Well, well, well it looks like the Daughters of Khaine are going to get an update fairly soon. How do you think this will affect them? Any current players looking forward to this? Hopes? Opinions of DOK in general?
I'm looking forward to painting morathai or whatever she has become. I have a dark elf army but had no daughters of khaine (i didn't want to spend $50 for 10 models when I needed like 40 models for that army)
auticus wrote: I'm looking forward to painting morathai or whatever she has become. I have a dark elf army but had no daughters of khaine (i didn't want to spend $50 for 10 models when I needed like 40 models for that army)
Managed to pick up nearly 40 nicely painted plastic Witch Elves for £70 - very pleased
I've been wanting to start an elf AoS army. If the new models match the current theme, I'll probably hop on the train.
Not really sure a full-on greek theme would be my taste though. I really like the knives/blood cauldron theme best.
So - we have archer gorgons.
We have harpies.
Skeletons are a given..
Anyone know of a decent Talos-esque statue model so I can go full-on Harryhausen?
Correct. People who attended the seminar said they were called "Furies".
Aren't they already a Demon thing?
As far as I know, it was only in 40k that Furies were what they were called. I don't know if they're still around as I don't play CSM or Chaos Daemons and they're not in my brother's Death Guard book.
If you look in the AoS app, under the "Order" and "Chaos" Grand Alliances it lists Dark Elves and Harpies. That's how it's been for WHFB with both having Harpies. I could see Chaos getting Harpies in the future.
Pilum wrote: So - we have archer gorgons.
We have harpies.
Skeletons are a given..
Anyone know of a decent Talos-esque statue model so I can go full-on Harryhausen?
Mierce miniatures make a nice large one. Would also make a nice scenery piece.
I just wish the witch aelves were ten bucks cheaper. Even on ebay they are still 50 plus bucks. Price wise this army scares me a bit.
Other than that the army looks good, and that's pretty key. I do hope there is more than what was revealed though. An exalted serpent sorceress would be cool, or some kind of HQ that isn't Morathi...I like the gorgons and would prefer to center an army around those.
Pilum wrote: So - we have archer gorgons.
We have harpies.
Skeletons are a given..
Anyone know of a decent Talos-esque statue model so I can go full-on Harryhausen?
Weeelllll there is the Altar to Khaine
Thargrim wrote: I just wish the witch aelves were ten bucks cheaper. Even on ebay they are still 50 plus bucks. Price wise this army scares me a bit.
Other than that the army looks good, and that's pretty key. I do hope there is more than what was revealed though. An exalted serpent sorceress would be cool, or some kind of HQ that isn't Morathi...I like the gorgons and would prefer to center an army around those.
The hope is they do what they did with Stormcast and Sylvaneth and is re=price them or instead of 10 Aelves you get 20 instead.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I'm particularly interested in why Morathi has self-described as a demi-goddess.
Everyone else is in full blown Godhood, no?
The ones whose ascended were the ones who in the old world managed to fuse themselves to a Wind of Magic and survived to the new world. Like Tyrion was infused with the Wind of Light by Teclis and he originally had it beforehand, and both ascended together.
Malekith had the Winds of Shadow, Alarielle the Wind of Life etc.
Pirate Elves could well be next. The Scourge Privateers have there own section on the web store and GW seem to like basing AoS factions on old WFB subgroups.
I'm really looking forward to the background for these ladies, especially how they interact with the rest of the Order grand alliance. IIRC this is the first of the "new" AoS Order factions that could be considered (lawful)evil?
My friend has been eagerly awaiting this army since AoS started. That is to say, he’s been waiting for the first AoS era dark elf army to come along. He’s very excited with these and I can see why.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I'm particularly interested in why Morathi has self-described as a demi-goddess.
Everyone else is in full blown Godhood, no?
The ones whose ascended were the ones who in the old world managed to fuse themselves to a Wind of Magic and survived to the new world. Like Tyrion was infused with the Wind of Light by Teclis and he originally had it beforehand, and both ascended together.
Malekith had the Winds of Shadow, Alarielle the Wind of Life etc.
Did it ever get explained how they survived beyond sigmars silliness?
Given that most of them were rediscovered by Sigmar within their own respective realms of magic. It's pretty much assumed that they survived basically by clinging to the winds of magic and praying as Chaos ravaged the old world.
Pilum wrote: So - we have archer gorgons.
We have harpies.
Skeletons are a given..
Anyone know of a decent Talos-esque statue model so I can go full-on Harryhausen?
Pilum wrote: So - we have archer gorgons.
We have harpies.
Skeletons are a given..
Anyone know of a decent Talos-esque statue model so I can go full-on Harryhausen?
Also liking the Slannesh references and content, its setting up to lead quite nicely toward a larger fully Slannesh focused release in the near future. Also it seems that this big release will be the last big one before things return to the world of 40K and pushing out more codex.
Also liking the Slannesh references and content, its setting up to lead quite nicely toward a larger fully Slannesh focused release in the near future. Also it seems that this big release will be the last big one before things return to the world of 40K and pushing out more codex.
But BoLS insisted Slannesh has been squatted.
Now sure, they've no evidence for that. And they certainly don't appear to have actually read any of the background.....
But they don't just make stuff up. Not BoLS. Nope. Not them. Or Spikeybits.
The next thing, you'll be claiming they plunder pics and info plundered from the internet and their own forum, then give the credit not to me, who took the pics and got the info, but one of their mates, including links to his website where he's passing my pics and info off as his own....
I really hope whoever sculpted the snake version gets to work on a dragon. The wings and tail section scream that whoever did would make one epic and fantastic dragon model!
Really looking forward to the fluff with these galls. I wonder if Sigmar knows what Morathi is up to? I could see him turning a blind eye while the DoK are useful, and he might consider Morathi as a full deity a better option than Khaine getting resurrected for real.
GoatboyBeta wrote: Really looking forward to the fluff with these galls. I wonder if Sigmar knows what Morathi is up to? I could see him turning a blind eye while the DoK are useful, and he might consider Morathi as a full deity a better option than Khaine getting resurrected for real.
Most likely, sigmar is a rather pragmatic god since he sought an alliance with nagash also he was ignoring all the portents because he thought they were not a big deal until Vandus told him they were. XD
It makes the name a bit weird for me. I'd like some expansion on the idea of DoK who don't like Morathi. It's a bit boring when factions seem free of dissent.
Well the video certainly says there is some dissent, just that when anyone questions it openly they tend to wind up rather dead or vanished.
But like any major factor the faction itself, at its core, is unified. Which makes sense as you can't really field a single army when the faction behind it is totally split down the middle and is in full civil war (esp when it has to wage war on everyone else).
