So my friend was talking to me about his IG army and how in the new codex it suggests ways you can create some regiments out of gw peices. He was pretty excited for this as he hates having the basic few models as guardsmen. However, he soon worked out it could cost upwards of £50-100 just for one 10 man squad?! Does GW really expect us to buy this stuff? Or do they expect us to already have the bits or ask for them from other players? (Because the avarge players doesn't play that many factions at once and some of these bits are needed to complete a model so i doubt people will just give them up) Even If you went to alternative bits companies their stocks are random and could take you many many months to create that dream regiment of yours! So really gw has just wasted their time with what was probably a genuine attempt to encourage customisable units but ended up looking, to me and my friend, like an old GW cash grab attempt from players who spend more money on 40k than I earn a year.

Why didn't GW just bring out a box of bits ready for you to make your own gaurds using their suggestions?

No, of course not. That's why they just show the finished models without telling you where their parts come from. It's more just: "if you have some bits and think you can combine them into something cool, then go for it and call it a regiment"

It's only a suggestion. If it's going to cost too much for yourself, don't do it.

I don't think they expect it but I doubt they would say anything other than - here are other models we sell that you could use. I think its at least positive that they are encouraging conversions.

I do wish they had done the same for Rough Riders as there is vast amounts of cross compatibility/conversion with all the various creature riders they already make.

Be a good WD article maybe.....

I’ve already sent an email to the community team asking a couple of questions because of this. I worked out, for the infantry portion of my army my idea would cost upwards of £700… (and thats with using another store to get discount on the GW kits!)

The questions I asked were around GW events and what their stance on things like head or leg swaps were. If they come back saying even things like head swaps aren’t allowed at their events I’ll be camping bitz sites for months I think. If they are somewhat ok with a head here or there etc, then I’ll prob get heads and legs from 3rd party sites and other bits from boxes/bitz sites.

My point to them was £700+ = 80 guardsmen but then 1000’s of bitz after that are completely usless. (i.e. if you take a set of legs from one kit what are you going to do with the rest of the legless kit?), unless you want to try to mash the other kits together in the hope that it works and is reasonable. I’d possibly be buying 2 boxes of neophytes for nothing more than their heads, for example.

If they come back and say "100% our kits only" then i'd prob have them as an independent event army only, or just forget about the concept completely.

How about buying one box of neophytes and recasting the head? It's not that hard.

 von Hohenstein wrote:
How about buying one box of neophytes and recasting the head? It's not that hard.

It's also frowned upon and can get you kicked out of many stores. It's also borderline illegal.

 von Hohenstein wrote:
How about buying one box of neophytes and recasting the head? It's not that hard.

Never thought about it. Wouldn't know how either etc.

Might be an option if im honest - will need to look into it, but i'm very wary of trying it.

Point him to Victoria miniatures or anvil industries for a more reasonable option.

 von Hohenstein wrote:
How about buying one box of neophytes and recasting the head? It's not that hard.

or heck, just gettin the upgrade sprue, which comes with 10 heads because it was packaged specifically with an IG cadian box to make conversions with.

This whole thread is ridiculous. People getting on GW about not showing any kitbashes anymore and whining how they only show the official models. GW makes a whole page of kitbashes - people immediately start crying about how ridiculous it is that GW "Expects" them to buy 3 kits and mush them together.

Like, what?

In my bits box right now, I have 30 Skitarii ranger heads, because I built vanguard with my kits and they come with all the ranger gear. I have 30 skitarii ranger rifles for those bits and bobs if i want them. I have 2 sets of the awesome looking, much more to scale autocannons and lascannons that come in the Balistarii kit because I built dragoons (I tell a lie, I've used all those for conversions already, they just make such nice looking HWTs), I have GSC autoguns aplenty which come along with the GSC arms/shoulders if I want those.

That leaves me at the point of needing to buy one kit for legs and torsos if I want to build a few converted guard squads.

Yeah, the shown conversions would be expensive if you literally went out and bought the kit just for the conversion bit, but for the most part if you have a kit like the skitarii or the gsc that has a bunch of extra heads/weapons/arms/whatever you can just go to ebay or miniswap and find people looking to offload the extras they had after building the kit.

I used the spare heads from my Scions boxes to turn AM infantry into a vets squad.
It is very basic, and even that needed some filing-down to fit, but use what you have left over.
If you want to make a specific army of a certain style, it will cost a lot more.

But, you're left with more kits to make other models from. If you mix Skitarii with AM to make an AM army, you also bought a Skitarii army. Sell it on, or use that too.

 Skinnereal wrote:
But, you're left with more kits to make other models from. If you mix Skitarii with AM to make an AM army, you also bought a Skitarii army. Sell it on, or use that too.

Wouldn't you be without several key components of the Skitarii, making them look horrible?

GW doesn't expect you to do anything, short of buy their models.

There are plenty of people with the budget to make a full army of crazy converted minis, and then have them pro-painted etc. It's not impossible. It's just showing what you can do, if you choose to.

I would rather talk about the kitbashing opportunities presented to us here. Skitarii Vanguard heads on Scion armoured torsos for heavy infantry, Scion heads on GS cult bodies for light infantry (I'm quite interested in that myself).

Look around the place for inspiration. See this Hunter from Destiny:



I think that's a good start for a light infantry regiment. What parts would you use to make that? Skitarii Ranger heads on Cadian bodies?

Having said all this, I understand how things can get very expensive for us. Maybe the solution is for gw to sell us the combined parts? Just like they did with the GS cults by combining the Cadian and Neophytes together into one box?

 Trickstick wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:
But, you're left with more kits to make other models from. If you mix Skitarii with AM to make an AM army, you also bought a Skitarii army. Sell it on, or use that too.

Wouldn't you be without several key components of the Skitarii, making them look horrible?

Not if you used the heads or the guns, you get both in the box.

If you use the hooded heads and rifles/arms that come on the rifles, you still have a full box of skitarii vanguard for instance.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:
But, you're left with more kits to make other models from. If you mix Skitarii with AM to make an AM army, you also bought a Skitarii army. Sell it on, or use that too.

Wouldn't you be without several key components of the Skitarii, making them look horrible?

You'll also have the rest of the other kit you started converting to begin with. You'll only use 1 body (legs and torso), 2 arms and a head. There are at least an equal amount of each on most boxes.

It would be real nice if they're going to keep encouraging these if they'd let us buy individual sprues rather than having to buy entire boxes. But other than that, it's really just a way to use spare parts to make unique looking armies, or really go hog and spend a lot on one.

The models in the book are literally just cool toys someone in the studio bashed together over a lunch break. They're not anticipating anyone will actually go and put together full regiments of them.

