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 lolman1c wrote:
So my friend was talking to me about his IG army and how in the new codex it suggests ways you can create some regiments out of gw peices. He was pretty excited for this as he hates having the basic few models as guardsmen. However, he soon worked out it could cost upwards of £50-100 just for one 10 man squad?! Does GW really expect us to buy this stuff? Or do they expect us to already have the bits or ask for them from other players? (Because the avarge players doesn't play that many factions at once and some of these bits are needed to complete a model so i doubt people will just give them up) Even If you went to alternative bits companies their stocks are random and could take you many many months to create that dream regiment of yours! So really gw has just wasted their time with what was probably a genuine attempt to encourage customisable units but ended up looking, to me and my friend, like an old GW cash grab attempt from players who spend more money on 40k than I earn a year.

Why didn't GW just bring out a box of bits ready for you to make your own gaurds using their suggestions?

GW's legal department would never allow them to so much as even hint other companies exist, so 3rd party bits are out. So how do they show all the different IG regiments out there if they must use GW parts? They kitbash.

I honestly believe this is just to get you inspired, in a way that the legal department wouldnt shut down. No, I cant afford empire pistolliers to convert my cadians, but I bet I could find some perry historicals that work for example. Basically this is the best we're going to get, and is essentially the author saying "hey we know you guys love to covert new regiments, heres some inspiration to work with that we thought looked cool with what we had on hand."

As to why they havent released new kits I have no idea, you could put out 3 boxes and cover an entire regiment's infantry line, with an HQ/vets/specialty box, an infantry squad box, and a heavy weapon box, with some things like vehicle crew bits sprinkled in so you can cover the rest of the range's vehicles as well. With how jam packed their sprues have been lately they could easily cover every option infantry have and even bring back some old favorites like melta bombs or shotguns.

My only guess is they assume the 3rd party scene has cornered the market and theres no point trying to compete, especially since a brand new GW infantry squad box would probably cost $41 given GW's current pricing scheme. Granted that's not stopped many people from going to Victoria Lamb, Anvil, Mad Robot, Max Mini, Kromlech, and dozens of other companies, but these types are the big soenders and odds are theyre "tapped" as a market for the most part in GW's mind. While Regiment kits could probably cover their cost relatively easily over time, thy wouldnt make nearly as big a splash as a new faction, unit, or literally anything space marines, so GW sees it as something for the backburner on a rainyday.

They did however mention they were looking at making new models to represent diversity in the 40k universe (aka women for factions that dont have them represented with minis) so my guess is thats IG, Eldar, Inquisition, and Tau, since we all know plastic sisters are never getting released

 generalchaos34 wrote:
I dont see why they WOULDN'T sell bits individually

The moulds cast sprues as complete things, which they then box up and sell. They do not have the option of only producing loads of, for example, Catachan heads without producing new moulds. That means that if they sold individual bits then a lot of other bits would go to waste, as some parts of kits are going to be a lot more popular. Imagine how many wasted bits there would be left over after they has taken the plasma guns out of a kit and sold them off individually.

Add to that the massive logistical nightmare that separating all of the bits, packaging them and such would be and I can believe that it is just not economically viable to do. I don't know how many people remember but GW did used to sell bits individually. Every part had a code and you used to be able to get catalogues and order whatever combination of parts you likes. They stopped that, probably due to how uneconomical it was.

Honestly I have so many ideas for converting guard right now but due to the cost of the models they'd all end up being played as Scions one way or another (I also want to make an all-female regiment with Sisters of Avelorn).

Not at all helped by the fact that Scions have a bad rap right now.

Funny that people complained for so long that GW stopped including 'conversions' in White Dwarf... this community is so ridiculous.

Let's say you have a friend that has AdMech and built a lot of Rangers. They kept all their bits and they have tons of Vanguard heads. You're building your Astra Militarum and you're like "Hey, can I take some of those heads you're not using?"

Your friend goes, "Sure, be my guest." And voila, you've got a convertible bit that you can use to make your guardsmen look different.

Many 40k players have been in the game for a long time. They've got tons of bits that they've collected, just from parts that were extras for models they got. That's all it boils down to. If you have it, go for it.

