V1.1 of Xenia 2 Tau Saviour protocol allows tau player to dump the damage from an enemy wounding attack to a drone as a single mortal wound instead of attacks original damage.

Is smite an enemy attack that can be dumped to a drone regardless of how much damage was rolled (d3 or d6)?

I would say a Mortal Wound is still a Wound, and thus could be transferred to a drone.

Keep in mind mortal wounds are applied one at a time so if smite rolled 3 moral wounds you would have to use three drones to eat it instead

Aren't the mortal wounds from the single attack smite, the damage? Isn't the single spell the attack doing the damage? Doesn't saviour protocol say all the damage from the attack is ignored and replaced with a single mortal wound instead?

 Tactica wrote:
Aren't the mortal wounds from the single attack smite, the damage? Isn't the single spell the attack doing the damage? Doesn't saviour protocol say all the damage from the attack is ignored and replaced with a single mortal wound instead?

No mortal wounds are different as they flow over unlike other wounds

 Tactica wrote:
Aren't the mortal wounds from the single attack smite, the damage? Isn't the single spell the attack doing the damage? Doesn't saviour protocol say all the damage from the attack is ignored and replaced with a single mortal wound instead?

No. You roll to hit,. If successful you roll to wound. If successful you can intercept and any amount of damage the wound would have done is now converted into a single mortal wound.

Attacks that generate mortal wounds without a roll to hit, which wound automatically because that is how the mortal wound do, apply each damage as it's own individual hit. So a spore mine does d3 mortal wounds. It could kill 3 1 wound models because it's 3 hits and so each hit carries over to the next model. Likewise smite is not a single hit. It's a number of mortal wounds i.e. a number of automatic hits that automatically wound.

Yep, mortal wounds are still wounds that get allocated, so Savior Protocols can be used to pass them off. But also agreed that each mortal wound is a separate attack, and therefore would have to be resolved separately against the drone unit.

Where are you getting that Saviour Protocols redirects the entirety of a wounding attack to a single wound on one drone?

In the FAQ/Errata it says to allocate wounds to the drone unit. 6 wounds from a lascannon would need 6 drones.

@DarknessEternal,

Last sentence.

Pages 53, 56, 57, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73 and 74 – Saviour Protocols
Change this rule to read:
Saviour Protocols: If a <Sept> Drones unit is within 3" of a friendly <Sept> Infantry or <Sept> Battlesuit unit when an enemy attack successfully wounds it, you can allocate that wound to the Drones unit instead of the target. If you do, that Drones unit suffers a mortal wound instead of the normal damage.

source: https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/40K_8th_ed_Update_Index_Xenos_2_ver_1.1.pdf

It *seems*, an attack that wounds (failed to save or negate), but has not yet dealt damage, is different than the damage a wounding attack might deliver. A successfully wounding attack can dish out damage in the form of wounds or mortal wounds.

Thus, a wounding attack is not equal to the damage the attack deals.

So is the spell Smite an attack or multiple attacks? If it were multiple attacks, there would be no question. It *seems* like a single attack (spell) which deals multiple mortal wounds for its DAMAGE if not negated. Now, hypothetically - if it rolled to hit 3 times, then it would definitely be 3 individual attacks and would need to be savior protocol'd 3 times - again, there would be no question.

Here's a 'gun' example, let's use a Tau Supremacy Railgun - each HIT that wounds and (not saved or negated) willd cause DAMAGE to the target. There are two types of damage it can deal out. Each such wounding hit does D6 damage in wounds per hit normally. Furthermore, on a roll of a 6+ to hit though, the target takes D3 Mortal Wounds of damage in addition to the normal D6 wounds damage. NOTE, it's all still a single successful hit... the single HIT of a 6+ will cause D6 damage + D3 Mortal Wounds. The read of the Saviour protocols seems to state that all damage from the hit is ignored when the drone savior protocols kick in, and it all becomes a single mortal wound.

Anyway, just throwing it out there to chew on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 yakface wrote:


...But also agreed that each mortal wound is a separate attack, and therefore would have to be resolved separately against the drone unit.

You lose me here. Where does it state that Mortal Wounds from Smite are a separate attack?

It's a single spell, with a single test for success.

BTW, please also see also the Supremacy Rail gun example above if you have time.

Appreciate the time in advance,

 Tactica wrote:

 yakface wrote:


...But also agreed that each mortal wound is a separate attack, and therefore would have to be resolved separately against the drone unit.

You lose me here. Where does it state that Mortal Wounds from Smite are a separate attack?

It's a single spell, with a single test for success.

BTW, please also see also the Supremacy Rail gun example above if you have time.

Appreciate the time in advance,

Read the rules for mortal wounds in the rulebook. Each mortal wound is always treated as a separate attack.

 yakface wrote:


Read the rules for mortal wounds in the rulebook. Each mortal wound is always treated as a separate attack.

@yakface,

Thank you for the quick reply. I've got the electronic version in front of me now. I've searched and read all mortal wound entries. I think this is the paragraph you are referencing.

Pg. 256.

" Mortal Wounds

Some attacks inflict mortal wounds - these are so powerful that no armor or force field can withstand their fury. Each mortal wound inflicts one point of damage on the target unit. Do not make a wound roll or saving throw (including inv saves) against a mortal wound - just allo9cate it as you would any other wound and inflict damage to a model in the target unit as described above. Unlike normal attacks, excess damage from attacks that inflict mortal wounds is not lost. Instead keep allocating damage to another model in the target unit unitl either all the damage has been allocated or the target unit is destroyed."

I cannot find anywhere in that paragraph of the rules that suggests "Each mortal wound is always treated as a separate attack."

In fact, the paragraph seems to directly support that mortal wounds are damage and excess mortal wound damage is not *normally* lost. However savior protocol expressly states that you ignore all the normal damage from the attack, and allocate a single mortal wound instead.

Can you please reference a page number and quote?

I apologize in advance if I'm just missing it, and I appreciate the patience,

"Unlike normal attacks, excess damage from attacks that inflict mortal wounds is not lost. Instead keep allocating damage to another model in the target unit unitl either all the damage has been allocated or the target unit is destroyed" The normal rules for wound allocation assume you allocate them one at a time.

The parts you're overlooking are here (emphasis mine):

Some attacks inflict mortal wounds - these are so powerful that no armor or force field can withstand their fury. Each mortal wound inflicts one point of damage on the target unit. Do not make a wound roll or saving throw (including inv saves) against a mortal wound - just allocate it as you would any other wound and inflict damage to a model in the target unit as described above. Unlike normal attacks, excess damage from attacks that inflict mortal wounds is not lost. Instead keep allocating damage to another model in the target unit until either all the damage has been allocated or the target unit is destroyed.

Each mortal wound inflicts one point of damage on the target UNIT and then you allocate each wound to a model in the unit. So its clear that each mortal wound is allocated separately, not like other types of attacks which are able to inflict multiple points of damage based off a single wound.

So in the case of your Tau Supremacy Railgun example, each standard wound caused by the weapon could be re-allocated to a Tau Drone unit using Savior Protocols (and would turn into a single mortal wound), but each mortal wound caused by the Supremacy Railgun is allocated separately, and therefore each one would be re-allocated separately using Savior Protocls (with each mortal wound turning into a mortal wound on the Drone unit).

@yakface,

Thank you for the explanation. However, it seems like your argument only supports my understanding, it doesn't disagree with it at all.

To attack, you pick a target unit(s).
To shoot you roll to hit based on your own skill.
To wound, you roll vs. the target units toughness.
The owning player now allocates the damage to a model, per wounding hit, and rolls to save.
Damage is applied to a model until it is dead or no more damage to apply.
Normal damage doesn't carry through.

Mortal wounds don't roll to wound, they in effect auto wound.
You apply damage to the unit in the exact same way, all to one model first, as the rule states.
Where it becomes different, is that excess wounds will carry through.

However, this is all still DAMAGE from the hit... nowhere does it say these are additional attacks or additional hits... it's just damage. The mortal wound rule even says "some attacks inflict mortal wounds", this is clearly saying that mortal wounds are damage, not hits. It even says, you allocate the damage just the same as you would any other wound... and inflict DAMAGE to a model in the target unit as described above (i.e. normal wounding procedure.)

It seems as written, Mortal Wounds are just damage you don't roll to wound for, and that carry through instead of stopping on a model once applied.

To that end, Savior Protocols state that you ignore all the damage, and replace it with a single mortal wound instead.

Seems terribly simple and straight forward.

Q. Can Quantum Shielding be used to prevent damage caused
by mortal wounds?
A. No. Mortal wounds are inflicted one at a time, and
as quantum shielding can never prevent a single point
of damage from being suffered, it cannot prevent
mortal wounds.

With respect, that's answering a completely different question. How or whether you apply the damage to quantum shielding is simply, different. Yet - it is still damage.

Savior Protocols still replace all of the damage from the hit... So... seems clear and I agree with you, Quantum Shielding is different.

Savior protocols transfer one suffered wound at a time, correct?

Once the wound is unsaved, it is allocated to the drone, then move to the next wound.

A single 'attack' (say, a devastator squad with 4 lascannons) can do multiple 'wounds' and each 'wound' can do mutliple damage.

The drones intercept the 'wounds' but not the entire attack. 4 Lascannons would inflict (if they all hit and wound and all saves are failed) 4 Wounds, and kill 4 drones.

Similarly, smite inflicts d3 unsaved Wounds (since it ignores rolls to hit, rolls to wound, and saves), and would kill d3 Drones.

A single drone does not absorb a whole attack; rather, it absorbs a whole wound, regardless of the damage value after the wound.

 Tactica wrote:
It seems as written, Mortal Wounds are just damage you don't roll to wound for, and that carry through instead of stopping on a model once applied.

This is where you're wrong. Mortal Wounds replace step 2 of the 'Resolve Attacks' process. You still allocate the Mortal Wound just as you would a Wound.

 Tactica wrote:
With respect, that's answering a completely different question. How or whether you apply the damage to quantum shielding is simply, different. Yet - it is still damage.

Savior Protocols still replace all of the damage from the hit... So... seems clear and I agree with you, Quantum Shielding is different.

Fragile's point was (backed up by Yakface's posting of the MW rules above) "Mortal wounds are inflicted one at a time" from the answer tells you that a Drone cannot absorb D3 Mortal Wounds in one go.

 Tactica wrote:
@yakface,

Thank you for the explanation. However, it seems like your argument only supports my understanding, it doesn't disagree with it at all.

To attack, you pick a target unit(s).
To shoot you roll to hit based on your own skill.
To wound, you roll vs. the target units toughness.
The owning player now allocates the damage to a model, per wounding hit, and rolls to save.
Damage is applied to a model until it is dead or no more damage to apply.
Normal damage doesn't carry through.

