your army.

The 5 flyer detatchement makes this even worse.

Add in a buffCharacter to reroll misses and sometimes wounds.
Tons of dakka, hard to hit, 40 + inch moves, cant be assaulted by most units, even iff assaulted they retreat and shoot again at full BS. cheap as hell for what they do.

better then a landraider which is 50+ points more.


that's why flyers are amazing now.

The Flyer Wing detachment should not be a thing. This immediately balances flyers.

And you are not guaranteed first turn in tournament format for having less drops. With chance to seize it comes out to roughly 60-40.

 zedsdead wrote:
the big deal with flyers are all about the alpha strike. They will have 4-6 drops usually .. so they will get fist turn.

First turn they cripple your army.

The 5 flyer detatchement makes this even worse.

Add in a buffCharacter to reroll misses and sometimes wounds.
Tons of dakka, hard to hit, 40 + inch moves, cant be assaulted by most units, even iff assaulted they retreat and shoot again at full BS. cheap as hell for what they do.

better then a landraider which is 50+ points more.


that's why flyers are amazing now.

Most flyers don't have POTMS like the SR, so they'd be hitting less often. If they're done deploying sooner you can easily use your reserve drops first and then deploy anything important last (like Magnus) so that he's out of range of more than 1 or 2 flyers. Then when he does get to go he'll make a couple of them look pretty sad. Replace Magnus with any other similarly important squad(s) - like RG and las devs.

For now, we are staying away from flyers. Perhaps a leftover mode from last edition, but they certainly aren't needed in casual games -- at least according to my opponents. Plus I am currently playing Death Guard, and they cannot even have one to get their consistent benefits...

 MarsNZ wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

Orks got a bit of the short stick v. flyers, as most everyone went from hitting on 6s to -1 to hit except us.

Except Orks actually experienced no change, and enjoyed a tiny -1 to hit for 2 previous editions when other factions were copping a -3 or -4.

Honestly, that's a pretty fair point.

Regarding flyers, I will say that the biggest problem I have with flyers atm is that there's nothing stopping them (that I can tell) from claiming objectives and things like linebreaker while supersonic. That's a little silly imo.

Also, supersonic transports no longer have to go into hover mode to drop off troops, which, again, is a little silly.

What about making Flyers only able to claim objectives in hover mode, where their defenses are lower?

 Melissia wrote:
Correct. The Stormraven is atm the toughest flyer with the possible exception of some Tau FW ones, and it's T7 (with 14 wounds and a 3+ save, which is the real reason why it's the toughest).

You have to be able to kill a rhino and a half. at a -1 hit penalty

in one turn before it flys over and melts your face off.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:
the big deal with flyers are all about the alpha strike. They will have 4-6 drops usually .. so they will get fist turn.

First turn they cripple your army.

The 5 flyer detatchement makes this even worse.

Add in a buffCharacter to reroll misses and sometimes wounds.
Tons of dakka, hard to hit, 40 + inch moves, cant be assaulted by most units, even iff assaulted they retreat and shoot again at full BS. cheap as hell for what they do.

better then a landraider which is 50+ points more.


that's why flyers are amazing now.

Most flyers don't have POTMS like the SR, so they'd be hitting less often. If they're done deploying sooner you can easily use your reserve drops first and then deploy anything important last (like Magnus) so that he's out of range of more than 1 or 2 flyers. Then when he does get to go he'll make a couple of them look pretty sad. Replace Magnus with any other similarly important squad(s) - like RG and las devs.

How do you deploy out of range of something with 45" movement? You could maybe make it so that the twin multi-melta cannot get half range, or the hurricane bolters cannot rapid fire. But 45" + 48" lascannon is never out of range. heck 45" + 24" multi-melta is never out of range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

Orks got a bit of the short stick v. flyers, as most everyone went from hitting on 6s to -1 to hit except us.

Except Orks actually experienced no change, and enjoyed a tiny -1 to hit for 2 previous editions when other factions were copping a -3 or -4.

Honestly, that's a pretty fair point.

Regarding flyers, I will say that the biggest problem I have with flyers atm is that there's nothing stopping them (that I can tell) from claiming objectives and things like linebreaker while supersonic. That's a little silly imo.

Also, supersonic transports no longer have to go into hover mode to drop off troops, which, again, is a little silly.

The issue is that Orks hit the same against flyers, but flyers got more durable. In 7th 3-4 glances put down pretty much every flyer. Now they have 10+ wounds, and saves. So if they are hitting the same, and doing less damage they are worse off by a lot.

 Desubot wrote:
You have to be able to kill
[...]
in one turn

No. You do not.

7th really spoiled people with the ability to just delete expensive units easily in one turn.