It does seem there would be a market for generic upgrade kits for Guardsmen. Alternate heads, capes/overcoats, perhaps different chest plates and weapon variants.
I like some of the suggested schemes but it would be damn expensive to build a force this way, particularly an infantry heavy force

 Huron black heart wrote:
It does seem there would be a market for generic upgrade kits for Guardsmen. Alternate heads, capes/overcoats, perhaps different chest plates and weapon variants.
I like some of the suggested schemes but it would be damn expensive to build a force this way, particularly an infantry heavy force

The marines always got it with alternative shoulder pads and the like. I can't help but be a little bitter.

 Corrode wrote:
The models in the book are literally just cool toys someone in the studio bashed together over a lunch break. They're not anticipating anyone will actually go and put together full regiments of them.

You know someone will though. Would be nice to see a chem dog force.

 lolman1c wrote:
Does GW really expect us to convert IG models using their suggestions?

No, Mr Bond, they expect you to die.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
[big image]

Well that looks like a potential First and Only, if I ever saw one.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
The marines always got it with alternative shoulder pads and the like. I can't help but be a little bitter.

If you mean third party parts, there are plenty of cool heads out there. My personal favourites are puppetswar.eu. Loads of different heads, like boonie hats!

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 Huron black heart wrote:
It does seem there would be a market for generic upgrade kits for Guardsmen. Alternate heads, capes/overcoats, perhaps different chest plates and weapon variants.
I like some of the suggested schemes but it would be damn expensive to build a force this way, particularly an infantry heavy force

The marines always got it with alternative shoulder pads and the like. I can't help but be a little bitter.

Imagination goes a long way for conversions!!

During the Black Gobbo era they frequently posted up conversion articles where the bitz would be hilariously expensive to buy individually (and at times cost more than even a FW equivallent). This is no surprise since conversion by themselves should be considered to be first and foremost for the art of it, not any cost-saving measures (although most people use it for the latter now).

Plus you will get that one or two nutter who scour the bitz sites for the relevent pieces and actually assemble a whole regiment of them. It's happened before and it will happen again. The entire concept of Exodite Eldar basically relies on it.

 lolman1c wrote:

 von Hohenstein wrote:
How about buying one box of neophytes and recasting the head? It's not that hard.

It's also frowned upon and can get you kicked out of many stores. It's also borderline illegal.

Is it though? Even for personal use? I don't know about the law in UK, but that wouldn't even rise to a civil matter here AFAIK, and certainly not a criminal one. IANAL but I doubt anything less than an actual counterfeiting operation would be.

Recasts, in any context, is a grey area. And generally not one we like discussing here due to potential legal ramifications.

Personal use tends to be a fallacy that people made up to make themselves feel better, mostly used for video games. Yes, it's illegal, regardless of whether you get caught and face a suit or not.

They don't expect it, but GW would love for you to throw some more money at them for their incredibly overpriced kits to use with their incredibly poor rules.

 troa wrote:
Personal use tends to be a fallacy that people made up to make themselves feel better, mostly used for video games. Yes, it's illegal, regardless of whether you get caught and face a suit or not.

Can you cite some case law (or something to that effect)? I'm pretty sure you could make physical castings of a game disc all day long without breaking any laws.

Buy from one of several excellent third party manufacturers for conversion bits. Victoria Miniatures is where I get my not-Mordians from. There's also kilts, and kilts are badass.

 Thorax Abdomen wrote:

 troa wrote:
Personal use tends to be a fallacy that people made up to make themselves feel better, mostly used for video games. Yes, it's illegal, regardless of whether you get caught and face a suit or not.

Can you cite some case law (or something to that effect)? I'm pretty sure you could make physical castings of a game disc all day long without breaking any laws.

Again, due to legal reasons, we do not like discussing the morality or legalities of recasts here, and let's just leave it at that before the mods have to be called in.

"due to legal reasons?" There's nothing illegal about discussing the legality of something. That's a really odd sentiment.

But go ahead and tell on people to the teacher if you find it necessary.

Oh noes! Anything but that! I'll never speak of it again, promise mister!

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Again, due to legal reasons, we do not like discussing the morality or legalities of recasts here, and let's just leave it at that before the mods have to be called in.

The rules only prohibit the promotion of recasting, not the discussion of it entirely. We can talk about the concept of legality as long as it doesn't stray into promotion. A fine line, to be sure, but not a blanket ban.

Relevant rules post.

As to legality, it really depends on your jurisdiction. The reason that "personal use" get's discussed is because once money changes hands a lot more laws become relevant.

Trickstick wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Again, due to legal reasons, we do not like discussing the morality or legalities of recasts here, and let's just leave it at that before the mods have to be called in.

The rules only prohibit the promotion of recasting, not the discussion of it entirely. We can talk about the concept of legality as long as it doesn't stray into promotion. A fine line, to be sure, but not a blanket ban.

Relevant rules post.

As to legality, it really depends on your jurisdiction. The reason that "personal use" get's discussed is because once money changes hands a lot more laws become relevant.

It's because these generally devolve into people shouting at each other and bringing up recasting sites and whatnot. Like I said, it's a grey area and draws unwanted attention from GW, as even the discussion of personal use can be seen as promoting recasting (especially since, as discussed, this differs depending on jurisdiction and Dakka spans the entire world). Not to mention we've had several incidents in the past where people asked about recasts ostensibly for personal reasons, only to toe the line until the mods came in. It's overall better to not discuss it at all to avoid getting wrangled with GW.

Purifier wrote:"due to legal reasons?" There's nothing illegal about discussing the legality of something. That's a really odd sentiment.

But go ahead and tell on people to the teacher if you find it necessary.

If you have a bone to pick with me, I've already sent a PM on that line of discussion (which you have not responded to at all as of this writing). Again, that little yellow button exists if you think I've done something wrong.

 lolman1c wrote:
So my friend was talking to me about his IG army and how in the new codex it suggests ways you can create some regiments out of gw peices. He was pretty excited for this as he hates having the basic few models as guardsmen. However, he soon worked out it could cost upwards of £50-100 just for one 10 man squad?! Does GW really expect us to buy this stuff? Or do they expect us to already have the bits or ask for them from other players? (Because the avarge players doesn't play that many factions at once and some of these bits are needed to complete a model so i doubt people will just give them up) Even If you went to alternative bits companies their stocks are random and could take you many many months to create that dream regiment of yours! So really gw has just wasted their time with what was probably a genuine attempt to encourage customisable units but ended up looking, to me and my friend, like an old GW cash grab attempt from players who spend more money on 40k than I earn a year.

Yes, they expect people to do it. People pay that much for FW infantry squads already. See £35 for a 5-man space marine squad, £43 (plus weapon upgrades) for a DKoK infantry squad, etc. Obviously some people aren't going to be willing to pay that much, but GW does have a target market in mind.

