Recently saw the results of the poll where the majority of team members voted for the ban of Imperial Armor at the upcoming ETC. This started a new round of debates about balance in IA and the ability to use it. Well, we shall also discuss it.

Everyone knows that Games Workshop officially allowed to use the models and rules of Forge World at all tournaments and events. And this is always given as the first argument by the supporters of IA. But the organizers of a particular tournament still often disagree with it.


In fact, the ban on major tournaments is quite logical. Units are not always balanced and equivalent even inside a GW codex. Therefore, adding additional variables to the balance is not a good idea. And the matter is not even in the IA itself, because even extensions from GW, such as Death from the skies, or Stronghold assault, were not always used in tournaments. The tournament is pretty well-adjusted, mechanism and one of the main tasks of the organizers are to reduce the imbalance to a minimum.


On the other hand, IA can compensate the disadvantages of some armies that are weak at the level of the codex, and bring diversity to the already formed tournament metagame. At the recent LA Open IA was allowed, but even so, all the first places were occupied by classical Eldar with reapers. Obviously, even despite all the claims to its balance, IA could not a break the classic operating schemes. But, perhaps, it made this tournament more interesting for someone.

Why is everything so uneven with these rules? Forge World – are dreamers. They create beautiful models that you really want to build and paint, and that looks very cool on the table. But at the same time, they think little of the balance and create the rules, which, in their opinion, the units should have. Of course, the correlation with other units inside the book, and even more, with the GW codices is out of the question. As a result, we get Greater Daemons, who at a minimum price, are able to stand alone, an army equivalent to them at a cost. Even the designers themselves realized that something went wrong, judging by the prices corrected in Chapter Approved.



In addition to the overpowered units, of course, there are both logical and balanced ones - but almost identical to the units from a codex. In this case, they are a little better or worse, which makes useless someone of this pair. Compare the Decimator and Hellbrute. It would be logical to use such models as an alternative, codex units, but this is not always possible due to the difference in the wargear.





Well, it is necessary to mention the reverse side of the beautiful models - they are all made of resin. And this is fragility, difficulties in assembly, and all the other known shortcomings.


As a result, there’s still no possible answer about the use of IA. The books themselves are too unequal. Yes, if you let it into your games, you get a wonderful variety of interesting units and rules. But along with this, you risk getting a spam of overpowered units, which will turn the game into torture. The only way out, capable to bring order at least somehow - to allow only full-painted models. This, at least, will exclude those who simply got maximumly powerful miniatures in order to win fast. And what do you think? Share your opinion about Imperial Armor in the comments!

Check our blog for more: https://warzone40k.com/imperial-armor-balance

Again with this "Forgeworld is OP" bs?

"I played against a model I didn't like once and found out it came from a side book so if I can get people to ban the entire book I don't have to play against that one thing anymore."

At this point, there's really no logic behind trying to ban FW. Check the "top 5 strongest" poll and nothing there is FW. It's largely just historical bias.

Name one overpowered unit in the current FW books.


How bout we also ban the Eldar codex from tournaments? It's been filled with cheese since a few editions now.

I personally do not understand people who are against IA units in game. Especially with the recent nerf the most obvious perpetrators received. My thought are that FW is a subsiderary of GW so they are official and that adding more units to the game can help with balance by upsetting the meta and adding new combinations and unforseen lists to tournaments. No one was banning special books in 7th like the campaign books, so why get your undies in a bunch now?

I say ban everything except tactical marines to avoid imbalance.

FW didn't sweep LVO, as was said, but you still say it's unbalanced? That is incredibly hilarious. The op pretty much said 'it didn't even place in the worlds largest 40k event, buuuut it is still unbalanced and should be banned'.

I'd rather play against some beautifully done FW models that have whacky rules than Dark Reapers in poorly done purple and black.

This seems like an elaborate troll, but I guess some grognards will hold onto their grudges unto death.

 Teena Hancock wrote:
Recently saw the results of the poll where the majority of team members voted for the ban of Imperial Armor at the upcoming ETC. This started a new round of debates about balance in IA and the ability to use it. Well, we shall also discuss it.

Everyone knows that Games Workshop officially allowed to use the models and rules of Forge World at all tournaments and events. And this is always given as the first argument by the supporters of IA. But the organizers of a particular tournament still often disagree with it.


In fact, the ban on major tournaments is quite logical.

Except most major tournaments do allow FW...and there's no issues with it in practice.

Units are not always balanced and equivalent even inside a GW codex. Therefore, adding additional variables to the balance is not a good idea.

Do you have any evidence of this? There certainly appears to be no issue in tournaments that allow FW...FW stuff isn't dominating top tables, there's no FW stuff keeping some armies from doing better or acting as a major crutch for others, and in fact there's very little from FW even worth running in competitive play.

But along with this, you risk getting a spam of overpowered units, which will turn the game into torture.

This applies just as much to anything from a codex, and by looking at tournament data from 6E, 7E, and 8E where FW is allowed, there's really no evidence that FW plays a strong role in this. When you look at top tournament tables in these editions, FW stuff is relatively rare and tends to only pop up for a few months before it gets nerfed (while codex stuff often went entire editions without fixing).

I have no problem playing against FW units, but I can understand that some people do without getting my panties in a bunch

If a group or tournament wants to ban FW they can. There is no law stating they are required to allow it. My local did for a long time because the TO didn't have all the IA books to reference in case of rules disputes, and they were a chunk of change. The FW indexes helped because there were only a few to buy.

Personally I find it spices up the game to see the occasional FW model, and I use them sometimes also.

I prefer FW units to standard codex units, Variety is the spice of life as they say.

Fire raptor. Pretty much only spammed FW unit at the LVO and that thing was spammed. Elyssian drop troops are another one that don't seem balanced against codex entries but they didn't make a huge showing at LVO (DKoK did but I'm not familiar enough with them to have an educated opinion other than they look cool as hell)

That top 5 most powerful poll is a joke BTW, guilliman is number 1 by a long shot but he only showed up on 3 top 100 tables (less than the number of eldar armies in the top 8).

The other OP FW units would probably be the big Tau suit (yahvara or something) and the necron pylon thing. But both of those armies are in such a bad place right now they kind of need the help.

The sicarian tanks for SM are significantly better than the pred versions after the CA price drop and if you can keep it alive the leviathan offers a decent choice but compared to what's out there in GW codexes I don't think they qualify as OP.

Lias Issadon is a popular FW choice but I'm not sure if he tips the scales as OP or if it's just that SM units are struggling right now so his impact isn't as big as it could be.

I think the FW hate is driven by 3 major factors. FLGS can't sell FW models thus have no motivation to see them in their store (they'd rather you use stuff you can buy from them and advertise to observers opponents cool new models they can make a buck from).

Secondly I think it is a hold over from previous editions where some of their stuff was broken and a hassle/expensive to get making it a "pay to win" gotcha unit that made people feel slimy.

And finally I think that people are against FW for the same reason they are against soup, when you have that many options of units it is easy to cherry pick the best and end up with some wonky combos that I don't think GW has the ability to balance leading to issues like chaos fire raptors with marks of nurgle being -2 to hit

People still associate Forgeworld as bad fanfic or “officially recognized 3rd party homebrew” for 40K. Some of it is deserved, most is not.

