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BrianDavion wrote:
people love to bash on the Codex but you need to ask, what would have happened if Huron had been, instead of Master of the Astral Claws CHAPTER, Master of the Ultramarines LEGION?

Perhaps if Huron had been given the tools required to protect and expand the boundaries of the Imperium, rather than being shackled by an inept bureaucracy, he would not have rebelled.

So, genuine questions here as i'm more up to date with HH lore than 40k lore....

What is stopping the webway tear caused by Magnus being repaired by the Eldar? Thus freeing up forces and focus?

Can the Pharos and Sotha be recovered and repaired? As for what i remember its just buried in "concreate".

If both are possible, it opens up options to attempt a "turn off the throne" and see what happens if the Emperor dies, as other things will be in place.

On the eldar front, it's because the eldar are in no way friends or allies of the imperium. Not in the slightest.

The Imperium is a blunt instrument to be wielded against Chaos/Orks/'nids/Necrons/whoever, with the end result of everyone except the eldar winding up dead.

Anything the Eldar ever do is for the sole benefit of the eldar. Due to their ability to see the future with much better clarity than any other race, they can develop plans that dupe the 'lesser' races into fighting their wars for them.

That's why they resurrected Guilliman. Not to do the Imperium a favour against their mutual enemy, but to save eldar skins.

Kdash wrote:


What is stopping the webway tear caused by Magnus being repaired by the Eldar? Thus freeing up forces and focus?

If you're referring to the Webway tear on Terra then the Emperor's holding that closed. If they do it and he gets up then it's bad news for the Eldar. Last time the Emperor was walking around he tried to exterminate pretty much every xeno he came across. If they do it and he doesn't then I don't think much changes. The Psykers will still be culled for being too dangerous and there isn't any fighting done down there anymore.

Like Ynneadwraith said Eldar and Imperials aren't friends. If the Imperium gets too strong they will destroy the Eldar as eagerly as they will everyone else. If the Eldar somehow became dominant they'd likely do the same.

 Just Tony wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:I don't get what Gulliman was so disappointed about. He was well and alive after the Emperor was transferred to the golden throne. He was alive for many many years after that before he went into stasis from the wound he received. The emperor is still there in his barely alive state on the golden throne even after 10,000 years. What has changed to make him feel any different?

Gulliman should be perfectly clear and aware of the state of the Emperor even before he went into stasis.

Don't bring logic or continuity into this...

That's an interesting question actually. Applying logic, Guilliman being shocked now would imply that his father has changed since he last saw him. Which must mean that after initially being interred in the Golden Throne, the Emperor's psyche was intact, and he was able to keep up his earlier pretences to an extent.

For that to no longer be the case means that it was likely the strain of maintaining so many systems (the astronomican and holding the webway shut) over such a prolonged period of time which has driven him into madness.

 Ketara wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:I don't get what Gulliman was so disappointed about. He was well and alive after the Emperor was transferred to the golden throne. He was alive for many many years after that before he went into stasis from the wound he received. The emperor is still there in his barely alive state on the golden throne even after 10,000 years. What has changed to make him feel any different?

Gulliman should be perfectly clear and aware of the state of the Emperor even before he went into stasis.

Don't bring logic or continuity into this...

That's an interesting question actually. Applying logic, Guilliman being shocked now would imply that his father has changed since he last saw him. Which must mean that after initially being interred in the Golden Throne, the Emperor's psyche was intact, and he was able to keep up his earlier pretences to an extent.

For that to no longer be the case means that it was likely the strain of maintaining so many systems (the astronomican and holding the webway shut) over such a prolonged period of time which has driven him into madness.

IIRC Dark Imperium implied that this may have been the first time the emperor communicated with him from the throne.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
No, you don't quite understand. What if the Lion actually doesn't know who Cypher is...

Guilliman wouldn't know whether to believe the Lion or not. The Lion would get pissed that his word's not being taken. And all the while we're left with the question 'just who the hell is Cypher if even his Primarch doesn't know who he is'.

Plus the Lion coming back could create some interesting friction. He always had jealousy issues about Horus being chosen as Warmaster and was very suspicious about the whole Imperium Secundus thing. If he comes back and finds Roboute running the show while the DA Legion has been dismantled would make him one unhappy puppy.

 Karhedron wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
No, you don't quite understand. What if the Lion actually doesn't know who Cypher is...

Guilliman wouldn't know whether to believe the Lion or not. The Lion would get pissed that his word's not being taken. And all the while we're left with the question 'just who the hell is Cypher if even his Primarch doesn't know who he is'.

