Yes I know it's not a word shush.

So this is a topic I discuss with a local shop keeper from time to time, "who could technically be considered the good guys of the universe in 40k?"
I mean its an interesting question? to the uneducated whom know nothing of the lore they would probably say "Speic Murines!!" Because they are the guys in the shiny blue armour and look like knights? But then you learn about the backgrounds to most chapters, and for the most part they all have some pretty rough defects to them. Blood Angels being blood-a-holics whom have a small chance of going berserk, Space Wolves are literally one step away from being human wolves, so on and so forth.
But then you look at the rest of the imperium thinking there has to be some objectively good factions? Inquisition maybe? (If any of you laughed at that, good, that was the purpose) Imperial Guard? Sisters of Battle? None of them stray too far from "Duty bound morally neutral" Aside from the Inquisition which have deeds that range from evil to comically evil.

So we look out to the stars and look at the other races? Chaos is kind of out of the riding since well, Khorne is an army populated by sociopath's, Nurgle is just plain gross (Though I would argue probably the closest to a good alignment of all of them) Slaanesh is just icky, Tzeentch is just plain indecisive, maybe, possibly, it might just be a trick that has us all thinking they are but probably not, then you got Malal, but well, he doesn't exist and we should stop talking about him now.

So for Xenos, every single one of them seems to have flaws to a certain degree, but the one that comes to mind is well, T'au
T'au seem to be the only species in the universe that isn't all about killing things on sight, stealing souls, purging, or capturing to take back to some form of rape pit.
Sure they do some horrible things and may or may not be space communists but in comparison to everyone else they seem pretty friendly to be around (Forceful sterilization of humans in their colonies not withstanding)

So the question is simple?
What do you think of this theory? My knowledge of the lore is a bit weak at best, but the T'au seem to be the most peaceful of the groups.
Perhaps you a discussion on the fact that there is no objective view of good, and it's just a made up concept to make us feel like we are doing the right thing? (Exceptionally pretentious)
Perhaps the true lawful good of the universe was the Vespids? They didn't really harm much.
What are all your guys and gals opinions on the topic of morality in 40k?

Definitely the Dark Angels. They (we) are so upset that a couple of Dark Angels went evil 10,000 years ago that they (we) only feel good when they get those Fallen to apologize.

Seems goodest to me!

Salamanders are the "Nice Guys" of Warhammer 40k. Yeah they will kill everything that threats the Imperium, but theres ways and ways of doing war.

Then you have Farsight Enclaves that have all the "good" parts of the Tau with 0 of their flaws as a race.

Those two groups are the nicest of all the 40k Universe.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Definitely the Dark Angels. They (we) are so upset that a couple of Dark Angels went evil 10,000 years ago that they (we) only feel good when they get those Fallen to apologize.

Seems goodest to me!

Well, what makes them the goodest of them all?
I have a friend who is a HUGE fan of them, hell I'm painting his Death Wing.
But I know nothing of their morality, other than their psychic powers involve a LOT of torturing

Y'know, in my heart of hearts, I have the most disturbing feeling that it's Orks.

Orks are probably the heroes of the 40k universe.


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TangoTwoBravo wrote:Definitely the Dark Angels. They (we) are so upset that a couple of Dark Angels went evil 10,000 years ago that they (we) only feel good when they get those Fallen to apologize.

Seems goodest to me!

Galas wrote:Salamanders are the "Nice Guys" of Warhammer 40k. Yeah they will kill everything that threats the Imperium, but theres ways and ways of doing war.

Then you have Farsight Enclaves that have all the "good" parts of the Tau with 0 of their flaws as a race.

Those two groups are the nicest of all the 40k Universe.

Yeah, but, I mean, that's all good and well from an Imperial perspective, but really no matter what flavor of Mehreen you're talking in the end they're kind of poison-spitting monsters genetically engineered and psychically indoctrinated to be complete psychopaths.



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OverlyGrumpyTau wrote:
Slaanesh is just icky

Hey, I resemble that remark.

Nothing wrong with a bit of excess.

At least the Dark Eldar have free medical care! Twisted, perverse, meglomaniacal medical care, sure. But free!

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Y'know, in my heart of hearts, I have the most disturbing feeling that it's Orks.

Orks are probably the heroes of the 40k universe.


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TangoTwoBravo wrote:Definitely the Dark Angels. They (we) are so upset that a couple of Dark Angels went evil 10,000 years ago that they (we) only feel good when they get those Fallen to apologize.

Seems goodest to me!

Galas wrote:Salamanders are the "Nice Guys" of Warhammer 40k. Yeah they will kill everything that threats the Imperium, but theres ways and ways of doing war.

Then you have Farsight Enclaves that have all the "good" parts of the Tau with 0 of their flaws as a race.

Those two groups are the nicest of all the 40k Universe.

Yeah, but, I mean, that's all good and well from an Imperial perspective, but really no matter what flavor of Mehreen you're talking in the end they're kind of poison-spitting monsters genetically engineered and psychically indoctrinated to be complete psychopaths.



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OverlyGrumpyTau wrote:
Slaanesh is just icky

Hey, I resemble that remark.

Nothing wrong with a bit of excess.

At least the Dark Eldar have free medical care! Twisted, perverse, meglomaniacal medical care, sure. But free!

Hey I play Death Guard so I know Icky all too well.
All too well...

I feel like Orks probably would be the closest to heroes, I mean they don't ever really commit war crimes, to them the only war crime is not being in war.

The Imperium.

Any other answer is heresy. And heresy is punished with death.

These philosophical questions are easy.

I'm fairly confident that the whole point of the 40k universe is that there are no good guys. Everybody is in genocide mode 24/7 and any place that even remotely resembles a decent spot to settle down and raise a few kids is guaranteed to get supremely f'd up in the next 10 minutes by some hideous monster/demon/invasion/virus bomb/etc.

And that's why it's so awesome! Anything good or nice or peaceful isn't Grimdark enough and was destroyed millennia ago.

But if I had to pick who was the goodest? Tyranids. Yes they destroy entire star systems and kill billions of people, but they alone don't do it out of spite or hate or dogma. Their purpose is to feed. They kill merely out of instinct, there is no malice behind their actions. Everybody else is perpetually wiping out planets out of hate, which is inherently more evil than the Tyranids.

None. From the point of view of Humanity though Salamanders would be the closest to "good" guys.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
None. From the point of view of Humanity though Salamanders would be the closest to "good" guys.

I was going to say the same thing. No one is really the good guy. The Imperium is just a cold blooded and cruel as Chaos is. Orks and Tyranids are more like forces of Nature than anything else. Both the Eldar and Necrons made huge mistakes that destroyed their empires and now their just trying to rebuild what they lost, the Dark Eldar are another story all together. The Tau are under some delusion that everyone wants to be a space communist. Chaos is just over exaggerated aspects of life (desire, disease, strife, and change). 40K is like Suicide Squad, no real good guys, just various degrees of bad guys

Ravingbantha wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
None. From the point of view of Humanity though Salamanders would be the closest to "good" guys.

The Tau are under some delusion that everyone wants to be a space communist.

Given how fethed up the rest of the universe is, everyone in their right mind should want to become a space communist.

Ravingbantha wrote:

The Tau are under some delusion that everyone wants to be a space communist.

More like "Tau are under a delusion that everyone SHOULD want to be a Space Communist, and anyone that doesn't is irredeemably lost and must die".

It would be hard for them to be under the delusion that everyone wants to be a space communist when they have already encountered many people which don't want to be space communists.

Necrons.

They saved the Galaxy twice, and just want their stuff back.

Hmm lets see.

None of the marine chapter/legions, no matter how good they are out of war, they are still mass murdering genoside machines.

Crons: basically the same as marines, they are literally kill bots (without the inbuilt kill limit)

Tau: Join or Die, at its most basic, they also commit atrocities that today we would consider evil, but on the whole they seem the most "normal", so im gonna go with these guys as the least evil faction, but defo not "good".

Nids dont count and neither do Deamons, neither have a choice and are just by there very nature, dangerous.

Well, define what good means in a universe full of other races, all competing for resources.

In absolute terms, the survival of your species is the ultimate good for your species. Using that yardstick, the Imperium, Craftworld Eldar, Tau and Tyranids are all 'good', as they are primarily concerned with the survival of their species. Of course there are selfish members of most of these races, but their broad motivations are species focused.

All the others are more about individual survival/gratification than the species. The Necrons traded away their flesh and souls for digital immortality (reducing most of their people to automatons in the process), while Dark Eldar will do anything on an individual level to stave off Slannesh. Chaos Space Marines are all chasing personal ascension to daemonhood. Orks just want to have fun fighting anything and everything. Daemons just want to consume souls. They are 'selfish' races - they still need to promote their species, but this is a personal convenience - the numbers help them achieve their individual goals.

The Jokaero. They just wanna build cool gak.

Eldrad. Sure, he might do things that seem unsavory, but it's always for a much greater good in the end.

The Imperial Inquisition. Any suggestion to the contrary is heresy and punishable by death.

 Galas wrote:
Salamanders are the "Nice Guys" of Warhammer 40k. Yeah they will kill everything that threats the Imperium, but theres ways and ways of doing war.

Then you have Farsight Enclaves that have all the "good" parts of the Tau with 0 of their flaws as a race.

Those two groups are the nicest of all the 40k Universe.

The thing about Salamanders is that they view flamethrowers as the most humane weapon, due to some religious fanaticism regarding fire.

Death by flamethrower is a horrific and cruel way to die. Their use is banned in modern warfare specifically because they're a horrific weapon to use on people.

Sallies might well be 'least worst', apart from the whole enjoying burning people alive thing though...

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Imperial Inquisition. Any suggestion to the contrary is heresy and punishable by death.

