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Eldenfirefly wrote:

Gulliman should be perfectly clear and aware of the state of the Emperor even before he went into stasis.

Perhaps the Emperor has continued to deteriorate mentally whilst on the throne (his body can't really get much worse). The book comments that the Emperor had lost his subtlety, his ability to express himself in human terms. People have commented that the HH series portrays the Emperor as not exactly a nice guy. The point is he is not really human. He is a massively powerful psychic gestalt wearing a human body. I think that 10,000 has stripped away the last of his humanity and left the Emperor a raw mass of psychic power.

Guilliman regrets that loss and also the state that the Imperium has degenerated into since his entombment. Instead of a progressive, secular society, the Imperium has been plunged into a dark age of fear, war and superstition. It has become everything he was fighting to move beyond during the Great Crusade.

The Emperor has not had to practice acting human for 10,000 years. He must be rusty.

Guilliman may not be able to figure out the Throne. In Dark Imperium he reflected that the Emperor's sword "resisted Guilliman's attempts to learn its nature". Now those words may simply mean that Guilliman could not fathom it, or perhaps it might mean there was active resistance. We don't know. The mechanisms of the Throne may be similar.

Could be. Despite all the Primarchs having brilliant minds, they were not all equal. Guilliman has never shown any traces of psychic potential so it is conceivable that figuring out certain things will always be impossible for him. It would be like a blind man trying to understand colour.

The reason for why the Emperor's sword burned was described by Guilliman in Dark Imperium as "a question of the warp, not of science, despite the machine trappings on the blade and hilt." The Emperor's secret projects seem to have been Eldar-like in being a fusion of realspace and warp technology. Guilliman having no psychic potential beyond that innate to being a Primarch, might therefore be able to only at best grasp half of the picture.

I thought master of mankind made it clear the big E only ever thought of the primarchs as tools and only the custodes as close to "children."

For as pragmatic as Bobby G is I'm surprised that during the heresy, after, and again at his ressurection that he never realized that the emperor viewed the primarchs as generals only.

And for all the big E hate, I love that is how they shaped his character. Unknowable, vast, cruel, and magnificent all at the same time with one goal: save humanity and any price or lie to accomplish that goal was just par for the course.

 Nova_Impero wrote:
I think he knows about the problems with the Golden Throne. I would expect Roboute would find a way to fix it.

I would expect Roboute to instruct Cawl to find a way to fix it. And because Cawl is apparently made of magic and fariy-dust he'll fix it just in time.

 buddha wrote:
I thought master of mankind made it clear the big E only ever thought of the primarchs as tools and only the custodes as close to "children."

For as pragmatic as Bobby G is I'm surprised that during the heresy, after, and again at his ressurection that he never realized that the emperor viewed the primarchs as generals only.

I am pretty sure he did realise after his resurrection and now he is adapting to that knowledge.

Guilliman had expected nothing.

But He spoke.

With words of light and fire, the Emperor had conferred with His returned primarch, the last of His finest creations.

A creation. Not a son.

The living Emperor had been an artful being, as skilled at hiding His thoughts as He was at reading those of others. What remained of Him was powerful beyond comprehension, but it lacked the subtlety He had had whilst He walked among men. Speaking with the Emperor had been like conversing with a star. The Emperor’s words burned him.

What hurt most deeply was what went unsaid.

The Emperor greeted Guilliman not as a father receives a son, but as a craftsmen who rediscovers a favourite tool that he thought lost. He behaved like a prisoner locked in an iron cage who is passed a rasp.

Guilliman had no illusions. He was not the man who brought the rasp; he was the rasp. While the Emperor had walked abroad, He had cloaked His manipulations in love. He had let His primarchs call Him father; He had let them call themselves His sons. He had rarely spoken those words Himself, Guilliman now realised, and when He had He had done so without sincerity.

Buffeted by the full might of the Emperor’s will unclothed in flesh, a cloak had been ripped from Guilliman’s eyes.