If GW isn’t willing to pull FW directly under its own umbrella - sell it on their site instead of as if it were a seperate entity, I see banning continuing and being justified.

 Stormonu wrote:

If GW isn’t willing to pull FW directly under its own umbrella - sell it on their site instead of as if it were a seperate entity, I see banning continuing and being justified.

w...why? What difference does the website make to the game? Its still a GW domain, run by GW employees from GW HQ in Nottingham...it's just a separate sales channel.

Problem with trying to determine if forge world is OP is it really comes down to a case by case basis. For rau'kares, he is not really broken anymore at 1200 points he is over costed if anything now, grossly over costed.

Fire raptor gunship, over powered, not because of it's stats but because it's point cost. Quad bolter and laz Cannon batterys? Pretty meh, sacarion? Pretty meh. A warhound Titan? Seeing as how it's 2k meh.

Wow, this again.

You'd think after allowing Forge World did not utterly overthrow the entire tournament scene and bring it crumbling to the ground, you'd think people would stop claiming that allowing Forge World would overthrow the entire tournament scene and bring it crumbling to the ground.

"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"

You want to ban stuff for being op you need to ban first gw codex. Fw stuff generally leans toward weak side. Not surprising seeing they have only developers worth anything at gw company

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:

If GW isn’t willing to pull FW directly under its own umbrella - sell it on their site instead of as if it were a seperate entity, I see banning continuing and being justified.

w...why? What difference does the website make to the game? Its still a GW domain, run by GW employees from GW HQ in Nottingham...it's just a separate sales channel.

Not me, personally, but a lot of people tend to lump things into “Us” and “Them”. Until GW removes that distiction - fully merges FW into GW so there is no distiction between the two, people will attempt to carve out FW as being seperate - and somehow inferior - to the rest of GW’s catalog. Not inferior in model quality, but inferior in authenticity.

Again, all of this boils down to: don't be a douche.

If you're playing non-tournament games, you should have an interest in whether or not your opponent is having a good time (winning or losing regardless). The only FW stuff I have access to is a couple of Predator options and a Leviathan dreadnought. I clear it with my opponent, and while I've only played two games with them, they haven't broken anything yet. However, if it becomes unfun for my opponent (I normally don't win) I'd be happy to set them aside. I restrict them to larger games anyway.

It would be healthy to see a restricted / banned list for these major tournaments.

You don't want to blanket ban FW. If a unit is too strong, like Alphabet-Soup before the nerf, just ban that unit; don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

And it's clear that Reapers are vastly overperforming, simply place a restriction on the number of reaper units and models you can bring, in total. Maximum 3 units, maximum 15 total models. Boom. Now it's a strong unit that requires synergy with the rest of the army to be good, while still being very strong in and of itself.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wow, this again.

You'd think after allowing Forge World did not utterly overthrow the entire tournament scene and bring it crumbling to the ground, you'd think people would stop claiming that allowing Forge World would overthrow the entire tournament scene and bring it crumbling to the ground.

"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"

Forge world malific lord spam won a grand tournament. So there is your example of when forge world broke the game. Same with pre alphabet soup nerf.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wow, this again.

You'd think after allowing Forge World did not utterly overthrow the entire tournament scene and bring it crumbling to the ground, you'd think people would stop claiming that allowing Forge World would overthrow the entire tournament scene and bring it crumbling to the ground.

"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"

Forge world malific lord spam won a grand tournament. So there is your example of when forge world broke the game. Same with pre alphabet soup nerf.

1) It didn't destroy the community though. If you can't see the difference between "hey, this army won a tournament" and "THE SKY IS FALLLING WOW HOW WILL THE TOURNAMENT SCENE SURVIVE?!" then I don't know what to tell you.
2) Also, it was promptly nerfed into the ground.

Reaper spam broke the game. I vote we have a FW-only tournament and ban GW.

Hey you asked for an example of when fw broke the torunoment, and I gave you one. Your moving the goal post now to "it does not break the community" malific lords were absolutely broken because eof how cheap they were and smite spam, and we're pretty much a staple of any competitive chaos list until they were nerfed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And you just proved that the malific lords were game braking. Your second point, points out that it was nerfed into the ground. That forge world unit was so powerful, they had to nerf it right after because eof how strong it was, because either would have destoryed the community.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But we digress, the really issue is fw OP is really a case by case bases not a blanket statement that anything from forge world is OP remove right away.

Let's look at the laviathen dread. Can just wreck vehicles and buildings, but cant be drop podded in and I had one blasted off the table turn one by basalisks.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Hey you asked for an example of when fw broke the torunoment, and I gave you one. Your moving the goal post now to "it does not break the community" malific lords were absolutely broken because eof how cheap they were and smite spam, and we're pretty much a staple of any competitive chaos list until they were nerfed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And you just proved that the malific lords were game braking. Your second point, points out that it was nerfed into the ground. That forge world unit was so powerful, they had to nerf it right after because eof how strong it was, because either would have destoryed the community.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But we digress, the really issue is fw OP is really a case by case bases not a blanket statement that anything from forge world is OP remove right away.

Let's look at the laviathen dread. Can just wreck vehicles and buildings, but cant be drop podded in and I had one blasted off the table turn one by basalisks.

I asked for an example of it overthrowing the entire tournament scene and bringing it crashing to the ground. The other wording I used was "ruining".

Neither of those things happened. Even if Malefic Lords hadn't been nerfed, the tournament scene would grind on and on inexorably. Forge World is not any worse for tournament play than Games Workshop's other products are.

Imperial Armor has units that are OP, and units that are UP - but let's not kid ourselves, GW Codecii have just as many, if not more, of units that fall into either category.

I understand that in the past IA may have been crazy in general; but those days are not these days.

IA is no worse, or better, than GW's Codecii.

Secondly I think it is a hold over from previous editions where some of their stuff was broken and a hassle/expensive to get making it a "pay to win" gotcha unit that made people feel slimy.

I think you hit the nail on the head for me here.

Playing Warhammer at school, Forgeworld was some weird website you had only vaguely heard of (and the internet was new and weird enough itself!) that people used to pull out some OP unit with loads of crazy special rules that you never even knew existed. This made it the ultimate gotcha!

Whats worse was that most of us didn't even have Codices back then, you found out unit stats and rules just by talking to someone who might have read their brothers Codex one time. So basically you could make up any rules you liked for Forgeworld because no one could ever check! I only found out this year that the Choppa rule was real and not something we made up haha!

So I have definitely have a historic bias against Forgeworld!

What doesn't help is that Forgeworld is mainly about vehicles, monsters, fliers etc. that I don't really like. I prefer battles with a healthy dose of regular troops vs regular troops

As much as I try, in Spain Forgeworld is outright banned in nearly everywhere, from local tournaments to big GT's, even the biggest one (Talavera).