Mortal wounds don't roll to wound, they in effect auto wound.
You apply damage to the unit in the exact same way, all to one model first, as the rule states.
Where it becomes different, is that excess wounds will carry through.

However, this is all still DAMAGE from the hit... nowhere does it say these are additional attacks or additional hits... it's just damage. The mortal wound rule even says "some attacks inflict mortal wounds", this is clearly saying that mortal wounds are damage, not hits. It even says, you allocate the damage just the same as you would any other wound... and inflict DAMAGE to a model in the target unit as described above (i.e. normal wounding procedure.)

It seems as written, Mortal Wounds are just damage you don't roll to wound for, and that carry through instead of stopping on a model once applied.

To that end, Savior Protocols state that you ignore all the damage, and replace it with a single mortal wound instead.

Seems terribly simple and straight forward.

It's not mortal damage. It mortal wounds. You roll 4 hits. You roll 2 wounds. Each wound would apply 3 damage. You allocate the first wound, you have a drone take it. It becomes a single a mortal wound. Drone dies. You allocate the second wound. No more drones. 3 damage is applied to a single model.

You cast smite. You do 3 mortal wounds. Each mortal wound does not need to be rolled for it wounds automatically. Each mortal wound deals 1 damage. You apply the first mortal wound. You have the drone take it. It becomes a single mortal wound. You apply the next mortal wound... etc etc...




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tactica wrote:
With respect, that's answering a completely different question. How or whether you apply the damage to quantum shielding is simply, different. Yet - it is still damage.

Savior Protocols still replace all of the damage from the hit... So... seems clear and I agree with you, Quantum Shielding is different.

No. Wrong. It's answering the exact same question. Quantum shielding kicks in to absorb all the the damage from a single shot/swing/attack. If a gun fires 3 times and wounds 3 times and each wound deals 4 damage then quantum shielding needs to be rolled 3 times.

By your argument smite would be dealing d6 damage, so as long as smite deals more than 1 mortal wound quantum shielding would be able to kick in. But it can't. Because mortal wounds are not themselves damage. They deal 1 damage each. Mortal Wounds are a variation on wounds. The second step of the process. Not the 3rd.

So here are the 2 arguments

Argument 1 - Smite's "d3" is transferred, then Mortal Wounds are decided

Argument 2 - Smite is resolved, Mortal Wounds are decided, each Mortal Wound becomes a new different damage, then it is transferred.

 Talamare wrote:
So here are the 2 arguments

Argument 1 - Smite's "d3" is transferred, then Mortal Wounds are decided

Argument 2 - Smite is resolved, Mortal Wounds are decided, each Mortal Wound becomes a new different damage, then it is transferred.

Both the wording of the mortal wounds rules in the rulebook and the quantum shielding ruling in the FAQ make argument #1 completely invalid.

how does this work in a similar situation such as tyrant guard? do you roll for damage first then apply, or do the guard "intercept" the hit then roll for damage?
.

peirceg wrote:
how does this work in a similar situation such as tyrant guard? do you roll for damage first then apply, or do the guard "intercept" the hit then roll for damage?
.

You don't roll damage. You allocate the wound to unit/character. They roll their save. The unsaved wound can then be intercepted by the protector.

You have x number of mortal wounds. So you allocate a (read 1) MW to a unit/character... They cannot save, it's a mortal wound. The unsaved wound can be intercepted by the protector.

does that mean that a tyrant guard can only suffer 1 mortal wound? wow!

No, their rule is worded differently - "each time Hive Tyrant loses a wound" rather than "wounding hit". So a Tyrant Guard tanks each wound separately. A multi-wound hit would need to be tanked a wound at a time, not one MW for the whole attack.

As much as we like patterns, the bespoke nature of 8th unit rules means you must treat each separately

 JohnnyHell wrote:
No, their rule is worded differently - "each time Hive Tyrant loses a wound" rather than "wounding hit". So a Tyrant Guard tanks each wound separately. A multi-wound hit would need to be tanked a wound at a time, not one MW for the whole attack.

As much as we like patterns, the bespoke nature of 8th unit rules means you must treat each separately

This is true. But also stupid and probably a typo. Drones used to work the same way until they got FAQed to be in line with the other protector units. Regardless. Each MW is it's own "wound" that must be intercepted separately.

 Lance845 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
No, their rule is worded differently - "each time Hive Tyrant loses a wound" rather than "wounding hit". So a Tyrant Guard tanks each wound separately. A multi-wound hit would need to be tanked a wound at a time, not one MW for the whole attack.

As much as we like patterns, the bespoke nature of 8th unit rules means you must treat each separately

This is true. But also stupid and probably a typo. Drones used to work the same way until they got FAQed to be in line with the other protector units. Regardless. Each MW is it's own "wound" that must be intercepted separately.

Are you saying it's intended to work the same?

I actually think it's worded different because Tyrant Guard are protecting MC's that are normally targetable all the time, as opposed to Commander Suits who are somewhat protected by the Character Rule.

 Lance845 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
No, their rule is worded differently - "each time Hive Tyrant loses a wound" rather than "wounding hit". So a Tyrant Guard tanks each wound separately. A multi-wound hit would need to be tanked a wound at a time, not one MW for the whole attack.

As much as we like patterns, the bespoke nature of 8th unit rules means you must treat each separately

This is true. But also stupid and probably a typo. Drones used to work the same way until they got FAQed to be in line with the other protector units. Regardless. Each MW is it's own "wound" that must be intercepted separately.

You might be confusing the Bodyguard Rules with the Saviour Protocol

Bodyguard is pretty standard across every faction, it happens AFTER FNP occurs.
Meaning you would get your normal Armor and FNP, as well as another FNP belonging to the Bodyguard

Saviour Protocol is incredibly unique, and happens BEFORE Armor saves
Which is why it was weird when it became a true mortal wound, but now Shield Drones have a 5+ FNP

 Talamare wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
No, their rule is worded differently - "each time Hive Tyrant loses a wound" rather than "wounding hit". So a Tyrant Guard tanks each wound separately. A multi-wound hit would need to be tanked a wound at a time, not one MW for the whole attack.

As much as we like patterns, the bespoke nature of 8th unit rules means you must treat each separately

This is true. But also stupid and probably a typo. Drones used to work the same way until they got FAQed to be in line with the other protector units. Regardless. Each MW is it's own "wound" that must be intercepted separately.

You might be confusing the Bodyguard Rules with the Saviour Protocol

Bodyguard is pretty standard across every faction, it happens AFTER FNP occurs.
Meaning you would get your normal Armor and FNP, as well as another FNP belonging to the Bodyguard

Saviour Protocol is incredibly unique, and happens BEFORE Armor saves
Which is why it was weird when it became a true mortal wound, but now Shield Drones have a 5+ FNP

Yup. My bad on that. All these rules and they keep getting FAQed. I was running off memory and mixed it up.

But on the main topic, none of that changes how Mortal Wounds are treated.

"Saviour Protocols: If a <Sept> Drones unit is within 3" of a friendly <Sept> Infantry or <Sept> Battlesuit unit when an enemy attack successfully wounds it, you can allocate that wound to the Drones unit instead of the target. If you do, that Drones unit suffers a mortal wound instead of the normal damage."



My understanding is a mortal wound is still a "wound", one which is effectively 1 damage per, can be rolled over to other models like your leftover minutes on AT&T, and ignore armor and invulnerable saves. This understanding comes from the Battle Primer:

Some attacks inflict mortal wounds – these
are so powerful that no armour or force field
can withstand their fury. Each mortal wound
inflicts one point of damage on the target
unit. Do not make a wound roll or saving
throw (including invulnerable saves) against a
mortal wound – just allocate it as you would
any other wound and inflict damage to a
model in the target unit as described above.

The enemy attack, Smite, successfully wounds an XV8 Crisis Team and deals 4 mortal wounds. If there are 4 drones within 3", each of those drones can eat one of the mortal wounds, as I read it. If a Railgun hits the Crisis team with a solid shot, and successfully wounds on a 6, a drone can take the wound, suffering a mortal wound and ridding the XV8 team of up to 6 points of damage on one model. Then, because of the railgun's ability, the XV8 team still suffers D3 Mortal wounds, which are resolved precisely as above in the case of Smite, and can be deflected with Savior Protocols.

I would rule differently. The core rules say you do a wound role to see if the target "successfully wounds a target" you then allocate the "successfull wounds"

The drones rule only triggers when an enemy attack "successfully wounds"

Successfully wounds is therefore a defined term

- mortal wounds don't "successfully wound" you allocate them as you would any other wound but they bypass the step at which you "successfully wound"

Therefore the drones rule never triggers and mortal wounds bypass them

U02dah4 wrote:
I would rule differently. The core rules say you do a wound role to see if the target "successfully wounds a target" you then allocate the "successfull wounds"

That's not what it says. It says (emphasis mine):

'If an attack successfully wounds the target, the player commanding the target unit allocates the wound to any model in the unit.'

So you can't have it both ways. If a mortal wound is not a 'successful wound' then it cannot be allocated at all and does nothing at all, ever (as it never gets allocated to a model in the unit). And if a mortal wound does get allocated, then then it must be a successful wound against the target, which means Savior Protocols can be used against it. You cannot have it both ways.

Try reading the paragraph before

" 2. Wound roll. If an attack, scores a hit you will then need to roll another dice to see if the attack sucessfully wounds"

A successful wound is therefore a successful wound roll.

Its not having it both ways it's saying that the tau rule specifically triggers in response to a successfull wound.

Mortal wounds are never successfull wounds because it specifies that you never make a wound roll.

The allocate wounds rule as you quote does start by saying " if an attack successfully wounds a target the player commanding the targeted unit allocates the wound to any model in the unit" that covers normal wound rolls.

The mortal wounds rule itself says that you "allocate as you would any other wound" giving you permission to follow the structure of the allocate wounds system despite not successfully wounding sInce you never made a wound roll.

So the player commanding the targeted unit allocates the mortal wound etc.....

U02dah4 wrote:
Try reading the paragraph before

" 3. Wound roll. If an attack, scores a hit you will then need to role another dice to see if the attack sucessfully wounds"

A successful wound is therefore a successful wound roll.

Its not having it both ways it's saying that the tau rule specifically triggers in response to a successfull wound.

Mortal wounds are never successfull wounds because it specifies that you never make a wound role.

The allocate wounds rule as you quote does start by saying " if an attack successfully wounds a target the player commanding the targeted unit allocates the wound to any model in the unit" that covers normal wound rolls.

The mortal wounds rule itself says that you "allocate as you would any other wound" giving you permission to follow the structure of the allocate wounds system despite not successfully wounding sInce you never made a wound roll.

So the player commanding the targeted unit allocates the mortal wound etc.....

