It’s been more than a decade since we last visited the Underhive, but very soon you’ll be able to battle it out in the depths of Hive Primus.
If you’re new to the hobby, you may not be familiar with Necromunda – or perhaps you’ve only heard about it from the fond memories of other hobbyists. Necromunda dives into the underworld of the Imperium, allowing players to control their own Hive Gang – a pack of ruthless criminal killers augmented with black-market cybernetics, gene modifications and scavenged weaponry. Where Warhammer 40,000 puts you at the head of an army, in Necromunda, the scale is much smaller but the action is just as intense – every single Ganger counts.
Between intense skirmish battles, your gang will grow from a pack of battle-hungry Juves to a feared and respected syndicate of hardened veterans. To get there, however, you’ll have to battle against your fellow players, each with a gang of their own.
The Underhive is a big place, and the gangs that inhabit it are as diverse as the alien races that inhabit the 41st Millennium. We’re launching Necromunda with two classics.
Gangs from House Escher are fast, deadly, and cruel. While lightly armoured, these cunning warrior women hold their own in melee combat, while at range, they are notorious for their use of armour-melting plasma weaponry.
The gangers of House Goliath are a living testament to brawn over brains. Every member of House Goliath is a slab of vat-grown muscle, armed and armoured with repurposed industrial gear.
What makes these miniatures even better is that they’ll be available in multi-part, plastic kits – so easy to assemble, customise and paint into a gang of your own.
Keep your eyes on Warhammer Community for all the latest news and previews.
Could easily just be a teaser announcement next month. Can't see them dropping a Necromunda reboot right after 8th edition, but I won't be upset if I'm wrong. Just going to be a lot of stuff to put out in a short time frame.
It's a skirmish game based on 2nd edition 40k rules, with a campaign system that allows your gang to accrue experience, skills and gear with each game you play.
A year ago I would have said they were deliberately fething with the fans (actually.. you wouldn't have had any opportunity to ask that question, and certainly not got an answer! And the letter to the team would probably have been used as toilet paper in GWHQ)
But now having seen what looks like a total culture change in the company, them putting the 'Game' back into 'Games Workshop', and the likes of Blood Bowl coming back? Who knows, fingers crossed!
PS - A video game that accurately followed the rules of the tabletop game (like Space Hulk or Blood Bowl, NOT Mordheim) would be very nice also, thankyou!
insaniak wrote:It's a skirmish game based on 2nd edition 40k rules, with a campaign system that allows your gang to accrue experience, skills and gear with each game you play.
Thank you. Now I see why I never anything about it because it was in second edition, and I totally missed that edition. Nobody wanted to get into Rogue Trader so I quit it and didn't really get back into 4th edition.
I suggested that pistol was Necromunda related and it was scoffed at.. Reds8n drops the same idea and suddenly it's plausible? gotta love the internet..
I suspect it'll be like Bloodbowl. A couple of gangs, a new box set with some terrain (hopefully new), and a few classic re-releases to supplement. That would be amazing if only to cool off some of the ebay Necromunda prices.. they've been kinda ridiculous lately.
I still think people are putting way too much into this....and are likely to be bitterly disappointed. So far, Specialist Games has managed to release Blood Bowl, but with a bunch of poor choices on composition and availability, and bungled the plans for Adeptus Titanicus so badly the game is still a ways out. So to think they're going to pull this completely out of their butt in a few months is pretty unrealistic. Expect video game news, and be stunned if it's anything else.
totalfailure wrote: I still think people are putting way too much into this....and are likely to be bitterly disappointed. So far, Specialist Games has managed to release Blood Bowl, but with a bunch of poor choices on composition and availability, and bungled the plans for Adeptus Titanicus so badly the game is still a ways out. So to think they're going to pull this completely out of their butt in a few months is pretty unrealistic. Expect video game news, and be stunned if it's anything else.
When has bungling anything ever stopped GW?
Seriously though.. come on.. Shadow War, Shade Spire, AOS Skirmish plus the success of all the video games based on specialist titles... ESPECIALLY Shadow War..
As to bungling Adeptus Titanicus.. I had heard from the start it was due out next year or later.. No idea where you're getting that it was messed up or whatever but the release schedule never had it slated for 2017..
Titanicus was supposed to be all but done. The rules are pretty much done...but they were convinced all resin models, hideously expensive, and available only from Forge World was going to be a success. If that was the product that was going to be released, it was doomed from day 1, like Aeronautica Imperialis....poor decision making...
Shadow War was nothing. Probably a couple weeks worth of writing to adapt the rules. The terrain was not designed for it; it was coming out anyway, with or without Armageddon. Old models included in game. The whole thing was basically a starter box for Mechanicus terrain. How much support has it gotten? If it were not for internet crying over the rulebook, it would have been dead and gone already. Oh wait, it is dead and gone already...zero support other than the separate rulebook.
I would buy an unhealthy amount of M2O models. On fact I considered mailing them about M2O Necro just this week, but I didn't know whether to use FB or the MO email address or write WD. Especially Eshers. But especially Cawdor! /Sideshow Bob
The OG gangs done in the vein of the original models but in convertable plastic and slightly better proportions would leave me ecstatic beyond words.
totalfailure wrote: Titanicus was supposed to be all but done. The rules are pretty much done...but they were convinced all resin models, hideously expensive, and available only from Forge World was going to be a success. If that was the product that was going to be released, it was doomed from day 1, like Aeronautica Imperialis....poor decision making...
Shadow War was nothing. Probably a couple weeks worth of writing to adapt the rules. The terrain was not designed for it; it was coming out anyway, with or without Armageddon. Old models included in game. The whole thing was basically a starter box for Mechanicus terrain. How much support has it gotten? If it were not for internet crying over the rulebook, it would have been dead and gone already. Oh wait, it is dead and gone already...zero support other than the separate rulebook.
Apart from some additional articles in WD, and the fact that it's only really been around a few months... what's the usual lead-in time for any kind of expansion for a boxed game? How quickly were the Talisman expansions coming out from Fantasy Flight? Every few weeks? Hah.
I don't understand the cynicism. Shadow War was a really nice little boxed game. Great terrain, a bunch of figures that are getting a bit long in the tooth, a set of updated Necromunda rules to test the waters for an inevitable (and effectively confirmed) Necromunda re-release/redesign for a net discount on the individual terrain sets that followed...? I'm not going to sniff at that. NB: I didn't buy it as I'm not interested if it isn't actual Necromunda, but I also don't understand why anyone would want to throw shade at it. It's a complete, self-contained rule set in a book/box that arguably needs no support at all.
Titanicus plans changed due to the feedback they were getting from fans.
Let me say that again:
Titanicus plans changed due to the feedback they were getting from fans.
Release didn't shift that much as far as I'm aware, though the composition of the release did (plastics being expanded and so on).
But how listening to feedback counts as "bungling" is utterly beyond me.
Apart from some additional articles in WD, and the fact that it's only really been around a few months... what's the usual lead-in time for any kind of expansion for a boxed game?
.
That really depends on what the company expects from it.
When Necromunda was released, for example, it had massive support for some time in White Dwarf, with showcases, modeling articles, battle reports, scenarios, etc, followed by an ongoing series of content in the dedicated Necromunda magazine that Specialist Games started up. All geared towards keeping interest up and driving sales.
The thing is, none of that would have been useful for Shadow Wars given how quickly it sold out. There's no point putting effort into support material to keep up interest if you have no intention of releasing anything beyond the initial splash-release box set.
Yeah. The old old GW (as opposed to the pre-Rountree version) broadly supported the big two/three (depending on where in its life cycle Epic was) and then roughly once a year a what we would now call Specialist game would get a new incarnation, heavy support in the Dwarf and at least one expansion plus boxes and blisters of new models over the following year or so, only for the cycle to begin again with the next game once it was all done.
Nu-GW tends to just gak out the game and be done. This isn't a criticism of those games necessarily, but it's not the same approach and there's no recent historic reason to expect anything beyond an initial release of its from GW proper.
If this comes under the auspices of the new Specialist division, there may be more cause for optimism, but if this is SW: Necromunda then it could very likely be another one shot.
TBF, I'm not overly impressed with the way BB has limped and lurched its way out since the initial release, with highly variable model quality and erratic availability, so I'm not sure Necromunda getting released under either authority is a good thing right now, maybe video game news could actually be for the best in the long term?
totalfailure wrote: Titanicus was supposed to be all but done. The rules are pretty much done...but they were convinced all resin models, hideously expensive, and available only from Forge World was going to be a success. If that was the product that was going to be released, it was doomed from day 1, like Aeronautica Imperialis....poor decision making...
Shadow War was nothing. Probably a couple weeks worth of writing to adapt the rules. The terrain was not designed for it; it was coming out anyway, with or without Armageddon. Old models included in game. The whole thing was basically a starter box for Mechanicus terrain. How much support has it gotten? If it were not for internet crying over the rulebook, it would have been dead and gone already. Oh wait, it is dead and gone already...zero support other than the separate rulebook.