Why didn't GW just bring out a box of bits ready for you to make your own gaurds using their suggestions?

Because that would be pointless. The whole idea with their suggestions is that they're suggestions, meant to be used for inspiration, not a single standardized template to follow. You're supposed to come up with your own ideas, and no single box of bits is going to cover that range of creativity.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

If you have a bone to pick with me, I've already sent a PM on that line of discussion (which you have not responded to at all as of this writing). Again, that little yellow button exists if you think I've done something wrong.

I don't think you've done anything wrong, and I have no bone to pick with you. I'm responding specifically to your post being A) nonsensical and B) a ridiculous threat that you'll "tell on people." Nothing you've ever said before has any influence on my reply to you, I find your post preposterous completely on its own merit.

Rule Number 2 = Stay On Topic

Thanks!

Honestly just was curious/pedantic. You couldn't pay me to muck around in resin chemicals lol.

 Manchu wrote:
Rule Number 2 = Stay On Topic

Thanks!

Is the legality of self-recasts in order to convert IG models on or off topic, and is it allowed on the forum? Honest question, not trying to be funny, and I feel like it pertains to the thread and the people participating.

 Peregrine wrote:
Yes, they expect people to do it. People pay that much for FW infantry squads already. See £35 for a 5-man space marine squad, £43 (plus weapon upgrades) for a DKoK infantry squad, etc. Obviously some people aren't going to be willing to pay that much, but GW does have a target market in mind.

The one that gets me is trying to build a Sisters army, something I looked into a while back. £50 for a squad of 10. Plus another £6-£9 to add the weapon you want, as melta/stormbolter is an odd combination. How about £65 for a Seraphim squad?

 Purifier wrote:
Is the legality of self-recasts in order to convert IG models on or off topic, and is it allowed on the forum? Honest question, not trying to be funny, and I feel like it pertains to the thread and the people participating.

I assume it is more devolving into an argument about the rules which is off topic.

Buy from China. Buy from eBay. Buy from spellcrow. Trade with friends. Order from kromlech. Why bother with gw anymore? Honestly? What have they ever done for you? Yeah, like coke or Pepsi cola, how has gw ever put you and your health and enjoyment ahead of their money? Why do you struggle with giving them more? Brand loyalty is a bugger. Drink water. Screw gw and their enticements without end.

 Purifier wrote:
Is the legality of self-recasts in order to convert IG models on or off topic

Recasting is largely off topic in this thread. The legality of recasting is certainly off topic.

 Purifier wrote:
and is it allowed on the forum?

This is highly contextual. Generally speaking, we have no interest in allowing people to use Dakka Dakka as a platform for justifying, encouraging, or enabling illegal acts.

 Trickstick wrote:
I assume it is more devolving into an argument about the rules which is off topic.

A reasonable conclusion.

That is a pretty good and clear answer.

 Trickstick wrote:

The rules only prohibit the promotion of recasting, not the discussion of it entirely. We can talk about the concept of legality as long as it doesn't stray into promotion. A fine line, to be sure, but not a blanket ban.

Relevant rules post.

The rules post actually confused me a little:

 yakface wrote:

A: The owners of this site do not personally believe that recasting copyrighted models without the copyright holder’s consent (henceforth referred to as 'unauthorized recasting') to be an unacceptable practice. Therefore, as both legal protection for the site and also due to that personal preference, it is imperative that Dakka not be used as a means to promote the concept, process and/or sale of unauthorized recasts, and any forum threads, articles and/or gallery pictures breaking this guideline may be locked or removed without warning.

If you don't believe something to be unacceptable, isn't that another way of saying that you think it's acceptable?

I ask because it just seems to contradict the next sentence - which appears to imply the exact opposite (that they personally believe it to be unacceptable).

Sorry for bringing this up again, but since the rule post was linked I thought I might as well mention it.

Back to the discussion at hand. Some conversions might be easy enough to do without spending a ridiculous amount of money if you already bought the sets for some other reason and have leftover bitz. I bet every AdMech player probably has a ton of leftover Vanguard heads that could be used with standard Neophyte or cadian bodies for some of the conversions.

Back in the Black Gobbo era, the web team had a fabled "bitz bin" (or something along those lines) where it was basically like the money bin of scrooge mcduck, and they could basically create anything out of it. Many people I knew were jelly of that since the estimated cost of someone assembling one of their own was several thousands.

Yeah unless you score a bunch of bits on the cheap from resellers, converting enitre armies is never going to be cheap, I spent about 120$ to make a 10 men squad of stormtroopers, not something I'll do again, no matter how awesome I think they look.

This is why I started collecting multiple armies; you never know when having exactly 10 sets of extra heads on hand could come in handy.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I would rather talk about the kitbashing opportunities presented to us here. Skitarii Vanguard heads on Scion armoured torsos for heavy infantry, Scion heads on GS cult bodies for light infantry (I'm quite interested in that myself).

I'm currently looking at a small guard force to supplement my battle sisters, with the fluff in my head being they're trying to overthrow their planetary Governor who has broken faith with the Imperium after they're cut off by the great rift.

Currently I'm looking or options to kill tough elite infantry, as the Sisters have tanks and light infantry covered fairly handily, but it would be fun to rotate parts around between guard, GSC and scions. My infantry squads/conscripts could be mine workers with hastily scavenged lasguns and scions could be hybridized between guard and scion parts to look more like the armour from Red Spectacles and Jin Roh.

I had a similar experience with the kitbash rough riders I made. Two boxes of cold one knights and plenty of Cadian plastics wasn't too bad, but the hard part was ten pairs of the tank commander legs:



They needed splitting down the middle and a bit of work to make stirrups and stuff but worked great. If I hadn't of had enough old russ kits and a gift of a few from a friend then I would never have been able to make 10 riders. Plus, there is no way I could make another 20-30 plus a command squad using that method, it would just be too expensive.

 Trickstick wrote:
I had a similar experience with the kitbash rough riders I made. Two boxes of cold one knights and plenty of Cadian plastics wasn't too bad, but the hard part was ten pairs of the tank commander legs:

Spoiler:

They needed splitting down the middle and a bit of work to make stirrups and stuff but worked great. If I hadn't of had enough old russ kits and a gift of a few from a friend then I would never have been able to make 10 riders. Plus, there is no way I could make another 20-30 plus a command squad using that method, it would just be too expensive.

If it weren't for the fact that there is no point anymore as the riders seem to be getting squatted, I'd tell you to use Skitarii dunestrider rider legs. Got a few myself off a bitz site when I wanted to make bikers for my skitarii force.

They been doing this in old codex's and white dwarfs for 20yrs.....

This is literally what they do all the time, its a fun suggestion.

I used them with dkok death rider rules, which should be around for a while.