The Emperor had allowed them to love Him, and to believe He loved them in return. He had not. His primarchs were weapons, that was all.

Though His power was immense, perhaps greater than it had been before He ascended, the Emperor’s humanity was all but gone. He could no longer mask His thoughts with a human face. The Emperor’s light was blinding, all encompassing, but finally – finally – Guilliman had seen it as a whole. The being he had thought of as a father could hide nothing from him.

Supertony51 wrote:So, I read the Dark imperium and how awkward and disappointed Gulliman felt about his meeting with the emperor. It got me thinking, does Gulliman know that the golden throne is failing, and if he does, will we see plans on how he intends to confront this issue?

I know he has a lot on his plate, but would he really allow the golden throne to fail without doing everything he can to preserve it? What about Cawl, could he offer some insight on how to fix the machine?

I'm really curious to see how and if GW approaches this topic.

What do you all think will happen?

It really depends on the origins of the Golden Throne and how much is physically left of the Emperor. The battle with Horus wrecked him physically to the point that he essentially couldn't sustain his own existence any more, even by suffusing himself with effectively infinite warp energy (we know he still retains his psychic strength). That means that whatever saves him needs to be able disentangle him from the Throne (if that's even still possible) without killing him and then restore him, or somehow do it whilst he's still on it. That's this bloke here, to pull out the official artwork:-



We know that there are other Dark Age technologies which had similar traits as the Throne(see the Heart of Iron). If a new one designed to heal the Emperor could be built or discovered, it could potentially restore him without the resurrection. This would require an in depth R&D program of the sort the Imperium simply doesn't currently have. Cawl is Guilliman's best bet of getting something going in that direction, but Cawl is something of an unknown factor.

The question is really, does Guilliman WANT to revive the Emperor to his pre-Heresy state? And even if he does, what if Cawl decides he'd rather stick him in some sort of Terminator suit as an embodiment of the Machine God with what little is left of his humanity purged? What Guilliman wants is not the only factor here.

Ynneadwraith wrote:
They wouldn't resurrect the Emperor even if they could. They want the Imperium just strong enough so that it can stalemate Chaos while the Eldar sit back and watch.

I think people forget that the Eldar are not on the Imperium's side.

I don't think the Eldar view the Emperor in the same way as they do stock humanity. I remember a conversation regaridng the Cabal where they apparently thought he was the one human who would probably belong on their council. Something about his longevity of nature, sheer psychic power, and singleness of purpose.

I would not be surprised to learn that an offer was extended to him at some point in the past by the Cabal to sit maongst them, and rejected. The Emperor seems to have unusual levels of xenophobia.

Ynneadwraith wrote:
Perhaps, but I don't think it's realistic to have the Eldar automatically siding against Chaos when the Imperium has been every bit as destructive to the Eldar species as Chaos has. Chaos isn't a greater enemy, they're both the same.

I understand the existential threat thing, but dead's dead. If the Imperium destroys a craftworld the exact same thing happens as when a Slaaneshi daemon does.

I'm afraid I don't agree. The ultimate goal of Chaos is to allow the Warp to suffuse the galaxy, eye of terror style, so that the Gods can reach out and influence the material world at will. To make it, in effect, just another dimension of the warp. Unless they plan to hide in the Webway forever, that essentially makes Chaos the greatest of existential threats to the Eldar. If they get eaten by 'Nids, at least their souls survive. If the Eye of Terror encompassed the entire physical realm, there would be nowhere left to hide from Slaanesh bar the webway.

The Imperium on the other hand? They're monkeys. Well armed monkeys, but monkeys nonetheless. A Maiden World seized by the Imperium can have its settlers killed and be reclaimed. A Maiden World polluted by Chaos is ruined for good. A soulstone lost to the Imperium is one that can be bought or violently taken back in the future. A soulstone taken by Chaos is devoured.

The Imperium is a transient, mundane threat, just like the Orks, the Tau, the Tarellians, the Hrud, and so on. Mundane threats which expand and contract of their own accord, which leave reclaimable assets in their wake. They can be intimidated, bargained with, even manipulated. Chaos?