Apart from some additional articles in WD, and the fact that it's only really been around a few months... what's the usual lead-in time for any kind of expansion for a boxed game? How quickly were the Talisman expansions coming out from Fantasy Flight? Every few weeks? Hah.
I don't understand the cynicism. Shadow War was a really nice little boxed game. Great terrain, a bunch of figures that are getting a bit long in the tooth, a set of updated Necromunda rules to test the waters for an inevitable (and effectively confirmed) Necromunda re-release/redesign for a net discount on the individual terrain sets that followed...? I'm not going to sniff at that. NB: I didn't buy it as I'm not interested if it isn't actual Necromunda, but I also don't understand why anyone would want to throw shade at it. It's a complete, self-contained rule set in a book/box that arguably needs no support at all.
Titanicus plans changed due to the feedback they were getting from fans.
Let me say that again:
Titanicus plans changed due to the feedback they were getting from fans.
Release didn't shift that much as far as I'm aware, though the composition of the release did (plastics being expanded and so on).
But how listening to feedback counts as "bungling" is utterly beyond me.
They were planning on a bad idea for Titanicus. It should have been painfully obvious it was a bad idea to have the Titans in resin with such limited availability. It should not have taken community feedback to change their mind. Your average houseplant should have been able to foretell that plan was going to be a disaster, re: Aeronautica Imperialis. Not every release needs to appeal to every last GW customer. But the opinions of Forge World fanboys aside, it was apparent the game would be super super niche going that route. And I think there is more support out there for Titanicus/Epic than something so limiting.
And Armageddon is what it is - a bargain basement as little effort as possible release to show off the Mechanicus terrain. Some people liked it. Good for them. That doesn't mean a Necromunda box is coming out of nowhere in the next few weeks, based on an unlabeled rumor picture of part of one weapon, and a comment in White Dwarf that could much more easily have been about an already known video game.
Frankly, I don't get all the love for Necromunda anyway. The setting and background are good. The rules 2E/Necromunda rules are weak at best. And that is not a fault with just that game. Here it is, 30 years after Rogue Trader, and GW is still stuck on Igo/Hugo game systems that were getting obsolete in the 80s.
adamsouza wrote: I want Necromunda, but I want Necromunda with an updated rules set and not just a reprint of the same 20 year old rules.
You're probably better off finding a different game that you can play with Necromunda models, then, because this is unlikely to have significantly different rules. At most, I would expect to see sustained fire dice removed (as they were in the Living Ruleset version) and possibly templates removed ala current 40K. And a drastic reduction in allowable gear to match whatever model range they wind up releasing to go with it.
adamsouza wrote: I want Necromunda, but I want Necromunda with an updated rules set and not just a reprint of the same 20 year old rules.
You're probably better off finding a different game that you can play with Necromunda models, then, because this is unlikely to have significantly different rules. At most, I would expect to see sustained fire dice removed (as they were in the Living Ruleset version) and possibly templates removed ala current 40K. And a drastic reduction in allowable gear to match whatever model range they wind up releasing to go with it.
That would be an updated rule set...
Necromunda used 2E's close combat rules. I'd like that updated to an AOS/8E to hit number.
Necromunda used 2E's shooting rules. I'd like that updated to an AOS/8E to hit number.
Necromunda used 2E's cover rules. I'd like that updated to an 8E armor save improvement, instead of a to hit modifier.
Necromunda used 2E's sustained fire and templates rules. I'd like that updated to an 8E, where those don't exist.
Essentially, I'd like the core combat mechanics to be closer to 8E than 2E. It would make it much easier to teach new people how to play.
adamsouza wrote: I want Necromunda, but I want Necromunda with an updated rules set and not just a reprint of the same 20 year old rules.
You're probably better off finding a different game that you can play with Necromunda models, then, because this is unlikely to have significantly different rules. At most, I would expect to see sustained fire dice removed (as they were in the Living Ruleset version) and possibly templates removed ala current 40K. And a drastic reduction in allowable gear to match whatever model range they wind up releasing to go with it.
Then there is the question of whether GW is capable of writing a decent upgraded rule set for Necromunda (beyond the stuff adamsouza posted). I'm betting no...
Essentially, I'd like the core combat mechanics to be closer to 8E than 2E. It would make it much easier to teach new people how to play.
Yes, and my point was that this is unlikely. Any changes are likely to be minimal, and only what is required based on current material availability and business directions.
From what was mentioned at Warhammer Fest, Shadow War Armageddon is a product of the main design studio, not Specialist Games. Any future Necromunda edition will not necessarily use the old rules or have anything to do with SWA. You might as well read up on Confrontation for hints on the direction of the game. Not that they were admitting to even having a production schedule after Adeptus Titanicus, but Battlefleet Gothic seemed the most likely game to come next. I'm not expecting Necromunda 3rd edtion before 2020.
Definitely. On the other hand, I have my doubts that an open campaign system like Necromunda's could ever be balanced enough to make it appear fair..
There was, of course, a bit of an equaliser in that whatever absurd combo you managed to roll, or equipment you managed to score, could be lost through a single bad roll.
I remember a campaign where one of my regular opponents rolled a one -in-a-million sniper rifle with his Inventor leader. Gave it to a ganger with a bunch of kickass shooty skills... And then in the next game I captured that ganger. There was swearing.
For all its flaws, Necromunda was an awful lot if fun of you didn't take it too seriously.
As much as I love Necromunda, I'm rather cautious about this announcement. I don't mind if it's about a video game, as this in turn may turn on nostalgia for tabletop version and more people will just download one of three available rulesets.
I don't mind new models, but I don't crave them, as converting readily available 40K models is large part of my personal fun with Necromunda nowadays. Though I understand people, who eagerly await new model range - I would probably grab one or two new gangs myself. But given that old Necromunda had about 200 unique sculpts and six main gangs I highly doubt, that we will get anything near that if and when GW decides to hit on this.
But what I fear mostly is what adamsouza wants comes true - that an "updated" ruleset that will reintroduce "modernised" Necromunda in a twisted and/or stripped down form, that will generate entirely different tabletop experience. Even SWA feels different (and I don't mean campaign mode and kill teams power level - Genestealer Cults is very close to a proper gang but still plays differently under SWA rulebook). I'm in the middle of an Original Necromunda campaign right now (not even 2.0 or Living Ruleset) and this is IMHO still one of the best skirmish rulesets out there and "I go, you go" isn't realy any drawback at all with enough terrain to utilize Hide rule properly.
Definitely. On the other hand, I have my doubts that an open campaign system like Necromunda's could ever be balanced enough to make it appear fair..
There was, of course, a bit of an equaliser in that whatever absurd combo you managed to roll, or equipment you managed to score, could be lost through a single bad roll.
I remember a campaign where one of my regular opponents rolled a one -in-a-million sniper rifle with his Inventor leader. Gave it to a ganger with a bunch of kickass shooty skills... And then in the next game I captured that ganger. There was swearing.
For all its flaws, Necromunda was an awful lot if fun of you didn't take it too seriously.
Fully agreed. Necromunda is my favorite GW game and there are definitely balancing mechanisms in place. Pretty clever ones, too, like favoring the underdog when scenarios are chosen couple with scenarios where a superior gang can't bring its full numbers to bear, allowing underdogs to win and catch up.
It's raw in places, but has a fair number of elegant rules. And, as you say, this is a GW game where I felt it was genuinely constructed to facilitate fun (unlike more recent efforts) through rules interactions and some randomness to the point where balance could take the backseat without detriment to the game. That's something I don't see anymore in modern GW games.
insaniak wrote: And a drastic reduction in allowable gear to match whatever model range they wind up releasing to go with it.
That would rip the heart and soul out of Necromunda.
But save people from some pretty gakky WAAC gear loadout options that I can't remember were, but easily bought.
It would certainly benefit the people still willing to play with the carcass of Necromunda.
insaniak wrote: It was certainly a game that would have benefited from some balancing.
Definitely. On the other hand, I have my doubts that an open campaign system like Necromunda's could ever be balanced enough to make it appear fair.
But there were definitely things that could have been tweaked for a better experience.
It's perfectly possible, You just need better scenarios, advancement and equipment balancing.
You'll never be able to account for the player actions. If a player is good or lucky in their first games, they'll gain a lasting advantage. That's the nature of campaign play. You have to reward players for winning or else there is no point in playing, and you have to allow the other players to be able to catch up or else there is no point in playing. It's hard to reconcile these factors and, I would argue, makes game design more concerned with managing the power gap that will inevitably form rather than trying to establish universal balance.
When it comes to balance, I would hesitate to use the word "perfect".
The best equaliser for Necromunda was the players. One gang getting a runaway lead? team up against them. Or have the other gangs play a load of Scavengers scenarios against each other over the course of an afternoon.
Not perfect. The words were balanced enough to appear fair. That's perfectly possible.
You make the scenarios more fair and you make the success and failure spirals much less severe.
You get absolute demi gods way too easily and the max power odds way too good with some of the stupid combinations.
Necromunda is a very fun game, if people play within reasonable limits. It just needs those reasonable limits codifying in the rules so it's not up to each individual players interpretation where fair is.
