So, I read the Dark imperium and how awkward and disappointed Gulliman felt about his meeting with the emperor. It got me thinking, does Gulliman know that the golden throne is failing, and if he does, will we see plans on how he intends to confront this issue?
I know he has a lot on his plate, but would he really allow the golden throne to fail without doing everything he can to preserve it? What about Cawl, could he offer some insight on how to fix the machine?
I'm really curious to see how and if GW approaches this topic.
jhe90 wrote: If the eldar who brought him back to life was with them. Surely he could of just got the big E jump started back online again/
even if the Ynnari COULD ressurect the Emperor, WOULD THEY, Gulliman is a logical pragmatic man, a good choice to run the IoM and fight back chaos. the Emperor however is a whole differant kettle of fish. even Gulliman is like to have unintended ripple effects, the Emperor? jesus I can't even begin to imagine the implications
jhe90 wrote: If the eldar who brought him back to life was with them. Surely he could of just got the big E jump started back online again/
even if the Ynnari COULD ressurect the Emperor, WOULD THEY, Gulliman is a logical pragmatic man, a good choice to run the IoM and fight back chaos. the Emperor however is a whole differant kettle of fish. even Gulliman is like to have unintended ripple effects, the Emperor? jesus I can't even begin to imagine the implications
Guilliman is a pawn. Resurrected to further the cause of the Ynnari, not because they wanted to do the IoM a favour.
They wouldn't resurrect the Emperor even if they could. They want the Imperium just strong enough so that it can stalemate Chaos while the Eldar sit back and watch.
I think people forget that the Eldar are not on the Imperium's side. The Imperium has destroyed just as many Craftworlds as Chaos. Moreso if the Eldar don't differentiate between regular humans and chaotic ones.
Granted at this time, given Guilliman's feelings about the Emperor, it is doubtful Guilliman would want the Emperor resurrected either. All his dreams of fatherly love from the Emperor seem to have been shattered, even though he still seems to fight for the dream of a better humanity and better Imperium.
In the end, all Eldar view themselves as the only real people. All other races are treated like animals. Maybe dangerous, amusing or useful animals, but still not as people deserving of the same level of respect or attention. Eldar who for whatever reason are sympathetic to other races could be viewed as animal lovers or activists. They are sympathetic and nice to animals, who are still not people, and if push came to shove, would still side with people (i.e. Eldar) albeit perhaps with some regret. Think of how for example animals are euthanized if they have already hurt people. Most animal lovers would still accept that as a regrettable but necessary move. The Eldar causing such events for other races, in order to preserve their own, could be likened to how today animals are culled in order to prevent the spread of disease. From the perspective of the animals, it is horrific and evil. From the perspective of the humans, it may be a regrettable, unfortunate, cruel but still necessary act.
Part of the reason for their views aside from that of culture, is the biological difference between them and others. They move faster, think faster, and have greater memories than humans (as per Path of the Eldar, they have almost eidetic memories). They live much longer and all have psychic potential (the Dark Eldar have theirs blunted and undeveloped but it is still there as per Valedor). So to their eyes, non-Eldar are short-lived, slow, clumsy and slow-witted. It's hard to strike up a relationship as equals with a human, if that human will grow old, become senile and demented, and die in a tenth or less of your own natural lifespan. Turn around, do your Path thing for a few decades, and come back to find the human already dead. Yes life extension treatments are possible in the Imperium for humans but this is for the elite and powerful, and even then they still age or look "plastic"/unnatural (like Inquisitor Kryptman), while an Eldar can live for a thousand years naturally. A single Eldar can live through many generations humans, so their ability to really form any kind of emotional bond or friendship (as equals) with a human may be limited by the differences in viewpoint due to their lifespan. Imagine trying to form a long term relationship with a pet rat.
Now whether they would form any relationship over time with a naturally long-lived Primarch...Maybe though it would still probably be a wary mutually beneficial relationship of alliance and maybe respect. Respect however does not equate to the same as friendship. Nations can respect each other even as they compete against each other.
Ratius wrote: The Emperor, as a wise man once said, is a d**k.
That seems to be Guilliman's view in Dark Imperium now as he has realized that the Emperor's behavior during the Great Crusade was at best an act, one which the Emperor is no longer bothering with (or capable of keeping up). His reaction to Guilliman's return was in Guilliman's own internal thoughts was not that of a father greeting a son but more like that of a caged prisoner finding out a rasp has been handed to him, with Guilliman being the tool.
While the story is likely going to be significantly changed, as it stands in Bill King's story of the fight between Horus and the Emperor the Emperor forces all compassion from himself in order to destroy Horus. Could be that the Emperor did in fact permanently (or at least for a very long time) sever himself from his compassion and is a very different person to who he was.
Its also possible if not likely that the 10,000 years of being imprisoned with agony and unimaginable strain kept going only by an all-you-can-eat psyker buffet may have drained his human side somewhat.
jhe90 wrote: If the eldar who brought him back to life was with them. Surely he could of just got the big E jump started back online again/
even if the Ynnari COULD ressurect the Emperor, WOULD THEY, Gulliman is a logical pragmatic man, a good choice to run the IoM and fight back chaos. the Emperor however is a whole differant kettle of fish. even Gulliman is like to have unintended ripple effects, the Emperor? jesus I can't even begin to imagine the implications
Guilliman is a pawn. Resurrected to further the cause of the Ynnari, not because they wanted to do the IoM a favour.
They wouldn't resurrect the Emperor even if they could. They want the Imperium just strong enough so that it can stalemate Chaos while the Eldar sit back and watch.
I think people forget that the Eldar are not on the Imperium's side. The Imperium has destroyed just as many Craftworlds as Chaos. Moreso if the Eldar don't differentiate between regular humans and chaotic ones.
I think the eldar would like to see chaos defeated but you're right they don't want the IoM too strong.
I see their bringing Gulliman back as a calculated risk,Gulliman gives the IoM a shot in the arm, but at the same time it's needed. still if Gulliman turns out to be TOO effective it could make life harder for the Ynnari, that said, from what little we've seen there DOES seem to be some genuine friendship between Gulliman and Yrvine.
The brutality and ignorance of mankind appalls the Eldar, whilst the aloof arrogance of the Eldar race has never fostered the trust of the Adeptus of Earth.
p. 5, 2nd edition Eldar Codex
Guilliman's long life gives him more of a long term perspective on things and his realm of Ultramar is less brutal than most of the rest of the Imperium. He is also more pragmatic and willing to consider cooperation in the name of mutual interests, in contrast to that Deathwatch marine in Death Masque that basically prefers to shoot the Harlequin and have the Imperium go down the tubes by itself rather than prevail over Chaos in cooperation with the alien. While certainly there may have been some Inquisitors and other Imperials that may have been similar in mindset, no other individual has had Primarch level power and influence to steer the Imperium (or at least that part of the Imperium where Guilliman is at any given moment).
The Eldar are pursuing their own interests, sure, but often times these interests do coincide with humanity's, even if they prefer to use humans as the meat shields. I am not arguing the Eldar are "good guys" but it is certainly far more possible for humanity to work with them against all the greater threats in the galaxy. The problem is GW has the Imperium accuse the Eldar of being treacherous when often it is the idiocy of the Imperium that made things worse in the plot. The first Dawn of War is a case in point, but GW has similar plot templates. The Eldar are doing something. The humans interfere. The Eldar tell the humans not to meddle with things as there is Chaos and daemons involved. The humans/Marines don't listen and drive off the Eldar. They meddle with things and release the daemon, then go "Curse you perfidious Eldar! You tricked me!" The Eldar go Is it any wonder the Eldar think humans can't handle the truth?
Absolutely right both of you, but I still think that the repetitive 'Eldar to the rescue' narrative is symptomatic of the gradual 'niceification' of 40k and doesn't really fit with what else we're told about them. Not to mention lazy writing.
Yes manipulating the Imperium to be strong enough to match the Chaos threat is right up their street. I'd stil llike to see some more narrative about the manipulation going the other way though. Just to reinforce the 'Eldar are fickle, do not trust them' thing.
As an example of why I don't think it's possible in the slightest for the Eldar to have a bonafide alliance with the Imperium, here's a list of craftworlds destroyed by each faction:
Craftworlds destroyed by Chaos:
1. Muirgaythh
2. Kher-Ys
3. Ila-Manesh (destroyed by Night Lords)
4. Lu'Nasad
Craftworlds destroyed by the Imperium
1. Idharae
2. Mor-rioh'i
3. Thuyelsa
4. Tuonoetar
So 4 craftworlds apiece destroyed (5 by the hands of humans). The Eldar are categorically not a faction that is prone to 'forgive and forget' when it comes to killing even dozens of Eldar, let alone the millions upon millions of Eldar (not to mention the souls in the Infinity circuit) on a Craftworld.
By that token, the Eldar should hate the Imperium. Hate as only an Eldar with their heightened emotions can hate.
Would you trust their intentions if they came up to you asking politely if you'd like an alliance?
Then in any conflict or issue, one of the sides cannot be Chaos. Whenever it gets to be Chaos, the Eldar will automatically side against it because Chaos poses an existential threat to the Eldar species and their souls. Maybe it couldn't be Necrons either given their history. In any such conflicts, the Eldar would almost be invariably be cast in the role of the saviors or helping the Imperium (or whoever else is fighting Chaos/Necrons).
If instead it were a conflict between other forces, then you can have the Eldar be manipulators. Such as for example Imperium vs. Tau. The Eldar might intervene on both sides for their own reasons and because Craftworlds might have differing visions of what would be best for their own particular Craftworld. Iyanden might want the Tau to win in order to remain a strong buffer state against further Tyranid fleets. Eldrad seems to have been personally sympathetic towards the Tau so he might persuade Ulthwe to support the Tau as well. Maybe Biel-tan wants the Tau taken down a peg as yet another upstart usurper empire. Perhaps Alaitoc wants both sides to fight to mutual exhaustion and maintain the status quo. Of course, in the midst of all this, the Dark Eldar might raid in order to harvest slaves.
In such a situation, the Imperium might well call the Eldar treacherous because to the vast majority of humans, with their closed minds, the Eldar factions are meaningless distinctions and the proper response is to shoot them all.
jhe90 wrote: If the eldar who brought him back to life was with them. Surely he could of just got the big E jump started back online again/
even if the Ynnari COULD ressurect the Emperor, WOULD THEY, Gulliman is a logical pragmatic man, a good choice to run the IoM and fight back chaos. the Emperor however is a whole differant kettle of fish. even Gulliman is like to have unintended ripple effects, the Emperor? jesus I can't even begin to imagine the implications
Guilliman is a pawn. Resurrected to further the cause of the Ynnari, not because they wanted to do the IoM a favour.
They wouldn't resurrect the Emperor even if they could. They want the Imperium just strong enough so that it can stalemate Chaos while the Eldar sit back and watch.
I think people forget that the Eldar are not on the Imperium's side. The Imperium has destroyed just as many Craftworlds as Chaos. Moreso if the Eldar don't differentiate between regular humans and chaotic ones.
This
How did the quote go again? "Make no mistake human, We do not fight for your Emperor. We fight against Horus."
Iracundus wrote: Then in any conflict or issue, one of the sides cannot be Chaos. Whenever it gets to be Chaos, the Eldar will automatically side against it because Chaos poses an existential threat to the Eldar species and their souls. Maybe it couldn't be Necrons either given their history. In any such conflicts, the Eldar would almost be invariably be cast in the role of the saviors or helping the Imperium (or whoever else is fighting Chaos/Necrons).
If instead it were a conflict between other forces, then you can have the Eldar be manipulators. Such as for example Imperium vs. Tau. The Eldar might intervene on both sides for their own reasons and because Craftworlds might have differing visions of what would be best for their own particular Craftworld. Iyanden might want the Tau to win in order to remain a strong buffer state against further Tyranid fleets. Eldrad seems to have been personally sympathetic towards the Tau so he might persuade Ulthwe to support the Tau as well. Maybe Biel-tan wants the Tau taken down a peg as yet another upstart usurper empire. Perhaps Alaitoc wants both sides to fight to mutual exhaustion and maintain the status quo. Of course, in the midst of all this, the Dark Eldar might raid in order to harvest slaves.
In such a situation, the Imperium might well call the Eldar treacherous because to the vast majority of humans, with their closed minds, the Eldar factions are meaningless distinctions and the proper response is to shoot them all.
Perhaps, but I don't think it's realistic to have the Eldar automatically siding against Chaos when the Imperium has been every bit as destructive to the Eldar species as Chaos has. Chaos isn't a greater enemy, they're both the same.
I understand the existential threat thing, but dead's dead. If the Imperium destroys a craftworld the exact same thing happens as when a Slaaneshi daemon does. That should be, form the perspective of the Eldar, unforgivable. Yet for some reason they're portrayed as more on the side of the Imperium, which is symptomatic of a rather tedious shift towards 'black and white goodies and baddies' rather than the shades of grey that 40k should be like. How accurate that perceived shift actually is I'm not sure...
Guilliman is a pawn. Resurrected to further the cause of the Ynnari, not because they wanted to do the IoM a favour.
They wouldn't resurrect the Emperor even if they could. They want the Imperium just strong enough so that it can stalemate Chaos while the Eldar sit back and watch.
I think people forget that the Eldar are not on the Imperium's side. The Imperium has destroyed just as many Craftworlds as Chaos. Moreso if the Eldar don't differentiate between regular humans and chaotic ones.
This
How did the quote go again? "Make no mistake human, We do not fight for your Emperor. We fight against Horus."