Plus the Lion coming back could create some interesting friction. He always had jealousy issues about Horus being chosen as Warmaster and was very suspicious about the whole Imperium Secundus thing. If he comes back and finds Roboute running the show while the DA Legion has been dismantled would make him one unhappy puppy.

Absolutely that's why if any primarch is to come back, i want it to be the Lion. It would create tension which would actually be interesting.

Most of the others would sort of just get along which is...tedious.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
No, you don't quite understand. What if the Lion actually doesn't know who Cypher is...

Guilliman wouldn't know whether to believe the Lion or not. The Lion would get pissed that his word's not being taken. And all the while we're left with the question 'just who the hell is Cypher if even his Primarch doesn't know who he is'.

Plus the Lion coming back could create some interesting friction. He always had jealousy issues about Horus being chosen as Warmaster and was very suspicious about the whole Imperium Secundus thing. If he comes back and finds Roboute running the show while the DA Legion has been dismantled would make him one unhappy puppy.

Absolutely that's why if any primarch is to come back, i want it to be the Lion. It would create tension which would actually be interesting.

Most of the others would sort of just get along which is...tedious.

Some how I suspect Russ and Gulliman would see some tension as wellactually in terms of tension Russ, the Lion and Gulliman would bean intreasting triumvirate.

What about Dorn? He was almost brought the Imperium to civil war again by refusing to break up his Legion. Is that not another source of "interesting" friction?



Interesting, to me, would be a story involving Cortez escaping the Dark Eldar. If anyone could do it, it'd be him.

BrianDavion wrote:
Somehow I suspect Russ and Gulliman would see some tension as well - actually in terms of tension Russ, the Lion and Gulliman would be an intreasting triumvirate.

The Emperor's head bureaucrat and statistician Guilliman having to deal with The Lion - who keeps needed information from him - and Russ who just pretty much sees bureaucrazy and statistics as useless? That would be pretty harsh on Guilliman especially, but ofc The Lion too would be pissed at RG demanding info from him while Russ is just dipping info request forms into booze and lighting them on fire. I guess words would be spoken and blows exchanged before Russ starts laughing and tries defusing the situation, which might only irritate The Lion more.

Yeah i like the idea of Guilliman, the Lion and Russ basically causing a right bloody mess by no-one getting along with the other.

Especially if it gives Guilliman's character a bit of the edge i feel he's missing by making him thoroughly autocratic and domineering.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:I don't get what Gulliman was so disappointed about. He was well and alive after the Emperor was transferred to the golden throne. He was alive for many many years after that before he went into stasis from the wound he received. The emperor is still there in his barely alive state on the golden throne even after 10,000 years. What has changed to make him feel any different?

Gulliman should be perfectly clear and aware of the state of the Emperor even before he went into stasis.

Don't bring logic or continuity into this...

That's an interesting question actually. Applying logic, Guilliman being shocked now would imply that his father has changed since he last saw him. Which must mean that after initially being interred in the Golden Throne, the Emperor's psyche was intact, and he was able to keep up his earlier pretences to an extent.

For that to no longer be the case means that it was likely the strain of maintaining so many systems (the astronomican and holding the webway shut) over such a prolonged period of time which has driven him into madness.

IIRC Dark Imperium implied that this may have been the first time the emperor communicated with him from the throne.

I've mentioned before in previous page, the Emperor isn't going crazy.

Firstly, it wasn't Roboute who put Emperor onto the throne, it was Rogal Dorn, and He was the last person the Emperor ever spoke to before He went silent. Of course later on in other novels E did communicate to some others too.

Next, my point is, E is still very much sane and functioning, it is just that He no longer has time for pretense and other nonsense. In the past, He simply communicates more like a normal human and allow the Primarchs to see Him as a father figure because He thought that it will benefit them to function better.

Now with everything in almost total crisis, He threw off any pretense, any guise, and send Roboute a very very direct message. THE EMPEROR WAS COMMUNICATING IN HIS TRUE HONESTY.

It was finally revealed that deep within Him, He has never considered RG or any of his brothers as children, but tools, just very good tools. And tools are disposable if useless. So in a sense, in my thoughts He probably say along the lines, "Can you do it or not? If you can't then you are no use to me alive or dead" (my opinion)

Of course, this feels like a very harsh response considering that everything has been going WTF ever since RG was resurrected. E was very to the point, He is still very much focused on the Grand picture, and despite the very harsh and emotionless reply from a figure RG considered as father, RG understood the importance of His goals and ideals.

So to bring back the point, The Emperor has not changed, but rather, now RG know His true colors. It's all pretty logical.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
On the eldar front, it's because the eldar are in no way friends or allies of the imperium. Not in the slightest.