The arguments are the same ones that were here 20 years ago, but at the end of the day the guys organizing the events are the same ones 20 years ago.
Age of Sigmar here "died" for the same reason, Spain is full of grognards, and Fantasy is still more popular.
To that, one has to add that Chineforge is very, very common in Spain. So that adds to the "Forgeworld is bad, and it doesn't matter, most people don't buy the legitimate product anyway"

The whole discussion seems to have missed out on the obvious solution: Imperial Armour is allowed, with a list of exceptions. Don't want to see a Warhound with five hundred points of Guard for Command Points in your tournament? Think Aetaos'rau'keres is wildly overpowered? How about banning the problem units directly instead of banning everything else in Imperial Armour (which includes some of the worst units in the game right now (Corsairs), for the record) along with them?

Forgeworld seems to have long been a source of wildly unbalanced models, both because of their lack of testing versus their larger cousin, the fact that they get the rules secondhand as if they were an outside company, etc.

Things seem to be improving. Several local tournaments have removed their ban on Forgeworld, only keeping the 31pl limit. Even Reece, who has gone on them before, has mentioned he might even be okay lifting the 31PL limit for ITC.

If FW ups their game this could finally be the point where they are considered equal of the standard GW stuff.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The whole discussion seems to have missed out on the obvious solution: Imperial Armour is allowed, with a list of exceptions. Don't want to see a Warhound with five hundred points of Guard for Command Points in your tournament? Think Aetaos'rau'keres is wildly overpowered? How about banning the problem units directly instead of banning everything else in Imperial Armour (which includes some of the worst units in the game right now (Corsairs), for the record) along with them?

Because this argument holds no better argument for ForgeWorld than it does for any GW product and ultimately banning things you think is too powerful is entirely subjective and almost impossible to implement without personal bias.

Ban certain models or units that are OP-don't blanket ban anything.

People keep attributing some past heinous sins to FW and some long past track record of brokenness, but nobody can actually say when this was, or, for the last 4 editions where FW has been allowed in large events (starting with late 5E normalization) when FW was a consistent and major balance issue in tournaments.

Even going back to 3E and 4E, it's hard to see much that was an issue. 200pt Hydras? 650pt Baneblades that were hilariously easy to disable or destroy? Dark Eldar Raven fighters? Even the Warhound was only putting out four S9 AP2 small blast shots back then with its turbolasers, and required a separate FoC to field (so basically you had to be playing an above 2k game).

At worst, there's a couple stinkers that inevitably get nerfed within a few months, and in 5E and 6E FW actually did public playtesting of many new units that universally resulted in better rules while GW's " months between codex releases" meant units often went multiple editions without fixes.

As a chaos player I say forgeworld is fine and it shoud not be banned! With that said, I think chaos has the most to benefit from IA. Whole chunks of our army are still missing with GW refusing to produce mini's for it. Things we have had in the fluff for years and years, things our legions and warband could not operate without (drop pods and thunderhawks). It also gives us our only REAL flyer. Sicario tanks are icing. But in the end I say chaos as a faction has the most to lose from a FW ban.

That being said I always have two lists for each army composition. One with FW and one without for the cry dinks ..

I just wish GW would make them MORE official to get the optional part out of peoples minds. Currently. RAW, FW is just as legal as a GW codex. Its time to get people to understand that so we can have less debates and arguements.

But even as a FW mega fan I think both dev teams need to work closer. The insane prices pre CA are evidence of this.

 Vaktathi wrote:
People keep attributing some past heinous sins to FW and some long past track record of brokenness, but nobody can actually say when this was, or, for the last 4 editions where FW has been allowed in large events (starting with late 5E normalization) when FW was a consistent and major balance issue in tournaments.

It would probably be a good idea to ban Grey Knights since they were broken in 5th.

Jaleous people with no money trying to stop others people playing with theirs own toys...
FW rocks and haters gonna hate

Again not all, just some forge world are broken

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Again not all, just some forge world are broken

Much like some GW.

I'll expect your support in my upcoming "Ban GW, Forge World Only!" thread.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Again not all, just some forge world are broken

Much like some GW.

I'll expect your support in my upcoming "Ban GW, Forge World Only!" thread.

Yeah sure

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Again not all, just some forge world are broken

Much like some GW.

I'll expect your support in my upcoming "Ban GW, Forge World Only!" thread.

Yeah sure

touche.

Still, you see the point, yes?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Again not all, just some forge world are broken

Much like some GW.

I'll expect your support in my upcoming "Ban GW, Forge World Only!" thread.

Yeah sure

touche.

Still, you see the point, yes?

Nope, because the point you are trying to make falls appart really quickly.

You cant just pull the "let's ban GW! Forge world only!" Because 40k is a GW game. fW products are basically the exp. A more apt example would be if games workshop all of a sudden made units for 30k which forge world runs as a game, and we're crazy strong in 30k. Then I would be ok with a forge world only, no gw stuff for our Horus heresy games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Again I have no issue withFW in my games mostly because it's an all your eggs in one basket unit.

I wouldn't mind playing against FW units... If anyone actually had a real copy of IA and not dome battlescribe screenshots.

I often find out after a game, whatever was too good to be true with their questionable rules usually is.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I wouldn't mind playing against FW units... If anyone actually had a real copy of IA and not dome battlescribe screenshots.

I often find out after a game, whatever was too good to be true with their questionable rules usually is.

This is why I ask that people have a physical or digitally purchased copy of their army book for 40k. Forge World or GW proper. With the advent of FW making their stuff available via iTunes(cheaper no less!), there's no excuse for someone to not have it.

Battlescribe is something I do not trust. Period. Nor do I trust anything that they 'found' online.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I wouldn't mind playing against FW units... If anyone actually had a real copy of IA and not dome battlescribe screenshots.

I often find out after a game, whatever was too good to be true with their questionable rules usually is.

Then insist people bring physical copies. I have two physical copies thanks to my own ineptitude. I don't think this is onerous as long as you also ban non-physical GW rules.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I wouldn't mind playing against FW units... If anyone actually had a real copy of IA and not dome battlescribe screenshots.

I often find out after a game, whatever was too good to be true with their questionable rules usually is.

That's another big issue, is people don't have the rules for them, the actual rules.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I wouldn't mind playing against FW units... If anyone actually had a real copy of IA and not dome battlescribe screenshots.

I often find out after a game, whatever was too good to be true with their questionable rules usually is.

That's another big issue, is people don't have the rules for them, the actual rules.

No more an issue than it is with GW. If you want to see the rules, make sure people have them.

I once had to explain to a player that his Long Fangs got to pick a target to re-roll 1's against, because he only used Battlescribe as his codex and didn't read anything. He didn't even own the book.

Nope, the majority of FW is fine, heck even Malific's main issue was GW bodge job on Smite

Unfortunately, codexes just don't support the game very well. The IA codex is part of the problem, but its just a piece of the scattered rules issues. You see similar problems with stuff like the latest rules for Knights and all the armies that only have like 10 pages of rules trying to justify a $40 codex.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I wouldn't mind playing against FW units... If anyone actually had a real copy of IA and not dome battlescribe screenshots.

I often find out after a game, whatever was too good to be true with their questionable rules usually is.

this is honestly most of the issue with FW has historically been.

Someone tries to run something with ridiculous rules, claims its FW, but either makes up the rules or plays them wrong, and then sours everyone in FW despite as a result.

It was touched on in an earlier post, but I’ll bet a lot of the bias has to do with unfamiliarity and inaccessibility of FW for 40K.

