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Kid_Kyoto wrote: Master of Mankind implied he was just your average everyday immortal psychic born 4000 years before the birth of Christ. It has a story about his uncle killing his father (IIRC).
But it's the Emperor himself telling that story so he might be lying.
He's always been embarrassed about being the gestalt of 1000 naked guys popping mushrooms.
Master of Mankin d does not contridict that story though. one os simply "how he lived his early life" the other is "how he got his powers"
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Eldenfirefly wrote: I don't get what Gulliman was so disappointed about. He was well and alive after the Emperor was transferred to the golden throne. He was alive for many many years after that before he went into stasis from the wound he received. The emperor is still there in his barely alive state on the golden throne even after 10,000 years. What has changed to make him feel any different?
Gulliman should be perfectly clear and aware of the state of the Emperor even before he went into stasis.
I like to believe the Emperor never actually spoke to Guilliman, and he just stood there in silence with his head down. Think of it as a PR stunt. Guilliman knew it'd be better to lead the Imperium with the Emperor's "blessing" than it would be to admit they never communicated because the Emperor Is practically dead
123ply: Dataslate- 4/4/3/3/1/3/1/8/6+
Autopistol, Steel Extendo, Puma Hoodie
USRs: "Preferred Enemy: Xenos"
"Hatred: Xenos"
"Racist and Proud of it" - Gains fleshbane, rending, rage, counter-attack, and X2 strength and toughness when locked in combat with units not in the "Imperium of Man" faction.
Kdash wrote: So, genuine questions here as i'm more up to date with HH lore than 40k lore....
What is stopping the webway tear caused by Magnus being repaired by the Eldar? Thus freeing up forces and focus?
Master of Mankind pretty much said the Eldar did not build the webway, they just used it.
Even so they might not be able to.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just Tony wrote: What about Dorn? He was almost brought the Imperium to civil war again by refusing to break up his Legion. Is that not another source of "interesting" friction?
It was more of a halfhanded eyeroll at the thought that every story is "dull" or "boring" unless everybody is doing gakky things to everybody. Kind of how everybody is a bastard, just lesser degrees of being a bastard.
Um Dorns Skeleton is hanging in the Imperial Fist's battle barge and the bones are used for scrimshaw practice (per Ian Watson's Space Marine). While Johnson is just sitting in the closet (or running around being Cypher, or BOTH!) Dorn is pretty much dead, dead, D-E-A-D.
Sure it could be reconned (that was my identical cousin's clone's skeleton!) but it's more of a reach. Even Guilliman's return was plausible (in a comic book sort of way) but Dorn coming back would be a Bobby Ewing in the Shower sort of @#$% you to fans.
It was a halfhanded stab at the thought that stories are "dull" or "boring" unless someone is doing something absolutely gakky to someone else. Or like how everyone is an evil bastard, just some are less evil bastards.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/30 01:39:21
Kdash wrote: So, genuine questions here as i'm more up to date with HH lore than 40k lore....
What is stopping the webway tear caused by Magnus being repaired by the Eldar? Thus freeing up forces and focus?
Master of Mankind pretty much said the Eldar did not build the webway, they just used it.
Even so they might not be able to.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just Tony wrote: What about Dorn? He was almost brought the Imperium to civil war again by refusing to break up his Legion. Is that not another source of "interesting" friction?
It was more of a halfhanded eyeroll at the thought that every story is "dull" or "boring" unless everybody is doing gakky things to everybody. Kind of how everybody is a bastard, just lesser degrees of being a bastard.
Um Dorns Skeleton is hanging in the Imperial Fist's battle barge and the bones are used for scrimshaw practice (per Ian Watson's Space Marine). While Johnson is just sitting in the closet (or running around being Cypher, or BOTH!) Dorn is pretty much dead, dead, D-E-A-D.
Sure it could be reconned (that was my identical cousin's clone's skeleton!) but it's more of a reach. Even Guilliman's return was plausible (in a comic book sort of way) but Dorn coming back would be a Bobby Ewing in the Shower sort of @#$% you to fans.
It was a halfhanded stab at the thought that stories are "dull" or "boring" unless someone is doing something absolutely gakky to someone else. Or like how everyone is an evil bastard, just some are less evil bastards.