Trust not in their appearance, for the Eldar are as alien to good, honest men as the vile Tyranids and savage Orks. - Imperial Commander Abriel Hume
The Imperium is the lesser enemy for the Eldar than Chaos. Slaaneshi forces and daemons actively hunt down Eldar spirit stones in order to devour them and the souls within them. By contrast, the Imperium's armed forces are ignorant about the significance of the spirit stones. The Eldar can recover the souls of their dead or from shattered derelict ships or even craftworlds. They cannot do such a thing when against Slaaneshi forces.
The Eldar view humans the way humans view Orks. Crude, brutish, dangerous, ignorant. However Chaos and especially Slaanesh for the Eldar is malevolent and knows all too much. Chaos mortal forces might potentially be ignorant, but any Slaaneshi daemons would not.
I understand the existential threat thing, but dead's dead. If the Imperium destroys a craftworld the exact same thing happens as when a Slaaneshi daemon does. That should be, form the perspective of the Eldar, unforgivable. Yet for some reason they're portrayed as more on the side of the Imperium, which is symptomatic of a rather tedious shift towards 'black and white goodies and baddies' rather than the shades of grey that 40k should be like. How accurate that perceived shift actually is I'm not sure...
Fluff has always fluctuated over the years. The WD127 through to the 2nd edition codex probably represented the peak of perceiving the Eldar as "nice". Their portrayal since then has varied depending on the author and the stance of the studio at the time but has always made clear that the Eldar are ultimately serving their own agenda. Sometimes this may coincidentally involve helping humanity but I don't think any of them like it.
If they thought resurrecting the Emperor would help them, perhaps they would try but could they actually do it? It has been hinted in the fluff before that simply unplugging the Golden Throne and letting the Emperor die would free his soul from the schackles of his corpse and allow him to reincarnate. The big problem is that this would have dire consequences for the Imperium. Firstly the Astronomicon would go out which is the only thing holding the Imperium together. Secondly the Adeptus Astra Telepathica would cease to exist without the soul-binding that allows them to send and receive messages through the Warp without accidentally downloading a daemon the next time they try to open a psychic email. Lastly, Daemons would flood Terra itself through the Webway portal that Magnus wrecked. So the rebirth of the Emperor would effectively destroy the Imperium as it would wreck its ability to communicate and travel. Also Terra would likely become a daemon-world which could possibly also threaten the safety of Mars, the heart of the Imperium's industry.
Unfortunately, while it is personally unpleasant, the Emperor is exactly where he needs to be most. He is holding back the breach in the dyke and if he moves, Chaos will flood in and destroy everything. Even if he reincarnated, what could he effectively do to restore the Imperium? The Great Crusade was the culmination of millennia of preparations, he would have to start again from scratch and some of what he did could possibly never be replicated. It is hinted that he bargained/stole power from the Chaos Gods to create the Primarchs (although the Daemon who implied this to Argel Tal is probably not the most reliable source).
Guilliman is holding the Imperium together but I don't think that even he believes things will get better. It is just not in his nature to give up an accept the extinction of his species. The only hope for the future is the extremely long-term possibility that humanity may be able to achieve its evolution into a psychically-mature race. This was always the long-term back story between the Emperor and Chaos. It is possible that some of the individuals in the HH novels such as Malcador and the Perpetuals are early examples of what humans could become. Psychically powerful and and at little risk from daemons. However the fact that such individuals seem to have vanished by the 41st millennium suggests that this early flowering of psychic humans were killed off by the frost of the Horus Heresy.
There can be no evolution of humanity into a more psychically powerful or mature race if those that are actually psychically skilled never produce children. The Imperium's policies make being a psyker disadvantageous to say the least, and this actively selects against being psychic. If you are a psyker, you are either condemned to be killed as a witch, consumed by the Emperor, or made to serve the Imperium under a cloud of suspicion meaning you will likely never have children. Even psychically active Inquisitors seem to spend their lives devoted to duty and have little time for raising a family. I'm sure in a vast galaxy there may be exceptions, but they are rare enough to the point of being insignificant.
This is what's gonna happen.
Golden throne blue screens
Emp dies
Portal in the basement rips the palace a new gak hole
Emp steps out of the portal and closes it
Smashes the golden throne became Magnus already broke it
Becomes the living astronomicon
Yells at custodies for not lulling his plug sooner he is the emp a perpetual
Gets rid of the eclesiarchy
Yells at rowboat for his stupid codex idea
Iracundus wrote: The Imperium is the lesser enemy for the Eldar than Chaos. Slaaneshi forces and daemons actively hunt down Eldar spirit stones in order to devour them and the souls within them. By contrast, the Imperium's armed forces are ignorant about the significance of the spirit stones. The Eldar can recover the souls of their dead or from shattered derelict ships or even craftworlds. They cannot do such a thing when against Slaaneshi forces.
The Eldar view humans the way humans view Orks. Crude, brutish, dangerous, ignorant. However Chaos and especially Slaanesh for the Eldar is malevolent and knows all too much. Chaos mortal forces might potentially be ignorant, but any Slaaneshi daemons would not.
True, although the point I was more trying to make is that the Eldar are categorically not the allies of the Imperium. They hate the Imperium. It's just convenient to them to play at being allies so they can smash the Imperium into the face of Chaos and stave off their own deaths a little longer.
Iracundus wrote: There can be no evolution of humanity into a more psychically powerful or mature race if those that are actually psychically skilled never produce children. The Imperium's policies make being a psyker disadvantageous to say the least, and this actively selects against being psychic. If you are a psyker, you are either condemned to be killed as a witch, consumed by the Emperor, or made to serve the Imperium under a cloud of suspicion meaning you will likely never have children. Even psychically active Inquisitors seem to spend their lives devoted to duty and have little time for raising a family. I'm sure in a vast galaxy there may be exceptions, but they are rare enough to the point of being insignificant.
This.
Backspacehacker wrote: This is what's gonna happen.
Golden throne blue screens
Emp dies
Portal in the basement rips the palace a new gak hole
Emp steps out of the portal and closes it
Smashes the golden throne became Magnus already broke it
Becomes the living astronomicon
Yells at custodies for not lulling his plug sooner he is the emp a perpetual
Gets rid of the eclesiarchy
Yells at rowboat for his stupid codex idea
Or:
Golden throne blue screens
Emp dies
Portal in basement rips the palace a new gak hole
Radicals wait...
...
Radicals wait...
...
...
Any moment now...
...
...
...
Sh*t...
...
It's been said that the primarchs all got a part of the Emp's powers and a trait of his personality... if Vulkhan is a perpetual wouldn't that automatically mean that the Emp is as well?
Backspacehacker wrote: This is what's gonna happen.
Golden throne blue screens
Emp dies
Portal in the basement rips the palace a new gak hole
Emp steps out of the portal and closes it
Smashes the golden throne became Magnus already broke it
Becomes the living astronomicon
Yells at custodies for not lulling his plug sooner he is the emp a perpetual
Gets rid of the eclesiarchy
Yells at rowboat for his stupid codex idea
Backspacehacker wrote: This is what's gonna happen.
Golden throne blue screens
Emp dies
Portal in the basement rips the palace a new gak hole
Emp steps out of the portal and closes it
Smashes the golden throne became Magnus already broke it
Becomes the living astronomicon
Yells at custodies for not lulling his plug sooner he is the emp a perpetual
Gets rid of the eclesiarchy
Yells at rowboat for his stupid codex idea
Except the codex was a good idea so...
people love to bash on the Codex but you need to ask, what would have happened if Huron had been, instead of Master of the Astral Claws CHAPTER, Master of the Ultramarines LEGION?
I don't get what Gulliman was so disappointed about. He was well and alive after the Emperor was transferred to the golden throne. He was alive for many many years after that before he went into stasis from the wound he received. The emperor is still there in his barely alive state on the golden throne even after 10,000 years. What has changed to make him feel any different?
Gulliman should be perfectly clear and aware of the state of the Emperor even before he went into stasis.
Neither GW nor any in-universe characters could allow the Astronomican to fail. That includes the Emperor and the throne, I can't imagine that GW would change this aspect of the Imperium.
I think time has changed the Emperor. He's spent thousands of years with all his sons either evil, missing or dead. He's spent that time watching the souls of his people burned to keep him alive. He's watched himself be turned into everything he hates, and he can't alter much because every option he has is worse. If he does die, his Perpetual nature will likely bring him back...but there will be a delay. Terra may well fall, and his corpse fall into the hands of Chaos itself. I suspect the Big Four would like a word while he's weak for that whole 'being made to run like choir boys from a rampant priest' when the Emperor snuffed Horus.
What;s left on the Golden Throne probably has very little left of whatever made the Emperor human, and even less since Rowboat got himself frozen. I haven't read the story, so take this with a massive dollop of salt, but poor Rowboat may had the same realization that many kids have after going back home after a long spell - that dear old Dad has lost his marbles and is probably a danger to himself and others now.
Equally, he might not be trying to fix the Throne for two reasons - one, he doesn't want to prolong the Emperor's suffering any more than anyone else wants to see an aged parent continue to suffer in there dotage (but equally can't pull the plug himself) and, secondly, he probably thinks enough of himself that he can deal with things once the Throne fails. He's a pretty arrogant guy, after all.
As for the Eldar...I think they would bring back the Emperor, but with three conditions.
1 - He isn't insane to a point where he'll be worse than Chaos.
2 - He can destroy Chaos and still be kept in check with problems such as the Orcs and Tyranids. They likely can barely afford a Primarch whose busy with Chaos eyeing up there resources.
3 - It won't destroy the Imperium in a way that would be bad for the Eldar. As much as they don't like the Mon-Keighs, they act as a buffer against every other threat out there. A slow implosion the Eldar can take advantage of - great. An instant shattering, on the other hand...
Gulliman should be perfectly clear and aware of the state of the Emperor even before he went into stasis.
Perhaps the Emperor has continued to deteriorate mentally whilst on the throne (his body can't really get much worse). The book comments that the Emperor had lost his subtlety, his ability to express himself in human terms. People have commented that the HH series portrays the Emperor as not exactly a nice guy. The point is he is not really human. He is a massively powerful psychic gestalt wearing a human body. I think that 10,000 has stripped away the last of his humanity and left the Emperor a raw mass of psychic power.
Guilliman regrets that loss and also the state that the Imperium has degenerated into since his entombment. Instead of a progressive, secular society, the Imperium has been plunged into a dark age of fear, war and superstition. It has become everything he was fighting to move beyond during the Great Crusade.
The Emperor has not had to practice acting human for 10,000 years. He must be rusty.
Guilliman may not be able to figure out the Throne. In Dark Imperium he reflected that the Emperor's sword "resisted Guilliman's attempts to learn its nature". Now those words may simply mean that Guilliman could not fathom it, or perhaps it might mean there was active resistance. We don't know. The mechanisms of the Throne may be similar.
Could be. Despite all the Primarchs having brilliant minds, they were not all equal. Guilliman has never shown any traces of psychic potential so it is conceivable that figuring out certain things will always be impossible for him. It would be like a blind man trying to understand colour.
The reason for why the Emperor's sword burned was described by Guilliman in Dark Imperium as "a question of the warp, not of science, despite the machine trappings on the blade and hilt." The Emperor's secret projects seem to have been Eldar-like in being a fusion of realspace and warp technology. Guilliman having no psychic potential beyond that innate to being a Primarch, might therefore be able to only at best grasp half of the picture.
I thought master of mankind made it clear the big E only ever thought of the primarchs as tools and only the custodes as close to "children."
For as pragmatic as Bobby G is I'm surprised that during the heresy, after, and again at his ressurection that he never realized that the emperor viewed the primarchs as generals only.
And for all the big E hate, I love that is how they shaped his character. Unknowable, vast, cruel, and magnificent all at the same time with one goal: save humanity and any price or lie to accomplish that goal was just par for the course.
Nova_Impero wrote: I think he knows about the problems with the Golden Throne. I would expect Roboute would find a way to fix it.
I would expect Roboute to instruct Cawl to find a way to fix it. And because Cawl is apparently made of magic and fariy-dust he'll fix it just in time.
buddha wrote: I thought master of mankind made it clear the big E only ever thought of the primarchs as tools and only the custodes as close to "children."
For as pragmatic as Bobby G is I'm surprised that during the heresy, after, and again at his ressurection that he never realized that the emperor viewed the primarchs as generals only.
I am pretty sure he did realise after his resurrection and now he is adapting to that knowledge.
Guilliman had expected nothing.
But He spoke.
With words of light and fire, the Emperor had conferred with His returned primarch, the last of His finest creations.
A creation. Not a son.
The living Emperor had been an artful being, as skilled at hiding His thoughts as He was at reading those of others. What remained of Him was powerful beyond comprehension, but it lacked the subtlety He had had whilst He walked among men. Speaking with the Emperor had been like conversing with a star. The Emperor’s words burned him.
What hurt most deeply was what went unsaid.
The Emperor greeted Guilliman not as a father receives a son, but as a craftsmen who rediscovers a favourite tool that he thought lost. He behaved like a prisoner locked in an iron cage who is passed a rasp.
Guilliman had no illusions. He was not the man who brought the rasp; he was the rasp. While the Emperor had walked abroad, He had cloaked His manipulations in love. He had let His primarchs call Him father; He had let them call themselves His sons. He had rarely spoken those words Himself, Guilliman now realised, and when He had He had done so without sincerity.
Buffeted by the full might of the Emperor’s will unclothed in flesh, a cloak had been ripped from Guilliman’s eyes.
The Emperor had allowed them to love Him, and to believe He loved them in return. He had not. His primarchs were weapons, that was all.
