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Conscript spam, with scion command squads and tempestus primes, plus the various artillery pieces seems to be the general consensus.

I think the problem with this is its not a straight line within armies it's also about how you choose to play it.

AM - Infantry massive boost from the change to armour saves and plasma. Elite vehicle's good but their are better in an all imperium list eg dunecrawlers baal predator's

SM - Weakened by armour changes. Guilliman smurf elite vehicles really strong till chapter approved is released but reliant on going first needs to wipe your opponent countered by massed infantry which it can't wipe. Salamander tacs with Las cannons really effective AV possible strong msu don't run primaris.

BA nice as a sideboard DC is strong but limted by only one lemartes, baal predators are a great counter to infantry spam lists but in most circumstances your better off with SM

SW/DA uninspireing - no wolfstar need codexs

GK either dread knight spam list or single undersized unit deepstrikeing justicar as a sideboard choice. Same problems they always had nice but too expensive compared to SM

ORK really strong but it's all about the hoard don't like the hoard don't play orks

Skittarii infantry are more survivable but the loss of armywide scout and crusader on skittarii means they are relegated to bubble wrap which conscripts do better for me it destroys the theme of the skittarii only army. In addition the HQ are insanely expensive and you must take them. Dunecrawlers are houses though combined with admech

Admech naf apart from kastellan robot spam

Ik weaker than before but still strong like guilliman spam needs to go first to win however it is going to suffer heavily from chapter approved change to how first turn is selected as currently knights get first turn due to fewer drops. Also admech/Ik army no longer exists properly to the detriment of both.

Sister of battle cheaper but maybe not cheap enough definitely better though

Assassins great choices definitely better

Talons - custodes pretty but pants still pretty but pants. Sisters was neich role but viable if underutilised in practice now pants

Fortifications overpriced except maybe vsg

Tau the problem tau face are the players. They fuss endlessly that their army has been nurfed and the suits don't work because they want to be shooty. Newsflash tau don't shoot anymore sure commanders are ok but you want to run a shoot list join the imperium it's more effective. However a hoard spam list of kroot, kroot hounds, vespids and krootshapers guided by etherals is nuts but no one owns the models because they were bad last time. (Note yes 10 kroot will just get shot 18+ units of kroot at 180 models don't go down as easy)

Chaos loss of daemon summoning made then boring just another army without its distinctive way of working. Not saying ineffective. Cos horrors are.... horribly good but why would you not use horrors well unless you like the art in which case tactics arnt your thing

Csm most of the problems that sm have with no giulliman

Tyranids like orks on the rise due to hoards

Ynnarii weakened but jury's out on eldar/DE

Anyone who ran multI combination army's eg taudar or sm/ cd gw is giving you the finger

Inquisition all your units are bad -wait no you have 1 good unit with 3w ha ha we tricked you and you lose half your weapons most of your equipment your monkeys dont work and your double the guard in pts. Basically gw really hate the inquisition

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
Nids became a Top Tier Army IMO

Orks became a mid tier army because their melee seems to have improved with extra choppa attacks

umm they always had three attacks because 2 base and 1 for double ccw weapon. So that didnt change. What did change is being able to run and charge every turn (as long as warboss is nearby) and becoming str 4 base (which was LONG overdue), and the increase to weapon skill (90% of the time before 8th we would hit on 4+...now its 3+). Combine with mob rule actually benefiting them instead of hurting them.

Thats why boyz are great. Almost every army special rule, and 8th edition change directly benefited boyz the most. (waaagghh! banner, ere we go rule to re roll charges..)

My two cents for the armies im aquainted with so far.

Eldar have nothing real special so far unless you play hemlocks and ynnari. Our weapons are over priced compared to those of other armies and come one flimsier platforms. Wraithgaurd/blades were way boosted. Wraithlords are still in that strange spot, looks good on paper but bad when used. Elites are still the same, made to do one job each. Troops are still too short ranged compared to other armies.

Necrons living metal and quantum sheilding are crazy good, tank busters cant scratch them but boltguns can if you have enough shots to throw at it. Warriors just dont die enough when the cryptek and ghost ark are there plus a 24inch -1ap standard weapon is nothing to be ashamed of. Played right and they win the end game.

Tryanids, ive watched our local players nothing but struggle with playing nids in 8th. Termagaunts can only do so much and carnefexs are in the same sticky boat as my wraithlords. Definitely though nids have some synergies on paper but figureing out how to use them looks almost overwhelming.