The Imperium is a blunt instrument to be wielded against Chaos/Orks/'nids/Necrons/whoever, with the end result of everyone except the eldar winding up dead.

Anything the Eldar ever do is for the sole benefit of the eldar. Due to their ability to see the future with much better clarity than any other race, they can develop plans that dupe the 'lesser' races into fighting their wars for them.

That's why they resurrected Guilliman. Not to do the Imperium a favour against their mutual enemy, but to save eldar skins.

And if I were the Eldar, I must remind them that the one of the galaxies greatest threat is because of Him, they even tried to warn Fulgrim and got smashed by him.
While Slaneesh and Chaos was dangerous, they didn't have man powerful lackeys in the material world, that's why it was a very2 rare occurrence, if almost none, that the marines ever encountered or saw a Greater Demon.
And after HH, now almost every encounter with CSM will have demons and greater demons.
So its relatable, if I were an eldar, I probably want the Imperium dying while exterminating Chaos.

well and more pratically you can't rule the galaxy if another species is infesting it

BrianDavion wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
Plus the Lion coming back could create some interesting friction. He always had jealousy issues about Horus being chosen as Warmaster and was very suspicious about the whole Imperium Secundus thing. If he comes back and finds Roboute running the show while the DA Legion has been dismantled would make him one unhappy puppy.

Absolutely that's why if any primarch is to come back, i want it to be the Lion. It would create tension which would actually be interesting.

Most of the others would sort of just get along which is...tedious.

Some how I suspect Russ and Gulliman would see some tension as wellactually in terms of tension Russ, the Lion and Gulliman would bean intreasting triumvirate.

Russ would want to hit things. My guess is that Roboute would be more than happy to let him act as military commander while he got on with shoring up the Imperium. One possible problem is that Roboute might want to act defensively while Russ might want to be more aggressive and take the fight to the Traitors (although Gulliman has kinda done that anyway with the Indomnitus Crusade).

Roboute and Russ are very different but I don't see that necessarily as being a cause of friction. I could see them splitting the work and getting on with it fairly evenly.

 luffie wrote:

I've mentioned before in previous page, the Emperor isn't going crazy.

Firstly, it wasn't Roboute who put Emperor onto the throne, it was Rogal Dorn, and He was the last person the Emperor ever spoke to before He went silent. Of course later on in other novels E did communicate to some others too.

Next, my point is, E is still very much sane and functioning, it is just that He no longer has time for pretense and other nonsense. In the past, He simply communicates more like a normal human and allow the Primarchs to see Him as a father figure because He thought that it will benefit them to function better.

This is the point where you ran off into the realms of headcanon. The latest book with Dark Imperium is building on a previous illustration of the Emperor as having mentally broken under the strain. It goes all the way back to the days of Jaq Draco and the Inquisition War. To type out some of the relevant extracts:

'"WE ARE MANY INQUISITOR."
"HOW ELSE COULD WE ADMINISTER OUR IMPERIUM-"
"AS WELL AS WINNOW THE WARP-"
"HOW ELSE?"
The Emperor's mind-voice, if that truly was what it was, had diassociated into several voices, as if his great undying soul co-existed in fragments which barely clung together'....

'Maybe Jaq was too young by hundreds, by thousands of years, and his intellect too puny to comprehend the multiplex mind of the master who was forever on overview, whose thoughts battered in his mind. Or maybe the master's mind had become chaotic. Not warped by the Ruinous Powers it surveyed, but divided amongst itself as its heroic grasp on existence ever so slowly weakened'.
"WHEN WE CONFRONTED THE CORRIPTED HOMICIDAL HORUS WHO ONCE USED TO SHINE LIKE THE BRIGHTEST STAR, WHO USED TO BE OUR BELOVED FAVOURITE - WHEN THE FATE OF THE GALAXY HUNG BY A THREAD - WERE WE NOT COMPELLED TO EXPEL ALL COMPASSION? ALL LOVE? ALL JOY? THOSE WENT AWAY. HOW ELSE COULD WE HAVE ARMOURED OURSELVES? EXISTENCE IS TORMENT, A TORMENT THAT MUST NOURISH US. EVIDENTLY WE MUST STRIVE TO BE THE FIERCE REDEEMER OF MAN, YET WHAT WILL REDEEM US?"