I bought something like 55 heads for about $20+ shipping on [popular online auction site]. I was toying with maybe having a bunch of un-helmeted heads commissioned or something. Til then everyone gets helmets lol.

I'm already trying to find ways to cheaply turn Freeguild Greatswords into a dapper regiment of my own. Problem is I want to keep the puffy sleeves but the pose they're in is not exactly forgiving to gun-based conversions.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I'm already trying to find ways to cheaply turn Freeguild Greatswords into a dapper regiment of my own. Problem is I want to keep the puffy sleeves but the pose they're in is not exactly forgiving to gun-based conversions.

Could you have them with lasguns slung and melee weapons out? May look a bit like fanasy models with lasguns stuck on them though.

Possibly. It does give me the hilarious mental image of an entire army of Jack Churchills.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Possibly. It does give me the hilarious mental image of an entire army of Jack Churchills.

Hilarious, yet strangely awesome as well.

Well, I'm going to convert my own conscripts, mostly because a full conscripts squad of metal Armageddon Steel Legion troopers would be silly expensive, I want the conscripts to look like they have literally been given a gun, some armour, a grenade and sent off to fight.

So, I'm gonna use the Genestealer Cults Neophytes box, carve off the cult symbols, use the chem trooper heads from MaxMini, human arms, and hey presto - a PDF style conscripts squad that uses different equipment (so it's not just copy paste) but more like workers/Gangers/criminals pressed into action.

Total cost will be around £24 for 10, but I'll have plenty of bitz left over for Necromunda, satisfy the majority rule for using them in a GW store, and I'll actually end up with 10 soldiers rather than 7, as the Steel Legion squad comes with a missile launcher team and a grenade launcher. Useful, but not so much you end up with more than you can realistically use!

I might do that conversion but use them as Scions or vets instead.

Then I can use the steam tank as a Taurox.

I like the fact that it at least gives some ideas for conversion, right now I really want to get a box of neophytes just to see where I can go with them (and no clear goal in mind, I already have a million cadians, steel legion, and valhallans). I dont see why they WOULDN'T sell bits individually, if they parceled them out at 3rd party sellers prices (plus they would always be in stock) they would make a mint, way more than if they tried to get us buy new kits for that single part instead of going to bit sellers online.

 lolman1c wrote:
So my friend was talking to me about his IG army and how in the new codex it suggests ways you can create some regiments out of gw peices. He was pretty excited for this as he hates having the basic few models as guardsmen. However, he soon worked out it could cost upwards of £50-100 just for one 10 man squad?! Does GW really expect us to buy this stuff? Or do they expect us to already have the bits or ask for them from other players? (Because the avarge players doesn't play that many factions at once and some of these bits are needed to complete a model so i doubt people will just give them up) Even If you went to alternative bits companies their stocks are random and could take you many many months to create that dream regiment of yours! So really gw has just wasted their time with what was probably a genuine attempt to encourage customisable units but ended up looking, to me and my friend, like an old GW cash grab attempt from players who spend more money on 40k than I earn a year.

Why didn't GW just bring out a box of bits ready for you to make your own gaurds using their suggestions?

GW's legal department would never allow them to so much as even hint other companies exist, so 3rd party bits are out. So how do they show all the different IG regiments out there if they must use GW parts? They kitbash.

I honestly believe this is just to get you inspired, in a way that the legal department wouldnt shut down. No, I cant afford empire pistolliers to convert my cadians, but I bet I could find some perry historicals that work for example. Basically this is the best we're going to get, and is essentially the author saying "hey we know you guys love to covert new regiments, heres some inspiration to work with that we thought looked cool with what we had on hand."

As to why they havent released new kits I have no idea, you could put out 3 boxes and cover an entire regiment's infantry line, with an HQ/vets/specialty box, an infantry squad box, and a heavy weapon box, with some things like vehicle crew bits sprinkled in so you can cover the rest of the range's vehicles as well. With how jam packed their sprues have been lately they could easily cover every option infantry have and even bring back some old favorites like melta bombs or shotguns.

My only guess is they assume the 3rd party scene has cornered the market and theres no point trying to compete, especially since a brand new GW infantry squad box would probably cost $41 given GW's current pricing scheme. Granted that's not stopped many people from going to Victoria Lamb, Anvil, Mad Robot, Max Mini, Kromlech, and dozens of other companies, but these types are the big soenders and odds are theyre "tapped" as a market for the most part in GW's mind. While Regiment kits could probably cover their cost relatively easily over time, thy wouldnt make nearly as big a splash as a new faction, unit, or literally anything space marines, so GW sees it as something for the backburner on a rainyday.

They did however mention they were looking at making new models to represent diversity in the 40k universe (aka women for factions that dont have them represented with minis) so my guess is thats IG, Eldar, Inquisition, and Tau, since we all know plastic sisters are never getting released

 generalchaos34 wrote:
I dont see why they WOULDN'T sell bits individually

The moulds cast sprues as complete things, which they then box up and sell. They do not have the option of only producing loads of, for example, Catachan heads without producing new moulds. That means that if they sold individual bits then a lot of other bits would go to waste, as some parts of kits are going to be a lot more popular. Imagine how many wasted bits there would be left over after they has taken the plasma guns out of a kit and sold them off individually.

Add to that the massive logistical nightmare that separating all of the bits, packaging them and such would be and I can believe that it is just not economically viable to do. I don't know how many people remember but GW did used to sell bits individually. Every part had a code and you used to be able to get catalogues and order whatever combination of parts you likes. They stopped that, probably due to how uneconomical it was.

Honestly I have so many ideas for converting guard right now but due to the cost of the models they'd all end up being played as Scions one way or another (I also want to make an all-female regiment with Sisters of Avelorn).

Not at all helped by the fact that Scions have a bad rap right now.

Funny that people complained for so long that GW stopped including 'conversions' in White Dwarf... this community is so ridiculous.

Let's say you have a friend that has AdMech and built a lot of Rangers. They kept all their bits and they have tons of Vanguard heads. You're building your Astra Militarum and you're like "Hey, can I take some of those heads you're not using?"

Your friend goes, "Sure, be my guest." And voila, you've got a convertible bit that you can use to make your guardsmen look different.

Many 40k players have been in the game for a long time. They've got tons of bits that they've collected, just from parts that were extras for models they got. That's all it boils down to. If you have it, go for it.

If you do want to go and convert up other things from scratch, though, yeah, it'll cost a pretty penny, either buying the kits outright or by getting the bits some other way.

Either way, I'm glad to see GW encouraging conversions.

Do you want to represent something that GW doesn't make a model for? Then yes, you have to convert it, using their suggestions or not. Rocket science.

