What tier would you consider the Ork army to be in 8th edition. This is based off the entire army not just the top tournament list.

Below all the codex-armies, and below index tyranids, SOB, and Asuryani. But above index craftworld, index-tau and index-necrons.

I really don't know where that puts us. I think the best comparison is with Tau really. Tau has their commanders and we have our greentide. But the rest of both indexes is a wasteland competetively.

I honestly have yet to play 8th ed necrons, but at minimum their army special rules seem incredibly strong. It would be hard for me to rate orks above necrons, based on what I've seen from youtube batreps.

I'd give you tau, though, played them a couple times.

But basically anything but boyz rank from not-so-great to bad to dumpster fire. And boyz are getting worse and worse with everything getting up-gunned to hell and back.

Easily bottom tier. We may have some company at the bottom, but we're definitely resting comfortably down there.

What's worse, I can scarcely imagine of what our codex would have to do to make us not bottom tier. As long as cover, falling back, and ridiculous stacking aura abilities remain unchanged, I don't see HOW orks could be good, beyond something ridiculous like 'everything half price and double shots and attacks'.

I could be wrong, but I've been playing for about 5 years, and "making orks not suck" has never been a priority for geedubz. And I don't really expect that to change this time around.

Currently, orks kinda suck. Almost everything is either garbage or overpriced (excluding some units like boyz), and the only way to use them competitively is to spam boyz, which I never found to be any fun.
The orks either need a buff, or at least a points reduction for most units.
The forgeworld models for orks aren't great either. Most of them are okay, but not something that I would really want to take for a competitive game.
Hopefully the codex can fix this when it comes.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I honestly have yet to play 8th ed necrons, but at minimum their army special rules seem incredibly strong. It would be hard for me to rate orks above necrons, based on what I've seen from youtube batreps.

I'd give you tau, though, played them a couple times.

But basically anything but boyz rank from not-so-great to bad to dumpster fire. And boyz are getting worse and worse with everything getting up-gunned to hell and back.

Easily bottom tier. We may have some company at the bottom, but we're definitely resting comfortably down there.

What's worse, I can scarcely imagine of what our codex would have to do to make us not bottom tier. As long as cover, falling back, and ridiculous stacking aura abilities remain unchanged, I don't see HOW orks could be good, beyond something ridiculous like 'everything half price and double shots and attacks'.

I could be wrong, but I've been playing for about 5 years, and "making orks not suck" has never been a priority for geedubz. And I don't really expect that to change this time around.

Orks are pretty bad this edition, mostly due to the rather terrible internal balance in their index. However, I do think Necrons compete with Tau for the worst faction in 8th at the moment. Their faction special rule is a downgrade to last edition, and many units are egregiously overcosted.

You have to consider that they have a decent army that does well in tournaments, and also, that they don't even have a codex yet.

Orks finished ahead of Ultramarines in the SoCal open.

Not saying Orks don't need a buff. But consider this for a moment. Ultramarines have a primarch and a codex. And didn't do as well as Orks.

So are they worst army? No, not at all. There are a lot of armies - including Xenos - well behind them. Dark Eldar, Necrons, Tyranids (at least, pre-codex) were all much worse than Orks.

My personal preference would be Ork buffs, to be in line with the Tyranid codex. These two armies are similar and should be fairly evenly matched on the table.

Orks have two competitive lists. Greentide and the more competitive Smite and Weridboy spam. I voted for 4th tier.

Orks need the treatment the nids have just had, a book whereby you pick a theme focus and some otherwise reasonably bland units can be made to come alive.

Where they are now is in a holding pattern, they need someone to write a book who at least knows the army is meant to be more than a target

Boyz, Weird Boyz and Storm Boyz are definitely our best units, but I think there are a few other units that aren't necessarily bad but probably suffer more from poor internal balance.

Warbosses, Nobz*, Kommandoz and the Banner Nob aren't bad, I think. While the Warboss isn't bad, the Weird Boy is just so good it is hard to justify choosing something else. The other units I mentioned aren't bad, but more Boyz are usually going to be better, especially since right now we only have the generic stratagems to spend command points on.
*Inexpensive Nobz specifically, as a lot of their wargear options are currently overpriced.

Tankbustas, Big Gunz and some Mek Gunz I don't have a good feel for yet. They seem okay on paper but haven't done much for me on the tabletop, but that's just anecdotal.

In terms of Forge World the Kill Tank, Meka Dread, Gargantuan Squiggoth and Big Trakk (especially with Supa Skorcha) all seem like they should be good.

leopard wrote:
They need someone to write a book who at least knows the army is meant to be more than a target

Truer words have never been spoken, however, I highly doubt such an author exists at GW. We'll have a good indicator shortly with the chapter approved changes, but I'm afraid I'm not holding my breath.

 Galas wrote:
Orks have two competitive lists. Greentide and the more competitive Smite and Weridboy spam. I voted for 4th tier.

Orks might be the highest placing mono-faction army in the game right now other than Astra Militarum.

I would really like it if they could tone down this allies nonsense. I get that in some cases it matches the fluff. But it's getting silly.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Orks have two competitive lists. Greentide and the more competitive Smite and Weridboy spam. I voted for 4th tier.

Orks might be the highest placing mono-faction army in the game right now other than Astra Militarum.

I would really like it if they could tone down this allies nonsense. I get that in some cases it matches the fluff. But it's getting silly.

Give them clan traits that make sense and they become allies with themselves which makes a lot of sense, also means say allowing Blood Axes to work with others (but making it a lot harder for the other clans) works nicely

Green Tide should work, but it needs to be just one of many options, when you see you are playing orks and you know the bulk of the list before you see it there is a problem.

They should be ohh so much more

leopard wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Orks have two competitive lists. Greentide and the more competitive Smite and Weridboy spam. I voted for 4th tier.

Orks might be the highest placing mono-faction army in the game right now other than Astra Militarum.

I would really like it if they could tone down this allies nonsense. I get that in some cases it matches the fluff. But it's getting silly.

Give them clan traits that make sense and they become allies with themselves which makes a lot of sense, also means say allowing Blood Axes to work with others (but making it a lot harder for the other clans) works nicely

Green Tide should work, but it needs to be just one of many options, when you see you are playing orks and you know the bulk of the list before you see it there is a problem.

They should be ohh so much more

When you play any competitive game you pretty much know what you're going to get based on the declared faction of your opponent. At least Orks have a viable build. Many armies simply don't - Necrons, Tyranids (pre-codex), Blood Angels, Space Wolves to name a few.

 Marmatag wrote:

leopard wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Orks have two competitive lists. Greentide and the more competitive Smite and Weridboy spam. I voted for 4th tier.

Orks might be the highest placing mono-faction army in the game right now other than Astra Militarum.

I would really like it if they could tone down this allies nonsense. I get that in some cases it matches the fluff. But it's getting silly.

Give them clan traits that make sense and they become allies with themselves which makes a lot of sense, also means say allowing Blood Axes to work with others (but making it a lot harder for the other clans) works nicely

Green Tide should work, but it needs to be just one of many options, when you see you are playing orks and you know the bulk of the list before you see it there is a problem.

They should be ohh so much more

When you play any competitive game you pretty much know what you're going to get based on the declared faction of your opponent. At least Orks have a viable build. Many armies simply don't - Necrons, Tyranids (pre-codex), Blood Angels, Space Wolves to name a few.

Very true, just have seen perhaps a few signs that GW do actually know how to write for something other than smurfs

Orks are garbage tier. Everything is too expensive, they get screwed over by the base rules compared to every other army, speicalist are too fragile, vehicles cost more than the unit they're transporting, a lot of different faction traits and special rules ignore ork's advantages, they're an army that expected to lean on assault when so much of the game rely on shooting to do anything, and the reason greentide is any good is the same reason greentide has always been good: because people have an allergic reaction to actually taking anti-horde weapons and just spam the living gak out of plasma to solve all their problems (and then get upset when that doesn't work)

Darsath wrote:


Orks are pretty bad this edition, mostly due to the rather terrible internal balance in their index. However, I do think Necrons compete with Tau for the worst faction in 8th at the moment. Their faction special rule is a downgrade to last edition, and many units are egregiously overcosted.

The biggest problem for Orks (aside from gross overpricing in the index) is 8th itself. Most of the changes in 8th hurt Orks or benefited others far more. A lot of people saw that initiative was being removed and jumped to saying Orks would be amazing now, and yeah, removing initiative was a big boost for Orks. But that was immediately counterbalanced by changes that hurt Orks badly.