I wish the codexes would have been released all together though. This stagered release makes no sense.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
Nids became a Top Tier Army IMO

Orks became a mid tier army because their melee seems to have improved with extra choppa attacks

umm they always had three attacks because 2 base and 1 for double ccw weapon. So that didnt change. What did change is being able to run and charge every turn (as long as warboss is nearby) and becoming str 4 base (which was LONG overdue), and the increase to weapon skill (90% of the time before 8th we would hit on 4+...now its 3+). Combine with mob rule actually benefiting them instead of hurting them.

Thats why boyz are great. Almost every army special rule, and 8th edition change directly benefited boyz the most. (waaagghh! banner, ere we go rule to re roll charges..)

This is how I interpret the Additional Attack(s) with Choppas.

Boss Zagstrukk has 6 attacks. If he uses his choppa for all 6 attacks, he gets 12 attacks because he is fighting with his choppa and gets 1 additional attack with each strike.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
Nids became a Top Tier Army IMO

Orks became a mid tier army because their melee seems to have improved with extra choppa attacks

umm they always had three attacks because 2 base and 1 for double ccw weapon. So that didnt change. What did change is being able to run and charge every turn (as long as warboss is nearby) and becoming str 4 base (which was LONG overdue), and the increase to weapon skill (90% of the time before 8th we would hit on 4+...now its 3+). Combine with mob rule actually benefiting them instead of hurting them.

Thats why boyz are great. Almost every army special rule, and 8th edition change directly benefited boyz the most. (waaagghh! banner, ere we go rule to re roll charges..)

This is how I interpret the Additional Attack(s) with Choppas.

Boss Zagstrukk has 6 attacks. If he uses his choppa for all 6 attacks, he gets 12 attacks because he is fighting with his choppa and gets 1 additional attack with each strike.

You..."interpret" it wrong then. The exact wording of the rule is "Each time the bearer fights, it may make 1 additional attack with this weapon." Where and how do you get to "1 additional attack WITH EACH STRIKE?"

As a note, when talking competitive, Tau are one of the very best armies out there.

But when considering more casual play, the tau drop in the trash.

Tau have 1 ridiculously strong build basis (commander spam) and not utilizing it makes the tau extremely weak. It's the only faction that has this complete lack of middle ground.

"Tau are not a shooty race"

Um, do you know anything about the Tau from a fluff / lore perspective or from editions past? Tau are weak at shooting, weak at CC, and have no psychic phase. Spamming kroot and vespid is our strategy now? Sounds like what every Tau player signed up for!

the_scotsman wrote:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
Nids became a Top Tier Army IMO

Orks became a mid tier army because their melee seems to have improved with extra choppa attacks

umm they always had three attacks because 2 base and 1 for double ccw weapon. So that didnt change. What did change is being able to run and charge every turn (as long as warboss is nearby) and becoming str 4 base (which was LONG overdue), and the increase to weapon skill (90% of the time before 8th we would hit on 4+...now its 3+). Combine with mob rule actually benefiting them instead of hurting them.

Thats why boyz are great. Almost every army special rule, and 8th edition change directly benefited boyz the most. (waaagghh! banner, ere we go rule to re roll charges..)

This is how I interpret the Additional Attack(s) with Choppas.

Boss Zagstrukk has 6 attacks. If he uses his choppa for all 6 attacks, he gets 12 attacks because he is fighting with his choppa and gets 1 additional attack with each strike.

You..."interpret" it wrong then. The exact wording of the rule is "Each time the bearer fights, it may make 1 additional attack with this weapon." Where and how do you get to "1 additional attack WITH EACH STRIKE?"

I interpret it as follows

Boss Zagstrukk has 6 attacks. He fights with the choppa 6 times, and gets 1 additional attack with each regular attack. 6 times 2 is 12, thus he gets 12 attacks with the choppa.

U02dah4 wrote:
Tau the problem tau face are the players. They fuss endlessly that their army has been nurfed and the suits don't work because they want to be shooty. Newsflash tau don't shoot anymore sure commanders are ok but you want to run a shoot list join the imperium it's more effective. However a hoard spam list of kroot, kroot hounds, vespids and krootshapers guided by etherals is nuts but no one owns the models because they were bad last time. (Note yes 10 kroot will just get shot 18+ units of kroot at 180 models don't go down as easy)

Kroot are BS+4, S3, T3, 6+Save for 6 points
Basic Guardsman are BS+4, S3, T3, 5+Save for 4 points

You're suggesting that Tau players Spam a unit that is worse than a Basic Guardsman...

