I just downloaded it and and I like it... anyone else use it and do you guys suggest it? Any problems? What version should I download for Space Marines?

I think it sucks, honestly. The UI is horrible for it, you have to know exactly what type of detachments you're building before you start, and adding detachments is not intuitive.

Having that been said, it's the only game in town though until the guys who work on the AB datafiles get their gak together.

I was actually going to help them with it, but I don't facebook, and that's apparently their only form of communication.

I have no clue what he's on about. Battlescribe is pretty darn awesome.

I've used Battlescribe since it came out and it's great imo. My only complaint is the inconsistencies between what and how information is displayed with various factions as you have different people creating the files.

I’m running Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition V26...

Is that the most up to date? And I like it I just put a list together in about 15 minutes and found some more points to play with. I just hope it’s up to date so I don’t screw over my opponents.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I have no clue what he's on about. Battlescribe is pretty darn awesome.

This.

It has some bugs/minor updates needed but in general is darn solid.
I havent built a paper n pen list in who knows how long.

It's perfectly fine. It's a steep learning curve to work out some of the weird things (Like adding sub-detachments in order to mix models from different books) and thanks to their rapid updates errors are fixed as soon as they get reported to them.

You want the dataset called "Warhammer 40,000 v1.x.xx" (currently 1.0.80 at the time of writing.)

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I have no clue what he's on about. Battlescribe is pretty darn awesome.

Well, I go to new roster, and then I get a modal window that asks me for system, name, points, and the forces. Fine.

I click add and then I get ANOTHER modal window that wants me to select my army and detachment type.... err, catalogue and force org. Okay.

So lets add a AM and a SM detachment. I guess I'll go patrol for each for now. Oh, and I'll do an AM supreme command detachment too. Love that shadowsword amirite?

Hey, where's my lord of war section? I can't see where to, oh hey, it's WAAAAAY down at the bottom, under the space marines because you have to pick your forces out of the tree view by detachment, then by army, and not by army, then by detachment. That's weird.

Oh, I can't drag and drop from one detachment to the other? That makes shuffling things around by multiple detachments weird. As in, I can't at all.

Uh oh, turns out I wanted a... whoops, there's a pop up info window that shows up if I hover over anything for too long, and i have to click away from it to get back to where I was.

Now, what was I doing? Oh yeah, I wanted four troops rather than three. Battalion it is. Okay, well, maybe I'll just right click my detachment and... no, that didn't work. Well, can I... uh....

Oh hey, there's this edit forces button down here in the opposite corner from literally every other control on the program. Let's see what that does. Okay, my detachments are in here. I'll just click the one I want to turn into... oh, there's only an add or remove button. Well, I have my battalion now. Wait, why is my battalion a subsection under my patrol?! What does that even imply in game terms? Okay, so remove the battalion, remove the patrol, click back on new roster and add the battalion.

That's what I mean when the UI sucks.


Also, it sometimes has the misfortune of just going berserk and doing this:



I honestly don't know what I did to cause that. I literally went through all the steps I said above. Not the first time I've seen it though. I blame Java.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I was on old data. No worries:

Manage Data. Clicked update data. Nothing happens. Click the drop down next to my data files, refresh data? Nope. Nothing happens. Click add data, scroll down through the repositories. Oh, hey, there's a newer version there. Click it to add and it replaces the old one. Yaaaay!

How do you contact the right people to report an error in their files?

Never had any real issues with Battlescribe. Its more than solid.

I can make a list in 5 mins, save it, change it up, save another version, etc. etc. I dont seem to have an issue with the UI. A couple of trial and errors maybe, but adding a detachment is pretty strait forward.

If I had to make a complaint it would be the variance between information on different factions. For instance the Tyranids include key words for their roster, but sadly Death Guard dont. Its not a huge issue, but like I said....if I HAD to find a complaint.

To sum it up, Battlescribe is awesome, and I dont see any reason to use a pen and paper.

Only used the app. Very hit or miss as to if there'll be any real information or options. Not intuitive at all what with there being redundant tiers of options high up, and generally not that satisfying. I'll give it another chance though. May need to update data and just try looking at it in a different way. Took me a few tries to work out the chapter tactics selection.

I just downloaded it onto my iPad and can't figure out how to start a second list. Not a 2nd detachment but a whole list. So that I can have 2 different GK lists in one place.

Please don't judge me for wanting to use GK.

I don't use it because I just don't find it as good as a spreadsheet. And having to pay to name my own characters is dumb.

I use battlescibe to make quick lists for experimenting, but will always go with a spreadsheet and books for a final tournament list because I don't trust programs to not have points errors and I prefer the print out of my spreadsheets.

It's the best thing available. I also found this cool online list builder called HQbuilder but they are REALLY slow to update - plus it requires a internet connection. It's the next best thing though.

I also find that people who use Battlescribe don't read their rules; part of using the book is you get to glance at everything a unit can do while you buy it for your list.

 daedalus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I have no clue what he's on about. Battlescribe is pretty darn awesome.

(...) That's what I mean when the UI sucks.

I've been using BS for 2 years now, and you're right with each and every point. You get used to it, but it's still a bad way of doing it. I frequently have to delete a detachment just because I decided to add another Elite unit.

Also, it sometimes has the misfortune of just going berserk and doing this:

I honestly don't know what I did to cause that. I literally went through all the steps I said above. Not the first time I've seen it though. I blame Java.

Happens to me too sometimes, I think it's usually tied to doing something that's not supposed to happen - like Duplicate something that shouldn't be duplicated. There's no proper exception handling (just suppresses it and moves on) so the application goes haywire - at least that's what I think is happening.

the old data thing hasn't happened to me yet, although I always make sure to check "Delete existing Data". I had a bit of an issue with the mobile app and data when the switch from 7th to 8th came around, but I think that was simply an issue with different data sources and catalogues. Since I cleared all the data and added the proper repository again it's been a smooth ride.

--

The thing with BattleScribe is simply that it's the only decent option. It should never replace your Codex, and if something seems odd you should always just check the Codex/Index/BRB. The BS catalogues are maintained by other players in their free time. They get stuff wrong just like you and I, and sometimes it's literally just a typo noone noticed yet.

BS is great, but you should never fully trust it.

And to show how hard it is to interpret GWs rules properly and to build a proper army list building app - just take a look at GWs PoS, err, AoS list builder "Azyr". I bought two boxes of the Spire of Dawn box when I started AoS, and then I downloaded Azyr simply to manage my army. Guess what - Azyr still is unable to let me build the batallion from that box. It switches allegiance of half of the elven forces to that of the other part of the box, so you could field them as one allegiance. Guess what app doesn't support this at all? I haven't checked since 40k 8th came out (haven't played AoS since then), but I'd bet they still haven't fixed that.

nekooni wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I have no clue what he's on about. Battlescribe is pretty darn awesome.

(...) That's what I mean when the UI sucks.

I've been using BS for 2 years now, and you're right with each and every point. You get used to it, but it's still a bad way of doing it. I frequently have to delete a detachment just because I decided to add another Elite unit.

Yeah, I know it's gonna be all fine when I'm over the learning curve. It's just frustrating. Army Builder had more than it's fair share of jankyness too, but you could at least make basic assumptions about it, like a useful context menu and basic drag and drop capabilities.

It'd be nice if someone could write one in node.js or something and then distribute it as a do it yourself kind of deal along with the actual code.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I just downloaded it onto my iPad and can't figure out how to start a second list. Not a 2nd detachment but a whole list. So that I can have 2 different GK lists in one place.

Please don't judge me for wanting to use GK.

Press New Roster?

There is no button for that. I hit the "+" button but it just opens a new beginning point but won't open the roster.

Maybe it's just me.

I used battlescribe once. Didn't like the UI and didn't trust the points calculations. Also, special rules gave it problems because they weren't coded in (like the old SW list where Termies were considered elite unless you took Arjac, then they were considered troops)

It was just too clumsy for me.