Though His power was immense, perhaps greater than it had been before He ascended, the Emperor’s humanity was all but gone. He could no longer mask His thoughts with a human face. The Emperor’s light was blinding, all encompassing, but finally – finally – Guilliman had seen it as a whole. The being he had thought of as a father could hide nothing from him.
Supertony51 wrote:So, I read the Dark imperium and how awkward and disappointed Gulliman felt about his meeting with the emperor. It got me thinking, does Gulliman know that the golden throne is failing, and if he does, will we see plans on how he intends to confront this issue?
I know he has a lot on his plate, but would he really allow the golden throne to fail without doing everything he can to preserve it? What about Cawl, could he offer some insight on how to fix the machine?
I'm really curious to see how and if GW approaches this topic.
What do you all think will happen?
It really depends on the origins of the Golden Throne and how much is physically left of the Emperor. The battle with Horus wrecked him physically to the point that he essentially couldn't sustain his own existence any more, even by suffusing himself with effectively infinite warp energy (we know he still retains his psychic strength). That means that whatever saves him needs to be able disentangle him from the Throne (if that's even still possible) without killing him and then restore him, or somehow do it whilst he's still on it. That's this bloke here, to pull out the official artwork:-
We know that there are other Dark Age technologies which had similar traits as the Throne(see the Heart of Iron). If a new one designed to heal the Emperor could be built or discovered, it could potentially restore him without the resurrection. This would require an in depth R&D program of the sort the Imperium simply doesn't currently have. Cawl is Guilliman's best bet of getting something going in that direction, but Cawl is something of an unknown factor.
The question is really, does Guilliman WANT to revive the Emperor to his pre-Heresy state? And even if he does, what if Cawl decides he'd rather stick him in some sort of Terminator suit as an embodiment of the Machine God with what little is left of his humanity purged? What Guilliman wants is not the only factor here.
Ynneadwraith wrote:
They wouldn't resurrect the Emperor even if they could. They want the Imperium just strong enough so that it can stalemate Chaos while the Eldar sit back and watch.
I think people forget that the Eldar are not on the Imperium's side.
I don't think the Eldar view the Emperor in the same way as they do stock humanity. I remember a conversation regaridng the Cabal where they apparently thought he was the one human who would probably belong on their council. Something about his longevity of nature, sheer psychic power, and singleness of purpose.
I would not be surprised to learn that an offer was extended to him at some point in the past by the Cabal to sit maongst them, and rejected. The Emperor seems to have unusual levels of xenophobia.
Ynneadwraith wrote:
Perhaps, but I don't think it's realistic to have the Eldar automatically siding against Chaos when the Imperium has been every bit as destructive to the Eldar species as Chaos has. Chaos isn't a greater enemy, they're both the same.
I understand the existential threat thing, but dead's dead. If the Imperium destroys a craftworld the exact same thing happens as when a Slaaneshi daemon does.
I'm afraid I don't agree. The ultimate goal of Chaos is to allow the Warp to suffuse the galaxy, eye of terror style, so that the Gods can reach out and influence the material world at will. To make it, in effect, just another dimension of the warp. Unless they plan to hide in the Webway forever, that essentially makes Chaos the greatest of existential threats to the Eldar. If they get eaten by 'Nids, at least their souls survive. If the Eye of Terror encompassed the entire physical realm, there would be nowhere left to hide from Slaanesh bar the webway.
The Imperium on the other hand? They're monkeys. Well armed monkeys, but monkeys nonetheless. A Maiden World seized by the Imperium can have its settlers killed and be reclaimed. A Maiden World polluted by Chaos is ruined for good. A soulstone lost to the Imperium is one that can be bought or violently taken back in the future. A soulstone taken by Chaos is devoured.
The Imperium is a transient, mundane threat, just like the Orks, the Tau, the Tarellians, the Hrud, and so on. Mundane threats which expand and contract of their own accord, which leave reclaimable assets in their wake. They can be intimidated, bargained with, even manipulated. Chaos?
I would not be surprised to learn that an offer was extended to him at some point in the past by the Cabal to sit maongst them, and rejected. The Emperor seems to have unusual levels of xenophobia.
The Emperor's purpose was to ensure the survival of humanity. Chaos may be public enemy number 1 but aliens are high on the list too. Remember that at the start of the Great Crusade, the Eldar had just created the God of excess in a massive death-orgy. The Emperor probably didn't see teeming up with these guys as a useful course of action.
Remember that Eldrad rejected the Cabal's strategy as well.
I would not be surprised to learn that an offer was extended to him at some point in the past by the Cabal to sit maongst them, and rejected. The Emperor seems to have unusual levels of xenophobia.
The Emperor's purpose was to ensure the survival of humanity. Chaos may be public enemy number 1 but aliens are high on the list too. Remember that at the start of the Great Crusade, the Eldar had just created the God of excess in a massive death-orgy. The Emperor probably didn't see teeming up with these guys as a useful course of action.
Remember that Eldrad rejected the Cabal's strategy as well.
Yeah the Cabal are a massively radical interspecies sect. They don't even represent a fraction of the Eldar as a whole. In fact, 'the Eldar' don't really have a unified voice at all. Whenever I speak of 'the Eldar' it's only even what I believe the majority reaction would be.
jhe90 wrote: A human may kill a eldar. But they will not be bother by the soul.
Chaos will kill you, take your soul, and torture you till you die again, and again.
If chaos makes deamon worlds they cannot be reversed.
Imperial settlements can be.
Humans represent a threat but far less permanent than chaos.
I think people underestimate the threat humans pose to the Eldar. It's hard for the Eldar to avoid their souls being devoured by Slaanesh if they're all dead.
Chaos' endgame for the Eldar is for Slaanesh to devour all of their souls. The Imperium's endgame for the Eldar is to genocide them...which leaves them defenceless against Slaanesh devouring their souls. Same result. Besides, killing an Eldar even if their soul is saved is still unforgivable by the Eldar's standards. Just because the world can be recovered after the mon'keigh slaughter its inhabitants, doesn't mean the Eldar are going to treat the Imperium any differently.
I will agree that the Imperium can be wielded as a tool by the Eldar, which does put them a little higher in the stakes. Just don't mistake any 'alliance' from the Eldar to be based on anything to do with mutual aid. They are absolutely and categorically 'not on our side', even against Chaos.
I think he must be aware of the issue, although it would be interesting to find out if the Emperor knows.
Guilliman only has three resources to draw upon that the Lords of Terra did not, himself, B Cawl and the Ynarri.
I can't see G-Man or Cawl figuring out how to fix it, given that it started as unfathomable dark age technology which was then modified on the command of one of the most brilliant minds ever to have existed.
I also don't see the Eldar fixing it, even if it was in their power to do so, as the Emperor has no appetite for sharing the galaxy with dangerous Xenos.
Therefore, I can only see two options. The Imperium find a new throne somewhere (a bit of a kop out really) or the throne does fail and triggers another big narrative shift.
We know that no failure occurs for at least 200 years though, as no mention of it is made in the 'Dark Imperium' book.
I thought the description of the Emperor was really interesting, far from being drained and exhausted from his eternal battle with chaos he has grown fat and thrived.
Perhaps this was from the worship of his people and the donation of psychic power in the Astronomicon, but they could be trying to set up the Emperor becoming a fully fledged warp entity.
I think the implications that Big E has lost his humanity or does not pretend anymore is a very good point for me.
Many people and even the Primarchs think that E's weakness was, he doesn't know how to be human or lack of empathy, but I'd argue that his emotion is actually his biggest mistake.
Yes, from the very beginning, the emperor has one single goal, that is to free humanity from the warp, and every thing that he does fuels him closer to that goal. Every creation is a tool, even the 1st Thunder warriors that he made.
And an efficient tool they were. And every thunder warrior is disposable.Then he requires even more efficient tools, the Primarchs. They were made as tools for war, not children because E is lonely.
In terms of Lorgar, E saw that this tool is not doing it's very function, and thus temper it back to it's function. In Angron, the nail can serve the function of war so it wasn't removed. Yes Angron was brutal, but he does his job, so all is well.
Does he know that the Primarchs can turn bad, yes of course He knew, but it doesn't matter, as He can just remove it and look for a new tool. Case to point, he even eradicated 2 primarchs for unknown reasons (of coz for us). When he is detached and use every tool in his arsenal, everything went well.
So where did he made one of his biggest mistake?? He grew too fond of Horus, he started to thing of Horus as a bit of his child, that's where. He believes Horus can lead as a Warmaster, and put his faith in him. For it is stated somewhere in the HH artbooks that He knew things were awry on the outside, He even knew when Magnus send the message via sorcery, but E couldn't bring himself to believe it, that his most trusted and beloved child would actually do this, He wanted to see it for himself. Yes, it is also stated in the artbooks that [b]He couldn't bring himself to kill Horus outright because E hoped that He can bring Horus back[/b]. This is where, having emotions and attachment to his Primarch/tools can hold him back to carry out the necessary actions. He could have blasted H to oblivion during vengeful spirit,or he could just send Russ after Horus when he received the message from Magnus. gak would have been so much more cleaner and things will still "go as planned".
Now I can imagine that being on the throne for some time, would at least give him some moments to reflect on this, then it would have also harden his resolve, knowing that He was so close to losing humanity, He must not falter anymore. He has no need to pretend as a father anymore, and He has no need to hide the fact that he views everyone as a tool anymore, because He must.
Now nobody know what exactly goes on during the exchange of RG and E, but I reckoned that He made his clear view for RG, and made it clear that unless he functions as the purpose that E requires, He has no use of him and might as well stay dead. This I guess, would shock RG in terms of humanity level, for he never expected that E would view them as such, but also finally understood the necessity of Him doing so. Perhaps E also present the other option where E dies and the Imperium fell into chaos, and realize it is precisely the emotionless devotion to the task that allows E to endure up till today despite the endless torture and agony.
So I don't think RG would suddenly take over the whole Imperium without the Emperor's instructions, but it is exactly because of Him. E would want him to be the dictator that He was, eradicating everything that is unnecessary to the task, like arts and history, and assume the full authoritarian role and resume His goal.
Does the Emperor love us? Yes, He does - Roboute Guilliman.
One thing RG doesn't contemplate in his ruminations nor do I see people asking here is the chicken and the egg scenario. Did the Emperor never have humanity or love for his Primarch or did getting interred on the Golden Throne strip away what once was there? Which came first?
RG is being a pouty teen regarding dear old dad right now, but it's possible he loved them once (see battle with Horus, building retirement palace for Primarch) and has since lost such capability in his advanced, but degenerate, state.
Audustum wrote: One thing RG doesn't contemplate in his ruminations nor do I see people asking here is the chicken and the egg scenario. Did the Emperor never have humanity or love for his Primarch or did getting interred on the Golden Throne strip away what once was there? Which came first?
RG is being a pouty teen regarding dear old dad right now, but it's possible he loved them once (see battle with Horus, building retirement palace for Primarch) and has since lost such capability in his advanced, but degenerate, state.
True, he is going through mid-life crisis or emotional turmoil right now.
Got resurrected by Xenos
The imperium in this Catholicism mess
First brother to brother meeting didn't go well (fulgrim)
2nd brother meeting also crap (magnus)
Persuading others regarding Primaris
And now dad doesn't wanna be dad anymore
I could see it's all very frustrating for him ever since he came back. Everything, except that one spark from Yvraine.
Audustum wrote: One thing RG doesn't contemplate in his ruminations nor do I see people asking here is the chicken and the egg scenario. Did the Emperor never have humanity or love for his Primarch or did getting interred on the Golden Throne strip away what once was there? Which came first?
RG is being a pouty teen regarding dear old dad right now, but it's possible he loved them once (see battle with Horus, building retirement palace for Primarch) and has since lost such capability in his advanced, but degenerate, state.
True, he is going through mid-life crisis or emotional turmoil right now.
Got resurrected by Xenos
The imperium in this Catholicism mess
First brother to brother meeting didn't go well (fulgrim)
2nd brother meeting also crap (magnus)
Persuading others regarding Primaris
And now dad doesn't wanna be dad anymore
I could see it's all very frustrating for him ever since he came back. Everything, except that one spark from Yvraine.
Yeah, I guess I can't blame the guy too much. Maybe this will pick up if Lion comes back after Mortarion.
I can't imagine Gulliman will be the only primarch to return, rumor mills been saying Russ is next. IMHO I think there's a lot of intreasting possiabilkiies with that one. oddly I think Russ'd be good for Gulliman
As far as Eldar and the Emperor go, the master od mankind did meet and even gift Eldrad with a token of their "friendship" who later used it when he tried to send agent to contact Big E during The Beast debacle. Just goes to show that he's not totally turned of the idea of working with Xenos and even Eldrad admitted to himself that after the Emperor was entombed in the throne the two empires could only survive or even beat chaos by working togther.
As for gulliman I'm not sure that even him and Cawl together could repair the throne unless they found a plot toolbox in the Noctis labyrinth. The primarchs that probably could would be in my mind, Vulcan, Perturabo, and Magnus, only with all working together but thats never going to happen
Jon Garrett wrote: Either Russ or the Lion would be a good way to counter Gulliman's issues.
Please let it be Russ. If the Lion comes back, then they have to explain or deal with the issue of resurrecting/healing a Primarch again, and Cypher's mystery has to revealed/ended. At least Russ just went on his own quest, it's easier to explain that he got caught up or lost (Plus his 30k model is so damn cool).
Jon Garrett wrote: Either Russ or the Lion would be a good way to counter Gulliman's issues.