I love how everyone has a consumer mind set here... they go straight to defend gw rather than thinking of way to improve it. Even if gw was a next to perfect company you should alway be critical and thinks of they they can improve to help and benefit you as the consumer.

 lolman1c wrote:
I love how everyone has a consumer mind set here... they go straight to defend gw rather than thinking of way to improve it. Even if gw was a next to perfect company you should alway be critical and thinks of they they can improve to help and benefit you as the consumer.

Don't go down for the "People that disagree with me about a point I'm critizing of GW are mind-washed by their marketing machine".
People disagree with you. They are encouraging conversions, and as others have pointed out, they aren't telling you the components to replicate those conversions. The fact that they encourage kit-bashing and converting is a good sing.

People that expect GW to use 3rd party parts in their official publications have just lost-their mind. No business do that. Free advertisement for direct competition? Thats bollocks.

 lolman1c wrote:
I love how everyone has a consumer mind set here... they go straight to defend gw rather than thinking of way to improve it. Even if gw was a next to perfect company you should alway be critical and thinks of they they can improve to help and benefit you as the consumer.

What does this even mean? How do you propose for GW to improve this situation apart from releasing completely different lines for every imaginable IG regiment or simply acting like conversions don't exist and only encouraging everyone to use stock models?

GW makes the vehicle upgrade spruce and various marine upgrades.

Why don't they make a couple of diff upgrades for guard?

I'd be all for GW making upgrade sprues of all types. I get the feeling that people would still call it an evil act of Capitalism because they'd have to buy regular IG kits and then a seperate upgrade sprue if they wanted to make something other than standard guard units.

 Gunzhard wrote:
Funny that people complained for so long that GW stopped including 'conversions' in White Dwarf... this community is so ridiculous.

I never understand this point when I see it. Some people complain about one thing, then other people complain about a different thing. It isn't like any community is one homogeneous mind that has a single opinion. The negative opinions are also more prevalent than the positive, as fewer people are motivated to post "everything is fine at the moment" posts.

kitbashing, by definition, uses existing kits to make something new that was not intended. Upgrade sprues specifically designed for that would no longer be kitbashing or even conversions really.

Plus it's not like these kinds of conversions don't exist. Eldar Exodites are basically extremely expensive alternative to craftworld eldar models, but no one raises a fuss about that.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Plus it's not like these kinds of conversions don't exist. Eldar Exodites are basically extremely expensive alternative to craftworld eldar models, but no one raises a fuss about that.

It's because most people never considered making a kitbash army, it was just something cool you would see occasionally. However, by putting these in the codex the have teased what a cool army you could have. Combine that with the age of the current IG line and people are a bit annoyed that the great looking army they want is pretty insane to actually build.

 Trickstick wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
I dont see why they WOULDN'T sell bits individually

The moulds cast sprues as complete things, which they then box up and sell. They do not have the option of only producing loads of, for example, Catachan heads without producing new moulds. That means that if they sold individual bits then a lot of other bits would go to waste, as some parts of kits are going to be a lot more popular. Imagine how many wasted bits there would be left over after they has taken the plasma guns out of a kit and sold them off individually.

Add to that the massive logistical nightmare that separating all of the bits, packaging them and such would be and I can believe that it is just not economically viable to do. I don't know how many people remember but GW did used to sell bits individually. Every part had a code and you used to be able to get catalogues and order whatever combination of parts you likes. They stopped that, probably due to how uneconomical it was.

I could imagine that it wouldnt be hard to pay a couple of min wage high school kids to clip sprues all day then throw them into a corresponding bin. then when someone makes an order they go to bin #xy, extract the number needed then bag it up and put it in a padded envelope with some obscene shipping charge. Maybe even put a picture on the bin to make sure its the right one.

I guess it's just me but this is not that different from the old conversion sections from old codexes.

I remember how the 3rd edition Nids codex showed a GS converted gaunt with 6 eyes (3 on each side) as an example of converting enhanced senses. For the Entire Unit. That would require an insane amount of effort to reproduce on each gaunt, but that was sort of the asking price of the hobby.

 generalchaos34 wrote:
I could imagine that it wouldnt be hard to pay a couple of min wage high school kids to clip sprues all day then throw them into a corresponding bin. then when someone makes an order they go to bin #xy, extract the number needed then bag it up and put it in a padded envelope with some obscene shipping charge. Maybe even put a picture on the bin to make sure its the right one.

Honestly, that is not how logistics work. The costs of doing anything is much more than that, especially for a company the size of GW. Then you have the issue of quality control. If you just have people clipping components, then you are going to get an not insignificant number of returns. Add to that all of the extra back end stuff you would need and it is complicated. That doesn't even address the massive waste you would have from certain components being more popular than others on the same sprue.

generalchaos34 wrote:

I could imagine that it wouldnt be hard to pay a couple of min wage high school kids to clip sprues all day then throw them into a corresponding bin. then when someone makes an order they go to bin #xy, extract the number needed then bag it up and put it in a padded envelope with some obscene shipping charge. Maybe even put a picture on the bin to make sure its the right one.

They used to do exactly that. For years you could order any bit you wanted from any kit directly from GW by mail order, and then later directly through their web store. It was glorious. Definitely a shame they don't do it any more, but the good news is there are a bunch of people out there who make a living doing exactly the same thing.

Trickstick wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Plus it's not like these kinds of conversions don't exist. Eldar Exodites are basically extremely expensive alternative to craftworld eldar models, but no one raises a fuss about that.

It's because most people never considered making a kitbash army, it was just something cool you would see occasionally. However, by putting these in the codex the have teased what a cool army you could have. Combine that with the age of the current IG line and people are a bit annoyed that the great looking army they want is pretty insane to actually build.

Holy gak, guys. So GW just should have kept a lid on the fact that you can combine bits from different kits, and NOT shown cool conversions in the codex? Then everything would have been better because no one would have known it was possible to put x head on y body, and thusly felt entitled to do so with no additional expense or effort required?

 Luciferian wrote:
Holy gak, guys. So GW just should have kept a lid on the fact that you can combine bits from different kits, and NOT shown cool conversions in the codex? Then everything would have been better because no one would have known it was possible to put x head on y body, and thusly felt entitled to do so with no additional expense or effort required?

I was not saying that they shouldn't have done it. I was simply theorising what has lead to some people feeling let down by the current plastic kit options and that the awesome looking force they saw is beyond their grasp.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
Holy gak, guys. So GW just should have kept a lid on the fact that you can combine bits from different kits, and NOT shown cool conversions in the codex? Then everything would have been better because no one would have known it was possible to put x head on y body, and thusly felt entitled to do so with no additional expense or effort required?

I was not saying that they shouldn't have done it. I was simply theorising what has lead to some people feeling let down by the current plastic kit options and that the awesome looking force they saw is beyond their grasp.