Vorian wrote: Not perfect. The words were balanced enough to appear fair. That's perfectly possible.
You make the scenarios more fair and you make the success and failure spirals much less severe.
You get absolute demi gods way too easily and the max power odds way too good with some of the stupid combinations.
Necromunda is a very fun game, if people play within reasonable limits. It just needs those reasonable limits codifying in the rules so it's not up to each individual players interpretation where fair is.
My mistake. I misread you. I don't disagree with any of this.
I would be happy enough if they based it on Shadow War Armageddon. It removed the most obviously broken skills (such as Marksman) and added a to-hit penalty for shooting at running opponents which is actually a pretty huge change, especially for close combat gangs which spend most of the game running and were always much harder to play. The only major change I could see would be to make Pinning less penalizing. Otherwise I think the rules work great as they are.
Vorian wrote: It's perfectly possible, You just need better scenarios, advancement and equipment balancing.
I've made one part of the above quote very obvious, as it's the key point for any Necromunda redo.
Shadow War made it very apparent very quickly that the stock standard Necromunda scenarios are ancient unwieldy things that need complete rewriting. And there needs to be more of them. Yes, I love The Scavengers because it's a fun mission that requires players to do something other than line up and shoot one another, but you can't just play that one scenario over and over again.
For a new Necromunda to work, as much as the game would benefit from changes to the Advance table (some of the SW ideas for this are great!) and equipment balancing (and expansion - rare trade chart never went far enough IMO!), it's the scenarios that have to come first.
Shadow War made it very apparent very quickly that the stock standard Necromunda scenarios are ancient unwieldy things that need complete rewriting. And there needs to be more of them. Yes, I love The Scavengers because it's a fun mission that requires players to do something other than line up and shoot one another, but you can't just play that one scenario over and over again.
If you are able to just line up and shoot then you are using not enough terrain. Drastically not enough.
If you have the option of playing with a good game master, that person can be a balancing element. The gang that is getting too far ahead and is lethal to all opponents?
Next time two gangs are teaming up and will form one team against them to ambush the gangs HQ.
Maybe they are getting so powerful the Hives upper government is worried they could be a potential threat to overthrow or challenge the chain of command... Well in that case, the GM sends a team of bounty hunters, mercy, local PDF or Arbites kill team into the under hive to route out this seed of heresy before it can truly flourish.
Maybe the noble houses of the upper hive have heard rumours of this dangerous gang, and it is making them salivate at the thought of hunting them, so they sydr suit up and head on down.
If the answer is "you need a good GM" - then what you have is a game that's broken and needs fixing as you go.
I agree with HBMC, scenarios are the most obvious area that needs massive work. More and better. Do not try to balance the game through stupidly weighted scenarios (!)
I recommend everyone to download the "Necromunda compilations I & II" which is a collection of articles from Citadel Journal, WD, supplements etc with new gangs, rules and most importantly dozens of new scenarios to play. Super fun to try them out and I highly recommend it.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: If you have the option of playing with a good game master, that person can be a balancing element. The gang that is getting too far ahead and is lethal to all opponents?
Next time two gangs are teaming up and will form one team against them to ambush the gangs HQ.
Maybe they are getting so powerful the Hives upper government is worried they could be a potential threat to overthrow or challenge the chain of command... Well in that case, the GM sends a team of bounty hunters, mercy, local PDF or Arbites kill team into the under hive to route out this seed of heresy before it can truly flourish.
Maybe the noble houses of the upper hive have heard rumours of this dangerous gang, and it is making them salivate at the thought of hunting them, so they sydr suit up and head on down.
All great scenarios. Only problem is NONE of them address the core problem of broken skills, item combinations or simple power leveling of characters turning them into mini SLY MARBOOOOO clones.
Shadow War worked because each faction had a niche or different play style through gear or stats. Name me any player who in a competitive campaign of Necromunda who didn't use the Van Saar's to get the ultra spammy 'inventor' skill on EVERY ganger.
I love Necromunda. But even I had to lay down some SERIOUS house rules while I DM'd a campaign. Out of the 5 people who took part, I had to ask 1 to leave and give a severe gypsy warning to another. First guy was blatantly power gaming and trying to bend the rules for his own purpose. Quickly banned when it was obvious he didn't give a monkeys. Second guy was going against the spirit of the game, by always fighting the weakest gang at the time. After the 3rd game, told him I knew exactly what he was doing and to cut the crap. He started playing within the spirit of it, and became much better because if it.
That's why I'm hoping it's an 8th edition vibe crossed with Shadow Wars rule set. Easier to learn, less scope for douche WAR abuse and very quick FAQ on issues.
Sorry, I wasn't saying my way is the best. It just means when combos are discovered and you get some WAAC guys, or even people who stumble upon them by accident getting too powerful, you can bring them down a peg. And heck, who doesn't love an uber villain who everyone can rally together to tackle.
Powerful combos will always be around in any game, at least in an RPG element, the objective over seer can minimise it slightly, or turn the narrative to get people to work together. And you can't get rid of powerful combo's either otherwise you'd have to get rid of too many options and make the game bland. Some need to be nerved, but not everything.
Freddy Kruger wrote: Name me any player who in a competitive campaign of Necromunda who didn't use the Van Saar's to get the ultra spammy 'inventor' skill on EVERY ganger.
What on earth is a "competitive" Necromunda campaign? That's like playing an RPG to win. No one played Van Saar because the models were ugly and the hardest to convert due to their unique style of weaponry.
Anyway, if a new edition ever comes out, you'll just have to rely on Forge World's staff creating a balanced game.
I thought Shadow War: Armageddon was pretty underwhelming. However, if a Necromunda re-release fixes that - OR provides new plastic model options (bonus points applied for Arbites)...and possibly brings new plastic terrain to expand the SWA line ---- then I could be okay with it.
Not exaggerating, I think if they did a re-release...80% of the people buying it would be playing old Yaktribe Necromunda in place of a newer rule-set.
I do agree that GW's "nothing without a model" policy would absolutely WRECK a new Necromunda project before it goes anywhere.
PS: To avoid having to make 5-6 gangs, I could easily see this game being "Necromunda: Uprising" featuring a single type of gang vs. Arbites etc. That way you appease all kinds of crowds without having to dedicate yourself- there is no way they'll do more than a couple of plastic releases for Necromunda unless it takes off huge. But a boxed game with a non-descript gang vs. Arbites? Easily an option. You then toss in a dataslate for armed gangers or Arbites to be included in your Imperium 40K games as well. Boop.
Freddy Kruger wrote: Name me any player who in a competitive campaign of Necromunda who didn't use the Van Saar's to get the ultra spammy 'inventor' skill on EVERY ganger.
What on earth is a "competitive" Necromunda campaign? That's like playing an RPG to win. No one played Van Saar because the models were ugly and the hardest to convert due to their unique style of weaponry.
Anyway, if a new edition ever comes out, you'll just have to rely on Forge World's staff creating a balanced game.
I second that question - why on earth every game has to be competetive? Necromunda clearly isn't one.
H.B.M.C. wrote:
nou wrote: If you are able to just line up and shoot then you are using not enough terrain. Drastically not enough.
Not really the point I was getting at mate.
I simply pointed out, that your experience with unballanced scenarios might, just might be due to innapropriate handling of this game? I never had problems with brokenly one sided scenarios. Even basic Gang Fight is a brain-stretcher on a densely packed terrain. I can get gangs to CC, "all overwatch" isn't a viable strategy on my tables and since you can win games with fresh juves with hand flamers I don't realy see where this "necromunda needs heavy rebalance of scenarios because only Scavengers require anything other than shooting each other" is coming from...
I don't mind a new Necromunda game, but I do mind the million dollar price tag.
GW has the old too hot/ too cold syndrome down to a science.
It will be De ja Vue all over again, when they think people want to drop 500+ for a skirmish game. My local shop still has a gak load of the Shadow War stuff still on the shelves.
WHY? Because of the over-reach-around price. ( I mean, damn, GW- at least take me out to dinner first.)
To the Necromunda WAAC point- If you are playing it that way, you are missing the point. If you can't take a couple of scrub gangers, and use what they have, and struggle- YOU are going to have a bad time of it. You might as well just get a couple of space marines, and go at it with a squad on mission approach, if that pulls that hair.
Of course, you can always do what We used to do, and use your imagination.
Drop in a couple of chaos monsters, drop in a river troll, drop in a plaguebearer/ bloodletter/ pink horror, drop in an IG squad, make missions based on movie scenarios.
Isolate the gangers, put stipulations on- ( One ganger, 5 juves. and loadout.)
Add in subplots, etc.etc.etc... Point being that the scenarios were weak, but the game was so versatile that you can do lots with it with minimal effort to have a good time with it.
The idea was to be able to play with a couple of gangs and have a good time. 1st edition, the game group I played with almost turned it into an obsession. The Second edition missed the mark, and if GW thinks people are in the same position that they were back in 92-96 timeframe, they are sorely missing their market yet again.