"HEED THIS JAQ DRACO. ONLY TINY PORTIONS OF US CAN HEED YOU, OTHERWISE WE NEGLECT OUR IMPERIUM, OF WHICH OUR SCRUTINY MUST NOT FALTER FOR AN INSTANT. FOR TIME DOES NOT HALT EVERYWHERE WITHIN THE REALM OF MAN. INDEED, TIME HALTS ONLY FOR YOU."
"WE ARE AN EVER WATCHFUL LORD, ARE WE NOT? DID YOU HOPE TO GAIN OUR UNDIVIDED ATTENTION?"
"HOW ELSE SHOULD WE SOUL-BIND PSYKERS AND OVERVIEW THE WARP AND BEAM THE ASTRONOMICAN BEACON AND SURVIVE AND RECEIVE INFORMATION AND GRANT AUDIENCES ALL AT ONCE UNLESS WE ARE MANY?"
"AND YET WE STILL MISS SO MUCH, SO VERY MUCH SUCH AS THAT WHICH GUIDED YOU HERE."
"OUR SPIRIT GUIDED YOU."
"NO: ANOTHER SPIRIT, A RECOLLECTION OF OUR GOODNESS WHICH WE THRUST FROM US."
"WE ARE THE THE ONLY SOURCE OF GOODNESS, SEVERE AND DRASTIC. THERE IS NO OTHER SOURCE OF HOPE THAN US. WE ARE AGONISINGLY ALONE."

I'm reasonably certain that if the Emperor had sounded like this before Guilliman wandered off, he'd have been considerably less shocked. We always hear the Emperor referring to himself in the singular, to his Custodes, to Grammaticus, to his Primarchs, to the Mechanicus. By the time Guilliman gets to him in 40K though, 'his humanity is gone', and speaking with him is like conversing 'with a star'.

To me, that 'AGONISINGLY ALONE' bit really jives with the image Guilliman sees of the Emperor as perceiving him as rasp suddenly handed into his jail. When the loyalist Primarchs disappeared, the Emperor saw his hope for ever leaving the Throne disappear with them. The strain of simply existing is listed next to the Astronomican. He could never stop, for he must "STRIVE TO BE THE REDEEMER OF MAN."Yet at the same time, His poignant cry emanates,"WHAT WILL REDEEM US?"

Powerful stuff indeed. Now finally, Guilliman has come home. And the mental fragments that now make up the Emperor's psyche see a slim hope for his own fate with that return.

Intreasting that it almost jives with a idea I ahd awhile back, maybe the emperor isn't actually JUST the emperor, but is now almost a composite of the emperor and all the souls sacrificed to him

 Ketara wrote:

 luffie wrote:

I've mentioned before in previous page, the Emperor isn't going crazy.

Firstly, it wasn't Roboute who put Emperor onto the throne, it was Rogal Dorn, and He was the last person the Emperor ever spoke to before He went silent. Of course later on in other novels E did communicate to some others too.

Next, my point is, E is still very much sane and functioning, it is just that He no longer has time for pretense and other nonsense. In the past, He simply communicates more like a normal human and allow the Primarchs to see Him as a father figure because He thought that it will benefit them to function better.

This is the point where you ran off into the realms of headcanon. The latest book with Dark Imperium is building on a previous illustration of the Emperor as having mentally broken under the strain. It goes all the way back to the days of Jaq Draco and the Inquisition War. To type out some of the relevant extracts:

'"WE ARE MANY INQUISITOR."
"HOW ELSE COULD WE ADMINISTER OUR IMPERIUM-"
"AS WELL AS WINNOW THE WARP-"
"HOW ELSE?"
The Emperor's mind-voice, if that truly was what it was, had diassociated into several voices, as if his great undying soul co-existed in fragments which barely clung together'....

'Maybe Jaq was too young by hundreds, by thousands of years, and his intellect too puny to comprehend the multiplex mind of the master who was forever on overview, whose thoughts battered in his mind. Or maybe the master's mind had become chaotic. Not warped by the Ruinous Powers it surveyed, but divided amongst itself as its heroic grasp on existence ever so slowly weakened'.
"WHEN WE CONFRONTED THE CORRIPTED HOMICIDAL HORUS WHO ONCE USED TO SHINE LIKE THE BRIGHTEST STAR, WHO USED TO BE OUR BELOVED FAVOURITE - WHEN THE FATE OF THE GALAXY HUNG BY A THREAD - WERE WE NOT COMPELLED TO EXPEL ALL COMPASSION? ALL LOVE? ALL JOY? THOSE WENT AWAY. HOW ELSE COULD WE HAVE ARMOURED OURSELVES? EXISTENCE IS TORMENT, A TORMENT THAT MUST NOURISH US. EVIDENTLY WE MUST STRIVE TO BE THE FIERCE REDEEMER OF MAN, YET WHAT WILL REDEEM US?"