The thing is, you've made 'successful wound' into a (as you say it) 'defined term', when it isn't in any way a defined term. It can equally be understood as exactly as it is written: when the target is successfully wounded, no matter how the target ends up being successfully wounded, it is still technically correct to say that they are successfully wounded when they have a wound that needs to be allocated to models in the unit.

ESPECIALLY when it comes to the wording of how units/models are wounded/suffered damage, the rules are incredibly inconsistent. Just look at GW's blanket ruling on how 'Feel No Pain' style abilities all function the same way (when a model actually loses a wound) despite the fact that there are nearly a half-dozen different ways those types of abilities are worded.

So whatever distinction you're trying to push, is meaningless because 'successfully wounds' is not anything close to a specifically defined game term, as it can just be interpreted as meaning the unit has received wounds that need to be allocated.

U02dah4 wrote:
Try reading the paragraph before

" 3. Wound roll. If an attack, scores a hit you will then need to role another dice to see if the attack sucessfully wounds"

A successful wound is therefore a successful wound roll.

Its not having it both ways it's saying that the tau rule specifically triggers in response to a successfull wound.

Mortal wounds are never successfull wounds because it specifies that you never make a wound role.

The allocate wounds rule as you quote does start by saying " if an attack successfully wounds a target the player commanding the targeted unit allocates the wound to any model in the unit" that covers normal wound rolls.

The mortal wounds rule itself says that you "allocate as you would any other wound" giving you permission to follow the structure of the allocate wounds system despite not successfully wounding sInce you never made a wound roll.

So the player commanding the targeted unit allocates the mortal wound etc.....

Even if we pretend this is correct, the rules for mortal wounds specifically state you dont roll for them. They wound automatically. I.e. they are all successful wounds by nature of being.

Well no because you either accept that RAW its defined as a successfull wound roll. The explicit thing being "roll" in which case no wound role has been made so there is no success as you've bypassed that step.

Or you are use success colloquially which is what your doing which leads to a different outcome. I was successfull because I auto passed.
Thing is in the mortal wounds raw it says "you do not make a wound roll". Not "you wound automatically." Which is why that step is bypassed not autopassed

You can't accept that it's a defined term then ignore that definition

U02dah4 wrote:
Well no because you either accept that RAW its defined as a successfull wound role. The explicit thing being "roll" in which case no wound role has been made so there is no success as you've bypassed that step.

Or you are use success colloquially which is what your doing which leads to a different outcome. I was successfull because I auto passed.
Thing is in the mortal wounds raw it says "you do not make a wound roll". Not "you wound automatically." Which is why that step is bypassed not autopassed

You can't accept that it's a defined term then ignore that definition

The argument you are making is as pointless as the one that says RAW you cannot shoot pistols or assault weapons in the situations where you would be able to shoot them because according to RAW you cannot select their units if they advance or are within 1" of an enemy unit.

Even if what you were saying wasn't basically nonsense, it's nonsense that would make it so Mortal Wounds do nothing. But since that IS nonsense, and also irrelevant to the actual topic, why don't we just shelve it?

U02dah4 wrote:
Well no because you either accept that RAW its defined as a successfull wound role. The explicit thing being "roll" in which case no wound role has been made so there is no success as you've bypassed that step.

Or you are use success colloquially which is what your doing which leads to a different outcome. I was successfull because I auto passed.
Thing is in the mortal wounds raw it says "you do not make a wound roll". Not "you wound automatically." Which is why that step is bypassed not autopassed

You can't accept that it's a defined term then ignore that definition

No it works perfectly fine colloquially. auto-passing something still means you have successfully done it. A unit that has suffered a mortal wound has been successfully wounded, because it is automatically wounded.

There is nothing remotely approaching a defined term when it comes to 'successfully wounds' in the rules. It just means that the attack successfully managed to cause a wound on the target unit. It is entirely unimportant how the unit managed to suffer that wound.

So we disagree on two points

First agreed auto passing means you have successfully done it.

However you do not auto pass a wound roll in a mortal wound you "do not make a wound roll" just as you do not fail a save roll you do not make one. If the mortal wound rule said auto pass or auto wound I would be agreeing with you because you have then made a wound roll so you would have successfully wounded. But it doesn't it explicitly says you don't make a roll.

Secondally how is

" 2. Wound roll. If an attack, scores a hit you will then need to roll another dice to see if the attack sucessfully wounds the target"

Not a definition

With the next step saying "if an attack successfully wounds the target"

You have gone from testing to see if you successfully wound to if you successfully wounded

It seems reasonable to infer from those two statements that RAW passing the wound roll corresponds to successfully wounding (a definition)

This is a really petty thing but reading your posts it's driving me up a wall. It's roll. Not role. So far you have used role in place of roll at least once in every post in this thread.

I'm sorry. I know it's inconsequential. But please, stop.

I don't follow this "successful" argument at all, and it stinks of TFG.

Regardless of how it's accomplished - whether by successfully casting smite, successfully rolling a 6 to wound with a railgun, or successfully pulling off some other means of inflicting a mortal wound, it is still a wound: The target model, whether wounded by a mortal wound (say of 1 damage point), or a mortal wound, it still loses that number of wounds from its profile, until it reaches 0 wounds remaining and is removed from play.

Again, from the rules:

allocate [mortal wounds] as you would
any other wound and inflict damage to a
model in the target unit as described above*

*Allocate Wound: If an attack
successfully wounds the target,
the player commanding the
target unit allocates the wound to
any model in the unit (the chosen
model does not have to be within
range or visible to the attacking
unit). If a model in the target
unit has already lost any wounds,
the damage must be allocated to
that model.*

*Savior Protocols

I can't for the life of me imagine how someone could digest all of this and conclude that a mortal wound is somehow an unsuccessful wound, yet can still kill models, but in such a convoluted way such as to negate the function of drone special rules. Unless you're just not a fan of T'au.

 Overheal wrote:
I don't follow this "successful" argument at all, and it stinks of TFG.

Regardless of how it's accomplished - whether by successfully casting smite, successfully rolling a 6 to wound with a railgun, or successfully pulling off some other means of inflicting a mortal wound, it is still a wound: The target model, whether wounded by a mortal wound (say of 1 damage point), or a mortal wound, it still loses that number of wounds from its profile, until it reaches 0 wounds remaining and is removed from play.

Again, from the rules:

allocate [mortal wounds] as you would
any other wound and inflict damage to a
model in the target unit as described above*

*Allocate Wound: If an attack
successfully wounds the target,
the player commanding the
target unit allocates the wound to
any model in the unit (the chosen
model does not have to be within
range or visible to the attacking
unit). If a model in the target
unit has already lost any wounds,
the damage must be allocated to
that model.*

*Savior Protocols

So Savior Protocols works per mortal wound, then, rather than absorbing all 3 (if a 3 is rolled on the d3) in one drone. Glad we're in agreement!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


So Savior Protocols works per mortal wound, then, rather than absorbing all 3 (if a 3 is rolled on the d3) in one drone. Glad we're in agreement!

Nowhere in my posts have I declared differently!?

 Overheal wrote:
The enemy attack, Smite, successfully wounds an XV8 Crisis Team and deals 4 mortal wounds. If there are 4 drones within 3", each of those drones can eat one of the mortal wounds, as I read it.

Naturally, if Smite were to cast 6 mortal wounds, 6 drones would be killed via Savior Protocols if they wished to spare the primary target from the attack. If it landed 2 mortal wounds, 2 drones would die. Etcetera.

In the case of a railgun, which deals D6 Damage, and has an Effect rule that states it causes D3 Mortal wounds in addition to damage if you Wound-roll a 6+, you would need at most 4 drones to absorb the blow - 1 drone for the D6 normal wounding damage, and up to 3 for the D3 mortal wounds.

Partially just to re-light a fire:
Saviour Protocols: If a <Sept> Drones unit is within 3" of a friendly <Sept> Infantry or <Sept> Battlesuit unit when an enemy attack successfully wounds it, you can allocate that wound to the Drones unit instead of the target. If you do, that Drones unit suffers a mortal wound instead of the normal damage.

The wounds caused by smite, though mortal wounds would be smites normal damage, so that all gets summed up into "a mortal wound"

 pumaman1 wrote:
Partially just to re-light a fire:
Saviour Protocols: If a <Sept> Drones unit is within 3" of a friendly <Sept> Infantry or <Sept> Battlesuit unit when an enemy attack successfully wounds it, you can allocate that wound to the Drones unit instead of the target. If you do, that Drones unit suffers a mortal wound instead of the normal damage.

The wounds caused by smite, though mortal wounds would be smites normal damage, so that all gets summed up into "a mortal wound"

No. I don't know where you're getting that from. For all intents and purposes, mortal wounds are wounds worth 1 point of equivalent damage that cannot be blocked my armor saves, cover saves, or invulnerable saves, and can be rolled over to additional models if the first model has no more remaining wounds. Smite is very clearly and plainly written, as I have posted above, and now here:



In no way could Savior Protocols be interpreted as one drone being able to take the entire Psychic Power (up to 6 mortal wounds) and apply it to itself as only 1 mortal wound. That's not how any of this works. Savior Protocols very plainly states you allocate the wounds. You do not allocate the whole psychic power!

 Overheal wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
Partially just to re-light a fire:
Saviour Protocols: If a <Sept> Drones unit is within 3" of a friendly <Sept> Infantry or <Sept> Battlesuit unit when an enemy attack successfully wounds it, you can allocate that wound to the Drones unit instead of the target. If you do, that Drones unit suffers a mortal wound instead of the normal damage.

The wounds caused by smite, though mortal wounds would be smites normal damage, so that all gets summed up into "a mortal wound"

In no way could Savior Protocols be interpreted as one drone being able to take the entire Psychic Power (up to 6 mortal wounds) and apply it to itself as only 1 mortal wound. That's not how any of this works.

I'm on neither side of this argument, but I want to point out that it kinda of IS how Saviour Protocol works.

It takes an entire damage value and converts it into 1 Mortal Wound.

If a weapon said it deals 400000000000000000d100 damage, it will convert that to 1 Mortal Wound.

His argument is
Smite deals d3 damage, Saviour Protocol transfers the d3 which it then converts into 1 Mortal Wound

The otherside basic argument is that
d3 is determined first, then Saviour Protocol transfers each damage individually


The idea behind his argument is that the d3 for Smite is determined on Step 5 of the attack resolution step.
Saviour Protocol happens at Step 3 of the attack resolution step

 Overheal wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
Partially just to re-light a fire:
Saviour Protocols: If a <Sept> Drones unit is within 3" of a friendly <Sept> Infantry or <Sept> Battlesuit unit when an enemy attack successfully wounds it, you can allocate that wound to the Drones unit instead of the target. If you do, that Drones unit suffers a mortal wound instead of the normal damage.