The prices have broken peoples backs at this point. They get that under control, they might even keep the few players they have left.
Our favourite was to take the Lord of the Spire Arbitrator scenario (a bit like Total Wipeout, It's a Knockout or Gladiators, but with automatic weaponry), put the Big Red Button on top of a five or six-storey tower, and rule that the ground level was water, so models landing in it weren't injured, and have at it. Sometimes we put an Ork or a Genestealer at the top for a laugh.
We also played using the WYSIWYG rules. That tended to ensure that gangs were made up of models we liked, rather than "optimising" the weapons and equipment. YMMV.
Look, I get that the old SGs weren't perfect, but if you want some radical new gameplay experience please, please just go and play a radical new game and leave one sodding thing for people with fond memories of the older systems.
If you want "AoSheim", play AoS Skirmish or Path to Glory and leave Mordheim alone. If you want "Newcromunda" then wait for the inevitable 40K-ified version of those products that you'll doubtless get once the initial glut of codex releases has passed. You don't need to try appropriating the one solitary aspect of post-Kirby GW's output that is supposed to be catering to vets.
They all looked like circus strongmen (or Charles Bronson or Freddy Mercury) to me. Except the Juves, they looked like Bill Clinton.
As far as a new game goes, I want it to be in a new hive on Necromunda, with six new Houses to give us more background material. However, I'd like that new material as well as the old, and I'd be happy for the new gangs to be simple "reskins" of the old ones. The only difference was which of the skill charts all members of a gang had access to, so it would be easy enough to have a different House which aslo has access to Agility skills like House Escher, for instance.
That would provide something new for me, and also allow the people who want to continue in the old setting, but who may be interested in a new set of rules to do so.
One of my all time favorite games, I think only coming a narrow second to BFG.
I choose to Trust and Believe in the new GW, that has, so far, been doing great things. Plastics for Necromunda gangs would be amazing, just think of the conversion potential in them as well. I would love to dust off the Obsidian Sisterhood and give them a repaint.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: One of my all time favorite games, I think only coming a narrow second to BFG.
I choose to Trust and Believe in the new GW, that has, so far, been doing great things. Plastics for Necromunda gangs would be amazing, just think of the conversion potential in them as well. I would love to dust off the Obsidian Sisterhood and give them a repaint.
Spoiler:
Yeah, that's always been a top artwork. I want a buff Escher heavy like that.
Vorian wrote: I can do this, I can do that are meaningless. I could play my 6 year old and basically do what I like.
There isn't a need for a competitive game - there is a need for a game which is fun without having to introduce self regulation.
Is having appropriate terrain density a self regulation? I never had a problem with Marksman skill, because it isn't broken on a table with just two or three narrow shooting lanes reaching further than 12" away from a shooter and perfectly represents sniper "movement lanes denial" role.
This is one of those silly things peddled around all the time. Unless you're playing on a table that has literal line of sight blocking (such as a zone mortalis table) then there's always plenty of shots to be had.
Playing on one of those tables is then a totally game which have their own downsides.
There is no reason why a table with plenty of cover providing terrain, which is basically what everybody is actually going to be playing on, can't give you a good game of Necromunda.
Stupid skills like marksman just need to not exist, BS 6 gangers with Infrared sights need not exist, charge ranges from one side of the board to another need not exist. The ambush scenario need not be decided on a few dice rolls at the start.
There are silly little fixable problems that can just be solved easily.
Vorian wrote: This is one of those silly things peddled around all the time. Unless you're playing on a table that has literal line of sight blocking (such as a zone mortalis table) then there's always plenty of shots to be had.
Playing on one of those tables is then a totally game which have their own downsides.
There is no reason why a table with plenty of cover providing terrain, which is basically what everybody is actually going to be playing on, can't give you a good game of Necromunda.
Stupid skills like marksman just need to not exist, BS 6 gangers with Infrared sights need not exist, charge ranges from one side of the board to another need not exist. The ambush scenario need not be decided on a few dice rolls at the start.
There are silly little fixable problems that can just be solved easily.
You really can't imagine a non-zone mortalis style "continuous wall" tables that provide plentiful of LoS blocking and cover all over the table? Multi-level terrain with a lot of platforms and walkways, small terrain features, random debris, features hanging down from upper levels etc when dense enough provide so much los cut-off points, that it is usually just a partial angle or a narrow line of clear sight from any point on the table. You simply cannot play Necromunda on 40K style table, this game hasn't been designed for that. But it works like charm with proper table as is. Marksman just forces you to utilise Hide rule carefully, infrared sight don't work in overwatch and through solid walls and if it's so long into campaign, that there are BS6 gangers with infrareds, then there are most certainly other gangers with movement, infiltration and CC boosting skills to counter them.
And an ambush scenario is one of those campaign balancing mechanisms mentioned above and voluntary bottle out at second casaulty is a very valid way out of it. Nothing from this list of your needs "fixing". I have an impression, that you expect Necromunda to be ballanced with "standalone missions on minimal terrain setup" 40K-like approach in mind and not with "perpetual RPG-like campaign with a lot of against-all-odds missions in drastically differing conditions" it actually has been designed with.
As many terrain companies as there are, I think people might've gotten a bit lazy. If you only recently started wargaming you might not know but there was a time when most terrain was actually made by players. Foam board from the dollar store, cardboard from boxes, random things from around the house, bits from the bits box, craft paint and if you're lucky some actual flock and maybe .. some water effects of some sort.
Now everything is styrene, mdf, resin, HIPS, HDF, whatever.. I get it.. I have a TON of that stuff.. but one of the things about the old specialist ranges was they taught you to not rely on pre-made.. ready to go type stuff.. since there really wasn't any. You wanted a fight in a crowded city block.. you would make your own. TBH, some of those old terrain pieces were better than a lot of these MDF kits and more durable that most of the plastic and resin stuff.
I hope to see a resurgence of hobby-related focus. One thing GW has gotten "right" over these years, it's building dependence on ready made kits.
I'm all for Newcromunda. i'm gonna be scared into preordering so I don't miss it like shadow war armageddon
That's like asking if George Peppard's hair ever had color.
Surely if we get a new Necromunda, it'll be a specialist game and just as available as Blood Bowl still is, no? I mean, it's not Shadow War that builds on the existing 40k range. There won't be more than two gangs in a possible starter set. How could they even support a new Necromunda with a fire and forget release?
Vorian wrote: This is one of those silly things peddled around all the time. Unless you're playing on a table that has literal line of sight blocking (such as a zone mortalis table) then there's always plenty of shots to be had.
Playing on one of those tables is then a totally game which have their own downsides.
There is no reason why a table with plenty of cover providing terrain, which is basically what everybody is actually going to be playing on, can't give you a good game of Necromunda.
Stupid skills like marksman just need to not exist, BS 6 gangers with Infrared sights need not exist, charge ranges from one side of the board to another need not exist. The ambush scenario need not be decided on a few dice rolls at the start.
There are silly little fixable problems that can just be solved easily.
You really can't imagine a non-zone mortalis style "continuous wall" tables that provide plentiful of LoS blocking and cover all over the table? Multi-level terrain with a lot of platforms and walkways, small terrain features, random debris, features hanging down from upper levels etc when dense enough provide so much los cut-off points, that it is usually just a partial angle or a narrow line of clear sight from any point on the table. You simply cannot play Necromunda on 40K style table, this game hasn't been designed for that. But it works like charm with proper table as is. Marksman just forces you to utilise Hide rule carefully, infrared sight don't work in overwatch and through solid walls and if it's so long into campaign, that there are BS6 gangers with infrareds, then there are most certainly other gangers with movement, infiltration and CC boosting skills to counter them.
And an ambush scenario is one of those campaign balancing mechanisms mentioned above and voluntary bottle out at second casaulty is a very valid way out of it. Nothing from this list of your needs "fixing". I have an impression, that you expect Necromunda to be ballanced with "standalone missions on minimal terrain setup" 40K-like approach in mind and not with "perpetual RPG-like campaign with a lot of against-all-odds missions in drastically differing conditions" it actually has been designed with.
Sure - and the battlefield you're describing has loads of fields of fire.
I've played plenty of long running Necromunda campaigns - and I know that the first few games before the nonsense sets in are the best games of any campaign.
Bottle out of ambush voluntarily? Sure, but at that point you have suffered at least 25% casualties - probably more. I've had a game where I've driven 45 minutes to get there, set up, rolled for scenario etc, been shot off the table turn 1, bottled out because it was hopeless and then driven back home without taking a turn (and I had the far superior gang - it would have been even more brutal if the random rolls at the start of the scenario had gone my way).
Vorian wrote: This is one of those silly things peddled around all the time. Unless you're playing on a table that has literal line of sight blocking (such as a zone mortalis table) then there's always plenty of shots to be had.
Playing on one of those tables is then a totally game which have their own downsides.
There is no reason why a table with plenty of cover providing terrain, which is basically what everybody is actually going to be playing on, can't give you a good game of Necromunda.