- Retreat from close combat. Easily the change that hurts Orks the most. This one hits all close combat armies hard, but Orks especially so because we lack survivability and spike killing power. Elite close combat units can deal with this both by being survivable and by straight up murdering anything they touch. Orks tend to kill more by attrition and wearing units down. So having a unit just waltz away leaving our Boyz in rapid-fire range of half an army is a sure-fire recipe for disaster, and a big reason why you just see Boyz spam in 8th; you need to just keep throwing bodies into the fire just to keep even.

- Blast changes. Killed every blast weapon in the Ork codex. Previously these were some of our best weapons since they were much less affected by our abysmal BS. Now they're utterly worthless; a Shokk Attack Gun, on average, hits once per turn.

- Twin-linking: This didn't hurt Orks directly since Orks did get a slight increase in firepower from this change. But it benefited other armies immensely, who saw a huge increase in firepower. So now we had to face even more dakka coming our way, whilst at the same time we lost our main source of survivability...

- Cover. Cover both became much harder for Orks to get (whole unit must be on the terrain piece and Orks tend to run large squads to negate our low Leadership) and provided the least benefit, since +1 to an average armour save of 6+ means very little, doubly so when any weapon with an AP value can just strip it away.

When you ask ork players, many of them will declare that they are they are the worst, and that simply isnt true.

Orks as a faction have done pretty well for an index. Many people are just salty because the majority of the index is really bad (everything that isnt boyz variants or HQs). However they can compete and have been seen to do well with a few lists. If you just focus on thier competitive options you get very strong and resilient builds that can do well in the current meta.

That being said. It would be nice to have other options in the ork arsenal be more cost efficient aswell as have more options, rules and power.

 Dr.Duck wrote:
When you ask ork players, many of them will declare that they are they are the worst, and that simply isnt true.

Orks as a faction have done pretty well for an index. Many people are just salty because the majority of the index is really bad (everything that isnt boyz variants or HQs). However they can compete and have been seen to do well with a few lists. If you just focus on thier competitive options you get very strong and resilient builds that can do well in the current meta.

That being said. It would be nice to have other options in the ork arsenal be more cost efficient aswell as have more options, rules and power.

Their index IS bad.

The only reason they succeed is because they have a single decent unit, which allows them to build a skew list - countering the meta.

They win because of skew - which with the release of the Tyranid codex, and more horde/first turn assault armies become popular (genestealers much); the meta will shift to counter hordes, which means the orks have nothing.

They have literally no other way to play, if they want to remain even remotely in the game (not even competitively, casually as well).

fe40k wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:
When you ask ork players, many of them will declare that they are they are the worst, and that simply isnt true.

Orks as a faction have done pretty well for an index. Many people are just salty because the majority of the index is really bad (everything that isnt boyz variants or HQs). However they can compete and have been seen to do well with a few lists. If you just focus on thier competitive options you get very strong and resilient builds that can do well in the current meta.

That being said. It would be nice to have other options in the ork arsenal be more cost efficient aswell as have more options, rules and power.

Their index IS bad.

The only reason they succeed is because they have a single decent unit, which allows them to build a skew list - countering the meta.

They win because of skew - which with the release of the Tyranid codex, and more horde/first turn assault armies become popular (genestealers much); the meta will shift to counter hordes, which means the orks have nothing.

They have literally no other way to play, if they want to remain even remotely in the game (not even competitively, casually as well).

Like 50 percent of the meta are skew lists. In the competitive scene everyone is spaming thier best units.Pretty sure there arent any wining marine lists without Bobby or raven guard. Or Guard with out conscripts. Or Chaos without primarchs, zerkers, brimstones, or MLords.

Orks are doing worst than any of the codexes but have been doing better than most of the other indexes. They are easily Tier 3. Every index has bad units, every index has decent units, and every index has a few amazing units. Codexes have raised the power level of every index so far.

They're good orks, mortis

leopard wrote:
Give them clan traits that make sense and they become allies with themselves which makes a lot of sense, also means say allowing Blood Axes to work with others (but making it a lot harder for the other clans) works nicely

Green Tide should work, but it needs to be just one of many options, when you see you are playing orks and you know the bulk of the list before you see it there is a problem.

They should be ohh so much more

And space marines can ally with themselves thanks to chapter traits. But can still soup it up with others that give them access to stuff they don't have naturally.

As long as alliances exists soup will trump monobuilds unless mono faction becomes varied enough they have naturally every option soup has! See orks having equally wide toolbox naturally as imperium soup?

This is tough because the one good build Orks have

(Green tide & wierdboys)

It's quite good, but it's all they have.

Apart from boyz, almost every unit in the index is wasting points for more boyz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dr.Duck wrote:
When you ask ork players, many of them will declare that they are they are the worst, and that simply isnt true.

Orks as a faction have done pretty well for an index. Many people are just salty because the majority of the index is really bad (everything that isnt boyz variants or HQs). However they can compete and have been seen to do well with a few lists. If you just focus on thier competitive options you get very strong and resilient builds that can do well in the current meta.

That being said. It would be nice to have other options in the ork arsenal be more cost efficient aswell as have more options, rules and power.

It's not salty if almost all of your models are overpriced bricks that don't add anything to your army. It's not fun to use the same list over and over again while all these expensive models sit on your shelf.

Currently they are bottom tiers, like all the other factions that haven't got a codex yet, with the exception of ynnari which were good since day 1 of 8th edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Glane wrote:


The biggest problem for Orks (aside from gross overpricing in the index) is 8th itself. Most of the changes in 8th hurt Orks or benefited others far more.

I agree, 8th edition basically killed more than 80% of the orks units.

Anything that either needs to pay points for wargear or is a shooting unit doesn't work well.

Still, you can't deny that you can built a pretty decent army out of the six to seven units that do work. Too bad it's boring as feth to play.

I don't think all the -1 to hit garbage floating round has helped Orcs a lot. I think if they had a rule that made them ignore it (especially with shooting) they would improve vastly. Its not like their shooting is fantastic anyway, but their more specialised units that carry the fancy guns wouldn't be a complete waste of points to field.

 Nubgan wrote:
I don't think all the -1 to hit garbage floating round has helped Orcs a lot. I think if they had a rule that made them ignore it (especially with shooting) they would improve vastly. Its not like their shooting is fantastic anyway, but their more specialised units that carry the fancy guns wouldn't be a complete waste of points to field.

Actually, I have been thinking about this a lot. A stratagem for -1 cp that lets you ignore all modifiers to shooting for one unit would probably do the trick. It takes a lot of power from your opponent when they have always consider that their wraithfigher or advancing transport might get shot by a unit of lootaz or tankbustaz unhindered.

 Dr.Duck wrote:

fe40k wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:
When you ask ork players, many of them will declare that they are they are the worst, and that simply isnt true.

Orks as a faction have done pretty well for an index. Many people are just salty because the majority of the index is really bad (everything that isnt boyz variants or HQs). However they can compete and have been seen to do well with a few lists. If you just focus on thier competitive options you get very strong and resilient builds that can do well in the current meta.

That being said. It would be nice to have other options in the ork arsenal be more cost efficient aswell as have more options, rules and power.

Their index IS bad.

The only reason they succeed is because they have a single decent unit, which allows them to build a skew list - countering the meta.

They win because of skew - which with the release of the Tyranid codex, and more horde/first turn assault armies become popular (genestealers much); the meta will shift to counter hordes, which means the orks have nothing.

They have literally no other way to play, if they want to remain even remotely in the game (not even competitively, casually as well).

Like 50 percent of the meta are skew lists. In the competitive scene everyone is spaming thier best units.Pretty sure there arent any wining marine lists without Bobby or raven guard. Or Guard with out conscripts. Or Chaos without primarchs, zerkers, brimstones, or MLords.

Orks are doing worst than any of the codexes but have been doing better than most of the other indexes. They are easily Tier 3. Every index has bad units, every index has decent units, and every index has a few amazing units. Codexes have raised the power level of every index so far.

Bringing one Bobby G is considered spamming? Most lists take 1-2 ravens and 2-3 asscans. Then either some tacs or different versions of the new primaris marines. Not very spammy for SMS.