Not necessarily boring (although I'd definitely use that term), more...unfitting to the 40k universe.
My thoughts on the matter is that the world is chock full of stories about goody goody heroes doing heroic things to clearly defined baddies. There's nothing inherently wrong about that, it's the basis of 95% of the whole superhero genre. However, it is really, really samey if you keep encountering it everywhere you go.
It feels genuinely refreshing to read about shades of grey characters that aren't all super-heroic or saturday morning cartoon villains. Although 40k does tend to slip into that relatively frequently it does at least try to veer away from that. Especially in the older fluff.
The reason it feels refreshing is that it feels realistic compared to the black and white alternative. In the real world, you very rarely get people who are just evil for evil's sake like the majority of supervillain type characters. If you do, they tend to be of the psychopathic serial-killer variety and their kill counts (while awful for the people involved) tend to be a little...pathetic...compared to the truly evil people in the world. Dozens maybe?
The truly evil people in the world. Dictators like Hitler, Stalin and Mao. They killed millions just of their own people. What marks them as different is that they thought what they were doing is the right thing. They thought that they were the 'good guys'. In fact, the fact that they're pinned as 'bad guys' is probably more to do with the fact that they lost than what they did. Even the 'good guys' have done some pretty horrific things. The Americans hit two Japanese cities, full of innocent civilians, with nuclear weapons. Us British actually invented concentration camps during the Boer War, and have a pretty appalling history of treatment of native peoples during the colonial era.
By mirroring that dynamic of 'people who truly believe that their side is right doing horrendous things in the name of that righteous cause', 40k with all its ridiculously unrealistic medieval combat in space with daemons and cockney-fungus aliens manages to feel more realistic than 95% of the entire comic book genre, which has perhaps only one big lie to suspend your disbelief over. Especially when set in the context that the whole universe is irreparably gakked by countless apocalypses, one of which created extradimensional beings that engineer horribleness on a galactic scale.
That's not to say that there shouldn't be people who strive to do the right thing in the 40k universe, that's necessary for many people to develop an attachment to a character. It should just be set against the backdrop that the universe itself is fethed up. What this usually means is that a story that fits the aesthetic of the 40k universe should probably involve 'good guys' at a relatively low power level, and always struggling against some antagonistic power from their own side. Gaunts Ghosts is a prime example.
Oh, and if you're interested in formats of stories, and as a bit of an explanation that I don't actually believe that conflict is strictly necessary for a plot to be interesting, there's this interesting thought-piece about a type of writing that's popular in the East that's fundamentally different to the very Western idea of plots revolving around conflict: http://stilleatingoranges.tumblr.com/post/25153960313/the-significance-of-plot-without-conflict
So, it can certainly be done. I just don't feel that it fits the feel of the 40k universe particularly well.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Master of Mankind implied he was just your average everyday immortal psychic born 4000 years before the birth of Christ. It has a story about his uncle killing his father (IIRC).
But it's the Emperor himself telling that story so he might be lying.
He's always been embarrassed about being the gestalt of 1000 naked guys popping mushrooms.
Master of Mankin d does not contridict that story though. one os simply "how he lived his early life" the other is "how he got his powers"
All of this IIRC but the original Realms of Chaos books described it as the shamen of the Earth getting together, fusing their powers and in their place was the New Man, who would become the Emperor.
Master of Mankind opened with the Emperor as a child avenging his father's death at the hands of his uncle.
The two could be squared with just a bit of work, when you have reincarnation, super powers and unreliable narrators anything can happen. But they're pretty different without adding some bridge.
Kdash wrote: So, genuine questions here as i'm more up to date with HH lore than 40k lore....
What is stopping the webway tear caused by Magnus being repaired by the Eldar? Thus freeing up forces and focus?
Master of Mankind pretty much said the Eldar did not build the webway, they just used it.
Even so they might not be able to.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just Tony wrote: What about Dorn? He was almost brought the Imperium to civil war again by refusing to break up his Legion. Is that not another source of "interesting" friction?