I prefer writing down stats, wargear and total unit cost on a 3x5 index card. When I want to make a list, I just go through my index cards and pull the ones I want adding the unit totals as I go. Plus, with an eraser, it's easy enough to change in there's a FAQ or something.

kaotkbliss wrote:
I used battlescribe once. Didn't like the UI and didn't trust the points calculations. Also, special rules gave it problems because they weren't coded in (like the old SW list where Termies were considered elite unless you took Arjac, then they were considered troops)

It was just too clumsy for me.

You know things can improve, right? Try it now, it's far easier to use than having to add up the points and swap pages back and forth, and no less error prone than human error.

So far I like it. My only complaints is that you can't retroactively change your force organization type. Oh, and last I checked it didn't have a "No type, just let me cram some units together real quick" mode. That would be kind of nice I guess.

M.

 Infantryman wrote:
So far I like it. My only complaints is that you can't retroactively change your force organization type. Oh, and last I checked it didn't have a "No type, just let me cram some units together real quick" mode. That would be kind of nice I guess.

M.

While the first one is true, the 2nd isn't. You pick an "unbound" detachment. If enough people moan at the Battlescribe app team to add drag and drop (so you can more easily rejig detachments) they will add it.

Its ok.

right up until you forget to charge the batteries on your device :X

thats happened to me at least once.

but i prefer book paper pen.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

kaotkbliss wrote:
I used battlescribe once. Didn't like the UI and didn't trust the points calculations. Also, special rules gave it problems because they weren't coded in (like the old SW list where Termies were considered elite unless you took Arjac, then they were considered troops)

It was just too clumsy for me.

You know things can improve, right? Try it now, it's far easier to use than having to add up the points and swap pages back and forth, and no less error prone than human error.

I disagree with this. It is prone to human error because it shifts the responsibility of that error to someone else. Unless you are flipping back and forth and checking things in battlescribe you are trusting that someone else has not made errors. IME with battlescribe this is not a safe assumption, I would much rather do things myself, and it is really no easier to use than a spreadsheet. I only use it because I don't always have my books with me when I want to make a list

 Infantryman wrote:
So far I like it. My only complaints is that you can't retroactively change your force organization type. Oh, and last I checked it didn't have a "No type, just let me cram some units together real quick" mode. That would be kind of nice I guess.

M.

While that mode doesn't exist - you can just open up a auxillary detachment which has all the options and just make your list there. This is pretty much what I do all the time now.

Just know the basic rules for detachments and you are fine without specifying detachments.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

kaotkbliss wrote:
I used battlescribe once. Didn't like the UI and didn't trust the points calculations. Also, special rules gave it problems because they weren't coded in (like the old SW list where Termies were considered elite unless you took Arjac, then they were considered troops)

It was just too clumsy for me.

You know things can improve, right? Try it now, it's far easier to use than having to add up the points and swap pages back and forth, and no less error prone than human error.

Not easier for me. See, on my index cards, the troops+wargear+characters for that unit are already added up. So making a new list on the fly is as simple as flipping through the cards pulling units I want to take. Where-as in BS, I either need to start from scratch, reading all the wargear (trying to remember what it was my models had equipped) or going back through trying to add/remove units from an already made list trusting that whoever made the army list had the most recent rules and didn't mistype anything.

To each their own

Breng77 wrote:
I disagree with this. It is prone to human error because it shifts the responsibility of that error to someone else. Unless you are flipping back and forth and checking things in battlescribe you are trusting that someone else has not made errors. IME with battlescribe this is not a safe assumption, I would much rather do things myself, and it is really no easier to use than a spreadsheet. I only use it because I don't always have my books with me when I want to make a list

It's not easier to use than an excel spreadsheet, but it certainly is easier to get ready for use than an excel spreadsheet if you want that excel spreadsheet to be as smart as battlescribe - e.g. have a dropdown menu, pick a unit, have more dropdown menus appear on that line, then choose all of those options and have the entire thing a) check if your choices are legal and b) calculate all the points.

If you use your Excel just to write down the points manually, that's not really "using a spreadsheet" - that's just doing it manually (which is fine, but takes work and is prone to errors).

I don;t use it - but friends do - just be careful and donlt assume everything is correct - especially if its only recently been released.

kaotkbliss wrote:
Not easier for me. See, on my index cards, the troops+wargear+characters for that unit are already added up. So making a new list on the fly is as simple as flipping through the cards pulling units I want to take. Where-as in BS, I either need to start from scratch, reading all the wargear (trying to remember what it was my models had equipped) or going back through trying to add/remove units from an already made list trusting that whoever made the army list had the most recent rules and didn't mistype anything.

To each their own

OK - what are you even talking about?

Battlescribe has catalogues that basically just digitize the Codex/Index of your army. YOU then create your army list off of that. It's not a framework that has you manually enter each unit. You pick from a catalogue of units, where there are rules and point costs and the like. You can't have a 5 man Tactical Squad with both a Lascannon and a Multimelta because the catalogue knows that that's wrong. Now the definition in the catalog is wrong sometimes, mostly when a new codex comes out and the catalogue for that codex is pretty much still a work in progress and frequently updated. If you spot something being actually wrong you can report that to the catalog maintainers and they'll fix it.

Army Builder > Battlescribe. So, I hope the AB guys are hard at work on converting to 8th. I mainly use battlescribe to total my points for me then I transcribe my list into my custom excel sheet for colorful 1 page printing. The BS printed output is so awful. So, so, so awful.

nekooni wrote:

kaotkbliss wrote:
Not easier for me. See, on my index cards, the troops+wargear+characters for that unit are already added up. So making a new list on the fly is as simple as flipping through the cards pulling units I want to take. Where-as in BS, I either need to start from scratch, reading all the wargear (trying to remember what it was my models had equipped) or going back through trying to add/remove units from an already made list trusting that whoever made the army list had the most recent rules and didn't mistype anything.

To each their own

OK - what are you even talking about?

Battlescribe has catalogues that basically just digitize the Codex/Index of your army. YOU then create your army list off of that. It's not a framework that has you manually enter each unit. You pick from a catalogue of units, where there are rules and point costs and the like. You can't have a 5 man Tactical Squad with both a Lascannon and a Multimelta because the catalogue knows that that's wrong. Now the definition in the catalog is wrong sometimes, mostly when a new codex comes out and the catalogue for that codex is pretty much still a work in progress and frequently updated. If you spot something being actually wrong you can report that to the catalog maintainers and they'll fix it.

Right but you still have to tell it "I want a 10 man TAC, 1 is carrying a plasma pistol, the leader is upgraded and has a PF and storm bolter" or whatever
But I also have to remember, of my models, did my unit with the PF have a plasma pistol in that unit, or was that the Melta?

With the index card, I just pull it out, see that it's 165 points for that unit and all wargear is properly added up and accounted for. As I said, for me it's easier this way. Doesn't mean it is for everyone.

Because of Battlescribe I will never pay for any books published by GW ever again.

I like Battlescribe and stumbled onto it because ArmyBuilder is so slow in getting 40k files updated. The user interface takes some getting used to, not being able to change your detachment type is annoying as hell, and the print output is absolutely terrible. Having a unit split over a couple pages makes it almost useless. If they could fix those couple of things, it would be a perfect tool.

Battlescribe is pretty great. It's much easier to use on a phone than excel.

It has some minor errors, occasionally, but they are usually fixed quickly. That being said you need to know enough about the codex so that you know when battlescribe has errors and rules omissions.

Unfortunately, about 50% of the people I play use battlescribe instead of buying codexes, which irks me slightly.

I swear, not one of the ~5 space marine players in my group actually have the marine codex. Just index + battlescribe. I've had to explain to at least 3 of them that chapter tactics don't apply to vehicles, which none of them knew because........they don't have the codex.