I did not expect the Imperial Inquisition...

 Happyjew wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Imperial Inquisition. Any suggestion to the contrary is heresy and punishable by death.

I did not expect the Imperial Inquisition...

NO ONE EXPECTS THE INQUISITION!

IandI wrote:
I'm fairly confident that the whole point of the 40k universe is that there are no good guys. Everybody is in genocide mode 24/7 and any place that even remotely resembles a decent spot to settle down and raise a few kids is guaranteed to get supremely f'd up in the next 10 minutes by some hideous monster/demon/invasion/virus bomb/etc.

And that's why it's so awesome! Anything good or nice or peaceful isn't Grimdark enough and was destroyed millennia ago.

But if I had to pick who was the goodest? Tyranids. Yes they destroy entire star systems and kill billions of people, but they alone don't do it out of spite or hate or dogma. Their purpose is to feed. They kill merely out of instinct, there is no malice behind their actions. Everybody else is perpetually wiping out planets out of hate, which is inherently more evil than the Tyranids.

This. If there is one thing to take from 40k, it's that morality within 40k is completely subjective, everyone is the good guy, and no one is the good guy.

Slaanesh aligned individuals, they just want everyone to have a great time.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Imperial Inquisition. Any suggestion to the contrary is heresy and punishable by death.

Heck yeah. Questions about morality aren't subjective when Inquisition is present.

That's the Imperial way.

Imperial Ogryns!

nareik wrote:
Imperial Ogryns!

Ok, I have to agree with this. Their infantile purity and innocence is unrivaled in all of Warhammer40k universe.

I like how they will only get into a chimera when a Commissar is accompanying them (it's his job to remind them that the Emperor is still watching them, even though it is dark).

The Orks.

They have no malice against anyone (or rather they have no concept of malice).
They treat all races equally (i.e: they all make for good krumpin')
They have a meritocratic society (i.e: I beat your head, I iz boss. You beat my head, you iz boss).
They honour even the dead of their foes (bosspoles)
They are completely self fulfilled (WAAAAGH).

Space Wolves.
Space Wolves under Russ were honest to goodness monsters who brutalised populations so that other populations would be too terrified to stand up to the Imperium.

Space Wolves under Logan Grimnar are nanny state meddlers who stand up for the common people against the Inquisition, hopefully I'm not remembering fanfiction when I say they tried to rescue the Squatts and have even shown mercy to Xenos.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Salamanders are the "Nice Guys" of Warhammer 40k. Yeah they will kill everything that threats the Imperium, but theres ways and ways of doing war.

Then you have Farsight Enclaves that have all the "good" parts of the Tau with 0 of their flaws as a race.

Those two groups are the nicest of all the 40k Universe.

The thing about Salamanders is that they view flamethrowers as the most humane weapon, due to some religious fanaticism regarding fire.

Death by flamethrower is a horrific and cruel way to die. Their use is banned in modern warfare specifically because they're a horrific weapon to use on people.

Sallies might well be 'least worst', apart from the whole enjoying burning people alive thing though...

I think If The Emperor Had a Text to Speech Device summed it up best: "So Salamanders are creepy but nice guys who have a thing for helping civilians. And fire".


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 RedCommander wrote:
The Imperium.

Any other answer is heresy. And heresy is punished with death.

These philosophical questions are easy.

This is the correct answer.

It depends a lot on your own species, as the Imperium only cares about (non-mutated) humans, the Eldar about Eldar etc.

I think a good test is to see what would happen to you if you were some non-threatening Xenos (but not from one of the main species), on a planet somewhere.
- CWE and Harlequins will mostly leave you alone. There's always a chance they will use you as a speed bump if an Ork waagh or Tyranid hive fleets is headed towards an Eldar world, but they won't go out of their way to do anything special to you if they don't benefit directly from it. Harlequins might even come and save you if there's a deamonic incursion going on.
- Dark Eldar will want to enslave and torture you
- The Imperium as a whole sees you as unworthy of inhabiting the galaxy, and will slaughter you if it's not too difficult for them (especially if your planet has nice resources)
- The Tyranid just want to eat you
- The Orks to beat you to death
- The Tau empire will want to assimilate you in their ranks. You'll have a choice between fighting them or surrendering. So you can survive as long as you give up on your freedom and start fighting for the greater good (obviously the Tau decides what the greater good is).
- Chaos will usually be bad news. It depends on who you're facing, but there's usually a lot of slaughter/diseases/torture going on. Some factions will accept you if you start worshiping chaos.

So overall I would say CWE and Harlequins. Not because they like you (everyone who isn't Eldar is just some stupid monkey to them), but because for the most part they don't care about you, the same way we don't really care about all the critters in the forest far away from our home.

Harlequins...
With easily Dark Eldar cruelty level punks like Death Jesters the goodness of Troops is pretty easy to argue against.

fresus wrote:
It depends a lot on your own species, as the Imperium only cares about (non-mutated) humans, the Eldar about Eldar etc.

I think a good test is to see what would happen to you if you were some non-threatening Xenos (but not from one of the main species), on a planet somewhere.
- CWE and Harlequins will mostly leave you alone. There's always a chance they will use you as a speed bump if an Ork waagh or Tyranid hive fleets is headed towards an Eldar world, but they won't go out of their way to do anything special to you if they don't benefit directly from it. Harlequins might even come and save you if there's a deamonic incursion going on.
- Dark Eldar will want to enslave and torture you
- The Imperium as a whole sees you as unworthy of inhabiting the galaxy, and will slaughter you if it's not too difficult for them (especially if your planet has nice resources)
- The Tyranid just want to eat you
- The Orks to beat you to death
- The Tau empire will want to assimilate you in their ranks. You'll have a choice between fighting them or surrendering. So you can survive as long as you give up on your freedom and start fighting for the greater good (obviously the Tau decides what the greater good is).
- Chaos will usually be bad news. It depends on who you're facing, but there's usually a lot of slaughter/diseases/torture going on. Some factions will accept you if you start worshiping chaos.

So overall I would say CWE and Harlequins. Not because they like you (everyone who isn't Eldar is just some stupid monkey to them), but because for the most part they don't care about you, the same way we don't really care about all the critters in the forest far away from our home.

Be careful not to equate 'won't pull the trigger themselves' with 'won't go out of their way to harm you' when you're thinking about the Eldar. Just because they don't come down and krump your heads personally, doesn't mean that they're not subtly and purposefully manipulating fate to ensure that your species gets genocided so a half-dozen eldar survive.

They're the white-collar criminals of the 40k universe.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Space Wolves.
Space Wolves under Russ were honest to goodness monsters who brutalised populations so that other populations would be too terrified to stand up to the Imperium.

Space Wolves under Logan Grimnar are nanny state meddlers who stand up for the common people against the Inquisition, hopefully I'm not remembering fanfiction when I say they tried to rescue the Squatts and have even shown mercy to Xenos.

Until Fenris got attacked then Grimnar allowed the inquisition to go around slaughtering his people

Craftworld Eldar just want to fix their past mistakes, which is kind of nice, but don't hesitate to kill anyone or anything to get their way and are also just struggling to survive rather than focusing on long-term goals. Honestly the new kids on the block, the Ynnari, might just be the least terrible. They're trying to make the galaxy a livable place for everyone, and have shown willingness to cooperate with others and include Eldar from all groups.

Ravingbantha wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Space Wolves.
Space Wolves under Russ were honest to goodness monsters who brutalised populations so that other populations would be too terrified to stand up to the Imperium.

Space Wolves under Logan Grimnar are nanny state meddlers who stand up for the common people against the Inquisition, hopefully I'm not remembering fanfiction when I say they tried to rescue the Squatts and have even shown mercy to Xenos.

Until Fenris got attacked then Grimnar allowed the inquisition to go around slaughtering his people

Yeah, I still wish there was more writing on Grimnar's thoughts on that matter, I thought he'd just given up but the very next thing he did was command all Space Wolf Forces to Cadia.
It's possible that because the Fenrisians are nomadic and scattered, not just across the planet but in the Space Wolves' fleets and Fenris alone is a pretty rugged place so Grimnar expected it to be too hard for the Grey Knights to hunt them all down.
It's also possible that Grimnar knew there were a grand total of eight hundred Space Wolves left and they had zero chance against the Grey Knights since the Grey Knights had already made planetfall which meant they were already past Fenris' best defenses, the Dark Angels were also in the mix and they could be ordered into helping the Grey Knights destroy Fenris completely so letting the Grey Knights fail to kill all Fenrisians could have been the best way of saving more Fenrisians than encouraging a battle that probably would have resulted in the destruction of the entire planet, the Dark Angels might not hit the wrong planet a second time.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Ravingbantha wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Space Wolves.
Space Wolves under Russ were honest to goodness monsters who brutalised populations so that other populations would be too terrified to stand up to the Imperium.

Space Wolves under Logan Grimnar are nanny state meddlers who stand up for the common people against the Inquisition, hopefully I'm not remembering fanfiction when I say they tried to rescue the Squatts and have even shown mercy to Xenos.

Until Fenris got attacked then Grimnar allowed the inquisition to go around slaughtering his people

Yeah, I still wish there was more writing on Grimnar's thoughts on that matter, I thought he'd just given up but the very next thing he did was command all Space Wolf Forces to Cadia.
It's possible that because the Fenrisians are nomadic and scattered, not just across the planet but in the Space Wolves' fleets and Fenris alone is a pretty rugged place so Grimnar expected it to be too hard for the Grey Knights to hunt them all down.
It's also possible that Grimnar knew there were a grand total of eight hundred Space Wolves left and they had zero chance against the Grey Knights since the Grey Knights had already made planetfall which meant they were already past Fenris' best defenses, the Dark Angels were also in the mix and they could be ordered into helping the Grey Knights destroy Fenris completely so letting the Grey Knights fail to kill all Fenrisians could have been the best way of saving more Fenrisians than encouraging a battle that probably would have resulted in the destruction of the entire planet, the Dark Angels might not hit the wrong planet a second time.