It was more of a halfhanded eyeroll at the thought that every story is "dull" or "boring" unless everybody is doing gakky things to everybody. Kind of how everybody is a bastard, just lesser degrees of being a bastard.
Um Dorns Skeleton is hanging in the Imperial Fist's battle barge and the bones are used for scrimshaw practice (per Ian Watson's Space Marine). While Johnson is just sitting in the closet (or running around being Cypher, or BOTH!) Dorn is pretty much dead, dead, D-E-A-D.
Sure it could be reconned (that was my identical cousin's clone's skeleton!) but it's more of a reach. Even Guilliman's return was plausible (in a comic book sort of way) but Dorn coming back would be a Bobby Ewing in the Shower sort of @#$% you to fans.
It was a halfhanded stab at the thought that stories are "dull" or "boring" unless someone is doing something absolutely gakky to someone else. Or like how everyone is an evil bastard, just some are less evil bastards.
Not necessarily boring (although I'd definitely use that term), more...unfitting to the 40k universe.
My thoughts on the matter is that the world is chock full of stories about goody goody heroes doing heroic things to clearly defined baddies. There's nothing inherently wrong about that, it's the basis of 95% of the whole superhero genre. However, it is really, really samey if you keep encountering it everywhere you go.
It feels genuinely refreshing to read about shades of grey characters that aren't all super-heroic or saturday morning cartoon villains. Although 40k does tend to slip into that relatively frequently it does at least try to veer away from that. Especially in the older fluff.
The reason it feels refreshing is that it feels realistic compared to the black and white alternative. In the real world, you very rarely get people who are just evil for evil's sake like the majority of supervillain type characters. If you do, they tend to be of the psychopathic serial-killer variety and their kill counts (while awful for the people involved) tend to be a little...pathetic...compared to the truly evil people in the world. Dozens maybe?
The truly evil people in the world. Dictators like Hitler, Stalin and Mao. They killed millions just of their own people. What marks them as different is that they thought what they were doing is the right thing. They thought that they were the 'good guys'. In fact, the fact that they're pinned as 'bad guys' is probably more to do with the fact that they lost than what they did. Even the 'good guys' have done some pretty horrific things. The Americans hit two Japanese cities, full of innocent civilians, with nuclear weapons. Us British actually invented concentration camps during the Boer War, and have a pretty appalling history of treatment of native peoples during the colonial era.
By mirroring that dynamic of 'people who truly believe that their side is right doing horrendous things in the name of that righteous cause', 40k with all its ridiculously unrealistic medieval combat in space with daemons and cockney-fungus aliens manages to feel more realistic than 95% of the entire comic book genre, which has perhaps only one big lie to suspend your disbelief over. Especially when set in the context that the whole universe is irreparably gakked by countless apocalypses, one of which created extradimensional beings that engineer horribleness on a galactic scale.
That's not to say that there shouldn't be people who strive to do the right thing in the 40k universe, that's necessary for many people to develop an attachment to a character. It should just be set against the backdrop that the universe itself is fethed up. What this usually means is that a story that fits the aesthetic of the 40k universe should probably involve 'good guys' at a relatively low power level, and always struggling against some antagonistic power from their own side. Gaunts Ghosts is a prime example.
Oh, and if you're interested in formats of stories, and as a bit of an explanation that I don't actually believe that conflict is strictly necessary for a plot to be interesting, there's this interesting thought-piece about a type of writing that's popular in the East that's fundamentally different to the very Western idea of plots revolving around conflict: http://stilleatingoranges.tumblr.com/post/25153960313/the-significance-of-plot-without-conflict
So, it can certainly be done. I just don't feel that it fits the feel of the 40k universe particularly well.
Yet, if EVERYONE is the same tier of grey, does it not get boring as well? That, and there are more than a few examples of altruistic people/peoples in our own world, the fact that those kinds of people are quashed in modern 40K or even WFB was more than a little "boring". Here's a great example:
GW: Here is our new race, the Tau. They have high technology, work for the Greater Good, lack psychic powers and can't be corrupted by Chaos!
Vocal fans online: What? Altruism?!? IN MY fething GRIMDARK?!?!?!?!?!??!?!!?!?!?!?!