And my pet gaming peeve is people trying to look up rules on a phone instead of a codex.

Anyways. Battlescribe is excellent.

nekooni wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
I disagree with this. It is prone to human error because it shifts the responsibility of that error to someone else. Unless you are flipping back and forth and checking things in battlescribe you are trusting that someone else has not made errors. IME with battlescribe this is not a safe assumption, I would much rather do things myself, and it is really no easier to use than a spreadsheet. I only use it because I don't always have my books with me when I want to make a list

It's not easier to use than an excel spreadsheet, but it certainly is easier to get ready for use than an excel spreadsheet if you want that excel spreadsheet to be as smart as battlescribe - e.g. have a dropdown menu, pick a unit, have more dropdown menus appear on that line, then choose all of those options and have the entire thing a) check if your choices are legal and b) calculate all the points.

If you use your Excel just to write down the points manually, that's not really "using a spreadsheet" - that's just doing it manually (which is fine, but takes work and is prone to errors).

Not true at all, you can use excel to add up the points, add drop models and upgrades etc easily without programing it to have drop downs. Now sure if you want to build a spreadsheet with a ton of functionality that is fine. But I'm talking about using the book, and having the spreadsheet do the math, no more work than using battlescribe honestly and no more prone to errors (and any made are user made not from the sheet itself) I don't need the spreadsheet to be as smart as battlescribe to be easier to use for building lists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tokhuah wrote:
Because of Battlescribe I will never pay for any books published by GW ever again.

This is a bad idea because there are plenty of rules not in BS, in addition points are wrong pretty frequently.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tokhuah wrote:
Because of Battlescribe I will never pay for any books published by GW ever again.

This is a bad idea because there are plenty of rules not in BS, in addition points are wrong pretty frequently.

Since I do not play in tournaments this is not a big deal. What I think is a bad idea is to pay into this money grab extravaganza:

Rule Book $60 (worse rule book value of any game I have ever played)
Index $25
Codex $40
Chapter Approved $?
Next Chapter Approved $?
Yet Another Chapter...

This is especially true if you are playing Orks or Necrons who will not even get Codex until this edition is 1/3 over.

Breng77 wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
I disagree with this. It is prone to human error because it shifts the responsibility of that error to someone else. Unless you are flipping back and forth and checking things in battlescribe you are trusting that someone else has not made errors. IME with battlescribe this is not a safe assumption, I would much rather do things myself, and it is really no easier to use than a spreadsheet. I only use it because I don't always have my books with me when I want to make a list

It's not easier to use than an excel spreadsheet, but it certainly is easier to get ready for use than an excel spreadsheet if you want that excel spreadsheet to be as smart as battlescribe - e.g. have a dropdown menu, pick a unit, have more dropdown menus appear on that line, then choose all of those options and have the entire thing a) check if your choices are legal and b) calculate all the points.

If you use your Excel just to write down the points manually, that's not really "using a spreadsheet" - that's just doing it manually (which is fine, but takes work and is prone to errors).

Not true at all, you can use excel to add up the points, add drop models and upgrades etc easily without programing it to have drop downs. Now sure if you want to build a spreadsheet with a ton of functionality that is fine. But I'm talking about using the book, and having the spreadsheet do the math, no more work than using battlescribe honestly and no more prone to errors (and any made are user made not from the sheet itself) I don't need the spreadsheet to be as smart as battlescribe to be easier to use for building lists.

Exactly what I said though - you can just use it as a slightly smarter piece of paper that adds up points for you. it's literally just a more comfortable calculator then, you still have to tell it which cells to add up. that's fine, but you can't really compare it to what BS does.

nekooni wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
I disagree with this. It is prone to human error because it shifts the responsibility of that error to someone else. Unless you are flipping back and forth and checking things in battlescribe you are trusting that someone else has not made errors. IME with battlescribe this is not a safe assumption, I would much rather do things myself, and it is really no easier to use than a spreadsheet. I only use it because I don't always have my books with me when I want to make a list

It's not easier to use than an excel spreadsheet, but it certainly is easier to get ready for use than an excel spreadsheet if you want that excel spreadsheet to be as smart as battlescribe - e.g. have a dropdown menu, pick a unit, have more dropdown menus appear on that line, then choose all of those options and have the entire thing a) check if your choices are legal and b) calculate all the points.

If you use your Excel just to write down the points manually, that's not really "using a spreadsheet" - that's just doing it manually (which is fine, but takes work and is prone to errors).

Not true at all, you can use excel to add up the points, add drop models and upgrades etc easily without programing it to have drop downs. Now sure if you want to build a spreadsheet with a ton of functionality that is fine. But I'm talking about using the book, and having the spreadsheet do the math, no more work than using battlescribe honestly and no more prone to errors (and any made are user made not from the sheet itself) I don't need the spreadsheet to be as smart as battlescribe to be easier to use for building lists.

Exactly what I said though - you can just use it as a slightly smarter piece of paper that adds up points for you. it's literally just a more comfortable calculator then, you still have to tell it which cells to add up. that's fine, but you can't really compare it to what BS does.

Sure I can both are being used to create armies, both of them if I want accuracy require me to have a book on hand. It is a fair comparison when discussing how I prefer to build army lists. I would rather do all the entry myself because then I know if I've made an error, I can easily switch up detachments, and units. I would never use battlescribe on a PC, I use it on my phone to build lists when I don't have books on hand, but otherwise use a spreadsheet for accuracy and easy to view output.

Battlescribe is decent for making lists on the fly, but I have spreadsheets set up to easily add things up much quicker than a calculator. So sure I need to type unit names and points costs, and number of models and upgrades. Not a big deal, the big difference with battle scribe is it has the unit names and points built in, but the assumption that they are correct is not one I make because I have frequently been burned. Essentially I am not looking for it to be as smart as battlescribe, though if I did I could make a spreadsheet that was, it just isn't worth the time investment for me to do so because building lists isn't hard.

I like the idea of writing out everything a squad has on index cards and then having that as your "prefab" version of the unit. It's really kind of like Malifaux or Warmachine where you just have one version of Unit X and everyone's Unit X is otherwise identical.

I used to really prefer the customization that 40k has, but recently it's kind of occurred to me that there's not really any of that I do. I just pick the one configuration of the unit I want, which is usually the only one that makes sense, and then I repeat until I have enough of that unit.

I mean, realistically, I'm never going to have a scion squad with anything but those two plasmaguns and a plasma pistol in it. Or an infantry squad with something other than a plasma pistol, power sword, and plasmagun. So why do I need something where I need to tick off those two check boxes every time? Just spend 30 minutes writing out the index cards, shove them in a binder or an army bag pocket, and then add them up as needed.

I'd be far more inclined to do things by hand if I didn't have to flip back and forth to get points values for things.

Also, I like that BattleScribe whines at me when I'm doing it wrong.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
While the first one is true, the 2nd isn't. You pick an "unbound" detachment.

AH! I must have overlooked that. Thanks!

M.

 Infantryman wrote:
I'd be far more inclined to do things by hand if I didn't have to flip back and forth to get points values for things.

Also, I like that BattleScribe whines at me when I'm doing it wrong.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
While the first one is true, the 2nd isn't. You pick an "unbound" detachment.

AH! I must have overlooked that. Thanks!

M.

That is why I have copied out the points list, so I don't have to flip back and forth.

So making a list using excel or a pen and paper is so much better? I dont see it.

I have seen more mistakes with someone adding up their points manually than in Battlescribe. Making a list in BS and then checking it against a codex is also an option, you know?

Also at least BS updates regularly unlike books.....Index points/rules, now FAQ points/rules....now codex points/rules.....more FAQ points/rules.....oh chapter approved coming now too.

The dude that puts his lists on index cards better have a good eraser.

Face it....books get outdated. After a (short) while they are not 100% accurate. Especially at the speed GW has been shooting these out.