Kroot are ws3
Conscripts are ws5
I'm suggesting tau players are the problem as they are stuck in shoot mode - as evidenced by a BS comparison on a CC unit- give up on shooting and recognise they are a cc army

Also I'm not saying they are the best CC army but they pretty effective especially with the buffs from the kroot shaper

Also if you pick almost any tau unit you will be able to find an imperium unit that does the same role more cost effectively it's why your better of switching army if you want to sit and shoot

 Talamare wrote:

Kroot are BS+4, S3, T3, 6+Save for 6 points
Basic Guardsman are BS+4, S3, T3, 5+Save for 4 points

You're suggesting that Tau players Spam a unit that is worse than a Basic Guardsman...

Basic Guardsman are M6" WS4+ BS+4, S3, T3, 5+Save and have S3 guns for 4 points
Kroot are M7" WS3+ BS+4, S3, T3, 6+Save, have S4 guns, are S4 in melee and can make a 7" move before the game begins for 6 points

I don't know if the extra stuff is worth paying 2 more points per model, but it seems rather disingenuous to just ignore all the ways in which Kroot exceed guardsmen.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:

I interpret it as follows

Boss Zagstrukk has 6 attacks. He fights with the choppa 6 times, and gets 1 additional attack with each regular attack. 6 times 2 is 12, thus he gets 12 attacks with the choppa.

That's still wrong. You are willfully interpreting it incorrectly. It has already been posted in regards to how it actually works.

That 1" move and the initial +7m is crucial for closing the gap and once in CC that infantry squad is in trouble. And +1's on shots adds 16% to success vs most infantry.


The other thing to consider is that it's rare to see a vanilla infantry squad mine tend to come in at 56pts so I don't see as a 2pt per model gap I see it as a 0.4 pt per model gap and yes that infantry squad gets a plasma gun but since everything you run has 1w and almost no armour you negate it's value.

Farseer_V2 wrote:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:

I interpret it as follows

Boss Zagstrukk has 6 attacks. He fights with the choppa 6 times, and gets 1 additional attack with each regular attack. 6 times 2 is 12, thus he gets 12 attacks with the choppa.

That's still wrong. You are willfully interpreting it incorrectly. It has already been posted in regards to how it actually works.

Yeah. He fights once, making 6 attacks. Then gets an extra attack when he does that one fight. 7 attacks.

Jacksmiles wrote:

Farseer_V2 wrote:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:

I interpret it as follows

Boss Zagstrukk has 6 attacks. He fights with the choppa 6 times, and gets 1 additional attack with each regular attack. 6 times 2 is 12, thus he gets 12 attacks with the choppa.

That's still wrong. You are willfully interpreting it incorrectly. It has already been posted in regards to how it actually works.

Yeah. He fights once, making 6 attacks. Then gets an extra attack when he does that one fight. 7 attacks.

Got it now! Thanks!

malcontent999 wrote:
Orks took a big hit. The loss of blast and templates means that 5+ ballistic skill really hurts. Plus no more ard boys and special rules for bikers. And red ones don't go faster..

Orks are a good candidate for 'best improved' army of 8th edition...

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
"Tau are not a shooty race"

Um, do you know anything about the Tau from a fluff / lore perspective or from editions past? Tau are weak at shooting, weak at CC, and have no psychic phase. Spamming kroot and vespid is our strategy now? Sounds like what every Tau player signed up for!

I just.... told you how the tau are a top tier competitive army. And then you go "Derp shuld spam vespids". No, spam commanders and some drones. HAve a few pathfinders and FW as support. Win.

stratigo wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
"Tau are not a shooty race"

Um, do you know anything about the Tau from a fluff / lore perspective or from editions past? Tau are weak at shooting, weak at CC, and have no psychic phase. Spamming kroot and vespid is our strategy now? Sounds like what every Tau player signed up for!

I just.... told you how the tau are a top tier competitive army. And then you go "Derp shuld spam vespids". No, spam commanders and some drones. HAve a few pathfinders and FW as support. Win.

Derp, spam commanders til you win, Tau are a top-tier army.

