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Made in is
Sneaky Striking Scorpion




Iceland

So what are your opinions about the Bucklers that Witch Aelves now have access to? Worth it or not? Feel like they might not be worth it as they are really reliant on them getting 6+ saves while sacrificing 2 attacks.

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

Sisters of Slaughter can also take the bucklers as well.

Both SS and Witch aelves lose one attack on their stats not two (the second bladed knife for witch aelves gives +1 attack). Which takes them from 3 attacks to 2.


The trade off is a chance to do damage when in combat and also a higher chance of surviving combat from the +5 save.


Thing is looking through the tome, most of the abilities are focused around boosting speed and mobility and getting Daughters of Khaine into close combat, with a variety of other abilities that generally support that attacking position. Essentially its a glass-cannon army that wants to get the charge and get the initial hit. As such having the most number of attacks would, to my eye, seem to be the generally most advantageous move.


However at the same time the bladed bucklers give one mortal wound, as such when their ability works it gives the aelves a chance to take down stronger enemies, plus with a slight increase in surviving at the same time. So to my eye it might work as a single unit upgrade on a group designed to go after something tougher in the enemy line. Ideally something with a tougher defence but not too many wounds of its own.


Of course as the bucklers stand out there's a half decent change that any such group will attract increased fire from the enemy to start with; which puts a focus on either throwing as many movement boosters into that unit to push them into combat as fast as possible, or relying on them as a distraction whilst other elements of the army move forward.
   
Made in is
Sneaky Striking Scorpion




Iceland

Excellent points.

I agree that the increased survivability(5+ vs 6+) seems nice to have. The problem I have found in the few games I have played(using Khinerai) is that the 6+ proc is just so bloody rare. On a 10 gal squad I am losing 10 attacks in exchange for 1 mortal wound every 6th witch compared to average of 3 wounds those 10 lost attacks lose. Of course those wounds can be saved so they may very well go down to being at best 1 wound in total. Depends on the unit really and what synergy one would go for.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/11 15:17:24


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Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






Well let's break this down by the numbers.

First off, the dagger doesn't take them from 2 attacks to 3, it takes them from 3 attacks to 4, because realistically they will be getting +1 attack from Frenzied Fervor. So for 10 of them we are looking at an average of 10 wounds (before saves) going to 13 wounds (before saves). If the enemy has a 6+ or even no save this is great, but if that's the case your Witch Elves are already going to kick ass anyway. Further, many such units lack significant rend themselves so having a 5+ save makes you a good bit more durable, which is something the entire army struggles with.

What witch elves also struggle against is enemies with decent saves. Against a 4+ save (which is pretty common) those numbers suddenly become a mere 5/6.5 wounds, in which case adding even one mortal wound from bucklers is significant. Also note that even against an enemy with rend -2 or better you still make the save roll; it will always fail but there is still a chance at 6s to bounce mortals.

So honestly I would go with bucklers every time because the daggers only make you win harder in a situation you were probably already winning, whereas the bucklers give witch elves a decent increase in effectiveness where they really need it.

"Putting a statement in quotations makes it seem more legitimate."
--Bette R. Withname

Imagine three people with the same set of values but radically different emotional states, each of them believes their position is more valid than the other two, they all post using the same account, and your job is to make it coherent. 
   
Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




I would rather give them the 2 knives. I feel like Martyr's Sacrifice is a far better source of extra moral wounds even if its not as reliable.

Also, Mindrazor
   
Made in is
Sneaky Striking Scorpion




Iceland

So after playing a bit with these and testing out some theories I have come to a sort of a conclusion.

Witch Aelves with Bucklers are nice as they will survive longer, but they are even nicer if you pair them with a Cauldron of Blood to increase their armor value(Bloodshield). However, that does mean their movement is very limited as they'll have to stay in rage of the Cauldron.

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Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






I could see 10-man units with daggers being useful for flank/objective duty, the extra punch could mean a lot against outflanking units that are generally low-defense and they have a decent chance of not being in range of a character for the extra attack from their ability.

"Putting a statement in quotations makes it seem more legitimate."
--Bette R. Withname

Imagine three people with the same set of values but radically different emotional states, each of them believes their position is more valid than the other two, they all post using the same account, and your job is to make it coherent. 
   
Made in gb
Highlord of Terra






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

What do the naga and harpy witch elves do? If either of those provide resilience or heavy hitting you could tool up the basic witch elves to cover your bases.

Cost is also important, my only AoS army is Moonclan, I simply ported it over as night goblins seemed better off as an AoS army than as O&G, They are dirt cheap and can afford a sucky save, 6+ to 5+ doesn't really make much difference though, gobbos die, move on. Witch elves will die in droves also, and cost much more than gobbos, you just have to play with that in mind. Your witch elf army will be vulnerable to damage, accept that and dont fret about pasting over an obvious weakness.

If you can find an augment that gives them rend or some such I would look at resilience through rapid attrition. If a unit is killy enough it doesnt need much of a defence to be survivable, dead opponents don't generate attacks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/14 19:20:20


n'oublie jamais

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
 
   
Made in is
Sneaky Striking Scorpion




Iceland

 Orlanth wrote:
What do the naga and harpy witch elves do? If either of those provide resilience or heavy hitting you could tool up the basic witch elves to cover your bases.

Cost is also important, my only AoS army is Moonclan, I simply ported it over as night goblins seemed better off as an AoS army than as O&G, They are dirt cheap and can afford a sucky save, 6+ to 5+ doesn't really make much difference though, gobbos die, move on. Witch elves will die in droves also, and cost much more than gobbos, you just have to play with that in mind. Your witch elf army will be vulnerable to damage, accept that and dont fret about pasting over an obvious weakness.

If you can find an augment that gives them rend or some such I would look at resilience through rapid attrition. If a unit is killy enough it doesnt need much of a defence to be survivable, dead opponents don't generate attacks.


The big thing with DoK is using the right spell for the right situation. You can potentially boost Witch Aelves considerably with spells which will make them hard hitting.

Also remember that DoK have a FnP rule so with a Cauldron of Blood you will have Witch Aelves with bucklers who have a 4+ save and a 6+ FnP.

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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






BomBomHotdog wrote:
I would rather give them the 2 knives. I feel like Martyr's Sacrifice is a far better source of extra moral wounds even if its not as reliable.

Also, Mindrazor


It's either like you completely ignored the math or didn't understand it. The dmg potential is essentially the same. 10 more attacks (at -1 rend or not) doesn't really move the needle but at all, except in the corner case against just 6+ save enemies. The upside to bucklers is that they make the unit that much more survivable in combat, especially in the shadow of a cauldron. So there truly isn't a compelling reason to take two knives, unless you truly believe you are a lucky person and are going to beat the averages more than not.

I get that statistics don't necessarily represent the way you feel about a rule, but the numbers are the numbers. So unless your opponent only fields 6+ save units, bucklers appear to be the way to go.

Currently focusing on Traitor Guard  
   
Made in ca
Calm Celestian






 Orlanth wrote:
What do the naga and harpy witch elves do? If either of those provide resilience or heavy hitting you could tool up the basic witch elves to cover your bases.


The harpies have the buckler built in, it has a different name but it functions the same. The snakes, in turn, just have the 5+ save in ranged and close combat, and have other baked-in rules that let them assign mortal wounds, but these can be affected by modifiers, unlike the bucklers. They have a battalion that gives them another vector to deal mortal wounds through as well.

I've heard it said that she can melt you with her eyes. 
   
 
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