"HEED THIS JAQ DRACO. ONLY TINY PORTIONS OF US CAN HEED YOU, OTHERWISE WE NEGLECT OUR IMPERIUM, OF WHICH OUR SCRUTINY MUST NOT FALTER FOR AN INSTANT. FOR TIME DOES NOT HALT EVERYWHERE WITHIN THE REALM OF MAN. INDEED, TIME HALTS ONLY FOR YOU."
"WE ARE AN EVER WATCHFUL LORD, ARE WE NOT? DID YOU HOPE TO GAIN OUR UNDIVIDED ATTENTION?"
"HOW ELSE SHOULD WE SOUL-BIND PSYKERS AND OVERVIEW THE WARP AND BEAM THE ASTRONOMICAN BEACON AND SURVIVE AND RECEIVE INFORMATION AND GRANT AUDIENCES ALL AT ONCE UNLESS WE ARE MANY?"
"AND YET WE STILL MISS SO MUCH, SO VERY MUCH SUCH AS THAT WHICH GUIDED YOU HERE."
"OUR SPIRIT GUIDED YOU."
"NO: ANOTHER SPIRIT, A RECOLLECTION OF OUR GOODNESS WHICH WE THRUST FROM US."
"WE ARE THE THE ONLY SOURCE OF GOODNESS, SEVERE AND DRASTIC. THERE IS NO OTHER SOURCE OF HOPE THAN US. WE ARE AGONISINGLY ALONE."

I'm reasonably certain that if the Emperor had sounded like this before Guilliman wandered off, he'd have been considerably less shocked. We always hear the Emperor referring to himself in the singular, to his Custodes, to Grammaticus, to his Primarchs, to the Mechanicus. By the time Guilliman gets to him in 40K though, 'his humanity is gone', and speaking with him is like conversing 'with a star'.

To me, that 'AGONISINGLY ALONE' bit really jives with the image Guilliman sees of the Emperor as perceiving him as rasp suddenly handed into his jail. When the loyalist Primarchs disappeared, the Emperor saw his hope for ever leaving the Throne disappear with them. The strain of simply existing is listed next to the Astronomican. He could never stop, for he must "STRIVE TO BE THE REDEEMER OF MAN."Yet at the same time, His poignant cry emanates,"WHAT WILL REDEEM US?"

Powerful stuff indeed. Now finally, Guilliman has come home. And the mental fragments that now make up the Emperor's psyche see a slim hope for his own fate with that return.

Ok, sort of there, but perhaps we have a slight misunderstanding here.

When I say the E is sane, it means He can still put on rational thoughts, He can still work things out, no matter how stressful etc.

Insane or mental breakdown means, something some where is not functioning right, like Him suddenly not beaming the Astronomicon or Him suddenly frying his own custodes using psychic powers.

So yes, the emperor is under incredible pressure and torment, but did not let go of His focus and work.

The emperor has never been a man, but a collective Pyskers reincarnated into one. He has always been able to operate many things at once since He has always been a "group". But before HH, He communicated closer like a man, like you say, in singularity. Only after HH, He communicated to Draco unlike a man.

As Draco, I would be surprised as well, since Draco or anyone, even RG perhaps, didn't know that He was this "many".

"Expelling all compassion", yes, I did mentioned this previously, that He indeed must have expelled all compassion and work like a total tyrant, in order to redeem mankind. Because despite what some say about an emotionless father, His emotions was what destroys Him, for He hesitates to act on Horus.

So in the end, what I am claiming again is, it all makes sense. Guilliman surprised by the Emperor's was of thinking, and why Emperor acts the way He acts. RG is frustrated but still firm. Emperor is still sane and stressed out. It's really good grim dark stuff.

 luffie wrote:

Ok, sort of there, but perhaps we have a slight misunderstanding here.

When I say the E is sane, it means He can still put on rational thoughts, He can still work things out, no matter how stressful etc.

Insane or mental breakdown means, something some where is not functioning right, like Him suddenly not beaming the Astronomicon or Him suddenly frying his own custodes using psychic powers.

So yes, the emperor is under incredible pressure and torment, but did not let go of His focus and work.

See, in a normal person, having extensive multiple personality disorder is considered 'insane' for the most part. I can't be bothered to type out more, but there are extensive tracts in that bit of story where the Emperor talks about different facets of Him hiding information from others. When you combine that with the way the voices purely in the extract above quickly contradict each other, I don't think we're talking about a paragon of sanity by any stretch of the imagination.

