So as the title implies, what are the best armies of this edition? What are the worst? Which ones benefitted the most? Which ones really got the bad end of the deal?
So far I've only played 2 non-competitive games. My first game was Imperial Guard vs Orcs at 35 power. The match was really close, although, in the end, my opponent won, possibly because I'm still not sure how 8th edition has changed up things.
My second game was Necrons vs Imperial Fists, also at 35 power. I played Necrons and completely tabled the Fists. The only losses I took were some warriors in a squad.
As far as I can tell, the armies seem to be much more balanced than before, but some armies have more advantages.
Orks took a big hit. The loss of blast and templates means that 5+ ballistic skill really hurts. Plus no more ard boys and special rules for bikers. And red ones don't go faster.
Looks like the fw heretics list got hurt pretty bad with random ld and low bs.
Personally, I think everyone's taken a hit until they get their Codex.
Don't get me started on how it's kinda scummy that Marines got their Codex during a massive campaign event. And I play Marines.
We'll know who really took the hits as soon as the other books drop. So far, my only complaint is that a Crusader Squad is genuinely nothing more than a big blob of bolters and such, and has no real purpose any more.
By all accounts, Orks got hit hard this release. Most of their units are either equal to or worse than they used to be, while most of their unit points-costs have increased.
Orks currently have one competitive build - Field as many boyz as you can fit on the table, and add Ghazghkull and a couple weirdboys and maybe a big mek for a forcefield if you want. 150+ boyz plus a handful of characters. Not a lot of fun to play as, but it might win a match.
You need to footslog them too, 'cos all the vehicles are overcosted. It's a shame.
Though I say that, I still love my orks. I still play deff dreads and killa kans, even though they have never actually been very good. In fact, I think they're some of the only units that improved (slightly) in 8th edition, but they're still far too expensive for how flimsy they are on the table.
Necrons I've heard have also dropped a bit in their competitiveness, though I haven't experienced it myself so ymmv.
As far as improved, Dark Eldar seem to be in a good place right now. They are still glass cannons, but even more so, and they have a lot of unit combinations that can be competitive. Eldar in general is still good, but they were before too so it's not really an "improvement".
Also, Imperial Guard seem to be the top of the heap right now, but whether that's only because of the conscript spam shenanigans... I wouldn't like to say.
Sisters benefited massively. A price decrease almost across the board, the vanguard move of dominions, super-cheap storm bolters-- more htan makes up for flamers being kinda meh on sisters now.
CSM are the best they've been in years. They still can't compete with most hyper competitive builds (the codex might for now, but probably won't last) but they are at least on par for most friendly games, which is a big plus.
H&R switched with IG, now IG is a power army and R&H is the outright weaker version.
Sandro17 wrote: Necrons cannot win unless the dice gods are in their favor.
Dude, come on- the C'tan have some goofy rules. I can't say my memory is great, but the last I remember it was something like 'Roll a D6, if it lands on the table just throw five of your opponent's models in the trash and win'.
Sandro17 wrote: Necrons cannot win unless the dice gods are in their favor.
Not true. I won my 2nd battle (75pl) with a hard Nec list vs Raven guard. Tactics. Know your list, use it to do tactics.
im currently undeafeated locally with my crons, due to either luck or just outplaying my opponents. But competitively, we are terrible. We lost alot of mobility, durability and offensive punch in the index. The codex will hopefully address that, but currently if you put us up against an equally skilled player you're hoping the dice are favourable to you to win.
I actually agree that Necrons aren't as bad as people say they are. From my own admittedly limited experience, they can work well at least in some settings.
Guard is mainly just conscript spam that lets them work so well?
deltaKshatriya wrote: I actually agree that Necrons aren't as bad as people say they are. From my own admittedly limited experience, they can work well at least in some settings.
Guard is mainly just conscript spam that lets them work so well?
That's not it entirely, though it's a big part. Generally guard is very points effective across the board. Conscripts, scions, Taurox prime, ratlings, commissars, and a number of big guns are all cheaper than comparative options in other armies. That's why it's one of the only codices I expect to see more point increases than drops, in stark opposition to what we saw with CSM/SM.
Wow, I really disagree with the above posters. Orcs are my favorite and largest army (of 4). I think the orks got several buffs this edition. I will list a few at the end.
AstraMil IMO got the biggest buff with the addition of high wound tanjs that get saves with high damage guns to boot. Cheap bubbke wrap and some of the most punishing fliers in the game.
Loss of spawning/conjuring really hurt nids and daemons but the latter makes up for it with smite o rama and Magnus.
Primaris marines seem to be good and try finding a marine player NOT using guilliman. Wowsers hes good.
Imperium has multiple benies just having that faction keyword. Fluffy... sort of.
Crons got something abd gave something. Gauss isnt as cool as it used to be. Heck a lasgun or grot blaster is gauss now. The new RPs are kinda brutal to play against.
Ultimately, I think the biggest kick in the nuts is the Tau. The suits are soooo over costed IMO. Riptide is like a "lose button" now. I dont mind the nova so much, it hurts a lot more to use it. Losing buff mander too... fricking heck.... buuuummmmer. Kayun abd Montka is pretty good though admittedly.
Ok back to orks. They arent top tear but...
- First turn charges is pretty friggin amazing.
- Storm Boyz are soooo cheap now. So fast. So good in obj games.
- DaJump... nuff said there.
- Mob rule... finally back to reasonableness
- Ere we go was BRUTAL until they FAQd it. I made almost every charge.
- Morkanaut w KFF is so awesome as mobile LOS blocking, bullet magnet cover giver compared to it old rules. Soooo buffed.
- Ghaz... duh... badass buff
- Combined with Waaagh banner and that other Weirdboy Power! Major synergy.
- Shootas are Bababababaaaaack.
- DeffRollas still not as good as 5th, but still better.
- Kans arent just suicide bombers in your own line going off like popcorn anymore.
- Have you not seen the rules for the gargantuan Squiggoth?! Holy hell..
- Meka Dread can first turn charge with "Megacharga" MVP...
- Actually no... MVP belongs to the lowly grot that can now wound Imperial knights and are so good ar absorbing overwatch before the boys deliver the good good. Grots have armor now and a buffing rule that is hilarious.
- stompa.... ouch. The points... that nunber just was pulled from someones anus. Ridiculously overcosted.
Ok. Feel free to add salt to taste.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and the Truk? The trukks the live now? Are you kidding me? So much better than previous. Would like tge to be faster than a battlewagon though. Sup widat?
Nids gained the most. They were bottom of the barrel at the end of 7th and 8th has made basically every unit usable in some kind of a list and many units full blown great.
Right now nids biggest problem is figuring out the most effective way to trim back and focus their units because everything looks so good we want to take it all.
Eldar have certainly taken a hit although given their power in 7th, I can see why a change was needed. The problem is that they nerfed the high power units like the Wraithknight and Jetbikes but did nothing to bring the weak units (of which there are many) up to scratch. Expect to see a lot of Wraithguard, Dark Reapers and Wave Serpent spam until the new codex drop.
Space Wolves seem to have done better than expected. While TWC got a much needed reduction, the basics are pretty strong. Grey Hunters can now double-tap their bolters and charge with twice as many attacks as Tactical Marines and can double down on special weapons for just 1 extra point. Blood Claws now hit on a 3+ in combat which is good with all those attacks. Long Fangs can reroll 1s on their shooting. While slightly more expensive than Devastators, that ability is great since most other armies require an HQ character to babysit the squad to give them same effect.
Blood Angels suffered badly which is quite an achievement considering they were one of the weaker armies in 7th edition. The Angelus bolter and encarmine weapons are massively over-priced meaning it is cheaper and more powerful to run Sanguinary guard with plasma pistol and power fist than it is with their signature wargear. Furioso and DC Dreads both cost far more than Ironclads for no obvious benefit and can no longer ride in pods meaning they either need a ride in an expensive Storm Raven or have to walk to the enemy. Death Company are supposed to be our blender unit but are far weaker than Berserkers who cost the same points but hit much harder and can attack twice per turn. Dante is the weakest and also most expensive Chapter Master having no special rules to reresent his 1500 years of service to the Imperium. Sanguinary Priests and Company Veterans with Jump Packs are about the only things we have going for us at the moment. :(
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Tau have taken a big hit this edition, with almost all of their battlesuits being overcosted or underwhelming. Only Commander spam is competitive.
Yep. It's tau shooting in general being underwhelming almost across the board barring a few units and even then commander spam is half of your list then sprinkle in strikers and pathfinders and your done. That's all that is viable right now.
Orks currently have one competitive build - Field as many boyz as you can fit on the table, and add Ghazghkull and a couple weirdboys and maybe a big mek for a forcefield if you want. 150+ boyz plus a handful of characters. Not a lot of fun to play as, but it might win a match.
You need to footslog them too, 'cos all the vehicles are overcosted. It's a shame.
This is true, Orks seems to have only one competitive build, but this is still one more competetive build than in 7th edition. Orks has been improved a LOT in 8th, but it still struggles in places. The new rules for cover hit Orks really hard.
Guard is mainly just conscript spam that lets them work so well?
Guards are good across the board with the exception of most Leman russ variants. They have good horde infantry, good specialist infantry, amazing flyers, decent psykers, outstanding fire support, good T7 vehicles, inexpensive buff characters, and access to the spicy Imperium soup. The Leman russ battle tanks could do with a little buff, though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Best army is Guard flavoured imperium soup. Or just guard.
Most improved armies are: Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Chaos Space Marines and Harlequins
Most nerfed armies are: Craftworld Eldar and Necrons
Primaris marines seem to be good and try finding a marine player NOT using guilliman. Wowsers hes good.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and the Truk? The trukks the live now? Are you kidding me? So much better than previous. Would like tge to be faster than a battlewagon though. Sup widat?
As a Minotaur Chapter player, I cannot bring myself to use Guilliman. It would pretty much be blasphemy to even think about being involved with anything Ultramarine.
ETC 17 was dominated by stormravens (before Foot on the Ground errata) and marines with razorbacks and heavy support. Demons with princes and brimstones, as well as imperial guard with scions, mortars and psykers were also popular.
Tyranids with a mix of cult and hivefleet snuck under the radar.
I'd echo what a couple of people have said so far about codexes. There are clearly some units that aren't good enough, or are too good, but it looks like GW is trying to fix that when the books come out.
It looks like the SM, chaos and GK codexes will all produce pretty well-balanced and powerful armies. The indexes are full of weirdness. This degree of testing seems like a really good way of rebalancing the game.
Let's hope we see more of the same with the index astartes books. I think there's a bit of impalance in the new SM stuff (the redemptor isn't great and some options, like the heavy hellblasters, are pretty bad).
malcontent999 wrote: Orks took a big hit. The loss of blast and templates means that 5+ ballistic skill really hurts. Plus no more ard boys and special rules for bikers. And red ones don't go faster.
Looks like the fw heretics list got hurt pretty bad with random ld and low bs.
95% of R&H players were just IG players using the list that was the most powerful, and now they've switched back to Guard and still have a strong list with the same models and playstyle.
it's like all those poor, dedicated White Scars and Iron Hands marine players who happened to crop up in 7th when Gladius was powerful.
(disclaimer, this does not exclude the existence of dedicated players of these factions, merely pointing out that there are many factions that have nearly disappeared overnight because a large number of their playerbase were just competitive army-hoppers.)
I second the SoB being boosted up big time in 8th. Celestine is a monster, Dominions are excellent, Immolators are excellent, basic battle squads are cheap and decent, the Canoness is cheap and fairly good, Retributors are better than average, and with Faith and 4 Inferno pistols Seraphim are so amazing they teeter on the edge of being OP.
Nice to see IG infantry being viable again for the first time in about 3 editions.
DE seem to have improved in terms of power-level, but their already-shallow flavour has been cut to the bone.
Necrons have lost options every edition and this one was no exception. RPs are significantly weaker, though they're more fluffy at least. However, the lack of RPs on characters rather ruins that particular fluff. Also, a lot of their stuff seems overpriced now and I think some of their Gauss weapons need looking at.
Corsairs have been killed off entirely (thanks, GW, I'm glad I spent ages converting that Winged Corsair Prince), so I'd lean towards saying they're the worst off.
I think Dark Eldar came out pretty shiny, all things considered. Harlequins are absolute beasts right now. Corsairs, on the other hand, got gutted. Of course, all these could change in the near future.
I'm a little unsure about tanks for IG still. Punishers are still really good, especially at horde control. I haven't tried any other variants yet. Demolishers look to be pretty good. Battle tanks are average. Vanquishers are only good if the dice roll in your favor.
I've just constantly heard that conscript spam is the best way to go for IG. Haven't heard any other strategies so far.
I think the problem with this is its not a straight line within armies it's also about how you choose to play it.
AM - Infantry massive boost from the change to armour saves and plasma. Elite vehicle's good but their are better in an all imperium list eg dunecrawlers baal predator's
SM - Weakened by armour changes. Guilliman smurf elite vehicles really strong till chapter approved is released but reliant on going first needs to wipe your opponent countered by massed infantry which it can't wipe. Salamander tacs with Las cannons really effective AV possible strong msu don't run primaris.
BA nice as a sideboard DC is strong but limted by only one lemartes, baal predators are a great counter to infantry spam lists but in most circumstances your better off with SM
SW/DA uninspireing - no wolfstar need codexs
GK either dread knight spam list or single undersized unit deepstrikeing justicar as a sideboard choice. Same problems they always had nice but too expensive compared to SM
ORK really strong but it's all about the hoard don't like the hoard don't play orks
Skittarii infantry are more survivable but the loss of armywide scout and crusader on skittarii means they are relegated to bubble wrap which conscripts do better for me it destroys the theme of the skittarii only army. In addition the HQ are insanely expensive and you must take them. Dunecrawlers are houses though combined with admech
Admech naf apart from kastellan robot spam
Ik weaker than before but still strong like guilliman spam needs to go first to win however it is going to suffer heavily from chapter approved change to how first turn is selected as currently knights get first turn due to fewer drops. Also admech/Ik army no longer exists properly to the detriment of both.