Stupid skills like marksman just need to not exist, BS 6 gangers with Infrared sights need not exist, charge ranges from one side of the board to another need not exist. The ambush scenario need not be decided on a few dice rolls at the start.
There are silly little fixable problems that can just be solved easily.
You really can't imagine a non-zone mortalis style "continuous wall" tables that provide plentiful of LoS blocking and cover all over the table? Multi-level terrain with a lot of platforms and walkways, small terrain features, random debris, features hanging down from upper levels etc when dense enough provide so much los cut-off points, that it is usually just a partial angle or a narrow line of clear sight from any point on the table. You simply cannot play Necromunda on 40K style table, this game hasn't been designed for that. But it works like charm with proper table as is. Marksman just forces you to utilise Hide rule carefully, infrared sight don't work in overwatch and through solid walls and if it's so long into campaign, that there are BS6 gangers with infrareds, then there are most certainly other gangers with movement, infiltration and CC boosting skills to counter them.
And an ambush scenario is one of those campaign balancing mechanisms mentioned above and voluntary bottle out at second casaulty is a very valid way out of it. Nothing from this list of your needs "fixing". I have an impression, that you expect Necromunda to be ballanced with "standalone missions on minimal terrain setup" 40K-like approach in mind and not with "perpetual RPG-like campaign with a lot of against-all-odds missions in drastically differing conditions" it actually has been designed with.
Sure - and the battlefield you're describing has loads of fields of fire.
I've played plenty of long running Necromunda campaigns - and I know that the first few games before the nonsense sets in are the best games of any campaign.
Bottle out of ambush voluntarily? Sure, but at that point you have suffered at least 25% casualties - probably more. I've had a game where I've driven 45 minutes to get there, set up, rolled for scenario etc, been shot off the table turn 1, bottled out because it was hopeless and then driven back home without taking a turn (and I had the far superior gang - it would have been even more brutal if the random rolls at the start of the scenario had gone my way).
It's a terrible scenario. End of story.
Fields of fire that can be sneaked between, run between, walked around hidden etc...
Voluntary bottle out can happen after second casaulty, not after 25%, and is probably second most common cause of end of game for me. But I see where our experiences and expectations differ - I play locally or even at home and I play a lot. Like 3-5 games a week when I'm playing a campaign and I don't mind quick bottle out ends and proceeding to next post battle/pre battle sequence.
A player may voluntarily fail a Bottle roll if he wishes
to do so. In which case there is no need to actually
take the test, it is assumed to automatically fail as the
gangers melt into the shadows and retreat. Note that
all the conditions for taking a Bottle roll (25%
causalities) still need to be met.
From NCE, so will be the same as the latest official rules
My bad, I didn't check in all three rulebooks (I have 1st ed physical and the rest only in digital form. I personally play by 1st ed). But it is still rarely on more than third model lost, unless you play "all juves I can buy" numerous but weak gang or have unusual luck to not permalost your gangers...
A player may voluntarily fail a Bottle roll if he wishes
to do so. In which case there is no need to actually
take the test, it is assumed to automatically fail as the
gangers melt into the shadows and retreat. Note that
all the conditions for taking a Bottle roll (25%
causalities) still need to be met.
From NCE, so will be the same as the latest official rules
I'm glad someone brought up the NCE. There have been efforts to better balance the rules, skills and equipment in the community edition. Is it perfect? No, but it reduces the disparity and tries to reel in the shenanigans and make bad skills viable. I for one would not like GW to remake Necromunda. I feel the Yaktribe community has done more to produce and harshly playtest the living ruleset. There are still things that need refining but they try and fix problems. If GW re-releases Necro they will just do a half-hearted job that is no where near what it should be. Necromunda is never going to be a serious game as it was a campaign system with a fighting ruleset, more like an rpg. Our old gaming group would allow collusion, bartering and intergang commerce in the post-battle sequence. I think GW would just do a one-off and chop out all the customization like others have said.
nou wrote: I second that question - why on earth every game has to be competetive? Necromunda clearly isn't one.
I can't even imagine why you'd have "competitive" Necromunda.
I mean sure, you could make a Delaque gang where everyone has Lasguns and Laspistols so you can mostly ignore ammo rolls, and then try to get Marksman and Infiltration on everyone... but where'd be the fun in that?
nou wrote: I simply pointed out, that your experience with unballanced scenarios might, just might be due to innapropriate handling of this game? I never had problems with brokenly one sided scenarios. Even basic Gang Fight is a brain-stretcher on a densely packed terrain. I can get gangs to CC, "all overwatch" isn't a viable strategy on my tables and since you can win games with fresh juves with hand flamers I don't realy see where this "necromunda needs heavy rebalance of scenarios because only Scavengers require anything other than shooting each other" is coming from...
I think you're reading too much into my "line up and shoot" comment. I was more getting at the point that Gang Fight is boring because you just kill one another.
*snore*
And most the scenarios are bad. Ambush can be fun but it's pretty one sided. And all the ones with limited forces, sentries and other random crap? Not interesting. Shootout was a scenario we played just to pass time waiting for other players to finish up their games.
I'm all for Newcromunda. i'm gonna be scared into preordering so I don't miss it like shadow war armageddon
Yes.
I must admit, a friend and I are just getting into Necromunda, so we're kinda waiting with a mix of baited breath and utter dread as to what will happen. It's not that I don't trust GW, it's just that I trust them to make an utter mess of things given half a chance. I'm not sure I could face a new edition. But we'll see what they have in store for us.
The three previous editions are all easily available, so just get stuck in. No need to play a new edition (which almost certainly isn't what's being announced in September) if you don't want to.
I was referring specifically to Jon Garret's "I'm not sure I could face a new edition". Personally I'm quite interested in a new edition. Not that there'll be one until about 2020, the rate things are going.
AndrewGPaul wrote: The three previous editions are all easily available, so just get stuck in. No need to play a new edition (which almost certainly isn't what's being announced in September) if you don't want to.
But, but, I'm not allowed to play any games that aren't new-release currently supported Games Workshop games.
AndrewGPaul wrote: The three previous editions are all easily available, so just get stuck in. No need to play a new edition (which almost certainly isn't what's being announced in September) if you don't want to.
But, but, I'm not allowed to play any games that aren't new-release currently supported Games Workshop games.
What? No one told me this!!! <hides multiple converted gangs and pretends he doesn't have a lot of fun playing Necromunda Community Edition>
ekwatts wrote: Necromunda isn't meant to be played competitively. It doesn't need to be super-balanced. Attempts to make it balanced will rob it of its charm.
That doesn't make sense. Fixing the stupid stuff doesn't stop any of the things that give it charm.
It stops the maddening aspects and gives you a more fun basis to hand your campaign on.
nou wrote: I second that question - why on earth every game has to be competetive? Necromunda clearly isn't one.
I can't even imagine why you'd have "competitive" Necromunda.
I mean sure, you could make a Delaque gang where everyone has Lasguns and Laspistols so you can mostly ignore ammo rolls, and then try to get Marksman and Infiltration on everyone... but where'd be the fun in that?
nou wrote: I simply pointed out, that your experience with unballanced scenarios might, just might be due to innapropriate handling of this game? I never had problems with brokenly one sided scenarios. Even basic Gang Fight is a brain-stretcher on a densely packed terrain. I can get gangs to CC, "all overwatch" isn't a viable strategy on my tables and since you can win games with fresh juves with hand flamers I don't realy see where this "necromunda needs heavy rebalance of scenarios because only Scavengers require anything other than shooting each other" is coming from...
I think you're reading too much into my "line up and shoot" comment. I was more getting at the point that Gang Fight is boring because you just kill one another.
*snore*
And most the scenarios are bad. Ambush can be fun but it's pretty one sided. And all the ones with limited forces, sentries and other random crap? Not interesting. Shootout was a scenario we played just to pass time waiting for other players to finish up their games.
For me Gang Fight isn't really about killing eachother but about turf war and capturing territory by inflicting 3:1 casaulty ratio. This usually won't happen spontaneously, especially when both players are prepared for what's coming and require a lot of focus. Some of my more chess-like necromunda games were "simple" Gang Fights and real brain stretchers. Hit&Run can be a lot of fun on a complex enough table so that attacker's goal isn't obvious from the start.
Vorian wrote:
ekwatts wrote: Necromunda isn't meant to be played competitively. It doesn't need to be super-balanced. Attempts to make it balanced will rob it of its charm.
That doesn't make sense. Fixing the stupid stuff doesn't stop any of the things that give it charm.
It stops the maddening aspects and gives you a more fun basis to hand your campaign on.