I just feel people that are complaining about digital lists and devices running out of battery are kind of stuck in the past. Dont want to trying something new.....because "I always wrote my list". At the same time they have 4 books, index cards, post it notes, and color coded page arrows, yet shy away from a digital list because "Its sooooooooo confusing" LOL.

 Tokhuah wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tokhuah wrote:
Because of Battlescribe I will never pay for any books published by GW ever again.

This is a bad idea because there are plenty of rules not in BS, in addition points are wrong pretty frequently.

Since I do not play in tournaments this is not a big deal. What I think is a bad idea is to pay into this money grab extravaganza:

Rule Book $60 (worse rule book value of any game I have ever played)
Index $25
Codex $40
Chapter Approved $?
Next Chapter Approved $?
Yet Another Chapter...

This is especially true if you are playing Orks or Necrons who will not even get Codex until this edition is 1/3 over.

Given your opinion on the matter' isn't foolish to pursue this hobby at all?

Vaxx wrote:
So making a list using excel or a pen and paper is so much better? I dont see it.

I have seen more mistakes with someone adding up their points manually than in Battlescribe. Making a list in BS and then checking it against a codex is also an option, you know?

Also at least BS updates regularly unlike books.....Index points/rules, now FAQ points/rules....now codex points/rules.....more FAQ points/rules.....oh chapter approved coming now too.

The dude that puts his lists on index cards better have a good eraser.

Face it....books get outdated. After a (short) while they are not 100% accurate. Especially at the speed GW has been shooting these out.

I just feel people that are complaining about digital lists and devices running out of battery are kind of stuck in the past. Dont want to trying something new.....because "I always wrote my list". At the same time they have 4 books, index cards, post it notes, and color coded page arrows, yet shy away from a digital list because "Its sooooooooo confusing" LOL.

Sure using a book to check my BS list is an option. It is just a slower option to using the book to make the list in the first place. I've seen mistakes both ways, but far more often for me with battlescribe than on my own. As for changes, easy enough if you have a print out to write in the new points value. Further the more points are updated the more likely battlescribe is to have mistakes. I'm not suggesting that it is bad for people to use, just bad for them to trust as an alternative to a codex, and not my preferred method of list writing both because I find it slower and I don't like the way the list looks when printed vs the format of my own lists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tokhuah wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tokhuah wrote:
Because of Battlescribe I will never pay for any books published by GW ever again.

This is a bad idea because there are plenty of rules not in BS, in addition points are wrong pretty frequently.

Since I do not play in tournaments this is not a big deal. What I think is a bad idea is to pay into this money grab extravaganza:

Rule Book $60 (worse rule book value of any game I have ever played)
Index $25
Codex $40
Chapter Approved $?
Next Chapter Approved $?
Yet Another Chapter...

This is especially true if you are playing Orks or Necrons who will not even get Codex until this edition is 1/3 over.

Because you know the shelf life of this edition? Paying $20 per year for Chapter approved seems fine to me, and even not in tournament I like to have my rules correct, have access to all the strategems etc.

Vaxx wrote:
So making a list using excel or a pen and paper is so much better? I dont see it.

I have seen more mistakes with someone adding up their points manually than in Battlescribe. Making a list in BS and then checking it against a codex is also an option, you know?

Also at least BS updates regularly unlike books.....Index points/rules, now FAQ points/rules....now codex points/rules.....more FAQ points/rules.....oh chapter approved coming now too.

The dude that puts his lists on index cards better have a good eraser.

Face it....books get outdated. After a (short) while they are not 100% accurate. Especially at the speed GW has been shooting these out.

I just feel people that are complaining about digital lists and devices running out of battery are kind of stuck in the past. Dont want to trying something new.....because "I always wrote my list". At the same time they have 4 books, index cards, post it notes, and color coded page arrows, yet shy away from a digital list because "Its sooooooooo confusing" LOL.

The nice thing about the index card idea is that once you have them right, they're right until the books change. Next time battlescribe, or army builder, or ANY of those programs has an update, you don't know what exactly changed, you have to spot check everything.

Guy who writes out the index cards has to doublecheck them and make sure he did the math the first time. Pretty easy to tell if they've been changed each time though. They go out of date? Replace the ones that aren't relevant anymore. Done deal.

Final table at SCO was a forfeit I believe because one of the players miscalculated their points.

BS may screw up the points occasionally, but it's certainly right a lot more often than it's wrong. I like BS, I think for what is essentially freeware, they make a good product.

My opponent having a printed BS list fills me with a lot more confidence than some random showing up with his hand-written list, regardless of how pretty the formatting is.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's the best thing available. I also found this cool online list builder called HQbuilder but they are REALLY slow to update - plus it requires a internet connection. It's the next best thing though.

Yeah, I'm trying it right now and this is much better and more intuitive. Like the AoS one that is in the Community Page (A little more complicated because 40k listbuilding is more complex)

Just trying a random Tau army to test it, and how it blocks you the options after you have already select alt the possibilities with the Tau Commander, really, really nice.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Final table at SCO was a forfeit I believe because one of the players miscalculated their points.

BS may screw up the points occasionally, but it's certainly right a lot more often than it's wrong. I like BS, I think for what is essentially freeware, they make a good product.

My opponent having a printed BS list fills me with a lot more confidence than some random showing up with his hand-written list, regardless of how pretty the formatting is.

I've seen much the opposite, so to each their own. Just in my own lists this edition I have had battlescribe have noticeable errors at least 10 times. It fills me with no more confidence than the guy with the computer print out list (chicken scratch on paper is worse). Especially when I have run into a number of players with no books relying on battle scribe for their rules.

 Tokhuah wrote:
Because of Battlescribe I will never pay for any books published by GW ever again.

This is the one gripe I have with BattleScribe. I wish they did not enable this behavior as it is likely to get them pulled down.

I don’t care that people may be getting away without buying the books, mind you. Go for it! But I dislike when it impacts legitimate use of a tool.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

My opponent having a printed BS list fills me with a lot more confidence than some random showing up with his hand-written list, regardless of how pretty the formatting is.

It's also a lot easier to cheat on, simply because you're so willing to give it a pass. I've never come across anyone who would deliberately do so, but remember that those files aren't validated by the program in any meaningful way.

...not that'd I'd be that worried about someone trying to cheat me at toy soldiers. But I'm not going to say something's authentic simply because it's on a computer.

I'm really more worried about people's bad handwriting than I am people's paper math being off.

 deviantduck wrote:
Army Builder > Battlescribe. So, I hope the AB guys are hard at work on converting to 8th. I mainly use battlescribe to total my points for me then I transcribe my list into my custom excel sheet for colorful 1 page printing. The BS printed output is so awful. So, so, so awful.

Just NO. As a user of AB all the way back to the 90's, I will NEVER go back to AB. And while I'm pretty proficient at Excel (I've built two work apps out of excel and have done a ton of Access programming), I use BS as a shortcut to hand-entering all the stuff myself.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 Tokhuah wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tokhuah wrote:
Because of Battlescribe I will never pay for any books published by GW ever again.

This is a bad idea because there are plenty of rules not in BS, in addition points are wrong pretty frequently.

Since I do not play in tournaments this is not a big deal. What I think is a bad idea is to pay into this money grab extravaganza:

Rule Book $60 (worse rule book value of any game I have ever played)
Index $25
Codex $40
Chapter Approved $?
Next Chapter Approved $?
Yet Another Chapter...

This is especially true if you are playing Orks or Necrons who will not even get Codex until this edition is 1/3 over.

Given your opinion on the matter' isn't foolish to pursue this hobby at all?

Idea of the day!
Although I love the hobby I believe It's foolish to spend the type of money they demand to keep up. But if things keep selling they going to keep doing it and rake it in$$$ of course. Rule updates should be free imo.