Where are you getting 800 remaining Space Wolves from?

Ravingbantha wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Ravingbantha wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Space Wolves.
Space Wolves under Russ were honest to goodness monsters who brutalised populations so that other populations would be too terrified to stand up to the Imperium.

Space Wolves under Logan Grimnar are nanny state meddlers who stand up for the common people against the Inquisition, hopefully I'm not remembering fanfiction when I say they tried to rescue the Squatts and have even shown mercy to Xenos.

Until Fenris got attacked then Grimnar allowed the inquisition to go around slaughtering his people

Yeah, I still wish there was more writing on Grimnar's thoughts on that matter, I thought he'd just given up but the very next thing he did was command all Space Wolf Forces to Cadia.
It's possible that because the Fenrisians are nomadic and scattered, not just across the planet but in the Space Wolves' fleets and Fenris alone is a pretty rugged place so Grimnar expected it to be too hard for the Grey Knights to hunt them all down.
It's also possible that Grimnar knew there were a grand total of eight hundred Space Wolves left and they had zero chance against the Grey Knights since the Grey Knights had already made planetfall which meant they were already past Fenris' best defenses, the Dark Angels were also in the mix and they could be ordered into helping the Grey Knights destroy Fenris completely so letting the Grey Knights fail to kill all Fenrisians could have been the best way of saving more Fenrisians than encouraging a battle that probably would have resulted in the destruction of the entire planet, the Dark Angels might not hit the wrong planet a second time.

Where are you getting 800 remaining Space Wolves from?

Wrong info - my bad.
Eight hundred is my guesstimate for the Space Wolves' numbers after Cadia and before they got their Primaris boost.
At the end of the Warzone Fenris the Drakeslayers, Krakenslayers, Firehowlers and Redmaws are mentioned as being outside the system so I'd put the Wolves at about thirteen hundred in the Fenris system before you include the Wulfen, Wolf Priests and Dreadnoughts into the mix.
Probably fourteen hundred all up, that's not considering casualties from the absolute hell they just went through.
They were dealing with the Grey Knights, numbers unstated and The Rock.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Ravingbantha wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Ravingbantha wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Space Wolves.
Space Wolves under Russ were honest to goodness monsters who brutalised populations so that other populations would be too terrified to stand up to the Imperium.

Space Wolves under Logan Grimnar are nanny state meddlers who stand up for the common people against the Inquisition, hopefully I'm not remembering fanfiction when I say they tried to rescue the Squatts and have even shown mercy to Xenos.

Until Fenris got attacked then Grimnar allowed the inquisition to go around slaughtering his people

Yeah, I still wish there was more writing on Grimnar's thoughts on that matter, I thought he'd just given up but the very next thing he did was command all Space Wolf Forces to Cadia.
It's possible that because the Fenrisians are nomadic and scattered, not just across the planet but in the Space Wolves' fleets and Fenris alone is a pretty rugged place so Grimnar expected it to be too hard for the Grey Knights to hunt them all down.
It's also possible that Grimnar knew there were a grand total of eight hundred Space Wolves left and they had zero chance against the Grey Knights since the Grey Knights had already made planetfall which meant they were already past Fenris' best defenses, the Dark Angels were also in the mix and they could be ordered into helping the Grey Knights destroy Fenris completely so letting the Grey Knights fail to kill all Fenrisians could have been the best way of saving more Fenrisians than encouraging a battle that probably would have resulted in the destruction of the entire planet, the Dark Angels might not hit the wrong planet a second time.

Where are you getting 800 remaining Space Wolves from?

Wrong info - my bad.
Eight hundred is my guesstimate for the Space Wolves' numbers after Cadia and before they got their Primaris boost.
At the end of the Warzone Fenris the Drakeslayers, Krakenslayers, Firehowlers and Redmaws are mentioned as being outside the system so I'd put the Wolves at about thirteen hundred in the Fenris system before you include the Wulfen, Wolf Priests and Dreadnoughts into the mix.
Probably fourteen hundred all up, that's not considering casualties from the absolute hell they just went through.
They were dealing with the Grey Knights, numbers unstated and The Rock.

I don't think there were too many Grey Knight left either. And while the Space Wolves were at a greatly reduced number, it still bothers me how casually Grimnar was about letting his people get slaughtered. It just seemed out of character for him to go rushing off to Cadia and leave his home in the hands of foreigners, especially ones known to be absolutely brutal to a population

The thing i've always got from the SW fluff isn't that they give two hoots about what happens to civilians. They don't care, that's the Salamanders.

They do, however, care about warriors who have proven themselves valourous in battle. That was the motivation i got for why they fought against the Inquisition when they wanted to wipe out the population of Armageddon.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
The thing i've always got from the SW fluff isn't that they give two hoots about what happens to civilians. They don't care, that's the Salamanders.

They do, however, care about warriors who have proven themselves valourous in battle. That was the motivation i got for why they fought against the Inquisition when they wanted to wipe out the population of Armageddon.

Seems fair to me - they do everything they can to save people who try to survive and ignore people who demand to be saved rather than trying to save themselves.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
The thing i've always got from the SW fluff isn't that they give two hoots about what happens to civilians. They don't care, that's the Salamanders.

They do, however, care about warriors who have proven themselves valourous in battle. That was the motivation i got for why they fought against the Inquisition when they wanted to wipe out the population of Armageddon.

It's not so much that they really care about the civilians, but more of an issue of 'it's there territory'. Much like a wolf doesn't care about the rabbits in it's territory, but another wolf comes in for some hunting and crap will go down. They Grey Knights hunting Fenrisians is like pissing in Grimnar's cereal and him not caring.

OverlyGrumpyTau wrote:
Yes I know it's not a word shush.

So this is a topic I discuss with a local shop keeper from time to time, "who could technically be considered the good guys of the universe in 40k?"
I mean its an interesting question? to the uneducated whom know nothing of the lore they would probably say "Speic Murines!!" Because they are the guys in the shiny blue armour and look like knights? But then you learn about the backgrounds to most chapters, and for the most part they all have some pretty rough defects to them. Blood Angels being blood-a-holics whom have a small chance of going berserk, Space Wolves are literally one step away from being human wolves, so on and so forth.
But then you look at the rest of the imperium thinking there has to be some objectively good factions? Inquisition maybe? (If any of you laughed at that, good, that was the purpose) Imperial Guard? Sisters of Battle? None of them stray too far from "Duty bound morally neutral" Aside from the Inquisition which have deeds that range from evil to comically evil.

So we look out to the stars and look at the other races? Chaos is kind of out of the riding since well, Khorne is an army populated by sociopath's, Nurgle is just plain gross (Though I would argue probably the closest to a good alignment of all of them) Slaanesh is just icky, Tzeentch is just plain indecisive, maybe, possibly, it might just be a trick that has us all thinking they are but probably not, then you got Malal, but well, he doesn't exist and we should stop talking about him now.

So for Xenos, every single one of them seems to have flaws to a certain degree, but the one that comes to mind is well, T'au
T'au seem to be the only species in the universe that isn't all about killing things on sight, stealing souls, purging, or capturing to take back to some form of rape pit.
Sure they do some horrible things and may or may not be space communists but in comparison to everyone else they seem pretty friendly to be around (Forceful sterilization of humans in their colonies not withstanding)

So the question is simple?
What do you think of this theory? My knowledge of the lore is a bit weak at best, but the T'au seem to be the most peaceful of the groups.
Perhaps you a discussion on the fact that there is no objective view of good, and it's just a made up concept to make us feel like we are doing the right thing? (Exceptionally pretentious)
Perhaps the true lawful good of the universe was the Vespids? They didn't really harm much.
What are all your guys and gals opinions on the topic of morality in 40k?

It's da Orkz, ya git.


The Orks are probably the most honest and straightforward race in 40k. In a galaxy of lies and deceit, they are somewhat refreshing. Until they krump you over da 'ead with a choppa.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
The thing i've always got from the SW fluff isn't that they give two hoots about what happens to civilians. They don't care, that's the Salamanders.

They do, however, care about warriors who have proven themselves valourous in battle. That was the motivation i got for why they fought against the Inquisition when they wanted to wipe out the population of Armageddon.

Seems fair to me - they do everything they can to save people who try to survive and ignore people who demand to be saved rather than trying to save themselves.

Yeah that's a good way of putting it you have to earn your right to be saved.

Ravingbantha wrote:


It's not so much that they really care about the civilians, but more of an issue of 'it's there territory'. Much like a wolf doesn't care about the rabbits in it's territory, but another wolf comes in for some hunting and crap will go down. They Grey Knights hunting Fenrisians is like pissing in Grimnar's cereal and him not caring.

Hmmm, I can see the territory thing. I can also see that Fenrisians are the only folk who can actually be turned into Space Wolves by now (barring Primaris, as if they needed to be any more Mary Sue).

Perhaps he reasoned that if they fought the Grey Knights here all of the Space Wolves would be wiped out, and given the size of populations on Imperial vessels there should be enough Fenrisian voidborn stock to keep the Wolves rolling. A rare moment of pragmatism maybe...

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

It's da Orkz, ya git.

The Orks are probably the most honest and straightforward race in 40k. In a galaxy of lies and deceit, they are somewhat refreshing. Until they krump you over da 'ead with a choppa.

Even during the aforementioned 'ead krumpin' they're still refreshingly honest. There's no malice, no twisted schemes. Just a simple 'orks was made for fightin' drive...