GW: Hey, here's the updated codex, they are now mind controlling bastards and just as grimdark and morally bankrupt as everyone else!!!!!!!!!!!!
Vocal fans online: Well, at least that's fixed. It'd get boring pretty quick if every faction wasn't the same.
I can't wrap my head around that. Without at least SOME light, the dark storylines/tones just blend together in this black landscape of nothingness. I'm not enough of a nihilist to look forward to that sort of storytelling map.
No, the insidious and suspicious nature of the Ethereal caste was there from the get go....
40k is a game of grey shades. The Primarch's may well have been great statesmen - but none of them had any qualms about donning the Xenocidal Maniac cap when it came to it. Indeed, only Vulkan really gave much of a hoot for mortal men and women.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
From the expected storytelling angle you'd be correct. However, 40k is about simple survival for the particular dudes that you identify with. There's no need for them to be any different from any other faction, only that they're yours. This is the philosophy on both an army-building level, and also on a wider faction level.
Each faction is designed to be appealing in their own way to different viewpoints, and each has their positive traits which allow people to identify with them, and their negative traits which allow others to vilify them.
Hence shades of grey. They're all roughly the same level of moral bankruptness, but in different ways that appeal to different people.
You are right though, it's important for each faction to have at least some lightness to them. Just as important as it is for them to have commensurate darkness to balance that out. Each person needs to be able to defend why their chosen faction is doing the right thing, and also why the factions they have not chosen aren't.
It's not a case of 'everyone is evil'. It's a case of 'everyone is doing what they believe is the right thing to do, and everyone could well be right but could also be very, very wrong, and no-one agrees in the slightest what the right thing to actually do is because the universe is fethed up so much'.
As for the Tau, their balance was always 'not being xenocidal maniacs vs losing every ounce of individual freedom'. It's just that people didn't quite get that vibe from them so much so they hit it with the Orwellian sledgehammer to get the point across.
So you could look at it as the Tau and the Imperium being equally 'good' or equally 'evil', but one appeals to people who prefer coexistence at the price of control over your own destiny, and the other appeals to people who value their freedom slightly (although not much) higher.
Meanwhile Chaos is for people who actually value individual freedom, to the point that you're willing to get into bed with lovecraftian entities and sacrifice your fellow man to make it happen. Compared to the Imperium you could say that at least the Imperium are living under other humans' rule, rather than thirsting gods.
Tyranids you trade being a ravenous hegemonising swarm for being probably the only actually innocent beings in the galaxy (all you're following is the natural desire to propagate oneself). The Eldar (of both varieties) trade being manipulative d*cks and sadistic bastards for a tragic backstory that justifies that behavious (to some). The Necrons trade wanting to wipe out all life for an even more tragic backstory. (Oldcrons mind, I wouldn't touch Newcrons with a barge pole). The Orks trade being the most single-mindedly bloodthirsty faction in the galaxy (impressive when that galaxy contains Khorne Berserkers) for being designed that way...and comedic while you're doing it.
Pick yours. Emphasise the bits you like. Justify the bits that are more questionable and go out and try to survive in a universe where every conceivable apocalypse turned out in the worst possible way
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/30 13:22:44
I'd actually say Orks are the most morally neutral.
They fight because it's ingrained into them at a genetic level. The more they fight, the bigger they get. The bigger they get, the better fights they can pick.
That their opponents are often smaller and weedier isn't much of a concern - because an Ork simply cannot conceive of someone not enjoying a fight. And that goes for their entire species.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
They fight because it's ingrained into them at a genetic level. The more they fight, the bigger they get. The bigger they get, the better fights they can pick.
That their opponents are often smaller and weedier isn't much of a concern - because an Ork simply cannot conceive of someone not enjoying a fight. And that goes for their entire species.
See this is what I'm on about by painting everything as shades of grey it helps tease out how you actually feel about individual facets of morality. It's actually quite fascinating really.
For the Mad Doc here, having 'evil' hard-coded at the genetic level is something that justifies their worse acts. It might not excuse someone in the real world, but in the grimdark world of 40k that's the Mad Doc's line in the sand. Another person may well think that it doesn't really matter whether you're hardcoded to do something or not, slaughtering innocents is evil whichever way you cut it.