Edit to answer the OP yes battle scribe is a great tool but should not be used alone

 daedalus wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

My opponent having a printed BS list fills me with a lot more confidence than some random showing up with his hand-written list, regardless of how pretty the formatting is.

It's also a lot easier to cheat on, simply because you're so willing to give it a pass. I've never come across anyone who would deliberately do so, but remember that those files aren't validated by the program in any meaningful way.

...not that'd I'd be that worried about someone trying to cheat me at toy soldiers. But I'm not going to say something's authentic simply because it's on a computer.

I'm really more worried about people's bad handwriting than I am people's paper math being off.

I think the point here is that while you're writing a list by hand it's literally zero additional effort to cheat. Just "forget" to calculate those plasma guns, or "forget" to use the BS3+ price for them. If you're using battlescribe or ANY tool you have to actually put effort into cheating.

nekooni wrote:

I think the point here is that while you're writing a list by hand it's literally zero additional effort to cheat. Just "forget" to calculate those plasma guns, or "forget" to use the BS3+ price for them. If you're using battlescribe or ANY tool you have to actually put effort into cheating.

In the time it took me to read your comment, I've already given myself 7 point plasmaguns across the board in my version of the datafiles. And I'd never looked at them before.

I mean, it's deliberate effort, but you're also probably less inclined to notice.

Breng77 wrote:
I've seen much the opposite, so to each their own. Just in my own lists this edition I have had battlescribe have noticeable errors at least 10 times. It fills me with no more confidence than the guy with the computer print out list (chicken scratch on paper is worse). Especially when I have run into a number of players with no books relying on battle scribe for their rules.

I play most of the Imperium factions (well, and Tyranids now), and while there are always mistakes right after a new book comes out, those mistakes are usually straightened out within a few weeks. FAQs and errata are usually incorporated within a few weeks, too. After that they're pretty much free of errors.

So just
a) wait until a catalogue is finished and had a few weeks to mature before you trust it without double-checking
b) never assume that BS is perfect

If something seems odd in BS, check your book.

I should probably change that back now, before I forget.

 daedalus wrote:

nekooni wrote:

I think the point here is that while you're writing a list by hand it's literally zero additional effort to cheat. Just "forget" to calculate those plasma guns, or "forget" to use the BS3+ price for them. If you're using battlescribe or ANY tool you have to actually put effort into cheating.

In the time it took me to read your comment, I've already given myself 7 point plasmaguns across the board in my version of the datafiles. And I'd never looked at them before.

I mean, it's deliberate effort, but you're also probably less inclined to notice.

I don't validate lists tbh, so it's a moot point - I'm not a tournament player, and outside of "what, how is this thing so cheap, are you serious?" I don't ask anything about the other players point costs.
But all I'm saying is that it took you some effort. You had to know how to change your data files which I'm confident is only a minority, and you had to actually do it, and then build your list. That's obviously more effort than just not adding the plasmagun properly on your sheet of paper, isn't it?

And yeah, I'm gonna guess those files are XML structures and pretty easy to feth with if you're familiar with those.

nekooni wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

nekooni wrote:

I think the point here is that while you're writing a list by hand it's literally zero additional effort to cheat. Just "forget" to calculate those plasma guns, or "forget" to use the BS3+ price for them. If you're using battlescribe or ANY tool you have to actually put effort into cheating.

In the time it took me to read your comment, I've already given myself 7 point plasmaguns across the board in my version of the datafiles. And I'd never looked at them before.

I mean, it's deliberate effort, but you're also probably less inclined to notice.

I don't validate lists tbh, so it's a moot point - I'm not a tournament player, and outside of "what, how is this thing so cheap, are you serious?" I don't ask anything about the other players point costs.
But all I'm saying is that it took you some effort. You had to know how to change your data files which I'm confident is only a minority, and you had to actually do it, and then build your list. That's obviously more effort than just not adding the plasmagun properly on your sheet of paper, isn't it?

And yeah, I'm gonna guess those files are XML structures and pretty easy to feth with if you're familiar with those.

Exactly. As someone pointed out earlier, sins of omission are much more likely in handwritten scenarios than sins of deliberate file manipulation are within the context of BS, which I agree, are not difficult if you know what you're looking for and how to do it.

Funny thing is, xml files open without problems in notepad and they are plain English so it's really easy to find a unit or weapon and it's point cost.

nekooni wrote:

I don't validate lists tbh, so it's a moot point - I'm not a tournament player, and outside of "what, how is this thing so cheap, are you serious?" I don't ask anything about the other players point costs.
But all I'm saying is that it took you some effort. You had to know how to change your data files which I'm confident is only a minority, and you had to actually do it, and then build your list. That's obviously more effort than just not adding the plasmagun properly on your sheet of paper, isn't it?

And yeah, I'm gonna guess those files are XML structures and pretty easy to feth with if you're familiar with those.

Don't actually know what format they are, to be honest. If they're like the AB ones, they're XML and so poorly thought out that they're practically unparsable. Nah, I actually did it through the gui data editor (which felt a bit nicer than the actual roster editor) that BS installs by default whenever you install the actual app. It's just about two minutes of point and click. Hardest part was figuring out where the data files were, which was a directory deeper than the default.

But yeah, sins of omission versus deliberate tampering. I can't say if one's more common than the other. I just wanted to point out that nothing is foolproof if some fool sticks their hand inside and starts fiddling with the bits.

 daedalus wrote:

But yeah, sins of omission versus deliberate tampering. I can't say if one's more common than the other. I just wanted to point out that nothing is foolproof if some fool sticks their hand inside and starts fiddling with the bits.

Absolutely, nothing is foolproof. But as someone who has been supporting end users for awhile now, I would say from personal experience that ignorance is sometimes the best form of security. What users don't know they don't usually break.

That being said, sudo rm -rf / happens.

nekooni wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
I've seen much the opposite, so to each their own. Just in my own lists this edition I have had battlescribe have noticeable errors at least 10 times. It fills me with no more confidence than the guy with the computer print out list (chicken scratch on paper is worse). Especially when I have run into a number of players with no books relying on battle scribe for their rules.

I play most of the Imperium factions (well, and Tyranids now), and while there are always mistakes right after a new book comes out, those mistakes are usually straightened out within a few weeks. FAQs and errata are usually incorporated within a few weeks, too. After that they're pretty much free of errors.

So just
a) wait until a catalogue is finished and had a few weeks to mature before you trust it without double-checking
b) never assume that BS is perfect

If something seems odd in BS, check your book.

In orks I was finding errors up until about 2 weeks ago, so that would be almost 6 months, for Dark Angels it was about 3 months. SO IT was quite a bit of time before things were correct. If I'm assuming it isn't perfect already I can just use my book and excel and more easily make a list, and if I find errors in the BS data it is harder to change those than it is to change my list.

All that said the advantage to "hand writing lists" is also that you learn more of the points values for things, and thus can more easily tell when things are wrong. Several of the BS errors I found I would not have picked up on if I wasn't writing my lists by hand other wise, or trying to re-do my lists in excel ("hey why doesn't this add up correctly")

My feeling is more often than not people that rely on the app don't bother to check their lists, and those using it as a replacement for a book, cannot check it anyway.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
That being said, sudo rm -rf / happens.

Hah. I did that once at work on accident. Thank god it was a testing vm and not a prod box or something.

But the point is received.

I like it, makes it easier to add the points together and see what I can cram into my army lists.

I love Battlescribe and used it since 8th came out. There are a few mistakes but they usually are remedied quickly.

The part that I don't understand is that GW hasn't come up with something for 40k.
I would even pay for it if it was official from GW!

Racerguy180 wrote:
I love Battlescribe and used it since 8th came out. There are a few mistakes but they usually are remedied quickly.

The part that I don't understand is that GW hasn't come up with something for 40k.
I would even pay for it if it was official from GW!

Agreed, although given how long it took for GW to embrace anything electronic or online, I'm not holding out too much hope.