If you do want to go and convert up other things from scratch, though, yeah, it'll cost a pretty penny, either buying the kits outright or by getting the bits some other way.

Either way, I'm glad to see GW encouraging conversions.

Do you want to represent something that GW doesn't make a model for? Then yes, you have to convert it, using their suggestions or not. Rocket science.

I love how everyone has a consumer mind set here... they go straight to defend gw rather than thinking of way to improve it. Even if gw was a next to perfect company you should alway be critical and thinks of they they can improve to help and benefit you as the consumer.

 lolman1c wrote:
I love how everyone has a consumer mind set here... they go straight to defend gw rather than thinking of way to improve it. Even if gw was a next to perfect company you should alway be critical and thinks of they they can improve to help and benefit you as the consumer.

Don't go down for the "People that disagree with me about a point I'm critizing of GW are mind-washed by their marketing machine".
People disagree with you. They are encouraging conversions, and as others have pointed out, they aren't telling you the components to replicate those conversions. The fact that they encourage kit-bashing and converting is a good sing.

People that expect GW to use 3rd party parts in their official publications have just lost-their mind. No business do that. Free advertisement for direct competition? Thats bollocks.

 lolman1c wrote:
I love how everyone has a consumer mind set here... they go straight to defend gw rather than thinking of way to improve it. Even if gw was a next to perfect company you should alway be critical and thinks of they they can improve to help and benefit you as the consumer.

What does this even mean? How do you propose for GW to improve this situation apart from releasing completely different lines for every imaginable IG regiment or simply acting like conversions don't exist and only encouraging everyone to use stock models?

GW makes the vehicle upgrade spruce and various marine upgrades.

Why don't they make a couple of diff upgrades for guard?

I'd be all for GW making upgrade sprues of all types. I get the feeling that people would still call it an evil act of Capitalism because they'd have to buy regular IG kits and then a seperate upgrade sprue if they wanted to make something other than standard guard units.

 Gunzhard wrote:
Funny that people complained for so long that GW stopped including 'conversions' in White Dwarf... this community is so ridiculous.

I never understand this point when I see it. Some people complain about one thing, then other people complain about a different thing. It isn't like any community is one homogeneous mind that has a single opinion. The negative opinions are also more prevalent than the positive, as fewer people are motivated to post "everything is fine at the moment" posts.

kitbashing, by definition, uses existing kits to make something new that was not intended. Upgrade sprues specifically designed for that would no longer be kitbashing or even conversions really.

Plus it's not like these kinds of conversions don't exist. Eldar Exodites are basically extremely expensive alternative to craftworld eldar models, but no one raises a fuss about that.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Plus it's not like these kinds of conversions don't exist. Eldar Exodites are basically extremely expensive alternative to craftworld eldar models, but no one raises a fuss about that.

It's because most people never considered making a kitbash army, it was just something cool you would see occasionally. However, by putting these in the codex the have teased what a cool army you could have. Combine that with the age of the current IG line and people are a bit annoyed that the great looking army they want is pretty insane to actually build.

 Trickstick wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
I dont see why they WOULDN'T sell bits individually

The moulds cast sprues as complete things, which they then box up and sell. They do not have the option of only producing loads of, for example, Catachan heads without producing new moulds. That means that if they sold individual bits then a lot of other bits would go to waste, as some parts of kits are going to be a lot more popular. Imagine how many wasted bits there would be left over after they has taken the plasma guns out of a kit and sold them off individually.

Add to that the massive logistical nightmare that separating all of the bits, packaging them and such would be and I can believe that it is just not economically viable to do. I don't know how many people remember but GW did used to sell bits individually. Every part had a code and you used to be able to get catalogues and order whatever combination of parts you likes. They stopped that, probably due to how uneconomical it was.

I could imagine that it wouldnt be hard to pay a couple of min wage high school kids to clip sprues all day then throw them into a corresponding bin. then when someone makes an order they go to bin #xy, extract the number needed then bag it up and put it in a padded envelope with some obscene shipping charge. Maybe even put a picture on the bin to make sure its the right one.

I guess it's just me but this is not that different from the old conversion sections from old codexes.