Orkz on the other hand have 3 viable lists that are basically the same damn thing. Boyz with weirdboyz, stormboyz with weirdboyz and Kommandos with weirdboyz. Now they might vary a tiny bit. Some will take a couple big guns to hold backfield objective and because we don't have any more time/room for more boyz models. Some will take a painboy or a big Mek with a KFF. But that is about it. The rest of the index is unplayable in a competitive meta.

 Nubgan wrote:
I don't think all the -1 to hit garbage floating round has helped Orcs a lot. I think if they had a rule that made them ignore it (especially with shooting) they would improve vastly. Its not like their shooting is fantastic anyway, but their more specialised units that carry the fancy guns wouldn't be a complete waste of points to field.

Negative modifiers to hit helps orks a lot. People that stack negative hit modifiers against shooting absolutely hate it when you bring an assault army. The only exception is airborne fliers.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Nubgan wrote:
I don't think all the -1 to hit garbage floating round has helped Orcs a lot. I think if they had a rule that made them ignore it (especially with shooting) they would improve vastly. Its not like their shooting is fantastic anyway, but their more specialised units that carry the fancy guns wouldn't be a complete waste of points to field.

Actually, I have been thinking about this a lot. A stratagem for -1 cp that lets you ignore all modifiers to shooting for one unit would probably do the trick. It takes a lot of power from your opponent when they have always consider that their wraithfigher or advancing transport might get shot by a unit of lootaz or tankbustaz unhindered.

Its not really unhindered, its an Ork shooting remember, that's hindrance enough without modifiers XD

Until all the codex's are out this is a comparison of apples and oranges

 Nubgan wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Nubgan wrote:
I don't think all the -1 to hit garbage floating round has helped Orcs a lot. I think if they had a rule that made them ignore it (especially with shooting) they would improve vastly. Its not like their shooting is fantastic anyway, but their more specialised units that carry the fancy guns wouldn't be a complete waste of points to field.

Actually, I have been thinking about this a lot. A stratagem for -1 cp that lets you ignore all modifiers to shooting for one unit would probably do the trick. It takes a lot of power from your opponent when they have always consider that their wraithfigher or advancing transport might get shot by a unit of lootaz or tankbustaz unhindered.

Its not really unhindered, its an Ork shooting remember, that's hindrance enough without modifiers XD

You obviously have never been on the receiving end of a mob of 15 lootaz rolling a 3 for shots.

 Glane wrote:


The biggest problem for Orks (aside from gross overpricing in the index) is 8th itself. Most of the changes in 8th hurt Orks or benefited others far more. A lot of people saw that initiative was being removed and jumped to saying Orks would be amazing now, and yeah, removing initiative was a big boost for Orks. But that was immediately counterbalanced by changes that hurt Orks badly.

- Retreat from close combat. Easily the change that hurts Orks the most. This one hits all close combat armies hard, but Orks especially so because we lack survivability and spike killing power. Elite close combat units can deal with this both by being survivable and by straight up murdering anything they touch. Orks tend to kill more by attrition and wearing units down. So having a unit just waltz away leaving our Boyz in rapid-fire range of half an army is a sure-fire recipe for disaster, and a big reason why you just see Boyz spam in 8th; you need to just keep throwing bodies into the fire just to keep even.

- Blast changes. Killed every blast weapon in the Ork codex. Previously these were some of our best weapons since they were much less affected by our abysmal BS. Now they're utterly worthless; a Shokk Attack Gun, on average, hits once per turn.

- Twin-linking: This didn't hurt Orks directly since Orks did get a slight increase in firepower from this change. But it benefited other armies immensely, who saw a huge increase in firepower. So now we had to face even more dakka coming our way, whilst at the same time we lost our main source of survivability...

- Cover. Cover both became much harder for Orks to get (whole unit must be on the terrain piece and Orks tend to run large squads to negate our low Leadership) and provided the least benefit, since +1 to an average armour save of 6+ means very little, doubly so when any weapon with an AP value can just strip it away.

I could not agree more. It's because of these reasons that I'm holding very little hope for the ork codex - the base rules are intrinsically disadvantageous to orks, and that can't easily, or fairly, be fixed by any one codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, bless you whoever ranked orks #1. You're a true believer.

I mean, you're insane, but you're a saint for believing.

So basically this is a complaint thread.

Orks are far from bottom tier.

With their codex you might see them on tier1 or 2. Right now they're comfortably in tier 3.

 Marmatag wrote:
So basically this is a complaint thread.

Orks are far from bottom tier.

With their codex you might see them on tier1 or 2. Right now they're comfortably in tier 3.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. Every ork player I know has shelved them until a codex drops because they're unplayable. Unless you've got 200 ork models in your list, you're not going to do very well.

 deviantduck wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
So basically this is a complaint thread.

Orks are far from bottom tier.

With their codex you might see them on tier1 or 2. Right now they're comfortably in tier 3.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. Every ork player I know has shelved them until a codex drops because they're unplayable. Unless you've got 200 ork models in your list, you're not going to do very well.

Not sure if your being sarcastic or not. they're not unplayable.

I think your tiers are far too small in a game with so many factions and soups.

The Ork index has many garbage units. Internal balance is rubbish. It does however have a list which is performing well in many tournaments. Not amazingly - not enough to win - but consistently better than say Necrons.

 deviantduck wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
So basically this is a complaint thread.

Orks are far from bottom tier.

With their codex you might see them on tier1 or 2. Right now they're comfortably in tier 3.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. Every ork player I know has shelved them until a codex drops because they're unplayable. Unless you've got 200 ork models in your list, you're not going to do very well.

To be fair Green Tide has been one of standard ways to play Orks for a long time. It hasn't been a good way to play in every edition but it has been an established a fluffy build since forever.

I don't want Orks to be monobuild. I want Speed Freaks and Kan Wall/Dread Mob to be good along with Green Tide (as well as somewhat less common builds like Battlewagon Blitz). To keep things in perspective, though, I'd guess that most long-time Ork players have lots of Boyz lying around already and Green Tide is a fluffy way to play, unlike current Tau commander spam or Tyranid flyrant spam from 7th.

 warhead01 wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
So basically this is a complaint thread.

Orks are far from bottom tier.

With their codex you might see them on tier1 or 2. Right now they're comfortably in tier 3.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. Every ork player I know has shelved them until a codex drops because they're unplayable. Unless you've got 200 ork models in your list, you're not going to do very well.

Not sure if your being sarcastic or not. they're not unplayable.

You have boyz, stormboyz, Kommandos, weirdboy as your good units, not OP by very good. Then you have your meh units like warboss(whose sole purpose is to buff boyz, Ghaz whose sole purpose is to buff boyz, big mek whose sole purpose is to buff boyz, painboy whose sole purpose is to buff boyz and banner Nob whose sole purpose is to buff boyz. They are decent units, possible to use in a competitive environment and not be starting at a disadvantage. Then you have Mek guns, big gunz, grotz and tankbustas who are ok to play with but you would be better off taking more boyz instead. Then you have everything else in the codex which ranges from fluffy and fun but uncompetitive to utter rubbish.

Dakkajet, burna bommer, blitz bommer, waszbom, deft kopta, burnas, flash gitz, mega nobz, nobz, bike nobz, warbikerz,buggies, trakkz, trukkz, skorchas, Battlewagon, killakanz, deff dreadz, morkanaut, gorkanaut, stompa, lootas and our plethora of special characters. So yeah, most of the index is unplayable in a competitive environment, at least if your intent is to win.

Bottom tier, definitely. They have the one list that might work kinda if you get lucky, and that's about it. And even that build, most of the time top tier armies-- asscannon razorback spam, for example-- will tear it to shreds with ease.

 Melissia wrote:
Bottom tier, definitely. They have the one list that might work kinda if you get lucky, and that's about it. And even that build, most of the time top tier armies-- asscannon razorback spam, for example-- will tear it to shreds with ease.

This is patently false, asscannon razorback spam is (1) not a top build anymore, and (2) Orks did better than this build at the SoCal open for a reason. There are far more lethal shooting armies than Space Marines. Space marines are not the worst matchup for Orks. Just another day, another dakka person hating on Space Marines for seriously no reason.

SemperMortis wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
So basically this is a complaint thread.

Orks are far from bottom tier.

With their codex you might see them on tier1 or 2. Right now they're comfortably in tier 3.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. Every ork player I know has shelved them until a codex drops because they're unplayable. Unless you've got 200 ork models in your list, you're not going to do very well.