The wounds caused by smite, though mortal wounds would be smites normal damage, so that all gets summed up into "a mortal wound"

No. I don't know where you're getting that from. For all intents and purposes, mortal wounds are wounds worth 1 point of equivalent damage that cannot be blocked my armor saves, cover saves, or invulnerable saves, and can be rolled over to additional models if the first model has no more remaining wounds. Smite is very clearly and plainly written, as I have posted above, and now here:



In no way could Savior Protocols be interpreted as one drone being able to take the entire Psychic Power (up to 6 mortal wounds) and apply it to itself as only 1 mortal wound. That's not how any of this works. Savior Protocols very plainly states you allocate the wounds. You do not allocate the whole psychic power!

LOL so serious
But it is "normal" that smite causes d3 mortal wounds, so d3 mortal wounds are its normal damage. You could much more easily make the case that to wound rolls of 6 causing mortal wounds, or smite roll of 10+ causing d6 are abnormal damage states, that those would get around it, but thanks to "normal damage" and smite having a "normal" d3 mortal wounds, the drone may still soak up d3 mortal wounds for 1 mortal wound.

I am not TFG, I am okay with my opponent damaging my units, I am there to have fun, but your arguments ignore the "normal" damage. Any amount of damage that is "normal" could be summed into 1 mortal wound on the drone.

Are you arguing that mortal wounds =/= "normal,"

You guys are having an equivocation fallacy.

When GW wrote 'damage' for Savior Protocols, they meant the 'damage' stat of the attack in question.

They didn't mean 'damage' as in 'every possible outcome of the singe attack.' Since mortal wounds have no damage stat (or, arguably, a damage stat of 1, depending on your interpretation of what a damage stat is), then ... well you get the idea. The drone absorbs 1 mortal wound's worth of damage, which happens to be 1. It does not absorb all of the damage from one attack.

Again, as my example above (which no one addressed):

A single Devastator Squad firing 4 Lascannons at a target is a singe 'attack'. Each lascannon can get an unsaved wound: 4. Each lascannon also does d6 damage, giving a potential 4d6 damage. However, a nearby drone can take one of the wounds and turns all of its damage into 1 mortal wound, killing the drone and leaving only 3d6 damage on whatever the drone savior'd.

The second reply to this thread gave the correct answer.

From 'Mortal Wounds', pg. 181

Each mortal wound inflicts one point of damage on the target unit.

So no, the 'Mortal Wounds' is not the damage. The one point of damage inflicted by a Mortal Wound is the damage.

 Ghaz wrote:
From 'Mortal Wounds', pg. 181

Each mortal wound inflicts one point of damage on the target unit.

So no, the 'Mortal Wounds' is not the damage. The one point of damage inflicted by a Mortal Wound is the damage.

Exactly. They're confusing 'damage' the stat value with 'damage' the colloquial term for harm.

Smite can 'damage' (colloquial) a target even if a drone has intercepted the 'damage' (stat) of one of the mortal wounds that Smite deals.

 Talamare wrote:

 Overheal wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
Partially just to re-light a fire:
Saviour Protocols: If a <Sept> Drones unit is within 3" of a friendly <Sept> Infantry or <Sept> Battlesuit unit when an enemy attack successfully wounds it, you can allocate that wound to the Drones unit instead of the target. If you do, that Drones unit suffers a mortal wound instead of the normal damage.

The wounds caused by smite, though mortal wounds would be smites normal damage, so that all gets summed up into "a mortal wound"

In no way could Savior Protocols be interpreted as one drone being able to take the entire Psychic Power (up to 6 mortal wounds) and apply it to itself as only 1 mortal wound. That's not how any of this works.

I'm on neither side of this argument, but I want to point out that it kinda of IS how Saviour Protocol works.

It takes an entire damage value and converts it into 1 Mortal Wound.

If a weapon said it deals 400000000000000000d100 damage, it will convert that to 1 Mortal Wound.

His argument is
Smite deals d3 damage , Saviour Protocol transfers the d3 which it then converts into 1 Mortal Wound

The otherside basic argument is that
d3 is determined first, then Saviour Protocol transfers each damage individually


The idea behind his argument is that the d3 for Smite is determined on Step 5 of the attack resolution step.
Saviour Protocol happens at Step 3 of the attack resolution step

 pumaman1 wrote:


LOL so serious
But it is "normal" that smite causes d3 mortal wounds, so d3 mortal wounds are its normal damage. You could much more easily make the case that to wound rolls of 6 causing mortal wounds, or smite roll of 10+ causing d6 are abnormal damage states, that those would get around it, but thanks to "normal damage" and smite having a "normal" d3 mortal wounds, the drone may still soak up d3 mortal wounds for 1 mortal wound.

I am not TFG, I am okay with my opponent damaging my units, I am there to have fun, but your arguments ignore the "normal" damage. Any amount of damage that is "normal" could be summed into 1 mortal wound on the drone.

Are you arguing that mortal wounds =/= "normal,"

Except that Smite in no way states it deals D3 damage, it deals D3 Mortal Wounds. As Ghaz already highlighted, "each mortal wound inflicts one point of damage on the target unit." Whether the power deals D3 MW, or D6 MW, is irrelevant to that interpretation. Same with the railgun: if the railgun had 2 shots, 2 drones would take MWs to absorb the hits. If one of those shots wounded on a 6, D3 additional drones would absorb MWs with SP.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have some T'au Cheese but I can't see any RAW or RAI that a drone should be able to soak the entire Smite ability as one mortal wound.

Unit1126PLL's example with the lascannons appears to be a correct interpretation of the RAW.

 Talamare wrote:

 Overheal wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
Partially just to re-light a fire:
Saviour Protocols: If a <Sept> Drones unit is within 3" of a friendly <Sept> Infantry or <Sept> Battlesuit unit when an enemy attack successfully wounds it, you can allocate that wound to the Drones unit instead of the target. If you do, that Drones unit suffers a mortal wound instead of the normal damage.

The wounds caused by smite, though mortal wounds would be smites normal damage, so that all gets summed up into "a mortal wound"

In no way could Savior Protocols be interpreted as one drone being able to take the entire Psychic Power (up to 6 mortal wounds) and apply it to itself as only 1 mortal wound. That's not how any of this works.

I'm on neither side of this argument, but I want to point out that it kinda of IS how Saviour Protocol works.

It takes an entire damage value and converts it into 1 Mortal Wound.

If a weapon said it deals 400000000000000000d100 damage, it will convert that to 1 Mortal Wound.

His argument is
Smite deals d3 damage, Saviour Protocol transfers the d3 which it then converts into 1 Mortal Wound

The otherside basic argument is that
d3 is determined first, then Saviour Protocol transfers each damage individually


The idea behind his argument is that the d3 for Smite is determined on Step 5 of the attack resolution step.
Saviour Protocol happens at Step 3 of the attack resolution step

Except by step it's to late it triggers at the end of 2. Which mortal wounds skip

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

A single Devastator Squad firing 4 Lascannons at a target is a singe 'attack'. Each lascannon can get an unsaved wound: 4. Each lascannon also does d6 damage, giving a potential 4d6 damage. However, a nearby drone can take one of the wounds and turns all of its damage into 1 mortal wound, killing the drone and leaving only 3d6 damage on whatever the drone savior'd.

I want to say "No" to so much of this.

4 Lascannons is not a single Attack, it's 4 Attacks.
A Flamer is d6 Attacks, 5 separate Flamers is 5d6 separate Attacks.

Each Lascannon deals d6 damage, giving each Lascannon a potential of d6 damage.
You do NOT add up each separate Lascannon damage. Since there does exist weapons that deal 2d6 damage.
This is important so that you can understand that each d6 damage can at most kill only a single model.

 Talamare wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

A single Devastator Squad firing 4 Lascannons at a target is a singe 'attack'. Each lascannon can get an unsaved wound: 4. Each lascannon also does d6 damage, giving a potential 4d6 damage. However, a nearby drone can take one of the wounds and turns all of its damage into 1 mortal wound, killing the drone and leaving only 3d6 damage on whatever the drone savior'd.

I want to say "No" to so much of this.

4 Lascannons is not a single Attack, it's 4 Attacks.
A Flamer is d6 Attacks, 5 separate Flamers is 5 separate Attacks.

Each Lascannon deals d6 damage, giving each Lascannon a potential of d6 damage.
You do NOT add up each separate Lascannon damage. Since there does exist weapons that deal 2d6 damage.
This is important so that you can understand that each d6 damage can at most kill only a single model.

Everything you say here is true except that there are weapons that deal 2d6 dmg. Dire Bio Cannons on a Heirophant are an example.

Hmm....Saviour Protocols: If a <Sept> Drones unit is within 3" of a friendly <Sept> Infantry or <Sept> Battlesuit unit when an enemy attack successfully wounds it, you can allocate that wound to the Drones unit instead of the target. If you do, that Drones unit suffers a mortal wound instead of the normal damage.

I don't have the rules with me today, but does it say anywhere that smite/psychic powers are an attack? permissive rule sets, things aren't/can't until they specifically can. The manifest powers, pass tests results happen, but I can't recall if psyker abilities are called out as attacks. Maybe we cannot savior protocol any from psychic attacks?

That said really, Tau could use something to do/some basic defense in the psychic phase. We don't even have a talisman of atras molach for 50 points anymore.

 Talamare wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

A single Devastator Squad firing 4 Lascannons at a target is a singe 'attack'. Each lascannon can get an unsaved wound: 4. Each lascannon also does d6 damage, giving a potential 4d6 damage. However, a nearby drone can take one of the wounds and turns all of its damage into 1 mortal wound, killing the drone and leaving only 3d6 damage on whatever the drone savior'd.

I want to say "No" to so much of this.

4 Lascannons is not a single Attack, it's 4 Attacks.
A Flamer is d6 Attacks, 5 separate Flamers is 5 separate Attacks.

Each Lascannon deals d6 damage, giving each Lascannon a potential of d6 damage.
You do NOT add up each separate Lascannon damage. Since there does exist weapons that deal 2d6 damage.
This is important so that you can understand that each d6 damage can at most kill only a single model.

Your first two lines contradict themselves. Is a single Flamer d6 attacks, or are 5 flamers 5 attacks? Or 5d6 attacks?

And you might as well add up the lascannon damage. Against one of the tanks in my 3-baneblade company, most people roll 4 dice, then 4 dice, then I roll my saves, then they roll 4d6 damage, and my baneblade is hurt (again for brevity I am assuming every roll comes out in the opponent's favor).

4d6 damage is anywhere from 4-24 damage, meaning that it may very well not be enough to kill even an SM captain or a Sororitas canoness, or it could be enough to one-shot a Knight. If they're all firing at the same unit, you might as well roll them together (unless your opponent interrupts your shooting process with Savior Protocols or whathaveyou).