Perhaps for you it doesn't but I personally like playing against all odds very much and consider it fun and main aspect of Necromunda. I like trying to figure out how to manouver my gang to take out this well placed BS6 specialist or steal crushing victory by playing this last turn in a gambit just to down that second ganger and defend my territory. The harder the game the better and ballancing every aspect of Necromunda will strip me of natural opportunities of such strongly biased games and would require me to design such scenarios intentionally. If, in turn, it gets to easy for me to play because I have a strong gang I just try more suicidal "do or die" moves and keep the game challanging by inevitable permalosting. If someone has particularily deadly ganger I will put everything on one card and forfeit the goal of any mission just to assure his death or captivity. I don't feel any need whatsoever to "fix" necromunda because those uneven odds and unpredictability of outcome are what is most appealing to me. I don't even like many of the changes made in NCE (like Plasma Pistol just to name one of them). I get bored by "fair, ballanced games" because they tend to be solvable and dull in the long run and I like to play often. And in Necromunda unballanced aspects aren't cherry-pickable for deliberate abuse as is the case in 40K list building and you can easily land on both ends of the stick, so why should they be removed if they are not unanimously considered unfun by the whole community?
I have played in (and won!) Necromunda tournaments. It's good fun as a 2 day event, with starting gangs, no casualties and predefined advances and trading. You can be a lot more gung ho when you don't need to worry about being crippled.
But Necromunda truly lives and breathes in campaigns, terrifying imbalances and all.
Yes, I've taken part in a couple of one-day events, where the win condition was to have the greatest increase in gang rating.
In the first event, I won handily by legitimately rolling 3 Archaeotech Hoards as territories, rolling 18D6 x 10 for income before the last game and stocking up on gear. Something I would definitely never have done in a "proper" campaign.
@nou, it's far easier to introduce random story elements to unbalance stuff as you see fit than for everyone to agree fixes to an unbalanced mess. If you're at that point and you don't care about the game being a true game but more of a story event with some rules then the fact you're altering balanced rules makes no difference.
If, on the other hand, you are interested in watching your gang develop due to your own decisions - whilst also keeping it as a competitive game, then you require a solid ruleset. I want a campaign to develop naturally, not have it as a series of power level 9,000 super gangers unleashing their powers on each other or having to make stuff up outside the game to compensate.
Nowhere has it ever been written that Necromunda was intended to not be at its core, a fun game.
Vorian wrote: @nou, it's far easier to introduce random story elements to unbalance stuff as you see fit than for everyone to agree fixes to an unbalanced mess. If you're at that point and you don't care about the game being a true game but more of a story event with some rules then the fact you're altering balanced rules makes no difference.
If, on the other hand, you are interested in watching your gang develop due to your own decisions - whilst also keeping it as a competitive game, then you require a solid ruleset. I want a campaign to develop naturally, not have it as a series of power level 9,000 super gangers unleashing their powers on each other or having to make stuff up outside the game to compensate.
Nowhere has it ever been written that Necromunda was intended to not be at its core, a fun game.
Everything I wrote to you personally was intended to show you, that very definitions of fun vary wildly and what you consider unfun has a very strong community behind it. After all Necromunda has a 20 year old active community and no one is trying to do a rewrite in the spirit of what you are talking about. Instead we have popular Yaktribe and NCE that still have those "unfun mess" elements you're trying to convince everybody are unfun. Have you considered, that maybe, just maybe Necromunda isn't really what you seek after as it was never ever intended as a competetive game? And no, tight, competetively ballanced games do not make universally usefull base for any possible game-based fun. This is a very popular myth on Dakka but very untrue one...
Vorian wrote: @nou, it's far easier to introduce random story elements to unbalance stuff as you see fit than for everyone to agree fixes to an unbalanced mess. If you're at that point and you don't care about the game being a true game but more of a story event with some rules then the fact you're altering balanced rules makes no difference.
That's true for isolated, one-off games. You can't have a balanced campaign. If you have a balanced campaign, you may as well play a series of one-off games instead.
The very idea of a campaign is that there is something to be gained by winning, and if some gangs rise to the top while others don't, you just can't have balanced games anymore. You can still have fair and fun games, though, if the disparity is kept reasonable.
Vorian wrote: If, on the other hand, you are interested in watching your gang develop due to your own decisions - whilst also keeping it as a competitive game, then you require a solid ruleset. I want a campaign to develop naturally, not have it as a series of power level 9,000 super gangers unleashing their powers on each other or having to make stuff up outside the game to compensate.
Nowhere has it ever been written that Necromunda was intended to not be at its core, a fun game.
I'd argue Necromunda is right out of the box a solid ruleset and a fun game. Just not the most balanced one.
May I ask, what's not competitive about Necromunda? You don't get even match-ups. Is that your idea of "competitive"? That it's got to be even at all times or else it's an "unbalanced mess"?
I think competitive has crept in when it's not really what I'm talking about.
I want equipment costed correctly, rare trade that's actually worth taking, scenarios that aren't mostly luck dependant, skills tables that are mostly equal, no combinations which allow you to do stupid stuff like 48 charge ranges with a 2+ S test to make someone WS1
I would like the difference in gang strength to be 1:1.5 rather than 1:10
The game is most fun where everyone is a bit useless at the start, decisions matter, fun stuff happens. When I get to the point where M6 duel wielding hand flamers with Sprint and hip shooting are just waiting for stupid combinations to be unleashed on each other the campaign is pretty much done.
Vorian wrote: I think competitive has crept in when it's not really what I'm talking about.
I want equipment costed correctly, rare trade that's actually worth taking, scenarios that aren't mostly luck dependant, skills tables that are mostly equal, no combinations which allow you to do stupid stuff like 48 charge ranges with a 2+ S test to make someone WS1
I would like the difference in gang strength to be 1:1.5 rather than 1:10
The game is most fun where everyone is a bit useless at the start, decisions matter, fun stuff happens. When I get to the point where M6 duel wielding hand flamers with Sprint and hip shooting are just waiting for stupid combinations to be unleashed on each other the campaign is pretty much done.
Thanks for the reply. I can agree with all of that. It's just this talk of competitive Necromunda that confuses me in this discussion.
Vorian wrote: NCE is full of fixes to the unfun stuff. Not sure what you're on about. It's the only version I'll use, even if it's not perfect.
There is literally no sense to your argument. Like, at all.
"Stupid skills like marksman just need to not exist, BS 6 gangers with Infrared sights need not exist, charge ranges from one side of the board to another need not exist. The ambush scenario need not be decided on a few dice rolls at the start." - NCE still has all those things (and I don't know if your problem is with original or NCE Infra-red as those are vastly different) after a decade of community effort... I assume, that it is because they are not widely considered unfun.
And there is a lot of precise sense to my argument, it's simply not compatible with your mindset so you are having a hard time understanding what I'm saying... So let me rephrase it one last time, as we wandered from the topic of this thread for long enough - you seek ballance, competetiveness and as much skill-dependency in campaign progress as possible, as you seem to derive fun from measuring yourself against other players in a controlled environment. I derive fun from embracing the unexpected in a well defined but higly chaotic environment, as this tests (and trains) my rapid thinking abilities better. I can solve pretty much any ballanced game I encounter given enough time to analyse it and repetition to gain experience, so I actively seek those games which lack practical solvability, but are still skill-dependant. And to be crystal clear - there is a huuuuuge difference between practical unsolvability of a given game and it having no structure or definition (what you seem to believe is the only option when games aren't competetively ballanced). One of the fine examples of unsolvable but very well defined games is Bridge - the goal is to play every deal as optimal as possible, but you don't really test yourself against other players (outside of pre-designed deals on tournaments) or cannot solve random draw Bridge up-front and be certain that you'll win that evening or that this will be a "fair, ballanced evening when everybody will have equal opportunity to try and win a Grand Slam of Spades deal". Yet it is higly satisfying to know, that you can approach any hand and play it as optimal as it can be played because you're a great and skillfull Bridge player. To translate this onto Necromunda - I can accurately judge how optimal my game was no matter the odds at the start and I don't need to win to be happy about my performance if I did well.
ekwatts wrote: Necromunda isn't meant to be played competitively. It doesn't need to be super-balanced.
I agree. I hate this weird desire to make things "balanced" and "competitive" - which are normally just ways to say "a terrible player will have an equal chance to win against a good player".
Nou - and your way of fun is possible with a balanced ruleset and mine isn't.
You lose nothing by having a balanced ruleset and I do when unbalanced things are left in.
Let's take the Lascannon as an example.
Let's say it costs 400 credits. Let's also say it's "worth" 200.
@ 400
You may take it and say it's fun, roleplay, a challenge against a harder gang.
For me, that Lascannon no longer exists in the game.
@ 200
You can handicap yourself 200 points and say it's fun, roleplay, a challenge against a harder gang. It essentially makes no difference to you. You have lost nothing by it being the court cost.
For me I now have the option to try a new build.
It's not like this is a weird concept, people enjoy building gangs - that's why yaktribe is full of threads asking about gang composition.
ekwatts wrote: Necromunda isn't meant to be played competitively. It doesn't need to be super-balanced.
I agree. I hate this weird desire to make things "balanced" and "competitive" - which are normally just ways to say "a terrible player will have an equal chance to win against a good player".
That's nonsense. Highly luck dependant games mean terrible player will have an equal chance.
Poorly balanced games mean use the stupidly balanced stuff or die
Vorian wrote: Nou - and your way of fun is possible with a balanced ruleset and mine isn't.
You lose nothing by having a balanced ruleset and I do when unbalanced things are left in.