Not sure if your being sarcastic or not. they're not unplayable.

You have boyz, stormboyz, Kommandos, weirdboy as your good units, not OP by very good. Then you have your meh units like warboss(whose sole purpose is to buff boyz, Ghaz whose sole purpose is to buff boyz, big mek whose sole purpose is to buff boyz, painboy whose sole purpose is to buff boyz and banner Nob whose sole purpose is to buff boyz. They are decent units, possible to use in a competitive environment and not be starting at a disadvantage. Then you have Mek guns, big gunz, grotz and tankbustas who are ok to play with but you would be better off taking more boyz instead. Then you have everything else in the codex which ranges from fluffy and fun but uncompetitive to utter rubbish.

Dakkajet, burna bommer, blitz bommer, waszbom, deft kopta, burnas, flash gitz, mega nobz, nobz, bike nobz, warbikerz,buggies, trakkz, trukkz, skorchas, Battlewagon, killakanz, deff dreadz, morkanaut, gorkanaut, stompa, lootas and our plethora of special characters. So yeah, most of the index is unplayable in a competitive environment, at least if your intent is to win.

To be fair though every codex has few units competive armies spam and rest are basically ignored. Nothing surprising there. Orks are doing fairly well on tournaments. Not winning but frankly non-soup armies are always going to struggle on that area. But hardly unplayable.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Bottom tier, definitely. They have the one list that might work kinda if you get lucky, and that's about it. And even that build, most of the time top tier armies-- asscannon razorback spam, for example-- will tear it to shreds with ease.

This is patently false, asscannon razorback spam is (1) not a top build anymore, and (2) Orks did better than this build at the SoCal open for a reason. There are far more lethal shooting armies than Space Marines. Space marines are not the worst matchup for Orks. Just another day, another dakka person hating on Space Marines for seriously no reason.

1. Melissia saying that Space Marines being better than Orks is hating on Space Marines?
2. The poll seems to prove your opinion patently wrong. 7 armies better than Orks right now: IG, SM, CSM, Eldar, SoB, Nids, DG. This would relegate them to the last poll choice, aka Bottom Tier.

 deviantduck wrote:
The poll seems to prove your opinion patently wrong. 7 armies better than Orks right now: IG, SM, CSM, Eldar, SoB, Nids, DG. This would relegate them to the last poll choice, aka Bottom Tier.

In tournaments, this is not the order.

We don't have Tyranid data, but pre-codex they were far worse than Orks. It stands to reason they're better now with a codex. Guillimarines finished behind Orks in the last major GT. So...

And suggesting that asscannon razorback spam is a "top tier" army is ridiculous, and she's doing it for a very specific reason. Meta armies do not fear asscannon razorback spam. Not anymore.

The Ork greentide list is pretty strong, so it is not in any way "unplayable" if by that is meant "not able to win". A fine tuned Ork list with 210 boyz will do well against most opponents, provided you don't play the "Eternal War" missions.

But for many Ork players the Green tide is unplayable, simply because you need a 200+ model army, and you need to move every model up to six times per battle round (move, charge, 2x pile-in 2x consolidate). And this is absolutely necessary in order to play it well, and it kind of precludes you from using movement trays.

The upside is, that tournaments has universally been adopting progressive scoring, in part because games never reach turn 4 in 2 hour slot.

I enjoy playing Green Tide and I have the models to do it, but I'd never play it in a tournament setting simply because I can't move models and roll dice fast enough to be fair to my opponent.

I'm working on a 3x Kill Tank list now, but I think that Chapter Approved and the codex will probably change things enough that it's not worth getting hung up on a specific list yet.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
I enjoy playing Green Tide and I have the models to do it, but I'd never play it in a tournament setting simply because I can't move models and roll dice fast enough to be fair to my opponent.

I'm working on a 3x Kill Tank list now, but I think that Chapter Approved and the codex will probably change things enough that it's not worth getting hung up on a specific list yet.

I agree, Orks will be fine. Praise be Gork and Mork that we are not Tau.

Your poll options is quite biased, so 75% of all armies is in garbage tier? GW lists around 30 army factions on their site..

Haha, garbage teir = an effective codex army that outperforms most other single faction lists. Okay buddy.

Poor internal balance does not equate to poor tournament performance. Semper, your response options are biased and this thread is a joke. You yourself have said in previous threads that you win every tournament you attend with your kommando Ork army.

edit: here I'll help you make an unbiased teir list.
There's what, approximately 18 factions that i just copy pasted from wiki:

Chaos Space Marines
Chaos Daemons
Dark Eldar
Craftworld Eldar
Eldar Harlequins
Necrons
Orks
Tau Empire
Tyranids
Genestealer Cults
Space Marines
Astra Militarum
Militarum Tempestus
Inquisition
Adepta Sororitas
Imperial Knights
Skitarii
Cult Mechanicus

this does not include many of the subfactions, which there are extra, so lets add a modest 5 total (that wouldn't even cover space marines), and maybe an imperial soup and chaos soup list.

God Tier: Top 3
High Tier: 4-7
Medium Tier: 8-11
Low Tier: 12-15
Garbage: 16+

There are a hell of a lot of potential lists out there that you don't even think about because they are so goddamned bad. In the tournament scene you look at the top 8 and think that is the entire field, but it's not, there are heaps of catastrophic armies out there doing very poorly. So many imperial lists are forced to resort to other codexes and make soup lists because they CAN NOT make a tournament performing army. Orkz however, consistently produce results, and they do it on their own without a codex. Sure they are not god/high teir, but they do well.

 deviantduck wrote:
1. Melissia saying that Space Marines being better than Orks is hating on Space Marines?

Yeah, I don't get it either, at this point I'm resigned to the fact that no matter what I do, I hate marines. Which must be why I collect, paint, and play them.

Basically someone saying that is just evidence they don't have a point and probably never will.

Just to re-iterate my previous point, here is a nice breakdown of a recent tournament. Sorting army types by battlepoint averages.

http://fieldoffiregaming.com/best-armies-warzone-atlanta/

You'll find that Orkz, as I suggested earlier, fit cleanly in middle teir, just below the average. There just happen to be 22 unique army categories as organised by this article author, so I was off a little when it comes to pure tournament representation (by 3).

 Marmatag wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
The poll seems to prove your opinion patently wrong. 7 armies better than Orks right now: IG, SM, CSM, Eldar, SoB, Nids, DG. This would relegate them to the last poll choice, aka Bottom Tier.

In tournaments, this is not the order.

We don't have Tyranid data, but pre-codex they were far worse than Orks. It stands to reason they're better now with a codex. Guillimarines finished behind Orks in the last major GT. So...

And suggesting that asscannon razorback spam is a "top tier" army is ridiculous, and she's doing it for a very specific reason. Meta armies do not fear asscannon razorback spam. Not anymore.

If you're referring warzone atlanta, then, thanks to VarianceHammer's diligence, we can see Chaos Demons, Chaos, Eldar, Space Marines, SoB, IG, and Yanarri all consistently did better as a faction, even though an Ork player may have taken 2nd place.

 deviantduck wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
The poll seems to prove your opinion patently wrong. 7 armies better than Orks right now: IG, SM, CSM, Eldar, SoB, Nids, DG. This would relegate them to the last poll choice, aka Bottom Tier.

In tournaments, this is not the order.

We don't have Tyranid data, but pre-codex they were far worse than Orks. It stands to reason they're better now with a codex. Guillimarines finished behind Orks in the last major GT. So...

And suggesting that asscannon razorback spam is a "top tier" army is ridiculous, and she's doing it for a very specific reason. Meta armies do not fear asscannon razorback spam. Not anymore.

If you're referring warzone atlanta, then, thanks to VarianceHammer's diligence, we can see Chaos Demons, Chaos, Eldar, Space Marines, SoB, IG, and Yanarri all consistently did better as a faction, even though an Ork player may have taken 2nd place.

Yeah but that's not a good representation, because you get such a mixed bag at every event. Blood Angels scored a high average because the one (or two? whatever) guy who brought them did well.