You can argue, I suppose, that he always had that going on in his head and nobody ever saw it. But to me, that would simply qualify him as always having been insane, but he had sufficient willpower to hold it together as one cohesive mass, which has clearly now gone (given that different parts of him appear to be working at total crosspurpose - I won't give the spoilers here).

If you think that somebody in that position qualifies as 'sane', I think we have very different conceptions of the word.

 luffie wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

 luffie wrote:

I've mentioned before in previous page, the Emperor isn't going crazy.

Firstly, it wasn't Roboute who put Emperor onto the throne, it was Rogal Dorn, and He was the last person the Emperor ever spoke to before He went silent. Of course later on in other novels E did communicate to some others too.

Next, my point is, E is still very much sane and functioning, it is just that He no longer has time for pretense and other nonsense. In the past, He simply communicates more like a normal human and allow the Primarchs to see Him as a father figure because He thought that it will benefit them to function better.

This is the point where you ran off into the realms of headcanon. The latest book with Dark Imperium is building on a previous illustration of the Emperor as having mentally broken under the strain. It goes all the way back to the days of Jaq Draco and the Inquisition War. To type out some of the relevant extracts:

'"WE ARE MANY INQUISITOR."
"HOW ELSE COULD WE ADMINISTER OUR IMPERIUM-"
"AS WELL AS WINNOW THE WARP-"
"HOW ELSE?"
The Emperor's mind-voice, if that truly was what it was, had diassociated into several voices, as if his great undying soul co-existed in fragments which barely clung together'....

'Maybe Jaq was too young by hundreds, by thousands of years, and his intellect too puny to comprehend the multiplex mind of the master who was forever on overview, whose thoughts battered in his mind. Or maybe the master's mind had become chaotic. Not warped by the Ruinous Powers it surveyed, but divided amongst itself as its heroic grasp on existence ever so slowly weakened'.
"WHEN WE CONFRONTED THE CORRIPTED HOMICIDAL HORUS WHO ONCE USED TO SHINE LIKE THE BRIGHTEST STAR, WHO USED TO BE OUR BELOVED FAVOURITE - WHEN THE FATE OF THE GALAXY HUNG BY A THREAD - WERE WE NOT COMPELLED TO EXPEL ALL COMPASSION? ALL LOVE? ALL JOY? THOSE WENT AWAY. HOW ELSE COULD WE HAVE ARMOURED OURSELVES? EXISTENCE IS TORMENT, A TORMENT THAT MUST NOURISH US. EVIDENTLY WE MUST STRIVE TO BE THE FIERCE REDEEMER OF MAN, YET WHAT WILL REDEEM US?"

"HEED THIS JAQ DRACO. ONLY TINY PORTIONS OF US CAN HEED YOU, OTHERWISE WE NEGLECT OUR IMPERIUM, OF WHICH OUR SCRUTINY MUST NOT FALTER FOR AN INSTANT. FOR TIME DOES NOT HALT EVERYWHERE WITHIN THE REALM OF MAN. INDEED, TIME HALTS ONLY FOR YOU."
"WE ARE AN EVER WATCHFUL LORD, ARE WE NOT? DID YOU HOPE TO GAIN OUR UNDIVIDED ATTENTION?"
"HOW ELSE SHOULD WE SOUL-BIND PSYKERS AND OVERVIEW THE WARP AND BEAM THE ASTRONOMICAN BEACON AND SURVIVE AND RECEIVE INFORMATION AND GRANT AUDIENCES ALL AT ONCE UNLESS WE ARE MANY?"
"AND YET WE STILL MISS SO MUCH, SO VERY MUCH SUCH AS THAT WHICH GUIDED YOU HERE."
"OUR SPIRIT GUIDED YOU."
"NO: ANOTHER SPIRIT, A RECOLLECTION OF OUR GOODNESS WHICH WE THRUST FROM US."
"WE ARE THE THE ONLY SOURCE OF GOODNESS, SEVERE AND DRASTIC. THERE IS NO OTHER SOURCE OF HOPE THAN US. WE ARE AGONISINGLY ALONE."

I'm reasonably certain that if the Emperor had sounded like this before Guilliman wandered off, he'd have been considerably less shocked. We always hear the Emperor referring to himself in the singular, to his Custodes, to Grammaticus, to his Primarchs, to the Mechanicus. By the time Guilliman gets to him in 40K though, 'his humanity is gone', and speaking with him is like conversing 'with a star'.

To me, that 'AGONISINGLY ALONE' bit really jives with the image Guilliman sees of the Emperor as perceiving him as rasp suddenly handed into his jail. When the loyalist Primarchs disappeared, the Emperor saw his hope for ever leaving the Throne disappear with them. The strain of simply existing is listed next to the Astronomican. He could never stop, for he must "STRIVE TO BE THE REDEEMER OF MAN."Yet at the same time, His poignant cry emanates,"WHAT WILL REDEEM US?"