I hate this question. It comes up every few years and the debate doesn't reveal anything new.

"Who are the good guys?" or "Who is the goodest?" - these questions imply good is some universal truth, or that it would be answered the same way by different species. But what's good for an Ork is not what's good for a Space Marine - one thinks red vehicles are good because they go faster, one thinks the Emperor is good because He is the Truth and Hail Imperium.

But then there's the question of whether any Imperial citizen would even agree with what a Space Marine thinks is good. Let's say, for a moment, an Imperial citizen treats religion from a secular viewpoint, and is really more interested in the day-to-day of his life. He may find himself at odds with the Imperial creed in many ways, especially if it means he is consigned to a life of poverty and constant warfare. He may come to resent the Imperium itself, and good - for this Imperial citizen - might be defined as "Whoever buys my stuff," which could include Tau, Eldar, etc.

There is one character who brought the most good into the universe, defined relative to each faction in the game.

It's Horus Lupercal.

- The Chaos Space Marines got opportunity to worship their dark Gods and pursue power thanks to Horus. They would not have existed were it not for him.

- The Space Marines / IG got the Imperial Cult as a result of the Heresy. The IC officially is "good" and defines concepts of right and wrong for them. It would not exist without Horus.

- Orks got constant, endless war as a result of Horus's actions, which is their "good." Were it not for him, the Imperium would have remained a scientific powerhouse and 10,000 years of mpire building / scientific advancement surely would have meant their end.

- The Eldar / Dark Eldar got safety in their webway gates as a result of Horus' actions, which can be considered one the greatest "good" for them. Fluff has it the Emperor was working on his own webway gates at the start of the Heresy, which would have meant the opportunity for conquest from within their own cities. It could be argued Horus saved them from that fate.

- The Tau got the opportunity to expand into Imperial territories as a result of Horus. A united Imperium would not have tolerated them at all. It was only because he was able to keep the Imperium on the defensive for centuries that they have been overlooked.

- Tyranids got nothing. They are a hive mind and concepts of "good" are meaningless. It's about what can and cannot be consumed, and nothing Horus or the Imperium could do affects that one way or the other.

So much "good" came about as the result of the actions of one Primarch. No one else has had this kind of impact on concepts of good and evil within the 40k universe, not even the Emperor or the Dark Gods themselves.

 techsoldaten wrote:
I hate this question. It comes up every few years and the debate doesn't reveal anything new.

"Who are the good guys?" or "Who is the goodest?" - these questions imply good is some universal truth, or that it would be answered the same way by different species. But what's good for an Ork is not what's good for a Space Marine - one thinks red vehicles are good because they go faster, one thinks the Emperor is good because He is the Truth and Hail Imperium.

But then there's the question of whether any Imperial citizen would even agree with what a Space Marine thinks is good. Let's say, for a moment, an Imperial citizen treats religion from a secular viewpoint, and is really more interested in the day-to-day of his life. He may find himself at odds with the Imperial creed in many ways, especially if it means he is consigned to a life of poverty and constant warfare. He may come to resent the Imperium itself, and good - for this Imperial citizen - might be defined as "Whoever buys my stuff," which could include Tau, Eldar, etc.

There is one character who brought the most good into the universe, defined relative to each faction in the game.

It's Horus Lupercal.

- The Chaos Space Marines got opportunity to worship their dark Gods and pursue power thanks to Horus. They would not have existed were it not for him.

- The Space Marines / IG got the Imperial Cult as a result of the Heresy. The IC officially is "good" and defines concepts of right and wrong for them. It would not exist without Horus.

- Orks got constant, endless war as a result of Horus's actions, which is their "good." Were it not for him, the Imperium would have remained a scientific powerhouse and 10,000 years of mpire building / scientific advancement surely would have meant their end.

- The Eldar / Dark Eldar got safety in their webway gates as a result of Horus' actions, which can be considered one the greatest "good" for them. Fluff has it the Emperor was working on his own webway gates at the start of the Heresy, which would have meant the opportunity for conquest from within their own cities. It could be argued Horus saved them from that fate.

- The Tau got the opportunity to expand into Imperial territories as a result of Horus. A united Imperium would not have tolerated them at all. It was only because he was able to keep the Imperium on the defensive for centuries that they have been overlooked.

- Tyranids got nothing. They are a hive mind and concepts of "good" are meaningless. It's about what can and cannot be consumed, and nothing Horus or the Imperium could do affects that one way or the other.

So much "good" came about as the result of the actions of one Primarch. No one else has had this kind of impact on concepts of good and evil within the 40k universe, not even the Emperor or the Dark Gods themselves.

...man's got a point.

Considering that it was the Chaos Gods that were behind Horus' actions, the only people who are actually working for the utilitarian ideal of the greatest good for the greatest number of people (irrespective of creed or race) appear to be the Ruinous Powers...

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I hate this question. It comes up every few years and the debate doesn't reveal anything new.

"Who are the good guys?" or "Who is the goodest?" - these questions imply good is some universal truth, or that it would be answered the same way by different species. But what's good for an Ork is not what's good for a Space Marine - one thinks red vehicles are good because they go faster, one thinks the Emperor is good because He is the Truth and Hail Imperium.

But then there's the question of whether any Imperial citizen would even agree with what a Space Marine thinks is good. Let's say, for a moment, an Imperial citizen treats religion from a secular viewpoint, and is really more interested in the day-to-day of his life. He may find himself at odds with the Imperial creed in many ways, especially if it means he is consigned to a life of poverty and constant warfare. He may come to resent the Imperium itself, and good - for this Imperial citizen - might be defined as "Whoever buys my stuff," which could include Tau, Eldar, etc.

There is one character who brought the most good into the universe, defined relative to each faction in the game.

It's Horus Lupercal.

- The Chaos Space Marines got opportunity to worship their dark Gods and pursue power thanks to Horus. They would not have existed were it not for him.

- The Space Marines / IG got the Imperial Cult as a result of the Heresy. The IC officially is "good" and defines concepts of right and wrong for them. It would not exist without Horus.

- Orks got constant, endless war as a result of Horus's actions, which is their "good." Were it not for him, the Imperium would have remained a scientific powerhouse and 10,000 years of mpire building / scientific advancement surely would have meant their end.

- The Eldar / Dark Eldar got safety in their webway gates as a result of Horus' actions, which can be considered one the greatest "good" for them. Fluff has it the Emperor was working on his own webway gates at the start of the Heresy, which would have meant the opportunity for conquest from within their own cities. It could be argued Horus saved them from that fate.

- The Tau got the opportunity to expand into Imperial territories as a result of Horus. A united Imperium would not have tolerated them at all. It was only because he was able to keep the Imperium on the defensive for centuries that they have been overlooked.

- Tyranids got nothing. They are a hive mind and concepts of "good" are meaningless. It's about what can and cannot be consumed, and nothing Horus or the Imperium could do affects that one way or the other.

So much "good" came about as the result of the actions of one Primarch. No one else has had this kind of impact on concepts of good and evil within the 40k universe, not even the Emperor or the Dark Gods themselves.

...man's got a point.

Considering that it was the Chaos Gods that were behind Horus' actions, the only people who are actually working for the utilitarian ideal of the greatest good for the greatest number of people (irrespective of creed or race) appear to be the Ruinous Powers...

I hadn't thought about that. It's worth remembering the Ruinous Powers have their own agendas, and each Power has it's own agenda. Each of them appears to have been advanced by Horus' actions.

In a very general sense, Horus has brought some "good" into the universe by Necron standards as well. Nothing lead to as much loss of life as the Horus Heresy (except maybe the Birth of Slaanesh.) Considering the Necrons want everything that is not Necrons dead, it could be said his actions are good relative to their agenda.

Having a hard time seeing anyone but Horus as the source of all "Good." He would not have been there but for the Emperor, but his acted to take the Emperor down.

Whats this lame ass Horus Heresy revisionism!

Iron Hand genocide was fake, Death Guard used the viruses only to clean their clothes!

I think Tau and the Imperium are the least badderest.

 techsoldaten wrote:

In a very general sense, Horus has brought some "good" into the universe by Necron standards as well. Nothing lead to as much loss of life as the Horus Heresy (except maybe the Birth of Slaanesh.) Considering the Necrons want everything that is not Necrons dead, it could be said his actions are good relative to their agenda.

(Most) Necrons don't want life exterminated. That said the Imperium would be a much greater threat to the awakening Tomb Worlds had the Horus Heresy never occurred.

Humans, Eldar, Tau, Tyranids, and Necrons are all "good". They exist for their own survival of their species, and no species is required to care, recognize, or otherwise aid in the survival of any other species. There isn't anything really wrong with xenocide from a consequentialist's perspective unless it harms the survival of your own collective in the process. Thus the Imperium is good because it is good for humanity, the T'au Empire is good because it is good for the Tau, the Eldar Craftworlds are good because they are good the Eldar, and the Necron Dynasties are good because they are good for the Necrontyr's survival and eventual resurrection. Each species is in its own struggle for survival, and they are all entitled to pursue the means of their survival however necessary so long as it does not serve the greater good of that survival. For example the Imperium or Tau Empire would be bad if it actually threatened the survival of the species instead of protecting it.

Although I would say that the Imperium would become 'evil' if it ever actually wins and does not change its ways. The Imperium has been justified as a nation for the past ten thousand years because circumstances justify the atrocities it commits as any other path would lead to extinction: an unacceptable outcome. The same holds for the other civilizations of the other species such as the Necrons. They are what I would describe as transitionary. They are bad because they must be bad to lead their species into a better future. Once that future is achieved however they certainly need to relax their level of oppression as it is no longer demanded by their surroundings. If you exterminatus a hundred billion souls because of a small number of dangerous heretics occupying the world that cannot be evicted and threatens nearby innocent planet- your actions are justified and they are good. If you however defeat Chaos and prevent it from ever being a threat, and exterminatus a planet of heretics because they do not fit your dogma, you'd fit many definitions of the word evil and certainly would not be a force for good.