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

A single Devastator Squad firing 4 Lascannons at a target is a singe 'attack'. Each lascannon can get an unsaved wound: 4. Each lascannon also does d6 damage, giving a potential 4d6 damage. However, a nearby drone can take one of the wounds and turns all of its damage into 1 mortal wound, killing the drone and leaving only 3d6 damage on whatever the drone savior'd.

I want to say "No" to so much of this.

4 Lascannons is not a single Attack, it's 4 Attacks.
A Flamer is d6 Attacks, 5 separate Flamers is 5 separate Attacks.

Each Lascannon deals d6 damage, giving each Lascannon a potential of d6 damage.
You do NOT add up each separate Lascannon damage. Since there does exist weapons that deal 2d6 damage.
This is important so that you can understand that each d6 damage can at most kill only a single model.

Your first two lines contradict themselves. Is a single Flamer d6 attacks, or are 5 flamers 5 attacks? Or 5d6 attacks?

And you might as well add up the lascannon damage. Against one of the tanks in my 3-baneblade company, most people roll 4 dice, then 4 dice, then I roll my saves, then they roll 4d6 damage, and my baneblade is hurt (again for brevity I am assuming every roll comes out in the opponent's favor).

4d6 damage is anywhere from 4-24 damage, meaning that it may very well not be enough to kill even an SM captain or a Sororitas canoness, or it could be enough to one-shot a Knight. If they're all firing at the same unit, you might as well roll them together (unless your opponent interrupts your shooting process with Savior Protocols or whathaveyou).

since every model has split fire, and every gun really has split fire, every gun that fires is an attack. That gun that fires can be combined with other guns that fire for multiple attacks from 1 multi-model unit. But the attack is either assault 3 (3 chances to hit) or d6 (d6 chances to hit) its still 1 attack from 1 gun.
4 lascanons from 4 devastators shoot is 4 attacks, 1 centurion shooting 2 las cannons and 2 heavy bolters is 4 attacks. the heavy bolters shooting 3 times each is sitll 1 attack, becusae when the gun attacks it gets 3 chances to "hit", it cannot chose to shoot more or less.

 pumaman1 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

A single Devastator Squad firing 4 Lascannons at a target is a singe 'attack'. Each lascannon can get an unsaved wound: 4. Each lascannon also does d6 damage, giving a potential 4d6 damage. However, a nearby drone can take one of the wounds and turns all of its damage into 1 mortal wound, killing the drone and leaving only 3d6 damage on whatever the drone savior'd.

I want to say "No" to so much of this.

4 Lascannons is not a single Attack, it's 4 Attacks.
A Flamer is d6 Attacks, 5 separate Flamers is 5 separate Attacks.

Each Lascannon deals d6 damage, giving each Lascannon a potential of d6 damage.
You do NOT add up each separate Lascannon damage. Since there does exist weapons that deal 2d6 damage.
This is important so that you can understand that each d6 damage can at most kill only a single model.

Your first two lines contradict themselves. Is a single Flamer d6 attacks, or are 5 flamers 5 attacks? Or 5d6 attacks?

And you might as well add up the lascannon damage. Against one of the tanks in my 3-baneblade company, most people roll 4 dice, then 4 dice, then I roll my saves, then they roll 4d6 damage, and my baneblade is hurt (again for brevity I am assuming every roll comes out in the opponent's favor).

4d6 damage is anywhere from 4-24 damage, meaning that it may very well not be enough to kill even an SM captain or a Sororitas canoness, or it could be enough to one-shot a Knight. If they're all firing at the same unit, you might as well roll them together (unless your opponent interrupts your shooting process with Savior Protocols or whathaveyou).

since every model has split fire, and every gun really has split fire, every gun that fires is an attack. That gun that fires can be combined with other guns that fire for multiple attacks from 1 multi-model unit. But the attack is either assault 3 (3 chances to hit) or d6 (d6 chances to hit) its still 1 attack from 1 gun.
4 lascanons from 4 devastators shoot is 4 attacks, 1 centurion shooting 2 las cannons and 2 heavy bolters is 4 attacks. the heavy bolters shooting 3 times each is sitll 1 attack, becusae when the gun attacks it gets 3 chances to "hit", it cannot chose to shoot more or less.

So attacks are done by models, not units?

Because 4 lascannons is one 'unit's' attack, but 4 'model's' attacks.

I recognize that a single unit's attack can be split. That doesn't make it more than one attack, in my opinion.

(see the rabbit hole we're going down when you apply colloquial definitions to the rules?)

 pumaman1 wrote:
Hmm....Saviour Protocols: If a <Sept> Drones unit is within 3" of a friendly <Sept> Infantry or <Sept> Battlesuit unit when an enemy attack successfully wounds it, you can allocate that wound to the Drones unit instead of the target. If you do, that Drones unit suffers a mortal wound instead of the normal damage.

I don't have the rules with me today, but does it say anywhere that smite/psychic powers are an attack? permissive rule sets, things aren't/can't until they specifically can. The manifest powers, pass tests results happen, but I can't recall if psyker abilities are called out as attacks. Maybe we cannot savior protocol any from psychic attacks?

That said really, Tau could use something to do/some basic defense in the psychic phase. We don't even have a talisman of atras molach for 50 points anymore.

The subsection on Mortal Wounds says

"Some attacks inflict mortal wounds"

By implication, Smite is an attack, as it inflicts mortal wounds.

 Overheal wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
Hmm....Saviour Protocols: If a <Sept> Drones unit is within 3" of a friendly <Sept> Infantry or <Sept> Battlesuit unit when an enemy attack successfully wounds it, you can allocate that wound to the Drones unit instead of the target. If you do, that Drones unit suffers a mortal wound instead of the normal damage.

I don't have the rules with me today, but does it say anywhere that smite/psychic powers are an attack? permissive rule sets, things aren't/can't until they specifically can. The manifest powers, pass tests results happen, but I can't recall if psyker abilities are called out as attacks. Maybe we cannot savior protocol any from psychic attacks?

That said really, Tau could use something to do/some basic defense in the psychic phase. We don't even have a talisman of atras molach for 50 points anymore.

The subsection on Mortal Wounds says

"Some attacks inflict mortal wounds"

By implication, Smite is an attack, as it inflicts mortal wounds.

not necessarily, that's over-stepping the permissive rule set. Some attacks cause mortal wounds, like non-tau snipers to wounds of 6s, or rail-weaponry rolls of 6s. Those attacks inflict mortal wounds. The nova reactor inflicts a mortal wound, but its not an attack. So the ability to cause a mortal wound does not make it an attack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

A single Devastator Squad firing 4 Lascannons at a target is a singe 'attack'. Each lascannon can get an unsaved wound: 4. Each lascannon also does d6 damage, giving a potential 4d6 damage. However, a nearby drone can take one of the wounds and turns all of its damage into 1 mortal wound, killing the drone and leaving only 3d6 damage on whatever the drone savior'd.

I want to say "No" to so much of this.

4 Lascannons is not a single Attack, it's 4 Attacks.
A Flamer is d6 Attacks, 5 separate Flamers is 5 separate Attacks.

Each Lascannon deals d6 damage, giving each Lascannon a potential of d6 damage.
You do NOT add up each separate Lascannon damage. Since there does exist weapons that deal 2d6 damage.
This is important so that you can understand that each d6 damage can at most kill only a single model.

Your first two lines contradict themselves. Is a single Flamer d6 attacks, or are 5 flamers 5 attacks? Or 5d6 attacks?

And you might as well add up the lascannon damage. Against one of the tanks in my 3-baneblade company, most people roll 4 dice, then 4 dice, then I roll my saves, then they roll 4d6 damage, and my baneblade is hurt (again for brevity I am assuming every roll comes out in the opponent's favor).

4d6 damage is anywhere from 4-24 damage, meaning that it may very well not be enough to kill even an SM captain or a Sororitas canoness, or it could be enough to one-shot a Knight. If they're all firing at the same unit, you might as well roll them together (unless your opponent interrupts your shooting process with Savior Protocols or whathaveyou).

since every model has split fire, and every gun really has split fire, every gun that fires is an attack. That gun that fires can be combined with other guns that fire for multiple attacks from 1 multi-model unit. But the attack is either assault 3 (3 chances to hit) or d6 (d6 chances to hit) its still 1 attack from 1 gun.
4 lascanons from 4 devastators shoot is 4 attacks, 1 centurion shooting 2 las cannons and 2 heavy bolters is 4 attacks. the heavy bolters shooting 3 times each is sitll 1 attack, becusae when the gun attacks it gets 3 chances to "hit", it cannot chose to shoot more or less.

So attacks are done by models, not units?

Because 4 lascannons is one 'unit's' attack, but 4 'model's' attacks.

I recognize that a single unit's attack can be split. That doesn't make it more than one attack, in my opinion.

(see the rabbit hole we're going down when you apply colloquial definitions to the rules?)

Not really, its pretty plain every model makes its own attacks in the rules. we just use fast dice because we are not idiots. and some units are capable of attacking multiple times, such as 3 weapon crisis suits. 1 attack to unit a, 1 attack to unit b, 1 attack to unit c. you attack with a weapon, with set characteristics, but you attack with a weapon, or bare fists in the assault phase

 pumaman1 wrote:

not necessarily, that's over-stepping the permissive rule set. Some attacks cause mortal wounds, like non-tau snipers to wounds of 6s, or rail-weaponry rolls of 6s. Those attacks inflict mortal wounds. The nova reactor inflicts a mortal wound, but its not an attack. So the ability to cause a mortal wound does not make it an attack.

Actually, RAW, Nova Reactor would be an attack - it would not be an enemy attack, just a self-inflicted attack.

‘Saviour Protocols: If a <Sept> Drones unit is within 3"
of a friendly <Sept> Infantry or <Sept> Battlesuit
unit when an enemy attack successfully wounds it, you
can allocate that wound to the Drones unit instead of
the target. If you do, that Drones unit suffers a mortal
wound instead of the normal damage.'

 Overheal wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

not necessarily, that's over-stepping the permissive rule set. Some attacks cause mortal wounds, like non-tau snipers to wounds of 6s, or rail-weaponry rolls of 6s. Those attacks inflict mortal wounds. The nova reactor inflicts a mortal wound, but its not an attack. So the ability to cause a mortal wound does not make it an attack.

Actually, RAW, Nova Reactor would be an attack - it would not be an enemy attack, just a self-inflicted attack.

‘Saviour Protocols: If a <Sept> Drones unit is within 3"
of a friendly <Sept> Infantry or <Sept> Battlesuit
unit when an enemy attack successfully wounds it, you
can allocate that wound to the Drones unit instead of
the target. If you do, that Drones unit suffers a mortal
wound instead of the normal damage.'