For me (an Eldar fan), the fact that they are a race teetering on the brink, forced to commit some pretty heinous acts simply to survive, justifies what they do. For others, they've had their time and should just give it up and die already. They messed up big and should pay the price and stop wasting everyone's time and just pass the torch to the Imperium already.
If you have one faction who is unequivocally 'good' suddenly it's not a choice you have to think about anymore. If you feel like you want to be a 'good' person, you're basically morally obliged to side with the 'good' faction.
Perhaps that's the psych degree in me coming out, but I find it really interesting
And that may work for some. Some of us, however, DO like the altruistic/noble/"good" armies. I started a Bretonnian army in 5th WFB because I liked the lore, it's also why I started a High Elf army as well. 6th came along and, while being the superior ruleset, smeared charcoal grey to flat black over the entire mythos. If I wanted to play a morally ambiguous army, I would have started Empire right out the gate. The whole "Camelot" sense of nobility appealed to me, and I like a smattering of that in ALL I do. It's officially quashed in every square inch of GW's fluff, and it's getting to the point that it's being quashed in EVERY game fiction, and most comic fiction as well. And that, my friend, is what you call dull.
As far as what GW's team will do with the storyline: End Times and AOS taught me that NOTHING is off the table.
They fight because it's ingrained into them at a genetic level. The more they fight, the bigger they get. The bigger they get, the better fights they can pick.
That their opponents are often smaller and weedier isn't much of a concern - because an Ork simply cannot conceive of someone not enjoying a fight. And that goes for their entire species.
See this is what I'm on about by painting everything as shades of grey it helps tease out how you actually feel about individual facets of morality. It's actually quite fascinating really.
For the Mad Doc here, having 'evil' hard-coded at the genetic level is something that justifies their worse acts. It might not excuse someone in the real world, but in the grimdark world of 40k that's the Mad Doc's line in the sand. Another person may well think that it doesn't really matter whether you're hardcoded to do something or not, slaughtering innocents is evil whichever way you cut it.
For me (an Eldar fan), the fact that they are a race teetering on the brink, forced to commit some pretty heinous acts simply to survive, justifies what they do. For others, they've had their time and should just give it up and die already. They messed up big and should pay the price and stop wasting everyone's time and just pass the torch to the Imperium already.
If you have one faction who is unequivocally 'good' suddenly it's not a choice you have to think about anymore. If you feel like you want to be a 'good' person, you're basically morally obliged to side with the 'good' faction.
Perhaps that's the psych degree in me coming out, but I find it really interesting
I really don't think that Orks can be described as evil. Their morality, within their own species, is absolute. The Biggest Is Da Boss. And as a true meritocracy, any Boy has the potential to become Boss. Even Grots accept their place, downtrodden as they are.
Orks simply have no concept of innocence. There's you - you're always on the way up. Then there's Bigger Than You. You have to do what They say, until you're big enough to clobber them, meaning they have to do what you say. After that? There's Smaller Than You. And they have to do what you say, because that's just how you properly order a society. Weedy 'Umies can give you a good scrap, but when you take over their planet, they're ded useful for doing stuff you don't trust a Grot with, and can't be bothered with yourself. That the conditions you force them to work in are hazardous just doesn't occur to You. If they're tough enough, surely they'll thrive, because that's what happens with Orks.
There's just no room for introspection in the Orky psyche.
Same goes for the other species, just in different ways. Dark Eldar, being the remnants of the original Aeldari truly, genuinely consider other species to be lesser - little more than chattel. When you look at how we humans regularly treat animals, particularly food breeds? There's really bugger all difference at the end of the day.
Craftworld Eldar are arguably a little more civilised. But where Dark Eldar will raid a planet for slaves/stock because they have to, Craftworld Eldar think nothing of slaughtering a planet's population because they've got a strong suspicion it'll stop Dave stubbing his toe three weeks on Friday. The core value is little different to their Dark Kin. They're just a little more refined in their own minds.
Necrons? Necrons are literally insane - and like all good insane people, they don't even know it.
All you need to do is convince yourself you're fighting the good fight. You only need to look at religious wars in mankind's history to see that (and sadly, that continues to this very day.)