The overarching story, eh, my feeling is that it will either end with Morathi winning or at least not losing - ergo preserving the faction and her huge model; or she'll lose but wind up controlled by Khaine or otherwise still bound to the faction as a whole. Of course if they prove super unpopular they could be written out (doubtful) or if they are super popular split into two factions (possible but at this stage unlikely unless elves wind up as popular as space marines).
I'm honestly surprised we've not seen other aelf models brought into the faction videos and displays. With all three elf groups basically souped together one could imagine that they could poach models from each group to buff up a new faction grouping for each one. As it stands I just hope that the Daughters of Khain are going to clean up the dark elf units. Linking up the various groups and basically rebuilding them as a viable faction once more (Darkling Covens, Scourge Privateers, Order Serpentis, Shadowblades).
Honestly my fanlore has weird magic affecting everyone so I'll probably use that to make Daughters of Khaine much more anti Morathi if I start an army of them.
Its a shame the handlers and crews for the War Hydra/Kharibdyss and the DE chariot are not on separate sprues that could have been swapped out for DoK versions.
A good photo of the new nagas and some details too.
For those who don't know the bloody looking green one in the background is the snake woman off the Blood Cauldron kit placed onto a base instead of onto the Throne.
A neat "crystal turning" ability and they sound like they are aimed at being elite choices rather than front-line grunts.
And tomorrow is the turn of the Khinerai (harpies)
A good photo of the new nagas and some details too.
For those who don't know the bloody looking green one in the background is the snake woman off the Blood Cauldron kit placed onto a base instead of onto the Throne.
A neat "crystal turning" ability and they sound like they are aimed at being elite choices rather than front-line grunts.
And tomorrow is the turn of the Khinerai (harpies)
It does mention that there is a general choice (presumably an adaptation of the Blood Cauldron Medusae?) that will make the CC version Battleline.
So it sounds like you'll be able to make a pretty elite DoK army if you go that route.
The Heartrenders are a ranged hit-run unit with wings; so basically acting like mounted cavalry; darting in and out to swipe at a distance at foes
Lifetakers are however a close combat focused unit; swooping in to slash at the enemy.
They are akin to much faster and deep-striking style medusa models. I'm wiling to bet that the medusa versions hit harder, but that the Khinerai are much faster. It will be interesting to see how they work with the cavalry that they have access too. The Doomfire Warlocks are already confirmed so it will be interesting to see if the Dark Riders also feature in the army formally.
I do like the Heartrenders ability to shoot then have a chance to move again. Against an opposing list with not a lot of shooting that has possibilities.
It's an ideal move for a hit-run unit to have, esp if its a fragile unit. One of the worst things is a hit-run ranged unit that can't escape from near to its target after it attacks. It gives the unit a chance to be more than just a one-use glass cannon.
I'm willing to bet it means that they are very easily killed if they get into combat so the might well be a tricky unit to use right, but hopefully one of those units where when it works it works well to deliver a good surgical punch.
There's a lot of focus on buff/debuff with the spells and prayers they've shown. Less magical damage and more magical augmentation of your units on show; though I'm sure there will be a few damage spells in there too for good measure in the full release.
It also cements the Bloodwrack Medusae and Slaughter Queens as key units in the army. Though I doubt that they'll be splitting those units off from the combined kit that they come on (and a slight shame that the avatar is going to used from that same kit as his open arms pose is rather static/statue style for combat).
It will be odd having three or four character units that are not sold outside of a combined war-weapon kit.
Lots of stuff has also vanished from the GW store as of right now so that speaks of them updating their listings!
Aye but I'd bet Dwarves will beat Daughters both in ranged and close combat long term. Daughters appear to be a very "glass cannon" style faction. They'll hit hard when they hit, but won't have the power to last a long slogging match.
Also the New Zealand website is updated with the release!
Essentials - Battletome - Warscroll Cards - Dice
Morathi
Battletome (physical and digital)
Warscroll Cards
Dice (seriously why does EVERY faction except Tyranids get their own dice - what did Nids do!)
Witch Aelves\Sisters of Slaughter
Doomfire Warlocks/Dark Riders
Bloodwrack Shrine/Hag Queen on Cauldron/Slaughter Queen on Cauldron
Curiously there's no limited edition codex listed (unless that only gets listed on the UK site which won't be live for a while yet). There's also no getting started kit and it would appear that the medusa and harpies will be next week releases.
Also the Daughters of Khaine Blood Coven kit (daughters and war engine kit with discount) isn't featured, though its still listed on the main listing page.
Overall its a shame that they've tied all the mages into the Cauldron kit, I suspect those being broken up on ebay will be popular as will the combined kit with daughters to form the core of an army. Then again this is Age of Sigmar rather than Fantasy so gamers won't need rank and file Daughters in great number like was once needed.
Also trying to work out the one missing unit from the army, the blurb for the Handbook says that there are 16 warscrolls for the units in the army which corresponds too:
1 Khinerai Heartrenders
2 Khinerai Lifetakers
3 Blood Sisters
4 Blood Stalkers
5 Hag Queens
6 Slaughter Queen
7 Bloodwrack Medusa
8 Morathi High Oracle of Khaine
9 Morathi Shadow Queen
10 Cauldron of Blood
11 Bloodwrack Shrine
12 Witch Aelves
13 Sisters of Slaughter
14 Doomfire Warlocks
15 Avatar of Khaine
Right now I can only assume that the Cauldron of Blood might have been split into two warscrolls - one for the hag queen one for the slaughter queen. Otherwise there's the chance that it could be Dark Riders from the Warlock kit (though odd that its not shown on its own, although the Dark Riders do seem to be missing from the Shadowblades tab where they once were.
Kind of a shame that they've apparently not brought either of the huge Hyrda creatures into the army.
Aye they've listed the Blood Cauldron on the website under two listings - one for each rider (Hag queen and Slaughter queen). So it could be that they've given each of those cauldrons a different listing and thus their own warscroll.
It just seems odd that in a race which had the hydra before and in a new faction that is focused on snakes and harpies, not to have at least one variation of the hydra unit added into it. It would seem to be the ideal home for it (or at least one of the homes for it).
Then again if they are going to make the remaining Dark Elf units into one or two other armies in their own right then it might be that they left the hydra out so that the other army had something that wasn't just basic troops
I guess my main concern is that GW will spread the Sigmar Wartomes out so think by splitting armies up that they end up with a large range of armies, way larger than before, which makes it hard for them to ever keep them updated with new releases/rules. I really hope after they finish 40K this year, that they can turn to tidying up and giving Sigmar some better attention.
I'd hate to see Sigmar turn into a situation in a few years where they are considering dropping more armies or combining armies and dropping models to consolidate things (even though we've got the grand alliances as a means of consolidation already).