There can be no peace with the eternal enemy.

 Ketara wrote:

I would not be surprised to learn that an offer was extended to him at some point in the past by the Cabal to sit maongst them, and rejected. The Emperor seems to have unusual levels of xenophobia.

The Emperor's purpose was to ensure the survival of humanity. Chaos may be public enemy number 1 but aliens are high on the list too. Remember that at the start of the Great Crusade, the Eldar had just created the God of excess in a massive death-orgy. The Emperor probably didn't see teeming up with these guys as a useful course of action.

Remember that Eldrad rejected the Cabal's strategy as well.

A human may kill a eldar. But they will not be bother by the soul.

Chaos will kill you, take your soul, and torture you till you die again, and again.

If chaos makes deamon worlds they cannot be reversed.
Imperial settlements can be.

Humans represent a threat but far less permanent than chaos.

 Karhedron wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

I would not be surprised to learn that an offer was extended to him at some point in the past by the Cabal to sit maongst them, and rejected. The Emperor seems to have unusual levels of xenophobia.

The Emperor's purpose was to ensure the survival of humanity. Chaos may be public enemy number 1 but aliens are high on the list too. Remember that at the start of the Great Crusade, the Eldar had just created the God of excess in a massive death-orgy. The Emperor probably didn't see teeming up with these guys as a useful course of action.

Remember that Eldrad rejected the Cabal's strategy as well.

Yeah the Cabal are a massively radical interspecies sect. They don't even represent a fraction of the Eldar as a whole. In fact, 'the Eldar' don't really have a unified voice at all. Whenever I speak of 'the Eldar' it's only even what I believe the majority reaction would be.

 jhe90 wrote:
A human may kill a eldar. But they will not be bother by the soul.

Chaos will kill you, take your soul, and torture you till you die again, and again.

If chaos makes deamon worlds they cannot be reversed.
Imperial settlements can be.

Humans represent a threat but far less permanent than chaos.

I think people underestimate the threat humans pose to the Eldar. It's hard for the Eldar to avoid their souls being devoured by Slaanesh if they're all dead.

Chaos' endgame for the Eldar is for Slaanesh to devour all of their souls. The Imperium's endgame for the Eldar is to genocide them...which leaves them defenceless against Slaanesh devouring their souls. Same result. Besides, killing an Eldar even if their soul is saved is still unforgivable by the Eldar's standards. Just because the world can be recovered after the mon'keigh slaughter its inhabitants, doesn't mean the Eldar are going to treat the Imperium any differently.

I will agree that the Imperium can be wielded as a tool by the Eldar, which does put them a little higher in the stakes. Just don't mistake any 'alliance' from the Eldar to be based on anything to do with mutual aid. They are absolutely and categorically 'not on our side', even against Chaos.

I think he must be aware of the issue, although it would be interesting to find out if the Emperor knows.

Guilliman only has three resources to draw upon that the Lords of Terra did not, himself, B Cawl and the Ynarri.
I can't see G-Man or Cawl figuring out how to fix it, given that it started as unfathomable dark age technology which was then modified on the command of one of the most brilliant minds ever to have existed.
I also don't see the Eldar fixing it, even if it was in their power to do so, as the Emperor has no appetite for sharing the galaxy with dangerous Xenos.

Therefore, I can only see two options. The Imperium find a new throne somewhere (a bit of a kop out really) or the throne does fail and triggers another big narrative shift.
We know that no failure occurs for at least 200 years though, as no mention of it is made in the 'Dark Imperium' book.

I thought the description of the Emperor was really interesting, far from being drained and exhausted from his eternal battle with chaos he has grown fat and thrived.
Perhaps this was from the worship of his people and the donation of psychic power in the Astronomicon, but they could be trying to set up the Emperor becoming a fully fledged warp entity.