Powerful stuff indeed. Now finally, Guilliman has come home. And the mental fragments that now make up the Emperor's psyche see a slim hope for his own fate with that return.

Ok, sort of there, but perhaps we have a slight misunderstanding here.

When I say the E is sane, it means He can still put on rational thoughts, He can still work things out, no matter how stressful etc.

Insane or mental breakdown means, something some where is not functioning right, like Him suddenly not beaming the Astronomicon or Him suddenly frying his own custodes using psychic powers.

So yes, the emperor is under incredible pressure and torment, but did not let go of His focus and work.

The emperor has never been a man, but a collective Pyskers reincarnated into one. He has always been able to operate many things at once since He has always been a "group". But before HH, He communicated closer like a man, like you say, in singularity. Only after HH, He communicated to Draco unlike a man.

As Draco, I would be surprised as well, since Draco or anyone, even RG perhaps, didn't know that He was this "many".

"Expelling all compassion", yes, I did mentioned this previously, that He indeed must have expelled all compassion and work like a total tyrant, in order to redeem mankind. Because despite what some say about an emotionless father, His emotions was what destroys Him, for He hesitates to act on Horus.

So in the end, what I am claiming again is, it all makes sense. Guilliman surprised by the Emperor's was of thinking, and why Emperor acts the way He acts. RG is frustrated but still firm. Emperor is still sane and stressed out. It's really good grim dark stuff.

Isn't "The Emperor is a collective Shaman Psyker Gestalt" not necessarily Cannon anymore? I've seen posts on this forum and even this on 1d4chan:

Allegedly, (according to 1st & 2nd edition fluff), his birth was the result of hundreds of human shamans committing ritual suicide to be reborn as a single individual capable of protecting humanity from the Chaos Gods. However, the validity of this fluff is frequently questioned, given it hasn't been "official" since second edition. However, this theory seems unlikely, especially given that other Perpetuals are known to exist, some of which may be even older than the Emperor, and they don't have godlike powers. The Chaos Gods apparently view the Emperor as an equal/rival due to his acquisition of powers at a later point (see below). Yet other fluff tidbits imply that he is some sort of flesh-construct from the Dark Age of Technology run amok and aping human affectation. This one seems to have some level of truth to it, as Constantin Valdor neither confirmed nor denied it when a gak-kicking Nord Afrikan minister mentioned it to him.

Isn't "The Emperor is a collective Shaman Psyker Gestalt" not necessarily Cannon anymore? I've seen posts on this forum and even this on 1d4chan:

Allegedly, (according to 1st & 2nd edition fluff), his birth was the result of hundreds of human shamans committing ritual suicide to be reborn as a single individual capable of protecting humanity from the Chaos Gods. However, the validity of this fluff is frequently questioned, given it hasn't been "official" since second edition. However, this theory seems unlikely, especially given that other Perpetuals are known to exist, some of which may be even older than the Emperor, and they don't have godlike powers. The Chaos Gods apparently view the Emperor as an equal/rival due to his acquisition of powers at a later point (see below). Yet other fluff tidbits imply that he is some sort of flesh-construct from the Dark Age of Technology run amok and aping human affectation. This one seems to have some level of truth to it, as Constantin Valdor neither confirmed nor denied it when a gak-kicking Nord Afrikan minister mentioned it to him.

 luffie wrote:

True that it is not very official, but Him being many beings/people at once is true, since He confirmed it with Draco

All the Inquisition War proves is that he has Multiple Personality Disorder at the least. Likely from the strain of maintaining so many systems for so long in a withered husk of a mortal shell. Considering he functions in the singular in every other appearance ever made, I don't buy he's multiple people. Considering Guilliman says he received the full weight of his father's entire mind (as opposed to a fraction like Draco) and still refers to him in the singular, I think you need more to go on than the Shaman's theory at this stage.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but the evidence would appear stacked against it.

is inqusition war even canon anymore?

BrianDavion wrote:
is inqusition war even canon anymore?

I've never heard anyone say it wasn't or give a reason for it not to be. The only thing that's ever been particularly affected in it by retconning was the existence of Grimm the Squat. Everything else is in line with current canon.