The question of who is "goodest" is silly as it is relativism. An Eldar would say the Craftworlds are the "goodest" faction because it serves his interests and the interests of his people. A Necron (if it's one capable of reason) would say its faction is the "goodest" because it serves the interests of it and its collective the best. Etc.

In terms of general belevolence someone like Isha feels like a safe bet.

Although it was pretty much her fault that caused the War in Heaven, which resulted in the deaths of countless eldar (and if it's the same as the Necron War in Heaven but remembered from a different perspective, which is a possibility, then she's partially responsible for the genocide of the Old Ones, the genocide of the Necrontyr, the creation of the Orks and all the destruction they've wrought, and all the other nastiness that's stemmed from that conflict).

Orks, 100%! They don't care if you're human, alien, elf or a giant squig! If you can offer them a fight they will treat you the same way they would want to be treated!

Chaos are the good guys. Pure to who they are and what they are.

Tyranids.

No bad feelings. No bad intents. Just living life and grabing a meal. Having some babies. Tyranids are no more evil then a lion on a hunt.

Since everyone else is a morally corrupt piece of gak and/or war mongers actively trying to cause harm and/or racists, it has to be the nids.

Grandpa Nurgle. All he wants is for everyone to love everyone.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Definitely the Dark Angels. They (we) are so upset that a couple of Dark Angels went evil 10,000 years ago that they (we) only feel good when they get those Fallen to apologize.

Seems goodest to me!

They killed a whole company of black Templar to protect their secrets. They are one of the more evil space marine chapters.

 Xenomancers wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Definitely the Dark Angels. They (we) are so upset that a couple of Dark Angels went evil 10,000 years ago that they (we) only feel good when they get those Fallen to apologize.

Seems goodest to me!

They killed a whole company of black Templar to protect their secrets. They are one of the more evil space marine chapters.

That's not fair, the Black Templar are religious nutters who hate and want to destroy everybody because of psychic ability or any percieved flaw, admittedly the DA don't have much unusual by way of psychic ability and their geneseed is nearly perfect so they'd probably get along well with the Black Templar under normal circumstances but that's like saying you'd normally get along well with the Nazi party's leaders because you have blonde hair and blue eyes...

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Definitely the Dark Angels. They (we) are so upset that a couple of Dark Angels went evil 10,000 years ago that they (we) only feel good when they get those Fallen to apologize.

Seems goodest to me!

They killed a whole company of black Templar to protect their secrets. They are one of the more evil space marine chapters.

That's not fair, the Black Templar are religious nutters who hate and want to destroy everybody because of psychic ability or any percieved flaw, admittedly the DA don't have much unusual by way of psychic ability and their geneseed is nearly perfect so they'd probably get along well with the Black Templar under normal circumstances but that's like saying you'd normally get along well with the Nazi party's leaders because you have blonde hair and blue eyes...

They didnt kill the black templars because their crazy though. They were fine with the BT being crazy zealots. They killed them because they dont care what it costs to hide their secret. There is no length the DA would not go to, no cost, no amount of lives they would not sacrifice on the alter of their secrecy.

Dark Angles have probably commited more atrocities either through direct action or by inaction to pursue their own agenda then any other sm chapter. The fact that they have to hide and cover up all these things is evidence enough for how bad it is.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Definitely the Dark Angels. They (we) are so upset that a couple of Dark Angels went evil 10,000 years ago that they (we) only feel good when they get those Fallen to apologize.

Seems goodest to me!

They killed a whole company of black Templar to protect their secrets. They are one of the more evil space marine chapters.

That's not fair, the Black Templar are religious nutters who hate and want to destroy everybody because of psychic ability or any percieved flaw, admittedly the DA don't have much unusual by way of psychic ability and their geneseed is nearly perfect so they'd probably get along well with the Black Templar under normal circumstances but that's like saying you'd normally get along well with the Nazi party's leaders because you have blonde hair and blue eyes...

They didnt kill the black templars because their crazy though. They were fine with the BT being crazy zealots. They killed them because they dont care what it costs to hide their secret. There is no length the DA would not go to, no cost, no amount of lives they would not sacrifice on the alter of their secrecy.

Dark Angles have probably commited more atrocities either through direct action or by inaction to pursue their own agenda then any other sm chapter. The fact that they have to hide and cover up all these things is evidence enough for how bad it is.

Don't the Grey Knights count? I bet they've killed more to cover up Chaos, I bet they're way ahead on innocent blood too.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Definitely the Dark Angels. They (we) are so upset that a couple of Dark Angels went evil 10,000 years ago that they (we) only feel good when they get those Fallen to apologize.

Seems goodest to me!

They killed a whole company of black Templar to protect their secrets. They are one of the more evil space marine chapters.

That's not fair, the Black Templar are religious nutters who hate and want to destroy everybody because of psychic ability or any percieved flaw, admittedly the DA don't have much unusual by way of psychic ability and their geneseed is nearly perfect so they'd probably get along well with the Black Templar under normal circumstances but that's like saying you'd normally get along well with the Nazi party's leaders because you have blonde hair and blue eyes...

They didnt kill the black templars because their crazy though. They were fine with the BT being crazy zealots. They killed them because they dont care what it costs to hide their secret. There is no length the DA would not go to, no cost, no amount of lives they would not sacrifice on the alter of their secrecy.

Dark Angles have probably commited more atrocities either through direct action or by inaction to pursue their own agenda then any other sm chapter. The fact that they have to hide and cover up all these things is evidence enough for how bad it is.

Don't the Grey Knights count? I bet they've killed more to cover up Chaos, I bet they're way ahead on innocent blood too.

Eh... Grey knights do it because they actually believe that they are stopping chaos from getting a foot hold. Their wrong. But to them any knowledge of deamons or deamon hunters (which in turn proves deamons) opens the door to let the deamons in. Its fethed but they do it for a percieved greater good.

The dark angles do it just so nobody finds out that 10k years ago some of them went bad and then they spent the next 10k years adding skeletons to their closests in the rock to make sure nobody found out. DA arn't trying to save anyone but themselves.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Definitely the Dark Angels. They (we) are so upset that a couple of Dark Angels went evil 10,000 years ago that they (we) only feel good when they get those Fallen to apologize.

Seems goodest to me!

They killed a whole company of black Templar to protect their secrets. They are one of the more evil space marine chapters.

That's not fair, the Black Templar are religious nutters who hate and want to destroy everybody because of psychic ability or any percieved flaw, admittedly the DA don't have much unusual by way of psychic ability and their geneseed is nearly perfect so they'd probably get along well with the Black Templar under normal circumstances but that's like saying you'd normally get along well with the Nazi party's leaders because you have blonde hair and blue eyes...

They didnt kill the black templars because their crazy though. They were fine with the BT being crazy zealots. They killed them because they dont care what it costs to hide their secret. There is no length the DA would not go to, no cost, no amount of lives they would not sacrifice on the alter of their secrecy.

Dark Angles have probably commited more atrocities either through direct action or by inaction to pursue their own agenda then any other sm chapter. The fact that they have to hide and cover up all these things is evidence enough for how bad it is.

Don't the Grey Knights count? I bet they've killed more to cover up Chaos, I bet they're way ahead on innocent blood too.

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus Imperator qui sunt eius.

 Happyjew wrote:
Grandpa Nurgle. All he wants is for everyone to love everyone.

I think I may repeal my suggestion of imperial ogryns...

Is there any fluff on Papa Nurgle Ogryns? Are they giant puppys of love and sharing kindness?

Yea, maybe Nurgle Ogryns are the most gentle, loving, kindest of 40k's denizens!

The Dark Angels are merely trying to ensure that good triumphs and evil is destroyed. Some would try to forget past evils, but the Dark Angels are so good that they cannot rest until that ancient stain is erased.

Good and evil are subjective. Before we try to decide who is 'good', we need to define what good is.

Alignment systems are messy. Look at D&D: is the paladin good? Sacrificing his life to save the innocent villager even though this means his mission will fail and the kingdom will fall? Is the cleric good? Refusing to shed blood in the name of their god so they bludgeon their enemies with a frickin warhammer? Ironically in the modern paradigm, the true neutral druid seems good - accepting that bad things will happen but trying to maintain the balance.

nareik wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Grandpa Nurgle. All he wants is for everyone to love everyone.

I think I may repeal my suggestion of imperial ogryns...

Is there any fluff on Papa Nurgle Ogryns? Are they giant puppys of love and sharing kindness?

Yea, maybe Nurgle Ogryns are the most gentle, loving, kindest of 40k's denizens!

There is actually. I forget which one, but one of the Imperial Armour books (Siege of Vraks) featured plague ogryns.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Definitely the Dark Angels. They (we) are so upset that a couple of Dark Angels went evil 10,000 years ago that they (we) only feel good when they get those Fallen to apologize.

Seems goodest to me!

They killed a whole company of black Templar to protect their secrets. They are one of the more evil space marine chapters.

That's not fair, the Black Templar are religious nutters who hate and want to destroy everybody because of psychic ability or any percieved flaw, admittedly the DA don't have much unusual by way of psychic ability and their geneseed is nearly perfect so they'd probably get along well with the Black Templar under normal circumstances but that's like saying you'd normally get along well with the Nazi party's leaders because you have blonde hair and blue eyes...