I think the implications that Big E has lost his humanity or does not pretend anymore is a very good point for me.
Many people and even the Primarchs think that E's weakness was, he doesn't know how to be human or lack of empathy, but I'd argue that his emotion is actually his biggest mistake.
Yes, from the very beginning, the emperor has one single goal, that is to free humanity from the warp, and every thing that he does fuels him closer to that goal. Every creation is a tool, even the 1st Thunder warriors that he made.
And an efficient tool they were. And every thunder warrior is disposable.Then he requires even more efficient tools, the Primarchs. They were made as tools for war, not children because E is lonely.
In terms of Lorgar, E saw that this tool is not doing it's very function, and thus temper it back to it's function. In Angron, the nail can serve the function of war so it wasn't removed. Yes Angron was brutal, but he does his job, so all is well.
Does he know that the Primarchs can turn bad, yes of course He knew, but it doesn't matter, as He can just remove it and look for a new tool. Case to point, he even eradicated 2 primarchs for unknown reasons (of coz for us). When he is detached and use every tool in his arsenal, everything went well.

So where did he made one of his biggest mistake?? He grew too fond of Horus, he started to thing of Horus as a bit of his child, that's where. He believes Horus can lead as a Warmaster, and put his faith in him. For it is stated somewhere in the HH artbooks that He knew things were awry on the outside, He even knew when Magnus send the message via sorcery, but E couldn't bring himself to believe it, that his most trusted and beloved child would actually do this, He wanted to see it for himself. Yes, it is also stated in the artbooks that [b]He couldn't bring himself to kill Horus outright because E hoped that He can bring Horus back[/b]. This is where, having emotions and attachment to his Primarch/tools can hold him back to carry out the necessary actions. He could have blasted H to oblivion during vengeful spirit,or he could just send Russ after Horus when he received the message from Magnus. gak would have been so much more cleaner and things will still "go as planned".

Now I can imagine that being on the throne for some time, would at least give him some moments to reflect on this, then it would have also harden his resolve, knowing that He was so close to losing humanity, He must not falter anymore. He has no need to pretend as a father anymore, and He has no need to hide the fact that he views everyone as a tool anymore, because He must.

Now nobody know what exactly goes on during the exchange of RG and E, but I reckoned that He made his clear view for RG, and made it clear that unless he functions as the purpose that E requires, He has no use of him and might as well stay dead. This I guess, would shock RG in terms of humanity level, for he never expected that E would view them as such, but also finally understood the necessity of Him doing so. Perhaps E also present the other option where E dies and the Imperium fell into chaos, and realize it is precisely the emotionless devotion to the task that allows E to endure up till today despite the endless torture and agony.

So I don't think RG would suddenly take over the whole Imperium without the Emperor's instructions, but it is exactly because of Him. E would want him to be the dictator that He was, eradicating everything that is unnecessary to the task, like arts and history, and assume the full authoritarian role and resume His goal.

Does the Emperor love us? Yes, He does - Roboute Guilliman.

One thing RG doesn't contemplate in his ruminations nor do I see people asking here is the chicken and the egg scenario. Did the Emperor never have humanity or love for his Primarch or did getting interred on the Golden Throne strip away what once was there? Which came first?

RG is being a pouty teen regarding dear old dad right now, but it's possible he loved them once (see battle with Horus, building retirement palace for Primarch) and has since lost such capability in his advanced, but degenerate, state.

Audustum wrote:
One thing RG doesn't contemplate in his ruminations nor do I see people asking here is the chicken and the egg scenario. Did the Emperor never have humanity or love for his Primarch or did getting interred on the Golden Throne strip away what once was there? Which came first?

RG is being a pouty teen regarding dear old dad right now, but it's possible he loved them once (see battle with Horus, building retirement palace for Primarch) and has since lost such capability in his advanced, but degenerate, state.

True, he is going through mid-life crisis or emotional turmoil right now.