That is sort of the pain of Guard conversions no matter what. As one of their three premier horde armies (the other being nids and orks) it's really hard to actually get a cost-effective conversion for your line troops when your basic troops are already the cheapest in the range. In 4th edition main rulebook there was actually a conversion example of some chaos mutants using guard rules that had, among other things, Space Marine parts in them. Come to think of it the only time when they did make a cost-effective guard conversion, it was the Mutant horde from Eye of Terror from way back in 3rd edition, and even then it was only marginally cheaper than the basic guard because you ended up having to use Ork Heads for torsos.

If you can't do cheap, at least make it look good, which is what GW did here. Plus it's not like all of the conversions are ridiculously expensive; the Ork Hunters (if I remember) are basically catachans mixed with Chaos Marauder axes. That's a pretty easy and cheap conversion (since the marauders add a bit of variation on the catachan vest combo and have plenty of extra hands).

 Trickstick wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
Funny that people complained for so long that GW stopped including 'conversions' in White Dwarf... this community is so ridiculous.

I never understand this point when I see it. Some people complain about one thing, then other people complain about a different thing. It isn't like any community is one homogeneous mind that has a single opinion. The negative opinions are also more prevalent than the positive, as fewer people are motivated to post "everything is fine at the moment" posts.

Well c'mon now, GW got a lot of flack for ignoring conversions over the last few years, this was very likely a reaction to that - and here it is immediately met by complaints. Of course different people can want different things, that's really a daft statement; the real point is, this community IS ridiculous. As exhibit A) I present Dakka '40k General Discussion' subforum; or really any other 40K forum/blog over the life of the game/forums.

For the record I'm not one of those, GW is perfect, the Community is the problem people; I am a GW is imperfect, the Community is the problem person, because that's reality.

 Gunzhard wrote:
Well c'mon now, GW got a lot of flack for ignoring conversions over the last few years, this was very likely a reaction to that - and here it is immediately met by complaints. Of course different people can want different things, that's really a daft statement; the real point is, this community IS ridiculous. As exhibit A) I present Dakka '40k General Discussion' subforum; or really any other 40K forum/blog over the life of the game/forums.

For the record I'm not one of those, GW is perfect, the Community is the problem people; I am a GW is imperfect, the Community is the problem person, because that's reality.

I'm sorry, I still just don't understand. How are people voicing their displeasure at something "ridiculous"? With any change, some people are going to think it was bad. They are usually the ones to start a conversation about it, as most people are more motivated to post when annoyed about something. This can lead to the assumption that the forum as a whole is against something, which is really just not the case. Yes, you get a lot of rather silly individual posts and arguments but trying to extrapolate that over an entire message board seems silly. You get the same thing externally, with people generalising boards with sweeping statements. It just seems weird to me.

It's kinda "ridiculous" because one of the biggest complains for almost a decade now is that GW started removing hobby material, specifically conversions, from their publications around the middle of 5th edition. Since Conversions is an intrinsic part of the hobby and that was roughly when GW went down the toilet, most people deemed that to be the point where GW forgot about it's hobby roots and became a real, souless corporation. People have been asking for it to come back for a long time and now that it has, we have people complaining it's a bad thing.

From GW's perspective of things, it basically means our community is a bunch of nitwits since they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. And if that's what they think they're liable to jump right back into their old ways of completely not listening to the community (which is even worse).

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's kinda "ridiculous" because one of the biggest complains for almost a decade now is that GW started removing hobby material, specifically conversions, from their publications around the middle of 5th edition. Since Conversions is an intrinsic part of the hobby and that was roughly when GW went down the toilet, most people deemed that to be the point where GW forgot about it's hobby roots and became a real, souless corporation. People have been asking for it to come back for a long time and now that it has, we have people complaining it's a bad thing.

From GW's perspective of things, it basically means our community is a bunch of nitwits since they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. And if that's what they think they're liable to jump right back into their old ways of completely not listening to the community (which is even worse).

Totally agree. I realize it might "seem weird" ...but there is literally, actual context here. GW has, on more than one occasion, reached the limit of warp-gazing-insanity that is this community and just tuned out the static noise.

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
I dont see why they WOULDN'T sell bits individually

The moulds cast sprues as complete things, which they then box up and sell. They do not have the option of only producing loads of, for example, Catachan heads without producing new moulds. That means that if they sold individual bits then a lot of other bits would go to waste, as some parts of kits are going to be a lot more popular. Imagine how many wasted bits there would be left over after they has taken the plasma guns out of a kit and sold them off individually.

Add to that the massive logistical nightmare that separating all of the bits, packaging them and such would be and I can believe that it is just not economically viable to do. I don't know how many people remember but GW did used to sell bits individually. Every part had a code and you used to be able to get catalogues and order whatever combination of parts you likes. They stopped that, probably due to how uneconomical it was.

I could imagine that it wouldnt be hard to pay a couple of min wage high school kids to clip sprues all day then throw them into a corresponding bin. then when someone makes an order they go to bin #xy, extract the number needed then bag it up and put it in a padded envelope with some obscene shipping charge. Maybe even put a picture on the bin to make sure its the right one.

You are forgetting the fact that some bits are far more popular than others. Its specifically why most bits sites will have 0 of one bit you are looking for while having 4 or 5 of a less popular bit from the same kit. If each individual part from the kit does not sell at an equal rate, they will either be A) constantly out of stock of the part until they reach an "acceptable" level for all bits, or B) vastly overstocked on several bits that will either go to waste or waste up space.

Just with Guard for an example, what do you think will sell faster - the plasmagun that comes with the Tempestus Scions kit, or the grenade launcher? And what of parts that are used in multiple weapons? For example, I believe Scions' melta guns and hot shot volley guns both use an off arm from a regular hellgun. Are those sold separately or do they sell them in a pair or trio? And what of regions - do they just have a bitz bin located in the UK that ships worldwide, or do they burn the space to have a bitz bin of every kit they sell in each region?

Is it an insurmountable issue? Probably not, but it is inconvenient enough that I can see why GW doesn't do it.

Basically, that's why the old bitz order was made in metal; the bits were cast to order and very rarely stockpiled. It's one of the few perks that Metal models had over finecast or plastic (although not over resin in general, since theoretically you could cast those to order as well given that other places don't put them all on one sprue).

EDIT: I'm talking about GW casting these bitz, not home casting.

Best not pursue the recasting convos lest the mods get annoyed.

I went the fantasy/40K kitbash route. All my Guardsmen have Outrider heads (damn you GeeDubs for nicking my idea haha). I used the horses for Rough Riders and the torsos and weapons to convert Regiment-themed Scions. I bought three Outrider/Pistoliers boxes in all for about £15 a box. They have provided heads for around 50 models, torsos for 15 Scions and assorted officers, and horses for 10 Rough Riders. I eBayed the last 5 horses I didn't use. Results in my sig.