Up until a year or two ago, I myself had no access to any of the FW books, much less the models (for various reasons). I imagine most 40K players like me - only some have even heard of FW, and even fewer own any of the books or models. That unfamiliarity - coupled with it being promoted some independantly of standard 40K makes for a recipe of “I don’t know anything about it, therefore it’s easier just to ban it all” instead of go through books you don’t have (and may not want at all) and determine which individual items to ban from tournament play.

craftworld_uk wrote:
I say ban everything except tactical marines to avoid imbalance.

The 1990 Warhammer 40,000 league only allowed Space Marine armies - and only a Captain and Assault, Tactical and Devastator squads, so that's not as silly an idea as you think.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Again not all, just some forge world are broken

Much like some GW.

I'll expect your support in my upcoming "Ban GW, Forge World Only!" thread.

Yeah sure

touche.

Still, you see the point, yes?

Nope, because the point you are trying to make falls appart really quickly.

You cant just pull the "let's ban GW! Forge world only!" Because 40k is a GW game. fW products are basically the exp. A more apt example would be if games workshop all of a sudden made units for 30k which forge world runs as a game, and we're crazy strong in 30k. Then I would be ok with a forge world only, no gw stuff for our Horus heresy games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Again I have no issue withFW in my games mostly because it's an all your eggs in one basket unit.

But you see, RAW states that FW is not optional. They are as legal as GW units in warhammer. You really dont even have to discuss using them outside of talking things over for the sake of others. Its like we started a game and I said " I dont like knights, dont use knights". Nothing "legal" about that request. GW needs to support FW more in the core rule book to get it to stick to people that RAW, it is not optional but legal, which it is, but its not apparent enough in writing. And I do, for the record think some FW models are OP. Most of those got fixed in the CA release. Fire Raptors are to good for the point cost.

Now of course im not a hard ass. If someone asked for me not to use FW outside of a tourney setting then I have lists to sub with. But I wouldnt play in a any tournaments that blanket banned FW for the above reasoning. Long story short. His statement is valid.

When GW puts forgeworld in their regular distribution channels I think that would really help. It would give LGS a reason to care about them, and have easier access to the models and especially rules.

Now that I think about it, despite all the years and scores of FW units I’ve played against, i have never actually seen a rulebook from FW with my own eyes. Not once that I can think of. The obscure nature of the rules is a major barrier.

Better yet, just roll the models from FW into the main GW books if you want them to really be considered part of the main game.

dosiere wrote:
When GW puts forgeworld in their regular distribution channels I think that would really help. It would give LGS a reason to care about them, and have easier access to the models and especially rules.

Now that I think about it, despite all the years and scores of FW units I’ve played against, i have never actually seen a rulebook from FW with my own eyes. Not once that I can think of. The obscure nature of the rules is a major barrier.

Better yet, just roll the models from FW into the main GW books if you want them to really be considered part of the main game.

Idk if that's ever going to happen. Forge world has always been a luxury pay to win item. I mean the last units I can think of that they ported over to GW was the baneblade which was horrible in 7th. And the Terminator patterens which really was just GW wanting to get in on the Horus heresy action. But there are not a lot of forge world made units that ever got made into GW units and I don't think there will be. Another really good example of a crazy strong forge world unit is the xyphon intercepter. This is crazy dumb for it's point cost and will decimate anything that has the fly keyword.

From what I remember when our club started to come together during 4th edition FW was hugely OP and under costed. As the years have gone along, they seem to have fixed that for the most part. These days I don't have an issue with any of the FW units or rules. If it's a legal unit then by all means bring it to the table.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

dosiere wrote:
When GW puts forgeworld in their regular distribution channels I think that would really help. It would give LGS a reason to care about them, and have easier access to the models and especially rules.

Now that I think about it, despite all the years and scores of FW units I’ve played against, i have never actually seen a rulebook from FW with my own eyes. Not once that I can think of. The obscure nature of the rules is a major barrier.

Better yet, just roll the models from FW into the main GW books if you want them to really be considered part of the main game.

Idk if that's ever going to happen. Forge world has always been a luxury pay to win item.

Expensive? Yes. Pay to win? No. The overwhelmingly vast majority of FW units are decidedly noncompetitive, and always have been. If you look at tournament results across the last 4 editions where FW is included, there is no evidence it has any major impact, especially for more than a few months. That said, for many units, particularly many infantry and characters, GW has matched or exceeded FW prices since at least 6th edition.

I mean the last units I can think of that they ported over to GW was the baneblade which was horrible in 7th.

The Baneblade was ported over in 2007, during 4th edition, and was made monstrously more powerful than it ever was under FW's rules though it did suck in 7E (along with pretty much anything IG).


The Hydras were similarly treated, going from 200pt FW units to 75pt squadronable GW Codex units that got to ignore skimmer saves to boot. Valkyries got better armor and more abilities and their cost halved when moved away from FW.
Pretty much every unit I can think of ported from FW to GW got a massive boost in the process. Lets also not forget units like the Exterminator Russ, Vendetta or Griffon, which have popped back and forth multiple times, or the Thudd Gun which was an old school RT/2E Imperial artillery unit that was brought back by FW in late 4E and then adapted by GW later as the Thunderfire Cannon. The Tau Pirhana and Tyranid Trygon and others also were FW before they were GW.

But there are not a lot of forge world made units that ever got made into GW units and I don't think there will be.

There is a reason for this. FW makes things that cannot be made profitably in plastic, or that the core design studio doesn't want to do or doesnt have time to do (like the HH stuff). If the core studio can and wants to do it, there is no reason for FW.

Another really good example of a crazy strong forge world unit is the xyphon intercepter. This is crazy dumb for it's point cost and will decimate anything that has the fly keyword.

So will a Vendetta for the same points, with a transport capacity and more wounds to boot. The Xiphon is, IIRC a 230pt unit. Neither are spectacularly popular in competitive arenas.

Not once in my time playing have I ever thought that FW needs a ban from anything.

As many have stated FW has some OP units but not every unit is OP. Have you seen the meta from the past editions? How many relied on FW to win major tournaments? Just because your snowflake list lost to a single FW model doesn't mean an all out ban of these models.

50% of my lists I make have some form of FW model being an actual rule tide to them or just having nice looking models (ie their wonderful PA).

We have a guy at our FLGS that hates FW in all forms put likes to spam the latest cheese and thinks that is okay.

It might help with acceptance if FW covered all factions evenly.

There are a ton of IOM units against every possible need but what... two rather underwhelming dark Eldar ones?

Chaos, Eldar and Tau do a little better, but it’s hard not to see FW as Codex: Yet More Imperial Options if you don’t play IOM or steal their stuff, like my GSC

I regularly use FW models in our play group and nobody has had any prob w them. they like how fluffy the units are and are not OP. Most times since they're a target priority getting shot at first may help divert forces enuff from my main contingent. so I guess as a distraction it might be OK.

but this is from someone whom will never play in a tournament that would ban certain units from an official source. if you couldn't bring your favorite model would you play?

BTW my FLGS and local GW store seem to not have a problem w my army, so it sucks thats the case for some people.

I have the official book from FW AND EVERY SINGLE PERSON USING FW MUST USE THE BOOK, otherwise you shouldn't play them since they're bullshitting and are too cheap to play the right way.