I remember how the 3rd edition Nids codex showed a GS converted gaunt with 6 eyes (3 on each side) as an example of converting enhanced senses. For the Entire Unit. That would require an insane amount of effort to reproduce on each gaunt, but that was sort of the asking price of the hobby.

 generalchaos34 wrote:
I could imagine that it wouldnt be hard to pay a couple of min wage high school kids to clip sprues all day then throw them into a corresponding bin. then when someone makes an order they go to bin #xy, extract the number needed then bag it up and put it in a padded envelope with some obscene shipping charge. Maybe even put a picture on the bin to make sure its the right one.

Honestly, that is not how logistics work. The costs of doing anything is much more than that, especially for a company the size of GW. Then you have the issue of quality control. If you just have people clipping components, then you are going to get an not insignificant number of returns. Add to that all of the extra back end stuff you would need and it is complicated. That doesn't even address the massive waste you would have from certain components being more popular than others on the same sprue.

generalchaos34 wrote:

I could imagine that it wouldnt be hard to pay a couple of min wage high school kids to clip sprues all day then throw them into a corresponding bin. then when someone makes an order they go to bin #xy, extract the number needed then bag it up and put it in a padded envelope with some obscene shipping charge. Maybe even put a picture on the bin to make sure its the right one.

They used to do exactly that. For years you could order any bit you wanted from any kit directly from GW by mail order, and then later directly through their web store. It was glorious. Definitely a shame they don't do it any more, but the good news is there are a bunch of people out there who make a living doing exactly the same thing.

Trickstick wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Plus it's not like these kinds of conversions don't exist. Eldar Exodites are basically extremely expensive alternative to craftworld eldar models, but no one raises a fuss about that.

It's because most people never considered making a kitbash army, it was just something cool you would see occasionally. However, by putting these in the codex the have teased what a cool army you could have. Combine that with the age of the current IG line and people are a bit annoyed that the great looking army they want is pretty insane to actually build.

Holy gak, guys. So GW just should have kept a lid on the fact that you can combine bits from different kits, and NOT shown cool conversions in the codex? Then everything would have been better because no one would have known it was possible to put x head on y body, and thusly felt entitled to do so with no additional expense or effort required?

 Luciferian wrote:
Holy gak, guys. So GW just should have kept a lid on the fact that you can combine bits from different kits, and NOT shown cool conversions in the codex? Then everything would have been better because no one would have known it was possible to put x head on y body, and thusly felt entitled to do so with no additional expense or effort required?

I was not saying that they shouldn't have done it. I was simply theorising what has lead to some people feeling let down by the current plastic kit options and that the awesome looking force they saw is beyond their grasp.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
Holy gak, guys. So GW just should have kept a lid on the fact that you can combine bits from different kits, and NOT shown cool conversions in the codex? Then everything would have been better because no one would have known it was possible to put x head on y body, and thusly felt entitled to do so with no additional expense or effort required?

I was not saying that they shouldn't have done it. I was simply theorising what has lead to some people feeling let down by the current plastic kit options and that the awesome looking force they saw is beyond their grasp.

That is sort of the pain of Guard conversions no matter what. As one of their three premier horde armies (the other being nids and orks) it's really hard to actually get a cost-effective conversion for your line troops when your basic troops are already the cheapest in the range. In 4th edition main rulebook there was actually a conversion example of some chaos mutants using guard rules that had, among other things, Space Marine parts in them. Come to think of it the only time when they did make a cost-effective guard conversion, it was the Mutant horde from Eye of Terror from way back in 3rd edition, and even then it was only marginally cheaper than the basic guard because you ended up having to use Ork Heads for torsos.

If you can't do cheap, at least make it look good, which is what GW did here. Plus it's not like all of the conversions are ridiculously expensive; the Ork Hunters (if I remember) are basically catachans mixed with Chaos Marauder axes. That's a pretty easy and cheap conversion (since the marauders add a bit of variation on the catachan vest combo and have plenty of extra hands).

 Trickstick wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
Funny that people complained for so long that GW stopped including 'conversions' in White Dwarf... this community is so ridiculous.

I never understand this point when I see it. Some people complain about one thing, then other people complain about a different thing. It isn't like any community is one homogeneous mind that has a single opinion. The negative opinions are also more prevalent than the positive, as fewer people are motivated to post "everything is fine at the moment" posts.