If you're smart about how you plan your conversions it can end up not costing dramatically more, provided you use as many parts as possible. The GW Codex examples are pretty crazy in some cases... Land Speeder bit backpack? Fine for one guy maybe but a battalion? Nope.

You can also swap with someone. If a friend wants Genestealers Hybrid heads to convert Cadians and you want bodies to make a custom regiment, buy together.

Missed opportunity for them to release regiment kits.

I would have been happy with regiment upgrade sprues even. A pack of 10-20 heads with torso's to compliment the desired regiment, with the cadian box as the base for everything else.

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Missed opportunity for them to release regiment kits.

I would have been happy with regiment upgrade sprues even. A pack of 10-20 heads with torso's to compliment the desired regiment, with the cadian box as the base for everything else.

^This. I don't understand GW's reasoning on this issue. They knew darn well the community wanted new IG plastics. We have been asking for it for years. Everyone was talking about it leading up to the codex release and we got nothing. After waiting nearly 2 decades, I finally gave up & spent $300.00 on third party bits. I would have gladly paid twice that for updated regiment plastic kits from GW.

 Commissar Benny wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Missed opportunity for them to release regiment kits.

I would have been happy with regiment upgrade sprues even. A pack of 10-20 heads with torso's to compliment the desired regiment, with the cadian box as the base for everything else.

^This. I don't understand GW's reasoning on this issue. They knew darn well the community wanted new IG plastics. We have been asking for it for years. Everyone was talking about it leading up to the codex release and we got nothing. After waiting nearly 2 decades, I finally gave up & spent $300.00 on third party bits. I would have gladly paid twice that for updated regiment plastic kits from GW.

I honestly think this is why we don't get new regiment kits.

Think about the sheer amount of competition GW would be facing trying to muscle its way back into the Imperial Guard model market when there's so much competition out there. They're beaten on price by historicals conversions, they're beaten on quality and options by high profile offerings like Vic, and there are hundreds of options everywhere in between, even in plastic. Gw's only advantage at that point is that they are name brand, which only really seems to be an issue in England, as in America most people play at 3rd party stores that don't care.

So when GW looks at making new kits, they can make an IG set of 3 or so boxes that has a stiff amount of competition and already has most of it's potential buyers bought out, or it can just release a new space marine box and watch it sell out overnight.

I hate to be the cynical guy but I know which I would pick if I was trying to make money.

Other thing is shelf space, and we already know that stores, especially GW's, struggle to find shelf space for everything as is. The guard range is pretty big already, and having spaces get taken up by what are essentially duplicates of the same kit (and directly competing with one another) means we'll probably never see regiment kits in plastic. They'll continue to be a metal option online and through Forgeworld, but that's about it. I'd love to be proven wrong but when you think about it from a business point of view it makes sense.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I honestly think this is why we don't get new regiment kits. Think about the sheer amount of competition GW would be facing trying to muscle its way back into the Imperial Guard model market when there's so much competition out there. They're beaten on price by historicals conversions, they're beaten on quality and options by high profile offerings like Vic, and there are hundreds of options everywhere in between, even in plastic. Gw's only advantage at that point is that they are name brand, which only really seems to be an issue in England, as in America most people play at 3rd party stores that don't care.

So when GW looks at making new kits, they can make an IG set of 3 or so boxes that has a stiff amount of competition and already has most of it's potential buyers bought out, or it can just release a new space marine box and watch it sell out overnight.

I hate to be the cynical guy but I know which I would pick if I was trying to make money.

Other thing is shelf space, and we already know that stores, especially GW's, struggle to find shelf space for everything as is. The guard range is pretty big already, and having spaces get taken up by what are essentially duplicates of the same kit (and directly competing with one another) means we'll probably never see regiment kits in plastic. They'll continue to be a metal option online and through Forgeworld, but that's about it. I'd love to be proven wrong but when you think about it from a business point of view it makes sense.

I agree that there is certainly a lot of competition in the IG market right now. Lots of 3rd party retailers are making a killing. Would they be if GW actually gave their existing ranges proper support though? I mean, most of the IG infantry range is pewter metal. Nearly 20 years old. I wouldn't have bought 3rd party if GW actually offered an alternative. I've written them letters. Emailed them. Literally spent thousands of dollars on their product only to be met with silence or "not enough interest". I've exhausted all options.

I also agree that store space is limited. It would be difficult to find shelf space for all the different IG regiments. That said I've always had to order my stuff online for years as its never in stock on the shelves, whether it be terrain or IG models. I think that is more of a logistics problem GW has in general rather than an IG specific issue.

You bring up a lot of valid points. Money obviously being the driving factor. Which leads me to my final point. How much profit does GW need to make on a project in order for them to deem it an worthwhile investment? 200%? 300%? 1000%? It seems to me that these days anything that doesn't generate space marine profit is just sidelined.

A compromise could be,

make new infantry kits for the cadians and the catachans. Ones that are more in line with their command squad boxes. And keep the vostroyians in circulation. So we now have three quite different regiments quick to hand, each one with an infantry, command and weapon team box.

Then, release regiment upgrade kits for whatever regiments you can manage out of that. Sprues with alternative heads and weapons, plus officer and tank crew parts too, that can be used to convert the cadians.

 Commissar Benny wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Missed opportunity for them to release regiment kits.

I would have been happy with regiment upgrade sprues even. A pack of 10-20 heads with torso's to compliment the desired regiment, with the cadian box as the base for everything else.

^This. I don't understand GW's reasoning on this issue. They knew darn well the community wanted new IG plastics. We have been asking for it for years. Everyone was talking about it leading up to the codex release and we got nothing. After waiting nearly 2 decades, I finally gave up & spent $300.00 on third party bits. I would have gladly paid twice that for updated regiment plastic kits from GW.

GW's reasoning is pretty clearly they're getting out all the 8th ed codexes ASAP, and there aren't going to be models attached to any of them (save for the odd special character repack). So they were thinking that with the Guard codex.

Once we've got through the first two model range releases this year, we'll get a third model range and so and so forth, but they will probably only connect to a Codex release by co-incidence. So the Guard codex doesn't rule out some new Guard models soonish.

A scenario in which Sisters (I know, but making a foolhardy assumption the rumours are true this time) ship after Christmas, we have no idea what the next model range is. For all we know, some Guard upgrade sprues that help you to make different regiments could be coming in March/April time. And that would be neat! And absolutely worth asking GW for too - it's a plausible enough ask that they'd sell greatcoat torsos/a few legs to add on to the Cadian kits like they do Marine upgrade sprues. It just seems silly to complain that GW are featuring conversions to inspire people to look through their bits boxes and come up with interesting new regiments again.