Overread wrote: Aye but I'd bet Dwarves will beat Daughters both in ranged and close combat long term. Daughters appear to be a very "glass cannon" style faction. They'll hit hard when they hit, but won't have the power to last a long slogging match.
Also the New Zealand website is updated with the release!
Essentials - Battletome - Warscroll Cards - Dice
Morathi
Battletome (physical and digital)
Warscroll Cards
Dice (seriously why does EVERY faction except Tyranids get their own dice - what did Nids do!)
Witch Aelves\Sisters of Slaughter
Doomfire Warlocks/Dark Riders
Bloodwrack Shrine/Hag Queen on Cauldron/Slaughter Queen on Cauldron
Curiously there's no limited edition codex listed (unless that only gets listed on the UK site which won't be live for a while yet). There's also no getting started kit and it would appear that the medusa and harpies will be next week releases.
Also the Daughters of Khaine Blood Coven kit (daughters and war engine kit with discount) isn't featured, though its still listed on the main listing page.
Overall its a shame that they've tied all the mages into the Cauldron kit, I suspect those being broken up on ebay will be popular as will the combined kit with daughters to form the core of an army. Then again this is Age of Sigmar rather than Fantasy so gamers won't need rank and file Daughters in great number like was once needed.
Not to poop too hard on the party but unless by dwarfs you mean fyreslayers, you're not beating DoK at anything. Even Karadron are gonna have a rought time considering DoK have good screening units.
As for the rank and file thing...ehhhhhh...you're still probably gonna need about 70.
The only concern is that the cauldron and daughters combined kit is out of stock on the GWUK site and appears to be listed as discontinued on one or two other 3rd party retailers (as opposed to out of stock).
Either that means they are repackaging it and relaunching it; or changing its contents or doing away with it.
Overread wrote: Aye but I'd bet Dwarves will beat Daughters both in ranged and close combat long term. Daughters appear to be a very "glass cannon" style faction. They'll hit hard when they hit, but won't have the power to last a long slogging match.
Also the New Zealand website is updated with the release!
Essentials - Battletome - Warscroll Cards - Dice
Morathi
Battletome (physical and digital)
Warscroll Cards
Dice (seriously why does EVERY faction except Tyranids get their own dice - what did Nids do!)
Witch Aelves\Sisters of Slaughter
Doomfire Warlocks/Dark Riders
Bloodwrack Shrine/Hag Queen on Cauldron/Slaughter Queen on Cauldron
Curiously there's no limited edition codex listed (unless that only gets listed on the UK site which won't be live for a while yet). There's also no getting started kit and it would appear that the medusa and harpies will be next week releases.
Also the Daughters of Khaine Blood Coven kit (daughters and war engine kit with discount) isn't featured, though its still listed on the main listing page.
Overall its a shame that they've tied all the mages into the Cauldron kit, I suspect those being broken up on ebay will be popular as will the combined kit with daughters to form the core of an army. Then again this is Age of Sigmar rather than Fantasy so gamers won't need rank and file Daughters in great number like was once needed.
I had a Cauldron lying around, and a bunch of witches.
How nice.
Im excited about this release!
Now that the war scrolls can be seen, how do you reckon you'll equip witches?
Before the battletome sisters of slaughter were the better choice but Im not so sure now..
I think going from a 6+ save to a 5+ (with a chance for a mortal wound) is slightly better than an extra 1 dmg attack in most cases, so I would lean toward shields over a second knife. Someone else may see the math differently than I do, though.
Mayk0l wrote: I had a Cauldron lying around, and a bunch of witches.
How nice.
Im excited about this release!
Now that the war scrolls can be seen, how do you reckon you'll equip witches?
Before the battletome sisters of slaughter were the better choice but Im not so sure now..
Personally with the Sisters new ability I am planning on MSUs. One, so the Witch Aelves taking double knives can charge in with a ton of attacks then follow up with the Sisters getting in with their 2" whips after piling in 6"
Well besides leaks and such their handbook isn't out yet so chances are you won't get a full impression until this weekend (although wouldn't shock me if some pre-orders arrive a little earlier). Then there's probably going to be a few weeks before they are played around with before there's some firm viewpoints on them.
Not to mention it looks like it will be a 3 week release. This week its Morathi and the rules - next week its the naga warriors and the week after that its likely the harpies (at least we assume so; the "coming next week" post only showed the naga for this coming weekend so we don't 100% know that the harpies won't appear as well)
Overread wrote: I guess my main concern is that GW will spread the Sigmar Wartomes out so think by splitting armies up that they end up with a large range of armies, way larger than before, which makes it hard for them to ever keep them updated with new releases/rules. I really hope after they finish 40K this year, that they can turn to tidying up and giving Sigmar some better attention.
I'd hate to see Sigmar turn into a situation in a few years where they are considering dropping more armies or combining armies and dropping models to consolidate things (even though we've got the grand alliances as a means of consolidation already).
I'm not sure they are going to keep updating the armies. I suspect they will just keep releasing new ones.
EnTyme wrote: According to the BoLS weekly GW release article, the Khinerai are coming this week, too.
That would be great news, not just for Khaine fans, but also for Tau as that means the release week for them is a week closer (assuming GW don't put something else between Daughters and Tau)
Well, I'm pretty sure GW provides the release info to sites like BoLS for those articles. They're really the only thing BoLS has left that's 100% accurate.
EnTyme wrote: According to the BoLS weekly GW release article, the Khinerai are coming this week, too.
That would be great news, not just for Khaine fans, but also for Tau as that means the release week for them is a week closer (assuming GW don't put something else between Daughters and Tau)
That's weird. Next week's pre-orders are listed on Warhammer Community, and don't include the Kinerai.
EnTyme wrote:Well, I'm pretty sure GW provides the release info to sites like BoLS for those articles. They're really the only thing BoLS has left that's 100% accurate.
FLGS get the info on the monday, which is when BoLS posts it. But now Warhammer Community posts the info (without the prices though) on the Sunday before, they seem to want to get ahead and release the info themselves.
And for this week, I'm actually not certain BoLS is accurate.
Another DoK focused story on the Malign portents site https://malignportents.com/story/cause-celebre/. Nice to have some fluff justification for my DoK sharing a colour scheme with my Stormcast
Khinari and Melusai are both up for sale and they've a selection of warscroll combined kits up on show as well (oddly they've shown them as they are even though most also include a cauldron in order to have the leader present)
There's a lot of focus on buff/debuff with the spells and prayers they've shown. Less magical damage and more magical augmentation of your units on show; though I'm sure there will be a few damage spells in there too for good measure in the full release.