Audustum wrote:

Isn't "The Emperor is a collective Shaman Psyker Gestalt" not necessarily Cannon anymore? I've seen posts on this forum and even this on 1d4chan:

Allegedly, (according to 1st & 2nd edition fluff), his birth was the result of hundreds of human shamans committing ritual suicide to be reborn as a single individual capable of protecting humanity from the Chaos Gods. However, the validity of this fluff is frequently questioned, given it hasn't been "official" since second edition. However, this theory seems unlikely, especially given that other Perpetuals are known to exist, some of which may be even older than the Emperor, and they don't have godlike powers. The Chaos Gods apparently view the Emperor as an equal/rival due to his acquisition of powers at a later point (see below). Yet other fluff tidbits imply that he is some sort of flesh-construct from the Dark Age of Technology run amok and aping human affectation. This one seems to have some level of truth to it, as Constantin Valdor neither confirmed nor denied it when a gak-kicking Nord Afrikan minister mentioned it to him.

This I like. Knowing stuff for certain about mysterious super-beings and the dim and distant past of 40k has always been a bit toxic to the whole feel of the universe. Much better to give 4 or 5 different possible explanations and leave them as all possible and none plausible.

Is the Emperor a psychic gestalt of pre-historic shamans? Is he some eldritch flesh-construct from the Dark Age of Technology? Is he just a regular human warlord from the Age of Strife who has built a cult of personality around him so strong that, due to the way belief works in the 40k universe, a billion billion humans in the galaxy have psychically manifested a true warp-god within him?

All are possible. None are definite. Much better that way.

Audustum wrote:

Isn't "The Emperor is a collective Shaman Psyker Gestalt" not necessarily Cannon anymore?

Generally, the rule with the type of loose canon(lol) that 40k has is that stuff is canon unless it's contradicted by newer stuff. AFAIK, we haven't gotten another origin story for the Emperor, so his origin as the collective consciousness of thousands of shaman psykers from ~50k years in the past is still the official story.

Iracundus wrote:
There can be no evolution of humanity into a more psychically powerful or mature race if those that are actually psychically skilled never produce children. The Imperium's policies make being a psyker disadvantageous to say the least, and this actively selects against being psychic. If you are a psyker, you are either condemned to be killed as a witch, consumed by the Emperor, or made to serve the Imperium under a cloud of suspicion meaning you will likely never have children. Even psychically active Inquisitors seem to spend their lives devoted to duty and have little time for raising a family. I'm sure in a vast galaxy there may be exceptions, but they are rare enough to the point of being insignificant.

The Emperor's plan is to safeguard and guide human's evolution in to a psychic race that is not prone to daemonic attack / perils of the warp.

If daemonic attack / perils indeed is genetically linked then it does make some sense to control these individuals. As it stands the most dangerous ones are destroyed, and those deemed 'safe' are allowed to work in the service of the Emperor.

I have my doubts whether humanity will ever produce 'safe' psykers, though, especially given the turbulent state of the warp.

Kdash wrote:
So, genuine questions here as i'm more up to date with HH lore than 40k lore....

What is stopping the webway tear caused by Magnus being repaired by the Eldar? Thus freeing up forces and focus?

Master of Mankind pretty much said the Eldar did not build the webway, they just used it.

Even so they might not be able to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Just Tony wrote:
What about Dorn? He was almost brought the Imperium to civil war again by refusing to break up his Legion. Is that not another source of "interesting" friction?

Um Dorns Skeleton is hanging in the Imperial Fist's battle barge and the bones are used for scrimshaw practice (per Ian Watson's Space Marine). While Johnson is just sitting in the closet (or running around being Cypher, or BOTH!) Dorn is pretty much dead, dead, D-E-A-D.

Sure it could be reconned (that was my identical cousin's clone's skeleton!) but it's more of a reach. Even Guilliman's return was plausible (in a comic book sort of way) but Dorn coming back would be a Bobby Ewing in the Shower sort of @#$% you to fans.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Isn't "The Emperor is a collective Shaman Psyker Gestalt" not necessarily Cannon anymore?

Generally, the rule with the type of loose canon(lol) that 40k has is that stuff is canon unless it's contradicted by newer stuff. AFAIK, we haven't gotten another origin story for the Emperor, so his origin as the collective consciousness of thousands of shaman psykers from ~50k years in the past is still the official story.

Nearly. More like 'nothing is canon-canon even if we outright state it, but everything might be true'.

Contrary to popular belief, this does not result in the whole universe collapsing into a miasma of confusion. It's actually quite liberating and novel.

Master of Mankind implied he was just your average everyday immortal psychic born 4000 years before the birth of Christ. It has a story about his uncle killing his father (IIRC).

But it's the Emperor himself telling that story so he might be lying.

He's always been embarrassed about being the gestalt of 1000 naked guys popping mushrooms.