Sister of battle cheaper but maybe not cheap enough definitely better though
Assassins great choices definitely better
Talons - custodes pretty but pants still pretty but pants. Sisters was neich role but viable if underutilised in practice now pants
Fortifications overpriced except maybe vsg
Tau the problem tau face are the players. They fuss endlessly that their army has been nurfed and the suits don't work because they want to be shooty. Newsflash tau don't shoot anymore sure commanders are ok but you want to run a shoot list join the imperium it's more effective. However a hoard spam list of kroot, kroot hounds, vespids and krootshapers guided by etherals is nuts but no one owns the models because they were bad last time. (Note yes 10 kroot will just get shot 18+ units of kroot at 180 models don't go down as easy)
Chaos loss of daemon summoning made then boring just another army without its distinctive way of working. Not saying ineffective. Cos horrors are.... horribly good but why would you not use horrors well unless you like the art in which case tactics arnt your thing
Csm most of the problems that sm have with no giulliman
Tyranids like orks on the rise due to hoards
Ynnarii weakened but jury's out on eldar/DE
Anyone who ran multI combination army's eg taudar or sm/ cd gw is giving you the finger
Inquisition all your units are bad -wait no you have 1 good unit with 3w ha ha we tricked you and you lose half your weapons most of your equipment your monkeys dont work and your double the guard in pts. Basically gw really hate the inquisition
Orks became a mid tier army because their melee seems to have improved with extra choppa attacks
umm they always had three attacks because 2 base and 1 for double ccw weapon. So that didnt change. What did change is being able to run and charge every turn (as long as warboss is nearby) and becoming str 4 base (which was LONG overdue), and the increase to weapon skill (90% of the time before 8th we would hit on 4+...now its 3+). Combine with mob rule actually benefiting them instead of hurting them.
Thats why boyz are great. Almost every army special rule, and 8th edition change directly benefited boyz the most. (waaagghh! banner, ere we go rule to re roll charges..)
My two cents for the armies im aquainted with so far.
Eldar have nothing real special so far unless you play hemlocks and ynnari. Our weapons are over priced compared to those of other armies and come one flimsier platforms. Wraithgaurd/blades were way boosted. Wraithlords are still in that strange spot, looks good on paper but bad when used. Elites are still the same, made to do one job each. Troops are still too short ranged compared to other armies.
Necrons living metal and quantum sheilding are crazy good, tank busters cant scratch them but boltguns can if you have enough shots to throw at it. Warriors just dont die enough when the cryptek and ghost ark are there plus a 24inch -1ap standard weapon is nothing to be ashamed of. Played right and they win the end game.
Tryanids, ive watched our local players nothing but struggle with playing nids in 8th. Termagaunts can only do so much and carnefexs are in the same sticky boat as my wraithlords. Definitely though nids have some synergies on paper but figureing out how to use them looks almost overwhelming.
I wish the codexes would have been released all together though. This stagered release makes no sense.
Orks became a mid tier army because their melee seems to have improved with extra choppa attacks
umm they always had three attacks because 2 base and 1 for double ccw weapon. So that didnt change. What did change is being able to run and charge every turn (as long as warboss is nearby) and becoming str 4 base (which was LONG overdue), and the increase to weapon skill (90% of the time before 8th we would hit on 4+...now its 3+). Combine with mob rule actually benefiting them instead of hurting them.
Thats why boyz are great. Almost every army special rule, and 8th edition change directly benefited boyz the most. (waaagghh! banner, ere we go rule to re roll charges..)
This is how I interpret the Additional Attack(s) with Choppas.
Boss Zagstrukk has 6 attacks. If he uses his choppa for all 6 attacks, he gets 12 attacks because he is fighting with his choppa and gets 1 additional attack with each strike.
Orks became a mid tier army because their melee seems to have improved with extra choppa attacks
umm they always had three attacks because 2 base and 1 for double ccw weapon. So that didnt change. What did change is being able to run and charge every turn (as long as warboss is nearby) and becoming str 4 base (which was LONG overdue), and the increase to weapon skill (90% of the time before 8th we would hit on 4+...now its 3+). Combine with mob rule actually benefiting them instead of hurting them.
Thats why boyz are great. Almost every army special rule, and 8th edition change directly benefited boyz the most. (waaagghh! banner, ere we go rule to re roll charges..)
This is how I interpret the Additional Attack(s) with Choppas.
Boss Zagstrukk has 6 attacks. If he uses his choppa for all 6 attacks, he gets 12 attacks because he is fighting with his choppa and gets 1 additional attack with each strike.
You..."interpret" it wrong then. The exact wording of the rule is "Each time the bearer fights, it may make 1 additional attack with this weapon." Where and how do you get to "1 additional attack WITH EACH STRIKE?"
As a note, when talking competitive, Tau are one of the very best armies out there.
But when considering more casual play, the tau drop in the trash.
Tau have 1 ridiculously strong build basis (commander spam) and not utilizing it makes the tau extremely weak. It's the only faction that has this complete lack of middle ground.
Um, do you know anything about the Tau from a fluff / lore perspective or from editions past? Tau are weak at shooting, weak at CC, and have no psychic phase. Spamming kroot and vespid is our strategy now? Sounds like what every Tau player signed up for!
Orks became a mid tier army because their melee seems to have improved with extra choppa attacks
umm they always had three attacks because 2 base and 1 for double ccw weapon. So that didnt change. What did change is being able to run and charge every turn (as long as warboss is nearby) and becoming str 4 base (which was LONG overdue), and the increase to weapon skill (90% of the time before 8th we would hit on 4+...now its 3+). Combine with mob rule actually benefiting them instead of hurting them.
Thats why boyz are great. Almost every army special rule, and 8th edition change directly benefited boyz the most. (waaagghh! banner, ere we go rule to re roll charges..)
This is how I interpret the Additional Attack(s) with Choppas.
Boss Zagstrukk has 6 attacks. If he uses his choppa for all 6 attacks, he gets 12 attacks because he is fighting with his choppa and gets 1 additional attack with each strike.
You..."interpret" it wrong then. The exact wording of the rule is "Each time the bearer fights, it may make 1 additional attack with this weapon." Where and how do you get to "1 additional attack WITH EACH STRIKE?"
I interpret it as follows
Boss Zagstrukk has 6 attacks. He fights with the choppa 6 times, and gets 1 additional attack with each regular attack. 6 times 2 is 12, thus he gets 12 attacks with the choppa.
U02dah4 wrote: Tau the problem tau face are the players. They fuss endlessly that their army has been nurfed and the suits don't work because they want to be shooty. Newsflash tau don't shoot anymore sure commanders are ok but you want to run a shoot list join the imperium it's more effective. However a hoard spam list of kroot, kroot hounds, vespids and krootshapers guided by etherals is nuts but no one owns the models because they were bad last time. (Note yes 10 kroot will just get shot 18+ units of kroot at 180 models don't go down as easy)
Kroot are BS+4, S3, T3, 6+Save for 6 points
Basic Guardsman are BS+4, S3, T3, 5+Save for 4 points
You're suggesting that Tau players Spam a unit that is worse than a Basic Guardsman...
Kroot are ws3
Conscripts are ws5
I'm suggesting tau players are the problem as they are stuck in shoot mode - as evidenced by a BS comparison on a CC unit- give up on shooting and recognise they are a cc army
Also I'm not saying they are the best CC army but they pretty effective especially with the buffs from the kroot shaper
Also if you pick almost any tau unit you will be able to find an imperium unit that does the same role more cost effectively it's why your better of switching army if you want to sit and shoot
Kroot are BS+4, S3, T3, 6+Save for 6 points
Basic Guardsman are BS+4, S3, T3, 5+Save for 4 points
You're suggesting that Tau players Spam a unit that is worse than a Basic Guardsman...
Basic Guardsman are M6" WS4+BS+4, S3, T3, 5+Save and have S3 guns for 4 points
Kroot are M7" WS3+BS+4, S3, T3, 6+Save, have S4 guns, are S4 in melee and can make a 7" move before the game begins for 6 points
I don't know if the extra stuff is worth paying 2 more points per model, but it seems rather disingenuous to just ignore all the ways in which Kroot exceed guardsmen.
Boss Zagstrukk has 6 attacks. He fights with the choppa 6 times, and gets 1 additional attack with each regular attack. 6 times 2 is 12, thus he gets 12 attacks with the choppa.
That's still wrong. You are willfully interpreting it incorrectly. It has already been posted in regards to how it actually works.
That 1" move and the initial +7m is crucial for closing the gap and once in CC that infantry squad is in trouble. And +1's on shots adds 16% to success vs most infantry.
The other thing to consider is that it's rare to see a vanilla infantry squad mine tend to come in at 56pts so I don't see as a 2pt per model gap I see it as a 0.4 pt per model gap and yes that infantry squad gets a plasma gun but since everything you run has 1w and almost no armour you negate it's value.
Boss Zagstrukk has 6 attacks. He fights with the choppa 6 times, and gets 1 additional attack with each regular attack. 6 times 2 is 12, thus he gets 12 attacks with the choppa.
That's still wrong. You are willfully interpreting it incorrectly. It has already been posted in regards to how it actually works.
Yeah. He fights once, making 6 attacks. Then gets an extra attack when he does that one fight. 7 attacks.
Boss Zagstrukk has 6 attacks. He fights with the choppa 6 times, and gets 1 additional attack with each regular attack. 6 times 2 is 12, thus he gets 12 attacks with the choppa.
That's still wrong. You are willfully interpreting it incorrectly. It has already been posted in regards to how it actually works.
Yeah. He fights once, making 6 attacks. Then gets an extra attack when he does that one fight. 7 attacks.
malcontent999 wrote: Orks took a big hit. The loss of blast and templates means that 5+ ballistic skill really hurts. Plus no more ard boys and special rules for bikers. And red ones don't go faster..
Orks are a good candidate for 'best improved' army of 8th edition...
Um, do you know anything about the Tau from a fluff / lore perspective or from editions past? Tau are weak at shooting, weak at CC, and have no psychic phase. Spamming kroot and vespid is our strategy now? Sounds like what every Tau player signed up for!
I just.... told you how the tau are a top tier competitive army. And then you go "Derp shuld spam vespids". No, spam commanders and some drones. HAve a few pathfinders and FW as support. Win.
Um, do you know anything about the Tau from a fluff / lore perspective or from editions past? Tau are weak at shooting, weak at CC, and have no psychic phase. Spamming kroot and vespid is our strategy now? Sounds like what every Tau player signed up for!
I just.... told you how the tau are a top tier competitive army. And then you go "Derp shuld spam vespids". No, spam commanders and some drones. HAve a few pathfinders and FW as support. Win.
Derp, spam commanders til you win, Tau are a top-tier army.
One spammy build doesn't mean the units and army are fine, because they're not. Commander spam is not what Tau has ever been about, neither on the tabletop or fluff. Even disregarding that, most of the Tau army is overpointed or ineffective (Riptides, Stormsurge, Broadsides, Hammerhead, literally none of these belong in any kind of competitive list). They're also not "pretty effective" in close combat either. What Tau unit would you actually WANT in close combat as opposed to shooting?
Um, do you know anything about the Tau from a fluff / lore perspective or from editions past? Tau are weak at shooting, weak at CC, and have no psychic phase. Spamming kroot and vespid is our strategy now? Sounds like what every Tau player signed up for!
I just.... told you how the tau are a top tier competitive army. And then you go "Derp shuld spam vespids". No, spam commanders and some drones. HAve a few pathfinders and FW as support. Win.
Derp, spam commanders til you win, Tau are a top-tier army.
One spammy build doesn't mean the units and army are fine, because they're not. Commander spam is not what Tau has ever been about, neither on the tabletop or fluff. Even disregarding that, most of the Tau army is overpointed or ineffective (Riptides, Stormsurge, Broadsides, Hammerhead, literally none of these belong in any kind of competitive list). They're also not "pretty effective" in close combat either. What Tau unit would you actually WANT in close combat as opposed to shooting?
Tau commanders are pretty effective in close combat. Enough so that you wouldn't hesitate to send a few unit to degraded units.
They're not specialists, but they do alright. And they leave combat and shoot anyways.
Spamming the most effective units is the competitive meta, so, uh, tau are in the same boat there.
But yes I did note, in my post, that the tau have no middle tier.
But even if they made a lot of tau units better, the competitive list would still be all tau commanders, unless GW had a stroke and made a unit better than commanders. Then you'd see half a dozen to a dozen of that unit instead (riptides in 7th anyone?)
Um, do you know anything about the Tau from a fluff / lore perspective or from editions past? Tau are weak at shooting, weak at CC, and have no psychic phase. Spamming kroot and vespid is our strategy now? Sounds like what every Tau player signed up for!
I just.... told you how the tau are a top tier competitive army. And then you go "Derp shuld spam vespids". No, spam commanders and some drones. HAve a few pathfinders and FW as support. Win.
Derp, spam commanders til you win, Tau are a top-tier army.
One spammy build doesn't mean the units and army are fine, because they're not. Commander spam is not what Tau has ever been about, neither on the tabletop or fluff. Even disregarding that, most of the Tau army is overpointed or ineffective (Riptides, Stormsurge, Broadsides, Hammerhead, literally none of these belong in any kind of competitive list). They're also not "pretty effective" in close combat either. What Tau unit would you actually WANT in close combat as opposed to shooting?
Kroot, kroot hounds, kroot shapers?
Also commanders while the best shooty tau unit are not that good compared to the imperium list just the best the tau have availiable
Daemons have changed quite a bit. Tzeentch is the only god that really got the nurf stick in 8th edition -- the rest of the gods got much better.
They are still not a top tier army. They just cannot compete with 200+ guard models using 30+ mortars.
Tzeentch
The armies of change has taken a big hit. The army is no longer summoning 1000+ points in extra models each game.