 Ascalam wrote:
It might help with acceptance if FW covered all factions evenly.

There are a ton of IOM units against every possible need but what... two rather underwhelming dark Eldar ones?

Chaos, Eldar and Tau do a little better, but it’s hard not to see FW as Codex: Yet More Imperial Options if you don’t play IOM or steal their stuff, like my GSC

Its a mirror of GW proper. The major sellers get more attention. IoM players make up the largest bulk of players (as evident by sales), then its chaos followed by eldar and tau. But the gulf between IoM and chaos seems to be getting smaller??? Well thats what I take from the increased attention chaos has been getting, with two new factions and CSM and Demon releases so close to each other. We may even be seeing a dark mech faction soon (which would be awesome). But the point is, what sells is what gets made. Its the same at FW as it is at GW. And the gulf widens because its a self repeating cycle. Outside of Deldar releases 5 years ago what have they gotten since? A updated codex. This is not a forge world issue.

Not JUST a FW issue, to be sure.

They could definitely offset that by supporting the factions GW doesn't though.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Baneblade was ported over in 2007, during 4th edition, and was made monstrously more powerful than it ever was under FW's rules though it did suck in 7E (along with pretty much anything IG).


The Hydras were similarly treated, going from 200pt FW units to 75pt squadronable GW Codex units that got to ignore skimmer saves to boot. Valkyries got better armor and more abilities and their cost halved when moved away from FW.

The Hydra didn't get to "ignore skimmer saves".
It got to ignore the cover saves granted to skimmers and bikes/jetbikes from moving flat out/turbo-boosting.

It might sound silly, but it's an important distinction to make I feel. It's like later on when FW did the "Auto-Targeting System" that allowed for their Hydra/Hydra Flak Batteries to ignore Supersonic and Jink saves. It was an incredibly specific thing especially in comparison to other things that just had "Ignores Cover".

Personally as a chaos player i own 2 units that i have to use FW rules for my greater blight stone and my chaos contempt or made out of the plastic kit. Neither are exactly game breakkng

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Baneblade was ported over in 2007, during 4th edition, and was made monstrously more powerful than it ever was under FW's rules though it did suck in 7E (along with pretty much anything IG).


The Hydras were similarly treated, going from 200pt FW units to 75pt squadronable GW Codex units that got to ignore skimmer saves to boot. Valkyries got better armor and more abilities and their cost halved when moved away from FW.

The Hydra didn't get to "ignore skimmer saves".
It got to ignore the cover saves granted to skimmers and bikes/jetbikes from moving flat out/turbo-boosting.

It might sound silly, but it's an important distinction to make I feel. It's like later on when FW did the "Auto-Targeting System" that allowed for their Hydra/Hydra Flak Batteries to ignore Supersonic and Jink saves. It was an incredibly specific thing especially in comparison to other things that just had "Ignores Cover".

I guess by "skimmer saves" I assumed it was understood I was referring to the save generated from moving flat out, mainly I was just emphasizing that GW dramatically enhanced the Hydra when porting it over not just in cost but in both availability and capability as well relative to its original FW incarnation.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Forge world has always been a luxury pay to win item.

More like "pay to have fun". I wouldn't be playing 40k, if I couldn't field my Krieg army, there's no other faction that appeals to me in the same way.

Why is this discussion still going on? I thought it had been settled years ago.

I've never thought that my army as a whole in any way is over powered. I certainly have a couple of units that are, but the majority of my army is not. Some choices were nerfed rather badly by the recent CA, so in all likelihood my army is better balanced now, than many mainstream factions. In 7th edition DKoK infantry was so severely overcosted, it made it harder to play well, not the other way around.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Again not all, just some forge world are broken

Guillimann, Dark Reapers and Shining spears are obviously paragon of balance eh?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I wouldn't mind playing against FW units... If anyone actually had a real copy of IA and not dome battlescribe screenshots.

I often find out after a game, whatever was too good to be true with their questionable rules usually is.

Do same thing as with GW codexes. No rules to show, no models. Nobody plays vs me without rules on hand for GW models either. Nobody plays without rules for FW models as well.

Battle scribe is not enough whether it's FW or GW. No rules, no model. You either put model out of the table or I pack up and don't play. And any tournament worth anything bans any model without rules at hand and not counting battlescribe print out. Whether it's FW or GW is irrelevant.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Another really good example of a crazy strong forge world unit is the xyphon intercepter. This is crazy dumb for it's point cost and will decimate anything that has the fly keyword.

So will a Vendetta for the same points, with a transport capacity and more wounds to boot. The Xiphon is, IIRC a 230pt unit. Neither are spectacularly popular in competitive arenas.

At the start of 8th, the Xiphon was one of, if not the most efficient Lascannon platforms available to a lot of space marine armies, but it was adjusted in Chapter Approved. It's still good, far from broken though.

Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides. So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

 Marmatag wrote:
Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides. So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

That's not always true.

I want to use my Tarantula Sentry Turrets and Rapier Laser Destroyer with my Cadians...but I also want to use my Vulture with twin Punishers that I got ages ago, so maybe some might see it that way no matter what?

 Marmatag wrote:
Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides. So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

That's a lot of true, but loaded words. Ultimately, the point is nothing from FW is really any more powerful than stuff from GW proper. You can find and replace every instance of Forgeworld/FW with the name of any codex in the game and have an equally true statement:

Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Grey Knights is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Grey Knights provides. So every discussion of GK should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want GK.

I'd like the competitive advantage that GKs provide. Where can I find it?

 Marmatag wrote:
Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides. So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

Quite the broad brush, there.

 Marmatag wrote:
Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides.

wait wat? You know this definitively...how?

I like being able to bring my DKoK army to events. I like running my Decimator and Nightwing and Heavy Mortars and Rapier Laser Destroyers. I like having the ability to use these in tournaments. I've run these things through many editions, and tournament legality heavily impacts what people will play even in pickup games.

I dont think I own any FW units that have ever been seen as particularly outstanding (except an upainted Eldar Scorpion which Ive never gotten around to painting or running in tournament). I forcefully advocate for FW's inclusion because I want to be able to play with all my 40k toys.

So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

which is entirely your own perception projected onto this conversation to allow you to conveniently fit it into into a neat little box for yourself.

 Marmatag wrote:
Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides. So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

Incorrect. Most people arguing for the use of Forgeworld are doing so because they want to use their existing miniatures collection, most of which were bought years before the 8th edition rules for them were printed. So every discussion of FW should be viewing a random mix of fluffy units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

 Marmatag wrote:
Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides. So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

Yeah, wanting to use a Telemon or Galatus dreadnought that don't even have rules is because I want a competitive advantage.

ah this is rearing its ugly head again... yay...

Anyone that thinks FW is "pay to win" is wrong.

its that simple, FW like GW is all over the place when it comes to balance, saying FW is pay to win is like saying GW is, because of Guilliman or Dark Reapers... its untrue and is easily proven to be untrue, they havent a leg to stand on.

 Marmatag wrote:
Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides. So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

Nope. Wrong. Broad sweeping generalizations often are. But lets turn that around, just for fun. So what you are saying is that its bad for people to look for a competitive advantage when making lists for tournaments? Or even private games where all players involved like crunchy games? But thats not even my point.