Yeah, I was surprised there were PDFs of the 8e stuff, honestly.

M.

 Infantryman wrote:
Yeah, I was surprised there were PDFs of the 8e stuff, honestly.

M.

...there isn't. Surely you meant the epub version, right? Right?

 daedalus wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:
Yeah, I was surprised there were PDFs of the 8e stuff, honestly.

M.

...there isn't. Surely you meant the epub version, right? Right?

You are correct; was thinking "digital format" and PDF came to mind first.

M.

Ive only recently started using Battlescribe to brainstorm list ideas. So much easier than the endless scraps of paper I would write up, and inevitably lose.

BUT it irks me to no end when my opponent is using Battlescribe as their codex. Alot of rules and info isn't listed, and only after the game, during my own research do I find glaring mistakes in the way we were playing things.

Yeah, I will use Battlescribe if I have a quick idea I don't want to lose in my head, or want a quick estimate of how much my army will cost in points. I don't see it as a replacement for your Codex/Index, but is a good tool for estimating army values.

I much prefer to use Spreadsheets and will always advise the use of Spreadsheets over BattleScribe. Spreadsheets allow you to make sure your lists are 100% correct with regards to things like options and points costs, and it is always easy to stay up to date with the right information. For me, BattleScribe generally has too many errors in it and is less intuitive for me than writing out a list on a Spreadsheet.

Vaxx wrote:
So making a list using excel or a pen and paper is so much better? I dont see it.

I have seen more mistakes with someone adding up their points manually than in Battlescribe. Making a list in BS and then checking it against a codex is also an option, you know?

Also at least BS updates regularly unlike books.....Index points/rules, now FAQ points/rules....now codex points/rules.....more FAQ points/rules.....oh chapter approved coming now too.

The dude that puts his lists on index cards better have a good eraser.

Face it....books get outdated. After a (short) while they are not 100% accurate. Especially at the speed GW has been shooting these out.

I just feel people that are complaining about digital lists and devices running out of battery are kind of stuck in the past. Dont want to trying something new.....because "I always wrote my list". At the same time they have 4 books, index cards, post it notes, and color coded page arrows, yet shy away from a digital list because "Its sooooooooo confusing" LOL.

To be honest I have never run into the problem of books being out-dated. FAQ answers and FAQ changes to rules can usually be found and accounted for pretty easily, Ideces and Codeces aren't getting changed to often or significantly that it is difficult to keep up with the changes, and I'd be willing to be that the changes made by any given issue of Chapter Approved can either be found pretty easily online or simply ignored for the sake of playing the game. The app being constantly is to be expected of the app and is - at least to my mind - not the advantage that it holds over the books. And let's be honest: If you're making a list with BS and you have to check it against your Codex/Index, Chapter Approved, etc, then why did you make it with BS in the first place? Why not just use Codex/Index, Chapter Approved, etc to build the list and be 100% sure the first time round?

Building lists with pen and paper seems to produce messy pieces of paper with no structure and often incorrectly points-costed lists because they made careless mistakes when adding up. So Pen + Paper is probably the worst way to do it.

I maintain that the use of a Spreadsheet (such as MS Office or OpenOffice Spreadsheets) is the best way because you can be 100% sure that the options you're giving your units are possible (because you'll have all the relevant documents in front of you) and you'll have access to all the correct points values. If you're seeing people adding up points incorrectly, then they've either listed the points value for something(s) incorrectly or don't know how to do addition (which is worrying). After a while, you also learn exactly what costs how many points which can be useful if you need to make quick adjustments to your lists or are writing your umpteenth list.

Compare what I've said in the above paragraph to BS. BS - in my experience - is always missing some very trivial things. For example - for a period of several months during the days of 7th Edition, you could not add Artificer Armour to a Space Marine Captain even though it was an option. Given that I'm surely not the only one who would have picked up on that, it seems silly that such a mistake could stay live on the app for so long. The there were always erroneous points values for models and weapons which also seemed to stay live on the app for relatively long periods of time making the points values for lists often quite wrong.

In light of all the aforementioned, I'd rather spend the little extra time with a Spreadsheet writing my list than using BS because BS is more likely to get points costs and unit options wrong than I am. And if anyone is getting points costs and options wrong more often than BS when they go to write their lists on Spreadsheets, then that's either sloppiness or stupidity.

 Tokhuah wrote:
Since I do not play in tournaments this is not a big deal. What I think is a bad idea is to pay into this money grab extravaganza:

Rule Book $60 (worse rule book value of any game I have ever played)
Index $25
Codex $40
Chapter Approved $?
Next Chapter Approved $?
Yet Another Chapter...

This is especially true if you are playing Orks or Necrons who will not even get Codex until this edition is 1/3 over.

OK let's break this down:
-- The rulebook is always a good buy, regardless of your army, whether you get it as a physical or electronic copy, etc etc etc, and is core to playing a game in 8th Edition. So complaining about the cost of the rulebook is - in my mind - silly because it's not overpriced (thus meaning that there is no real reason to complain other than you not being willing to spend the money).

-- The Index is only something you buy in two situations: 1) You were super keen to get playing 8th Edition right away; or 2) Your Codex's release date is a long way down the track. If you were in Group 1, I'm sure there are ways - both legal and otherwise - that would have allowed you to play, especially since you've made the implication that you're a relatively casual 40K gamer. If you're in Group 2, the yeah it sucks, but the expenditure (probably close to the $120 mark if you live in Aus) is over a number of months. Also: If you're getting truly pissy over an extra $40 for the Index in a hobby that is costing you hundreds if not thousands of dollars, then I feel you may need to take a step back and review your position with regards to this hobby.

-- For the Chapter Approved stuff, I still think it's a worthwhile investment regardless of whether or not your codex is out. I think of it no differently to buying another unit of models or the Tactical Objective cards for my Faction or a new box of dice.

 IllumiNini wrote:
Spreadsheets allow you to make sure your lists are 100% correct with regards to things like options and points costs

Exactly everyone who stares at spreadsheets for a living - or even a couple times a week - is going to tell you that's pucky.

Like, if you want to do spreadsheets go for it - I used to really enjoy hand-writing or keying lists back in the day - but don't think Spreadsheets have some magical property to them that makes them any more correct than anything else.

If you spot an error in BattleScribe, you can fix it yourself right in their little editor tool.

M.

I attached the index cards I made for all the units I can make with the models I have. I took each 10-man squad and broke them down into 2 5-man squads (labeled A and B respectively) I have them all printed and cut out so when I go to play, I just pull the units I want to use adding the totals of each unit together until I reach the set amount.

 Infantryman wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:
Spreadsheets allow you to make sure your lists are 100% correct with regards to things like options and points costs

Exactly everyone who stares at spreadsheets for a living - or even a couple times a week - is going to tell you that's pucky.

I completely disagree with this for the following reasons:

-- The amount of information you put on a Spreadsheet for any single list (regardless of whether or not you mix Factions like AM + SM) is still quite minimal [ See the attached Spreadsheet Document (open-able in OpenOffice) ]. In other words, there's simply not enough information on the Spreadsheet for you to be making (careless) errors.

-- Especially with the previous point in mind: If you're making errors with regards to which options you can take or the points costs, then that's you being careless with reading the rules of your armies and/or being careless with filling out the Spreadsheet. If you're making errors with regards to which options you can take or the points costs, that's on you and not the fault of the Spreadsheets or the nature of working with Spreadsheets.

-- If you're points values are incorrect due to being added up wrong, then that is also on you. Given that the Spreadsheets I've uploaded are in my experience typical in size of 40K Lists on a Spreadsheet, then the only way that the points can be added up wrong - assuming everything else is correct - is for you to make an error, which is definitely on you and is very, VERY easy to avoid.

Errors are so easy to avoid when writing a 40K List on a Spreadsheet, especially given that the Spreadsheets are not very big at all and the most complicated function you ever have to use the the "=sum()" function (which is very hard to get wrong).