It also cements the Bloodwrack Medusae and Slaughter Queens as key units in the army. Though I doubt that they'll be splitting those units off from the combined kit that they come on (and a slight shame that the avatar is going to used from that same kit as his open arms pose is rather static/statue style for combat).
It will be odd having three or four character units that are not sold outside of a combined war-weapon kit.
Lots of stuff has also vanished from the GW store as of right now so that speaks of them updating their listings!
Can the 40k Avatar of Khaine be used in place of the altar’s statue? Might be more dynamic, and they’re depictions or the same guy.
Any thoughts on which Melusai to take? I'm leaning toward Blood Sisters since their touch attack goes on a 4+ instead of the Stalkers 6+. Then again you have to get the Sisters into combat to use it. Not planning on taking Morathi right away.
There's a lot of focus on buff/debuff with the spells and prayers they've shown. Less magical damage and more magical augmentation of your units on show; though I'm sure there will be a few damage spells in there too for good measure in the full release.
It also cements the Bloodwrack Medusae and Slaughter Queens as key units in the army. Though I doubt that they'll be splitting those units off from the combined kit that they come on (and a slight shame that the avatar is going to used from that same kit as his open arms pose is rather static/statue style for combat).
It will be odd having three or four character units that are not sold outside of a combined war-weapon kit.
Lots of stuff has also vanished from the GW store as of right now so that speaks of them updating their listings!
Can the 40k Avatar of Khaine be used in place of the altar’s statue? Might be more dynamic, and they’re depictions or the same guy.
I'd assume if it will fit on the same base then you could well take it without issue
So reading the battletome it really feels like DoK are a horde army, at least if you run witches.
Also, as I am not a regular AoS player: is it normal for an army like this to be able to spam mortal wounds like this?
Kinda feels like they are a super glass army. Can spam out a lot of mortal wounds and damage, but if anyone looks at the units funny they break into million pieces.
Well make sense that witches and sisters are the main body of most of the army in the sense that they are the most basic infantry unit.
The rest of the army is basically elite units, with cauldron and Morathi being closer to the heavier hitters and damage soaks.
So yes I'd say they are very glass-cannon style. You've got a lot of surgical strike potential and area buffs to boost troop potential; if the army can get the charge on the enemy then they will do a lot of damage; plus they've got quite a bit of viable ranged attacks in their cavalry and elites to make up for no rank and file archers.
I'm thinking that taking one or two War hydra as allies might be a viable option; introducing something tanky that isn't just morathi into the army; something that can follow up from the charge and strike of the rest of the army and, with regen, has a decent chance to make it into combat alive and in good health (plus hydra have a ranged attack as well).
The stealth temple looks like it has the most potential to help survive and attack. -1 to hit is huge, and free teleport for any unit seems really nice too. Granted that's a command trait and I haven't really analyzed the rest, at the bare minimum it means morathi isn't your general so you lose out on her command ability.
Most rulers are good at ruling, but it doesn't make them good generals. Even if they are good fighters on the battlefield they might still lack in the proper skills of warfare needed to be a general.
So its not abnormal for a heroic leader of a faction to have generals who are more skilled at directing the armed forces.
Morathi might tell them what people or settlement or such she wants taken; but the generals would be the ones to work out the specifics of the military exercise to undertake the command.
While that is true that in many cases rulers aren't generals and vice-versa, none of the fiction involving her ever has her on the battlefield taking orders from a subordinate or even sitting back while a subordinate gives the orders.
I realize that that is just me, hating gamey games that override the narrative, so thats just something I have to deal with.
Having read the book today, I think the book is very well done though. It looks like a fun glass-hammer army. I think it lacks the durability to really win powergamer events but I think it can be a tough contender in the upper mid card of a tournament for sure. Will be an absolute blast in a casual campaign environment.
I really don't know how many stories there are of morathi being on a battlefield, but there's tons of references of her being manipulative and scheming.
There's a lot of plausible reasons for morathi to not be the general if you tie it into scheming and manipulation
Skimask Mohawk wrote: I really don't know how many stories there are of morathi being on a battlefield, but there's tons of references of her being manipulative and scheming.
There's a lot of plausible reasons for morathi to not be the general if you tie it into scheming and manipulation
Indeed she is more like Neferarta - she can be devestating on the battlefield but that does not mean she will be there. I do think it would be a funs short story to have the two of them sitting down for a drink together - I assume they are aquainted as I would have thought that the Mortatchs would haev atttended upon the Pantheon in the Age of Myth.
Not being the general if she is there I agree is a bit odd but again Neferata had others lead her armies if she felt it was useful, political or they were a sacrfice.
I can see her having others lead her armies. If she was not present on the battlefield.
By those standards, even Nagash could simply not lead his armies and dole it out to a necromancer because politics.
Truthfully anything can be hand waived by writing narrative for it. I can write a narrative now explaining how archaon and sigmar tag team against nagash and their respective forces are allies and it all makes sense.
Tabletop is a gross missrepresentation. Each unit is representing dozens to hundreds to even thousands of its own kind in the lore. So what is 10 elves on the table might be 1000 or 10,000 in the lore/myth to that battle.
As such if Morathi were leading and knew she was going to get into the thick of the fight she might well devote control of the army to a general who would command the greater part of the battle whilst she was distracted fighting (you cannot command if you are knee, er, tail deep in bodies and blood).
Also whilst she might not be the "general" command of larger and larger armies would often require more than one commander in charge of the forces. So whilst she might be in near total command, a general or two might well command segments of the army itself during the battle.
eh. That numeric representation was given back in like 1997 in a white dwarf by I believe Tumos ... I could be wrong it might have been Andy I don't remember it was 21 years ago... and pertained to whfb.
I don't think current AOS represents that. At least I've never heard any of the designers ever reference one warrior = X warriors for real. AOS on the table doesn't really represent any battle how it would work for real, its so grotesquely abstract anymore with the way movement doesn't matter as much and how the shooting rules work.
Again what you are saying is accurate, but (to me) not apt if they are sharing the same tablespace. If Morathi is on the table with one of her peon generals, she is not taking orders from peon general.
That borderlines the old high elf intrigue at court rule.
That is what it is. It just feels wrong to me. I can't change how it works though. I think there are some named characters that always must be the commander if they are present... unless I'm mistaken. Nagash? Archaon?
auticus wrote: I can see her having others lead her armies. If she was not present on the battlefield.
By those standards, even Nagash could simply not lead his armies and dole it out to a necromancer because politics.
Truthfully anything can be hand waived by writing narrative for it. I can write a narrative now explaining how archaon and sigmar tag team against nagash and their respective forces are allies and it all makes sense.