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Isn't "The Emperor is a collective Shaman Psyker Gestalt" not necessarily Cannon anymore?
Generally, the rule with the type of loose canon(lol) that 40k has is that stuff is canon unless it's contradicted by newer stuff. AFAIK, we haven't gotten another origin story for the Emperor, so his origin as the collective consciousness of thousands of shaman psykers from ~50k years in the past is still the official story.
Agreed, this fluff has not been retconned as far as I know. Horus mentions that Emperor telling him of his own childhood in Anatolia which squares with the Shaman-synergy fluff. Even Master of Mankind still fits. It does not explicitly mention the Shamen but it does not contradict them either.
Old fluff remains valid until invalidated. I don't think it has an expiry date.
Um Dorns Skeleton is hanging in the Imperial Fist's battle barge and the bones are used for scrimshaw practice (per Ian Watson's Space Marine). While Johnson is just sitting in the closet (or running around being Cypher, or BOTH!) Dorn is pretty much dead, dead, D-E-A-D.
This is one bit of fluff that has actually been retconned. Dorn's body was never found, only his skeletal hands were recovered from the Sword of Sacrilege.
Spoiler:
This is pretty ironic considering that Dorn cuts off Alpharius's hands in their duel at the end of Praetorian of Dorn. I wonder if the implication is that Dorn's death was somehow engineered by Omegon in revenge for his twin's death with Dorn's hands being left deliberately since Alpharius was denied acknowledgment in death by Dorn.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/30 21:39:29
I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star.
Just Tony wrote: And that may work for some. Some of us, however, DO like the altruistic/noble/"good" armies. I started a Bretonnian army in 5th WFB because I liked the lore, it's also why I started a High Elf army as well. 6th came along and, while being the superior ruleset, smeared charcoal grey to flat black over the entire mythos. If I wanted to play a morally ambiguous army, I would have started Empire right out the gate. The whole "Camelot" sense of nobility appealed to me, and I like a smattering of that in ALL I do. It's officially quashed in every square inch of GW's fluff, and it's getting to the point that it's being quashed in EVERY game fiction, and most comic fiction as well. And that, my friend, is what you call dull.
Absolutely fair enough, and it's your prerogative to interpret the 40k universe however you wish it's one of the best features about it compared to many other IPs. By stating that 'nothing is canon, but everything might be', it gives you the freedom to interpret any given piece of fluff as best fits your enjoyment of it.
Oh, and it's crap what they did to Brettonian fans. My condolences.
I really don't think that Orks can be described as evil. Their morality, within their own species, is absolute. The Biggest Is Da Boss. And as a true meritocracy, any Boy has the potential to become Boss. Even Grots accept their place, downtrodden as they are.
Orks simply have no concept of innocence. There's you - you're always on the way up. Then there's Bigger Than You. You have to do what They say, until you're big enough to clobber them, meaning they have to do what you say. After that? There's Smaller Than You. And they have to do what you say, because that's just how you properly order a society. Weedy 'Umies can give you a good scrap, but when you take over their planet, they're ded useful for doing stuff you don't trust a Grot with, and can't be bothered with yourself. That the conditions you force them to work in are hazardous just doesn't occur to You. If they're tough enough, surely they'll thrive, because that's what happens with Orks.
There's just no room for introspection in the Orky psyche.
Same goes for the other species, just in different ways. Dark Eldar, being the remnants of the original Aeldari truly, genuinely consider other species to be lesser - little more than chattel. When you look at how we humans regularly treat animals, particularly food breeds? There's really bugger all difference at the end of the day.
Craftworld Eldar are arguably a little more civilised. But where Dark Eldar will raid a planet for slaves/stock because they have to, Craftworld Eldar think nothing of slaughtering a planet's population because they've got a strong suspicion it'll stop Dave stubbing his toe three weeks on Friday. The core value is little different to their Dark Kin. They're just a little more refined in their own minds.
Necrons? Necrons are literally insane - and like all good insane people, they don't even know it.
All you need to do is convince yourself you're fighting the good fight. You only need to look at religious wars in mankind's history to see that (and sadly, that continues to this very day.)