 Melissia wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
You have to be able to kill
[...]
in one turn

No. You do not.

7th really spoiled people with the ability to just delete expensive units easily in one turn.

Well sure you dont have to. you can half wound it for BS4. but 2 lascnnons multi meltas and 2 missile launchers should be capable of wrecking pretty much any tank on the following turn even on a 4+

besides the point of the example was that its effectively a rhino and a half. T7 3+ save 14 wounds.

Breng77 wrote:


How do you deploy out of range of something with 45" movement? You could maybe make it so that the twin multi-melta cannot get half range, or the hurricane bolters cannot rapid fire. But 45" + 48" lascannon is never out of range. heck 45" + 24" multi-melta is never out of range.

1) They're not small models and I have more information about deployment than they do.
2) They can't land on top of models - a sufficiently spread out horde will create a large no-go zone.

I feel like the biggest problem with fliers is that they imagine they can be anywhere without restriction - even on top of one another. It's the conscript problem all over again - no they can't all FRFSRF.

The bases are almost FIVE inches long and three and a half wide. If you're in a corner and you leave room for them to go sideways pointing towards an edge then they'll have to hover next turn or die. Or you can just be 3.4 inches from terrain and other units and they can't get in deep enough.

 Desubot wrote:
Well sure you dont have to. you can half wound it for BS4. but 2 lascnnons multi meltas and 2 missile launchers should be capable of wrecking pretty much any tank on the following turn even on a 4+

Even at 4+-- which most Marine vehicles and infantry will be against it-- you can easily put that much firepower in to it in return.

And it's barely any tougher than a predator, so if you think that a stormraven that's damaged to the point of hitting on 4+ is gonna delete a predator a turn, then why can't you delete a stormraven in a turn?

The stormraven build you mentioned cost 318(!!!) points. 8 devastator lascannons cost 330, with a captain nearby you reroll a third of your misses. So for barely more than the cost of the stormraven (404 pts before captain equipment, and most of the overage is the captain who you should be taking anyway because rerolling 1s is a damn good aura for 3+ shooting armies) you can get on average 3 lascannon wounds on the stormraven a turn. 3d6 damage averages out to 10-11 damage per turn, leaving the stormraven with 3-4 wounds after a single turn of shooting which could very well push it in to the range of hitting on 5+. Or just destroy it outright depending on your roll. Even without the captain you still do a lot of damage to it and will probably take it out in two turns.

So, you're going to whine, what if it goes after your lascannon squads? Well, then it's not shooting your tanks now, is it?

330 points of anti-vehicle firepower to potentially kill and definitely cripple 318 points of flyer in a single turn, and DEFINITELY kill it in two turns, isn't unreasonable. And I'm pretty sure you have better ways to deliver lascannons to the battlefield than devastators anyway.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:
the big deal with flyers are all about the alpha strike. They will have 4-6 drops usually .. so they will get fist turn.

First turn they cripple your army.

The 5 flyer detatchement makes this even worse.

Add in a buffCharacter to reroll misses and sometimes wounds.
Tons of dakka, hard to hit, 40 + inch moves, cant be assaulted by most units, even iff assaulted they retreat and shoot again at full BS. cheap as hell for what they do.

better then a landraider which is 50+ points more.


that's why flyers are amazing now.

Most flyers don't have POTMS like the SR, so they'd be hitting less often. If they're done deploying sooner you can easily use your reserve drops first and then deploy anything important last (like Magnus) so that he's out of range of more than 1 or 2 flyers. Then when he does get to go he'll make a couple of them look pretty sad. Replace Magnus with any other similarly important squad(s) - like RG and las devs.

Who takes anything other then the SR anyway

A lot of people actually. It's hard to fit a Stormraven in some lists, due to its high price in points. A Stormtalon or Stormhawk cost less but still hit pretty damn hard against the units they specialize against hitting (air units and infantry, respectively). A kitted out anti-tank stormraven costs over three hundred points; a basic Stormhawk Interceptor costs 164 points, and against air units hits almost as hard, and a Stormtalon gunship is a fairly efficient carrier of 2 ACs and 2HBs at 165 points. So you can fit a stormhawk or stormtalon in lists that could never take such an expensive unit as a stormraven, especially not a fully kitted out one.

Really, the main advantage that the Stormraven has over them is its transport capacity IMO. But if you're not using the transport capacity you should seriously consider a talon or hawk.

 Melissia wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Well sure you dont have to. you can half wound it for BS4. but 2 lascnnons multi meltas and 2 missile launchers should be capable of wrecking pretty much any tank on the following turn even on a 4+

Even at 4+-- which most Marine vehicles and infantry will be against it-- you can easily put that much firepower in to it in return.