Let's take the Lascannon as an example.
Let's say it costs 400 credits. Let's also say it's "worth" 200.
@ 400
You may take it and say it's fun, roleplay, a challenge against a harder gang.
For me, that Lascannon no longer exists in the game.
@ 200
You can handicap yourself 200 points and say it's fun, roleplay, a challenge against a harder gang. It essentially makes no difference to you. You have lost nothing by it being the court cost.
For me I now have the option to try a new build.
It's not like this is a weird concept, people enjoy building gangs - that's why yaktribe is full of threads asking about gang composition.
ekwatts wrote: Necromunda isn't meant to be played competitively. It doesn't need to be super-balanced.
I agree. I hate this weird desire to make things "balanced" and "competitive" - which are normally just ways to say "a terrible player will have an equal chance to win against a good player".
That's nonsense. Highly luck dependant games mean terrible player will have an equal chance.
Poorly balanced games mean use the stupidly balanced stuff or die
Ok, since you jump from one "unballanced" example to another it is quite hard to follow what your exact point is... Lascannon cost isn't really unballanced and definately not in the same way skills/progress/campaign is. What both Autocannon and Lascannon are really doing in Necromunda is that their absolute overkill firepower give you board controll and ensure, that if you can hit the target it will be taken out of action (and under NCE have better odds of permanently kill a ganger). How much exactly is "nuclear deterrent" worth? And if your answer to this question is "not enough to justify 400pts" then your Necromunda is just smaller by one armoury entry. Not a big deal and definately doesn't scream "unballanced mess" to me...
As to your last point - Necromunda is both highly luck dependant (damage resolution and post battle sequence) and highly skill dependant (movement phase), with more emphasis on the latter. Terrible Necromunda player will statistically lose more often to a skilled player even when playing mirror gangs because movement, hiding, board controll and target priority matter a lot in this game. Unless you're playing on planet bowling ball of course... I agree, that by this virtue alone it could make for a great competetive ruleset if the rest of this system has been designed with ideal ballance in mind. But it is not the case of "only small fixes would be enough" but pretty much designing a completely different spin-off.
And I just tried to explain why "as ballanced as possible" systems strip me of my fun one post above, so I won't repeat myself. Just reread it again.
One last thing - I don't in any way claim, that your attitude or expectations from 'a' game aren't valid. Just that they aren't the only one possible. I have a bit of personal trigger about it and it just so happened that it focused on you in this particular thread. I don't have personal grudge with you or anything...
What the actual Lascannon is worth is immaterial (it's a huge waste but it was to just give an example).
By costing it correctly you cost the fluff players nothing and benefit those that actually want a fair game.
The point about luck was just that Judge was incorrect, balance in no way helps a terrible player compete with a good one. It's not really anything to do with the discussion.
You didn't explain anything. There is no disadvantage to a balanced ruleset, it doesn't matter if you play bridge or not.
And yes, people are claiming this view isn't valid. See every comment claiming that "Necromunda isn't meant to be balanced/competitive/etc" as if they are the arbiter of game ethos.
Sure, Necromunda should be a relaxed game, don't take it too seriously - but having all choices being viable isn't a bad thing
Vorian wrote: What the actual Lascannon is worth is immaterial (it's a huge waste but it was to just give an example).
By costing it correctly you cost the fluff players nothing and benefit those that actually want a fair game.
The point about luck was just that Judge was incorrect, balance in no way helps a terrible player compete with a good one. It's not really anything to do with the discussion.
You didn't explain anything. There is no disadvantage to a balanced ruleset, it doesn't matter if you play bridge or not.
And yes, people are claiming this view isn't valid. See every comment claiming that "Necromunda isn't meant to be balanced/competitive/etc" as if they are the arbiter of game ethos.
Sure, Necromunda should be a relaxed game, don't take it too seriously - but having all choices being viable isn't a bad thing
Ok, at this point I think I said enough already and further discussion on my part won't add anything new for you to chew on. Cheers!
I'm really looking forward to not being able to order my copy order on release day as it sells out in less than 7 minutes, then getting a barrage of rude comments (and people posting screenshots of how they got around the 'one per person' rule) because I dare voice my disappointment on GW facebook, and asking if they would be reprinting the game- especially as they had been advertising it for months as the 'next big thing'.
After all, it was so much fun with shadow war, I'm almost sure a new necromunda will follow the same trend!
RexHavoc wrote: I'm really looking forward to not being able to order my copy order on release day as it sells out in less than 7 minutes, then getting a barrage of rude comments (and people posting screenshots of how they got around the 'one per person' rule) because I dare voice my disappointment on GW facebook, and asking if they would be reprinting the game- especially as they had been advertising it for months as the 'next big thing'.
After all, it was so much fun with shadow war, I'm almost sure a new necromunda will follow the same trend!
To be fair, shadow wars was essentially a bundle for new scenery - Necromunda would be an ongoing game in the mould of BB.
AndrewGPaul wrote: Tony Cottrell said at Warhammer Fest that any new Necromunda probably wouldn't just be the same old rules.
Since you mentioned Tony Cottrell, from Warhammer Community:
On Thursday at 2:30 pm, we’ll be talking to White Dwarf editor Matt Keefe about the iconic official magazine of the hobby and what you can expect in next month’s issue – with loads of great new stuff to get your hands on, including painting guides, battle reports and more, you won’t want to miss your first look. At 4:00 pm we’ll be catching up with the Specialist Games Studio and Forge World, talking to Tony Cottrell about Blood Bowl and beyond.
Oh sure, I expect changes to the rules - I was more meaning it's not guaranteed that the combat rules will be changed because they are based on SW:A... because they have only just been republished there in the same form.
I'd be surprised if the core mechanics changed, but fully expect other changes (like marksman being gone, as it was in SW:A)
Silver Tower is a fun game, but it's not Warhammer Quest. It doesn't have any of the depth, longevity or replayability. I'd hate to see that done to Necromunda.
Silver Tower is a fun game, but it's not Warhammer Quest. It doesn't have any of the depth, longevity or replayability. I'd hate to see that done to Necromunda.
I love it, everyone can play it and it's fun enough for normal people.
In case anybody is feeling excited with the new rumours and fancies a few games, yaktribe, the Necromunda forum, is organising some campaign days. If anybody fancies it head on over and show some interest in this thread
https://yaktribe.org/community/threads/yakday-uk-2017.5412/page-19
Azreal13 wrote: Which doesn't contradict anything that HBMC said, and doesn't alter the fact that it isn't Warhammer Quest.
"Different" and "worse" aren't the same thing, as HBMC's comment implied.
And?
I mean, utterly self evident statement aside, what does what you've said add to the conversation? HBMC clearly feels that Silver Tower isn't as good as WHQ, that Silver Tower is still a fun game and "normal" people can enjoy it does not, in any way, contradict that.
If Necro were to receive the same level of "between game" evisceration of content and advancement it would likely be similarly a fun game that lacked something the original had in the same way.
The problem is that we live in the candy crush legacy era. Fast food in gaming version is what the mayority is after. I'll prefer a true campaing oriented necromunda, as the original. But, At the same time, I can understand if they want to tone it down
Mmh... 12 marks and 12 nails (Necromunda was released 12 years ago (without counting Confrontation). B50 is the classification number of hive worlds and the the symbol looks like a... "Necro-Aquila". It COULD be Necromunda, but I'll wait and see.
Write louder, I can't hear your post over here. I'm sitting here with my Necromunda box and in now way I'm ten years older than you and my passport say!
Dryaktylus wrote: Write louder, I can't hear your post over here. I'm sitting here with my Necromunda box and in now way I'm ten years older than you and my passport say!
Mmh... 12 marks and 12 nails (Necromunda was released 12 years ago (without counting Confrontation). B50 is the classification number of hive worlds and the the symbol looks like a... "Necro-Aquila". It COULD be Necromunda, but I'll wait and see.
12 is the legion for World Eaters and it's a skull.. As much as I wish this was Necro related I think it's hints at new 'zerkers..
Mmh... 12 marks and 12 nails (Necromunda was released 12 years ago (without counting Confrontation). B50 is the classification number of hive worlds and the the symbol looks like a... "Necro-Aquila". It COULD be Necromunda, but I'll wait and see.
12 is the legion for World Eaters and it's a skull.. As much as I wish this was Necro related I think it's hints at new 'zerkers..
That would have nothing to do with special games - which today's twitch basically confirmed that little video to be
Mmh... 12 marks and 12 nails (Necromunda was released 12 years ago (without counting Confrontation). B50 is the classification number of hive worlds and the the symbol looks like a... "Necro-Aquila". It COULD be Necromunda, but I'll wait and see.
12 is the legion for World Eaters and it's a skull.. As much as I wish this was Necro related I think it's hints at new 'zerkers..
That would have nothing to do with special games - which today's twitch basically confirmed that little video to be
Ah, my bad.. I didn't see that, just the following discussion. Well, it would be cool. Hey, maybe they're doing 12 gangs this time around or something?