Please let it be Russ. If the Lion comes back, then they have to explain or deal with the issue of resurrecting/healing a Primarch again, and Cypher's mystery has to revealed/ended. At least Russ just went on his own quest, it's easier to explain that he got caught up or lost (Plus his 30k model is so damn cool).
the Lion 's been said to be fully healed (he's been in acoma for 10k years) I think with the Lion the question that'd need to be answered more then anything is "why's it taken so long" one wonders if the watchers in the dark have their own agenda at play
Jon Garrett wrote: Either Russ or the Lion would be a good way to counter Gulliman's issues.
Please let it be Russ. If the Lion comes back, then they have to explain or deal with the issue of resurrecting/healing a Primarch again, and Cypher's mystery has to revealed/ended. At least Russ just went on his own quest, it's easier to explain that he got caught up or lost (Plus his 30k model is so damn cool).
Cyphers mystery doesn't have to end. What happens if the Lion takes a look at him and says "I don't recognize that guy"? The idea that the Cypher could be a Dread Pirate Roberts type thing could hold water.
Jon Garrett wrote: Either Russ or the Lion would be a good way to counter Gulliman's issues.
Please let it be Russ. If the Lion comes back, then they have to explain or deal with the issue of resurrecting/healing a Primarch again, and Cypher's mystery has to revealed/ended. At least Russ just went on his own quest, it's easier to explain that he got caught up or lost (Plus his 30k model is so damn cool).
Cyphers mystery doesn't have to end. What happens if the Lion takes a look at him and says "I don't recognize that guy"? The idea that the Cypher could be a Dread Pirate Roberts type thing could hold water.
Also the Lion wasn't exactly renowed as forthcoming. I could easily see the Lion coming back and little changing. with the only new revelation about Cypher being "Since his return the Lion has pushed his sons even ahrder to track and capture Cypher. He has thus far however refused to explain the reason for his urgancy in this matter"
Jon Garrett wrote: Either Russ or the Lion would be a good way to counter Gulliman's issues.
Please let it be Russ. If the Lion comes back, then they have to explain or deal with the issue of resurrecting/healing a Primarch again, and Cypher's mystery has to revealed/ended. At least Russ just went on his own quest, it's easier to explain that he got caught up or lost (Plus his 30k model is so damn cool).
Cyphers mystery doesn't have to end. What happens if the Lion takes a look at him and says "I don't recognize that guy"? The idea that the Cypher could be a Dread Pirate Roberts type thing could hold water.
Oh hell yeah. That's a brilliant idea anything that ups the mystery factor of Cypher is good by me
Jon Garrett wrote: Either Russ or the Lion would be a good way to counter Gulliman's issues.
Please let it be Russ. If the Lion comes back, then they have to explain or deal with the issue of resurrecting/healing a Primarch again, and Cypher's mystery has to revealed/ended. At least Russ just went on his own quest, it's easier to explain that he got caught up or lost (Plus his 30k model is so damn cool).
Cyphers mystery doesn't have to end. What happens if the Lion takes a look at him and says "I don't recognize that guy"? The idea that the Cypher could be a Dread Pirate Roberts type thing could hold water.
Oh hell yeah. That's a brilliant idea anything that ups the mystery factor of Cypher is good by me
Not until Roboute question him about Cypher, or that why Cypher has the Lion's sword. And since Roboute is the head of the Imperium now, it's hard to see how the Lion can choose not to answer him. So please, bring back Russ
No, you don't quite understand. What if the Lion actually doesn't know who Cypher is...
Guilliman wouldn't know whether to believe the Lion or not. The Lion would get pissed that his word's not being taken. And all the while we're left with the question 'just who the hell is Cypher if even his Primarch doesn't know who he is'.
I would be happy with Russ coming back provided he promptly renames half of the Space Wolf codex to something with a little more inspiration and nuance than 'Wolf McWolfClaws'
Eldenfirefly wrote:I don't get what Gulliman was so disappointed about. He was well and alive after the Emperor was transferred to the golden throne. He was alive for many many years after that before he went into stasis from the wound he received. The emperor is still there in his barely alive state on the golden throne even after 10,000 years. What has changed to make him feel any different?
Gulliman should be perfectly clear and aware of the state of the Emperor even before he went into stasis.
Don't bring logic or continuity into this...
I seriously think the missed opportunity was to have Cypher BE the Lion. Think about it: lifelong friend fell under Chaos's sway, but felt remorse/repented before delivering the killing blow. Lion awakes to find the Fallen hunted like dogs, even the repentant ones. Quest to bring the Sword to the Emperor to have it reforged and vindicate the Fallen is his way of helping Luther. Not to mention that several descriptions of Cypher and Lion match. Remember the Russ/Johnson fight? Russ was described as stronger, and Johnson was described as faster. Look at Cypher's initiative since the establishment of his rules.
BrianDavion wrote: people love to bash on the Codex but you need to ask, what would have happened if Huron had been, instead of Master of the Astral Claws CHAPTER, Master of the Ultramarines LEGION?
Perhaps if Huron had been given the tools required to protect and expand the boundaries of the Imperium, rather than being shackled by an inept bureaucracy, he would not have rebelled.
So, genuine questions here as i'm more up to date with HH lore than 40k lore....
What is stopping the webway tear caused by Magnus being repaired by the Eldar? Thus freeing up forces and focus?
Can the Pharos and Sotha be recovered and repaired? As for what i remember its just buried in "concreate".
If both are possible, it opens up options to attempt a "turn off the throne" and see what happens if the Emperor dies, as other things will be in place.
On the eldar front, it's because the eldar are in no way friends or allies of the imperium. Not in the slightest.
The Imperium is a blunt instrument to be wielded against Chaos/Orks/'nids/Necrons/whoever, with the end result of everyone except the eldar winding up dead.
Anything the Eldar ever do is for the sole benefit of the eldar. Due to their ability to see the future with much better clarity than any other race, they can develop plans that dupe the 'lesser' races into fighting their wars for them.
That's why they resurrected Guilliman. Not to do the Imperium a favour against their mutual enemy, but to save eldar skins.
What is stopping the webway tear caused by Magnus being repaired by the Eldar? Thus freeing up forces and focus?
If you're referring to the Webway tear on Terra then the Emperor's holding that closed. If they do it and he gets up then it's bad news for the Eldar. Last time the Emperor was walking around he tried to exterminate pretty much every xeno he came across. If they do it and he doesn't then I don't think much changes. The Psykers will still be culled for being too dangerous and there isn't any fighting done down there anymore.
Like Ynneadwraith said Eldar and Imperials aren't friends. If the Imperium gets too strong they will destroy the Eldar as eagerly as they will everyone else. If the Eldar somehow became dominant they'd likely do the same.
Eldenfirefly wrote:I don't get what Gulliman was so disappointed about. He was well and alive after the Emperor was transferred to the golden throne. He was alive for many many years after that before he went into stasis from the wound he received. The emperor is still there in his barely alive state on the golden throne even after 10,000 years. What has changed to make him feel any different?
Gulliman should be perfectly clear and aware of the state of the Emperor even before he went into stasis.
Don't bring logic or continuity into this...
That's an interesting question actually. Applying logic, Guilliman being shocked now would imply that his father has changed since he last saw him. Which must mean that after initially being interred in the Golden Throne, the Emperor's psyche was intact, and he was able to keep up his earlier pretences to an extent.
For that to no longer be the case means that it was likely the strain of maintaining so many systems (the astronomican and holding the webway shut) over such a prolonged period of time which has driven him into madness.
Eldenfirefly wrote:I don't get what Gulliman was so disappointed about. He was well and alive after the Emperor was transferred to the golden throne. He was alive for many many years after that before he went into stasis from the wound he received. The emperor is still there in his barely alive state on the golden throne even after 10,000 years. What has changed to make him feel any different?
Gulliman should be perfectly clear and aware of the state of the Emperor even before he went into stasis.
Don't bring logic or continuity into this...
That's an interesting question actually. Applying logic, Guilliman being shocked now would imply that his father has changed since he last saw him. Which must mean that after initially being interred in the Golden Throne, the Emperor's psyche was intact, and he was able to keep up his earlier pretences to an extent.
For that to no longer be the case means that it was likely the strain of maintaining so many systems (the astronomican and holding the webway shut) over such a prolonged period of time which has driven him into madness.
IIRC Dark Imperium implied that this may have been the first time the emperor communicated with him from the throne.
Ynneadwraith wrote: No, you don't quite understand. What if the Lion actually doesn't know who Cypher is...
Guilliman wouldn't know whether to believe the Lion or not. The Lion would get pissed that his word's not being taken. And all the while we're left with the question 'just who the hell is Cypher if even his Primarch doesn't know who he is'.
Plus the Lion coming back could create some interesting friction. He always had jealousy issues about Horus being chosen as Warmaster and was very suspicious about the whole Imperium Secundus thing. If he comes back and finds Roboute running the show while the DA Legion has been dismantled would make him one unhappy puppy.
Ynneadwraith wrote: No, you don't quite understand. What if the Lion actually doesn't know who Cypher is...
Guilliman wouldn't know whether to believe the Lion or not. The Lion would get pissed that his word's not being taken. And all the while we're left with the question 'just who the hell is Cypher if even his Primarch doesn't know who he is'.
Plus the Lion coming back could create some interesting friction. He always had jealousy issues about Horus being chosen as Warmaster and was very suspicious about the whole Imperium Secundus thing. If he comes back and finds Roboute running the show while the DA Legion has been dismantled would make him one unhappy puppy.
Absolutely that's why if any primarch is to come back, i want it to be the Lion. It would create tension which would actually be interesting.
Most of the others would sort of just get along which is...tedious.
Ynneadwraith wrote: No, you don't quite understand. What if the Lion actually doesn't know who Cypher is...
Guilliman wouldn't know whether to believe the Lion or not. The Lion would get pissed that his word's not being taken. And all the while we're left with the question 'just who the hell is Cypher if even his Primarch doesn't know who he is'.
Plus the Lion coming back could create some interesting friction. He always had jealousy issues about Horus being chosen as Warmaster and was very suspicious about the whole Imperium Secundus thing. If he comes back and finds Roboute running the show while the DA Legion has been dismantled would make him one unhappy puppy.
Absolutely that's why if any primarch is to come back, i want it to be the Lion. It would create tension which would actually be interesting.
Most of the others would sort of just get along which is...tedious.
Some how I suspect Russ and Gulliman would see some tension as wellactually in terms of tension Russ, the Lion and Gulliman would bean intreasting triumvirate.
What about Dorn? He was almost brought the Imperium to civil war again by refusing to break up his Legion. Is that not another source of "interesting" friction?
Interesting, to me, would be a story involving Cortez escaping the Dark Eldar. If anyone could do it, it'd be him.
BrianDavion wrote: Somehow I suspect Russ and Gulliman would see some tension as well - actually in terms of tension Russ, the Lion and Gulliman would be an intreasting triumvirate.
The Emperor's head bureaucrat and statistician Guilliman having to deal with The Lion - who keeps needed information from him - and Russ who just pretty much sees bureaucrazy and statistics as useless? That would be pretty harsh on Guilliman especially, but ofc The Lion too would be pissed at RG demanding info from him while Russ is just dipping info request forms into booze and lighting them on fire. I guess words would be spoken and blows exchanged before Russ starts laughing and tries defusing the situation, which might only irritate The Lion more.
Eldenfirefly wrote:I don't get what Gulliman was so disappointed about. He was well and alive after the Emperor was transferred to the golden throne. He was alive for many many years after that before he went into stasis from the wound he received. The emperor is still there in his barely alive state on the golden throne even after 10,000 years. What has changed to make him feel any different?
Gulliman should be perfectly clear and aware of the state of the Emperor even before he went into stasis.
Don't bring logic or continuity into this...
That's an interesting question actually. Applying logic, Guilliman being shocked now would imply that his father has changed since he last saw him. Which must mean that after initially being interred in the Golden Throne, the Emperor's psyche was intact, and he was able to keep up his earlier pretences to an extent.
For that to no longer be the case means that it was likely the strain of maintaining so many systems (the astronomican and holding the webway shut) over such a prolonged period of time which has driven him into madness.
IIRC Dark Imperium implied that this may have been the first time the emperor communicated with him from the throne.
I've mentioned before in previous page, the Emperor isn't going crazy.
Firstly, it wasn't Roboute who put Emperor onto the throne, it was Rogal Dorn, and He was the last person the Emperor ever spoke to before He went silent. Of course later on in other novels E did communicate to some others too.
Next, my point is, E is still very much sane and functioning, it is just that He no longer has time for pretense and other nonsense. In the past, He simply communicates more like a normal human and allow the Primarchs to see Him as a father figure because He thought that it will benefit them to function better.
Now with everything in almost total crisis, He threw off any pretense, any guise, and send Roboute a very very direct message. THE EMPEROR WAS COMMUNICATING IN HIS TRUE HONESTY.
It was finally revealed that deep within Him, He has never considered RG or any of his brothers as children, but tools, just very good tools. And tools are disposable if useless. So in a sense, in my thoughts He probably say along the lines, "Can you do it or not? If you can't then you are no use to me alive or dead" (my opinion)
Of course, this feels like a very harsh response considering that everything has been going WTF ever since RG was resurrected. E was very to the point, He is still very much focused on the Grand picture, and despite the very harsh and emotionless reply from a figure RG considered as father, RG understood the importance of His goals and ideals.
So to bring back the point, The Emperor has not changed, but rather, now RG know His true colors. It's all pretty logical.
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Ynneadwraith wrote: On the eldar front, it's because the eldar are in no way friends or allies of the imperium. Not in the slightest.