Lets review the nova reactor rules again, you may choose to use a nova reactor, if you do, the riptide suffers a mortal wound.

no notes of an attack, its just a result. its not a friendly attack, which you cannot do anyway. Mortal wounds can be caused by non-attacks. and since this is a RAW thread, being YMDC, find in the rules where psyhic powers are in fact attacks.

"Pages 53, 56, 57, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73 and 74 – Saviour Protocols
Change this rule to read:
Saviour Protocols: If a <Sept> Drones unit is within 3" of a friendly <Sept> Infantry or <Sept> Battlesuit unit when an enemy attack successfully wounds it, you can allocate that wound to the Drones unit instead of the target. If you do, that Drones unit suffers a mortal wound instead of the normal damage."

It says you allocate "that wound" singular, not wounds plural. It does not say "you allocate that attack". One wound gets allocated and instead of damage, it gets converted to one mortal wound. With Smite, you have a wound that will deal some amount of damage plus d3 mortal wounds. These would be allocated separately, since Savior protocols specifies "that wound". You would convert the one wound doing normal damage to one dealing a mortal wound. Each mortal wound is allocated separately, and each mortal wound is converted to...a mortal wound, no difference from what you allocated. So, if you had 3 mortal wounds and one wound doing normal damage, you would need a drone unit with at least 4 models because you're allocating 4 mortal wounds.

"Mortal wounds can be caused by non-attacks."

speaking of permissive rulesets, where is this stated?

"its not a friendly attack, which you cannot do anyway."

Don't Orks and IG both have seargants that kill underlings for the sake of morale?

 pumaman1 wrote:
Not really, its pretty plain every model makes its own attacks in the rules. we just use fast dice because we are not idiots. and some units are capable of attacking multiple times, such as 3 weapon crisis suits. 1 attack to unit a, 1 attack to unit b, 1 attack to unit c. you attack with a weapon, with set characteristics, but you attack with a weapon, or bare fists in the assault phase

So a single Battlecannon shot is an 'attack' that shoots d6 times and does d3 damage, does that mean that a drone can absorb all of the Battlecannon's shooting and turn it into one mortal wound?

That may be a better example, and seems to be my understanding of what the 'a single drone can block all of smite's wounds' camp believes.

 Overheal wrote:
"Mortal wounds can be caused by non-attacks."

speaking of permissive rulesets, where is this stated?

"its not a friendly attack, which you cannot do anyway."

Don't Orks and IG both have seargants that kill underlings for the sake of morale?

They have special rules that cause an effect, lose 1 model etc, not "make an attack using the commissars bolt pistol" its a rule that has a result in removing a model. It's not an attack, its like necrons getting back up, its a rule that results in a change in model count. but its not an attack.

mortal wounds are cuased by a good-deal of non-attacks. Heck, even gets hot on Leman russes plasma overcharge, while connected to making an attack, is the result of the rule having a result. the tank was not subject to an attack. cannot lookout sir a gets hot, its not an attack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
Not really, its pretty plain every model makes its own attacks in the rules. we just use fast dice because we are not idiots. and some units are capable of attacking multiple times, such as 3 weapon crisis suits. 1 attack to unit a, 1 attack to unit b, 1 attack to unit c. you attack with a weapon, with set characteristics, but you attack with a weapon, or bare fists in the assault phase

So a single Battlecannon shot is an 'attack' that shoots d6 times and does d3 damage, does that mean that a drone can absorb all of the Battlecannon's shooting and turn it into one mortal wound?

That may be a better example, and seems to be my understanding of what the 'a single drone can block all of smite's wounds' camp believes.

yeah, the battle cannon attacks 1ce, it gets d6 shots with d3 damage, but the battle cannon doesn't get "fired"/initiated/rolled for/etc more than 1ce. If it had the old storm surge you can fire 2ce if your are planted then it could. But your tanks heavy bolters are a seperate attack, and the lascannon on the hull is another attack.
a vulcan mega bolter shooting is 1 attack, with 15/30 "shots" within the attack or chances to hit

"cannot lookout sir a gets hot, its not an attack."

Actually, RAW a Crisis Bodyguard could eat the Gets Hot from a self-inflicted wound by any <SEPT> CHARACTER

Unless the Lookout, Sir rule you're reading on someone else's datacard says "enemy" attacks, it can do this as well.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
Not really, its pretty plain every model makes its own attacks in the rules. we just use fast dice because we are not idiots. and some units are capable of attacking multiple times, such as 3 weapon crisis suits. 1 attack to unit a, 1 attack to unit b, 1 attack to unit c. you attack with a weapon, with set characteristics, but you attack with a weapon, or bare fists in the assault phase

So a single Battlecannon shot is an 'attack' that shoots d6 times and does d3 damage, does that mean that a drone can absorb all of the Battlecannon's shooting and turn it into one mortal wound?

That may be a better example, and seems to be my understanding of what the 'a single drone can block all of smite's wounds' camp believes.

No, Savior protocols turns one wound into a mortal wound, not one shot or one attack. You shoot d6 times, let's say you hit 5 times and ended up with 4 wounds. Each wound could be transferred to the drone unit; in that case instead of d3 damage it would be 1 mortal wound for each wound you transferred. If you were transferring 3 wounds, instead of 3d3 damage on the origiinal target, you'd do 3 mortal wounds on the drone unit

 doctortom wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
Not really, its pretty plain every model makes its own attacks in the rules. we just use fast dice because we are not idiots. and some units are capable of attacking multiple times, such as 3 weapon crisis suits. 1 attack to unit a, 1 attack to unit b, 1 attack to unit c. you attack with a weapon, with set characteristics, but you attack with a weapon, or bare fists in the assault phase

So a single Battlecannon shot is an 'attack' that shoots d6 times and does d3 damage, does that mean that a drone can absorb all of the Battlecannon's shooting and turn it into one mortal wound?

That may be a better example, and seems to be my understanding of what the 'a single drone can block all of smite's wounds' camp believes.

No, Savior protocols turns one wound into a mortal wound, not one shot or one attack. You shoot d6 times, let's say you hit 5 times and ended up with 4 wounds. Each wound could be transferred to the drone unit; in that case instead of d3 damage it would be 1 mortal wound for each wound you transferred. If you were transferring 3 wounds, instead of 3d3 damage on the origiinal target, you'd do 3 mortal wounds on the drone unit

I agree with you, man. I am just trying to understand the logic of the people who say "only one drone absorbs the smite attack" rather than d3 or d6 drones (however many the Smite rolls).

 doctortom wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
Not really, its pretty plain every model makes its own attacks in the rules. we just use fast dice because we are not idiots. and some units are capable of attacking multiple times, such as 3 weapon crisis suits. 1 attack to unit a, 1 attack to unit b, 1 attack to unit c. you attack with a weapon, with set characteristics, but you attack with a weapon, or bare fists in the assault phase

So a single Battlecannon shot is an 'attack' that shoots d6 times and does d3 damage, does that mean that a drone can absorb all of the Battlecannon's shooting and turn it into one mortal wound?

That may be a better example, and seems to be my understanding of what the 'a single drone can block all of smite's wounds' camp believes.

No, Savior protocols turns one wound into a mortal wound, not one shot or one attack. You shoot d6 times, let's say you hit 5 times and ended up with 4 wounds. Each wound could be transferred to the drone unit; in that case instead of d3 damage it would be 1 mortal wound for each wound you transferred. If you were transferring 3 wounds, instead of 3d3 damage on the origiinal target, you'd do 3 mortal wounds on the drone unit

no, it transmits the "normal damage" into 1 mortal wound, so it can do 700000000 damage, it is all summed into 1 mortal wound, if it was just the 1 "shot" at the very least. if not full attack. Doesn't matter if your lascannon rolled a 6 on damage this time, its still just 1 attack. If your make an attack with a heavy 3d6 s8 ap-4, you sitll have 1 attack that can be summed into 1 drone with 1 mortal wound. if you have 2 models/ guns shooting heavy 3d6 s8 ap-4 attacks, then you will need 2 drones

It seems they're reading "the attack" when it says "the wound" , perhaps? I would think that it saying "the wound" should be enough of an indicator that something's wrong if you're trying to convert more than one wound into one mortal wound.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
Not really, its pretty plain every model makes its own attacks in the rules. we just use fast dice because we are not idiots. and some units are capable of attacking multiple times, such as 3 weapon crisis suits. 1 attack to unit a, 1 attack to unit b, 1 attack to unit c. you attack with a weapon, with set characteristics, but you attack with a weapon, or bare fists in the assault phase

So a single Battlecannon shot is an 'attack' that shoots d6 times and does d3 damage, does that mean that a drone can absorb all of the Battlecannon's shooting and turn it into one mortal wound?

That may be a better example, and seems to be my understanding of what the 'a single drone can block all of smite's wounds' camp believes.

No, Savior protocols turns one wound into a mortal wound, not one shot or one attack. You shoot d6 times, let's say you hit 5 times and ended up with 4 wounds. Each wound could be transferred to the drone unit; in that case instead of d3 damage it would be 1 mortal wound for each wound you transferred. If you were transferring 3 wounds, instead of 3d3 damage on the origiinal target, you'd do 3 mortal wounds on the drone unit

I agree with you, man. I am just trying to understand the logic of the people who say "only one drone absorbs the smite attack" rather than d3 or d6 drones (however many the Smite rolls).

The logic is, smite isn't an attack, so ineligible to be savior protocoled at all. The psyker performs a psychic test, successfully manifests, the nearest enemy unit takes mortal wounds. It's never defined as an attack, like summary execution is never defined as an attack, like gets hot is never defined as an attack, like nova reactor is never defined as an attack. Unlike how most sniper weapons/railguns get to cause mortal wounds as the result of an attack. Its a special rule that results in mortal wounds w/o an attack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:
It seems they're reading "the attack" when it says "the wound" , perhaps? I would think that it saying "the wound" should be enough of an indicator that something's wrong if you're trying to convert more than one wound into one mortal wound.

Happens all the time bro, quantum shielding, nice 11 damage, too bad its 1 now, also literal wording: "that Drones unit suffers a mortal wound instead of the normal damage." so normally 2 damage becomes 1 mortal wound

"Attack" has literally nothing to do with savior protocols. Nothing in the rule says it absorbs an attack. the word is used in the rule in a way that has no effect on what the rule does. Stop reading that much into it.

The rule makes a drone absorb the wound. A wound is not damage. A wound is what happens when an opponent hits and then beats the strength vs toughness rule.

After all that THEN you activate savior protocols to try and negate that WOUND with a drone. If you pass, great! If you fail..the opponent then shows you the damage going into that drone.