It still doesn't feel right
If she's not on the battlefield of course someone else would lead her army...
There's making up narrative, and then theres extrapolating and plausible inferences. There's been a few snippets in the book about her being in battles and fighting, but nothing about tactical acumen, strategic brilliance, or generalship. She even loses her ability to command when transformed.
In contrast there's so much about her manipulating, lying, scheming and deceiving. She made a religion based on a lie purely to fuel her power. Way more plausible to have minions be the battle commander and the target than her be the general of every force. Especially when she loses control quite often.
Actually in the daughters of khaine book it speaks of in the age of chaos that Morathi was often at the forefront of the battles leading her armies.
Which infers based on Jeremy Vetock's writing of the background that she is a capable general with a lot of experience leading armies that did so a great many times
Meglomaniacs with large egos tend to not want other people in charge lol. Especially those that are lusting after their son's immortal position and have the need to do everything in their power to prove how awesome they are.
Its a gamey mechanic. Its ok. We don't need to try to justify it.
Technically archaon wouldn't have to lead an army he is in either in AOS despite how ludicrous that is... but his command ability lets all heroes use command abilities so for min/max purposes you'd never do that.
Regarding the subordinate leaders thing, I always assumed that the big named heroes (in my armies, that's usually Arkhan the Black) might not be directing troops (IE, be the army general) because they have other goals in mind - they might have "Big picture" goals on the battlefield, while the General is focusing on the battle itself. Each to their own I suppose.
I must say, I really like the new aesthetic of Morathi and the DoK - I'm tempted to get a few just for P&M. Very cool looking army.
Speaking of the Slaughter Queen. Does Orgy of Slaughter trigger the Kraith's Deciples of Slaughter ability?
In a broader sense are abilities that say 'when a unit does X in a Y phase' triggered by abilities that say 'unit does X as if they were in the Y phase'?
Wording is pretty specific "if they fought in the combat phase" . So orgy of slaughter or worship through bloodshed wouldn't trigger it because you're fighting in the Hero phase
auticus wrote: Meglomaniacs with large egos tend to not want other people in charge lol. Especially those that are lusting after their son's immortal position and have the need to do everything in their power to prove how awesome they are.
Its a gamey mechanic. Its ok. We don't need to try to justify it.
Technically archaon wouldn't have to lead an army he is in either in AOS despite how ludicrous that is... but his command ability lets all heroes use command abilities so for min/max purposes you'd never do that.
It makes total sense to me. First off, from what I see in the fluff there is no way Morathi (or almost any special character for that matter) is going to show up for a battle of as small a scale as we actually play in AoS. This even extends to a huge number of elite units and monsters, and has been that way going back to WHFB. If we look at novels and how battles are depicted it's reasonable to assume that the average AoS battle is simply one part of a larger one that at the 28mm scale would take up an entire store or more. Each side probably has at least a half dozen 'generals' around directing different parts of the battle. Morathi simply happens to be at this part of the battle and isn't being directed by the 'general' but rather the other way around, along with a bunch of others. Morathi doesn't have general status in the context of the board because she isn't commanding the troops directly--she's directing her lieutenants that are serving as the army generals. If anything that almost makes more sense because Morathi wouldn't lower herself to commanding each individual individually unit anyways.
Having read Malazan Book of the Fallen I'm totally open to having several generals of vast world renown and mystical power who'd never want to give up command working together on the same battlefield
Also my khinari and snakes are finally sent out, looking forward to them arriving (hope for tomorrow but more likely that they'll turn up on Monday). So I've been trying to work out a paint scheme - any DoK fans who are painters got any views/thoughts
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/752346.page
So having seen quite a few lists already, I'm noticing that they are all kind of samey.
Particularly that none use Morathi as the general, and Pit of Shades is everywhere. Highlighting once again how important mortal wound spam is wherever you can get it.
I think it's still a bit early to call trends myself. Morathi as not-general makes sense though, because she loses her awesome command ability when she transforms.
Yeah. They migiht as well have not given her a command ability. or gotten rid of the rule that says she loses it when she transforms. I doubt anyone will ever use it and they've created a waste of ink/rules by giving a rule that will never be used.
... And then... that will happen... and I will RULE THE WORLD!
In all seriousness I really like this kit, way less finicky than I thought it'd be. There are blocks cut out of the shoulders on the torso which the arm parts fill in meaning right and left arm pairs on the spears always line up.
The ones on the left follow the instructions exactly (except the faces, I preferred the faces, the ones on the right I played with a little bit by giving each set of tails the torso from the previous model and each head from the model before that and it works for the most part.
I suggest building the torso and legs separately as its kind of awkward putting that big head on the model afterwards, and the waist is really the only part that gives you a degree of freedom to change the pose.
Yes, it's only available in the bloodwrack shrine / cauldron of blood kit.
Which leads me to question something: if the battleline requirement for blood sisters is a 'bloodwrack medusa' general, can that general be the medusa on the shrine, or does she have to be on foot?
Likewise, the battalions that require a hag or slaughter queen in them, can they be riding the cauldron of blood?
They might have found that listing a single character for £30 doesn't help them and that its easier to simply list it with the cauldron kit, where instead the price seems like a bargain
auticus wrote: Yeah. They migiht as well have not given her a command ability. or gotten rid of the rule that says she loses it when she transforms. I doubt anyone will ever use it and they've created a waste of ink/rules by giving a rule that will never be used.
Eh, I'm not sure she is actually a bad general in all contexts. I think it's more of a perception. The command traits for DoK aren't all that great and I suspect once players try them out they'll find Morathi as a more attractive option. Morathi also benefits heavily from having two huge units to order, something players are unlikely to have right now. I could be wrong but I wouldn't write her off yet. Even if she is non-general material for matched play, bad options are still better than no options.
I guess to me if there's an option but one that is never picked, to me it shouldn't exist at all.
Its like the spells. The old randomized spells existed because GW knew people would always choose the same one or two spells everytime, which is also happening now with mind razor and pit of shades.
GW doesn't seem to like fixing things. Rather than pick an idea and work on it until it's good they'll jump ship at a moments notice. So you get the same problem over and over because nobody fixes it, they just pick a new idea.
Overread wrote: They might have found that listing a single character for £30 doesn't help them and that its easier to simply list it with the cauldron kit, where instead the price seems like a bargain
It's also because the Medusae literally cannot be removed from the kit without them reworking it. It is on shared sprues, same with the other 2(yes: 2 characters) that you can make out of it.
Spoiler:
This is what I've been referring to as "the character frame".