The Imperium is a blunt instrument to be wielded against Chaos/Orks/'nids/Necrons/whoever, with the end result of everyone except the eldar winding up dead.
Anything the Eldar ever do is for the sole benefit of the eldar. Due to their ability to see the future with much better clarity than any other race, they can develop plans that dupe the 'lesser' races into fighting their wars for them.
That's why they resurrected Guilliman. Not to do the Imperium a favour against their mutual enemy, but to save eldar skins.
And if I were the Eldar, I must remind them that the one of the galaxies greatest threat is because of Him, they even tried to warn Fulgrim and got smashed by him.
While Slaneesh and Chaos was dangerous, they didn't have man powerful lackeys in the material world, that's why it was a very2 rare occurrence, if almost none, that the marines ever encountered or saw a Greater Demon.
And after HH, now almost every encounter with CSM will have demons and greater demons.
So its relatable, if I were an eldar, I probably want the Imperium dying while exterminating Chaos.
Karhedron wrote: Plus the Lion coming back could create some interesting friction. He always had jealousy issues about Horus being chosen as Warmaster and was very suspicious about the whole Imperium Secundus thing. If he comes back and finds Roboute running the show while the DA Legion has been dismantled would make him one unhappy puppy.
Absolutely that's why if any primarch is to come back, i want it to be the Lion. It would create tension which would actually be interesting.
Most of the others would sort of just get along which is...tedious.
Some how I suspect Russ and Gulliman would see some tension as wellactually in terms of tension Russ, the Lion and Gulliman would bean intreasting triumvirate.
Russ would want to hit things. My guess is that Roboute would be more than happy to let him act as military commander while he got on with shoring up the Imperium. One possible problem is that Roboute might want to act defensively while Russ might want to be more aggressive and take the fight to the Traitors (although Gulliman has kinda done that anyway with the Indomnitus Crusade).
Roboute and Russ are very different but I don't see that necessarily as being a cause of friction. I could see them splitting the work and getting on with it fairly evenly.
I've mentioned before in previous page, the Emperor isn't going crazy.
Firstly, it wasn't Roboute who put Emperor onto the throne, it was Rogal Dorn, and He was the last person the Emperor ever spoke to before He went silent. Of course later on in other novels E did communicate to some others too.
Next, my point is, E is still very much sane and functioning, it is just that He no longer has time for pretense and other nonsense. In the past, He simply communicates more like a normal human and allow the Primarchs to see Him as a father figure because He thought that it will benefit them to function better.
This is the point where you ran off into the realms of headcanon. The latest book with Dark Imperium is building on a previous illustration of the Emperor as having mentally broken under the strain. It goes all the way back to the days of Jaq Draco and the Inquisition War. To type out some of the relevant extracts:
'"WE ARE MANY INQUISITOR."
"HOW ELSE COULD WE ADMINISTER OUR IMPERIUM-"
"AS WELL AS WINNOW THE WARP-"
"HOW ELSE?"
The Emperor's mind-voice, if that truly was what it was, had diassociated into several voices, as if his great undying soul co-existed in fragments which barely clung together'....
'Maybe Jaq was too young by hundreds, by thousands of years, and his intellect too puny to comprehend the multiplex mind of the master who was forever on overview, whose thoughts battered in his mind. Or maybe the master's mind had become chaotic. Not warped by the Ruinous Powers it surveyed, but divided amongst itself as its heroic grasp on existence ever so slowly weakened'.
"WHEN WE CONFRONTED THE CORRIPTED HOMICIDAL HORUS WHO ONCE USED TO SHINE LIKE THE BRIGHTEST STAR, WHO USED TO BE OUR BELOVED FAVOURITE - WHEN THE FATE OF THE GALAXY HUNG BY A THREAD - WERE WE NOT COMPELLED TO EXPEL ALL COMPASSION? ALL LOVE? ALL JOY? THOSE WENT AWAY. HOW ELSE COULD WE HAVE ARMOURED OURSELVES? EXISTENCE IS TORMENT, A TORMENT THAT MUST NOURISH US. EVIDENTLY WE MUST STRIVE TO BE THE FIERCE REDEEMER OF MAN, YET WHAT WILL REDEEM US?"
"HEED THIS JAQ DRACO. ONLY TINY PORTIONS OF US CAN HEED YOU, OTHERWISE WE NEGLECT OUR IMPERIUM, OF WHICH OUR SCRUTINY MUST NOT FALTER FOR AN INSTANT. FOR TIME DOES NOT HALT EVERYWHERE WITHIN THE REALM OF MAN. INDEED, TIME HALTS ONLY FOR YOU."
"WE ARE AN EVER WATCHFUL LORD, ARE WE NOT? DID YOU HOPE TO GAIN OUR UNDIVIDED ATTENTION?"
"HOW ELSE SHOULD WE SOUL-BIND PSYKERS AND OVERVIEW THE WARP AND BEAM THE ASTRONOMICAN BEACON AND SURVIVE AND RECEIVE INFORMATION AND GRANT AUDIENCES ALL AT ONCE UNLESS WE ARE MANY?"
"AND YET WE STILL MISS SO MUCH, SO VERY MUCH SUCH AS THAT WHICH GUIDED YOU HERE."
"OUR SPIRIT GUIDED YOU."
"NO: ANOTHER SPIRIT, A RECOLLECTION OF OUR GOODNESS WHICH WE THRUST FROM US."
"WE ARE THE THE ONLY SOURCE OF GOODNESS, SEVERE AND DRASTIC. THERE IS NO OTHER SOURCE OF HOPE THAN US. WE ARE AGONISINGLY ALONE."
I'm reasonably certain that if the Emperor had sounded like this before Guilliman wandered off, he'd have been considerably less shocked. We always hear the Emperor referring to himself in the singular, to his Custodes, to Grammaticus, to his Primarchs, to the Mechanicus. By the time Guilliman gets to him in 40K though, 'his humanity is gone', and speaking with him is like conversing 'with a star'.
To me, that 'AGONISINGLY ALONE' bit really jives with the image Guilliman sees of the Emperor as perceiving him as rasp suddenly handed into his jail. When the loyalist Primarchs disappeared, the Emperor saw his hope for ever leaving the Throne disappear with them. The strain of simply existing is listed next to the Astronomican. He could never stop, for he must "STRIVE TO BE THE REDEEMER OF MAN."Yet at the same time, His poignant cry emanates,"WHAT WILL REDEEM US?"
Powerful stuff indeed. Now finally, Guilliman has come home. And the mental fragments that now make up the Emperor's psyche see a slim hope for his own fate with that return.
Intreasting that it almost jives with a idea I ahd awhile back, maybe the emperor isn't actually JUST the emperor, but is now almost a composite of the emperor and all the souls sacrificed to him
I've mentioned before in previous page, the Emperor isn't going crazy.
Firstly, it wasn't Roboute who put Emperor onto the throne, it was Rogal Dorn, and He was the last person the Emperor ever spoke to before He went silent. Of course later on in other novels E did communicate to some others too.
Next, my point is, E is still very much sane and functioning, it is just that He no longer has time for pretense and other nonsense. In the past, He simply communicates more like a normal human and allow the Primarchs to see Him as a father figure because He thought that it will benefit them to function better.
This is the point where you ran off into the realms of headcanon. The latest book with Dark Imperium is building on a previous illustration of the Emperor as having mentally broken under the strain. It goes all the way back to the days of Jaq Draco and the Inquisition War. To type out some of the relevant extracts:
'"WE ARE MANY INQUISITOR."
"HOW ELSE COULD WE ADMINISTER OUR IMPERIUM-"
"AS WELL AS WINNOW THE WARP-"
"HOW ELSE?"
The Emperor's mind-voice, if that truly was what it was, had diassociated into several voices, as if his great undying soul co-existed in fragments which barely clung together'....
'Maybe Jaq was too young by hundreds, by thousands of years, and his intellect too puny to comprehend the multiplex mind of the master who was forever on overview, whose thoughts battered in his mind. Or maybe the master's mind had become chaotic. Not warped by the Ruinous Powers it surveyed, but divided amongst itself as its heroic grasp on existence ever so slowly weakened'.
"WHEN WE CONFRONTED THE CORRIPTED HOMICIDAL HORUS WHO ONCE USED TO SHINE LIKE THE BRIGHTEST STAR, WHO USED TO BE OUR BELOVED FAVOURITE - WHEN THE FATE OF THE GALAXY HUNG BY A THREAD - WERE WE NOT COMPELLED TO EXPEL ALL COMPASSION? ALL LOVE? ALL JOY? THOSE WENT AWAY. HOW ELSE COULD WE HAVE ARMOURED OURSELVES? EXISTENCE IS TORMENT, A TORMENT THAT MUST NOURISH US. EVIDENTLY WE MUST STRIVE TO BE THE FIERCE REDEEMER OF MAN, YET WHAT WILL REDEEM US?"
"HEED THIS JAQ DRACO. ONLY TINY PORTIONS OF US CAN HEED YOU, OTHERWISE WE NEGLECT OUR IMPERIUM, OF WHICH OUR SCRUTINY MUST NOT FALTER FOR AN INSTANT. FOR TIME DOES NOT HALT EVERYWHERE WITHIN THE REALM OF MAN. INDEED, TIME HALTS ONLY FOR YOU."
"WE ARE AN EVER WATCHFUL LORD, ARE WE NOT? DID YOU HOPE TO GAIN OUR UNDIVIDED ATTENTION?"
"HOW ELSE SHOULD WE SOUL-BIND PSYKERS AND OVERVIEW THE WARP AND BEAM THE ASTRONOMICAN BEACON AND SURVIVE AND RECEIVE INFORMATION AND GRANT AUDIENCES ALL AT ONCE UNLESS WE ARE MANY?"
"AND YET WE STILL MISS SO MUCH, SO VERY MUCH SUCH AS THAT WHICH GUIDED YOU HERE."
"OUR SPIRIT GUIDED YOU."
"NO: ANOTHER SPIRIT, A RECOLLECTION OF OUR GOODNESS WHICH WE THRUST FROM US."
"WE ARE THE THE ONLY SOURCE OF GOODNESS, SEVERE AND DRASTIC. THERE IS NO OTHER SOURCE OF HOPE THAN US. WE ARE AGONISINGLY ALONE."
I'm reasonably certain that if the Emperor had sounded like this before Guilliman wandered off, he'd have been considerably less shocked. We always hear the Emperor referring to himself in the singular, to his Custodes, to Grammaticus, to his Primarchs, to the Mechanicus. By the time Guilliman gets to him in 40K though, 'his humanity is gone', and speaking with him is like conversing 'with a star'.
To me, that 'AGONISINGLY ALONE' bit really jives with the image Guilliman sees of the Emperor as perceiving him as rasp suddenly handed into his jail. When the loyalist Primarchs disappeared, the Emperor saw his hope for ever leaving the Throne disappear with them. The strain of simply existing is listed next to the Astronomican. He could never stop, for he must "STRIVE TO BE THE REDEEMER OF MAN."Yet at the same time, His poignant cry emanates,"WHAT WILL REDEEM US?"
Powerful stuff indeed. Now finally, Guilliman has come home. And the mental fragments that now make up the Emperor's psyche see a slim hope for his own fate with that return.
Ok, sort of there, but perhaps we have a slight misunderstanding here.
When I say the E is sane, it means He can still put on rational thoughts, He can still work things out, no matter how stressful etc.
Insane or mental breakdown means, something some where is not functioning right, like Him suddenly not beaming the Astronomicon or Him suddenly frying his own custodes using psychic powers.
So yes, the emperor is under incredible pressure and torment, but did not let go of His focus and work.
The emperor has never been a man, but a collective Pyskers reincarnated into one. He has always been able to operate many things at once since He has always been a "group". But before HH, He communicated closer like a man, like you say, in singularity. Only after HH, He communicated to Draco unlike a man.
As Draco, I would be surprised as well, since Draco or anyone, even RG perhaps, didn't know that He was this "many".
"Expelling all compassion", yes, I did mentioned this previously, that He indeed must have expelled all compassion and work like a total tyrant, in order to redeem mankind. Because despite what some say about an emotionless father, His emotions was what destroys Him, for He hesitates to act on Horus.
So in the end, what I am claiming again is, it all makes sense. Guilliman surprised by the Emperor's was of thinking, and why Emperor acts the way He acts. RG is frustrated but still firm. Emperor is still sane and stressed out. It's really good grim dark stuff.
Ok, sort of there, but perhaps we have a slight misunderstanding here.
When I say the E is sane, it means He can still put on rational thoughts, He can still work things out, no matter how stressful etc.
Insane or mental breakdown means, something some where is not functioning right, like Him suddenly not beaming the Astronomicon or Him suddenly frying his own custodes using psychic powers.
So yes, the emperor is under incredible pressure and torment, but did not let go of His focus and work.
See, in a normal person, having extensive multiple personality disorder is considered 'insane' for the most part. I can't be bothered to type out more, but there are extensive tracts in that bit of story where the Emperor talks about different facets of Him hiding information from others. When you combine that with the way the voices purely in the extract above quickly contradict each other, I don't think we're talking about a paragon of sanity by any stretch of the imagination.
You can argue, I suppose, that he always had that going on in his head and nobody ever saw it. But to me, that would simply qualify him as always having been insane, but he had sufficient willpower to hold it together as one cohesive mass, which has clearly now gone (given that different parts of him appear to be working at total crosspurpose - I won't give the spoilers here).
If you think that somebody in that position qualifies as 'sane', I think we have very different conceptions of the word.
I've mentioned before in previous page, the Emperor isn't going crazy.