Tzeentch is still good. Brimstones plus the Changling is still one of the best combos in the game.
Herald spam or DPs can do a good amount of damage.
The greater daemons have taken a hit. The LoC just is not all that deadly for his point cost.
Khorne
The blood god is still underwhelming. Sure, the units hit like a truck, but they are a glass cannon and explode when looked at.
Bloodletters just got a point reduction, which is nice.
Bloodcrushers are still fast and deadly.
The greater daemon is fast enough to get into assault, but cannot stand up 10+ LCs or deep striking plasma squads.
Overally Khorne is not in a good place, and people are searching for a way to make it work.
Nurgle
Nurgle has improved dramatically with 8th edition. While Nurgle armies still suffer on damage output, their ability to squad and hold objectives is fantastic.
Plaguebearers and Nurglings are fantastic troops.
The greater daemons are good as they are cheap enough to be viable, and durable enough to take some hits. I've had tremendous success with my GUO.
Plague drones are also good, and I've destroyed many flyers with them.
There is great synergy with death guard.
Slaanesh
Slaanesh suffers from some of the same flaws that Khorne does -- but at least Slaanesh is fast enough to get into combat on turn one-two.
Daemonettes got a nice price drop with the CSM codex. Now fielding 30 of them only runs you 220 points.
Their greater daemon is fantastic. The KoS is fast, cheap, and death to most things it touches.
Heralds in seeker chariots are boss.
stratigo wrote: As a note, when talking competitive, Tau are one of the very best armies out there.
But when considering more casual play, the tau drop in the trash.
Tau have 1 ridiculously strong build basis (commander spam) and not utilizing it makes the tau extremely weak. It's the only faction that has this complete lack of middle ground.
Also to the person above who said Kroot spam I proxied it and they die easy to leadership shenanigans. There are a lot of pro players out there better than you who've tried this stuff. They only did as good as they did because of commander spam! Also GW recognised out complaints apparently since Reece is sulking on the last signals I seen. They are going to be reducing the Riptide in price and most likely increasing commander price from what he said. Heck it sounds like a large overhaul. When these changes will appear is unknown. There are rumours the Tau dex could drop around october, but honestly I doubt it. We'll likely have to wait until next year.
It's the Tau haters out there who made it seem like Tau were some sort of unstoppable iWin codex last edition that has seen us get so gak on with balance this edition. Well I guess all I can say now is your going to have to "get good". That's what the IoM player told me when 8th came out. Tau haters over hyped the OPness of the army way too much and now GW is realising it. Your once again going to have to learn that running dead straight at Tau with no cover is not a good idea and never will be.
In responce to "Also to the person above who said Kroot spam I proxied it and they die easy to leadership shenanigans. There are a lot of pro players out there better than you who've tried this stuff. They only did as good as they did because of commander spam!"
Without seeing your list I can't comment. I would certainly have expected you to suffer some moral losses that's why you take 18 + kroot units. Supported by the hounds and vespids. However since you have LD 9 I'm surprised they were that terrible.
Note I'm assuming since you are talking about a pure CC list & since your HQ were all ethereal's and you dropped a model back from each kroot squad for the LD 9 and FNP to help them survive to combat.
vaurapung wrote: I wish the codexes would have been released all together though. This stagered release makes no sense.
It makes sense financially. GW can only print so many books at once so they have to do the armies one at a time. Plus it keeps interest high. People who have multiple armies might not have the cash to buy all the books they need in one hit but spread them out 1-2 a month and people will buy them.
Nothing to do with fairness, just the practicalities of cold, hard cash.
Um, do you know anything about the Tau from a fluff / lore perspective or from editions past? Tau are weak at shooting, weak at CC, and have no psychic phase. Spamming kroot and vespid is our strategy now? Sounds like what every Tau player signed up for!
I just.... told you how the tau are a top tier competitive army. And then you go "Derp shuld spam vespids". No, spam commanders and some drones. HAve a few pathfinders and FW as support. Win.
Derp, spam commanders til you win, Tau are a top-tier army.
One spammy build doesn't mean the units and army are fine, because they're not. Commander spam is not what Tau has ever been about, neither on the tabletop or fluff. Even disregarding that, most of the Tau army is overpointed or ineffective (Riptides, Stormsurge, Broadsides, Hammerhead, literally none of these belong in any kind of competitive list). They're also not "pretty effective" in close combat either. What Tau unit would you actually WANT in close combat as opposed to shooting?
Kroot, kroot hounds, kroot shapers?
Also commanders while the best shooty tau unit are not that good compared to the imperium list just the best the tau have availiable
They're the best almost anyone has available. Conscript based AM core armies are literally the best in the game right now
And the reason tau struggle isn't cause they get shot off the board, as they don't, but because the am player parks multiple 50 man squads on objectives and you can't kill them fast enough
Um, do you know anything about the Tau from a fluff / lore perspective or from editions past? Tau are weak at shooting, weak at CC, and have no psychic phase. Spamming kroot and vespid is our strategy now? Sounds like what every Tau player signed up for!
I just.... told you how the tau are a top tier competitive army. And then you go "Derp shuld spam vespids". No, spam commanders and some drones. HAve a few pathfinders and FW as support. Win.
Derp, spam commanders til you win, Tau are a top-tier army.
One spammy build doesn't mean the units and army are fine, because they're not. Commander spam is not what Tau has ever been about, neither on the tabletop or fluff. Even disregarding that, most of the Tau army is overpointed or ineffective (Riptides, Stormsurge, Broadsides, Hammerhead, literally none of these belong in any kind of competitive list). They're also not "pretty effective" in close combat either. What Tau unit would you actually WANT in close combat as opposed to shooting?
Tau commanders are pretty effective in close combat. Enough so that you wouldn't hesitate to send a few unit to degraded units.
They're not specialists, but they do alright. And they leave combat and shoot anyways.
Spamming the most effective units is the competitive meta, so, uh, tau are in the same boat there.
But yes I did note, in my post, that the tau have no middle tier.
But even if they made a lot of tau units better, the competitive list would still be all tau commanders, unless GW had a stroke and made a unit better than commanders. Then you'd see half a dozen to a dozen of that unit instead (riptides in 7th anyone?)
Well, to be fair, you can say that about almost any army. It's not as if every single type of Guard army build does super well. Conscript build does really well, but going vehicle heavy afaik hasn't done well. Same goes for most other armies as well.
DE generally got better, but at a cost that makes me long for 5th Edition.
7th Edition undeniably gutted our flavor, from halving the weapons units could take to replacing Phil Kelly's delightfully British wit with single word USRs and a Day-1-DLC that was impossible to win without.
We definitely improved, and are sitting at a solid mid-tier, hell, maybe even upper mid-tier at the moment.
But Gork Almighty are we about as flavorless as wood glue. We lost all but two options for Deep Strike, lost vehicle options galore, but that's hardly unique. What really has been irking the community is that our army mostly boils down to a point and click Ravager Spam occasionally supplemented by Flyers. By far, however, we have some of the worst HQ options in the entire game.
The worst offender is the Archon, who I will contend is one of the worst designed units in 8th Edition.
Starting off with his auras, or rather aura. He allows nearby Kabal units (Subfaction of DE) to use his leadership instead of their own. Standard stuff, until you consider that he can only give this buff to all of two units, both of which already have Ld8. Again, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, but considering that said units need a transport to be effective, thus negating auras, or the need for leadership altogether, renders him even more useless.
But even in the best case scenario, the buff is useless. Kabal units are basically MSU Guard with a 6+++. They have two states of being: operating at full effectiveness, or existing as a reddish puddle on the battlefield. I can count on one hand the number of times I've had to take a morale check this edition for Kabalites, because they're either unscathed, or have been blasted off the table. (A 5 man Tac Squad in rapid fire will remove half the unit. 10 Guardsmen with First Rank Second Rank will remove it entirely). What you're left with is an HQ with a single buff that most characters get standard and in addition to other auras, but he can only use it on units that don't need it for multiple reasons.
Said Archon has a dedicated bodyguard unit, despite being the cheap and expendable warlord in our index.
Our close combat HQs have the least attacks of any of the other HQ slots. The Special Character that has for years made a point not to use combat drugs is suddenly a junkie.
As a final bit of salt, the Raider, one of our two transports, has a movement characteristic of 14", making it tied for the slowest vehicle of all the Eldar. What's the other one? The Ravager, also a Dark Eldar vehicle.
Dark Eldar are certainly better improved, but the supposed "blistering fast" skimmers being the slowest of the entire race speaks for itself about our level of flavor.
I'm winning like I couldn't even dream in 7th, but I'm having a blasted insignificant amount of fun doing it.
Lance845 wrote: Nids gained the most. They were bottom of the barrel at the end of 7th and 8th has made basically every unit usable in some kind of a list and many units full blown great.
Right now nids biggest problem is figuring out the most effective way to trim back and focus their units because everything looks so good we want to take it all.
Nids weren't bottom if the barrel they were average, maybe even above average if spamming hive tyrants and mucolid.
Yes we have more options now but we're still average.
Many units are over costed.
Big monsters die too easily as only t6 and many things across the field do lots of wounds.
Nerf to summoning
Flyers worse than other races
Most terrain isn't accessible for monsters
Legit, our lists now consist of 24 biovores (legal limit afaik) and fill the rest. Or, the truly competitive lists are biovores + ig.
This is before the fact that codexes further imbalance the game atm, and naturally sm gets them first ;-)
Nids gained a lot but Guard gained the most in 8th. Orks, Nids, Guard all got buffs. SM and Daemons trended sideways from being top of the heap to still top 3. Ynnari may have dropped just a tad from "best army" to "top 5" but are obviously still powerful. Tau took a big hit. A few skilled players have been able to effectively spam commanders but overall I truly dont think Tau stack up. Maybe its cause I've been wrecking them with Nids/Guard. GSC also took a massive nerf but still exist as the glue between Nids/Guard. Crons seem to have gone down slightly. They do fine up until the top tables where damage output wipes units too fast for them to recover. Decurion was better vs the competitive meta than Crons are now. Knights also took a hit. I truly dont get the "Knights so good!" talk on FLG because knights have been getting kicked around the floor by other competitive armies. Not shooty enough and will get blown away by strong firepower armies.
malcontent999 wrote: Orks took a big hit. The loss of blast and templates means that 5+ ballistic skill really hurts. Plus no more ard boys and special rules for bikers. And red ones don't go faster..
Spoiler:
Orks are a good candidate for 'best improved' army of 8th edition...
How are they best improved? Orkz lost vehicles from the codex/index, lost vehicles from forge world, lost ard boys, lost upgrade options, lost characters (granted this is over time). Weapons and vehicles are over costed like 24 point twin rokkits, 55 point naked koptas, and 900 point naked stompas. For some reason burnas are d3 hits rather than d6. I can belt off some more hits if you want.
I never said they couldn't be competitive or fun, just that they took a lot of hits. Even so, the only really competitive build is the green tide with boyz or stormboyz and some characters. Changes to ork weapons and blast/template has made a hot mess of shooty orkz, and cost of vehicles makes mekanized lists untenable also. One can still have a lot of fun with these in friendly games, but at the moment you'll never beat someone playing for keeps.
Im really hoping Necron Crypteks get back their unique staff options. I used to love doing a royal courts because of those. As it stands they're just a cheap Orikan or a double/tirtiary insurance policy in case your initial and move phase ReProt from ghost arc fail horribly (assuming you give em a rez orb).
Also kind of miss Pariah and Leaders from Dynasties other the Sautekh…
Really hoping Ghost ark gets an expansion on who it can carry when we get our codex, would love to use them as immortal carriers so im not risking warrior survivability by running low numbers. *sigh*
Also kind of wish spiders were a bit beefier and it wasn't a suicidal risk to use their ability to restore scarabs and scarabs weren't so meh, but other then that though im having decent fun with 8th edition. ^_^
malcontent999 wrote: Orks took a big hit. The loss of blast and templates means that 5+ ballistic skill really hurts. Plus no more ard boys and special rules for bikers. And red ones don't go faster..
Spoiler:
Orks are a good candidate for 'best improved' army of 8th edition...
How are they best improved? Orkz lost vehicles from the codex/index, lost vehicles from forge world, lost ard boys, lost upgrade options, lost characters (granted this is over time). Weapons and vehicles are over costed like 24 point twin rokkits, 55 point naked koptas, and 900 point naked stompas. For some reason burnas are d3 hits rather than d6. I can belt off some more hits if you want.
I never said they couldn't be competitive or fun, just that they took a lot of hits. Even so, the only really competitive build is the green tide with boyz or stormboyz and some characters. Changes to ork weapons and blast/template has made a hot mess of shooty orkz, and cost of vehicles makes mekanized lists untenable also. One can still have a lot of fun with these in friendly games, but at the moment you'll never beat someone playing for keeps.
I'm not an Ork player so I can't be precise on changes but at the large ETC event near me green tide came 2nd to IK and was only list to beat my AM army. I couldn't of imagined orks doing so well in 7th. Maybe it is only one hyper comp list but that's better than the 0 they had before
deltaKshatriya wrote: I actually agree that Necrons aren't as bad as people say they are. From my own admittedly limited experience, they can work well at least in some settings.
Guard is mainly just conscript spam that lets them work so well?
The only people who are saying nercons are bad are the people who have been crying since putting crons on the table stopped being an automatic win. They are perfectly fine even with just the index for the most part
Orcs are by far one of the most improved armies at the moment. Its laughable someone is honestly trying to say they are in a bad spot right now
Anyhow, in terms of balance, I think 8th edition overall is both much more "flat" and responsive than 7th edition. Really, I think it's easier to nerf the outliers (like Conscripts, Scions, Commanders, and Daemons and flyers, which was done recently) and make detachments more strict than to buff the 80% of underused units out there.
Orcs are by far one of the most improved armies at the moment. Its laughable someone is honestly trying to say they are in a bad spot right now
Orks are only good if you take a Green Tide, 120-150 Boyz list, and if your opponent doesn't take armored vehicles (yeah, right).