Fact of the matter is, the power curve in 8th has been flatted in a lot of respects. The fact that Orks have a build capable of finishing in the top 3 in a tournament immediately makes them better than a LOT of factions, period, end of story. And it's not an outlier data point for Orks, whereas it IS for Blood Angels. In the current meta, Orks have been doing consistently well in big events. This is the second major even in a row (that i'm aware of at least) wherein Orks finished ahead of Ultramarines, considered the "best" space marine faction. Not saying Space Marines are the yardstick for balance - they're not - they're too weak, Orks *should* be better than them - but to say Orks are anything less than tier 3 just isn't true. And they're doing this without a codex.

You cannot put Orks even remotely close to Necrons, for example. Necrons simply do not have a build capable of reaching this high. To date, neither have Tyranids.

It really is wholly unfair to say that Orks are this totally inferior army. They're an index army, so naturally somewhat underpowered, that is still flatly better in the current meta than a lot of armies. And, over time, it's looking like they're better than Codex Space Marines. That shouldn't matter since SM are garbage, but most people believe they're the darlings of GW, so it should appease you even if it doesn't help the Ork faction.

I'm only arguing the rankings for the poll in this thread. Orks are not a top 7 team, therefore bottom tier according to this thread.

 deviantduck wrote:
I'm only arguing the rankings for the poll in this thread. Orks are not a top 7 team, therefore bottom tier according to this thread.

But they're doing better than armies that you listed, and i suppose you're also not allowing for ties.

While there are 18 factions, a fair amount of them are sub factions that weren't originally intended to be played independently of another host army. Inquisition, Knights, Tempestus, GSC, cult/skit and harlequins were originally meant to add flavor to other factions. Some didn't even have legal standalone lists for a long time.

So let's put that down right away. Secondly, generally speaking Orkz aren't finishing top in major tournaments. So far we have 1 example of an Ork list doing well in a major tournament. The last time I checked, the highest Ranked ITC Ork player was at something like 103rd place.

Next, we have 1 build that is competitive. I haven't had a chance to look over the Atlanta Ork list yet but it apparently featured another Squiggoth, so add that to the list of good units.

 Marmatag wrote:
. Meta armies do not fear asscannon razorback spam. Not anymore.

I'm not sure about meta armies, but orks damn sure still fear that, since our best unit are boyz and assbacks are basically built to eliminate boyz. last game I played against marines I lost 50 boyz to basically 2 assbacks and 1 storm raven, who had KFF and painboy saves to boot. And that's hardly a spam list.

A true assback spam is basically unbeatable to me, unless I just get stupid lucky with da jump assaults.

And I'm not much for tournaments or competitive play, but all I know is that I've seen and experienced. And I have no idea how to deal with assault cannon + lascannon spam. Assault cannons annihilate my infantry, and lascannons evaporate anything more valuable than a boy, assuming I'm stupid enough to actually bring anything that fits that description.

SemperMortis wrote:
While there are 18 factions, a fair amount of them are sub factions that weren't originally intended to be played independently of another host army. Inquisition, Knights, Tempestus, GSC, cult/skit and harlequins were originally meant to add flavor to other factions. Some didn't even have legal standalone lists for a long time.

So let's put that down right away. Secondly, generally speaking Orkz aren't finishing top in major tournaments. So far we have 1 example of an Ork list doing well in a major tournament. The last time I checked, the highest Ranked ITC Ork player was at something like 103rd place.

Next, we have 1 build that is competitive. I haven't had a chance to look over the Atlanta Ork list yet but it apparently featured another Squiggoth, so add that to the list of good units.

They also did well in the SoCal open. Better than Ultramarines and razorback spam. And there are other instances as well throughout 8th.

If you think you have trouble with assback spam, you must have never played meta Astra Militarum. Because Taurox Prime & artillery + plasma will ruin your day a 1000 times worse.

To be clear: i'm not saying Orks don't need a buff. But there are factions that need it way more than Orks.

Orks came in second place at warzone Atlanta. Over 100 players. His list did have a FW squigith though. The core of his army is what I would expect though - commandos - KMC - and slugga boys with a lot of psychics.

I was a bit surprised by that warzone Atlanta list, honestly. Had only 60 boyz.

The garg squiggoth isn't surprising, though, that thing is seriously undercosted. It's basically as tough as a stompa for less than half the points, plus it's open-topped, so it's arguably more shooty than a stompa to boot.

Still dies in like 2 turns to a handful of lascannons though. Least it has in my experience.

I aught to try more wierdboyz, I suppose. Though you can't buy them pretty much anywhere.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

The garg squiggoth isn't surprising, though, that thing is seriously undercosted. It's basically as tough as a stompa for less than half the points, plus it's open-topped, so it's arguably more shooty than a stompa to boot.

Aren't people also pulling some sort of shenanigans with the gargantuan squiggoth? I thought I read about some exploit involving it's huge size and lack of base. I might be remembering that wrong though.

SemperMortis wrote:
While there are 18 factions, a fair amount of them are sub factions that weren't originally intended to be played independently of another host army. Inquisition, Knights, Tempestus, GSC, cult/skit and harlequins were originally meant to add flavor to other factions. Some didn't even have legal standalone lists for a long time.

So let's put that down right away. Secondly, generally speaking Orkz aren't finishing top in major tournaments. So far we have 1 example of an Ork list doing well in a major tournament. The last time I checked, the highest Ranked ITC Ork player was at something like 103rd place.

Next, we have 1 build that is competitive. I haven't had a chance to look over the Atlanta Ork list yet but it apparently featured another Squiggoth, so add that to the list of good units.

In SoCal, NOVA, and Atlanta there were 22 to 26 different types of army categories represented according to their way of categorising. "So let's put that down right away" is ridiculous, there is a much higher representation than 8 armies in the tournament scene right now. You are trying to say everything in the game is garbage except the top 7 armies.

Secondly, Orkz ARE performing, just not as well as you would hope I imagine? We don't have a codex, but there are regular major events where Orkz are getting top 10.

And finally, its quite clear that there is not just one build that is competitive. 200+ boyz lists are not performing right now, which is what everyone in this forum thinks is the current best list. The last two successful lists had a variety of different boyz/stormboyz/kommandos, smite spam, mek gun linez, and forgeworld vehicles.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I was a bit surprised by that warzone Atlanta list, honestly. Had only 60 boyz.

The garg squiggoth isn't surprising, though, that thing is seriously undercosted. It's basically as tough as a stompa for less than half the points, plus it's open-topped, so it's arguably more shooty than a stompa to boot.

Still dies in like 2 turns to a handful of lascannons though. Least it has in my experience.

I aught to try more wierdboyz, I suppose. Though you can't buy them pretty much anywhere.

Here's the deal - in 8th edition, if someone wants to kill something, they can do it. Unless it's a character protected by a ton of chaff, if your opponent really wants something dead, they can make it happen. If it lives through 2 turns of lascannon shooting, that's *really good*, and you should consider yourself lucky. More expensive things die in 1 turn to focused anti-tank, from any faction. Even Dark Eldar could shoot this off the table with their lances.

I don't think is a problem, in a game that last normally 3-4 turns, for a 300-600pointt heavy tank or equivalent to die in 2 turns of anti-tank heavy fire.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

The garg squiggoth isn't surprising, though, that thing is seriously undercosted. It's basically as tough as a stompa for less than half the points, plus it's open-topped, so it's arguably more shooty than a stompa to boot.

Aren't people also pulling some sort of shenanigans with the gargantuan squiggoth? I thought I read about some exploit involving it's huge size and lack of base. I might be remembering that wrong though.

It is super big, so it is quite easy to charge into a lot of units, each of which gets D6 mortal wounds. Another fun thing is to charge a drop-pod or fortification. They cannot fall back, and meanwhile the occupants in the howder can shoot without being shot at.

hollow one wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
While there are 18 factions, a fair amount of them are sub factions that weren't originally intended to be played independently of another host army. Inquisition, Knights, Tempestus, GSC, cult/skit and harlequins were originally meant to add flavor to other factions. Some didn't even have legal standalone lists for a long time.

So let's put that down right away. Secondly, generally speaking Orkz aren't finishing top in major tournaments. So far we have 1 example of an Ork list doing well in a major tournament. The last time I checked, the highest Ranked ITC Ork player was at something like 103rd place.

Next, we have 1 build that is competitive. I haven't had a chance to look over the Atlanta Ork list yet but it apparently featured another Squiggoth, so add that to the list of good units.