Firstly, it wasn't Roboute who put Emperor onto the throne, it was Rogal Dorn, and He was the last person the Emperor ever spoke to before He went silent. Of course later on in other novels E did communicate to some others too.
Next, my point is, E is still very much sane and functioning, it is just that He no longer has time for pretense and other nonsense. In the past, He simply communicates more like a normal human and allow the Primarchs to see Him as a father figure because He thought that it will benefit them to function better.
This is the point where you ran off into the realms of headcanon. The latest book with Dark Imperium is building on a previous illustration of the Emperor as having mentally broken under the strain. It goes all the way back to the days of Jaq Draco and the Inquisition War. To type out some of the relevant extracts:
'"WE ARE MANY INQUISITOR."
"HOW ELSE COULD WE ADMINISTER OUR IMPERIUM-"
"AS WELL AS WINNOW THE WARP-"
"HOW ELSE?"
The Emperor's mind-voice, if that truly was what it was, had diassociated into several voices, as if his great undying soul co-existed in fragments which barely clung together'....
'Maybe Jaq was too young by hundreds, by thousands of years, and his intellect too puny to comprehend the multiplex mind of the master who was forever on overview, whose thoughts battered in his mind. Or maybe the master's mind had become chaotic. Not warped by the Ruinous Powers it surveyed, but divided amongst itself as its heroic grasp on existence ever so slowly weakened'.
"WHEN WE CONFRONTED THE CORRIPTED HOMICIDAL HORUS WHO ONCE USED TO SHINE LIKE THE BRIGHTEST STAR, WHO USED TO BE OUR BELOVED FAVOURITE - WHEN THE FATE OF THE GALAXY HUNG BY A THREAD - WERE WE NOT COMPELLED TO EXPEL ALL COMPASSION? ALL LOVE? ALL JOY? THOSE WENT AWAY. HOW ELSE COULD WE HAVE ARMOURED OURSELVES? EXISTENCE IS TORMENT, A TORMENT THAT MUST NOURISH US. EVIDENTLY WE MUST STRIVE TO BE THE FIERCE REDEEMER OF MAN, YET WHAT WILL REDEEM US?"
"HEED THIS JAQ DRACO. ONLY TINY PORTIONS OF US CAN HEED YOU, OTHERWISE WE NEGLECT OUR IMPERIUM, OF WHICH OUR SCRUTINY MUST NOT FALTER FOR AN INSTANT. FOR TIME DOES NOT HALT EVERYWHERE WITHIN THE REALM OF MAN. INDEED, TIME HALTS ONLY FOR YOU."
"WE ARE AN EVER WATCHFUL LORD, ARE WE NOT? DID YOU HOPE TO GAIN OUR UNDIVIDED ATTENTION?"
"HOW ELSE SHOULD WE SOUL-BIND PSYKERS AND OVERVIEW THE WARP AND BEAM THE ASTRONOMICAN BEACON AND SURVIVE AND RECEIVE INFORMATION AND GRANT AUDIENCES ALL AT ONCE UNLESS WE ARE MANY?"
"AND YET WE STILL MISS SO MUCH, SO VERY MUCH SUCH AS THAT WHICH GUIDED YOU HERE."
"OUR SPIRIT GUIDED YOU."
"NO: ANOTHER SPIRIT, A RECOLLECTION OF OUR GOODNESS WHICH WE THRUST FROM US."
"WE ARE THE THE ONLY SOURCE OF GOODNESS, SEVERE AND DRASTIC. THERE IS NO OTHER SOURCE OF HOPE THAN US. WE ARE AGONISINGLY ALONE."
I'm reasonably certain that if the Emperor had sounded like this before Guilliman wandered off, he'd have been considerably less shocked. We always hear the Emperor referring to himself in the singular, to his Custodes, to Grammaticus, to his Primarchs, to the Mechanicus. By the time Guilliman gets to him in 40K though, 'his humanity is gone', and speaking with him is like conversing 'with a star'.
To me, that 'AGONISINGLY ALONE' bit really jives with the image Guilliman sees of the Emperor as perceiving him as rasp suddenly handed into his jail. When the loyalist Primarchs disappeared, the Emperor saw his hope for ever leaving the Throne disappear with them. The strain of simply existing is listed next to the Astronomican. He could never stop, for he must "STRIVE TO BE THE REDEEMER OF MAN."Yet at the same time, His poignant cry emanates,"WHAT WILL REDEEM US?"
Powerful stuff indeed. Now finally, Guilliman has come home. And the mental fragments that now make up the Emperor's psyche see a slim hope for his own fate with that return.
Ok, sort of there, but perhaps we have a slight misunderstanding here.
When I say the E is sane, it means He can still put on rational thoughts, He can still work things out, no matter how stressful etc.
Insane or mental breakdown means, something some where is not functioning right, like Him suddenly not beaming the Astronomicon or Him suddenly frying his own custodes using psychic powers.
So yes, the emperor is under incredible pressure and torment, but did not let go of His focus and work.
The emperor has never been a man, but a collective Pyskers reincarnated into one. He has always been able to operate many things at once since He has always been a "group". But before HH, He communicated closer like a man, like you say, in singularity. Only after HH, He communicated to Draco unlike a man.
As Draco, I would be surprised as well, since Draco or anyone, even RG perhaps, didn't know that He was this "many".
"Expelling all compassion", yes, I did mentioned this previously, that He indeed must have expelled all compassion and work like a total tyrant, in order to redeem mankind. Because despite what some say about an emotionless father, His emotions was what destroys Him, for He hesitates to act on Horus.
So in the end, what I am claiming again is, it all makes sense. Guilliman surprised by the Emperor's was of thinking, and why Emperor acts the way He acts. RG is frustrated but still firm. Emperor is still sane and stressed out. It's really good grim dark stuff.
Isn't "The Emperor is a collective Shaman Psyker Gestalt" not necessarily Cannon anymore? I've seen posts on this forum and even this on 1d4chan:
Allegedly, (according to 1st & 2nd edition fluff), his birth was the result of hundreds of human shamans committing ritual suicide to be reborn as a single individual capable of protecting humanity from the Chaos Gods. However, the validity of this fluff is frequently questioned, given it hasn't been "official" since second edition. However, this theory seems unlikely, especially given that other Perpetuals are known to exist, some of which may be even older than the Emperor, and they don't have godlike powers. The Chaos Gods apparently view the Emperor as an equal/rival due to his acquisition of powers at a later point (see below). Yet other fluff tidbits imply that he is some sort of flesh-construct from the Dark Age of Technology run amok and aping human affectation. This one seems to have some level of truth to it, as Constantin Valdor neither confirmed nor denied it when a gak-kicking Nord Afrikan minister mentioned it to him.
Isn't "The Emperor is a collective Shaman Psyker Gestalt" not necessarily Cannon anymore? I've seen posts on this forum and even this on 1d4chan:
Allegedly, (according to 1st & 2nd edition fluff), his birth was the result of hundreds of human shamans committing ritual suicide to be reborn as a single individual capable of protecting humanity from the Chaos Gods. However, the validity of this fluff is frequently questioned, given it hasn't been "official" since second edition. However, this theory seems unlikely, especially given that other Perpetuals are known to exist, some of which may be even older than the Emperor, and they don't have godlike powers. The Chaos Gods apparently view the Emperor as an equal/rival due to his acquisition of powers at a later point (see below). Yet other fluff tidbits imply that he is some sort of flesh-construct from the Dark Age of Technology run amok and aping human affectation. This one seems to have some level of truth to it, as Constantin Valdor neither confirmed nor denied it when a gak-kicking Nord Afrikan minister mentioned it to him.
True that it is not very official, but Him being many beings/people at once is true, since He confirmed it with Draco. ABout Valdor not replying, I think Valdor wouldn't know anything about it either, neither would he question E since he is super Loyal to Him. If anyone should know, I think it will be Malcador only, since he shares a special connection to Him.
True that it is not very official, but Him being many beings/people at once is true, since He confirmed it with Draco
All the Inquisition War proves is that he has Multiple Personality Disorder at the least. Likely from the strain of maintaining so many systems for so long in a withered husk of a mortal shell. Considering he functions in the singular in every other appearance ever made, I don't buy he's multiple people. Considering Guilliman says he received the full weight of his father's entire mind (as opposed to a fraction like Draco) and still refers to him in the singular, I think you need more to go on than the Shaman's theory at this stage.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but the evidence would appear stacked against it.
I've never heard anyone say it wasn't or give a reason for it not to be. The only thing that's ever been particularly affected in it by retconning was the existence of Grimm the Squat. Everything else is in line with current canon.
Isn't "The Emperor is a collective Shaman Psyker Gestalt" not necessarily Cannon anymore? I've seen posts on this forum and even this on 1d4chan:
Allegedly, (according to 1st & 2nd edition fluff), his birth was the result of hundreds of human shamans committing ritual suicide to be reborn as a single individual capable of protecting humanity from the Chaos Gods. However, the validity of this fluff is frequently questioned, given it hasn't been "official" since second edition. However, this theory seems unlikely, especially given that other Perpetuals are known to exist, some of which may be even older than the Emperor, and they don't have godlike powers. The Chaos Gods apparently view the Emperor as an equal/rival due to his acquisition of powers at a later point (see below). Yet other fluff tidbits imply that he is some sort of flesh-construct from the Dark Age of Technology run amok and aping human affectation. This one seems to have some level of truth to it, as Constantin Valdor neither confirmed nor denied it when a gak-kicking Nord Afrikan minister mentioned it to him.
This I like. Knowing stuff for certain about mysterious super-beings and the dim and distant past of 40k has always been a bit toxic to the whole feel of the universe. Much better to give 4 or 5 different possible explanations and leave them as all possible and none plausible.
Is the Emperor a psychic gestalt of pre-historic shamans? Is he some eldritch flesh-construct from the Dark Age of Technology? Is he just a regular human warlord from the Age of Strife who has built a cult of personality around him so strong that, due to the way belief works in the 40k universe, a billion billion humans in the galaxy have psychically manifested a true warp-god within him?
All are possible. None are definite. Much better that way.
Isn't "The Emperor is a collective Shaman Psyker Gestalt" not necessarily Cannon anymore?
Generally, the rule with the type of loose canon(lol) that 40k has is that stuff is canon unless it's contradicted by newer stuff. AFAIK, we haven't gotten another origin story for the Emperor, so his origin as the collective consciousness of thousands of shaman psykers from ~50k years in the past is still the official story.
Iracundus wrote: There can be no evolution of humanity into a more psychically powerful or mature race if those that are actually psychically skilled never produce children. The Imperium's policies make being a psyker disadvantageous to say the least, and this actively selects against being psychic. If you are a psyker, you are either condemned to be killed as a witch, consumed by the Emperor, or made to serve the Imperium under a cloud of suspicion meaning you will likely never have children. Even psychically active Inquisitors seem to spend their lives devoted to duty and have little time for raising a family. I'm sure in a vast galaxy there may be exceptions, but they are rare enough to the point of being insignificant.
The Emperor's plan is to safeguard and guide human's evolution in to a psychic race that is not prone to daemonic attack / perils of the warp.
If daemonic attack / perils indeed is genetically linked then it does make some sense to control these individuals. As it stands the most dangerous ones are destroyed, and those deemed 'safe' are allowed to work in the service of the Emperor.
I have my doubts whether humanity will ever produce 'safe' psykers, though, especially given the turbulent state of the warp.
Kdash wrote: So, genuine questions here as i'm more up to date with HH lore than 40k lore....
What is stopping the webway tear caused by Magnus being repaired by the Eldar? Thus freeing up forces and focus?
Master of Mankind pretty much said the Eldar did not build the webway, they just used it.
Even so they might not be able to.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just Tony wrote: What about Dorn? He was almost brought the Imperium to civil war again by refusing to break up his Legion. Is that not another source of "interesting" friction?
Um Dorns Skeleton is hanging in the Imperial Fist's battle barge and the bones are used for scrimshaw practice (per Ian Watson's Space Marine). While Johnson is just sitting in the closet (or running around being Cypher, or BOTH!) Dorn is pretty much dead, dead, D-E-A-D.
Sure it could be reconned (that was my identical cousin's clone's skeleton!) but it's more of a reach. Even Guilliman's return was plausible (in a comic book sort of way) but Dorn coming back would be a Bobby Ewing in the Shower sort of @#$% you to fans.
Isn't "The Emperor is a collective Shaman Psyker Gestalt" not necessarily Cannon anymore?
Generally, the rule with the type of loose canon(lol) that 40k has is that stuff is canon unless it's contradicted by newer stuff. AFAIK, we haven't gotten another origin story for the Emperor, so his origin as the collective consciousness of thousands of shaman psykers from ~50k years in the past is still the official story.
Nearly. More like 'nothing is canon-canon even if we outright state it, but everything might be true'.
Contrary to popular belief, this does not result in the whole universe collapsing into a miasma of confusion. It's actually quite liberating and novel.
Master of Mankind implied he was just your average everyday immortal psychic born 4000 years before the birth of Christ. It has a story about his uncle killing his father (IIRC).
But it's the Emperor himself telling that story so he might be lying.
He's always been embarrassed about being the gestalt of 1000 naked guys popping mushrooms.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Master of Mankind implied he was just your average everyday immortal psychic born 4000 years before the birth of Christ. It has a story about his uncle killing his father (IIRC).
But it's the Emperor himself telling that story so he might be lying.
He's always been embarrassed about being the gestalt of 1000 naked guys popping mushrooms.