Got resurrected by Xenos
The imperium in this Catholicism mess
First brother to brother meeting didn't go well (fulgrim)
2nd brother meeting also crap (magnus)
Persuading others regarding Primaris
And now dad doesn't wanna be dad anymore

I could see it's all very frustrating for him ever since he came back. Everything, except that one spark from Yvraine.

 luffie wrote:

Audustum wrote:
One thing RG doesn't contemplate in his ruminations nor do I see people asking here is the chicken and the egg scenario. Did the Emperor never have humanity or love for his Primarch or did getting interred on the Golden Throne strip away what once was there? Which came first?

RG is being a pouty teen regarding dear old dad right now, but it's possible he loved them once (see battle with Horus, building retirement palace for Primarch) and has since lost such capability in his advanced, but degenerate, state.

True, he is going through mid-life crisis or emotional turmoil right now.

Got resurrected by Xenos
The imperium in this Catholicism mess
First brother to brother meeting didn't go well (fulgrim)
2nd brother meeting also crap (magnus)
Persuading others regarding Primaris
And now dad doesn't wanna be dad anymore

I could see it's all very frustrating for him ever since he came back. Everything, except that one spark from Yvraine.

Yeah, I guess I can't blame the guy too much. Maybe this will pick up if Lion comes back after Mortarion.

I can't imagine Gulliman will be the only primarch to return, rumor mills been saying Russ is next. IMHO I think there's a lot of intreasting possiabilkiies with that one. oddly I think Russ'd be good for Gulliman

Either Russ or the Lion would be a good way to counter Gulliman's issues.

 Jon Garrett wrote:
Either Russ or the Lion would be a good way to counter Gulliman's issues.

If RG is annoyed about what the Imperium has turned into, I can't wait to see what Leman Russ thinks about it. . .

As far as Eldar and the Emperor go, the master od mankind did meet and even gift Eldrad with a token of their "friendship" who later used it when he tried to send agent to contact Big E during The Beast debacle. Just goes to show that he's not totally turned of the idea of working with Xenos and even Eldrad admitted to himself that after the Emperor was entombed in the throne the two empires could only survive or even beat chaos by working togther.

As for gulliman I'm not sure that even him and Cawl together could repair the throne unless they found a plot toolbox in the Noctis labyrinth. The primarchs that probably could would be in my mind, Vulcan, Perturabo, and Magnus, only with all working together but thats never going to happen

You forgot Manus, but he's kinda dead.

 Jon Garrett wrote:
Either Russ or the Lion would be a good way to counter Gulliman's issues.

Please let it be Russ. If the Lion comes back, then they have to explain or deal with the issue of resurrecting/healing a Primarch again, and Cypher's mystery has to revealed/ended. At least Russ just went on his own quest, it's easier to explain that he got caught up or lost (Plus his 30k model is so damn cool).

 luffie wrote:

 Jon Garrett wrote:
Either Russ or the Lion would be a good way to counter Gulliman's issues.

Please let it be Russ. If the Lion comes back, then they have to explain or deal with the issue of resurrecting/healing a Primarch again, and Cypher's mystery has to revealed/ended. At least Russ just went on his own quest, it's easier to explain that he got caught up or lost (Plus his 30k model is so damn cool).

the Lion 's been said to be fully healed (he's been in acoma for 10k years) I think with the Lion the question that'd need to be answered more then anything is "why's it taken so long" one wonders if the watchers in the dark have their own agenda at play

 luffie wrote:

 Jon Garrett wrote:
Either Russ or the Lion would be a good way to counter Gulliman's issues.

Please let it be Russ. If the Lion comes back, then they have to explain or deal with the issue of resurrecting/healing a Primarch again, and Cypher's mystery has to revealed/ended. At least Russ just went on his own quest, it's easier to explain that he got caught up or lost (Plus his 30k model is so damn cool).

Cyphers mystery doesn't have to end. What happens if the Lion takes a look at him and says "I don't recognize that guy"? The idea that the Cypher could be a Dread Pirate Roberts type thing could hold water.