One spammy build doesn't mean the units and army are fine, because they're not. Commander spam is not what Tau has ever been about, neither on the tabletop or fluff. Even disregarding that, most of the Tau army is overpointed or ineffective (Riptides, Stormsurge, Broadsides, Hammerhead, literally none of these belong in any kind of competitive list). They're also not "pretty effective" in close combat either. What Tau unit would you actually WANT in close combat as opposed to shooting?

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
"Tau are not a shooty race"

Um, do you know anything about the Tau from a fluff / lore perspective or from editions past? Tau are weak at shooting, weak at CC, and have no psychic phase. Spamming kroot and vespid is our strategy now? Sounds like what every Tau player signed up for!

I just.... told you how the tau are a top tier competitive army. And then you go "Derp shuld spam vespids". No, spam commanders and some drones. HAve a few pathfinders and FW as support. Win.

Derp, spam commanders til you win, Tau are a top-tier army.

One spammy build doesn't mean the units and army are fine, because they're not. Commander spam is not what Tau has ever been about, neither on the tabletop or fluff. Even disregarding that, most of the Tau army is overpointed or ineffective (Riptides, Stormsurge, Broadsides, Hammerhead, literally none of these belong in any kind of competitive list). They're also not "pretty effective" in close combat either. What Tau unit would you actually WANT in close combat as opposed to shooting?

Tau commanders are pretty effective in close combat. Enough so that you wouldn't hesitate to send a few unit to degraded units.

They're not specialists, but they do alright. And they leave combat and shoot anyways.

Spamming the most effective units is the competitive meta, so, uh, tau are in the same boat there.

But yes I did note, in my post, that the tau have no middle tier.

But even if they made a lot of tau units better, the competitive list would still be all tau commanders, unless GW had a stroke and made a unit better than commanders. Then you'd see half a dozen to a dozen of that unit instead (riptides in 7th anyone?)

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
"Tau are not a shooty race"

Um, do you know anything about the Tau from a fluff / lore perspective or from editions past? Tau are weak at shooting, weak at CC, and have no psychic phase. Spamming kroot and vespid is our strategy now? Sounds like what every Tau player signed up for!

I just.... told you how the tau are a top tier competitive army. And then you go "Derp shuld spam vespids". No, spam commanders and some drones. HAve a few pathfinders and FW as support. Win.

Derp, spam commanders til you win, Tau are a top-tier army.

One spammy build doesn't mean the units and army are fine, because they're not. Commander spam is not what Tau has ever been about, neither on the tabletop or fluff. Even disregarding that, most of the Tau army is overpointed or ineffective (Riptides, Stormsurge, Broadsides, Hammerhead, literally none of these belong in any kind of competitive list). They're also not "pretty effective" in close combat either. What Tau unit would you actually WANT in close combat as opposed to shooting?

Kroot, kroot hounds, kroot shapers?

Also commanders while the best shooty tau unit are not that good compared to the imperium list just the best the tau have availiable

Daemons have changed quite a bit. Tzeentch is the only god that really got the nurf stick in 8th edition -- the rest of the gods got much better.
They are still not a top tier army. They just cannot compete with 200+ guard models using 30+ mortars.

Tzeentch
The armies of change has taken a big hit. The army is no longer summoning 1000+ points in extra models each game.
Tzeentch is still good. Brimstones plus the Changling is still one of the best combos in the game.
Herald spam or DPs can do a good amount of damage.
The greater daemons have taken a hit. The LoC just is not all that deadly for his point cost.

Khorne
The blood god is still underwhelming. Sure, the units hit like a truck, but they are a glass cannon and explode when looked at.
Bloodletters just got a point reduction, which is nice.
Bloodcrushers are still fast and deadly.
The greater daemon is fast enough to get into assault, but cannot stand up 10+ LCs or deep striking plasma squads.
Overally Khorne is not in a good place, and people are searching for a way to make it work.

Nurgle
Nurgle has improved dramatically with 8th edition. While Nurgle armies still suffer on damage output, their ability to squad and hold objectives is fantastic.
Plaguebearers and Nurglings are fantastic troops.
The greater daemons are good as they are cheap enough to be viable, and durable enough to take some hits. I've had tremendous success with my GUO.
Plague drones are also good, and I've destroyed many flyers with them.
There is great synergy with death guard.