Outside of that, they are simply trash - they have no good options when it comes to shooting, vehicles, or anti-armor/flyer.
I'm sorry, just because they have one viable list and playstyle does not a good army make - I'm glad they got something, but let's be realistic with where we think they fall on the power scale.
deltaKshatriya wrote: I actually agree that Necrons aren't as bad as people say they are. From my own admittedly limited experience, they can work well at least in some settings.
Guard is mainly just conscript spam that lets them work so well?
The only people who are saying nercons are bad are the people who have been crying since putting crons on the table stopped being an automatic win. They are perfectly fine even with just the index for the most part
Orcs are by far one of the most improved armies at the moment. Its laughable someone is honestly trying to say they are in a bad spot right now
Cron's work in a casual setting okay, infact casually every army is very balanced atm. In general when speaking about their weaknesses, its only in a competitive setting, where they are pretty bad. My win rate has actually gone up in 8th now I can play whatever I like and not bring sub-optimal lists to make games fair for both sides. Just underwhelming as a faction atm, but the codex should bring some flavour back.
Going by 8th edition rules, Orks benefited the LEAST!!!
New Cover Rules: Orks went from a 4+ Cover save on our 6+ models to a 5+ Cover save. They also changed the rules so that the unit doesn't benefit in competitive play unless the entire unit is in cover. Good luck fitting 30 Boyz into a grove of trees or behind a 3in long wall section.
Blast: Holy crap, we don't have a single blast weapon worth taking. the changes to blast hit the Orkz like a brick. My Kill Kannons (I Have 3) cost 27pts, are S7 -2AP 2damage and ranged 24. They fire D6 shots which averages 3-4 shots and at BS2 that means 1 hit a turn on average. I am paying 27pts for a weaker, shorter ranged, less AP and less damage lascannon. Even if you roll that lucky 6 thats on average only 2 hits a turn.
Pricing: We had units go up absurdly high in cost. Warbikers went from 18pts to 27, they lost jink and their special rules as well. Yeah they gained that all important +1 wound for durability, damn shame it actually made them LESS durable. I could reliably get a blob of bikers with a 2+ cover save either with characters or night fighting/turbo-boosting. The worst offender in my opinion though are our ranged weapons. I used to spam Rokkitz on everything, they never hit anything but at 5pts why not take a S8 AP3 rokkit? Now? 12pts for a single shot rokkit, and if you have a model that has to take 2 like the DeffKopta? 24 right? NOPE 28 because feth you very much.
You want to talk about an army taking a hit? Last edition we had Mech Lists which were competitive, we had Green Tide lists that were competitive we even had a competitive speed freak list. This edition? Its either green tide or nothing.
The only benefits we got this edition were to boyz. Boyz are only good because unlike everything else in our codex, they remained roughly the right price. There is nothing new or exciting about them though honestly. We lost movement, we lost cover, we lost 5+ FNP, we lost powerklaws being useful. We gained +1 strength (we had that on the charge anyway) we gained the standard 3+ to hit, which we had against most other armies anyway (except speesemehreens) we gained...nothing else really. We "Gaine" +1 attack with choppa but our basic load out was choppa/slugga which already gave us that +1 attack which we promptly lost. Mob rule got "Better" kind of. It still isn't where it should be like it was in 5th edition. Basically the giant blobs benefit from the new mob rule and nothing else. Worse, standard nob upgrades don't have a nullifying effect like they should.
Anyone here who thinks orkz are one of the top benefiting armies of 8th has no idea about orkz and are probably basing their opinion on a handful of games against the only competitive list we have.
Tau suits except the commander took a big hit. All are hitting only on 4+ as ever but now suffering from moving if they don´t take that special support system and they lost their hit and run capability.
But i have to say that Longstrike with Hammerheads equipped with Ion cannons did quite well, a little expensive perhaps.
Certainly many armies lost a lot (GSC and Tau took the biggest hit imo) but to try and drag this back to the OP, I think that Guard is the final answer. Guard are insanely powerful now, no questions about it. And to think that they havent even gotten their Codex yet is scary as they will only get stronger.
SemperMortis wrote: You want to talk about an army taking a hit? Last edition we had Mech Lists which were competitive, we had Green Tide lists that were competitive we even had a competitive speed freak list. This edition? Its either green tide or nothing.
I know that screaming about how the sky falling everywhere is your thing, but let's be serious: None of the list you just called "competitive" did stand anywhere near a chance to beat the top competitive lists, let alone place anywhere in the top 3 of a major tournament.
Most ork armies didn't even stand a chance to beat a competitive army that was generated out of anything but the bottom tier of codices - usually the tournament reports had some line saying "and then there was this one dude who brought orks and didn't place last". So last edition it was just nothing.
Orks are not totally awesome now, but overall it has become a lot better than in 6th or 7th. We're still below what we had in 5th though.
So yes, orks got a massive boost. If they manage to not totally screw up our codex now, I'll be happy.
Oh, and the should keep the guy who wrote the rules for the Waaagh! Ghazkhull supplement locked up in a cage somewhere so ork players who visit the HQ can throw metal deff dreads at him.
SemperMortis wrote: You want to talk about an army taking a hit? Last edition we had Mech Lists which were competitive, we had Green Tide lists that were competitive we even had a competitive speed freak list. This edition? Its either green tide or nothing.
I know that screaming about how the sky falling everywhere is your thing, but let's be serious: None of the list you just called "competitive" did stand anywhere near a chance to beat the top competitive lists, let alone place anywhere in the top 3 of a major tournament.
Most ork armies didn't even stand a chance to beat a competitive army that was generated out of anything but the bottom tier of codices - usually the tournament reports had some line saying "and then there was this one dude who brought orks and didn't place last". So last edition it was just nothing.
Orks are not totally awesome now, but overall it has become a lot better than in 6th or 7th. We're still below what we had in 5th though.
So yes, orks got a massive boost. If they manage to not totally screw up our codex now, I'll be happy.
Oh, and the should keep the guy who wrote the rules for the Waaagh! Ghazkhull supplement locked up in a cage somewhere so ork players who visit the HQ can throw metal deff dreads at him.
In your opinion what is better about Orkz in 8th over 7th? Because the only things I can think of are Boyz, Mob rule and Ghaz not being a complete waste of 200+ points.
Klowny wrote: I mean, you actually see orks in the top tables in major tournaments now, which wasn't the case in 7th?
And the only reason for that is Boyz spam. So like I said, beyond the stuff already mentioned, what has gotten better?
I think the main thing common to those top armies, was a squiggoth. Sure boyz made up a lot of lists but there were a few with stormboyz.
As a whole the army is alot more playable this edition, they were very very bad last edition, and while stuff may be expensive, there have been other armies that have been harder hit. *raises hand for my undying phalanx*
I've played against a fledgling ork player and the army can have brutal combos, and are very capable and playable on a casual setting, and are tournament capable. Neither of which were the case last edition. So on a holistic level, orks have vastly improved.
I understand its hard to see this when you play the faction and if you go unit by unit things may look worse, but they are much better this edition than last.
Look at the tournament settings, they rank alot higher than alot of armies. Look at dakkas results for casual play, sure they're not the best but your codex isnt even out yet.
The sky is not falling my friend.
My army has been hit incredibly hard, and while I dont like being bottom of the ladder now, I feel the codex's will balance everything out. Even so, necrons aren't in a very bad place, just hard to play if your opponent is anyway competent
Klowny wrote: I mean, you actually see orks in the top tables in major tournaments now, which wasn't the case in 7th?
And the only reason for that is Boyz spam. So like I said, beyond the stuff already mentioned, what has gotten better?
I think the main thing common to those top armies, was a squiggoth. Sure boyz made up a lot of lists but there were a few with stormboyz.
As a whole the army is alot more playable this edition, they were very very bad last edition, and while stuff may be expensive, there have been other armies that have been harder hit. *raises hand for my undying phalanx*
I've played against a fledgling ork player and the army can have brutal combos, and are very capable and playable on a casual setting, and are tournament capable. Neither of which were the case last edition. So on a holistic level, orks have vastly improved.
I understand its hard to see this when you play the faction and if you go unit by unit things may look worse, but they are much better this edition than last.
Look at the tournament settings, they rank alot higher than alot of armies. Look at dakkas results for casual play, sure they're not the best but your codex isnt even out yet.
The sky is not falling my friend.
Ive not said the sky is falling, i am pointing out fact. You say everything got better, the opposite is true, the only good combos we have involve boyz. Stormboyz are just regular boyz with better movement. So beyond that we don't really have much, Weirdboyz have use now, and honestly beyond that i am struggling to see anything that got better.
So what combos are you talking about? What hidden gems am I missing? And as a heads up, Squiggoths are FW not index, most tournaments I go to restrict FW.
Nobs loaded to the teeth with weapons are scary, dakkajets and a bunch of da jumped boyz is terrifying. flash gitz perform very well. Meganobz eat a whole bunch. Sure all of these are expensive units/combos, which rule them out for tournament level play, but are very competent on casual tables. But just because they aren't viable competitively doesnt mean the army is worse off. The army is better off becuase of boys, and only boys in general, but the fact orks are competitive means they have got better.
Before you could have greentide or mek spam, as the only even casually competitive builds, now you can do alot of things with alot of different units. That means the army is better even casually.
If you want to talk expensive combos, I'm happy to show you how much worse it can get.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just realised that this from the view of a necron player, and we have been shafted harder than most armies, so maybe against the stronger armies you may struggle more. In saying that I have a 100% win rate, and my main opponent is a guard player that loves spamming conscripts, HWT, and scion plasma, so a pretty hardcore build.
For reference your lucky you have boyz, necrons can barely be competitive even with FW, only due to how strong the pylon is.
Automatically Appended Next Post: and im not trying to get into a 'who has had it worse this edition gak swinging competition', i just want to point out that orks are a lot better off than they were in 7th, as most armies are on a similar level, with outlier units making some armies stronger than average. But as a whole everyone is very comparable this edition.
Nobz didnt get better, they got slightly cheaper but to counter that they made the weapon upgrades more expensive. So no they didn't get better.
Dakkajets, same thing really. But they went from Utter trash that is never worth taking to Utter trash that you can take in a seriously friendly game. They have 18 shots, 9 hits and against Marines 6 wounds which cause 3 Casualties...unless they are in cover then its 2. So you are paying 150ish pts for a model that can slay 2-3 MEQS a turn.
Flashgitz Are still utter crap. So many ways to make them relevant and what does GW do? Destroys any Synergy they have with the rest of the Index. 3 shots hitting on 5s = 1 hit. And they will always be moving because they are short ranged and need a vehicle to survive past your opponents turn 1. Even if you gave them 4+ armor they would still be terrible because they are so heavily over priced that your opponent can hit them with everything early on and make his pts back.
Meganobz got worse, by a lot. First off they lost attacks. Secondly they lost WS, it was very common for Meganobz to hit on 3s last edition, this edition they are always hitting on 4s unless you are paying for an expensive Banner Nob who would be better employed fighting with da Boyz. So to summarize, fewer attacks and fewer hits. Yeah they did get 1 extra wound, but in an edition where Plasma and any number of other weapons is 2 or D3 damage that isn't a buff, its more o a way to keep it where it was supposed to be, and even then I think they failed.
the point of this thread is comparing 7th to 8th and seeing which armies benefited the most. So far you have boyz, stormboyz, and I'll even give you Dakkajets even though they are still crap, and add my own in there as Kommandos.
In response though we had the following units heavily nerfed or had such a drastic increase in price that they aren't viable anymore.
Meganobz
Burnas
Warbikes
Deff Koptas
Trukk
Battlewagon
Stompa
Mek Gunz
Big Gunz
Kanz
Dreadz
And a few more. As an example of what I am talking about. Trukkz in 7th were crap, but they were 30pts of crap so worth it. This edition they are 82pts, or 88 if you equip them the way I used to have mine with the Rokkit Launcha. So 30pts just became 88. that is just shy of a 200% increase in price. What did it gain from going up in cost 200%? Well its T6 now instead of AV10 which is actually a bit of nerf since now instead of being glanced on 6s by S4 weapons it is now getting hit on 5s. It did gain a nifty 4+ save and went from 3 HPs to 10 wounds. So the good news is that it can't be 1 shot by a AP2 weapon. So for a decent increase in durability it went up in price 200%....Which is why you won't see Trukkz in any competitive list anymore.
My speed Freak list died horribly this edition as well. my warbikers went from 18pts (I considered this to be slightly over priced as well) to 27pts, they gained the same buffs Boyz got and 1 extra wound, they also lost Jink, Turbo-special rule and the change to twinlinked didn't help them nearly as much as it helped Marine players. So 2 Wounds is actually a nerf to durability again because of how many -AP weapons are everywhere, prior to this edition If a lascannon hit my bikes I had a minimum of a 50/50 to survive (Jink) which I could improve with Night fighting, Zhadsnark or Turbo-boosting, any 2 of these would give me a 2+ Jink save. This edition? the model is just dead. But hey the shooting did get better! I went from 1.66 hits on average to 2, woohoo! of course a SM player went from 2.66 hits to 4....but hey at least they didn't increase the prices drastically on anything i had thats TL... (Sarcasm they did )
So, i know nothing about Necrons so I don't know how hard you guys got hit but I can tell you that Orkz are in a bad place right now, the META is going full horde for the Nids, IG, Chaos and Orkz so it won't be long before Marine Players are taking more gunlines and wiping out those horde relatively quickly. And unfortunately that is the only thing orkz have that is viable in competitive games.
SemperMortis wrote: Nobz didnt get better, they got slightly cheaper but to counter that they made the weapon upgrades more expensive. So no they didn't get better.
Which ones? Killsaws, PKs, Big Choppas or Powa-Stabbas? Or any of the combi-weapons that were utterly useless last edition?