Oh FFS, I already have a backlog of unpainted minis long enough to last me until retirement.
Looking forward to some plastic hive gangers. And if they only do a limited number of plastic kits, then hopefully they'll also do Resin upgrade kits to customize and add variety like they're doing with Bloodbowl.
Someone in the rumor engine thread pointed out that when the coordinates are read backward, it reads "30/9/87", and WD features a section on 30 years of 40k.
I'm already jazzed for the potential return of Necromunda. Not so much for new figs (I've got several large finished gangs) but for a potential influx of new players.
url=https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/03/incoming-transmission-b50-ap78903mh-aug-3gw-homepage-post-4/]Necromunda video[/url] or something else.
Just want to point something. The numbers match the weapon sprue of old squats,
Squats return to 40k .
I'm not holding out hope for Squats as I have an army I've been slowly building for years with no expectation of any kind of reintroduction, but it'd sure be nice. I've been out of 40k for several editions now but if Squats came back, I would be completely unable to resist playing 40k again.
Eilif wrote: I'm already jazzed for the potential return of Necromunda. Not so much for new figs (I've got several large finished gangs) but for a potential influx of new players.
url=https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/03/incoming-transmission-b50-ap78903mh-aug-3gw-homepage-post-4/]Necromunda video[/url] or something else.
Just want to point something. The numbers match the weapon sprue of old squats,
Squats return to 40k .
I'm not holding out hope for Squats as I have an army I've been slowly building for years with no expectation of any kind of reintroduction, but it'd sure be nice. I've been out of 40k for several editions now but if Squats came back, I would be completely unable to resist playing 40k again.
Well with the scale increase in models over the last few years you could field old marines as squats soon
Well with the scale increase in models over the last few years you could field old marines as squats soon
Ha! I'll stick with my 60+ vintage squats. It does make one think though. if new ones were the same ridiculous size as those GW steampunk dwarves perhaps I'll have to run mine as Space Gnomes?
Well with the scale increase in models over the last few years you could field old marines as squats soon
Ha! I'll stick with my 60+ vintage squats. It does make one think though. if new ones were the same ridiculous size as those GW steampunk dwarves perhaps I'll have to run mine as Space Gnomes?
Put static grass on their feet and make them space hobbits .
Bringing back Squats as the 30th anniversary of 40k thing would be fething mental. It'd fit with the industrial thing with the banging and the sparks, too. I'm sold
Hmm, yeah. I get that they're a big touchstone for some folk, but for my part I'd really rather they didn't bring back Squats. They've always seemed faintly ridiculous to me even by the standards of 40K.
Short crystalline Xenos guys? Yeah OK Demiurg I could get behind, but the "WHFB Dwarfs, except in 40K and also bikers for some reason" version just makes me cringe. They're the Dad Jokes of 40K armies.
I doubt they'd be a straight redo of the 80s version. Look at Genestealer cults, they did a decent update there with the mining gear rather than limousines. We're talking about bringing back Squats though so I mean, I probably shouldn't be trying to defend it.
Bull0 wrote: I doubt they'd be a straight redo of the 80s version. Look at Genestealer cults, they did a decent update there with the mining gear rather than limousines. We're talking about bringing back Squats though so I mean, I probably shouldn't be trying to defend it.
That's true, but overall, the genestealer cults are actually rather consistent (albeit with style and size updates and no limos) with the look and fluff of the original Genestealers.
I personally doubt we'll see squats, though I'll continue to run them as IG in Shadow War.
Davor wrote: What is Necromunda exactly? A role playing game or just a skirmish game? Never played it but keep reading how a lot of people use to love playing it.
It was a GW game that was fun and didn't break the bank.
Davor wrote: What is Necromunda exactly? A role playing game or just a skirmish game? Never played it but keep reading how a lot of people use to love playing it.
It was a GW game that was fun and didn't break the bank.
It was doomed.
I have not bought any GW to speak of in six years or more - aside from one bottle of liquid greenstuff that I needed for a commission.
But if GW ever wants me back as a customer, all they have to do is release new versions of Necromunda or Mordheim (assuming that it is Mordheim, and not AoS.... If it is AoSified, I will go on ignoring GW....)
I have run and played more Necromunda and Mordheim - each - than all the rest of the GW games put together.
Davor wrote: What is Necromunda exactly? A role playing game or just a skirmish game? Never played it but keep reading how a lot of people use to love playing it.
It was a GW game that was fun and didn't break the bank.
It was doomed.
Neither does Bloodbowl but they still brought it back.
Bringing back Squats as the 30th anniversary of 40k thing would be fething mental. It'd fit with the industrial thing with the banging and the sparks, too. I'm sold
If you want to go deep through the looking glass, that skull/Aquila could represent the Squat affiliation to the Empire combined with the veneration of their ancestors..
Bringing back Squats as the 30th anniversary of 40k thing would be fething mental. It'd fit with the industrial thing with the banging and the sparks, too. I'm sold
It's in spanish, and didn't want to translate all the text, but here we go:
RTB7 Imperial Guard had a weapon sprue with 5 lasguns, 2 laspistols and a lascannon. RTB10 Space Dwarfs had a sprue with 5 lasguns, 2 laspistols and a heavy bolter.
I've reassemled alot of squats from various pieces and I think the Squat and human arm sprues are relatively cross compatible. I think my squats have parts from both but I don't know that I ever had both types complete intact sprues to compare.
The weapons sprues are identical except for the included heavy weapon.
Here's some sprue pics, also courtesy of SoL.
Squats
Wasn't 1989 the point when Necroumda first appeared? I remember an early version of the game being in the first White Dwarf I even bought and that was about then...
Flashman wrote: Wasn't 1989 the point when Necroumda first appeared? I remember an early version of the game being in the first White Dwarf I even bought and that was about then...
Flashman wrote: Wasn't 1989 the point when Necroumda first appeared? I remember an early version of the game being in the first White Dwarf I even bought and that was about then...
Before Necromunda there was Confrontation, which I believe was just some White Dwarf rules and a couple of concept models. That might be what you're thinking of.
The game didn't appear as Necromunda until much later than 1989.
Flashman wrote: Wasn't 1989 the point when Necroumda first appeared? I remember an early version of the game being in the first White Dwarf I even bought and that was about then...
Before Necromunda there was Confrontation, which I believe was just some White Dwarf rules and a couple of concept models. That might be what you're thinking of.
The game didn't appear as Necromunda until much later than 1989.
Ah yes... that would explain why my Google searches are coming up blank. It was indeed Confrontation I was thinking of.
Before Necromunda there was Confrontation, which I believe was just some White Dwarf rules and a couple of concept models.
Not only rules but also a lot of fluff. The model range was quite impressive for a non-boxed game (most of the Citadel models were really nice, especially the Scavvies - those from Marauder not so much...).
It's not "legit", in that whoever posted those online isn't the copyright holder, but it certainly looks like the background and rules (less the pictures) originally published in WD 130-142 (October 1990 - Oct 1991). Necromunda was released in 1995.
AndrewGPaul wrote: It's not "legit", in that whoever posted those online isn't the copyright holder, but it certainly looks like the background and rules (less the pictures) originally published in WD 130-142 (October 1990 - Oct 1991). Necromunda was released in 1995.
Yup. It's predecessor was the Judge Dredd game put out by GW...(circa 1985) then it was Confrontation (in WD only) early 1990s....finally becoming Necromunda.
It’s been more than a decade since we last visited the Underhive, but very soon you’ll be able to battle it out in the depths of Hive Primus.
If you’re new to the hobby, you may not be familiar with Necromunda – or perhaps you’ve only heard about it from the fond memories of other hobbyists. Necromunda dives into the underworld of the Imperium, allowing players to control their own Hive Gang – a pack of ruthless criminal killers augmented with black-market cybernetics, gene modifications and scavenged weaponry. Where Warhammer 40,000 puts you at the head of an army, in Necromunda, the scale is much smaller but the action is just as intense – every single Ganger counts.
Between intense skirmish battles, your gang will grow from a pack of battle-hungry Juves to a feared and respected syndicate of hardened veterans. To get there, however, you’ll have to battle against your fellow players, each with a gang of their own.
The Underhive is a big place, and the gangs that inhabit it are as diverse as the alien races that inhabit the 41st Millennium. We’re launching Necromunda with two classics.
Gangs from House Escher are fast, deadly, and cruel. While lightly armoured, these cunning warrior women hold their own in melee combat, while at range, they are notorious for their use of armour-melting plasma weaponry.
The gangers of House Goliath are a living testament to brawn over brains. Every member of House Goliath is a slab of vat-grown muscle, armed and armoured with repurposed industrial gear.
What makes these miniatures even better is that they’ll be available in multi-part, plastic kits – so easy to assemble, customise and paint into a gang of your own.
Keep your eyes on Warhammer Community for all the latest news and previews.
And now they got me a little worried, when they said that new Necromunda won't just be Shadow War expansion and will be a different game altogether... Different, modernized core rules?
A shame that when you are a big multinational you can't troll your clients. Unless you are Wendy's Twitter account.