And it's barely any tougher than a predator, so if you think that a stormraven that's damaged to the point of hitting on 4+ is gonna delete a predator a turn, then why can't you delete a stormraven in a turn?

...I didnt say anything about it not being able to....

you are ignoring my point.

a storm raven is 1.5 worth of a normal non T8 vehicle if you cant kill them then your list might be the problem.

 Desubot wrote:
...I didnt say anything about it not being able to....

A lot of other people, however, are. Sorry if it felt like I was picking on you. I was more responding to a general sentiment than to your post specifically.

 Melissia wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
...I didnt say anything about it not being able to....

A lot of other people, however, are. Sorry if it felt like I was picking on you. I was more responding to a general sentiment than to your post specifically.

Yeah no problem.

iv played against at least one storm raven in the last like 3 games.

they have died. some in very funny ways. but they do pack a hell of a punch even at half.

still cheesed i threw 10 lascannons at it on 4+s and only did a total of 2 wounds :/

People take stormravens not because of their durability, or because of their shooting, they take them because they're incredibly mobile and can't be charged by most things.

There are more efficient ways to have devastating firepower. 2 venerable dreads with twin las + twin auto = 4 lascannon, 8 autocannon shots a turn at 48", hitting on 2s, and is far cheaper than a lascannon/missile raven. And if you get reroll 1s, the odds of you hitting are pretty damn good.

The problem is that those dreadnoughts are incredibly vulnerable to assault. And, if you don't have LOS, you may not be able to get it on your first turn.

With Ravens, you won't worry about assault, and you WILL be hitting your target on your first turn. It's not some magical unkillable unit, it's just a mobile flyer that you won't easily turn 1 charge.

And really, if you take away the flyer detachment, they're fine. Having to bring an HQ and a troop for every 2 fliers is fair. That cuts down raven spam dramatically. Also, auxiliary detachment shouldn't be a thing. At all.

verticalgain wrote:
If you want to take all comers, bring fliers or AA of your own. If you want to try out a fun army like your all zerker list then play against someone else with a fun army.

How does bringing your own flyers help you kill flyers? There are very few that are any better at killing flyers than other units and you can always get more guns for less points in a non-flyer.

Anything in the new SM codex help against flyers?

Well now that flyers got nerfed (if all you have on the field are flyers, you lose at the end of the turn), I think this thread is due for a close. It shouldn't be hard, if a player is spamming flyers, to just ignore them and go after their ground units exclusively, thus forcing them off the board in one or two turns.

 Melissia wrote:
Well now that flyers got nerfed (if all you have on the field are flyers, you lose at the end of the turn), I think this thread is due for a close. It shouldn't be hard, if a player is spamming flyers, to just ignore them and go after their ground units exclusively, thus forcing them off the board in one or two turns.

Unless their ground units are 150 conscripts+ commissars, and maybe rowboat as well

Sure, you can take one less flyer and a bunch of Conscripts. This sounds to me like a much less effective list.

First, this means that you have one less flyer to alpha strike with on turn 1. Conscripts don't actually play nice with Stormravens. Stormravens want to be within 12", or at least 24", and they want to be there fast. Now you're much less threatening to a shooty army.

Second, with a Commissar and a Commander, this is at least 3 more drops than you had before, so you're less likely to go first.

I mean, you don't have to table their ground forces to beat flyer spam now. You can still win the normal way. And if they're taking 400 points in tax that doesn't contribute to the battle in the first turn or two, that's going to be very possible.

zerosignal wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Well now that flyers got nerfed (if all you have on the field are flyers, you lose at the end of the turn), I think this thread is due for a close. It shouldn't be hard, if a player is spamming flyers, to just ignore them and go after their ground units exclusively, thus forcing them off the board in one or two turns.

Unless their ground units are 150 conscripts+ commissars, and maybe rowboat as well

Which means they have ~900 points worth on non flyer models, which means you get 3-4 storm ravens depending on loadout. Not a weak list, but significantly less powerful when you have 10-11 drops, and 2-4 less ravens.

Breng77 wrote:

zerosignal wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Well now that flyers got nerfed (if all you have on the field are flyers, you lose at the end of the turn), I think this thread is due for a close. It shouldn't be hard, if a player is spamming flyers, to just ignore them and go after their ground units exclusively, thus forcing them off the board in one or two turns.

Unless their ground units are 150 conscripts+ commissars, and maybe rowboat as well

Which means they have ~900 points worth on non flyer models, which means you get 3-4 storm ravens depending on loadout. Not a weak list, but significantly less powerful when you have 10-11 drops, and 2-4 less ravens.

Yeah. 150 conscripts + support is 9 drops unless you're not going hide your commissars and commanders in order to cover multiple conscript squads with less HQs.

Better pray your opponent doesn't have assassins.