Well c'mon now, GW got a lot of flack for ignoring conversions over the last few years, this was very likely a reaction to that - and here it is immediately met by complaints. Of course different people can want different things, that's really a daft statement; the real point is, this community IS ridiculous. As exhibit A) I present Dakka '40k General Discussion' subforum; or really any other 40K forum/blog over the life of the game/forums.

For the record I'm not one of those, GW is perfect, the Community is the problem people; I am a GW is imperfect, the Community is the problem person, because that's reality.

 Gunzhard wrote:
Well c'mon now, GW got a lot of flack for ignoring conversions over the last few years, this was very likely a reaction to that - and here it is immediately met by complaints. Of course different people can want different things, that's really a daft statement; the real point is, this community IS ridiculous. As exhibit A) I present Dakka '40k General Discussion' subforum; or really any other 40K forum/blog over the life of the game/forums.

For the record I'm not one of those, GW is perfect, the Community is the problem people; I am a GW is imperfect, the Community is the problem person, because that's reality.

I'm sorry, I still just don't understand. How are people voicing their displeasure at something "ridiculous"? With any change, some people are going to think it was bad. They are usually the ones to start a conversation about it, as most people are more motivated to post when annoyed about something. This can lead to the assumption that the forum as a whole is against something, which is really just not the case. Yes, you get a lot of rather silly individual posts and arguments but trying to extrapolate that over an entire message board seems silly. You get the same thing externally, with people generalising boards with sweeping statements. It just seems weird to me.

It's kinda "ridiculous" because one of the biggest complains for almost a decade now is that GW started removing hobby material, specifically conversions, from their publications around the middle of 5th edition. Since Conversions is an intrinsic part of the hobby and that was roughly when GW went down the toilet, most people deemed that to be the point where GW forgot about it's hobby roots and became a real, souless corporation. People have been asking for it to come back for a long time and now that it has, we have people complaining it's a bad thing.

From GW's perspective of things, it basically means our community is a bunch of nitwits since they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. And if that's what they think they're liable to jump right back into their old ways of completely not listening to the community (which is even worse).

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's kinda "ridiculous" because one of the biggest complains for almost a decade now is that GW started removing hobby material, specifically conversions, from their publications around the middle of 5th edition. Since Conversions is an intrinsic part of the hobby and that was roughly when GW went down the toilet, most people deemed that to be the point where GW forgot about it's hobby roots and became a real, souless corporation. People have been asking for it to come back for a long time and now that it has, we have people complaining it's a bad thing.

From GW's perspective of things, it basically means our community is a bunch of nitwits since they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. And if that's what they think they're liable to jump right back into their old ways of completely not listening to the community (which is even worse).

Totally agree. I realize it might "seem weird" ...but there is literally, actual context here. GW has, on more than one occasion, reached the limit of warp-gazing-insanity that is this community and just tuned out the static noise.

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
I dont see why they WOULDN'T sell bits individually

The moulds cast sprues as complete things, which they then box up and sell. They do not have the option of only producing loads of, for example, Catachan heads without producing new moulds. That means that if they sold individual bits then a lot of other bits would go to waste, as some parts of kits are going to be a lot more popular. Imagine how many wasted bits there would be left over after they has taken the plasma guns out of a kit and sold them off individually.

Add to that the massive logistical nightmare that separating all of the bits, packaging them and such would be and I can believe that it is just not economically viable to do. I don't know how many people remember but GW did used to sell bits individually. Every part had a code and you used to be able to get catalogues and order whatever combination of parts you likes. They stopped that, probably due to how uneconomical it was.

I could imagine that it wouldnt be hard to pay a couple of min wage high school kids to clip sprues all day then throw them into a corresponding bin. then when someone makes an order they go to bin #xy, extract the number needed then bag it up and put it in a padded envelope with some obscene shipping charge. Maybe even put a picture on the bin to make sure its the right one.

You are forgetting the fact that some bits are far more popular than others. Its specifically why most bits sites will have 0 of one bit you are looking for while having 4 or 5 of a less popular bit from the same kit. If each individual part from the kit does not sell at an equal rate, they will either be A) constantly out of stock of the part until they reach an "acceptable" level for all bits, or B) vastly overstocked on several bits that will either go to waste or waste up space.