Slaanesh
Slaanesh suffers from some of the same flaws that Khorne does -- but at least Slaanesh is fast enough to get into combat on turn one-two.
Daemonettes got a nice price drop with the CSM codex. Now fielding 30 of them only runs you 220 points.
Their greater daemon is fantastic. The KoS is fast, cheap, and death to most things it touches.
Heralds in seeker chariots are boss.

stratigo wrote:
As a note, when talking competitive, Tau are one of the very best armies out there.

But when considering more casual play, the tau drop in the trash.

Tau have 1 ridiculously strong build basis (commander spam) and not utilizing it makes the tau extremely weak. It's the only faction that has this complete lack of middle ground.

Also to the person above who said Kroot spam I proxied it and they die easy to leadership shenanigans. There are a lot of pro players out there better than you who've tried this stuff. They only did as good as they did because of commander spam! Also GW recognised out complaints apparently since Reece is sulking on the last signals I seen. They are going to be reducing the Riptide in price and most likely increasing commander price from what he said. Heck it sounds like a large overhaul. When these changes will appear is unknown. There are rumours the Tau dex could drop around october, but honestly I doubt it. We'll likely have to wait until next year.

It's the Tau haters out there who made it seem like Tau were some sort of unstoppable iWin codex last edition that has seen us get so gak on with balance this edition. Well I guess all I can say now is your going to have to "get good". That's what the IoM player told me when 8th came out. Tau haters over hyped the OPness of the army way too much and now GW is realising it. Your once again going to have to learn that running dead straight at Tau with no cover is not a good idea and never will be.

In responce to "Also to the person above who said Kroot spam I proxied it and they die easy to leadership shenanigans. There are a lot of pro players out there better than you who've tried this stuff. They only did as good as they did because of commander spam!"

Without seeing your list I can't comment. I would certainly have expected you to suffer some moral losses that's why you take 18 + kroot units. Supported by the hounds and vespids. However since you have LD 9 I'm surprised they were that terrible.

Note I'm assuming since you are talking about a pure CC list & since your HQ were all ethereal's and you dropped a model back from each kroot squad for the LD 9 and FNP to help them survive to combat.

vaurapung wrote:
I wish the codexes would have been released all together though. This stagered release makes no sense.

It makes sense financially. GW can only print so many books at once so they have to do the armies one at a time. Plus it keeps interest high. People who have multiple armies might not have the cash to buy all the books they need in one hit but spread them out 1-2 a month and people will buy them.

Nothing to do with fairness, just the practicalities of cold, hard cash.

U02dah4 wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
"Tau are not a shooty race"

Um, do you know anything about the Tau from a fluff / lore perspective or from editions past? Tau are weak at shooting, weak at CC, and have no psychic phase. Spamming kroot and vespid is our strategy now? Sounds like what every Tau player signed up for!

I just.... told you how the tau are a top tier competitive army. And then you go "Derp shuld spam vespids". No, spam commanders and some drones. HAve a few pathfinders and FW as support. Win.

Derp, spam commanders til you win, Tau are a top-tier army.

One spammy build doesn't mean the units and army are fine, because they're not. Commander spam is not what Tau has ever been about, neither on the tabletop or fluff. Even disregarding that, most of the Tau army is overpointed or ineffective (Riptides, Stormsurge, Broadsides, Hammerhead, literally none of these belong in any kind of competitive list). They're also not "pretty effective" in close combat either. What Tau unit would you actually WANT in close combat as opposed to shooting?

Kroot, kroot hounds, kroot shapers?

Also commanders while the best shooty tau unit are not that good compared to the imperium list just the best the tau have availiable

They're the best almost anyone has available. Conscript based AM core armies are literally the best in the game right now

And the reason tau struggle isn't cause they get shot off the board, as they don't, but because the am player parks multiple 50 man squads on objectives and you can't kill them fast enough

stratigo wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
"Tau are not a shooty race"

Um, do you know anything about the Tau from a fluff / lore perspective or from editions past? Tau are weak at shooting, weak at CC, and have no psychic phase. Spamming kroot and vespid is our strategy now? Sounds like what every Tau player signed up for!

I just.... told you how the tau are a top tier competitive army. And then you go "Derp shuld spam vespids". No, spam commanders and some drones. HAve a few pathfinders and FW as support. Win.

Derp, spam commanders til you win, Tau are a top-tier army.