 Bi'ios wrote:

 luffie wrote:

 Jon Garrett wrote:
Either Russ or the Lion would be a good way to counter Gulliman's issues.

Please let it be Russ. If the Lion comes back, then they have to explain or deal with the issue of resurrecting/healing a Primarch again, and Cypher's mystery has to revealed/ended. At least Russ just went on his own quest, it's easier to explain that he got caught up or lost (Plus his 30k model is so damn cool).

Cyphers mystery doesn't have to end. What happens if the Lion takes a look at him and says "I don't recognize that guy"? The idea that the Cypher could be a Dread Pirate Roberts type thing could hold water.

Also the Lion wasn't exactly renowed as forthcoming. I could easily see the Lion coming back and little changing. with the only new revelation about Cypher being "Since his return the Lion has pushed his sons even ahrder to track and capture Cypher. He has thus far however refused to explain the reason for his urgancy in this matter"

 Bi'ios wrote:

 luffie wrote:

 Jon Garrett wrote:
Either Russ or the Lion would be a good way to counter Gulliman's issues.

Please let it be Russ. If the Lion comes back, then they have to explain or deal with the issue of resurrecting/healing a Primarch again, and Cypher's mystery has to revealed/ended. At least Russ just went on his own quest, it's easier to explain that he got caught up or lost (Plus his 30k model is so damn cool).

Cyphers mystery doesn't have to end. What happens if the Lion takes a look at him and says "I don't recognize that guy"? The idea that the Cypher could be a Dread Pirate Roberts type thing could hold water.

Oh hell yeah. That's a brilliant idea anything that ups the mystery factor of Cypher is good by me

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Bi'ios wrote:

 luffie wrote:

 Jon Garrett wrote:
Either Russ or the Lion would be a good way to counter Gulliman's issues.

Please let it be Russ. If the Lion comes back, then they have to explain or deal with the issue of resurrecting/healing a Primarch again, and Cypher's mystery has to revealed/ended. At least Russ just went on his own quest, it's easier to explain that he got caught up or lost (Plus his 30k model is so damn cool).

Cyphers mystery doesn't have to end. What happens if the Lion takes a look at him and says "I don't recognize that guy"? The idea that the Cypher could be a Dread Pirate Roberts type thing could hold water.

Oh hell yeah. That's a brilliant idea anything that ups the mystery factor of Cypher is good by me

Not until Roboute question him about Cypher, or that why Cypher has the Lion's sword. And since Roboute is the head of the Imperium now, it's hard to see how the Lion can choose not to answer him. So please, bring back Russ

No, you don't quite understand. What if the Lion actually doesn't know who Cypher is...

Guilliman wouldn't know whether to believe the Lion or not. The Lion would get pissed that his word's not being taken. And all the while we're left with the question 'just who the hell is Cypher if even his Primarch doesn't know who he is'.

I would be happy with Russ coming back provided he promptly renames half of the Space Wolf codex to something with a little more inspiration and nuance than 'Wolf McWolfClaws'

Eldenfirefly wrote:I don't get what Gulliman was so disappointed about. He was well and alive after the Emperor was transferred to the golden throne. He was alive for many many years after that before he went into stasis from the wound he received. The emperor is still there in his barely alive state on the golden throne even after 10,000 years. What has changed to make him feel any different?

Gulliman should be perfectly clear and aware of the state of the Emperor even before he went into stasis.

Don't bring logic or continuity into this...








I seriously think the missed opportunity was to have Cypher BE the Lion. Think about it: lifelong friend fell under Chaos's sway, but felt remorse/repented before delivering the killing blow. Lion awakes to find the Fallen hunted like dogs, even the repentant ones. Quest to bring the Sword to the Emperor to have it reforged and vindicate the Fallen is his way of helping Luther. Not to mention that several descriptions of Cypher and Lion match. Remember the Russ/Johnson fight? Russ was described as stronger, and Johnson was described as faster. Look at Cypher's initiative since the establishment of his rules.

Have they tried turning it off and back on again?