Just with Guard for an example, what do you think will sell faster - the plasmagun that comes with the Tempestus Scions kit, or the grenade launcher? And what of parts that are used in multiple weapons? For example, I believe Scions' melta guns and hot shot volley guns both use an off arm from a regular hellgun. Are those sold separately or do they sell them in a pair or trio? And what of regions - do they just have a bitz bin located in the UK that ships worldwide, or do they burn the space to have a bitz bin of every kit they sell in each region?

Is it an insurmountable issue? Probably not, but it is inconvenient enough that I can see why GW doesn't do it.

Basically, that's why the old bitz order was made in metal; the bits were cast to order and very rarely stockpiled. It's one of the few perks that Metal models had over finecast or plastic (although not over resin in general, since theoretically you could cast those to order as well given that other places don't put them all on one sprue).

EDIT: I'm talking about GW casting these bitz, not home casting.

Best not pursue the recasting convos lest the mods get annoyed.

I went the fantasy/40K kitbash route. All my Guardsmen have Outrider heads (damn you GeeDubs for nicking my idea haha). I used the horses for Rough Riders and the torsos and weapons to convert Regiment-themed Scions. I bought three Outrider/Pistoliers boxes in all for about £15 a box. They have provided heads for around 50 models, torsos for 15 Scions and assorted officers, and horses for 10 Rough Riders. I eBayed the last 5 horses I didn't use. Results in my sig.

If you're smart about how you plan your conversions it can end up not costing dramatically more, provided you use as many parts as possible. The GW Codex examples are pretty crazy in some cases... Land Speeder bit backpack? Fine for one guy maybe but a battalion? Nope.

You can also swap with someone. If a friend wants Genestealers Hybrid heads to convert Cadians and you want bodies to make a custom regiment, buy together.

Missed opportunity for them to release regiment kits.

I would have been happy with regiment upgrade sprues even. A pack of 10-20 heads with torso's to compliment the desired regiment, with the cadian box as the base for everything else.

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Missed opportunity for them to release regiment kits.

I would have been happy with regiment upgrade sprues even. A pack of 10-20 heads with torso's to compliment the desired regiment, with the cadian box as the base for everything else.

^This. I don't understand GW's reasoning on this issue. They knew darn well the community wanted new IG plastics. We have been asking for it for years. Everyone was talking about it leading up to the codex release and we got nothing. After waiting nearly 2 decades, I finally gave up & spent $300.00 on third party bits. I would have gladly paid twice that for updated regiment plastic kits from GW.

 Commissar Benny wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Missed opportunity for them to release regiment kits.

I would have been happy with regiment upgrade sprues even. A pack of 10-20 heads with torso's to compliment the desired regiment, with the cadian box as the base for everything else.

^This. I don't understand GW's reasoning on this issue. They knew darn well the community wanted new IG plastics. We have been asking for it for years. Everyone was talking about it leading up to the codex release and we got nothing. After waiting nearly 2 decades, I finally gave up & spent $300.00 on third party bits. I would have gladly paid twice that for updated regiment plastic kits from GW.

I honestly think this is why we don't get new regiment kits.

Think about the sheer amount of competition GW would be facing trying to muscle its way back into the Imperial Guard model market when there's so much competition out there. They're beaten on price by historicals conversions, they're beaten on quality and options by high profile offerings like Vic, and there are hundreds of options everywhere in between, even in plastic. Gw's only advantage at that point is that they are name brand, which only really seems to be an issue in England, as in America most people play at 3rd party stores that don't care.

So when GW looks at making new kits, they can make an IG set of 3 or so boxes that has a stiff amount of competition and already has most of it's potential buyers bought out, or it can just release a new space marine box and watch it sell out overnight.

I hate to be the cynical guy but I know which I would pick if I was trying to make money.

Other thing is shelf space, and we already know that stores, especially GW's, struggle to find shelf space for everything as is. The guard range is pretty big already, and having spaces get taken up by what are essentially duplicates of the same kit (and directly competing with one another) means we'll probably never see regiment kits in plastic. They'll continue to be a metal option online and through Forgeworld, but that's about it. I'd love to be proven wrong but when you think about it from a business point of view it makes sense.