Very good points I'll agree that within their morality Orks are perfectly righteous, and their society has some definite egalitarian qualities that mankind's in the 41st millennium sorely lacks.
Funny you mention meritocracy and the Dark Eldar next to each other, as that's the fundamental tenet of Dark Eldar society. The strong rule, and may impose whatever they desire over the weak. It's their core morality, which they apply both within and without their culture. Any vat-born chattel may rise through their own cunning to rule over their entire species (as exemplified and instigated by Vect), and in their eyes their species is the pinnacle of all so they can impose whatever they want with the lesser species of the galaxy. Even those lesser species can earn an honoured place among their society if they prove themselves useful enough. Just look at the Sslyth.
It says something about a fictional universe when the two most egalitarian and 'enlightened' societies when it comes to social mobility are a galaxy-wide superweapon of intelligent fungus dedicated solely towards conflict, and a bunch of sadistic hyper-elitist space elves that subsist primarily on torture.
They fight because it's ingrained into them at a genetic level. The more they fight, the bigger they get. The bigger they get, the better fights they can pick.
That their opponents are often smaller and weedier isn't much of a concern - because an Ork simply cannot conceive of someone not enjoying a fight. And that goes for their entire species.
See this is what I'm on about by painting everything as shades of grey it helps tease out how you actually feel about individual facets of morality. It's actually quite fascinating really.
For the Mad Doc here, having 'evil' hard-coded at the genetic level is something that justifies their worse acts. It might not excuse someone in the real world, but in the grimdark world of 40k that's the Mad Doc's line in the sand. Another person may well think that it doesn't really matter whether you're hardcoded to do something or not, slaughtering innocents is evil whichever way you cut it.
For me (an Eldar fan), the fact that they are a race teetering on the brink, forced to commit some pretty heinous acts simply to survive, justifies what they do. For others, they've had their time and should just give it up and die already. They messed up big and should pay the price and stop wasting everyone's time and just pass the torch to the Imperium already.
If you have one faction who is unequivocally 'good' suddenly it's not a choice you have to think about anymore. If you feel like you want to be a 'good' person, you're basically morally obliged to side with the 'good' faction.
Perhaps that's the psych degree in me coming out, but I find it really interesting
I really don't think that Orks can be described as evil. Their morality, within their own species, is absolute. The Biggest Is Da Boss. And as a true meritocracy, any Boy has the potential to become Boss. Even Grots accept their place, downtrodden as they are.
Orks simply have no concept of innocence. There's you - you're always on the way up. Then there's Bigger Than You. You have to do what They say, until you're big enough to clobber them, meaning they have to do what you say. After that? There's Smaller Than You. And they have to do what you say, because that's just how you properly order a society. Weedy 'Umies can give you a good scrap, but when you take over their planet, they're ded useful for doing stuff you don't trust a Grot with, and can't be bothered with yourself. That the conditions you force them to work in are hazardous just doesn't occur to You. If they're tough enough, surely they'll thrive, because that's what happens with Orks.
There's just no room for introspection in the Orky psyche.
Same goes for the other species, just in different ways. Dark Eldar, being the remnants of the original Aeldari truly, genuinely consider other species to be lesser - little more than chattel. When you look at how we humans regularly treat animals, particularly food breeds? There's really bugger all difference at the end of the day.
Craftworld Eldar are arguably a little more civilised. But where Dark Eldar will raid a planet for slaves/stock because they have to, Craftworld Eldar think nothing of slaughtering a planet's population because they've got a strong suspicion it'll stop Dave stubbing his toe three weeks on Friday. The core value is little different to their Dark Kin. They're just a little more refined in their own minds.
Necrons? Necrons are literally insane - and like all good insane people, they don't even know it.
All you need to do is convince yourself you're fighting the good fight. You only need to look at religious wars in mankind's history to see that (and sadly, that continues to this very day.)
AM/IG - 122nd Terrax Guard: 2094/3000pts
Skitarii/Cult Mech: 1380/2000pts
Khorne Daemonkin - Host of the Nervous Knife: 1701/2000pts
Orks - Rampage Axez: 1753/2000pts 