 Infantryman wrote:
Like, if you want to do spreadsheets go for it - I used to really enjoy hand-writing or keying lists back in the day - but don't think Spreadsheets have some magical property to them that makes them any more correct than anything else.

You're right - Spreadsheets have no inherent "Magical" properties that make them any more correct than any other method of writing lists, but remember things like the following:

-- A Spreadsheet doesn't ever possess errors such as my Artificer Armour example.

-- Not that other tools like BS and whatnot are complex or hard to learn, but let's be honest: A majority of people (I'm tempted to say a Vast majority) already know how to use Spreadsheets on a basic level (which is all you need to write a List since - as I said - the most complex function you use is the "=sum()" function). And people at least have access to a free Spreadsheet software: OpenOffice.

-- Unless you find youself making mistakes all the time when reading points values or options off a page, it's actually very hard to make mistakes when writing a 40K List on Spreadsheet.

And I'll admit: BattleScribe is - at least 95% of the time - bang on the money with its content and a good tool to use when writing lists, but with your book(s) in front of you, it is practically impossible for you to make mistakes with a Spreadsheet unless you're needlessly careless and - especially with the internet literally at your fingertips in this day and age - you have all the up-to-date resources.

 Infantryman wrote:
If you spot an error in BattleScribe, you can fix it yourself right in their little editor tool.

That's fair, but I shouldn't have to learn how to use this tool - regardless of its complexity - just to be able to write a list. If you use Spreadsheets, not only do you not need to learn how to use this tool, but the need for such a tool is inherently not there.

-- A Spreadsheet doesn't ever possess errors such as my Artificer Armour example.

Your post had spelling errors. It's even easier not to catch a "6" on something that should be a "5".

M.

 Infantryman wrote:

-- A Spreadsheet doesn't ever possess errors such as my Artificer Armour example.

Your post had spelling errors.

Could you point them out for me please? I don't see any.

But let's be honest: The odd mistake here or there with spelling on a forum post is hardly something worth putting the effort into in order to avoid careless mistakes. Even the spelling you use when building a list is not important. Who's going to care if you spelled "Power Fist" with two r's at the end of Power and no s in Fist as long as you got the points value right? They're going to be able to tell that it was a Power Fist; and as long as it's a legal option for the model you gave it to and the points value is correct, who is ultimately going to care? That being said, you don't tend to write a lot of different words when you're writing a list so your spelling should be perfect or near-perfect anyway, but my point still stands.

When you're making a list, you'll either be reading a point value off a page (it's the same with options). The only time this is not the case is when you know details like the back of my hand. For example, I know that in 7th Edition, as baseline 5-Man Tactical Squad was 70 Points, a Power Sword was 15 Points, and Tactical Squads require ten models in order to take both a Heavy Weapon and Special Weapon while Crusader Squads had no such restriction. This meant that I never had to check my Codex for these units or options because I know the units, I know their costs, I knew the options they had, and I knew how much their options cost. In either case, there is no excuse, especially if you double check your work (which is neither hard or time-consuming considering a vast majority of your time is dedicated to deciding what's in your list and writing it down).

 Infantryman wrote:
It's even easier not to catch a "6" on something that should be a "5".

Going off the back of what I said above in this post, this should never happen by virtue of having the books in front of you and double checking your work.


Writing a list on a Spreadsheet is not some insanely difficult thing filled with erroneous entries and incorrect maths. It's actually very easy to do and very easy to avoid errors assuming you care about it more than I care about my spelling here on this forum. I've also noticed that a vast majority (if not all) of the people who have said that Spreadsheets are inferior to BattleScribe for whatever reason not only use BattleScribe regularly but also have barely if ever used Spreadsheets to create lists (in a vast majority of cases, they never have used Spreadsheets for lists at all). Curious, no?

If you're points values are incorrect due to...

And there's the rub - it's there, you didn't see it even after you were told. So much for a double check!

And how is it I can double-check a spreadsheet but not an XML file?

M.

kaotkbliss wrote:
I attached the index cards I made for all the units I can make with the models I have. I took each 10-man squad and broke them down into 2 5-man squads (labeled A and B respectively) I have them all printed and cut out so when I go to play, I just pull the units I want to use adding the totals of each unit together until I reach the set amount.

Then what if you want to change squad sizes and equipment quickly?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 IllumiNini wrote:

But let's be honest: The odd mistake here or there with spelling on a forum post is hardly something worth putting the effort into in order to avoid careless mistakes. Even the spelling you use when building a list is not important. Who's going to care if you spelled "Power Fist" with two r's at the end of Power and no s in Fist as long as you got the points value right? They're going to be able to tell that it was a Power Fist; and as long as it's a legal option for the model you gave it to and the points value is correct, who is ultimately going to care? That being said, you don't tend to write a lot of different words when you're writing a list so your spelling should be perfect or near-perfect anyway, but my point still stands.

When you're making a list, you'll either be reading a point value off a page (it's the same with options). The only time this is not the case is when you know details like the back of my hand. For example, I know that in 7th Edition, as baseline 5-Man Tactical Squad was 70 Points, a Power Sword was 15 Points, and Tactical Squads require ten models in order to take both a Heavy Weapon and Special Weapon while Crusader Squads had no such restriction. This meant that I never had to check my Codex for these units or options because I know the units, I know their costs, I knew the options they had, and I knew how much their options cost. In either case, there is no excuse, especially if you double check your work (which is neither hard or time-consuming considering a vast majority of your time is dedicated to deciding what's in your list and writing it down).

Either way you need to keep checking index or have some interesting spreadsheet automated calculation and all points in spreadsheet to allow you to say put in 8 tactical marines with missile launcher and have it automatically calculate it for you. If you need to check points(and if you don't human errors WILL happen) then that's not that much more helpful than pen&paper especially if you shuffle units in and out.

and if you double check from codex points...Well gee same can be done with battle scribe. Except you don't need to do it every time you make army list.

Infantryman wrote:

If you're points values are incorrect due to...

And there's the rub - it's there, you didn't see it even after you were told. So much for a double check!

Well I'm still waiting because you being a smart-ass isn't an answer to my question. Where's the spelling error?

Infantryman wrote:And how is it I can double-check a spreadsheet but not an XML file?

You open it with OpenOffice. It's a free piece of software that does a few things like word processing, spreadsheets, etc. It is definitely rather good if you don't have access to programs you have to pay for like Microsoft Office.

tneva82 wrote:Either way you need to keep checking index or have some interesting spreadsheet automated calculation and all points in spreadsheet to allow you to say put in 8 tactical marines with missile launcher and have it automatically calculate it for you. If you need to check points(and if you don't human errors WILL happen) then that's not that much more helpful than pen&paper especially if you shuffle units in and out.

I'm not sure how Spreadsheets compare to pen and paper overall since I've never actually used pen and paper to write a list, but Spreadsheets are definitely easier to use. Think of it like writing a story, poem or essay using pen and paper vs writing a story, poem or essay using Microsoft Word. As for shuffling units, options, etc in and out, it's actually very easy. Take for example a baseline 5-Man Tactical Squad with a Combi-Plasma on the Sergeant. The baseline squad will go on one line on the spreadsheet, the Combi-Plasma will go on the next, then you sum it all up using the sum function. Want to add in another option like a Plasma Gun? Add in another row or set of cells (depending on how your spreadsheet is set up) for the squad and type it in. Want to get rid of something? Delete the cells. Want to switch an option out? Replace the data in the appropriate cells. It may not be easier per se than the equivalent on pen and paper, but at the very least it's neater.

tneva82 wrote:and if you double check from codex points...Well gee same can be done with battle scribe. Except you don't need to do it every time you make army list.