Also ammo runts being additional wounds is a huge buff to them, for the first time ever it's possible to footslog regular nobz without just throwing away points..
Dakkajets, same thing really. But they went from Utter trash that is never worth taking to Utter trash that you can take in a seriously friendly game. They have 18 shots, 9 hits and against Marines 6 wounds which cause 3 Casualties...unless they are in cover then its 2. So you are paying 150ish pts for a model that can slay 2-3 MEQS a turn.
Now do that math again for 7th edition. Best case 12 on a Waaagh!, 9 of those hit, 7.5 wound, 2.5 dead MEQ. Without the Waaagh only 1.8 dead MEQ. So still slightly worse once per game, a lot worse the rest of the game.
You can't deny that they got better.
In response though we had the following units heavily nerfed or had such a drastic increase in price that they aren't viable anymore.
Burnas
They were viable in 7th? The edition where you couldn't shoot from transports when it moved more than 6"? Where tau and eldar would kill them during overwatch and make them fail their charge. That is, if a knight didn't just stomp all over them laughing about their useless S4 AP3 weapons. Last but not least you had to drop one burna (or buy a HQ mek) to have any chance of ever passing a moral tests. Oh, and they were more expensive than they are now.
They nerfed a template that never did anything to d3 hits. Yeah, that sucks, but it's not like they ever got to fire that template against anyone that wasn't assaulting their battlewagon out of idiocy.
Deff Koptas
Better bombs, decent close combat weapons, twice the wounds, ability to deep strike at will, hit&run works reliably now. Sure the weapon costs suck, but in general they are not worse than their previous incarnations.
Trukk
And a few more. As an example of what I am talking about. Trukkz in 7th were crap, but they were 30pts of crap so worth it. This edition they are 82pts, or 88 if you equip them the way I used to have mine with the Rokkit Launcha. So 30pts just became 88. that is just shy of a 200% increase in price. What did it gain from going up in cost 200%? Well its T6 now instead of AV10 which is actually a bit of nerf since now instead of being glanced on 6s by S4 weapons it is now getting hit on 5s. It did gain a nifty 4+ save and went from 3 HPs to 10 wounds. So the good news is that it can't be 1 shot by a AP2 weapon. So for a decent increase in durability it went up in price 200%....Which is why you won't see Trukkz in any competitive list anymore.
The reality of 7th was that you paid 30 points to have your mob take 12 s4 hits, then take a pinning test, then take a moral test because you lost half your unit and have the nob kill another one or two boyz, leaving you with around four boyz and a nob after the first turn of enemy shooting - because even scatter lasers and pulse rifles could make the trukk explode.
You basically paid 30 points to have your unit of boyz take more casualties. The only thing that worked in trukks was MANz because they were immune to most of the awesome transport rules of 7th.
The reason you don't see trukks now is because there is no payload that is worth delivering. Trukks are awesome transports now, it's just that you don't have anything to put in them that wouldn't be better off in a battlewagon or footslogging.
Battlewagon
Deff rolla? T8 instead of AV12/10? Can easily take three close-up hits from melta and still keep running? In 7th losing 4 battlewagons by turn 2 was normal, if your opponent got lucky he could kill them all turn 1. Oh, and they also killed half their passengers while getting killed.
Also, no more deep-striking units shooting rear armor, and not even overcharged plasma can take it down reliably.
The most used loadout for BWs since 5th has been a single big shoota to prevent immobilize, and the killkannon has always been terrible.
Stompa
Well... it went from terrible to more terrible. Can't argue that. Not even FW managed to create half-decent stompa rules.
Mek Gunz
I'd argue that the bubblechucka and the smasha gun actually got better, KMK got worse. The tractor cannons are worse against flyers now, but better against ground targets.
Big Gunz
Zzap gun got better, Kannon blast got worse, but you usually fielded them for the direct shot. Lobba did get worse.
Kanz
They were awesomely bad last edition. The kan klaw was nerfed into oblivion (now better again!), they had to pass moral checks wen taking casualties or were unable to shoot and died to a stiff breeze due to 2HP at AV11.
Now they've still got no more moral issues in units of 3, and get a buff to attacks in larger units. A kan with a KMB is only 5 points more than in the old edition.
Dreadz
Guides did advice putting two big shootas on dreads because they would never reach combat anyways. Sooner or later they were close enough to a melta to one-shot them, if some autocannon didn't just shoot the laughable 3 hp off the thing. Even if they made it into combat, some MC would simply smash it dead.
Now it does have a realistic chance of crossing the field and tear a whole into anything that dares to fight it - because it can finally strike first. It also got 'ere we go without needing a 1200 point minimum formation.
About that awesome jink save - you seem to be forgetting that everyone and their dog was ignoring cover in 7th, so you would rarely, if ever, have a jink save.
Orks were not buffed to top tier in any way, but it's really hard to claim that we have it worse than before. The list of competitive units from the old codex is MA Warboss with da lucky stikk, MANz, KMK. End.
So, i know nothing about Necrons so I don't know how hard you guys got hit but I can tell you that Orkz are in a bad place right now, the META is going full horde for the Nids, IG, Chaos and Orkz so it won't be long before Marine Players are taking more gunlines and wiping out those horde relatively quickly. And unfortunately that is the only thing orkz have that is viable in competitive games.
Well, you said the same when 8th hit - two months ago.
Which ones? Killsaws, PKs, Big Choppas or Powa-Stabbas? Or any of the combi-weapons that were utterly useless last edition?
Also ammo runts being additional wounds is a huge buff to them, for the first time ever it's possible to footslog regular nobz without just throwing away points..
Combi-Skorchas were very useful last edition and were only I believe a 5pt upgrade and I took them often. Now they cost 19pts. Not exactly competitive anymore. PKs and Killsaws stayed roughly the same price but they took a hit in regards to effectiveness, that -1 to hit is a huge deal. Ammo runts are good, but think of it this way, you are paying 4pts for an upgrade that functions as a free wound. Not a great use of 4pts but not a terrible use either. Overall I think they are on the right track but they still are crap and actually got worse in their #1 role which was Close Combat and a platform for Skorchas. This unit got worse
Now do that math again for 7th edition. Best case 12 on a Waaagh!, 9 of those hit, 7.5 wound, 2.5 dead MEQ. Without the Waaagh only 1.8 dead MEQ. So still slightly worse once per game, a lot worse the rest of the game.
You can't deny that they got better.
I will give you this, it got marginally better. Not enough to ever take one in anything but a fluffy for fun game, but yes it got MARGINALLY better. I will give you this one. This unit got marginally better.
They were viable in 7th? The edition where you couldn't shoot from transports when it moved more than 6"? Where tau and eldar would kill them during overwatch and make them fail their charge. That is, if a knight didn't just stomp all over them laughing about their useless S4 AP3 weapons. Last but not least you had to drop one burna (or buy a HQ mek) to have any chance of ever passing a moral tests. Oh, and they were more expensive than they are now.
They nerfed a template that never did anything to d3 hits. Yeah, that sucks, but it's not like they ever got to fire that template against anyone that wasn't assaulting their battlewagon out of idiocy.
Yes Burnas did in fact get worse, the template basically made them useless because the only reason people took them in the first place was in Burna wagonz. Nobody used them in assault or as foot sloggin because they sucked at that. So yes they got worse, but since they were already crap its not that noticeable. A crap unit became even Crappier, this unit got worse.
Deff Koptas
Better bombs, decent close combat weapons, twice the wounds, ability to deep strike at will, hit&run works reliably now. Sure the weapon costs suck, but in general they are not worse than their previous incarnations.
From 30pts to 83. They lost jink as well but gained 2 wounds YAY! nope. Still a loss in durability. they did gain a semi-useful one time bomb, but you won't use it often if your opponent knows about them because Deff Koptas are squishy as hell for 83pts. and their CC weapons you brag about are crap. one gives you 4attacks at S4 -1AP and the other gives you 2 S8 attacks at -1 to hit so likely 1 hit, and to get the 2nd one you add another 30ish pts to the cost. No, Deff Koptas are utter trash now. This unit got Worse by a lot.
Trukkz
The reality of 7th was that you paid 30 points to have your mob take 12 s4 hits, then take a pinning test, then take a moral test because you lost half your unit and have the nob kill another one or two boyz, leaving you with around four boyz and a nob after the first turn of enemy shooting - because even scatter lasers and pulse rifles could make the trukk explode.
You basically paid 30 points to have your unit of boyz take more casualties. The only thing that worked in trukks was MANz because they were immune to most of the awesome transport rules of 7th.
The reason you don't see trukks now is because there is no payload that is worth delivering. Trukks are awesome transports now, it's just that you don't have anything to put in them that wouldn't be better off in a battlewagon or footslogging.
So NOW they are awesome transports, and since boyz got better this edition that means they should be in them right? No, whoops there goes your whole point. And didn't you just argue that nobz got way better? Why aren't they riding trukkz in competitive lists? Say what you want, Trukkz are DRASTICALLY over priced. And the fact is that last edition people spammed them in tournament lists, and this edition you don't even see them in local tournaments.
This unit got SIGNIFICANTLY Worse.
Battlewagon
Deff rolla? T8 instead of AV12/10? Can easily take three close-up hits from melta and still keep running? In 7th losing 4 battlewagons by turn 2 was normal, if your opponent got lucky he could kill them all turn 1. Oh, and they also killed half their passengers while getting killed.
Also, no more deep-striking units shooting rear armor, and not even overcharged plasma can take it down reliably.
The most used loadout for BWs since 5th has been a single big shoota to prevent immobilize, and the killkannon has always been terrible.
T8 only when you use the "Ard Top" and by doing so you negate its open topped ability making it a giant transport and gun platform. I used to run 3 wagons in my Speed Freak list, I never had a problem with them, they usually didn't die until turn 3+ and usually because I had dropped the passengers off and no longer cared about them. And I also used to field them with 4 Rokkitz and a Kannon for a grand total of 30pts because for 30pts I got 5 S8 shots. Now that same load out costs 63pts, so not worth taking now. The wagon also went from 110pts to 161, which is roughly a 50% increase in price for that minor addition to durability. And while you are right about Melta and such you seem to forget that they are now SIGNIFICANTLY more vulnerable to every type of weapon and can't hide behind cover with an AV14 front sticking out to negate most shooting. So I would call the durability a wash and point to the massive increase in cost for weapons, which are not negated by the fact that we got Deff Rollas back...kind of. This unit got worse.
Stompa
Well... it went from terrible to more terrible. Can't argue that. Not even FW managed to create half-decent stompa rules.
Agreed, atm its beyond crap. This unit got worse...but i think it hit the bottom of the barrel, broke through and slammed into the nether.
Mek Gunz
I'd argue that the bubblechucka and the smasha gun actually got better, KMK got worse. The tractor cannons are worse against flyers now, but better against ground targets.
The prices and durability also took a huge hit so the stats of those 2 guns might have gotten slightly better but the end result is still a worse platform. T7 3+ save to T5 5+ save is a huge nerf, and the old wording allowed artillery to take hits as if the Grots were T7 so you bought the extra grots and they were great as meat shields. This unit got worse.
Big Gunz
Zzap gun got better, Kannon blast got worse, but you usually fielded them for the direct shot. Lobba did get worse.
Zzap guns didn't get better, they got different. the other two you even note got worse. But more importantly they were T7 3+ now they are T5 with a 5+ and only have 3 wounds..., that is just horrible. It also went up in price by 50%. So do the math on that, it lost durability by a lot, most of the gunz got worse and it still went up in price 50%....ridiculous. This unit did Get worse
Kanz
They were awesomely bad last edition. The kan klaw was nerfed into oblivion (now better again!), they had to pass moral checks wen taking casualties or were unable to shoot and died to a stiff breeze due to 2HP at AV11.
Now they've still got no more moral issues in units of 3, and get a buff to attacks in larger units. A kan with a KMB is only 5 points more than in the old edition.
Yeah they were terrible last edition, but that is because they went up in price by about 40% while losing Strength on their klaw. The morale check was a minor problem at best. If you do field Kanz this edition you need them in units of 3 minimum because that gives you the bonus, and they do in fact have a morale issue, and it got worse. If you field a unit of 6 and lose 2 on a leadership check of 5 you lose another model, on 6 you lost 2. That is a big deal. They also went up in cost again...which is mind boggling. Actually most price increases in the Index are mind boggling because most of the units were trash before so GW said "You know what will make them better? making them cost more points!" They also don't have any weapons worth taking now, the nerf to grotzooka was the worst issue. SO overall YES this unit got worse.
Dreadz
Guides did advice putting two big shootas on dreads because they would never reach combat anyways. Sooner or later they were close enough to a melta to one-shot them, if some autocannon didn't just shoot the laughable 3 hp off the thing. Even if they made it into combat, some MC would simply smash it dead.
Now it does have a realistic chance of crossing the field and tear a whole into anything that dares to fight it - because it can finally strike first. It also got 'ere we go without needing a 1200 point minimum formation.
I will admit this unit got marginally better, it is still heavily over priced but it did get better.
About that awesome jink save - you seem to be forgetting that everyone and their dog was ignoring cover in 7th, so you would rarely, if ever, have a jink save.
False, Jink saved my army more often then not in 7th. I played speed freak and had anywhere from 20-35 bikers on the table at any given time. Without Jink my army would have died turn 2 at the absolute latest because T5 4+ isn't hard to kill, but T5 with a 3+ Jink save or 2+ Jink save was money.
SemperMortis wrote: PKs and Killsaws stayed roughly the same price but they took a hit in regards to effectiveness, that -1 to hit is a huge deal.
Nobz were WS4 last edition, you were already hitting almost everything on 4+ except for stuff that didn't stand a chance in the first place. You also get to strike first with you PK now, and killsaws weren't even an option.
What the PK lost (and thus our entire army) is the ability to reliably handle vehicles.