My point is I havent seen this much wrong in a post in a looong time. And this is dakka we are talking about. Its already been shown that forgeworld has yet to budge the meta (outside of one or two undercosted units early in 8th, which got nerfed in lightning speed, by games workshop standards of speed). It is true that Forgeworld started 8th with some horribly priced LoW choices. This was fixed and now they are all overcosted to an extreme. I toss this this up to 8th has been such a radical shitt in gameplay that anyone outside of the design team had a grasp. And even GW proper gets points wrong constantly. 15 points for a str 4 ap 2 dmg 1 flamer? Pass. If flamer prices were reasonable you may see less hordes. But flamers are overpriced to the point that they are not a wise choice except for units expected to eat charges.

And im sorry if I come off snarky. I make a rule not to be insulting or condescending on the internet.

Edit : My most used FW unit is the khardi. Because GW refuses to give CSM a drop pod model (which is horribly against the fluff). Its like if they refused to make rhinos for space marines. My favorite FW model is the Kytan. Which is overcosted and under performing than any other Khorne LoW. Awesome model. Love it. Im getting one strictly because it looks so great. Itll probably see very few actual games due to gak rules and price.

 Marmatag wrote:
Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides. So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

And we don't do that here for codex units?

last night I pulled out my FW index and 90% of players there had never actually seen it. I was asked all kinds of questions, but the biggest one was "how much?" £15 is cheap and I think that I'm the only one(locally) that actually has legit models not forgedworld.

Yes some stuff is powerful, most times not so much tho. FW isn't pay to win, it pay to have killer looking models that can be specific to an army. since they're resin, not simple to put together like plastic on sprue and more expensive it gets a stigma of OPness.

 Marmatag wrote:
Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides. So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

This is somewhat true, with some caveats.

FW units got nerfed to hell in CA, very few of them are worth the points investment anymore (888 points for the super Bloodthirster? obviously a lot of thought went into that point calculation). That being said, the two units I actually use managed to avoid the reaper's scythe as it were.

Chaos Storm Eagle Assault Gunship - I've wanted a flyer and a transport capacity of 20 since second edition, they gave it to me, I use it, I have two of them, my World Eaters are very happy.
Rapiers - for 82 points the Rapier Heavy Bolter is pretty amazing, however, it is severely limited by terrain, you end up on a cityscape map and they're basically relegated to locking down a lane for a couple turns.

 Marmatag wrote:
Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides. So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

Just to point out that anyone making this point is arguing from total ignorance and can be simply laughed out of the discussion. So every discussion of FW should simply ignore arguments this ridiculous.

 Marmatag wrote:
Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides. So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

Cite your sources. - Some people use it for their power, some for their options, some for their flavor.

Also; I checked your post history; you're trying to make competitive lists (which by their nature, utilize the best/strongest units//options in any given army set) - by your logic, we should advocate removing GW Codecii//entire armies, as people want "that competitive advantage" those books or armies provides.

You're going to counter with "But I play Grey Knights, they're weak!"; it's not about the army, it's about the argument.

Did the tournament organizers also poll whether other units should be banned from the tournament too, or just pick on FW?

I imagine most of the people that voted for a ban don't plan on using FW units, so why would they vote no if it isn't in their own best interest?

It's like voting if Baneblades or Dark Reapers should be banned. The majority probably won't be playing guard or eldar, and they would probably get banned if it were put to a vote.

Forge World is OP? Let's pretend it is for a second.

Is there some kind of special privilege club you have to belong to to access Forge World? Is their customer service office calling you to tell you, "Sorry, peasant, you aren't allowed this toy. Only our elite friends are allowed to buy this"?

No? Let me use a metaphor.

We decide to go to a sporting goods store to buy items to use as weapons in a duel.

You buy a baseball bat.

I buy a hunting spear.

You can't say it isn't fair, you just didn't purchase wisely.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Forge World is OP? Let's pretend it is for a second.

Is there some kind of special privilege club you have to belong to to access Forge World? Is their customer service office calling you to tell you, "Sorry, peasant, you aren't allowed this toy. Only our elite friends are allowed to buy this"?

No? Let me use a metaphor.

We decide to go to a sporting goods store to buy items to use as weapons in a duel.

You buy a baseball bat.

I buy a hunting spear.

You can't say it isn't fair, you just didn't purchase wisely.

I'm not certain if you are trolling or are being ironic.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
I'm not certain if you are trolling or are being ironic.

I'll keep it very simple, then.

Forge World models aren't OP, but some people think they are.

They aren't limited edition, they aren't restricted for purchase to one region, they aren't only given to special people with friends at GW. They're readily available and accessible to literally anyone with an address, internet access, money, a means to transfer said money, and a few days to wait for it to ship.

In other words, any moron in the modern world with the money to spend can buy a Forge World model.

And if you're on a budget, you can find people selling used models all day long.

It's not hard at all.

I have a public school American education, an average income, and a full-time job and I still managed to get my models. There's no reason anyone else can't do the same.

I could understand if the models were restricted to certain things, or extremely limited in number for a special one-time thing. But they aren't.

In truth, there's only a few reasons they're banned by (incompetent) tournament organizers

-They hate that someone can afford Forge World.
-They own the FLGS and can't stock them, so they don't want you using something they can't sell to other people.
-They're still living in 4th edition.
-They're too lazy to get anything that's not a Codex on the store shelf
-They're buttmad because someone is making a Space Marine army interesting

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Forge World is OP? Let's pretend it is for a second.

Is there some kind of special privilege club you have to belong to to access Forge World? Is their customer service office calling you to tell you, "Sorry, peasant, you aren't allowed this toy. Only our elite friends are allowed to buy this"?

No? Let me use a metaphor.

We decide to go to a sporting goods store to buy items to use as weapons in a duel.

You buy a baseball bat.

I buy a hunting spear.

You can't say it isn't fair, you just didn't purchase wisely.

But to see why FLGS/GW stores would ban FW imagine same scenario but a wild dude C appears up with a machine gun that they don't sell at the sporting goods store. So you bought the best weapon where you are having your battle but dude C went somewhere else and found a better weapon that you didn't know anything about (being new to the whole death brawl in a sporting goods store scene). That machine gun isn't on the wall, in the sporting goods catalog or in any pictures of weapons for sale at that sporting goods store.

Instead of by-standards flocking to buy that hunting spear they are now going to that specialty shop where dude C bought his machine gun. Hell if you live you and baseball bat dude probably will too.

No one cares if the secret shop also sells pillows, sling-shots and jelly beans. The sporting goods shop owner would be perfectly happy if their customers never knew that specialty machine gun shop ever existed.

Now if Forge world was willing to offer wholesale with cheap shipping (for US shops) those shop owners maybe willing to listen to the balance/fairness because they can make a buck or two. Even the GW brick and mortars would rather have you buy something through them than FW which they don't see cash from.

Throw in the FW recaster problem I can see why stores don't want FW.

I'm not sure why players don't want FW (it's really not that much more expensive than GW stuff and I'd agree with the other posters here that they have *some* broken units but GW is guilty of the same.) The only problem is that GW did come out and say they are not in the business of balancing FW stuff and that after the CA nerfs it's really in FWs court and given that FW didn't do any balancing I'm not sure how much we can bank on them doing the right/fair thing in the future.

bananathug wrote:
But to see why FLGS/GW stores would ban FW imagine same scenario...