It has the parts for:
Spoiler:
Bloodwrack Medusae
Slaughter Queen
Hag Queen
Couple in the fact that you have the Avatar of Khaine that can be built from it and even if you don't want a Cauldron or Shrine it isn't a bad kit by any stretch of the imagination.
auticus wrote: I guess to me if there's an option but one that is never picked, to me it shouldn't exist at all.
Its like the spells. The old randomized spells existed because GW knew people would always choose the same one or two spells everytime, which is also happening now with mind razor and pit of shades.
Keep in mind that not-matched play does exist for some of us. Not that I blame you for overlooking that given your community. At any rate if we want to talk options that don't exist is matched play we could get into equipment options and unit sizes where there is literally no reason to take a third of the options available. By comparison this is pretty tame.
auticus wrote: I guess to me if there's an option but one that is never picked, to me it shouldn't exist at all.
Its like the spells. The old randomized spells existed because GW knew people would always choose the same one or two spells everytime, which is also happening now with mind razor and pit of shades.
No? Why are people hyping up using pit of shades? Lot of dispossessed players in your group? The spells have a priority system based on what list you're using them with and the fact that people in your group use pit of shades tells me that plenty of people think that priority system is very different.
Yes mindrazor is always the top but all the other spells have their place and different people find different spells to be best. Apparently your group thinks pit of shades is good whereas TGA has pretty unanimously agreed it's in the bottom two. For that group over there Shroud of despair is the second best spell in most lists with Mirrordance(amazing in Khellebron Morathi lists) and Steed of Shadows(very specific applications) being next. The withering and pit of shades are considered to be about on par and inferior to the others simply because they don't really accomplish much and there are better options. DoK don't usually have very many spell casts available and so have to maximize their impact. The Doomfire warlocks signature spell for example is superior to PoS in most situations and while it can't highroll like PoS can, it's does more damage on average than PoS even against Move 4"(3 vs 3.5). Standard DoK lists have between 2-3 spell casters and most lists will be Mindrazor, Shroud of despair, [OTHER]. If your list is using doomfire warlocks, it makes PoS largely irrelevant.
My personal opinion is that the only way I would take PoS is if I was doing a gimmick Morathi Balewind thing and even then I'm pretty sure I'd be disappointed.
Which one is correct is heavily meta dependent as well as list dependent, and the fact that there is such a massive difference in opinion across different play groups tells me that in this particular case you're wrong not only about what spells are best but also about the value of spells that only have specific applications.
Here's a specific example of Mirrordance being the best spell available to your second caster with shroud being 3rd and PoS being a POS :
Khalebron temple+Morathi with mindrazor+2 Hag Queens+Cauldron+BloodWrack with Mirrordance+ Bloodwrack with shroud. Turn 1 Khailebron jump Bloodwrack with Shroud to 9" away from enemy but within 24" of Bloodwrack. Transform Morathi. Cast Mindrazor on Morathi. Put Blessing of Khaine, Catachism of Murder, and Sacrement of Blood on Morathi, Cast shroud on unit you want dead, Mirrordance Morathi with the bloodwrack. Move Morathi 14" over your opponents screening units, charge over other screening units. Congratz you just did right around 25 wounds to a 3+ save first turn from literally the back board edge. If you high-roll shroud you could concievably ace a treelord ancient and Allarielle through a shield of dryads.
Because against any units that have a 6" or less movement, you have the ability to cause a fair amount of mortal wounds. It seems that that is something people are super fixated on.
Unassisted the spell deals at least one mortal wound on an orc or human infantry unit (that's 5", what's the slowest unit in AoS?) only 42% of the time, a unit with 6" is hurt 34% of the time, 7" 24% of the time.
In contrast SoD potentially adds 1-3 models slain on battleshock, opens up potential targets for mindrazor, and goes off 91% of the time unassisted.
Doom fire is far stronger than PoS. It has an easier casting value. It has the same range. Doom fire will always do at least D3 in comparison to PoS which needs to beat movement, making it do 0 damage against faster units. Against larger units you automatically do 6 mortal wounds while PoS still needs to highroll against low movement.
Pit of Shades seems great for foot-character sniping IMO. Or is just generally awesome against Nurgle, of which there is a lot at the moment.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I just started combing through the options in detail, and holy crap why is no one talking about how awesome Temple Nest is? Seems totally OP at that cost.
Automatically Appended Next Post: After further combing, the point costs overall look pretty good (sidenote, the path to glory tables as well) and a big shoutout to the massive unit discount being used in an effective/balanced way. Also glad they have resumed having a good chunk of battalion/theme force options. Overall very impressed with this book, good job GW.
Yeah, I rather like it to. Succinct and to the point, with the subfactions being a mix of special rules, a change to a battalion, and a mandatory customization somewhere rather than a stacked battalion setup like Sylvaneth.
My only outstanding questions are that stuff about the shrines and cauldrons...
But yes, Temple Nest is delish. Our local GW manager wants to run two of them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Me, I'm wondering about the bladed bucklers. Has anyone mathed out their effectiveness on witch aelves and sisters o' slaughter?
There's a thread in the other sub forum discussing bucklers, I go into so light math but also other reasoning. Personally I am thinking bucklers are the better option overall, with daggers more useful on small flank units.
Anyone have a guess as to which base size the Avatar of Khaine on foot is supposed to have. With all the characters I have from my Cauldron kits I wanted one of each version...
The box doesn't come with a base for him, but if you use the 40k version as a reference it's on a 40mm. I personally bought a 50mm for it since it just looks better.
dracpanzer wrote: Anyone have a guess as to which base size the Avatar of Khaine on foot is supposed to have. With all the characters I have from my Cauldron kits I wanted one of each version...
The pics from GW seem to put it on a 40mm. That's what I did with mine. It's a tiny bit too small for my liking, but I use Shattered Dominion bases and the next bigger one is 65mm, which is way too big.
50mm, like mmzero252 used, is probably a good option too.
I am looking to give AoS a try with the Daughters. What would be folks recommendations to get a 'core' 1,000pt army going?
Cheers.
2 of the "Blood Coven" boxes.
A pair of Melusai boxes.
Pair of Kinerai boxes.
Pair of Doomfire Warlock boxes.
Might sound like a lot but the Blood Coven boxes get you 2x Shrines/Cauldrons and all the parts within them allowing for you to have some wiggle room in there and a pair of Witch Aelf/Sisters of Slaughter boxes at a discounted price.
I am looking to give AoS a try with the Daughters. What would be folks recommendations to get a 'core' 1,000pt army going?
Cheers.
2 of the "Blood Coven" boxes.
A pair of Melusai boxes.
Pair of Kinerai boxes.
Pair of Doomfire Warlock boxes.
Might sound like a lot but the Blood Coven boxes get you 2x Shrines/Cauldrons and all the parts within them allowing for you to have some wiggle room in there and a pair of Witch Aelf/Sisters of Slaughter boxes at a discounted price.