Overall I think they are on the right track but they still are crap and actually got worse in their #1 role which was Close Combat and a platform for Skorchas. This unit got worse
Their number one role has always been wrecking stuff with mutliple PKs and a Waaagh! banner. They just sucked so bad that the only way they were used was cheap suicide skorchas.
Now do that math again for 7th edition. Best case 12 on a Waaagh!, 9 of those hit, 7.5 wound, 2.5 dead MEQ. Without the Waaagh only 1.8 dead MEQ. So still slightly worse once per game, a lot worse the rest of the game.
You can't deny that they got better.
I will give you this, it got marginally better. Not enough to ever take one in anything but a fluffy for fun game, but yes it got MARGINALLY better. I will give you this one. This unit got marginally better.
3 dead MEQ instead of 1.8 is a 66% increase. Good thing the dakka jet is now just "marginally worse" than the storm talon which is considered decent for most marines and kills 4 MEQ a turn, which is just 33% more.
Yes Burnas did in fact get worse, the template basically made them useless because the only reason people took them in the first place was in Burna wagonz.
You are probably thinking about 5th. There were no burna wagons in 7th. Whenever the battlewagon would move more than 6" template weapons could not shoot from it. Which means you would have to drive within 8" of your opponent, wait a turn, hope your BW didn't get instant-killed by whatever because you are most likely exposed your rear armor. Then, next turn, your could drive yourself into flaming position and try killing something with that template - assuming anything worth flaming didn't just move away. Unless your opponent was a serious idiot or was completely unaware of what burnaz can do, this never worked.
Considering battlewagons can move 12" and now and have burnaz fire from it again, burna wagons actually got better - because 15 d3 hits is still better than none at all and a dead battlewagon. And it's not like you got more than 3 hits from their templates in 7th anyways.
They lost jink as well but gained 2 wounds YAY! nope. Still a loss in durability.
Jinking with koptas was usually 5+ because they could not go to ground and have no exhaust cloud. Against anything with AP-1 or less, they are more durable now, and only against weapons with AP-2 or better and at least 3 oder d6 damage they are only slightly less durable, because all those lascannons, melta and plasma weapons used to wound them on 2's instead of 3's. The kopa stood close to no chance to survive a squad of bolter marines, and anything that kills them easy now killed it easily as well last edition.
and their CC weapons you brag about are crap. one gives you 4attacks at S4 -1AP
2d3 S5 attacks at AP 0. You don't make a convincing argument if you can't even get the numbers right.
Previously they had a choppa and most likely S3. You can't argue that those didn't get better.
This unit got Worse by a lot.
So, in your opinion, what did the kopta do last edition, it can't do now? In actual games, not by just tossing numbers in the air without comparing them to anything.
The reason you think they got terrible because they are too expensive to be a suicide unit now, which is what they were used mostly for before. However, they now durable enough that they need a dedicated anti-tank shooting to remove, which is reflected in their points. Of course, this advantage is lost if you are fielding all boyz otherwise, but in my games with BW my opponents were struggling to remove them.
If rokkits weren't so badly overpriced, they were an awesome unit now.
So NOW they are awesome transports, and since boyz got better this edition that means they should be in them right? No, whoops there goes your whole point.
Whoops, mobs of 12 don't have the additional attack, no awesome moral, no buff characters and warpheads cannot use psychic powers from transports and the PK no longer . Mobs of 30 boyz got better. Mobs of 12 boyz are close to useless now.
And didn't you just argue that nobz got way better? Why aren't they riding trukkz in competitive lists?
Don't start moving goalposts now. Your argument was that all those units got worse, not that they got to a competitive level.
Say what you want, Trukkz are DRASTICALLY over priced. And the fact is that last edition people spammed them in tournament lists, and this edition you don't even see them in local tournaments.
They spammed MANz which happened to be riding trukks. Other than that trukks were useless deathtrapps. What you got for all other units wasn't even worth a single point.
T8 only when you use the "Ard Top" and by doing so you negate its open topped ability making it a giant transport and gun platform.
Open topped does not affect it's ability to transport in anyway - unlike in 7th. It's also free now.
I used to run 3 wagons in my Speed Freak list, I never had a problem with them, they usually didn't die until turn 3+ and usually because I had dropped the passengers off and no longer cared about them.
Good for you, my opponents actually did bring AP1 and 2 weapons that could penetrate AV12, resulting in an explosion half the time. What did they shoot those weapons at? Your jinking koptaz and bikes?
And I also used to field them with 4 Rokkitz and a Kannon for a grand total of 30pts because for 30pts I got 5 S8 shots.
Which were shooting snapshots at 6+ unless you chose to remain stationary. For slightly more than twice the points, you now get twice the fire power which is not a crater by turn 2. How exactly did that get worse?
Also, didn't you ever move your battlewagons flat out? How did you even reach your opponents?
I somehow doubt that you actually ever played a battlewagon like that in 7th.
And while you are right about Melta and such you seem to forget that they are now SIGNIFICANTLY more vulnerable to every type of weapon and can't hide behind cover with an AV14 front sticking out to negate most shooting.
That's not how the rules worked. As soon as anyone was in the AV12 arc he could shoot it, no matter which sides were visible. Anything that was able to move didn't shoot AV14, ever.
That it got significantly more vulnerable to any weapon is flat out wrong. Sure, bolter marines and have a 5% chance of wounding it from the sides and the front now, but they need to do it 18 times to kill a battlewagon. The only thing that got notably better at wounding battlewagons are S6/5 weapons with AP-1, but they have almost five times the wounds they had previously, which means four to five times the firepower needed to destroy, no matter what is shooting it. There is no way to for any realistic amount of firepower to kill the wagon faste than last edition.
The prices and durability also took a huge hit so the stats of those 2 guns might have gotten slightly better but the end result is still a worse platform. T7 3+ save to T5 5+ save is a huge nerf, and the old wording allowed artillery to take hits as if the Grots were T7 so you bought the extra grots and they were great as meat shields. This unit got worse.
The gun also has 6 wounds by itself and gets 5 gretchin for 10, for a total of 11 wounds, instead of the 6 it had previously. The mek gun itself now has as many wounds as the unit previously had.
Zzap guns didn't get better, they got different.
If adding causing mortal wounds to the enemy when it gets hot isn't a buff, I don't know what is.
If you field a unit of 6 and lose 2 on a leadership check of 5 you lose another model, on 6 you lost 2. That is a big deal. They also went up in cost again...which is mind boggling. Actually most price increases in the Index are mind boggling because most of the units were trash before so GW said "You know what will make them better? making them cost more points!"
Gotta love how you just willfully ignore the massive increase of wounds almost everywhere. T5 W5 3+ is a massive buff to survivability compared to AV11 HP2. Previously a single wave serpent could wipe out a unit of kanz on it's own. Killing two kanz now takes some serious firepower.
If you take your usual measurement for durability, which is being shot by a predator annihilator, you need over 200 points to kill a single kan on average, According to that, Kanz are tough as nails.
False, Jink saved my army more often then not in 7th. I played speed freak and had anywhere from 20-35 bikers on the table at any given time. Without Jink my army would have died turn 2 at the absolute latest because T5 4+ isn't hard to kill, but T5 with a 3+ Jink save or 2+ Jink save was money.
I guess you were the one player without tau, eldar and daemons in his meta then.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: Personally, I think everyone's taken a hit until they get their Codex.
Don't get me started on how it's kinda scummy that Marines got their Codex during a massive campaign event. And I play Marines.
We'll know who really took the hits as soon as the other books drop. So far, my only complaint is that a Crusader Squad is genuinely nothing more than a big blob of bolters and such, and has no real purpose any more.
A lot of folk seem to want the Crusader squad to have an assault focus again, personally I love that it doesn't: the purpose of Crusader Squads was to represent the BT's fluff on the table, ie groups of individual warriors each with their own preferred set of equipment or as you put it a big blob of bolters and such, but the way the rules worked in previous editions made mixed units worthless and so you either got big melee blob Crusaders or MSU specialspam Crusaders and nothing in between. 8th is the first time you don't get punished for using them "properly" because between universal split fire and rapid fire weapons no longer preventing a charge a marine with a bolter firing and then charging has something close to parity with a marine who charges then gets an extra attack from their chainsword. And you can still use the two previously more "efficient" loadouts if you want to, they're just not the *only* choices anymore.
As to the OT - the first distinction will be between have-Codex and no-Codex-yet armies, but among the latter Orks look to have suffered the most. You can still make 'em work but in a far more limited number of ways than before.
Klowny wrote: I take it you also feel orks are in a much better place this edition Jidmah?
Yes, considering how I dropped WH40k completely in 7th and now play again on a regular basis. I don't own anything but about 10k points of orks.
Unlike in 7th I feel like there is a point to actually putting ork models on the table. The index army has a lot of weaknesses and some pretty big oversights in balancing to put it nicely, but 8th edition and the index army are a great improvement over 7th, the last codex and the piece of squiggoth guano they dared to call Waaagh! Ghazghkull - especially the updated version of it.
Edit: I realized for the first time since joining dakka that "feth" is an automatic censoring
SemperMortis wrote: PKs and Killsaws stayed roughly the same price but they took a hit in regards to effectiveness, that -1 to hit is a huge deal.
Nobz were WS4 last edition, you were already hitting almost everything on 4+ except for stuff that didn't stand a chance in the first place. You also get to strike first with you PK now, and killsaws weren't even an option.
What the PK lost (and thus our entire army) is the ability to reliably handle vehicles.
Overall I think they are on the right track but they still are crap and actually got worse in their #1 role which was Close Combat and a platform for Skorchas. This unit got worse
Their number one role has always been wrecking stuff with mutliple PKs and a Waaagh! banner. They just sucked so bad that the only way they were used was cheap suicide skorchas.
Now do that math again for 7th edition. Best case 12 on a Waaagh!, 9 of those hit, 7.5 wound, 2.5 dead MEQ. Without the Waaagh only 1.8 dead MEQ. So still slightly worse once per game, a lot worse the rest of the game.
You can't deny that they got better.
I will give you this, it got marginally better. Not enough to ever take one in anything but a fluffy for fun game, but yes it got MARGINALLY better. I will give you this one. This unit got marginally better.
3 dead MEQ instead of 1.8 is a 66% increase. Good thing the dakka jet is now just "marginally worse" than the storm talon which is considered decent for most marines and kills 4 MEQ a turn, which is just 33% more.
Yes Burnas did in fact get worse, the template basically made them useless because the only reason people took them in the first place was in Burna wagonz.
You are probably thinking about 5th. There were no burna wagons in 7th. Whenever the battlewagon would move more than 6" template weapons could not shoot from it. Which means you would have to drive within 8" of your opponent, wait a turn, hope your BW didn't get instant-killed by whatever because you are most likely exposed your rear armor. Then, next turn, your could drive yourself into flaming position and try killing something with that template - assuming anything worth flaming didn't just move away. Unless your opponent was a serious idiot or was completely unaware of what burnaz can do, this never worked.
Considering battlewagons can move 12" and now and have burnaz fire from it again, burna wagons actually got better - because 15 d3 hits is still better than none at all and a dead battlewagon. And it's not like you got more than 3 hits from their templates in 7th anyways.
They lost jink as well but gained 2 wounds YAY! nope. Still a loss in durability.
Jinking with koptas was usually 5+ because they could not go to ground and have no exhaust cloud. Against anything with AP-1 or less, they are more durable now, and only against weapons with AP-2 or better and at least 3 oder d6 damage they are only slightly less durable, because all those lascannons, melta and plasma weapons used to wound them on 2's instead of 3's. The kopa stood close to no chance to survive a squad of bolter marines, and anything that kills them easy now killed it easily as well last edition.
and their CC weapons you brag about are crap. one gives you 4attacks at S4 -1AP
2d3 S5 attacks at AP 0. You don't make a convincing argument if you can't even get the numbers right.
Previously they had a choppa and most likely S3. You can't argue that those didn't get better.
This unit got Worse by a lot.
So, in your opinion, what did the kopta do last edition, it can't do now? In actual games, not by just tossing numbers in the air without comparing them to anything.
The reason you think they got terrible because they are too expensive to be a suicide unit now, which is what they were used mostly for before. However, they now durable enough that they need a dedicated anti-tank shooting to remove, which is reflected in their points. Of course, this advantage is lost if you are fielding all boyz otherwise, but in my games with BW my opponents were struggling to remove them.
If rokkits weren't so badly overpriced, they were an awesome unit now.
So NOW they are awesome transports, and since boyz got better this edition that means they should be in them right? No, whoops there goes your whole point.
Whoops, mobs of 12 don't have the additional attack, no awesome moral, no buff characters and warpheads cannot use psychic powers from transports and the PK no longer . Mobs of 30 boyz got better. Mobs of 12 boyz are close to useless now.
And didn't you just argue that nobz got way better? Why aren't they riding trukkz in competitive lists?
Don't start moving goalposts now. Your argument was that all those units got worse, not that they got to a competitive level.
Say what you want, Trukkz are DRASTICALLY over priced. And the fact is that last edition people spammed them in tournament lists, and this edition you don't even see them in local tournaments.
They spammed MANz which happened to be riding trukks. Other than that trukks were useless deathtrapps. What you got for all other units wasn't even worth a single point.
T8 only when you use the "Ard Top" and by doing so you negate its open topped ability making it a giant transport and gun platform.
Open topped does not affect it's ability to transport in anyway - unlike in 7th. It's also free now.
I used to run 3 wagons in my Speed Freak list, I never had a problem with them, they usually didn't die until turn 3+ and usually because I had dropped the passengers off and no longer cared about them.
Good for you, my opponents actually did bring AP1 and 2 weapons that could penetrate AV12, resulting in an explosion half the time. What did they shoot those weapons at? Your jinking koptaz and bikes?
And I also used to field them with 4 Rokkitz and a Kannon for a grand total of 30pts because for 30pts I got 5 S8 shots.
Which were shooting snapshots at 6+ unless you chose to remain stationary. For slightly more than twice the points, you now get twice the fire power which is not a crater by turn 2. How exactly did that get worse?