In other words, like I was saying: Shop owner can't sell it.

That's not a tournament, it's a marketing push.

I've seen ONE place ban Forge World models. People stopped going to his tournaments. Now he allows them. He practically begs people to come in and play.

Because, let's face it- unless someone's playing DKoK, a good portion of their army CAN be purchased through GW. Sure, you can't buy the Spartan I put on the table, but you can get most of my army off the shelf.

By the logic that "He can't sell it so he shouldn't allow it", then I expect to see tournaments banning Sisters of Battle as well.

-They own the FLGS and can't stock them, so they don't want you using something they can't sell to other people.

This is why in most stores and 90% of the tournaments in Spain they ban Forgeworld.

And the "But then the judges/organizers will have twice the work to check if lists are correct and nodoby is doing crazy combos!" argument that is throw when a tournament isn't organized by a single store.

I think I'll need to fly to UK to be able to play my forgeworld stuff in a tournament

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

By the logic that "He can't sell it so he shouldn't allow it", then I expect to see tournaments banning Sisters of Battle as well.

In Spain some members of the community say that direct-only units should be banned aswell because it is unfair for the stores. They say "Is like having a restaurant and leeting people come with outside food". Is so infuriating.

 Galas wrote:
And the "But then the judges/organizers will have twice the work to check if lists are correct and nodoby is doing crazy combos!" argument that is throw when a tournament isn't organized by a single store.

If they have difficulty doing basic grade school math utilizing a book written in their language, then they aren't competent tournament organizers. I wouldn't trust this sort of people with a pre-peeled boiled egg, much less judging a tournament.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Galas wrote:
And the "But then the judges/organizers will have twice the work to check if lists are correct and nodoby is doing crazy combos!" argument that is throw when a tournament isn't organized by a single store.

If they have difficulty doing basic grade school math utilizing a book written in their language, then they aren't competent tournament organizers. I wouldn't trust this sort of people with a pre-peeled boiled egg, much less judging a tournament.

You tell them, I'm a nobody here Spain has a very special enviroment in relation with Warhammer. Is the land of the CAAC.

I'm just sad that I will not be able to use those beautifull Custodes Dreadnoughts when they come with their proper rules...

 Galas wrote:
You tell them, I'm a nobody here Spain has a very special enviroment in relation with Warhammer. Is the land of the CAAC.

You can tell them easier than I can. I only know enough Spanish to order a beer and get slapped by a woman.

You can tell them loud and clear if you host your own tournament and allow Forge World. See what happens. If people with Forge World models come out of the woodwork and pay in, then by all means- continue.

I'm not sure what it's like over there, but in the USA the dollar is pretty convincing.

"So if my models get banned which of yours do I get to ban?" is what I'd reply...

It's a silly slope to set off down. The most OP models right now are GW plastic kits, and my FW stuff is overcosted and sub-optimal. Seems like making a change to 8th to fix a 7th problem, or Primarch-users getting salty other armies have cool toys.

If all Forge World stuff is banned that *has* to include Space Marine vehicle doors, upgrade kits, fancy Dreadnoughts, transfers, shoulder pads, etc... just for consistency.

TFW you use the Codex Contemptor loadout but bought all the parts from Forge World in the first place

I've said this before when people brought up balance as a reason for banning FW, and I'll say it again: I'd be okay with banning Forgeworld units so long as they also banned Guilliman, Mortarion, Magnus, Celestine, Primaris Psykers, Imperial Guard Infantry Squads, Mortar Squads, Baneblades, Banehammers, Baneswords, Doomhammers, Hellhammers, Shadowswords, Stormlords, Stormswords, Manticores, Tempestus Scions, Tempestus Command Squads, Taurox Primes, Ogryn Bodyguards, Bullgryn, Eversor Assassins, Dark Reapers, Shining Spears, Spiritseers, Hive Tyrants, Genestealers, Tau Command Suits, and Ork Boyz.

Because if you're going to go and make arbitrary bans, you might as well take some of the actually degenerate gak out with it.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
"So if my models get banned which of yours do I get to ban?" is what I'd reply...

It's a silly slope to set off down. The most OP models right now are GW plastic kits, and my FW stuff is overcosted and sub-optimal. Seems like making a change to 8th to fix a 7th problem, or Primarch-users getting salty other armies have cool toys.

If all Forge World stuff is banned that *has* to include Space Marine vehicle doors, upgrade kits, fancy Dreadnoughts, transfers, shoulder pads, etc... just for consistency.

Yeah guess my mkiii upgrades wouldn't be allowed. Ban all models that are OP (even tho OP is relative)!
All this banning talk sounds like the people who want to ban cars due to drunk driving accidents or kitchen knives cuz they've been used in murders or other things.....

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
TFW you use the Codex Contemptor loadout but bought all the parts from Forge World in the first place

Chaos Marines are all Mark 4 with legion upgrade kits.

Your Havocs are Legion Destroyers with arm swaps and Kalibrax Autocannons and Ryza Lascannons.

Your Raptors are Mark V's.

Every Rhino, Predator, and Land Raider has the Legion doors.

Your bikes are all Legion Outriders.

At that point, the tournament is banning cosmetics and should be also banning any other third-party conversions.

Mk5 Raptors? Oh behave....

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mk5 Raptors? Oh behave....

Oh, I'm so naughty, daddy!

That Hellbrute might be an old actual Alpha Legion dreadnaught.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mk5 Raptors? Oh behave....

Oh, I'm so naughty, daddy!

That Hellbrute might be an old actual Alpha Legion dreadnaught.

"My sonic Dreadnought is a counts-as Reaper Cannon + ML Helbrute".
That's about as naughty as I can get as I refuse to play Emperors Children.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mk5 Raptors? Oh behave....

Oh, I'm so naughty, daddy!

That Hellbrute might be an old actual Alpha Legion dreadnaught.

"My sonic Dreadnought is a counts-as Reaper Cannon + ML Helbrute".
That's about as naughty as I can get as I refuse to play Emperors Children.

Oh you closet perfectionist you.

 Vaktathi wrote:
This applies just as much to anything from a codex, and by looking at tournament data from 6E, 7E, and 8E where FW is allowed, there's really no evidence that FW plays a strong role in this. When you look at top tournament tables in these editions, FW stuff is relatively rare and tends to only pop up for a few months before it gets nerfed (while codex stuff often went entire editions without fixing).

No evidence?

First, nice try mudding the waters with past two editions (that have no bearing at all on the issue of FW ban in 8th) especially seeing it was during an era where the dekurions were broken, not units that went into them (except for Tau and Eldar ones), and seeing FW units could rarely slot into these, they were not the big issue of these two editions. So, close but no cigar here.

Second, let's look at the FW units in 8th and this supposed ""lack of evidence"". What do we see? Oh, yes, offender #1, elysian drop spam, combining IG cheapness with Tempestus plasma access and deep strike, with price point showing the fact FW had no clue just how potent this combo is. Then, IG codex dropped, some clowns tried to make this cheese broken to the extent of 7th edition eldar by asking FW to grant the elysians access to all regimental doctrines. Sadly, the writer one-upped himself and his lack of clue five-fold by saying yes (!) and only massive outcry from other players telling FW what they just did led them to rescind this, but how anyone seeing this incident can then say FW has any clue about balance, is beyond me.