Master of Mankin d does not contridict that story though. one os simply "how he lived his early life" the other is "how he got his powers"
Eldenfirefly wrote: I don't get what Gulliman was so disappointed about. He was well and alive after the Emperor was transferred to the golden throne. He was alive for many many years after that before he went into stasis from the wound he received. The emperor is still there in his barely alive state on the golden throne even after 10,000 years. What has changed to make him feel any different?
Gulliman should be perfectly clear and aware of the state of the Emperor even before he went into stasis.
I like to believe the Emperor never actually spoke to Guilliman, and he just stood there in silence with his head down. Think of it as a PR stunt. Guilliman knew it'd be better to lead the Imperium with the Emperor's "blessing" than it would be to admit they never communicated because the Emperor Is practically dead
Kdash wrote: So, genuine questions here as i'm more up to date with HH lore than 40k lore....
What is stopping the webway tear caused by Magnus being repaired by the Eldar? Thus freeing up forces and focus?
Master of Mankind pretty much said the Eldar did not build the webway, they just used it.
Even so they might not be able to.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just Tony wrote: What about Dorn? He was almost brought the Imperium to civil war again by refusing to break up his Legion. Is that not another source of "interesting" friction?
It was more of a halfhanded eyeroll at the thought that every story is "dull" or "boring" unless everybody is doing gakky things to everybody. Kind of how everybody is a bastard, just lesser degrees of being a bastard.
Um Dorns Skeleton is hanging in the Imperial Fist's battle barge and the bones are used for scrimshaw practice (per Ian Watson's Space Marine). While Johnson is just sitting in the closet (or running around being Cypher, or BOTH!) Dorn is pretty much dead, dead, D-E-A-D.
Sure it could be reconned (that was my identical cousin's clone's skeleton!) but it's more of a reach. Even Guilliman's return was plausible (in a comic book sort of way) but Dorn coming back would be a Bobby Ewing in the Shower sort of @#$% you to fans.
It was a halfhanded stab at the thought that stories are "dull" or "boring" unless someone is doing something absolutely gakky to someone else. Or like how everyone is an evil bastard, just some are less evil bastards.
Kdash wrote: So, genuine questions here as i'm more up to date with HH lore than 40k lore....
What is stopping the webway tear caused by Magnus being repaired by the Eldar? Thus freeing up forces and focus?
Master of Mankind pretty much said the Eldar did not build the webway, they just used it.
Even so they might not be able to.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just Tony wrote: What about Dorn? He was almost brought the Imperium to civil war again by refusing to break up his Legion. Is that not another source of "interesting" friction?
It was more of a halfhanded eyeroll at the thought that every story is "dull" or "boring" unless everybody is doing gakky things to everybody. Kind of how everybody is a bastard, just lesser degrees of being a bastard.
Um Dorns Skeleton is hanging in the Imperial Fist's battle barge and the bones are used for scrimshaw practice (per Ian Watson's Space Marine). While Johnson is just sitting in the closet (or running around being Cypher, or BOTH!) Dorn is pretty much dead, dead, D-E-A-D.
Sure it could be reconned (that was my identical cousin's clone's skeleton!) but it's more of a reach. Even Guilliman's return was plausible (in a comic book sort of way) but Dorn coming back would be a Bobby Ewing in the Shower sort of @#$% you to fans.
It was a halfhanded stab at the thought that stories are "dull" or "boring" unless someone is doing something absolutely gakky to someone else. Or like how everyone is an evil bastard, just some are less evil bastards.
Not necessarily boring (although I'd definitely use that term), more...unfitting to the 40k universe.
My thoughts on the matter is that the world is chock full of stories about goody goody heroes doing heroic things to clearly defined baddies. There's nothing inherently wrong about that, it's the basis of 95% of the whole superhero genre. However, it is really, really samey if you keep encountering it everywhere you go.
It feels genuinely refreshing to read about shades of grey characters that aren't all super-heroic or saturday morning cartoon villains. Although 40k does tend to slip into that relatively frequently it does at least try to veer away from that. Especially in the older fluff.
The reason it feels refreshing is that it feels realistic compared to the black and white alternative. In the real world, you very rarely get people who are just evil for evil's sake like the majority of supervillain type characters. If you do, they tend to be of the psychopathic serial-killer variety and their kill counts (while awful for the people involved) tend to be a little...pathetic...compared to the truly evil people in the world. Dozens maybe?
The truly evil people in the world. Dictators like Hitler, Stalin and Mao. They killed millions just of their own people. What marks them as different is that they thought what they were doing is the right thing. They thought that they were the 'good guys'. In fact, the fact that they're pinned as 'bad guys' is probably more to do with the fact that they lost than what they did. Even the 'good guys' have done some pretty horrific things. The Americans hit two Japanese cities, full of innocent civilians, with nuclear weapons. Us British actually invented concentration camps during the Boer War, and have a pretty appalling history of treatment of native peoples during the colonial era.
By mirroring that dynamic of 'people who truly believe that their side is right doing horrendous things in the name of that righteous cause', 40k with all its ridiculously unrealistic medieval combat in space with daemons and cockney-fungus aliens manages to feel more realistic than 95% of the entire comic book genre, which has perhaps only one big lie to suspend your disbelief over. Especially when set in the context that the whole universe is irreparably gakked by countless apocalypses, one of which created extradimensional beings that engineer horribleness on a galactic scale.
That's not to say that there shouldn't be people who strive to do the right thing in the 40k universe, that's necessary for many people to develop an attachment to a character. It should just be set against the backdrop that the universe itself is fethed up. What this usually means is that a story that fits the aesthetic of the 40k universe should probably involve 'good guys' at a relatively low power level, and always struggling against some antagonistic power from their own side. Gaunts Ghosts is a prime example.
Oh, and if you're interested in formats of stories, and as a bit of an explanation that I don't actually believe that conflict is strictly necessary for a plot to be interesting, there's this interesting thought-piece about a type of writing that's popular in the East that's fundamentally different to the very Western idea of plots revolving around conflict: http://stilleatingoranges.tumblr.com/post/25153960313/the-significance-of-plot-without-conflict
So, it can certainly be done. I just don't feel that it fits the feel of the 40k universe particularly well.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Master of Mankind implied he was just your average everyday immortal psychic born 4000 years before the birth of Christ. It has a story about his uncle killing his father (IIRC).
But it's the Emperor himself telling that story so he might be lying.
He's always been embarrassed about being the gestalt of 1000 naked guys popping mushrooms.
Master of Mankin d does not contridict that story though. one os simply "how he lived his early life" the other is "how he got his powers"
All of this IIRC but the original Realms of Chaos books described it as the shamen of the Earth getting together, fusing their powers and in their place was the New Man, who would become the Emperor.
Master of Mankind opened with the Emperor as a child avenging his father's death at the hands of his uncle.
The two could be squared with just a bit of work, when you have reincarnation, super powers and unreliable narrators anything can happen. But they're pretty different without adding some bridge.
Kdash wrote: So, genuine questions here as i'm more up to date with HH lore than 40k lore....
What is stopping the webway tear caused by Magnus being repaired by the Eldar? Thus freeing up forces and focus?
Master of Mankind pretty much said the Eldar did not build the webway, they just used it.
Even so they might not be able to.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just Tony wrote: What about Dorn? He was almost brought the Imperium to civil war again by refusing to break up his Legion. Is that not another source of "interesting" friction?
It was more of a halfhanded eyeroll at the thought that every story is "dull" or "boring" unless everybody is doing gakky things to everybody. Kind of how everybody is a bastard, just lesser degrees of being a bastard.
Um Dorns Skeleton is hanging in the Imperial Fist's battle barge and the bones are used for scrimshaw practice (per Ian Watson's Space Marine). While Johnson is just sitting in the closet (or running around being Cypher, or BOTH!) Dorn is pretty much dead, dead, D-E-A-D.
Sure it could be reconned (that was my identical cousin's clone's skeleton!) but it's more of a reach. Even Guilliman's return was plausible (in a comic book sort of way) but Dorn coming back would be a Bobby Ewing in the Shower sort of @#$% you to fans.
It was a halfhanded stab at the thought that stories are "dull" or "boring" unless someone is doing something absolutely gakky to someone else. Or like how everyone is an evil bastard, just some are less evil bastards.
Not necessarily boring (although I'd definitely use that term), more...unfitting to the 40k universe.
My thoughts on the matter is that the world is chock full of stories about goody goody heroes doing heroic things to clearly defined baddies. There's nothing inherently wrong about that, it's the basis of 95% of the whole superhero genre. However, it is really, really samey if you keep encountering it everywhere you go.
It feels genuinely refreshing to read about shades of grey characters that aren't all super-heroic or saturday morning cartoon villains. Although 40k does tend to slip into that relatively frequently it does at least try to veer away from that. Especially in the older fluff.
The reason it feels refreshing is that it feels realistic compared to the black and white alternative. In the real world, you very rarely get people who are just evil for evil's sake like the majority of supervillain type characters. If you do, they tend to be of the psychopathic serial-killer variety and their kill counts (while awful for the people involved) tend to be a little...pathetic...compared to the truly evil people in the world. Dozens maybe?
The truly evil people in the world. Dictators like Hitler, Stalin and Mao. They killed millions just of their own people. What marks them as different is that they thought what they were doing is the right thing. They thought that they were the 'good guys'. In fact, the fact that they're pinned as 'bad guys' is probably more to do with the fact that they lost than what they did. Even the 'good guys' have done some pretty horrific things. The Americans hit two Japanese cities, full of innocent civilians, with nuclear weapons. Us British actually invented concentration camps during the Boer War, and have a pretty appalling history of treatment of native peoples during the colonial era.
By mirroring that dynamic of 'people who truly believe that their side is right doing horrendous things in the name of that righteous cause', 40k with all its ridiculously unrealistic medieval combat in space with daemons and cockney-fungus aliens manages to feel more realistic than 95% of the entire comic book genre, which has perhaps only one big lie to suspend your disbelief over. Especially when set in the context that the whole universe is irreparably gakked by countless apocalypses, one of which created extradimensional beings that engineer horribleness on a galactic scale.
That's not to say that there shouldn't be people who strive to do the right thing in the 40k universe, that's necessary for many people to develop an attachment to a character. It should just be set against the backdrop that the universe itself is fethed up. What this usually means is that a story that fits the aesthetic of the 40k universe should probably involve 'good guys' at a relatively low power level, and always struggling against some antagonistic power from their own side. Gaunts Ghosts is a prime example.
Oh, and if you're interested in formats of stories, and as a bit of an explanation that I don't actually believe that conflict is strictly necessary for a plot to be interesting, there's this interesting thought-piece about a type of writing that's popular in the East that's fundamentally different to the very Western idea of plots revolving around conflict: http://stilleatingoranges.tumblr.com/post/25153960313/the-significance-of-plot-without-conflict
So, it can certainly be done. I just don't feel that it fits the feel of the 40k universe particularly well.
Yet, if EVERYONE is the same tier of grey, does it not get boring as well? That, and there are more than a few examples of altruistic people/peoples in our own world, the fact that those kinds of people are quashed in modern 40K or even WFB was more than a little "boring". Here's a great example:
GW: Here is our new race, the Tau. They have high technology, work for the Greater Good, lack psychic powers and can't be corrupted by Chaos!
Vocal fans online: What? Altruism?!? IN MY fething GRIMDARK?!?!?!?!?!??!?!!?!?!?!?!
GW: Hey, here's the updated codex, they are now mind controlling bastards and just as grimdark and morally bankrupt as everyone else!!!!!!!!!!!!
Vocal fans online: Well, at least that's fixed. It'd get boring pretty quick if every faction wasn't the same.
I can't wrap my head around that. Without at least SOME light, the dark storylines/tones just blend together in this black landscape of nothingness. I'm not enough of a nihilist to look forward to that sort of storytelling map.
No, the insidious and suspicious nature of the Ethereal caste was there from the get go....
40k is a game of grey shades. The Primarch's may well have been great statesmen - but none of them had any qualms about donning the Xenocidal Maniac cap when it came to it. Indeed, only Vulkan really gave much of a hoot for mortal men and women.
From the expected storytelling angle you'd be correct. However, 40k is about simple survival for the particular dudes that you identify with. There's no need for them to be any different from any other faction, only that they're yours. This is the philosophy on both an army-building level, and also on a wider faction level.
Each faction is designed to be appealing in their own way to different viewpoints, and each has their positive traits which allow people to identify with them, and their negative traits which allow others to vilify them.
Hence shades of grey. They're all roughly the same level of moral bankruptness, but in different ways that appeal to different people.
You are right though, it's important for each faction to have at least some lightness to them. Just as important as it is for them to have commensurate darkness to balance that out. Each person needs to be able to defend why their chosen faction is doing the right thing, and also why the factions they have not chosen aren't.
It's not a case of 'everyone is evil'. It's a case of 'everyone is doing what they believe is the right thing to do, and everyone could well be right but could also be very, very wrong, and no-one agrees in the slightest what the right thing to actually do is because the universe is fethed up so much'.
As for the Tau, their balance was always 'not being xenocidal maniacs vs losing every ounce of individual freedom'. It's just that people didn't quite get that vibe from them so much so they hit it with the Orwellian sledgehammer to get the point across.
So you could look at it as the Tau and the Imperium being equally 'good' or equally 'evil', but one appeals to people who prefer coexistence at the price of control over your own destiny, and the other appeals to people who value their freedom slightly (although not much) higher.
Meanwhile Chaos is for people who actually value individual freedom, to the point that you're willing to get into bed with lovecraftian entities and sacrifice your fellow man to make it happen. Compared to the Imperium you could say that at least the Imperium are living under other humans' rule, rather than thirsting gods.