Also, didn't you ever move your battlewagons flat out? How did you even reach your opponents?
I somehow doubt that you actually ever played a battlewagon like that in 7th.
And while you are right about Melta and such you seem to forget that they are now SIGNIFICANTLY more vulnerable to every type of weapon and can't hide behind cover with an AV14 front sticking out to negate most shooting.
That's not how the rules worked. As soon as anyone was in the AV12 arc he could shoot it, no matter which sides were visible. Anything that was able to move didn't shoot AV14, ever.
That it got significantly more vulnerable to any weapon is flat out wrong. Sure, bolter marines and have a 5% chance of wounding it from the sides and the front now, but they need to do it 18 times to kill a battlewagon. The only thing that got notably better at wounding battlewagons are S6/5 weapons with AP-1, but they have almost five times the wounds they had previously, which means four to five times the firepower needed to destroy, no matter what is shooting it. There is no way to for any realistic amount of firepower to kill the wagon faste than last edition.
The prices and durability also took a huge hit so the stats of those 2 guns might have gotten slightly better but the end result is still a worse platform. T7 3+ save to T5 5+ save is a huge nerf, and the old wording allowed artillery to take hits as if the Grots were T7 so you bought the extra grots and they were great as meat shields. This unit got worse.
The gun also has 6 wounds by itself and gets 5 gretchin for 10, for a total of 11 wounds, instead of the 6 it had previously. The mek gun itself now has as many wounds as the unit previously had.
Zzap guns didn't get better, they got different.
If adding causing mortal wounds to the enemy when it gets hot isn't a buff, I don't know what is.
If you field a unit of 6 and lose 2 on a leadership check of 5 you lose another model, on 6 you lost 2. That is a big deal. They also went up in cost again...which is mind boggling. Actually most price increases in the Index are mind boggling because most of the units were trash before so GW said "You know what will make them better? making them cost more points!"
Gotta love how you just willfully ignore the massive increase of wounds almost everywhere. T5 W5 3+ is a massive buff to survivability compared to AV11 HP2. Previously a single wave serpent could wipe out a unit of kanz on it's own. Killing two kanz now takes some serious firepower.
If you take your usual measurement for durability, which is being shot by a predator annihilator, you need over 200 points to kill a single kan on average, According to that, Kanz are tough as nails.
False, Jink saved my army more often then not in 7th. I played speed freak and had anywhere from 20-35 bikers on the table at any given time. Without Jink my army would have died turn 2 at the absolute latest because T5 4+ isn't hard to kill, but T5 with a 3+ Jink save or 2+ Jink save was money.
I guess you were the one player without tau, eldar and daemons in his meta then.
That is what I get for posting while intoxicated, simple stupid mistakes like the CC weapon on a DeffKoptas giving +1 strength not +1 AP.
Basically you and I will never agree, you somehow think Orkz are in a great place even though only 1 list is competitive and has started to decline a lot of late.
Im still only finding one competive list for eldar and it hinges on loading up with the 2 models/units that i own none of.
Wraithlords are my auto take because thats why i play eldar, no matter how they are played they will always drag my list into only casually good at best. Thats a problem because why can space marines feild dreadnaughts and do well but my wraithlords will only ever be meh.
Orks tore our whole club up in 7th (we had to tailor if we wanted a chance) im afraid to face them in 8th.
SemperMortis wrote: PKs and Killsaws stayed roughly the same price but they took a hit in regards to effectiveness, that -1 to hit is a huge deal.
Nobz were WS4 last edition, you were already hitting almost everything on 4+ except for stuff that didn't stand a chance in the first place. You also get to strike first with you PK now, and killsaws weren't even an option.
What the PK lost (and thus our entire army) is the ability to reliably handle vehicles.
Overall I think they are on the right track but they still are crap and actually got worse in their #1 role which was Close Combat and a platform for Skorchas. This unit got worse
Their number one role has always been wrecking stuff with mutliple PKs and a Waaagh! banner. They just sucked so bad that the only way they were used was cheap suicide skorchas.
Now do that math again for 7th edition. Best case 12 on a Waaagh!, 9 of those hit, 7.5 wound, 2.5 dead MEQ. Without the Waaagh only 1.8 dead MEQ. So still slightly worse once per game, a lot worse the rest of the game.
You can't deny that they got better.
I will give you this, it got marginally better. Not enough to ever take one in anything but a fluffy for fun game, but yes it got MARGINALLY better. I will give you this one. This unit got marginally better.
3 dead MEQ instead of 1.8 is a 66% increase. Good thing the dakka jet is now just "marginally worse" than the storm talon which is considered decent for most marines and kills 4 MEQ a turn, which is just 33% more.
Yes Burnas did in fact get worse, the template basically made them useless because the only reason people took them in the first place was in Burna wagonz.
You are probably thinking about 5th. There were no burna wagons in 7th. Whenever the battlewagon would move more than 6" template weapons could not shoot from it. Which means you would have to drive within 8" of your opponent, wait a turn, hope your BW didn't get instant-killed by whatever because you are most likely exposed your rear armor. Then, next turn, your could drive yourself into flaming position and try killing something with that template - assuming anything worth flaming didn't just move away. Unless your opponent was a serious idiot or was completely unaware of what burnaz can do, this never worked.
Considering battlewagons can move 12" and now and have burnaz fire from it again, burna wagons actually got better - because 15 d3 hits is still better than none at all and a dead battlewagon. And it's not like you got more than 3 hits from their templates in 7th anyways.
They lost jink as well but gained 2 wounds YAY! nope. Still a loss in durability.
Jinking with koptas was usually 5+ because they could not go to ground and have no exhaust cloud. Against anything with AP-1 or less, they are more durable now, and only against weapons with AP-2 or better and at least 3 oder d6 damage they are only slightly less durable, because all those lascannons, melta and plasma weapons used to wound them on 2's instead of 3's. The kopa stood close to no chance to survive a squad of bolter marines, and anything that kills them easy now killed it easily as well last edition.
and their CC weapons you brag about are crap. one gives you 4attacks at S4 -1AP
2d3 S5 attacks at AP 0. You don't make a convincing argument if you can't even get the numbers right.
Previously they had a choppa and most likely S3. You can't argue that those didn't get better.
This unit got Worse by a lot.
So, in your opinion, what did the kopta do last edition, it can't do now? In actual games, not by just tossing numbers in the air without comparing them to anything.
The reason you think they got terrible because they are too expensive to be a suicide unit now, which is what they were used mostly for before. However, they now durable enough that they need a dedicated anti-tank shooting to remove, which is reflected in their points. Of course, this advantage is lost if you are fielding all boyz otherwise, but in my games with BW my opponents were struggling to remove them.
If rokkits weren't so badly overpriced, they were an awesome unit now.
So NOW they are awesome transports, and since boyz got better this edition that means they should be in them right? No, whoops there goes your whole point.
Whoops, mobs of 12 don't have the additional attack, no awesome moral, no buff characters and warpheads cannot use psychic powers from transports and the PK no longer . Mobs of 30 boyz got better. Mobs of 12 boyz are close to useless now.
And didn't you just argue that nobz got way better? Why aren't they riding trukkz in competitive lists?
Don't start moving goalposts now. Your argument was that all those units got worse, not that they got to a competitive level.
Say what you want, Trukkz are DRASTICALLY over priced. And the fact is that last edition people spammed them in tournament lists, and this edition you don't even see them in local tournaments.
They spammed MANz which happened to be riding trukks. Other than that trukks were useless deathtrapps. What you got for all other units wasn't even worth a single point.
T8 only when you use the "Ard Top" and by doing so you negate its open topped ability making it a giant transport and gun platform.
Open topped does not affect it's ability to transport in anyway - unlike in 7th. It's also free now.
I used to run 3 wagons in my Speed Freak list, I never had a problem with them, they usually didn't die until turn 3+ and usually because I had dropped the passengers off and no longer cared about them.
Good for you, my opponents actually did bring AP1 and 2 weapons that could penetrate AV12, resulting in an explosion half the time. What did they shoot those weapons at? Your jinking koptaz and bikes?
And I also used to field them with 4 Rokkitz and a Kannon for a grand total of 30pts because for 30pts I got 5 S8 shots.
Which were shooting snapshots at 6+ unless you chose to remain stationary. For slightly more than twice the points, you now get twice the fire power which is not a crater by turn 2. How exactly did that get worse?
Also, didn't you ever move your battlewagons flat out? How did you even reach your opponents?
I somehow doubt that you actually ever played a battlewagon like that in 7th.
And while you are right about Melta and such you seem to forget that they are now SIGNIFICANTLY more vulnerable to every type of weapon and can't hide behind cover with an AV14 front sticking out to negate most shooting.
That's not how the rules worked. As soon as anyone was in the AV12 arc he could shoot it, no matter which sides were visible. Anything that was able to move didn't shoot AV14, ever.
That it got significantly more vulnerable to any weapon is flat out wrong. Sure, bolter marines and have a 5% chance of wounding it from the sides and the front now, but they need to do it 18 times to kill a battlewagon. The only thing that got notably better at wounding battlewagons are S6/5 weapons with AP-1, but they have almost five times the wounds they had previously, which means four to five times the firepower needed to destroy, no matter what is shooting it. There is no way to for any realistic amount of firepower to kill the wagon faste than last edition.
The prices and durability also took a huge hit so the stats of those 2 guns might have gotten slightly better but the end result is still a worse platform. T7 3+ save to T5 5+ save is a huge nerf, and the old wording allowed artillery to take hits as if the Grots were T7 so you bought the extra grots and they were great as meat shields. This unit got worse.
The gun also has 6 wounds by itself and gets 5 gretchin for 10, for a total of 11 wounds, instead of the 6 it had previously. The mek gun itself now has as many wounds as the unit previously had.
Zzap guns didn't get better, they got different.
If adding causing mortal wounds to the enemy when it gets hot isn't a buff, I don't know what is.
If you field a unit of 6 and lose 2 on a leadership check of 5 you lose another model, on 6 you lost 2. That is a big deal. They also went up in cost again...which is mind boggling. Actually most price increases in the Index are mind boggling because most of the units were trash before so GW said "You know what will make them better? making them cost more points!"
Gotta love how you just willfully ignore the massive increase of wounds almost everywhere. T5 W5 3+ is a massive buff to survivability compared to AV11 HP2. Previously a single wave serpent could wipe out a unit of kanz on it's own. Killing two kanz now takes some serious firepower.
If you take your usual measurement for durability, which is being shot by a predator annihilator, you need over 200 points to kill a single kan on average, According to that, Kanz are tough as nails.
False, Jink saved my army more often then not in 7th. I played speed freak and had anywhere from 20-35 bikers on the table at any given time. Without Jink my army would have died turn 2 at the absolute latest because T5 4+ isn't hard to kill, but T5 with a 3+ Jink save or 2+ Jink save was money.
I guess you were the one player without tau, eldar and daemons in his meta then.
That is what I get for posting while intoxicated, simple stupid mistakes like the CC weapon on a DeffKoptas giving +1 strength not +1 AP.
Basically you and I will never agree, you somehow think Orkz are in a great place even though only 1 list is competitive and has started to decline a lot of late.
Most armies have one competitive list. Admech have kastelan robot spam guard have conscript/scion's, assassins have an abomination of special characters culexus and Eversors. That is all you need to be competative expecting everything to be top tier just makes your faction overpowered. While the other ork stuff still works in casual
Most armies have one competitive list. Admech have kastelan robot spam guard have conscript/scion's, assassins have an abomination of special characters culexus and Eversors. That is all you need to be competative expecting everything to be top tier just makes your faction overpowered. While the other ork stuff still works in casual
The only thing competitive about it is that it is counter meta...a bit. Now though with IG being conscript spam and Chaos running hordes of demons it won't stay counter meta long, I am still waiting for new tournament results but I think its a fair assumption.
As for the rest of the index being good enough for casual? Yeah in the sense that if you don't care about having a shot in hell a lot of it is good. I tried playing a casual game with my old Speed Freakz army. 35 warbikers, who went from 630 without upgrades to 945pts without upgrades. My opponent brought his casual gunline army for SpeeseMehreens, no girlyman, no razorbacks with asscans and no flyers. He tabled my army by turn 3.
I brought my old Kan Wall Army, my opponent brought a casual list of IG. I surrendered turn 2 because he was able to destroy ALL my 12 Kanz and 2 Dreadz in 2 shooting phases even with a KFF Big Mek.
I am sorry to say that your opinion is very much wrong about the ork index, we have a handful (4ish) that are competitive and a host of options which arent worth fielding.
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vaurapung wrote: Im still only finding one competive list for eldar and it hinges on loading up with the 2 models/units that i own none of.
Wraithlords are my auto take because thats why i play eldar, no matter how they are played they will always drag my list into only casually good at best. Thats a problem because why can space marines feild dreadnaughts and do well but my wraithlords will only ever be meh.
Orks tore our whole club up in 7th (we had to tailor if we wanted a chance) im afraid to face them in 8th.
No offense but that is a problem with your club and not the Ork Army. Orkz were universally considered bottom tier. If they were "tearing it up in 7th" then your ork player is either a tactical genius or you guys aren't especially good. I am not trying to be insulting but we have 3 years of batreps and tournament results to prove that point.
SemperMortis wrote: Basically you and I will never agree, you somehow think Orkz are in a great place even though only 1 list is competitive and has started to decline a lot of late.
I can agree to disagree. However, I'd like to point out that this thread is about whether orks got better, not about orks are competitive.
I agree mostly with your assessment of orks for competitive plays in tournaments or against highly competitive players.
The thing is, In 7th there was little point to fielding orks in even casual games or campaings. If you wanted to play a fun game (a game you lose without being tabled by turn 3), you needed to ask your opponent to tailor his list to be below average. This has improved by a lot.
Most units you consider garbage and unfieldable have worked well for me against armies that are not top tournament material, but still pretty well built.