They didnt kill the black templars because their crazy though. They were fine with the BT being crazy zealots. They killed them because they dont care what it costs to hide their secret. There is no length the DA would not go to, no cost, no amount of lives they would not sacrifice on the alter of their secrecy.

Dark Angles have probably commited more atrocities either through direct action or by inaction to pursue their own agenda then any other sm chapter. The fact that they have to hide and cover up all these things is evidence enough for how bad it is.

Don't the Grey Knights count? I bet they've killed more to cover up Chaos, I bet they're way ahead on innocent blood too.

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus Imperator qui sunt eius.

I'm not female, using a language of love is not going to gain my sympathy for pious mass murderers.

 Happyjew wrote:

nareik wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Grandpa Nurgle. All he wants is for everyone to love everyone.

I think I may repeal my suggestion of imperial ogryns...

Is there any fluff on Papa Nurgle Ogryns? Are they giant puppys of love and sharing kindness?

Yea, maybe Nurgle Ogryns are the most gentle, loving, kindest of 40k's denizens!

There is actually. I forget which one, but one of the Imperial Armour books (Siege of Vraks) featured plague ogryns.

Actually, Chaos Ogryn tend to be pretty scary IIRC, if only because Ogryn pretty much never turn to Chaos on their own, and nd any cult that manages to get any on their side will try to make the most of them by making them as violent as possible.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Definitely the Dark Angels. They (we) are so upset that a couple of Dark Angels went evil 10,000 years ago that they (we) only feel good when they get those Fallen to apologize.

Seems goodest to me!

They killed a whole company of black Templar to protect their secrets. They are one of the more evil space marine chapters.

That's not fair, the Black Templar are religious nutters who hate and want to destroy everybody because of psychic ability or any percieved flaw, admittedly the DA don't have much unusual by way of psychic ability and their geneseed is nearly perfect so they'd probably get along well with the Black Templar under normal circumstances but that's like saying you'd normally get along well with the Nazi party's leaders because you have blonde hair and blue eyes...

They didnt kill the black templars because their crazy though. They were fine with the BT being crazy zealots. They killed them because they dont care what it costs to hide their secret. There is no length the DA would not go to, no cost, no amount of lives they would not sacrifice on the alter of their secrecy.

Dark Angles have probably commited more atrocities either through direct action or by inaction to pursue their own agenda then any other sm chapter. The fact that they have to hide and cover up all these things is evidence enough for how bad it is.

Don't the Grey Knights count? I bet they've killed more to cover up Chaos, I bet they're way ahead on innocent blood too.

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus Imperator qui sunt eius.

I'm not female, using a language of love is not going to gain my sympathy for pious mass murderers.

..It was Almaric's response to the ethical conundrum that the Grey Knights face prior to the sack of Béziers, with a rather hilarious conclusion. "Kill them all, let god sort them out".

Greyknights don't kill to coverup like the dark angels - they kill to stop the corruption. Still pretty evil.

Really the whole imperium is very evil. Much more evil than the galactic empire in starwars. The least Evil group in 40k I believe is the Ulthwe - Eldrad to me at least seems to have the best interest of the galaxy at heart.

Evil by who's standard though?

The Grey Knights can't be everywhere at once. Better to excise all tissue at risk of Cancer and hope the body can survive, than risk it spreading beyond all control when the body will almost certainly die.

Then of course there's the question of what happens to those killed by Daemons. I'd rather meet my end via cyclonic torpedoes than become the plaything of Chaos.

 John Prins wrote:
Well, define what good means in a universe full of other races, all competing for resources.

Meh. In a very real sense, no one is competing for resources at all. Maybe Tau with a tiny corner of the Imperium, but almost no one else cares about 'resources'. Except the Tyranids, who eat everybody.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Evil by who's standard though?

The Grey Knights can't be everywhere at once. Better to excise all tissue at risk of Cancer and hope the body can survive, than risk it spreading beyond all control when the body will almost certainly die.

Then of course there's the question of what happens to those killed by Daemons. I'd rather meet my end via cyclonic torpedoes than become the plaything of Chaos.

killing everyone because there is a chance that 10% of them might be corrupted is pretty evil. Though ultimately they will all succumb. What a truely good people would do would be to try to isolate and treat the corrupted. To kill the guilty at the expense of the innocent is a not a good trait. The imperil sacrifices what...2000 psykers a day to a pile of bones? That gak is evil bro.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Greyknights don't kill to coverup like the dark angels - they kill to stop the corruption. Still pretty evil.

Really the whole imperium is very evil. Much more evil than the galactic empire in starwars. The least Evil group in 40k I believe is the Ulthwe - Eldrad to me at least seems to have the best interest of the galaxy at heart.

The killing the Grey Knights, Inquisition, and Imperium doesn't isn't evil, it's completely justified. In order to support the greater good of preserving the human species, it is necessary that billions die so that quadrillions of humans may live. Their actions are justified and just as they are necessitated by the nature of the universe they have the misfortune of living in.

Wasn't there a point in GK history where they would kill Sisters of Battle and use their blood to anoint their armour?

 Happyjew wrote:
Wasn't there a point in GK history where they would kill Sisters of Battle and use their blood to anoint their armour?

So it sayeth in the Book of Ward, our Spiritual Liege. Amen.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Evil by who's standard though?

The Grey Knights can't be everywhere at once. Better to excise all tissue at risk of Cancer and hope the body can survive, than risk it spreading beyond all control when the body will almost certainly die.

Then of course there's the question of what happens to those killed by Daemons. I'd rather meet my end via cyclonic torpedoes than become the plaything of Chaos.

killing everyone because there is a chance that 10% of them might be corrupted is pretty evil. Though ultimately they will all succumb. What a truely good people would do would be to try to isolate and treat the corrupted. To kill the guilty at the expense of the innocent is a not a good trait. The imperil sacrifices what...2000 psykers a day to a pile of bones? That gak is evil bro.

lolwut. You don't treat Chaos Corruption. Chaos Corruption is memetic and spreads ridiculously fast and can lead swiftly to a fullblown demonic outbreak, killing billions and possibly hundreds of billions of people if the taint lives long enough to break open a portal to the warp and unleash a full blown demonic invasion. There can be no leniency, no mercy, and even association is justly condemn-able because the survival of the species demands it. The psykers sacrificed to sustain and feed the God Emperor are also a necessity to sustain the species against Chaos.

Lol that over the top fluff is purposely meant to be insane, shocking and grimdark. With the the fluff calling the Imperium the bloodiest totalitarian regime in human history. I don't think having some of us go 'hmm , this behaviour seems perfectly logical and acceptable to me' was high up on the authors' list in what they were trying to portray.

I don't know of anything in 40k that can be defined as good by civilized human standards. Immorality is artificially dialed up to eleven as the meat and potatoes of the setting. That being said I would have to chose the orks. Without being mindless or animals they have evolved a race wide society that is angst free. As a race whose dna is engineered for fighting, whose reproduction a's well as individual growth is tied to fighting, it appears the orks , true to their nature, have led themselves into a golden age.

I still wouldn't want to meet them.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Lol that over the top fluff is purposely meant to be insane, shocking and grimdark. With the the fluff calling the Imperium the bloodiest totalitarian regime in human history. I don't think having some of us go 'hmm , this behaviour seems perfectly logical and acceptable to me' was high up on the authors' list in what they were trying to portray.

I don't know of anything in 40k that can be defined as good by civilized human standards. Immorality is artificially dialed up to eleven as the meat and potatoes of the setting. That being said I would have to chose the orks. Without being mindless or animals they have evolved a race wide society that is angst free. As a race whose dna is engineered for fighting, whose reproduction a's well as individual growth is tied to fighting, it appears the orks , true to their nature, have led themselves into a golden age.

I still wouldn't want to meet them.

The Imperium is only evil under deontological ethics, which deontological ethics themselves are silly anyway and most people hold a moral system fusing consequentialism and deontology together (often obeying consequentialism when suddenly moral absolutes don't benefit them anymore, see the dying child scenario). However the Imperium is definitely justified considering its purpose is the most important cause of all (from a human perspective), which is the continuation of the human race. Secondly as I have posted many times before on many other forums before, the idea that the Imperium is proportionally the bloodiest and most horrible regime imaginable falls flat because of GW being completely ignorant of the horrors of history, and failing to portray the Imperium in a manner that makes them compare at all to the worst nightmares of history. Plus it was actually revealed recently in the Beast series that that flavor text is biased and from the perspective of a moody Vulkan who wrote the "intro" to 40k.

However on the Imperium it is important to remember that our modern moral beliefs are a luxury, not an absolute. The idea of a right to life and fair trials is something born out of an era wanting for existential threats. We don't live in times where one aresehole could doom the entire population of a city by leaving a small gate open to an invader, or when genocidal maniacs prowled the land and would butcher the entire population of nations for refusing surrender. The context sets the moral standards, not the morals. When the survival of the species is threatened, any means to prevent extinction become acceptable when the threat is legitimate (such as having four literal incarnations of evil seeking to bring about the end of the entire universe via infiltration and corruption).

The context is the Imperium is over-the-top satire, not to be taken as seriously as you're taking it. Its an awful place filled with awful people to have an excuse to have fake battles.

Voss wrote:
The context is the Imperium is over-the-top satire, not to be taken as seriously as you're taking it. Its an awful place filled with awful people to have an excuse to have fake battles.

40K stopped being comedic satire a long, long time ago.

 techsoldaten wrote:
I hate this question. It comes up every few years and the debate doesn't reveal anything new.

"Who are the good guys?" or "Who is the goodest?" - these questions imply good is some universal truth, or that it would be answered the same way by different species. But what's good for an Ork is not what's good for a Space Marine - one thinks red vehicles are good because they go faster, one thinks the Emperor is good because He is the Truth and Hail Imperium.