One spammy build doesn't mean the units and army are fine, because they're not. Commander spam is not what Tau has ever been about, neither on the tabletop or fluff. Even disregarding that, most of the Tau army is overpointed or ineffective (Riptides, Stormsurge, Broadsides, Hammerhead, literally none of these belong in any kind of competitive list). They're also not "pretty effective" in close combat either. What Tau unit would you actually WANT in close combat as opposed to shooting?

Tau commanders are pretty effective in close combat. Enough so that you wouldn't hesitate to send a few unit to degraded units.

They're not specialists, but they do alright. And they leave combat and shoot anyways.

Spamming the most effective units is the competitive meta, so, uh, tau are in the same boat there.

But yes I did note, in my post, that the tau have no middle tier.

But even if they made a lot of tau units better, the competitive list would still be all tau commanders, unless GW had a stroke and made a unit better than commanders. Then you'd see half a dozen to a dozen of that unit instead (riptides in 7th anyone?)

Well, to be fair, you can say that about almost any army. It's not as if every single type of Guard army build does super well. Conscript build does really well, but going vehicle heavy afaik hasn't done well. Same goes for most other armies as well.

DE generally got better, but at a cost that makes me long for 5th Edition.

7th Edition undeniably gutted our flavor, from halving the weapons units could take to replacing Phil Kelly's delightfully British wit with single word USRs and a Day-1-DLC that was impossible to win without.

We definitely improved, and are sitting at a solid mid-tier, hell, maybe even upper mid-tier at the moment.

But Gork Almighty are we about as flavorless as wood glue. We lost all but two options for Deep Strike, lost vehicle options galore, but that's hardly unique. What really has been irking the community is that our army mostly boils down to a point and click Ravager Spam occasionally supplemented by Flyers. By far, however, we have some of the worst HQ options in the entire game.

The worst offender is the Archon, who I will contend is one of the worst designed units in 8th Edition.

Starting off with his auras, or rather aura. He allows nearby Kabal units (Subfaction of DE) to use his leadership instead of their own. Standard stuff, until you consider that he can only give this buff to all of two units, both of which already have Ld8. Again, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, but considering that said units need a transport to be effective, thus negating auras, or the need for leadership altogether, renders him even more useless.

But even in the best case scenario, the buff is useless. Kabal units are basically MSU Guard with a 6+++. They have two states of being: operating at full effectiveness, or existing as a reddish puddle on the battlefield. I can count on one hand the number of times I've had to take a morale check this edition for Kabalites, because they're either unscathed, or have been blasted off the table. (A 5 man Tac Squad in rapid fire will remove half the unit. 10 Guardsmen with First Rank Second Rank will remove it entirely). What you're left with is an HQ with a single buff that most characters get standard and in addition to other auras, but he can only use it on units that don't need it for multiple reasons.

Said Archon has a dedicated bodyguard unit, despite being the cheap and expendable warlord in our index.

Our close combat HQs have the least attacks of any of the other HQ slots. The Special Character that has for years made a point not to use combat drugs is suddenly a junkie.

As a final bit of salt, the Raider, one of our two transports, has a movement characteristic of 14", making it tied for the slowest vehicle of all the Eldar. What's the other one? The Ravager, also a Dark Eldar vehicle.

Dark Eldar are certainly better improved, but the supposed "blistering fast" skimmers being the slowest of the entire race speaks for itself about our level of flavor.

I'm winning like I couldn't even dream in 7th, but I'm having a blasted insignificant amount of fun doing it.

Fugging IG.

I'd say this in any edition. Waves against the rocks. Or Right Weapons against anything you got. Whatever helps you sleep at the night.

 Lance845 wrote:
Nids gained the most. They were bottom of the barrel at the end of 7th and 8th has made basically every unit usable in some kind of a list and many units full blown great.

Right now nids biggest problem is figuring out the most effective way to trim back and focus their units because everything looks so good we want to take it all.

Nids weren't bottom if the barrel they were average, maybe even above average if spamming hive tyrants and mucolid.

Yes we have more options now but we're still average.

Many units are over costed.

Big monsters die too easily as only t6 and many things across the field do lots of wounds.

Nerf to summoning

Flyers worse than other races

Most terrain isn't accessible for monsters

Legit, our lists now consist of 24 biovores (legal limit afaik) and fill the rest. Or, the truly competitive lists are biovores + ig.

This is before the fact that codexes further imbalance the game atm, and naturally sm gets them first ;-)