That's a lot more than 1,000 pts. The Blood coven box alone is ~650pts if you take all the heroes.
Sadly, unless your warlord is a Bloodwrack medusa, only wych elves are battleline. And given how expensive the kit is, you kinda have to buy them with a cauldron.
For 1,000pts, I would say: blood coven box, a melusai box (built with the bows so they're battleline with a medusa warlord), 1 kinerai box and a warlock box. That's actually 1,020pts, but you have one of each kit, so it's pretty good for modeling, and two battleline.
So basically the same thing as Kanluwen, divided by two (he probably though you asked for a 2,000pts list).
I am looking to give AoS a try with the Daughters. What would be folks recommendations to get a 'core' 1,000pt army going?
Cheers.
I'm starting with the bloodwrack medusa, two units of sisters, two units of stalkers, and two units of heartrenders.
Running the snakes in a temple nest battalion that's three drops at 980 points.
Downside, it's basically the opposite of what I'd call 'core' unless you intend to double up on temple nests.
My plan going forward is to build the Slaughter and Hag Queens, one of them on the cauldron depending on if it's allowed by the battalion requirements and fill in the core with witch aelves and sisters of slaughter until they can form a Draichi Ganeth slaughter troupe.
I am looking to give AoS a try with the Daughters. What would be folks recommendations to get a 'core' 1,000pt army going?
Cheers.
2 of the "Blood Coven" boxes.
A pair of Melusai boxes.
Pair of Kinerai boxes.
Pair of Doomfire Warlock boxes.
Might sound like a lot but the Blood Coven boxes get you 2x Shrines/Cauldrons and all the parts within them allowing for you to have some wiggle room in there and a pair of Witch Aelf/Sisters of Slaughter boxes at a discounted price.
That's a lot more than 1,000 pts. The Blood coven box alone is ~650pts if you take all the heroes.
Sadly, unless your warlord is a Bloodwrack medusa, only wych elves are battleline. And given how expensive the kit is, you kinda have to buy them with a cauldron.
For 1,000pts, I would say: blood coven box, a melusai box (built with the bows so they're battleline with a medusa warlord), 1 kinerai box and a warlock box. That's actually 1,020pts, but you have one of each kit, so it's pretty good for modeling, and two battleline.
So basically the same thing as Kanluwen, divided by two (he probably though you asked for a 2,000pts list).
The issue, quite simply, is that I cannot in good conscience suggest someone buy a box of Witch Aelves when the Blood Coven box exists. Even if someone is just wanting to do 1k--I'm going to always suggest they buy a few of those boxes to get Witch Aelves instead.
I am looking to give AoS a try with the Daughters. What would be folks recommendations to get a 'core' 1,000pt army going?
Cheers.
I'm starting with the bloodwrack medusa, two units of sisters, two units of stalkers, and two units of heartrenders.
Running the snakes in a temple nest battalion that's three drops at 980 points.
Downside, it's basically the opposite of what I'd call 'core' unless you intend to double up on temple nests.
My plan going forward is to build the Slaughter and Hag Queens, one of them on the cauldron depending on if it's allowed by the battalion requirements and fill in the core with witch aelves and sisters of slaughter until they can form a Draichi Ganeth slaughter troupe.
One of the sects or whatever they are allows you to run another two melusai units along with your Temple Nest. Plus you can run more than 5 melusai in each unit. Sadly it's still very "core", but you can have a toooon of snake women without doubling up on temple nest
I am starting an army and I want to have an army list that's built around Morathi and the Melusai/Khinari. What do you think would be the best list/rules for this? I am not opposed to the other units but I would like to have a lot of Melusi.
I kept getting wrecked with my Sylvaneth so if I play AoS again I want to be prepared.
Glass cannon army, so games can be very swingy. If you go up against them and get crushed don't worry too much because it will just take learning how to counter-play. On the other hand, if you do well against them initially don't let your guard down. I would tentatively reccomend focusing on units over trying to kill cauldrons first because while the latter does put out a potent buff it can be difficult to kill unless you get it on it's own. Also remember that even small units will put out good offense, and that generally speaking medusa models = loads of mortal wounds, aelf models = loads of attacks.
Hag queens can make a unit immune to battleshock, if you see them running around on their own its worth putting the effort into killing them. Ones mounted on a cauldron can be much harder to kill, at which point it might be a safer bet to kill whatever unit it's tending to, but that depends on what kind of raw damage you can do to it.
The whole army has novel ways of giving mortal wounds, most of them are in close combat, and their units with shields actually don't get the benefit to their save against shooting attacks. Use this to cripple dangerous units or again, snipe the heroes and their heavy buff game.
If you get in close combat pay attention to your target priorities, a unit without the Hag Queen buff is a preferred target, a unit that can't mortal wound you on a miss/save is a preferred target, a hero that somehow isn't wrapped in bodies is often a preferred target.
The explanation GW gave that they build cities makes no sense since Death and Destruction do have cities. Malign Portents tells you Nagash main city is under siege.
If you look at the faction, they are the most un-order faction you could get:
* Morathi is a super villain who wants to ascend to Godhood. This has nothing to do with Order as she is trying to usurp the order of things.
* Her army consists of "mutants" and abominations who are tainted by Slannesh.
* She is not an ally of Sigmar. It does not make sense that the other forces of order would accept her as an ally. This isn't like Allarielle who is aloof and cold towards non Sylvaneth, but, when push comes to shove shes still a good person who wants to save everyone. If Allarielle saw a dying human on the road she would heal them. Morathi would slit their throats and feed their blood to the iron heart. You can't maintain that those two are part of the same faction.
* Her entire army are hyper violent and they live just to do battle and kill things. Morathi had to send her warriors out of the main city because they kept killing eachother.
To me, they are really a Destruction aligned faction because they aren't loyal to chaos, aren't dead and their sole purpose is to cause mayhem.
IMO the problem is that Death and Destruction are too heavily focused on Nagash and Gorkamorka. Every faction in them has to be either loyal or in the same group as those two Gods. This is not the same for Order and Chaos where you have a whole pantheon of different deities.
Plus, why do Sigmar and Allarielle tolerate this monster whose soldiers reave the countryside killing innocent people for blood and are clearly a bit dodgy? This is precisely the same reason they are at war with Nagash and Gorkamorka....
EnTyme wrote: You're still operating under the assumption that "Order" means "the good guys".
Then what does Order mean exactly? Why shouldn't there be a faction for Sigmar/Alarielle separate from Malerion/Morathi and Tyrion/Teclis? They have nothing in common and are not allies. Lumping them in with team Sigmar is entirely arbitrary when they're clearly working against him as much as Gorkamorka or Nagash. Why is Sigmar going after Nagash but not Morathi?