Tyranids you trade being a ravenous hegemonising swarm for being probably the only actually innocent beings in the galaxy (all you're following is the natural desire to propagate oneself). The Eldar (of both varieties) trade being manipulative d*cks and sadistic bastards for a tragic backstory that justifies that behavious (to some). The Necrons trade wanting to wipe out all life for an even more tragic backstory. (Oldcrons mind, I wouldn't touch Newcrons with a barge pole). The Orks trade being the most single-mindedly bloodthirsty faction in the galaxy (impressive when that galaxy contains Khorne Berserkers) for being designed that way...and comedic while you're doing it.
Pick yours. Emphasise the bits you like. Justify the bits that are more questionable and go out and try to survive in a universe where every conceivable apocalypse turned out in the worst possible way
I'd actually say Orks are the most morally neutral.
They fight because it's ingrained into them at a genetic level. The more they fight, the bigger they get. The bigger they get, the better fights they can pick.
That their opponents are often smaller and weedier isn't much of a concern - because an Ork simply cannot conceive of someone not enjoying a fight. And that goes for their entire species.
They fight because it's ingrained into them at a genetic level. The more they fight, the bigger they get. The bigger they get, the better fights they can pick.
That their opponents are often smaller and weedier isn't much of a concern - because an Ork simply cannot conceive of someone not enjoying a fight. And that goes for their entire species.
See this is what I'm on about by painting everything as shades of grey it helps tease out how you actually feel about individual facets of morality. It's actually quite fascinating really.
For the Mad Doc here, having 'evil' hard-coded at the genetic level is something that justifies their worse acts. It might not excuse someone in the real world, but in the grimdark world of 40k that's the Mad Doc's line in the sand. Another person may well think that it doesn't really matter whether you're hardcoded to do something or not, slaughtering innocents is evil whichever way you cut it.
For me (an Eldar fan), the fact that they are a race teetering on the brink, forced to commit some pretty heinous acts simply to survive, justifies what they do. For others, they've had their time and should just give it up and die already. They messed up big and should pay the price and stop wasting everyone's time and just pass the torch to the Imperium already.
If you have one faction who is unequivocally 'good' suddenly it's not a choice you have to think about anymore. If you feel like you want to be a 'good' person, you're basically morally obliged to side with the 'good' faction.
Perhaps that's the psych degree in me coming out, but I find it really interesting
And that may work for some. Some of us, however, DO like the altruistic/noble/"good" armies. I started a Bretonnian army in 5th WFB because I liked the lore, it's also why I started a High Elf army as well. 6th came along and, while being the superior ruleset, smeared charcoal grey to flat black over the entire mythos. If I wanted to play a morally ambiguous army, I would have started Empire right out the gate. The whole "Camelot" sense of nobility appealed to me, and I like a smattering of that in ALL I do. It's officially quashed in every square inch of GW's fluff, and it's getting to the point that it's being quashed in EVERY game fiction, and most comic fiction as well. And that, my friend, is what you call dull.
As far as what GW's team will do with the storyline: End Times and AOS taught me that NOTHING is off the table.
They fight because it's ingrained into them at a genetic level. The more they fight, the bigger they get. The bigger they get, the better fights they can pick.
That their opponents are often smaller and weedier isn't much of a concern - because an Ork simply cannot conceive of someone not enjoying a fight. And that goes for their entire species.
See this is what I'm on about by painting everything as shades of grey it helps tease out how you actually feel about individual facets of morality. It's actually quite fascinating really.
For the Mad Doc here, having 'evil' hard-coded at the genetic level is something that justifies their worse acts. It might not excuse someone in the real world, but in the grimdark world of 40k that's the Mad Doc's line in the sand. Another person may well think that it doesn't really matter whether you're hardcoded to do something or not, slaughtering innocents is evil whichever way you cut it.
For me (an Eldar fan), the fact that they are a race teetering on the brink, forced to commit some pretty heinous acts simply to survive, justifies what they do. For others, they've had their time and should just give it up and die already. They messed up big and should pay the price and stop wasting everyone's time and just pass the torch to the Imperium already.
If you have one faction who is unequivocally 'good' suddenly it's not a choice you have to think about anymore. If you feel like you want to be a 'good' person, you're basically morally obliged to side with the 'good' faction.
Perhaps that's the psych degree in me coming out, but I find it really interesting
I really don't think that Orks can be described as evil. Their morality, within their own species, is absolute. The Biggest Is Da Boss. And as a true meritocracy, any Boy has the potential to become Boss. Even Grots accept their place, downtrodden as they are.
Orks simply have no concept of innocence. There's you - you're always on the way up. Then there's Bigger Than You. You have to do what They say, until you're big enough to clobber them, meaning they have to do what you say. After that? There's Smaller Than You. And they have to do what you say, because that's just how you properly order a society. Weedy 'Umies can give you a good scrap, but when you take over their planet, they're ded useful for doing stuff you don't trust a Grot with, and can't be bothered with yourself. That the conditions you force them to work in are hazardous just doesn't occur to You. If they're tough enough, surely they'll thrive, because that's what happens with Orks.
There's just no room for introspection in the Orky psyche.
Same goes for the other species, just in different ways. Dark Eldar, being the remnants of the original Aeldari truly, genuinely consider other species to be lesser - little more than chattel. When you look at how we humans regularly treat animals, particularly food breeds? There's really bugger all difference at the end of the day.
Craftworld Eldar are arguably a little more civilised. But where Dark Eldar will raid a planet for slaves/stock because they have to, Craftworld Eldar think nothing of slaughtering a planet's population because they've got a strong suspicion it'll stop Dave stubbing his toe three weeks on Friday. The core value is little different to their Dark Kin. They're just a little more refined in their own minds.
Necrons? Necrons are literally insane - and like all good insane people, they don't even know it.
All you need to do is convince yourself you're fighting the good fight. You only need to look at religious wars in mankind's history to see that (and sadly, that continues to this very day.)
Isn't "The Emperor is a collective Shaman Psyker Gestalt" not necessarily Cannon anymore?
Generally, the rule with the type of loose canon(lol) that 40k has is that stuff is canon unless it's contradicted by newer stuff. AFAIK, we haven't gotten another origin story for the Emperor, so his origin as the collective consciousness of thousands of shaman psykers from ~50k years in the past is still the official story.
Agreed, this fluff has not been retconned as far as I know. Horus mentions that Emperor telling him of his own childhood in Anatolia which squares with the Shaman-synergy fluff. Even Master of Mankind still fits. It does not explicitly mention the Shamen but it does not contradict them either.
Old fluff remains valid until invalidated. I don't think it has an expiry date.
Um Dorns Skeleton is hanging in the Imperial Fist's battle barge and the bones are used for scrimshaw practice (per Ian Watson's Space Marine). While Johnson is just sitting in the closet (or running around being Cypher, or BOTH!) Dorn is pretty much dead, dead, D-E-A-D.
This is one bit of fluff that has actually been retconned. Dorn's body was never found, only his skeletal hands were recovered from the Sword of Sacrilege.
Spoiler:
This is pretty ironic considering that Dorn cuts off Alpharius's hands in their duel at the end of Praetorian of Dorn. I wonder if the implication is that Dorn's death was somehow engineered by Omegon in revenge for his twin's death with Dorn's hands being left deliberately since Alpharius was denied acknowledgment in death by Dorn.
Just Tony wrote: And that may work for some. Some of us, however, DO like the altruistic/noble/"good" armies. I started a Bretonnian army in 5th WFB because I liked the lore, it's also why I started a High Elf army as well. 6th came along and, while being the superior ruleset, smeared charcoal grey to flat black over the entire mythos. If I wanted to play a morally ambiguous army, I would have started Empire right out the gate. The whole "Camelot" sense of nobility appealed to me, and I like a smattering of that in ALL I do. It's officially quashed in every square inch of GW's fluff, and it's getting to the point that it's being quashed in EVERY game fiction, and most comic fiction as well. And that, my friend, is what you call dull.
Absolutely fair enough, and it's your prerogative to interpret the 40k universe however you wish it's one of the best features about it compared to many other IPs. By stating that 'nothing is canon, but everything might be', it gives you the freedom to interpret any given piece of fluff as best fits your enjoyment of it.
Oh, and it's crap what they did to Brettonian fans. My condolences.
I really don't think that Orks can be described as evil. Their morality, within their own species, is absolute. The Biggest Is Da Boss. And as a true meritocracy, any Boy has the potential to become Boss. Even Grots accept their place, downtrodden as they are.
Orks simply have no concept of innocence. There's you - you're always on the way up. Then there's Bigger Than You. You have to do what They say, until you're big enough to clobber them, meaning they have to do what you say. After that? There's Smaller Than You. And they have to do what you say, because that's just how you properly order a society. Weedy 'Umies can give you a good scrap, but when you take over their planet, they're ded useful for doing stuff you don't trust a Grot with, and can't be bothered with yourself. That the conditions you force them to work in are hazardous just doesn't occur to You. If they're tough enough, surely they'll thrive, because that's what happens with Orks.
There's just no room for introspection in the Orky psyche.
Same goes for the other species, just in different ways. Dark Eldar, being the remnants of the original Aeldari truly, genuinely consider other species to be lesser - little more than chattel. When you look at how we humans regularly treat animals, particularly food breeds? There's really bugger all difference at the end of the day.
Craftworld Eldar are arguably a little more civilised. But where Dark Eldar will raid a planet for slaves/stock because they have to, Craftworld Eldar think nothing of slaughtering a planet's population because they've got a strong suspicion it'll stop Dave stubbing his toe three weeks on Friday. The core value is little different to their Dark Kin. They're just a little more refined in their own minds.
Necrons? Necrons are literally insane - and like all good insane people, they don't even know it.
All you need to do is convince yourself you're fighting the good fight. You only need to look at religious wars in mankind's history to see that (and sadly, that continues to this very day.)
Very good points I'll agree that within their morality Orks are perfectly righteous, and their society has some definite egalitarian qualities that mankind's in the 41st millennium sorely lacks.
Funny you mention meritocracy and the Dark Eldar next to each other, as that's the fundamental tenet of Dark Eldar society. The strong rule, and may impose whatever they desire over the weak. It's their core morality, which they apply both within and without their culture. Any vat-born chattel may rise through their own cunning to rule over their entire species (as exemplified and instigated by Vect), and in their eyes their species is the pinnacle of all so they can impose whatever they want with the lesser species of the galaxy. Even those lesser species can earn an honoured place among their society if they prove themselves useful enough. Just look at the Sslyth.
It says something about a fictional universe when the two most egalitarian and 'enlightened' societies when it comes to social mobility are a galaxy-wide superweapon of intelligent fungus dedicated solely towards conflict, and a bunch of sadistic hyper-elitist space elves that subsist primarily on torture.
They fight because it's ingrained into them at a genetic level. The more they fight, the bigger they get. The bigger they get, the better fights they can pick.
That their opponents are often smaller and weedier isn't much of a concern - because an Ork simply cannot conceive of someone not enjoying a fight. And that goes for their entire species.
See this is what I'm on about by painting everything as shades of grey it helps tease out how you actually feel about individual facets of morality. It's actually quite fascinating really.
For the Mad Doc here, having 'evil' hard-coded at the genetic level is something that justifies their worse acts. It might not excuse someone in the real world, but in the grimdark world of 40k that's the Mad Doc's line in the sand. Another person may well think that it doesn't really matter whether you're hardcoded to do something or not, slaughtering innocents is evil whichever way you cut it.
For me (an Eldar fan), the fact that they are a race teetering on the brink, forced to commit some pretty heinous acts simply to survive, justifies what they do. For others, they've had their time and should just give it up and die already. They messed up big and should pay the price and stop wasting everyone's time and just pass the torch to the Imperium already.
If you have one faction who is unequivocally 'good' suddenly it's not a choice you have to think about anymore. If you feel like you want to be a 'good' person, you're basically morally obliged to side with the 'good' faction.
Perhaps that's the psych degree in me coming out, but I find it really interesting
I really don't think that Orks can be described as evil. Their morality, within their own species, is absolute. The Biggest Is Da Boss. And as a true meritocracy, any Boy has the potential to become Boss. Even Grots accept their place, downtrodden as they are.
Orks simply have no concept of innocence. There's you - you're always on the way up. Then there's Bigger Than You. You have to do what They say, until you're big enough to clobber them, meaning they have to do what you say. After that? There's Smaller Than You. And they have to do what you say, because that's just how you properly order a society. Weedy 'Umies can give you a good scrap, but when you take over their planet, they're ded useful for doing stuff you don't trust a Grot with, and can't be bothered with yourself. That the conditions you force them to work in are hazardous just doesn't occur to You. If they're tough enough, surely they'll thrive, because that's what happens with Orks.
There's just no room for introspection in the Orky psyche.
Same goes for the other species, just in different ways. Dark Eldar, being the remnants of the original Aeldari truly, genuinely consider other species to be lesser - little more than chattel. When you look at how we humans regularly treat animals, particularly food breeds? There's really bugger all difference at the end of the day.
Craftworld Eldar are arguably a little more civilised. But where Dark Eldar will raid a planet for slaves/stock because they have to, Craftworld Eldar think nothing of slaughtering a planet's population because they've got a strong suspicion it'll stop Dave stubbing his toe three weeks on Friday. The core value is little different to their Dark Kin. They're just a little more refined in their own minds.
Necrons? Necrons are literally insane - and like all good insane people, they don't even know it.
All you need to do is convince yourself you're fighting the good fight. You only need to look at religious wars in mankind's history to see that (and sadly, that continues to this very day.)
Is it any wonder the Eldar think humans can't handle the truth?
anything that ups the mystery factor of Cypher is good by me 