Mortal wounds! WOUNDS. PLURAL. Sure you could take them and have one drone tank them, but you have to make every save (At least I believe drones have that weird 5+ FNP or something by the FAQ). If any wound is not passed the drone will take damage. Mortal wounds are each separate wounds and are resolved separately as such. So if a drone doesn't pass it's fnp, it dies and the wounds go toward their original target or carry on to other drones if that is what you want to do.

It's extremely clear how all these different rules work, the book actually defines what a wound is, how mortal wounds work, how damage works, and the FAQ/indexes show how Savior Protocols work. How is this an issue?

 pumaman1 wrote:
If your make an attack with a heavy 3d6 s8 ap-4, you sitll have 1 attack that can be summed into 1 drone with 1 mortal wound. if you have 2 models/ guns shooting heavy 3d6 s8 ap-4 attacks, then you will need 2 drones

Let's say you have a 3d6 shot weapon, and you roll 10 total. That's 10 attacks. If 3 drones absorb 3 of those hits, there's still 7 remaining.

Under 'Weapon types' which comes after the Shooting rules, we are given an example. "Heavy 3" weapons make 3 attacks. They specifically say 3 "attacks." If drones absorb one attack, there are still 2 remaining, from one model's Heavy 3 weapon. Assault 1 weapons make 1 attack. This is explicitly given to us as information. 3d6 shots? 3d6 attacks.

Savior protocols can't treat smite as a normal attack by the RAW, as smite is not a normal attack.

Normal attacks that cause a wound do damage. All of the damage is applied at once to the model which suffers the wound, on a failed save of course.

A attack that causes mortal wounds gives no saves, and the damage is a pool that is applied one at a time to the unit, resulting in all of the damage not being applied to a single model but rather to the unit one point at a time. This is inferred from the rules as written and clarifies in the FAQ to be the case.

As such if a model suffers a wound that does d6 damage, a drone with saviour protocols can intercept the wound and convert it to 1 mortal wound. This would have to happen before the damage is rolled because at that point the drone can not intercept damage, but wounds.

If a unit suffers 3 mortal wounds as they are applied one at a time the unit, and not applied to a model, the first one would kill a drone leaving 2 more mortal wounds.

From the FAQ drones don't intercept hits, they intercept successful wounds. An attack that hits and does d6 damage is one wound that becomes d6 damage. An attack that hits and does 3 mortal wounds are three separate wounds that do 1 damage each.

I would actually argue that smite is a psychic attack. It's just an attack that it's "hit" is the test itself and it deals mortal wounds. It's like any other attack that would deal purely mortal wounds instead of needing to roll dice to wound.

So basically smite is a 5+ on two dice to hit, auto wounding, and 1 damage attack.

Sure this isn't explicitly stated, but it's how it's described in the rules. I would therefore say it's fine to have a drone intercept the wound..even though it really makes no sense fluff wise to let a drone intercept spooky warp psychic magic. Or just go by the other rule GW established: If you can't agree, roll a die to decide if it works for drones or doesn't.

I believe drones can intercept the wounds, but not all of them at once - just one wound per drone.

Also, this makes sense to me because smite is just 'mind bullets' and not really magic in the strictest sense (like Dominate or Gaze of the Emperor). This is why almost anyone can use it - it's an abstraction of the psyker's ability to telekinetically throw rocks / shoot lightning / mind daggers / whatever

 mmzero252 wrote:
"Attack" has literally nothing to do with savior protocols. Nothing in the rule says it absorbs an attack. the word is used in the rule in a way that has no effect on what the rule does. Stop reading that much into it.

The rule makes a drone absorb the wound. A wound is not damage. A wound is what happens when an opponent hits and then beats the strength vs toughness rule.

After all that THEN you activate savior protocols to try and negate that WOUND with a drone. If you pass, great! If you fail..the opponent then shows you the damage going into that drone.

Mortal wounds! WOUNDS. PLURAL. Sure you could take them and have one drone tank them, but you have to make every save (At least I believe drones have that weird 5+ FNP or something by the FAQ). If any wound is not passed the drone will take damage. Mortal wounds are each separate wounds and are resolved separately as such. So if a drone doesn't pass it's fnp, it dies and the wounds go toward their original target or carry on to other drones if that is what you want to do.

It's extremely clear how all these different rules work, the book actually defines what a wound is, how mortal wounds work, how damage works, and the FAQ/indexes show how Savior Protocols work. How is this an issue?

HA, attack has nothing to do with it: Saviour Protocols: If a <Sept> Drones unit is within 3" of a friendly <Sept> Infantry or <Sept> Battlesuit unit when an enemy attack successfully wounds it, you can allocate that wound to the Drones unit instead of the target. If you do, that Drones unit suffers a mortal wound instead of the normal damage.

And thank you Blaktoof: From the FAQ drones don't intercept hits, they intercept successful wounds. An attack that hits and does d6 damage is one wound that becomes d6 damage. An attack that hits and does 3 mortal wounds are three separate wounds that do 1 damage each.

"Let's say you have a 3d6 shot weapon, and you roll 10 total. That's 10 attacks. If 3 drones absorb 3 of those hits, there's still 7 remaining. " a 3d6 shot weapon is still only firing once, with 1 attack, its profile states the 1 attack gets to roll 3d6 dice for "to hits" and then roll to wound. It isn't 3d6 attacks, its 1 attack. if i swing at you once with a sword with 1 balde or 11 blades, i am making 1 attack, not 11.

IF drones could intercept smite, which i am in the camp of they cannot at all, then i can see 1 drone per mortal wound. But since i contest currently in 8th psychic powers are not defined as attacks (like they were with 7th and 6th at least for offensive powers i npart by the weapon profile, make a shooting attack etc) that it ultimately is moot because drones cant detect or stop mind bullets



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I believe drones can intercept the wounds, but not all of them at once - just one wound per drone.

Also, this makes sense to me because smite is just 'mind bullets' and not really magic in the strictest sense (like Dominate or Gaze of the Emperor). This is why almost anyone can use it - it's an abstraction of the psyker's ability to telekinetically throw rocks / shoot lightning / mind daggers / whatever

I envisioned being an arcane application of force to the inner squishy organs/vital component, a dagger is easily defeated by power armor, but there are no saves. lighting a warpfire on your insides

You say ha..but I'm still right. It's only there to signify that you can't save against things like Nova Reactor.

I told you where to find it in the rules, but I'll tell you again. Under "weapon types" after the Shooting rules, we are explicitly told that a Heavy 3 weapon makes 3 attacks.

Therefore, a 3d6 weapon is making 3d6 attacks. This is very clear.

 pumaman1 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I believe drones can intercept the wounds, but not all of them at once - just one wound per drone.

Also, this makes sense to me because smite is just 'mind bullets' and not really magic in the strictest sense (like Dominate or Gaze of the Emperor). This is why almost anyone can use it - it's an abstraction of the psyker's ability to telekinetically throw rocks / shoot lightning / mind daggers / whatever

I envisioned being an arcane application of force to the inner squishy organs/vital component, a dagger is easily defeated by power armor, but there are no saves. lighting a warpfire on your insides

That's just a matter of interpretation. A mind-dagger could slice through power-armour because power armour exists in the physical realm and the dagger exists half-in-the-warp, half not. A drone could, say, interpose itself, and disrupt or destroy the part that is in reality anyways (though it suffers for it!).

Arguably, AI even have souls (which is why Imperial AI can be possessed) which means they'd just be throwing their 'soul' under the bus to save the 'soul' of their commander.

Smite still needs Line of Sight so obviously it somehow 'travels' to the target on a trajectory, rather than just simply affecting it.

All TAU AI are programmed with saviour protocols, and James Brown protocols.

So yes, they have Soul to spare

This was resolved in the second reply to this thread. (just seeing if anyone cares)

 Overheal wrote:
"cannot lookout sir a gets hot, its not an attack."

Actually, RAW a Crisis Bodyguard could eat the Gets Hot from a self-inflicted wound by any <SEPT> CHARACTER

Unless the Lookout, Sir rule you're reading on someone else's datacard says "enemy" attacks, it can do this as well.

Oh speaking of this: Longstrike's Gunship is a CHARACTER. So if you were so inclined, Crisis Bodyguards could take the mortal wound suffered from an Ion Cannon overcharge RAW.

People are fickle and don't want their precious models killed so they will argue every tiny little thing just to keep them alive. Just go look at the thread about not being able to charge a hover tank because you can't get a base within 1" of the hull...

 mmzero252 wrote:
People are fickle and don't want their precious models killed so they will argue every tiny little thing just to keep them alive. Just go look at the thread about not being able to charge a hover tank because you can't get a base within 1" of the hull...

i guess reading is hard? because i was saying you cannot save smite with drones at all.

 pumaman1 wrote:

 mmzero252 wrote:
People are fickle and don't want their precious models killed so they will argue every tiny little thing just to keep them alive. Just go look at the thread about not being able to charge a hover tank because you can't get a base within 1" of the hull...

i guess reading is hard? because i was saying you cannot save smite with drones at all.

By arguing (poorly?) that Smite is not an enemy attack.

Smite is definitely an attack. It's not a hug or a bunch of roses. It's designed to kill.

Anyway: I think we've firmly established how Savior Protocols work, and now this has become a question of how Smite is defined - which can probably go in its own thread of discussion.

 Overheal wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

 mmzero252 wrote:
People are fickle and don't want their precious models killed so they will argue every tiny little thing just to keep them alive. Just go look at the thread about not being able to charge a hover tank because you can't get a base within 1" of the hull...

i guess reading is hard? because i was saying you cannot save smite with drones at all.

By arguing (poorly?) that Smite is not an enemy attack.

I think he fails to see the irony. His failure to read and comprehend my statement and then stating that I failed to read his.

 mmzero252 wrote:

 Overheal wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

 mmzero252 wrote:
People are fickle and don't want their precious models killed so they will argue every tiny little thing just to keep them alive. Just go look at the thread about not being able to charge a hover tank because you can't get a base within 1" of the hull...

i guess reading is hard? because i was saying you cannot save smite with drones at all.

By arguing (poorly?) that Smite is not an enemy attack.

I think he fails to see the irony. His failure to read and comprehend my statement and then stating that I failed to read his.

Your statement that people try really hard to save their models, and i am arguing you cannot save the models v smite, per thread title. So.. no. no irony, you're just being an ass.

Smite is not an attack by any definition of the rule book. In a permissive rule set, it is not until a rule defines it is. You have failed to point out ANYWHERE in the rules that psychic powers are attacks, that it's defined as an attack, or that psykers can attack with their psychic powers. It causes wounds, that's neat, so do other not-attack features of the game. The burden of RAW in permissive rule set is that smite defines itself as an attack, or that psychic powers define themselves as an attack. if it isn't an attack, then it cannot be an attack. Didn't think i would have to write that down for you.

ME: Quick Q: Is Smite an *attack* yea or nay

Warhammer 40,000: Well, it's not a friendly diplomatic gesture?!