SemperMortis wrote: PKs and Killsaws stayed roughly the same price but they took a hit in regards to effectiveness, that -1 to hit is a huge deal.
Nobz were WS4 last edition, you were already hitting almost everything on 4+ except for stuff that didn't stand a chance in the first place. You also get to strike first with you PK now, and killsaws weren't even an option.
What the PK lost (and thus our entire army) is the ability to reliably handle vehicles.
Overall I think they are on the right track but they still are crap and actually got worse in their #1 role which was Close Combat and a platform for Skorchas. This unit got worse
Their number one role has always been wrecking stuff with mutliple PKs and a Waaagh! banner. They just sucked so bad that the only way they were used was cheap suicide skorchas.
Now do that math again for 7th edition. Best case 12 on a Waaagh!, 9 of those hit, 7.5 wound, 2.5 dead MEQ. Without the Waaagh only 1.8 dead MEQ. So still slightly worse once per game, a lot worse the rest of the game.
You can't deny that they got better.
I will give you this, it got marginally better. Not enough to ever take one in anything but a fluffy for fun game, but yes it got MARGINALLY better. I will give you this one. This unit got marginally better.
3 dead MEQ instead of 1.8 is a 66% increase. Good thing the dakka jet is now just "marginally worse" than the storm talon which is considered decent for most marines and kills 4 MEQ a turn, which is just 33% more.
Yes Burnas did in fact get worse, the template basically made them useless because the only reason people took them in the first place was in Burna wagonz.
You are probably thinking about 5th. There were no burna wagons in 7th. Whenever the battlewagon would move more than 6" template weapons could not shoot from it. Which means you would have to drive within 8" of your opponent, wait a turn, hope your BW didn't get instant-killed by whatever because you are most likely exposed your rear armor. Then, next turn, your could drive yourself into flaming position and try killing something with that template - assuming anything worth flaming didn't just move away. Unless your opponent was a serious idiot or was completely unaware of what burnaz can do, this never worked.
Considering battlewagons can move 12" and now and have burnaz fire from it again, burna wagons actually got better - because 15 d3 hits is still better than none at all and a dead battlewagon. And it's not like you got more than 3 hits from their templates in 7th anyways.
They lost jink as well but gained 2 wounds YAY! nope. Still a loss in durability.
Jinking with koptas was usually 5+ because they could not go to ground and have no exhaust cloud. Against anything with AP-1 or less, they are more durable now, and only against weapons with AP-2 or better and at least 3 oder d6 damage they are only slightly less durable, because all those lascannons, melta and plasma weapons used to wound them on 2's instead of 3's. The kopa stood close to no chance to survive a squad of bolter marines, and anything that kills them easy now killed it easily as well last edition.
and their CC weapons you brag about are crap. one gives you 4attacks at S4 -1AP
2d3 S5 attacks at AP 0. You don't make a convincing argument if you can't even get the numbers right.
Previously they had a choppa and most likely S3. You can't argue that those didn't get better.
This unit got Worse by a lot.
So, in your opinion, what did the kopta do last edition, it can't do now? In actual games, not by just tossing numbers in the air without comparing them to anything.
The reason you think they got terrible because they are too expensive to be a suicide unit now, which is what they were used mostly for before. However, they now durable enough that they need a dedicated anti-tank shooting to remove, which is reflected in their points. Of course, this advantage is lost if you are fielding all boyz otherwise, but in my games with BW my opponents were struggling to remove them.
If rokkits weren't so badly overpriced, they were an awesome unit now.
So NOW they are awesome transports, and since boyz got better this edition that means they should be in them right? No, whoops there goes your whole point.
Whoops, mobs of 12 don't have the additional attack, no awesome moral, no buff characters and warpheads cannot use psychic powers from transports and the PK no longer . Mobs of 30 boyz got better. Mobs of 12 boyz are close to useless now.
And didn't you just argue that nobz got way better? Why aren't they riding trukkz in competitive lists?
Don't start moving goalposts now. Your argument was that all those units got worse, not that they got to a competitive level.
Say what you want, Trukkz are DRASTICALLY over priced. And the fact is that last edition people spammed them in tournament lists, and this edition you don't even see them in local tournaments.
They spammed MANz which happened to be riding trukks. Other than that trukks were useless deathtrapps. What you got for all other units wasn't even worth a single point.
T8 only when you use the "Ard Top" and by doing so you negate its open topped ability making it a giant transport and gun platform.
Open topped does not affect it's ability to transport in anyway - unlike in 7th. It's also free now.
I used to run 3 wagons in my Speed Freak list, I never had a problem with them, they usually didn't die until turn 3+ and usually because I had dropped the passengers off and no longer cared about them.
Good for you, my opponents actually did bring AP1 and 2 weapons that could penetrate AV12, resulting in an explosion half the time. What did they shoot those weapons at? Your jinking koptaz and bikes?
And I also used to field them with 4 Rokkitz and a Kannon for a grand total of 30pts because for 30pts I got 5 S8 shots.
Which were shooting snapshots at 6+ unless you chose to remain stationary. For slightly more than twice the points, you now get twice the fire power which is not a crater by turn 2. How exactly did that get worse?
Also, didn't you ever move your battlewagons flat out? How did you even reach your opponents?
I somehow doubt that you actually ever played a battlewagon like that in 7th.
And while you are right about Melta and such you seem to forget that they are now SIGNIFICANTLY more vulnerable to every type of weapon and can't hide behind cover with an AV14 front sticking out to negate most shooting.
That's not how the rules worked. As soon as anyone was in the AV12 arc he could shoot it, no matter which sides were visible. Anything that was able to move didn't shoot AV14, ever.
That it got significantly more vulnerable to any weapon is flat out wrong. Sure, bolter marines and have a 5% chance of wounding it from the sides and the front now, but they need to do it 18 times to kill a battlewagon. The only thing that got notably better at wounding battlewagons are S6/5 weapons with AP-1, but they have almost five times the wounds they had previously, which means four to five times the firepower needed to destroy, no matter what is shooting it. There is no way to for any realistic amount of firepower to kill the wagon faste than last edition.
The prices and durability also took a huge hit so the stats of those 2 guns might have gotten slightly better but the end result is still a worse platform. T7 3+ save to T5 5+ save is a huge nerf, and the old wording allowed artillery to take hits as if the Grots were T7 so you bought the extra grots and they were great as meat shields. This unit got worse.
The gun also has 6 wounds by itself and gets 5 gretchin for 10, for a total of 11 wounds, instead of the 6 it had previously. The mek gun itself now has as many wounds as the unit previously had.
Zzap guns didn't get better, they got different.
If adding causing mortal wounds to the enemy when it gets hot isn't a buff, I don't know what is.
If you field a unit of 6 and lose 2 on a leadership check of 5 you lose another model, on 6 you lost 2. That is a big deal. They also went up in cost again...which is mind boggling. Actually most price increases in the Index are mind boggling because most of the units were trash before so GW said "You know what will make them better? making them cost more points!"
Gotta love how you just willfully ignore the massive increase of wounds almost everywhere. T5 W5 3+ is a massive buff to survivability compared to AV11 HP2. Previously a single wave serpent could wipe out a unit of kanz on it's own. Killing two kanz now takes some serious firepower.
If you take your usual measurement for durability, which is being shot by a predator annihilator, you need over 200 points to kill a single kan on average, According to that, Kanz are tough as nails.
False, Jink saved my army more often then not in 7th. I played speed freak and had anywhere from 20-35 bikers on the table at any given time. Without Jink my army would have died turn 2 at the absolute latest because T5 4+ isn't hard to kill, but T5 with a 3+ Jink save or 2+ Jink save was money.
I guess you were the one player without tau, eldar and daemons in his meta then.
That is what I get for posting while intoxicated, simple stupid mistakes like the CC weapon on a DeffKoptas giving +1 strength not +1 AP.
Basically you and I will never agree, you somehow think Orkz are in a great place even though only 1 list is competitive and has started to decline a lot of late.
I think he, and everyone else here thinks they are in a better place than 7th.
They now have a competitive build that can win tournaments, didnt have that in 7th. They are definetly not bottom of the barrel like 7th
deltaKshatriya wrote: So as the title implies, what are the best armies of this edition? What are the worst? Which ones benefitted the most? Which ones really got the bad end of the deal?
So far I've only played 2 non-competitive games. My first game was Imperial Guard vs Orcs at 35 power. The match was really close, although, in the end, my opponent won, possibly because I'm still not sure how 8th edition has changed up things.
My second game was Necrons vs Imperial Fists, also at 35 power. I played Necrons and completely tabled the Fists. The only losses I took were some warriors in a squad.
As far as I can tell, the armies seem to be much more balanced than before, but some armies have more advantages.
Tau seems to be unhappy, so I guess they got nerfed some. I play Nids, and I think they did pretty good by us. We are reasonably ballenced, and have multiple viable builds.
So far AM seems to have gotten the best deal, they went from "Meh" to "Woah!"
I think he, and everyone else here thinks they are in a better place than 7th.
They now have a competitive build that can win tournaments, didnt have that in 7th. They are definetly not bottom of the barrel like 7th
From a "Did they get better stand point" I will say some units got better, but a number of units got significantly worse, mostly because of pricing. warbikers and Meganobz are basically unusable at the moment; As are a number of other units that were considered decent last edition.
From a competitive standpoint, they got better, marginally and very situational at best. in the ITC rankings the top ork player is ranked 103 atm, which is almost exactly what last years ITC had orkz rated. John McCool was the highest ranked Ork player at 113th place.
So we got 10 spots better, but its not the end of the year so who knows
My point is that if Orks got better in the tournament scene which the data tells us they did....marginally, then they suffered for it by having the rest of their army become complete trash. You had Ork players bringing Stompas to tournaments last year, this year? 900+pts for a stompa? yeah not going to happen. Overall the Index took a hit, its just that our 1 competitive build is doing ok because it maximizes a type of unit. A SM player who brings lascannons against an Ork Horde is not going to do as well as a SM player who brought a few Stormravens or some Asscan Razorbacks.
U02dah4 wrote: I love the way on dakka everything is competitive and OMG so broken or complete trash and not worth taking
There is middle ground
Not true at all, Last edition I had several tournaments and For Fun Games where I took Warbikers and Killa Kanz even though they clearly weren't competitive but weren't complete trash either. The Kanz actually might have been trash but i loved them and used them anyway. My Battlewagons were also not trash but not competitive and i used them as well. Basically this current iteration of the Ork "Codex" is all or nothing, we have a handful of mildly competitive choices and a host of garbage. We do have some units that might be considered meh but not nearly as many as last edition.
Orcs are by far one of the most improved armies at the moment. Its laughable someone is honestly trying to say they are in a bad spot right now
Orks are only good if you take a Green Tide, 120-150 Boyz list, and if your opponent doesn't take armored vehicles (yeah, right).
Outside of that, they are simply trash - they have no good options when it comes to shooting, vehicles, or anti-armor/flyer.
I'm sorry, just because they have one viable list and playstyle does not a good army make - I'm glad they got something, but let's be realistic with where we think they fall on the power scale.
Orks are number 1 or number 2 best smite spam army in the game. You can take a whole chunk of wierdboyz and a handful of painboyz to pat them on the back whenever they blow something up and surround them with the tide. You will smite off everything and anything your boyz can't simply crump
Orcs are by far one of the most improved armies at the moment. Its laughable someone is honestly trying to say they are in a bad spot right now
Orks are only good if you take a Green Tide, 120-150 Boyz list, and if your opponent doesn't take armored vehicles (yeah, right).
Outside of that, they are simply trash - they have no good options when it comes to shooting, vehicles, or anti-armor/flyer.
I'm sorry, just because they have one viable list and playstyle does not a good army make - I'm glad they got something, but let's be realistic with where we think they fall on the power scale.
Orks are number 1 or number 2 best smite spam army in the game. You can take a whole chunk of wierdboyz and a handful of painboyz to pat them on the back whenever they blow something up and surround them with the tide. You will smite off everything and anything your boyz can't simply crump
Definitely not #1 but they are decent. But you aren't going to see a competitive smite spam list for Orkz. They are relatively inexpensive but have no delivery method worth mentioning beyond transports so you are going to use them to support Boyz not to be the primary. SO again it boils down to Green Tide with supporting elements.
Grey knights looked amazing...until I read the matched play rules. Without them GK would be charging out of deepstrike with their entire army after casting about 10 vortex of dooms/purge souls.
As it stands, I think they got a little better.
Something that should be pointed out is that due to the insistence on 2000 point armies, players play very few matches at tournaments. Thus, a competitive list is not the list that has the highest win rate, but the highest 100% win rate.
The solution to this is simple: reduce the point count to ~1000, reduce the battle round count, maybe even apply a more stringent time cap. If people are concerned about people not buying models or whatever, have them bring multiple armies or let them bring 2000 points but deploy no more than 1000 of it.
My Khorne daemons have become unplayable. I am running world eaters pure CSM now, when I came from daemonkin where most of my army were daemons.
Bloodletters => not worth there cost if you are not summoning. They lost there deep strike what renders them unplayable.
Flesh hounds => Not worth there cost as they are now. They can no longer take the battlefield role they had with KDK, and in small squads they do not have enough punch to be a great disturbance.
Bloodthirsters => became pushovers (they get shot away to fast and they are not even among the really hard hitters in CC)
Bloodcrushers became okay, but not great.
skulltaker became playable, if you play him not fluffy (in the back with the skull canons)
Skull canons are way more unreliable then they used to be.
Soulgrinder is way to unreliable for its pts cost.
The only model I see myself playing , is the herald on juggernaut as a +1S buff between my maulerfiends, blood slaughterers and DP , as he is fast enough to do so. The rest of my khorne daemons is packed with my AOS stuff where they are still good.
For other armies the winners I have seen so far are:
IG, officio assasinorum, tyranids, and sorry guys, Orks. All these armies are performing way better and bring a challenging game to the table where they could not last edition. IG has even become a bit OP.
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