Order seems to be "not Chaos and you don't like Gorkamorka or Nagash." Team Sigmar is terrible lorewise to the point I had to make my own little world of anti everyone else in the Realm of Metal to avoid it.
I'd put Daughters under Death. They gain power through the blood and sacrifice of others right? They thrive on the death of others.
pm713 wrote: Order seems to be "not Chaos and you don't like Gorkamorka or Nagash." Team Sigmar is terrible lorewise to the point I had to make my own little world of anti everyone else in the Realm of Metal to avoid it.
I'd put Daughters under Death. They gain power through the blood and sacrifice of others right? They thrive on the death of others.
Deaths main deal isn't that they gain power through blood and sacrifice. Its that they are a faction composed of spirits and the undead in one form or another. Morathi is a lot of things, but shes not dead.
Whereas if the main trait of destruction is that they destroy and kill things. Well, this is the sum total of what the Daughters of Khaine do. If you ask, "is this a destructive faction?" the only real answer is yes. They don't fit the orcs and monsters aesthetic but then, its a bit like WoW having Blood Elves in the Horde. ATM Destruction and Death are really a single army splintered arbitrarily into several parts whereas Chaos and Order are genuine full factions allied together in a common cause. Would Morathi going "if I want to kill as many people as possible to become a God then wouldn't it make sense to manipulate a dullard like Gorkamorka and use his wars to fuel my ascension" be kinda in character. Instead of tip-toeing around her followers murdering villagers and various subterfuge that does not actually benefit her or Sigmar.
Yeah I think this is the key problem. These are "political factions" but Order clearly isn't a political faction. It works fine for Sylvaneth and Dwarves where you have a bit of friction but they're still on the same page. But when you have the like of the Morathi who basically despise Sigmar and have their own agendas completely separate from those of Sigmar its impossible to see why they're even part of the same faction.
Characterizing Order as 'builds cities' is an extreme oversimplification of that Grand Alliance's goals and character. If you need to go into nuance about how the other factions build cities then you need to give Order the same consideration, and the distinction becomes clear.
Morathi may want to become Khaine, but she still wants that structure of civilization to exist and support her the way it supported Khaine. While you could argue that Morathi herself might fit in with Destruction because Destruction is parasitically reliant on the other factions to exist, or with Death because she's a crackling egomaniac, at the end of the day her goal for the wider world and her place in it more closely aligns with what Sigmar wants to make.
It doesn't help that Death and Destruction more or less belong to two entities that she has personal enmity with.
That said, it looks like GW could be laying the groundwork for a schism in the Order faction. The DoK allies options are limited to stormcast, the deepkin, and other factions descended from dark elves.
pm713 wrote: Order seems to be "not Chaos and you don't like Gorkamorka or Nagash." Team Sigmar is terrible lorewise to the point I had to make my own little world of anti everyone else in the Realm of Metal to avoid it.
I'd put Daughters under Death. They gain power through the blood and sacrifice of others right? They thrive on the death of others.
Death is just that - mostly the dead - either animatd corpses, ghouls, spirits or vampires - they often have wildy different lifestyles and Realm views - ie Flesh Eater Courts are pretty much Desruction and most of Nefertata's vampires are Order. But they are Dead and subject to the will of Nagash- so Death Alliance. Technically there should be a while load of living warriors and sub factions that are part of the Death Alliance as they serve Nagash.
Chaos are all about blood and sacrifice but they are Chaos worshipers so Chaos.
Morathi fights against Chaos (for vengeance) and Death (Nagash wants his souls back) whilst building a complex society (not Destruction) with her at the top and is not a subject ot Nagash. so Order.
Sigmar needs her and her warriors, she thinks they are weak but knows she could not stand alone against Choas and/or Death. Like Neferata, she always thinks she will come out on top and has many complex plans in play.
EnTyme wrote: From the few Deepkin previews we've seen, it sounds like they, too, have a tendency to slaughter villages.
All factions do it to a greater or lesser degree - there are some Stormcast who think the Daughter of Khaine are great and look forward to figting alongside them. Others less so.
I like how when GW makes faction motivations simple people complain about it being shallow, but the moment they add nuance people begin complaining it doesn't make sense.
EnTyme wrote: From the few Deepkin previews we've seen, it sounds like they, too, have a tendency to slaughter villages.
All factions do it to a greater or lesser degree - there are some Stormcast who think the Daughter of Khaine are great and look forward to figting alongside them. Others less so.
Hopefully the Deepkin will be interesting.
Oh, I'm aware. Even the Sylvaneth are often Unseelie Fae who would be just as likely to kill a wounded traveler for trespassing as they would be to heal him and invite him for the Feast of the Vernal Equinox. We likely get to have this discussion all over again next month after the IDK battletome describes them as hating surface dwellers (that's speculation on my part, but based off of the note from the "mayor", probably isn't far off).
pm713 wrote: Order seems to be "not Chaos and you don't like Gorkamorka or Nagash." Team Sigmar is terrible lorewise to the point I had to make my own little world of anti everyone else in the Realm of Metal to avoid it.
I'd put Daughters under Death. They gain power through the blood and sacrifice of others right? They thrive on the death of others.
Deaths main deal isn't that they gain power through blood and sacrifice. Its that they are a faction composed of spirits and the undead in one form or another. Morathi is a lot of things, but shes not dead.
Whereas if the main trait of destruction is that they destroy and kill things. Well, this is the sum total of what the Daughters of Khaine do. If you ask, "is this a destructive faction?" the only real answer is yes. They don't fit the orcs and monsters aesthetic but then, its a bit like WoW having Blood Elves in the Horde. ATM Destruction and Death are really a single army splintered arbitrarily into several parts whereas Chaos and Order are genuine full factions allied together in a common cause. Would Morathi going "if I want to kill as many people as possible to become a God then wouldn't it make sense to manipulate a dullard like Gorkamorka and use his wars to fuel my ascension" be kinda in character. Instead of tip-toeing around her followers murdering villagers and various subterfuge that does not actually benefit her or Sigmar.
Yeah I think this is the key problem. These are "political factions" but Order clearly isn't a political faction. It works fine for Sylvaneth and Dwarves where you have a bit of friction but they're still on the same page. But when you have the like of the Morathi who basically despise Sigmar and have their own agendas completely separate from those of Sigmar its impossible to see why they're even part of the same faction.
No but being just dead people is incredibly limiting. Like I said to get power from blood and sacrifice they kill others. Their power comes from death hence a death faction. Destruction also makes sense in a way. Anything is better than Order really.