Especially when, under the 8th ed rules, smaller Guard forces allied to larger formations (such as Genestealer Cult or other Imperial armies) are perfectly plausible. Not many people are going to build a £700 army of these regiments, but some people may well throw together a few squads for a small allied detachment.

Lord Perversor wrote:

Spoiler:

Imagination goes a long way for conversions!!

That is epic! ... In a very very strange way!

I also agree in a sense with the "competition" GW might be up against by releasing Guard upgrade bitz, but, I feel that many people, if given the chance, would prefer to have the “official” bitz in their conversions rather than a 3rd party bit. This is simply down to confidence in the product and knowing that it’s been designed to match with existing items. It is generally also easier to order and organise.

I think I’m going to bite the bullet and use GW bits myself. I’ve got some test kits on order so I’ll see how they look before making my mind up.

Thing with Guard is that, unlike marines, an "upgrade" kit is not really good for anyone; Guard are so different that they're better off making entirely new sculpts instead of making an upgrade kit for Catachans or Cadians. Like just comparing Mordians to Cadians, the former would require a new torso, pair of arms and heads. Might as well just get a new set of legs and make a completely new set at that point. Marines are better for upgrade sprues because no matter what chapter the marine is from, his power armor is largely the same.

If GW does really want to encourage people making up their own regiments, they need to come up with a different approach to their Guard line. Instead of making a full set of bodies on a single sprue, they need to divide them up. A sprue containing only one type of heads, a sprue with only one type of torsos, a sprue with only one type of arms, a sprue with only one type of legs, etc. This would be like the third party bitz and let you mix and match without having to buy an entire set of guard bitz that you will never use. They can then package these together to make "Cadians", "Catachans", "Mordians" and so forth, and/or sell them individually via bitz order so people who really want their own regiment can just order the pieces they like (or even just order the arms they like and use existing AoS models or something else).

How hard is it to sell one sprue of a box like other companies do. For 8 bucks I got one for Bolt Action Marines and used that for my Airborne, using the pulled up sleeves for them.

Apparently very hard. Even when I'm just trying to get a replacement sprue for something they forgot to pack, they just opt to send me an entirely new box instead (although I do really appreciate the extra stuff they give me).

However the way GW cuts their sprues is also the issue. one of their modern sprues would probably have one leg on one sprue and the only other matching, fitting leg on the other sprue.

The GSC upgrade sprue seems like such a good idea, I don't understand why they don't follow it up.

Really you could have 8 guard armies that just use the cadian or catachan torso and legs, and have head and shoulder upgrade sprues for the rest.

If these small time companies can produce these new model lines, why the heck can't GW?

Are there any rules for running the kitbashed forces? I haven't paid attention, but I saw Warhammer Community running summaries of the way you could play Cadians, Catachans, Vostroyans, etc; are there rules/strategems for any army that doesn't have miniatures, metal or otherwise?

Forge World seems like the possible solution, but I don't think they would create upgrade kits to anything without rules in either main studio or Forge World indexes.

 Tim the Biovore wrote:
Are there any rules for running the kitbashed forces? I haven't paid attention, but I saw Warhammer Community running summaries of the way you could play Cadians, Catachans, Vostroyans, etc; are there rules/strategems for any army that doesn't have miniatures, metal or otherwise?

Forge World seems like the possible solution, but I don't think they would create upgrade kits to anything without rules in either main studio or Forge World indexes.

You can still have a kitbashed Cadian army for example. It all works exactly the same as home brew successor chapters.

I think the only ruling really is try to be wysiwyg, have visual identifications if you are mixing and matching regiments and, if playing at a GW store/event, make sure you arent full of 3rd party minis.

@Kdash
Ah, fair enough. I was wondering more if there was in anyway a WSIWYG advantage in official tournaments for running those sorts of regiments, in a sort of pay-to-win type fashion.

I don't think it would be too unrealistic to believe Forge World might come out with purely aesthetic upgrade kits at some time in the future for the various distinctive regiments. They still have the Freeguild Manann's Blades upgrade kit, even though they no longer have special rules (to my knowledge)

 argonak wrote:
The GSC upgrade sprue seems like such a good idea, I don't understand why they don't follow it up.

Really you could have 8 guard armies that just use the cadian or catachan torso and legs, and have head and shoulder upgrade sprues for the rest.

If these small time companies can produce these new model lines, why the heck can't GW?

Because they sell overall less if they do that.

The reason for why a lot of kits have become dual kits is because they sell overall more plastic than if they were single kits. Realistically, kits sharing parts should have the shared parts be put on a separate sprue, while the kits themselves only pack the bare necessity needed to make what's on the box (this is how some early gundam kits are made. Check out the small Mercurius and Vayeate sets). But dual-kits means they will sell you 1 full kit + half of another kit (and charge you accordingly) when you really just wanted the 1. Some of the worst offenders is the Assault Marines kit (where if you just had 5 extra legs, you could make 10 marines instead of 5 from the box alone) and the Crypt Horrors (where the only thing they share is the leg and front of the torso). Other ones are more justified, like the Leman russ kits (where you kinda do want the other "variations" because they're just weapon options and easily magentized.

The problem is that the named IG Regiments are all too different. No other army has this problem.

If GW were doing the iconic Regiments today, I can guarantee you they would be much more similar. Probably only head and torso swaps at most.

It's just a suggestion not a requirement. After playing for a while everybody starts to have a fair sized collection of bits and friends with collections of bits.

Prior to the 2nd Ed diversification, IG of course had a uniform, erm...uniform. This one.



Now, the Cadian look is clearly descended from this, and the others are somewhat more idealised and esoteric.

I've often wondered if GW regret diversifying in that way? Not saying they shouldn't have. All variety is good variety for me. Just a pondering.

This takes me back. I remember killing these guys with my Mk6 beaky marines.

The ones on the bottom look like a constipated wolverine. I love em.

I don't honestly think GW expects folks to build whole regiments based off their conversions in the Dex but its a good showing of what kind of results can be achieved with just GW kits.

As the owner of a converted guard army I fully understand how
expensive it can be to kitbash. For every guardsman I use at mininum three kits, from three different armies, thats basic guardsmen, Sgts and officers are usually sporting peices from five, six or even seven, GW kits and then theres all the 3rd party parts for things like heavy weapon teams, veterans, sentinels and bullgryn.Its pretty much like anything else you can get customized, its going to be more expensive than the base product, thinking otherwise is setting yourself up for disappointment.

On the plus side though is that its really easy to budget a custom guard army once you figure out the pieces and everything needed by doing single squad purchases and shopping around bits sellers. There is also that if you're bugeting squads out one at a time you can do buy, build, paint, buy, pretty easily and have steady growth of your regiment as opposed to a bulk buy, them build, then sit and stare at the grey horde.