But then there's the question of whether any Imperial citizen would even agree with what a Space Marine thinks is good. Let's say, for a moment, an Imperial citizen treats religion from a secular viewpoint, and is really more interested in the day-to-day of his life. He may find himself at odds with the Imperial creed in many ways, especially if it means he is consigned to a life of poverty and constant warfare. He may come to resent the Imperium itself, and good - for this Imperial citizen - might be defined as "Whoever buys my stuff," which could include Tau, Eldar, etc.

There is one character who brought the most good into the universe, defined relative to each faction in the game.

It's Horus Lupercal.

- The Chaos Space Marines got opportunity to worship their dark Gods and pursue power thanks to Horus. They would not have existed were it not for him.

- The Space Marines / IG got the Imperial Cult as a result of the Heresy. The IC officially is "good" and defines concepts of right and wrong for them. It would not exist without Horus.

- Orks got constant, endless war as a result of Horus's actions, which is their "good." Were it not for him, the Imperium would have remained a scientific powerhouse and 10,000 years of mpire building / scientific advancement surely would have meant their end.

- The Eldar / Dark Eldar got safety in their webway gates as a result of Horus' actions, which can be considered one the greatest "good" for them. Fluff has it the Emperor was working on his own webway gates at the start of the Heresy, which would have meant the opportunity for conquest from within their own cities. It could be argued Horus saved them from that fate.

- The Tau got the opportunity to expand into Imperial territories as a result of Horus. A united Imperium would not have tolerated them at all. It was only because he was able to keep the Imperium on the defensive for centuries that they have been overlooked.

- Tyranids got nothing. They are a hive mind and concepts of "good" are meaningless. It's about what can and cannot be consumed, and nothing Horus or the Imperium could do affects that one way or the other.

So much "good" came about as the result of the actions of one Primarch. No one else has had this kind of impact on concepts of good and evil within the 40k universe, not even the Emperor or the Dark Gods themselves.

F*****g Horus was a selfish douchebag.

If any primarch was morally good, it was Sanguinius. The man was selfless, even though he was mighty.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Voss wrote:
The context is the Imperium is over-the-top satire, not to be taken as seriously as you're taking it. Its an awful place filled with awful people to have an excuse to have fake battles.

40K stopped being comedic satire a long, long time ago.

If you can't see the humor in this setting, there's something wrong with you.

 RedCommander wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I hate this question. It comes up every few years and the debate doesn't reveal anything new.

"Who are the good guys?" or "Who is the goodest?" - these questions imply good is some universal truth, or that it would be answered the same way by different species. But what's good for an Ork is not what's good for a Space Marine - one thinks red vehicles are good because they go faster, one thinks the Emperor is good because He is the Truth and Hail Imperium.

But then there's the question of whether any Imperial citizen would even agree with what a Space Marine thinks is good. Let's say, for a moment, an Imperial citizen treats religion from a secular viewpoint, and is really more interested in the day-to-day of his life. He may find himself at odds with the Imperial creed in many ways, especially if it means he is consigned to a life of poverty and constant warfare. He may come to resent the Imperium itself, and good - for this Imperial citizen - might be defined as "Whoever buys my stuff," which could include Tau, Eldar, etc.

There is one character who brought the most good into the universe, defined relative to each faction in the game.

It's Horus Lupercal.

- The Chaos Space Marines got opportunity to worship their dark Gods and pursue power thanks to Horus. They would not have existed were it not for him.

- The Space Marines / IG got the Imperial Cult as a result of the Heresy. The IC officially is "good" and defines concepts of right and wrong for them. It would not exist without Horus.

- Orks got constant, endless war as a result of Horus's actions, which is their "good." Were it not for him, the Imperium would have remained a scientific powerhouse and 10,000 years of mpire building / scientific advancement surely would have meant their end.

- The Eldar / Dark Eldar got safety in their webway gates as a result of Horus' actions, which can be considered one the greatest "good" for them. Fluff has it the Emperor was working on his own webway gates at the start of the Heresy, which would have meant the opportunity for conquest from within their own cities. It could be argued Horus saved them from that fate.

- The Tau got the opportunity to expand into Imperial territories as a result of Horus. A united Imperium would not have tolerated them at all. It was only because he was able to keep the Imperium on the defensive for centuries that they have been overlooked.

- Tyranids got nothing. They are a hive mind and concepts of "good" are meaningless. It's about what can and cannot be consumed, and nothing Horus or the Imperium could do affects that one way or the other.

So much "good" came about as the result of the actions of one Primarch. No one else has had this kind of impact on concepts of good and evil within the 40k universe, not even the Emperor or the Dark Gods themselves.

F*****g Horus was a selfish douchebag.

If any primarch was morally good, it was Sanguinius. The man was selfless, even though he was mighty.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Voss wrote:
The context is the Imperium is over-the-top satire, not to be taken as seriously as you're taking it. Its an awful place filled with awful people to have an excuse to have fake battles.

40K stopped being comedic satire a long, long time ago.

If you can't see the humor in this setting, there's something wrong with you.

The humor in the setting is mostly dead. It sometimes in paraded around in materials like the weekly Primer blog GW runs, but in regards to the novels they are all dead serious with little to no satire or humor within them- pure action.

 Wyzilla wrote:

The humor in the setting is mostly dead. It sometimes in paraded around in materials like the weekly Primer blog GW runs, but in regards to the novels they are all dead serious with little to no satire or humor within them- pure action.

GW have tried to make the setting more appealing to young boys by toning down the humour and satire, and by pushing Space Marines. That doesn't mean the setting isn't silly at its core, it's full of over-the-top illogical things drawn from all over pop culture, sci-fi and fantasy.

I find it hard not to giggle at the setting as a whole, and some aspects of it in particular.

Necrons are definitely the lawful good race. The Silent King left the Milkyway Galaxy to the void and had the necrons placed in hibernation so the galaxy could heal after the War in Heaven. Necrons only woke back up to protect the galaxy from the Tyranids after the Silent King turned back do to finding the tyranids in the void.

Necron fluff has been retconned so much that people assume they are the evil exterminate all army do old fluff no longer cannon. Everything else evil about the necrons can be do to certain individual necrons like Illuminor Szeras and the Flayer Virus.

Now for a vote for the most evil I'd vote for the Tyranids for obvious reasons, but that's also like saying the lion is evil when it attacks the gazelle and those evil 2 faced space elves, eldar. The Old ones created them and messed up since the out of control emotions from the Eldar created their own gods which in turn created the first chaos gods along with ruined the Immaterium creating the warp that let out the Enslavers in the first place...dirty evil space elves.

Plus if the Ynarri is correct then once every Eldar is dead then Slannesh can finally be beaten, but the collateral damage would open up the warp for a massive Enslaver debacle which would cause life to all but be purged like right after the War in Heaven in the first place.

KTar wrote:

Now for a vote for the most evil I'd vote for the Tyranids for obvious reasons, but that's also like saying the lion is evil when it attacks the gazelle

No, it's not. Lions are non-sapient animals. Many individual Tyranids may not themselves be sapient, but the Hive Mind definitely is. If we accept morality outside of humanity as a thing, the Hive Mind is definitely evil. In other words, if Dark Eldar can be evil, the Tyranids can, too.

 Cream Tea wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

The humor in the setting is mostly dead. It sometimes in paraded around in materials like the weekly Primer blog GW runs, but in regards to the novels they are all dead serious with little to no satire or humor within them- pure action.

GW have tried to make the setting more appealing to young boys by toning down the humour and satire, and by pushing Space Marines. That doesn't mean the setting isn't silly at its core, it's full of over-the-top illogical things drawn from all over pop culture, sci-fi and fantasy.

I find it hard not to giggle at the setting as a whole, and some aspects of it in particular.

All fantasy is silly and absurd by its very nature. That does make it comedic or satire by nature, and does not preclude it from serious observation.

There actually exists something worthwhile from YouTube-comment section:

"Being funny isn't a matter of being clever, or a recitation of wordplay. "Funny" is a way of viewing reality itself. Something is funny when it is unexpected, when you look into the mirror of the world just so and perceive a distorted reflection of what you meant to see. People look at the 41st Millennium, the grimdark, the endless war, and don't think they see anything funny. Their faces set in the mask of a frown. They cannot perceive that it needs no punchline, because it serves by existing as its own punchline, the same as any other form of humor. They cannot see. But Cegorach does see. He looks at their frowning masks from the other direction, and this reality becomes something...funny." - About Cegorach's Theme - "Prime Clown"

Cegorach is the only non-Imperium entity that has a point. Of course, we must still destroy him but I'd prefer that he was the last one we destroy. He's... funny.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Lol that over the top fluff is purposely meant to be insane, shocking and grimdark. With the the fluff calling the Imperium the bloodiest totalitarian regime in human history. I don't think having some of us go 'hmm , this behaviour seems perfectly logical and acceptable to me' was high up on the authors' list in what they were trying to portray.

I don't know of anything in 40k that can be defined as good by civilized human standards. Immorality is artificially dialed up to eleven as the meat and potatoes of the setting. That being said I would have to chose the orks. Without being mindless or animals they have evolved a race wide society that is angst free. As a race whose dna is engineered for fighting, whose reproduction a's well as individual growth is tied to fighting, it appears the orks , true to their nature, have led themselves into a golden age.

I still wouldn't want to meet them.