In SoCal, NOVA, and Atlanta there were 22 to 26 different types of army categories represented according to their way of categorising. "So let's put that down right away" is ridiculous, there is a much higher representation than 8 armies in the tournament scene right now. You are trying to say everything in the game is garbage except the top 7 armies.

Secondly, Orkz ARE performing, just not as well as you would hope I imagine? We don't have a codex, but there are regular major events where Orkz are getting top 10.

And finally, its quite clear that there is not just one build that is competitive. 200+ boyz lists are not performing right now, which is what everyone in this forum thinks is the current best list. The last two successful lists had a variety of different boyz/stormboyz/kommandos, smite spam, mek gun linez, and forgeworld vehicles.

Atlanta was boyz, weirdboyz and Kommandos making up the bulk of the list. Then you had the extra stuff like the Squiggoth and the Mek guns. Literally what I said was either competitive or almost there. There is still only one main type of list it's just modified slightly. 60boyz and 20 Kommandos. The reason that the 200+ boyz list isn't working anymore is because the META adapted to dealing with hordes and conscript spam. Again, where did the Orks do well in other tournaments, I'll gladly look over the lists when I get a chance but last time I checked the highest ranked Ork player wasn't even in the top 100

Hmmmmmmmm, the Atlanta list had 340 points of boyz, 200 points of kommandos, three weirdboyz (180). 1/3 of his list is not the "bulk". Certainly its an important part, as every army leans on efficient units, but damn man big trakks, a warbanner, KMKs, and a giant squiggoth is a unique take on the HQ supplement of the traditional core (which would normally consist of Ghaz and weirdboy spam, as you well know). I'm getting tired shooting down the same arguments, scroll through the tactics thread when I dismantled your "only one list" point with multiple well performing Ork army links and tournament evidence. It obviously bothers me that this is just a complaint thread, but please at least pretend you are trying to be accurate? Playing a middle of the road codex army that has a variety of units performing is allowed. that is OKAY. It doesn't have to be coming first all the time for it to be good enough.

Not every army gets to win.

"Not every army gets to win."

Yep, that's orks, the eternal NPC race

hollow one wrote:
Hmmmmmmmm, the Atlanta list had 340 points of boyz, 200 points of kommandos, three weirdboyz (180). 1/3 of his list is not the "bulk". Certainly its an important part, as every army leans on efficient units, but damn man big trakks, a warbanner, KMKs, and a giant squiggoth is a unique take on the HQ supplement of the traditional core (which would normally consist of Ghaz and weirdboy spam, as you well know). I'm getting tired shooting down the same arguments, scroll through the tactics thread when I dismantled your "only one list" point with multiple well performing Ork army links and tournament evidence. It obviously bothers me that this is just a complaint thread, but please at least pretend you are trying to be accurate? Playing a middle of the road codex army that has a variety of units performing is allowed. that is OKAY. It doesn't have to be coming first all the time for it to be good enough.

Not every army gets to win.

348pts of boyz, 216pts of Kommandos, 4 Weirdboyz (not 3) 248pts. That adds up to over 800pts in a 2,000pt list. So the "Bulk" would be accurate for a statement. Add to that my earlier admission that since its success this edition, the gargantuan squiggoth (FW) is a competitive choice, that puts it closer to 1250pts. The rest of the list is 3 Characters, about 200pts of KMKs, and 2 Supa Skorchas.

So what you have is 800pts of Boyz, Kommandos and weirdboyz. 750pts of Forgeworld some Mek Gunz and characters. I think my statement stands accurate. Also, I can't confirm this yet because I haven't seen it personally, but apparently at least two of his match ups were against Fluffy Chaos Armies. But even if it wasn't, this list is kustomized to deal with Elite Primarch Armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And to add to it even further. 8% think Orkz are top 3 armies, 30% Think its top 5 armies. 28% think its between 5-7 (My fault I should have made that 6-8th) and a whopping 42% think its a garbage army with 1 Competitive build with slight variations.

I'd like to meet that 8% and shake their hands

tneva82 wrote:

leopard wrote:
Give them clan traits that make sense and they become allies with themselves which makes a lot of sense, also means say allowing Blood Axes to work with others (but making it a lot harder for the other clans) works nicely

Green Tide should work, but it needs to be just one of many options, when you see you are playing orks and you know the bulk of the list before you see it there is a problem.

They should be ohh so much more

And space marines can ally with themselves thanks to chapter traits. But can still soup it up with others that give them access to stuff they don't have naturally.

As long as alliances exists soup will trump monobuilds unless mono faction becomes varied enough they have naturally every option soup has! See orks having equally wide toolbox naturally as imperium soup?

I agree that Orks and other mono-factions don't have as wide of a toolbox as Imperium and Chaos as things are now. If they gave Orks back units they've cut over the years, and made rules for Ork units that existed in other games but not standard 40k, and maybe threw some things that appear in the fluff but have never had models AFAIK then the Orks could have as big of a toolbox as Imperial and Chaos players. It's a good thing I'm not in charge of the Ork codex, as there would be so many different units and stratagems that the codex would be bigger than the BRB.

I think that GW could make soup-ish armies for most factions, and they've taken some steps that seem to be moving in that direction. I might not be understanding the rules right, but Eldar soup is a possibility now, right? I imagine as the non-Craftworld Eldar get their books we might see more Eldar soup. Tyranids are moving in that direction with GSC and the ability to bring in IG. I could see them down the road making Genestealer upgrade kits for other factions so that 'Nids can pull in even more. Tau have a mulit-species empire. If they fleshed out the Kroot and Vespid a little more, brought back the Gue'vesa and maybe threw in some Demiurg then Tau would have their own soup. I'm not sure about Necrons, as I don't know that much about them.

I recognize that sculpting new models and creating enw molds takes time and money, so I'm not saying all this could be easily done right away. I just think that is probably the way GW is headed and it could help fix the problem of some factions having way more options than others through allies.

I am very excited for the Ork codex, but I must admit I'm also terrified. I'm optimistic that they'll give us good rules for what we have. What I'm scared of is them being strict with us about getting rid of units that have no model and reducing options for units to what is in the box as currently sold. A huge amount of our units rely on kitbashing and conversions.It could be pretty devastating for us, more in terms of fun and variety than gameplay probably.

On the flip side, if GW recognized the Orks as being the modeler's army that it is then many of the units I mentioned being cut or never having rules could easily be made by us through kitbashing and very minor conversion work. I don't expect GW to actually do this, but it's a nice dream.

I also highly anticipated and fear the coming of the codex. We're going to lose access for a lot of HQs unless new kits get released, which seems unlikely considering the poor support for the faction in my few years of playing. I think it's unlikely they'll make any concessions to Orks because of their historical place as a kitbashers playground.

Every game I’ve seen with Orks ends the same... they get shot down to the last boy. They will get some good charges then then get shot up some more.

Locally, none of the players who have Orks even bring them to the table any more, they're all waiting hopefully for the codex to give them some buffs so they can stand up to guard, eldar, and various flavors of marines (especially ultras, ravens, sallies, and chaos).

I'd rate them very highly based solely on cheap ability to take tons of bodies with a crap ton of attacks. Cheap bodies is a very good way (if boring) to beat people.

As far as how good they are, I'm repeating what pretty much everyone else has said- there's one good list but it's not fun to play, and in every other way they are terrible.

What I will say is that they're definitely less fun to play this edition. At least in 7th I could go with different options. Battlewagon rushes, trukk spam, manz missiles, etc. But in this edition battlewagons are a massive waste of points, trukkboyz are awful, meganobz are too expensive for manz missles (not to mention how meganobz barely kill anything nowadays) and ork shooting in general is abysmal. We desperately need our codex to give us our options back. I'm tired of having to bring 90 boyz to casual games just to have some chance of not getting stomped.

 Elbows wrote:
I'd rate them very highly based solely on cheap ability to take tons of bodies with a crap ton of attacks. Cheap bodies is a very good way (if boring) to beat people.

. Wouldn't that make nids, Chaos, IG and a few others even better then? I mean you can take 2 conscripts for the price of one boy. And he gets a tamed weapon and a plethora of rules to really buff it. Or what about nids who can take units of 30 for cheaper then boyz and whose movement is almost double? Throw in a venomthrope and now they are harder to hit as well.