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1879869732333657&id=1575682476085719

 Overheal wrote:
ME: Quick Q: Is Smite an *attack* yea or nay

Warhammer 40,000: Well, it's not a friendly diplomatic gesture?!

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1879869732333657&id=1575682476085719

It's a successful manifestation of a psychic power. That's how the rule book defines it. It also defines what was formerly known as blessings and maledictions that way.

Oh gee, is an offensive ability that is directed at you by an enemy an attack? Sorry..I wasn't sure that would need to be pointed out to anybody. Please get off your high horse and make a new thread to argue what an attack is. This thread has been answered repeatedly and is done now.

 pumaman1 wrote:

 Overheal wrote:
ME: Quick Q: Is Smite an *attack* yea or nay

Warhammer 40,000: Well, it's not a friendly diplomatic gesture?!

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1879869732333657&id=1575682476085719

It's a successful manifestation of a psychic power. That's how the rule book defines it. It also defines what was formerly known as blessings and maledictions that way.

If you're bringing 7th into this, Smite was a witchfire power and rolled to hit.

 Overheal wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

 mmzero252 wrote:
People are fickle and don't want their precious models killed so they will argue every tiny little thing just to keep them alive. Just go look at the thread about not being able to charge a hover tank because you can't get a base within 1" of the hull...

i guess reading is hard? because i was saying you cannot save smite with drones at all.

By arguing (poorly?) that Smite is not an enemy attack.

I mean, I can follow the idea, but I didn't even see it being argued other than "the rules don't explicitly call it out as an attack." The argument seemed to be more about how many attacks are made by a given model with a given weapon, which had nothing to do with either the saviour protocols question or the user's own assertion that Smite isn't an attack (and an argument easily refuted).

Let's also remember that Smite targets the nearest visible enemy unit (uhm, like an attack might) and in competitive situations those drones should regularly be screening.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Your first two lines contradict themselves. Is a single Flamer d6 attacks, or are 5 flamers 5 attacks? Or 5d6 attacks?

And you might as well add up the lascannon damage. Against one of the tanks in my 3-baneblade company, most people roll 4 dice, then 4 dice, then I roll my saves, then they roll 4d6 damage, and my baneblade is hurt (again for brevity I am assuming every roll comes out in the opponent's favor).

4d6 damage is anywhere from 4-24 damage, meaning that it may very well not be enough to kill even an SM captain or a Sororitas canoness, or it could be enough to one-shot a Knight. If they're all firing at the same unit, you might as well roll them together (unless your opponent interrupts your shooting process with Savior Protocols or whathaveyou).

My err was typing too fast

"A Flamer is d6 Attacks, 5 separate Flamers is 5d6 separate Attacks."

but Listen, there are a LOT of minor problems with fast rolling the damage die from multiple damage attacks that I'm not going to get into...
Point is... 4 Lascannons is 4 Different Attacks.
4 Heavy Bolters, is 12 Different Attacks.
5 Flamers is 5d6 Different Attacks

Lance845 wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
Since there does exist weapons that deal 2d6 damage.

Everything you say here is true except that there are weapons that deal 2d6 dmg. Dire Bio Cannons on a Heirophant are an example.

??

pumaman1 wrote:since every model has split fire, and every gun really has split fire, every gun that fires is an attack. That gun that fires can be combined with other guns that fire for multiple attacks from 1 multi-model unit. But the attack is either assault 3 (3 chances to hit) or d6 (d6 chances to hit) its still 1 attack from 1 gun.
4 lascanons from 4 devastators shoot is 4 attacks, 1 centurion shooting 2 las cannons and 2 heavy bolters is 4 attacks. the heavy bolters shooting 3 times each is sitll 1 attack, becusae when the gun attacks it gets 3 chances to "hit", it cannot chose to shoot more or less.

No, Assault 3 isn't 3 chances to Hit
3 Chances to hit implies that it is "Assault 1 with 2 rerolls"

Assault 3 means 3 Attacks.
Heavy 6 means 6 Attacks.

This is even in the book.

My bad. I must have brain farted. I was sure I read it as "there does not exist" or some gak.

 Talamare wrote:
but Listen, there are a LOT of minor problems with fast rolling the damage die from multiple damage attacks that I'm not going to get into...

The rules don't permit fast rolling damage anyway. You're only permitted to fast roll the 'To Hit' and 'To Wound' rolls, and they must have the same Ballistic/Weapon skill, Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit. Everything else is done one at a time.

Wounds are wounds. damage is calculated after saves have been taken and failed for each wound.

Normal wounds and mortal wounds are allocated by the owning player. Following the rules for that.

Damage follows the failed save rolls, to a model that has failed the wound save.

I like this 'not an attack' argument, if I wasn't of the mindset that this Edition is the 'dumbed down' version I would even consider running it up the flag pole and saluting it.

Previous editions of this game had complicated rule interactions that could hinge on something as minor as 'is this really an attack,' with a prime example being found in the Psychic Powers at that. We all remember Game Workshop creating a specific Rule informing us that certain psychic powers where 'shooting attacks,' and then would forget to provide us with profiles for certain powers... oh the joy that caused. With that in mind, it is very easy to conclude they might be wanting to avoid the entire problem by simply having Psychic Powers be their own self-contained bundles and not attacks per-say.

The reason I don't buy it:
It requires detail rule knowledge of previous games to come to the 'not an attack' conclusion, all just to make a minor ability not function at all, and the writers want this to be a simpler system....

It seems that the best use of Savior Protocol is to run MSU Drones with as many single Drones as possible, which allows single model Drone units to take entire mortal wound damage pools with no transfer to other units.

We can already do that without Savior Protocol.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
It seems that the best use of Savior Protocol is to run MSU Drones with as many single Drones as possible, which allows single model Drone units to take entire mortal wound damage pools with no transfer to other units.

We can already do that without Savior Protocol.

SJ

How would 1 drone take on entire mortal wound damage pools? It can only be allocated 1 wound (whether a mortal wound, or a wound that does 6 damage, etc)

 Overheal wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
It seems that the best use of Savior Protocol is to run MSU Drones with as many single Drones as possible, which allows single model Drone units to take entire mortal wound damage pools with no transfer to other units.

We can already do that without Savior Protocol.

SJ

How would 1 drone take on entire mortal wound damage pools? It can only be allocated 1 wound (whether a mortal wound, or a wound that does 6 damage, etc)

If its the closest unit, it's the unit that gets hit. And if there is just one, only one dies regardless of how many mortal wounds it received.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Overheal wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
It seems that the best use of Savior Protocol is to run MSU Drones with as many single Drones as possible, which allows single model Drone units to take entire mortal wound damage pools with no transfer to other units.

We can already do that without Savior Protocol.

SJ

How would 1 drone take on entire mortal wound damage pools? It can only be allocated 1 wound (whether a mortal wound, or a wound that does 6 damage, etc)

If its the closest unit, it's the unit that gets hit. And if there is just one, only one dies regardless of how many mortal wounds it received.

SJ

you resolve savior protocol per wound suffered....

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Overheal wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
It seems that the best use of Savior Protocol is to run MSU Drones with as many single Drones as possible, which allows single model Drone units to take entire mortal wound damage pools with no transfer to other units.

We can already do that without Savior Protocol.

SJ

How would 1 drone take on entire mortal wound damage pools? It can only be allocated 1 wound (whether a mortal wound, or a wound that does 6 damage, etc)

If its the closest unit, it's the unit that gets hit. And if there is just one, only one dies regardless of how many mortal wounds it received.

SJ

You're saying if drones are the closest unit.

Sure?

That's a legitimate way to play drones but it has nothing to do with SP. Seems like your suggestion belongs in a tactics forum.

 Overheal wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Overheal wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
It seems that the best use of Savior Protocol is to run MSU Drones with as many single Drones as possible, which allows single model Drone units to take entire mortal wound damage pools with no transfer to other units.

We can already do that without Savior Protocol.

SJ

How would 1 drone take on entire mortal wound damage pools? It can only be allocated 1 wound (whether a mortal wound, or a wound that does 6 damage, etc)

If its the closest unit, it's the unit that gets hit. And if there is just one, only one dies regardless of how many mortal wounds it received.

SJ

You're saying if drones are the closest unit.

Sure?

That's a legitimate way to play drones but it has nothing to do with SP. Seems like your suggestion belongs in a tactics forum.

It's a reading comprehension issue. I underlined the part two of you have missed.

SJ

Eh?

I know it is off topic already, but how is pointing out that any single Model unit close to the Psyker would tank more Wounds then Savior Protocol relevant?
Even if we where to discuss Tactics over rule-interactions, AKA how poorly Bodyguards function, it is the opponent who positions the Smiting Model and can flank around that single Bodyguard easily....

Again, there seems to be a reading comprehension issue on the thread. As Savior Protocol is worded, a Smite can kill off a unit a of Drones if you Savior with a unit of more than one Drone. However, if you just play competently, you might lose 1-2 Drones instead simply through placement rather than Savior Protocol. Why that is such a difficult concept to grasp is beyond me. Simply take two Drones with your Character, and keep those Drones in front. It's not rocket science.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Again, there seems to be a reading comprehension issue on the thread. As Savior Protocol is worded, a Smite can kill off a unit a of Drones if you Savior with a unit of more than one Drone. However, if you just play competently, you might lose 1-2 Drones instead simply through placement rather than Savior Protocol. Why that is such a difficult concept to grasp is beyond me. Simply take two Drones with your Character, and keep those Drones in front. It's not rocket science.

SJ

because the one with the reading comprehension issue is you

It is going to be my opponent who, ultimately, decides which direction that Model is approaching from and there are many ways that opponent could manipulate positioning too!
So advice saying 'position your Models better' is not only irreverent to discussing the Rules in question, but isn't even accurate advice to give on the Tabletop in this situation....

All I did was point out that the current issue with how Savior Protocol interacts with multiple mortal wounds can be resolved via MSU Drones. That it has taken several posts to clarify is mind boggling.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
All I did was point out that the current issue with how Savior Protocol interacts with multiple mortal wounds can be resolved via MSU Drones. That it has taken several posts to clarify is mind boggling.

SJ

nothing is keeping mortal wounds from going into different drone units. You are the one who is mistaken

These are still tactical discussions, if you want to continue it shouldn't you move to another forum?

3 mortal wounds , will equal 3 dead drones. Period. A d6 wound allocated from say a Riptide to a drone, would converted to a mortal wound and one dead drone. No need for the damage roll since the wound was passed off.

mortal wounds are 1 damage each, no saves allowed. the d3 , d6 part is just to say to the dying player how many wounds you will apply to a unit , 1 at a time till there are none left.

Damage and wounds are separate.



Hit , wound, apply damage on failed save.

I think this topic has been beaten far enough to death!