The Imperium is only evil under deontological ethics, which deontological ethics themselves are silly anyway and most people hold a moral system fusing consequentialism and deontology together (often obeying consequentialism when suddenly moral absolutes don't benefit them anymore, see the dying child scenario). However the Imperium is definitely justified considering its purpose is the most important cause of all (from a human perspective), which is the continuation of the human race. Secondly as I have posted many times before on many other forums before, the idea that the Imperium is proportionally the bloodiest and most horrible regime imaginable falls flat because of GW being completely ignorant of the horrors of history, and failing to portray the Imperium in a manner that makes them compare at all to the worst nightmares of history. Plus it was actually revealed recently in the Beast series that that flavor text is biased and from the perspective of a moody Vulkan who wrote the "intro" to 40k.

The funny thing about 40k is that the "most good" faction, ie. the Imperium, is absolutely ruthless and totalitarian. But what is the alternative for normal human beings? Eaten by Tyranids? Killed by Necrons? Killed and/or corrupted by chaos? Conquered by Tau? Beaten to death by Orks? Tortured to death by Dark Eldar/regular Eldar? Unlike all the other factions, Imperium wants peace and order and they'll do anything it takes to achieve this very thing. So, the difference is that the other factions only want destructive ends and the Imperium wants destructive *and* constructive ends. By default, Imperium is the "goodest" of the setting.

Depends on how you define good

For the sake of argument, lets say good involves empathy and caring not jusr for oneself but for other species too.

By this definition, nobody is good in 40k.
But some factions have good subfactions

SM salamanders.
Guard have some caring commisars or passionate governors.
Tau do have some good members

Tyranids become animals without the influence of the hive mind.
The rest? Unredeemable.

Don't say Necrons are mindless killers. Read their newest fluff. They don't even want to rule the galaxy. They just want to fix what occurred with the Immertium knowing full well all the psychic races are just making it worse and want to stop the Tyranid Invasion. Heck some of the necron royals want to make guests with the other races and teach them Necrontyr culture.

They even realize how off putting their robotic bodies are and want to some way go back to flesh and blood bodies.

 RedCommander wrote:

The funny thing about 40k is that the "most good" faction, ie. the Imperium, is absolutely ruthless and totalitarian. But what is the alternative for normal human beings? Eaten by Tyranids? Killed by Necrons? Killed and/or corrupted by chaos? Conquered by Tau? Beaten to death by Orks? Tortured to death by Dark Eldar/regular Eldar? Unlike all the other factions, Imperium wants peace and order and they'll do anything it takes to achieve this very thing. So, the difference is that the other factions only want destructive ends and the Imperium wants destructive *and* constructive ends. By default, Imperium is the "goodest" of the setting.

I don't see how the Imperium could be considered "more good" than the T'au Empire or the Craftworld Aeldari. All of those factions want survival, prosperity, and dominion over others. I'd say the Imperium is the most oppressive and least moral of the three, with the T'au being more moral than the Aeldari mostly by virtue of being less xenophobic and condescending. All of them are xenophobic and condescending though.

The Dark Angels embrace diversity. They believe in Salvation and Redemption. One time they didn't virus bomb a planet. Clearly the goodest.

 Cream Tea wrote:

I don't see how the Imperium could be considered "more good" than the T'au Empire or the Craftworld Aeldari. All of those factions want survival, prosperity, and dominion over others. I'd say the Imperium is the most oppressive and least moral of the three, with the T'au being more moral than the Aeldari mostly by virtue of being less xenophobic and condescending. All of them are xenophobic and condescending though.

Ah, I thought this argument would arise.

Tau and Eldar are utterly wrong because they are xenos and therefore deserving of a prometheum bath.

I'd say the Imperium is the most noble and moral of these three because they realize the above fact and make their best to annihilate the remaining two.

Q.E.D.

 Cream Tea wrote:

 RedCommander wrote:

The funny thing about 40k is that the "most good" faction, ie. the Imperium, is absolutely ruthless and totalitarian. But what is the alternative for normal human beings? Eaten by Tyranids? Killed by Necrons? Killed and/or corrupted by chaos? Conquered by Tau? Beaten to death by Orks? Tortured to death by Dark Eldar/regular Eldar? Unlike all the other factions, Imperium wants peace and order and they'll do anything it takes to achieve this very thing. So, the difference is that the other factions only want destructive ends and the Imperium wants destructive *and* constructive ends. By default, Imperium is the "goodest" of the setting.

I don't see how the Imperium could be considered "more good" than the T'au Empire or the Craftworld Aeldari. All of those factions want survival, prosperity, and dominion over others. I'd say the Imperium is the most oppressive and least moral of the three, with the T'au being more moral than the Aeldari mostly by virtue of being less xenophobic and condescending. All of them are xenophobic and condescending though.

Except they are all the same, desiring total dominion of their species above all others which will likely lead to violent suppression of everything that raises a hand in protest. Regardless they are all good in that they pursue means to preserve their species in a ridiculously hostile universe. Their governments are justified in their actions up until they no longer become necessary. Although one could question the validity of if there is any moral prerogative to care for the well being of another species.

 Cream Tea wrote:

KTar wrote:

Now for a vote for the most evil I'd vote for the Tyranids for obvious reasons, but that's also like saying the lion is evil when it attacks the gazelle

No, it's not. Lions are non-sapient animals. Many individual Tyranids may not themselves be sapient, but the Hive Mind definitely is. If we accept morality outside of humanity as a thing, the Hive Mind is definitely evil. In other words, if Dark Eldar can be evil, the Tyranids can, too.

It's an interesting inversion.

Humans as groups struggle to be very sapient (mob rule, etc)*. Tyrannids are the opposite; they are unsapient as individuals** but collectively intelligent.

*unless you include warp oddities like chaos daemons and gods as the manifestation collective humans sapiency.

**obviously with some exceptions; genestealers, tyrants, possibly lictors and so on.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
The Dark Angels embrace diversity. They believe in Salvation and Redemption. One time they didn't virus bomb a planet. Clearly the goodest.

Too bad their idea of redemption kind of means redemption after death. Rotting aside dead people don't change much so redemption after death is kind of pointless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RedCommander wrote:

 Cream Tea wrote:

I don't see how the Imperium could be considered "more good" than the T'au Empire or the Craftworld Aeldari. All of those factions want survival, prosperity, and dominion over others. I'd say the Imperium is the most oppressive and least moral of the three, with the T'au being more moral than the Aeldari mostly by virtue of being less xenophobic and condescending. All of them are xenophobic and condescending though.

Ah, I thought this argument would arise.

Tau and Eldar are utterly wrong because they are xenos and therefore deserving of a prometheum bath.

I'd say the Imperium is the most noble and moral of these three because they realize the above fact and make their best to annihilate the remaining two.

Q.E.D.

My Deathwatch army loves your answer.

nareik wrote:

 Cream Tea wrote:

KTar wrote:

Now for a vote for the most evil I'd vote for the Tyranids for obvious reasons, but that's also like saying the lion is evil when it attacks the gazelle

No, it's not. Lions are non-sapient animals. Many individual Tyranids may not themselves be sapient, but the Hive Mind definitely is. If we accept morality outside of humanity as a thing, the Hive Mind is definitely evil. In other words, if Dark Eldar can be evil, the Tyranids can, too.

It's an interesting inversion.

Humans as groups struggle to be very sapient (mob rule, etc)*. Tyrannids are the opposite; they are unsapient as individuals** but collectively intelligent.

*unless you include warp oddities like chaos daemons and gods as the manifestation collective humans sapiency.

**obviously with some exceptions; genestealers, tyrants, possibly lictors and so on.

More importantly, even if the Nids collectively are sapient, they do not consider other life forms to be.

Other species are nothing more than indigestion while they devour worlds. Clever indigestion is still just indigestion.

The Enders Game series has a series of classifications of foreignness. http://enderverse.wikia.com/wiki/Hierarchy_of_Foreignness

I am sure the Nids would consider everyone else Varelse at best and Djur most of the time.

I've got to add my vote to Tyranids. Animal instincts.

Isn't the Hive Mind shown as feeling hate for the Farseer at the end of Vaeldor?

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Isn't the Hive Mind shown as feeling hate for the Farseer at the end of Vaeldor?

How would someone even get that information?

 Lance845 wrote:


More importantly, even if the Nids collectively are sapient, they do not consider other life forms to be.

Other species are nothing more than indigestion while they devour worlds. Clever indigestion is still just indigestion.

The Enders Game series has a series of classifications of foreignness. http://enderverse.wikia.com/wiki/Hierarchy_of_Foreignness

I am sure the Nids would consider everyone else Varelse at best and Djur most of the time.

Huh, what's with the Swedish words?

Also, I don't think Tyranids would consider anything other than themselves as worthy of consideration. Not even a rival Tyranid hive mind. They probably only judge threat levels and nutritional value.

I change my vote to tau. Tau seem like good chaps.

The followers of Tzeench (especially my tzeench renegade chapter) are perfectly good guys
They will happily "save" worlds and forge worlds the imperium has carelessly neglected.

That's true... Tzeentch does always have spare change for those he see's in need.

Goobi2 wrote:
That's true... Tzeentch does always have spare change for those he see's in need.

Man, I wouldn't accept even spare change from that giant nerd. Much less the change you are talking about.

The Exodites.

They generally just want to be left alone to raise their dinosaurs and not do the things that destroyed a galactic hyperpower and birthed a chaos god.

You can't argue with that

I'm sure there's a golden retriever (or their one of their distant descendants) that's a very good boy.

 Robin5t wrote:
The Exodites.

They generally just want to be left alone to raise their dinosaurs and not do the things that destroyed a galactic hyperpower and birthed a chaos god.

You can't argue with that

Mine certainly aren't (and i've always thought the whole pacifist thing was ill-fitting with the 40k universe at large).

In the main, exodites were religious fanatics opposed to the excesses of the pleasure cults. Mine, for instance, were followers of Kurnous.

As such, it's the Hunt which they venerate. Ork, human, eldar. All are prey before the hunter god.