It seems like Hormagaunts and Genestealers, while good, get butchered by Slugga Boyz in close combat. That's been my experience playing against Hormagaunts, and that's what I've seen happen in battle reports where Boyz go up against Genestealers. The Tyranids have a significant speed advantage over the Boyz, but that speed just serves to get them into melee faster where the Boyz squish them. (I'm guessing that a good player would be better able to use the speed to try to ensure the bugs get to charge and therefore strike first, and maybe ignore the boyz in favor of going for objectives.)

I've seen Tyranids beat Ork players who are running a Green Tide, but it's usually due to Tyranid shooting. Devourers are pretty good against Orks.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I'd rate them very highly based solely on cheap ability to take tons of bodies with a crap ton of attacks. Cheap bodies is a very good way (if boring) to beat people.

. Wouldn't that make nids, Chaos, IG and a few others even better then? I mean you can take 2 conscripts for the price of one boy. And he gets a tamed weapon and a plethora of rules to really buff it. Or what about nids who can take units of 30 for cheaper then boyz and whose movement is almost double? Throw in a venomthrope and now they are harder to hit as well.

Hormagaunts are 1 point less than a Boy, have less attacks, less strength, less toughness.

Gaunts: 2 attacks. Hitting on 4s wounding on 5s.
Boyz: 3 attacks. Hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s.
Shooting: Boyz have pistols
Guants: Have no shooting.

Point difference: 1.

When you make claims like i quoted you're proving that you're here to whine. Boyz are a fantastic unit, and far better than hormagaunts.

Didn’t you post a similar thread not to long ago?

Genestealers murder boyz if they get the chare or counter-attack and vice versa.

20 genestealers will kill an average of 27 boyz on the charge, if they are not buffed in any way.

Genestealer are, or should be, like Khorne Berzerkers, the ultimate "cheap" meele unit.

Genestealers cost twice as much as Boyz. If they weren't better than Boyz wouldn't that be a serious problem? As it stands there's not a huge difference between the two, functionally, when they fight each other.

 Marmatag wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I'd rate them very highly based solely on cheap ability to take tons of bodies with a crap ton of attacks. Cheap bodies is a very good way (if boring) to beat people.

. Wouldn't that make nids, Chaos, IG and a few others even better then? I mean you can take 2 conscripts for the price of one boy. And he gets a tamed weapon and a plethora of rules to really buff it. Or what about nids who can take units of 30 for cheaper then boyz and whose movement is almost double? Throw in a venomthrope and now they are harder to hit as well.

Hormagaunts are 1 point less than a Boy, have less attacks, less strength, less toughness.

Gaunts: 2 attacks. Hitting on 4s wounding on 5s.
Boyz: 3 attacks. Hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s.
Shooting: Boyz have pistols
Guants: Have no shooting.

Point difference: 1.

When you make claims like i quoted you're proving that you're here to whine. Boyz are a fantastic unit, and far better than hormagaunts.

Did you forget boyz have 2 attacks base as well? Or how about gaunts getting 3 more inches of movement (5if you pay an extra point. Or how about turning there attacks into 2 damage each with another buff

Boyz are hands down better than Hormagaunts or even Genestealers, and both of those are solid. Ork boyz is certainly one of the five best troop choices in the entire game, and a candidate for being the best troop choice of all.

The problem with the Ork index is that boyz only has synergy with characters and more boyz, which sucks. But boyz are still awesome. Let us not pretend that they are not.

SemperMortis wrote:
Did you forget boyz have 2 attacks base as well? Or how about gaunts getting 3 more inches of movement (5if you pay an extra point. Or how about turning there attacks into 2 damage each with another buff

They both have two attacks base. Choppas give +1 attack, while Scything Talons re-roll hit rolls of 1.
Adrenal Glands don't give extra movement, they give +1" to charge rolls. For 1 point a model it seems worth it for deep striking Hormagaunts but maybe not for footslogging Hormagaunts. (Maybe you were referring to some other upgrade that I'm not aware of?)

Toxin Sacs make them do 2 damage, but only on to-wound rolls of 6. It costs 2 points per model. This is a little bit better than it sounds as Hormagaunts can re-roll to-wound rolls when they have 20+ models in a unit. I haven't thought about it too much, but at first blush it doesn't seem worth it to me for the cost. Maybe it stacks well with certain stratagems. I'm still reading through my Tyranids codex and I haven't really figured things out yet.

If both upgrades are purchased that makes Hormagaunts 8 points per model. I think 30 model squad of Hormagaunts would still lose to a 30 model squad of Slugga Boyz, not counting Stratagems and Warlord traits and other things that make comparing Codex armies to Index armies difficult.

(There are several other differences between Hormagaunts and Boyz that haven't been talked about yet, but I don't know how deep we really want to get into it.)

I think that Hormagaunts are good at getting to enemy gunlines fast and with their 6" pile-ins they are great at tying enemy shooting units up, and I think they can probably do okay against more elite CC armies due to numbers, but when they run into a horde unit like Boyz that is better model-to-model at CC then most of their speed and pile-in advantages are wasted. This doesn't mean that Hormagaunts are bad, just that it is a bad matchup for them. I also think that while Hormagaunts are good, Boyz are GREAT. I don't think Boyz are necessarily broken, but I also wouldn't be surprised if they got a 1 point increase in the codex or some other minor adjustment.


This part is somewhat off-topic, but one thing I slightly dislike about Index version of Orks is that their bonuses tend to be +1 Attack. Ork Boyz have an extra attack built into their profile compared to most armies. Then the Boyz special rule is +1 Attack when you have 20+ models. The one of our three psychic powers is +1 Attack. Then the big bad Ork special Character Ghazghkull gives Orks in his bubble +1 Attack. None of this is bad, I'm just hoping for a little more variety with the codex.

One step I think they could take is separating Boyz back into several different units like they used to be. I think that consolidating many different types of Boyz into one unit made sense at the time, but in 8th it might make more sense to split them up again. Slugga Boyz get the +1 Attack with 20+ models like current Boyz do. Shoota Boyz get a bonus to shooting at 20+ models instead of the +1 attack. Trukk Boyz have a bonus that is not dependent upon unit size. (Trukk Boyz were a Fast Attack choice way back when Troops units generally didn't have access to dedicated transports and had to ride in transports that were purchased as Fast Attack choices. Trukk Boyz had the bonus of only being wounded on a 6+, not a 4+ if their Trukk was destroyed.)

Of course bringing back 'Ard Boyz is something I really want to see, even if they go back to being an Elite choice. They could even bring back Stikk Bommas, although that would be pretty far down my list.

No please, boyz are not fantastic. To make them good or decent at least you need 120+ of them, and in competitive games even 180+. Genestealers are a solid option even in lower numbers, like 40-60.

Boyz are not awesome, they're the only unit that works in the ork codex. And of course the two other versions of boyz, kommandos and stormboyz which are basically the same unit. A list with only t-shirt save guyz may be competitive not because of the boyz profile and their synergies but because of the rock-paper-scissor concept: many lists can't deal with that many cheap wounds, this is the reason why boyz can be effective. Drukhari don't have decent anti infantry, they just have lots of effective anti tank, which means that a green tide will always be an hard counter for them. Not because boyz are good, but because they don't have a real answer to deal with massive infantry models.

If they really were one of the best troop choices in the entire game they should have been solid even in lower numbers. Like hormagaunts and genestealers. Or even TAC marines, which are quite hated but still better than ork boyz IMHO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:


Of course bringing back 'Ard Boyz is something I really want to see, even if they go back to being an Elite choice. They could even bring back Stikk Bommas, although that would be pretty far down my list.

I'd like to see burnaboyz, meganobz, bikes, flash gitz, etc back in the game... not other boyz.

Ehm. No. One unit can be great and not be viable in lower numbers, specially if it is a horde unit.

Conscripts aren't a problem if you only bring 10 or 20. Is when you have 60-80 or more that they matter.

And those numbers of Boyz are insane. In a future Codex- situation where Ork units are cheaper and more balanced and usefull, 50-60 Boyz could be a strong core for an army, even 40, because theres other units that can do work and damage that the enemy needs to focus, so that way Boyz aren't the first priority target, and if they focus your boyz and not the rest of the army, good for you.

Right now you need 90-120 Boyz because thats the only thing in the Codex that does damage (And kommandos and Stormboyz). Just like Taus need 9-12 Tau's Commanders and a gak-ton of Drones.

Conscripts are screeners, ork boyz have a different role. IMHO conscripts are far from being a problem. The majority of the damage in any AM list is caused by other units. Conscripts are good because they can screen something valuable, but boyz are the most valuable thing in an ork army.