Fair call. That is definitely one area where spreadsheets fall short, but when you become well verse in points like I was with 7th Edition, the need to double check points values and options for units is no longer there. Admittedly I only ever played Vanilla Space Marines so it was easy for me to do that, but the point still stands.


Before I go any further though, I do think that BattleScribe is a good program and good for building lists. It just isn't as good for me as Spreadsheets because the errors I tend to find in BattleScribe like my Artificer Armour example as well as the fact that I find myself being able to create lists rather quickly in terms of the time spent typing and so forth (comes with the practice, I guess).

 IllumiNini wrote:
You open it with OpenOffice. It's a free piece of software that does a few things like word processing, spreadsheets, etc. It is definitely rather good if you don't have access to programs you have to pay for like Microsoft Office.

And for the same effort you can double check BS. Of course that's once and done(at least until GW changes point values, not often) at which point it's second check. With spreadsheet same assuming you have automated excel sheet that calculates squad you typed in automatically but creating such spreadsheet takes more effort than using BS.

I'm not sure how Spreadsheets compare to pen and paper overall since I've never actually used pen and paper to write a list, but Spreadsheets are definitely easier to use. Think of it like writing a story, poem or essay using pen and paper vs writing a story, poem or essay using Microsoft Word. As for shuffling units, options, etc in and out, it's actually very easy. Take for example a baseline 5-Man Tactical Squad with a Combi-Plasma on the Sergeant. The baseline squad will go on one line on the spreadsheet, the Combi-Plasma will go on the next, then you sum it all up using the sum function. Want to add in another option like a Plasma Gun? Add in another row or set of cells (depending on how your spreadsheet is set up) for the squad and type it in. Want to get rid of something? Delete the cells. Want to switch an option out? Replace the data in the appropriate cells. It may not be easier per se than the equivalent on pen and paper, but at the very least it's neater.

and where those points come? Automatically from spreadsheet(requires more than little bit) or copying it from codex?

with BS software does it all automatically for you. Do the data check once, done. Keep using automatically.

Fair call. That is definitely one area where spreadsheets fall short, but when you become well verse in points like I was with 7th Edition, the need to double check points values and options for units is no longer there. Admittedly I only ever played Vanilla Space Marines so it was easy for me to do that, but the point still stands.

If you don't double check but rely on human memory then you are quaranteed for human errors. BS doesnt' do that. Once you have checked points are correct that's it. It doesn't go "oops points value was incorrect". 40k has too many point values to remember 100% accurately.

tneva82 wrote:
And for the same effort you can double check BS. Of course that's once and done(at least until GW changes point values, not often) at which point it's second check. With spreadsheet same assuming you have automated excel sheet that calculates squad you typed in automatically but creating such spreadsheet takes more effort than using BS.

To be honest it doesn't take all that much effort, especially when you copy-paste things and/or are used to typing it out. Think of it kinda like touch-typing: It might be a little daunting at first, but once you get it down, it's relatively quick and easy. Though I will admit that BS is - more often than not - mildly quicker. But since I'm proficient at using the spreadsheet method to write my lists, the time I may save by using BS isn't enough to justify giving up Spreadsheets to use BS.

tneva82 wrote:
and where those points come? Automatically from spreadsheet(requires more than little bit) or copying it from codex?

The points come from the codex. Not all that time consuming, especially now they have the points values all at the back of the codex.

tneva82 wrote:
If you don't double check but rely on human memory then you are quaranteed for human errors. BS doesnt' do that. Once you have checked points are correct that's it. It doesn't go "oops points value was incorrect". 40k has too many point values to remember 100% accurately.

I wouldn't say it guarantees human error. Increase the risk of it? Sure, but guarantee? No. Plus if you use it all the time - for example if you use Tactical Squads in most of not all of your lists, you're almost surely going to know with 100% certainty that they are 13 Points per model. I use power Swords a lot in my list, so I know that in 7th Edition they were 15 Points and they're 4 Points in 8th Edition. So yes there is the increased risk of human error, but when you get the the point where you can rely on it for at least some things, then you can be pretty damn sure you got the right points value and save yourself some time as well.

And you're never going to remember all your points values for everything with 100% accuracy, but if I know the points values for the units I use most commonly in my list, then that can help me save time with my method. For example, I'm very familiar with the points values for Crusader Squads, Land Raider Crusaders, and Terminator Assault Squads because I use them often in my lists, but I don't know the points values for Primaris units very well at all because I haven't used them regularly in my lists. The knowledge I do have helps me right lists quicker.

This method does start to fall apart the minute you start playing more armies because of having more than one Codex, which is why for those who have more than one army, BattleScribe may work better for you for this reason if for no other.

I can build an army list in under 10 minutes... never had any major problems.

 IllumiNini wrote:

Infantryman wrote:

If you're points values are incorrect due to...

And there's the rub - it's there, you didn't see it even after you were told. So much for a double check!

Well I'm still waiting because you being a smart-ass isn't an answer to my question. Where's the spelling error?

You're should be your.

You're means you are, versus Your, as in Your Mama.


but on other things you are right. Spreadsheets are only as good as the person who writes them and ensures they are diligent in making sure they use the right info and double-checking their inputs.

Glinch wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:

Infantryman wrote:

If you're points values are incorrect due to...

And there's the rub - it's there, you didn't see it even after you were told. So much for a double check!

Well I'm still waiting because you being a smart-ass isn't an answer to my question. Where's the spelling error?

You're should be your.

You're means you are, versus Your, as in Your Mama.

Derpa derp derp. Thanks

Glinch wrote:
but on other things you are right. Spreadsheets are only as good as the person who writes them and ensures they are diligent in making sure they use the right info and double-checking their inputs.

Thanks for summing it up. Summing things up has never been my strong suit (Definitely part of why I sucked at writing essays, or maybe that was because I'm a Mathematician... ). But yeah, as long as you're ( ) diligent about it, you'll be fine. I hope you believe me when I say I'm more diligent about my numbers than I am about my spelling haha

It was right in the quote, dude.

Anyways, the point is, BattleScribe works. Use it if you like. Or don't, if you like.

M.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's the best thing available. I also found this cool online list builder called HQbuilder but they are REALLY slow to update - plus it requires a internet connection. It's the next best thing though.

I just looked at this, but its rules for IG are screwed up completely.

tneva82 wrote:

kaotkbliss wrote:
I attached the index cards I made for all the units I can make with the models I have. I took each 10-man squad and broke them down into 2 5-man squads (labeled A and B respectively) I have them all printed and cut out so when I go to play, I just pull the units I want to use adding the totals of each unit together until I reach the set amount.

Then what if you want to change squad sizes and equipment quickly?

I won't. While I do not require my opponents to do so, I always play my models WYSIWYG so there is no swapping weapons for me unless I physically swap weapons on the model. I've also got the same unit listed as 10 man or 2 5 man squads so the size option is already there.

If I really must change something, then I just go into my database and make the adjustment. Then run the program to create the pdf again. (I use GMC Inspire to create this which unfortunately is not a household program but it's the same idea as using index cards)

kaotkbliss wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

kaotkbliss wrote:
I attached the index cards I made for all the units I can make with the models I have. I took each 10-man squad and broke them down into 2 5-man squads (labeled A and B respectively) I have them all printed and cut out so when I go to play, I just pull the units I want to use adding the totals of each unit together until I reach the set amount.

Then what if you want to change squad sizes and equipment quickly?

I won't. While I do not require my opponents to do so, I always play my models WYSIWYG so there is no swapping weapons for me unless I physically swap weapons on the model. I've also got the same unit listed as 10 man or 2 5 man squads so the size option is already there.

If I really must change something, then I just go into my database and make the adjustment. Then run the program to create the pdf again. (I use GMC Inspire to create this which unfortunately is not a household program but it's the same idea as using index cards)

I play WYSIWYG but then again I can alter unit sizes etc just fine which makes sense thematically. Casualties ensure units are rarely at full sizes or even sizes.