As you said they're the only thing in the index that does damage. They're nothing exceptional, really. They only shine compared to other ork units because everything else needs some help and they may shine against some opponent because he doesn't have an answer to deal with many infantries, that's all.

 Blackie wrote:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:


Of course bringing back 'Ard Boyz is something I really want to see, even if they go back to being an Elite choice. They could even bring back Stikk Bommas, although that would be pretty far down my list.

I'd like to see burnaboyz, meganobz, bikes, flash gitz, etc back in the game... not other boyz.

I would also like to see those units become good again, but those are units that currently exist and suck rather than units that have been cut and no longer exist at all even though models arguably exist for them.

I'm pretty optimistic that GW will fix Meganobz, Warbikes, etc. when the Codex comes out. (Maybe not Flash Gitz as they seem to have a hard time getting Flash Gitz right. I think making them Nobz might have been a mistake but I do dearly love the models.)

I don't think it has to be an either/or though, they could split up Boyz again and still make Meganobz and Burna Boyz good.

I agree in that boyz are good for what you get, but the problem is that they're our only really solid unit. I don't mind fielding 90 boyz, but the fact that 90 is considered on the low end is the problem. If our other units could actually pull their weight you would only need 90 boyz, you wouldn't need to bring 120-180 of them to be decent.

This conversation really shouldn't center around boyz, anyway. Even if they were the absolute best troop choice in the game hands-down with zero debate, it does not change the fact that the rest of our codex is extremely weak and lacks synergy or any real threat.

 Blackie wrote:
No please, boyz are not fantastic. To make them good or decent at least you need 120+ of them, and in competitive games even 180+. Genestealers are a solid option even in lower numbers, like 40-60.

40-60 Genestealers are worth 80-120 boyz, and that amount of boyz would work very well in pretty much any Tyranid list. In fact, any amount of boyz would improve most Tyranid lists. That is because boyz are very, very good, they just have almost no synergy with the rest of the Ork index. You can't use boyz with transports or alongside tankbustas or lootas for example. The Tyranid codex does not have these abnormalities. You can bring Genestealers along with Termagents, Hormagaunts, Warriors, Gargoyles, and even Carnifexes (with the codex). And if you could bring 30-60 boyz along, they probably work very well.

What troop choice in 8th edition would you put higher than Ork Boyz? I don't see many candidates to be honest.

I laugh when i see Ork players complaining about fielding 90+ infantry.

I play Tyranids. In casual games under 1k points i field over 90 infantry, for perspective. It's worse at 2000.

So you have a competitive list that requires a high model count. Oh no. The world's smallest violin plays here. Orks have always been a horde army, it's in their fluff, if you went into Orks thinking you'd win with something like 30-40 models on the table, I really don't know what to tell you.

 Marmatag wrote:
I laugh when i see Ork players complaining about fielding 90+ infantry.

I play Tyranids. In casual games under 1k points i field over 90 infantry, for perspective. It's worse at 2000.

So you have a competitive list that requires a high model count. Oh no. The world's smallest violin plays here. Orks have always been a horde army, it's in their fluff, if you went into Orks thinking you'd win with something like 30-40 models on the table, I really don't know what to tell you.

Well, imagine if you HAD to spend half of your points on Hormagaunts in order to be viable?

Tyranids has 50 different viable builds, Orks has 1. But yes, boyz are really good.

pismakron wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I laugh when i see Ork players complaining about fielding 90+ infantry.

I play Tyranids. In casual games under 1k points i field over 90 infantry, for perspective. It's worse at 2000.

So you have a competitive list that requires a high model count. Oh no. The world's smallest violin plays here. Orks have always been a horde army, it's in their fluff, if you went into Orks thinking you'd win with something like 30-40 models on the table, I really don't know what to tell you.

Well, imagine if you HAD to spend half of your points on Hormagaunts in order to be viable?

Tyranids has 50 different viable builds, Orks has 1. But yes, boyz are really good.

To date tyranids are one of the worst factions with 0 viable builds. That may change with the codex but come on. 50 builds? Ork players if you want to be taken seriously be realistic.

 Marmatag wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I laugh when i see Ork players complaining about fielding 90+ infantry.

I play Tyranids. In casual games under 1k points i field over 90 infantry, for perspective. It's worse at 2000.

So you have a competitive list that requires a high model count. Oh no. The world's smallest violin plays here. Orks have always been a horde army, it's in their fluff, if you went into Orks thinking you'd win with something like 30-40 models on the table, I really don't know what to tell you.

Well, imagine if you HAD to spend half of your points on Hormagaunts in order to be viable?

Tyranids has 50 different viable builds, Orks has 1. But yes, boyz are really good.

To date tyranids are one of the worst factions with 0 viable builds. That may change with the codex but come on. 50 builds? Ork players if you want to be taken seriously be realistic.

Oh, but how can Tyranids be the worst when space marines are the worst? get your stories straight, man

 Marmatag wrote:
I laugh when i see Ork players complaining about fielding 90+ infantry.

I play Tyranids. In casual games under 1k points i field over 90 infantry, for perspective. It's worse at 2000.

So you have a competitive list that requires a high model count. Oh no. The world's smallest violin plays here. Orks have always been a horde army, it's in their fluff, if you went into Orks thinking you'd win with something like 30-40 models on the table, I really don't know what to tell you.

I love horde armies, I just don't want an horde with the spam of the same unit. I'd like to spam the specialists as well, not only the cheap troops.

In the infamous 7th edition I could bring 15 meganobz, 15+ lootas, 30 tankbustas, 20+ bikes, 8+ trukks, 5 BWs, 50-60+ boyz etc and enjoy different decent lists. Now it's just boyz, a couple of units that are also boyz, plus characters that usually do nothing than buffing boyz. I complain about that, not the fact that orks should bring lots of models. That's positive IMHO, but they should have some variety and the possibility to mix the lists with different stuff.

Tyranids and SM are both very good and they have tons of viable different options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pismakron wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
No please, boyz are not fantastic. To make them good or decent at least you need 120+ of them, and in competitive games even 180+. Genestealers are a solid option even in lower numbers, like 40-60.

40-60 Genestealers are worth 80-120 boyz, and that amount of boyz would work very well in pretty much any Tyranid list. In fact, any amount of boyz would improve most Tyranid lists. That is because boyz are very, very good, they just have almost no synergy with the rest of the Ork index. You can't use boyz with transports or alongside tankbustas or lootas for example. The Tyranid codex does not have these abnormalities. You can bring Genestealers along with Termagents, Hormagaunts, Warriors, Gargoyles, and even Carnifexes (with the codex). And if you could bring 30-60 boyz along, they probably work very well.

That's exactly my point. You can make decent lists with hormagaunts, genestealer etc in which they are just part of the list, not THE list. Ork boyz are good/very good only if they are the entire list. That's why I can't consider them particularly good. 90 boyz at 2000 points are not solid at all, they can be all dead by turn 2 against some competitive lists.

 Marmatag wrote:
I laugh when i see Ork players complaining about fielding 90+ infantry.

I play Tyranids. In casual games under 1k points i field over 90 infantry, for perspective. It's worse at 2000.

So you have a competitive list that requires a high model count. Oh no. The world's smallest violin plays here. Orks have always been a horde army, it's in their fluff, if you went into Orks thinking you'd win with something like 30-40 models on the table, I really don't know what to tell you.

90 infantry models? How conveniently vague.

You're misrepresenting the problem on purpose.

No one has a problem with fielding 90+ infantry. No one has a problem with high model counts. A 5th edition battle wagon bash is probably the ork army with the lowest model count among all competitive lists we have ever had, and it still had (slightly) more than 90 infantry models, in addition to buggies, koptaz trukks and battlewagons. Outside of dread mobs, I cannot think of a single archetype that could go below 90 models at 2000.

Everyone has a problem with the only viable units being regular orks with basic wargear. Try fielding nothing but gaunts and characters for ten games in a row (no genestealers, all fast units blow), while not being allowed to cast more than a single psychic power and smite in those games.
Then come back and tell us how privileged we are to have a competitive list.

The problem is when gw delete templates they didn't compensante the nerf on army with poor bs, i mean 3,4, or 5 bs before with a template wasn't much a difference, but now it is, like sag really suck now, it's not even fun.