Then we have offender #2, malefic lord spam. Nuff said. How this alone doesn't constitute more than enough evidence on how "good" the addition of FW to the game is, I have no idea. QED.

But to make this list even worse, we then have offender #3, FW superheavies (that had to be blanked banned by GW from their tournaments by doubling their price in FAQ) that utterly destroyed any semblance of balance, and offender #4, Fire Raptor spam, on both loyal and chaos side, which you need to be pretending really hard you're blind not to notice. What a great record, eh?

Anyway, the point is - I like how people 'pretend' there is no problem with FW because they don't even bother to read FW rules, and they think everything is "fine" because they don't notice these models littering the tables everywhere. Well guess what, you don't notice them only because of comically expensive FW prices, bad material they are made of limiting attractiveness, and the fact they are only available in one place limiting supply (piracy notwithstanding). I am really not surprised tournament organizers who see the cherrypicked manure driven in from the whole country, concentrated, and dumped en masse on tables during their tournaments are tired of it and want to curtail it.

The problem is, FW tends to produce two kinds of units. Garbage (which you don't see on tournaments anyway), broken (that you don't want to see on tournaments as spam of it destroys balance faster than you can say '900 pounds a unit'), and the rare balanced FW unit are so rarely seen in a list (because of the price and the fact you can have plastic equivalent for a fraction of that) it really does make far more sense to blanket ban the lot than try to waste time to sift FW books for a tiny handful of units that you then would allow. Why bother?

What I don't get is the fact is that people get their pants twisted into pretzel at what is pretty justified and hard argued decision. No one bans your FW models from pickup games and casual tournaments. They are only banned in places where people DO spam cheese of the month the FW books overflow with. I suppose you're doing a service to this forum, though, everyone who says "FW is totes fine!" and presents zero arguments for it, can be safely completely disregarded in all future game balance discussions as they have as much of a clue about balance as elysian writer above

 Irbis wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
This applies just as much to anything from a codex, and by looking at tournament data from 6E, 7E, and 8E where FW is allowed, there's really no evidence that FW plays a strong role in this. When you look at top tournament tables in these editions, FW stuff is relatively rare and tends to only pop up for a few months before it gets nerfed (while codex stuff often went entire editions without fixing).

No evidence?

First, nice try mudding the waters with past two editions (that have no bearing at all on the issue of FW ban in 8th) especially seeing it was during an era where the dekurions were broken, not units that went into them (except for Tau and Eldar ones), and seeing FW units could rarely slot into these, they were not the big issue of these two editions. So, close but no cigar here.

Second, let's look at the FW units in 8th and this supposed ""lack of evidence"". What do we see? Oh, yes, offender #1, elysian drop spam, combining IG cheapness with Tempestus plasma access and deep strike, with price point showing the fact FW had no clue just how potent this combo is. Then, IG codex dropped, some clowns tried to make this cheese broken to the extent of 7th edition eldar by asking FW to grant the elysians access to all regimental doctrines. Sadly, the writer one-upped himself and his lack of clue five-fold by saying yes (!) and only massive outcry from other players telling FW what they just did led them to rescind this, but how anyone seeing this incident can then say FW has any clue about balance, is beyond me.

Then we have offender #2, malefic lord spam. Nuff said. How this alone doesn't constitute more than enough evidence on how "good" the addition of FW to the game is, I have no idea. QED.

But to make this list even worse, we then have offender #3, FW superheavies (that had to be blanked banned by GW from their tournaments by doubling their price in FAQ) that utterly destroyed any semblance of balance, and offender #4, Fire Raptor spam, on both loyal and chaos side, which you need to be pretending really hard you're blind not to notice. What a great record, eh?

Anyway, the point is - I like how people 'pretend' there is no problem with FW because they don't even bother to read FW rules, and they think everything is "fine" because they don't notice these models littering the tables everywhere. Well guess what, you don't notice them only because of comically expensive FW prices, bad material they are made of limiting attractiveness, and the fact they are only available in one place limiting supply (piracy notwithstanding). I am really not surprised tournament organizers who see the cherrypicked manure driven in from the whole country, concentrated, and dumped en masse on tables during their tournaments are tired of it and want to curtail it.

The problem is, FW tends to produce two kinds of units. Garbage (which you don't see on tournaments anyway), broken (that you don't want to see on tournaments as spam of it destroys balance faster than you can say '900 pounds a unit'), and the rare balanced FW unit are so rarely seen in a list (because of the price and the fact you can have plastic equivalent for a fraction of that) it really does make far more sense to blanket ban the lot than try to waste time to sift FW books for a tiny handful of units that you then would allow. Why bother?

What I don't get is the fact is that people get their pants twisted into pretzel at what is pretty justified and hard argued decision. No one bans your FW models from pickup games and casual tournaments. They are only banned in places where people DO spam cheese of the month the FW books overflow with. I suppose you're doing a service to this forum, though, everyone who says "FW is totes fine!" and presents zero arguments for it, can be safely completely disregarded in all future game balance discussions as they have as much of a clue about balance as elysian writer above

Just a cursory glance at the "imperium" section on the FW site gets us 447 selections, some of these are books, some weapon options etc. so take all that out, take out the multiple unit options (3 tank bundles for example) and we still have a lot more than the paltry two you have used as an example, so with a ton of options, 99% of which are fine, you claim all are worth banning, what kind of stupid argument is that?

you then claim that we have presented zero arguments, we have ten years worth of arguments to present that FW is fine, where is your proof that FW breaks the game, where is your proof that FW is pay to win and wins tourneys, post it immediately or you will be the one "disregarded in all future game balance discussions", money where you mouth is time, put up or shut up.

If 4 examples are enough to ban all of FW... shouldn't we ban GW too? They have more than 4 examples.

Personally I believe FW stuff should be rolled into normal Codexes, at least for factions that have small books (Like Custodes), and let GW do the balancing.

 Irbis wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
This applies just as much to anything from a codex, and by looking at tournament data from 6E, 7E, and 8E where FW is allowed, there's really no evidence that FW plays a strong role in this. When you look at top tournament tables in these editions, FW stuff is relatively rare and tends to only pop up for a few months before it gets nerfed (while codex stuff often went entire editions without fixing).

No evidence?

First, nice try mudding the waters with past two editions (that have no bearing at all on the issue of FW ban in 8th)

People consistently refer to previous editions, and it helps us establish a pattern. This game is decades old, these issues span many editions. Attempting to wave that off is silly.

especially seeing it was during an era where the dekurions were broken, not units that went into them (except for Tau and Eldar ones),

Cute deflection..."It was only X that was broken...except A and B and C...."

and seeing FW units could rarely slot into these, they were not the big issue of these two editions. So, close but no cigar here.

Some could however (particularly things like vehicle variants), and if they were supposedly so powerful then one would think people would find ways to fit them into armies somehow. Either way, there was plenty of time in 7E before the rise of formations and decurions and scatterbikes overran the game, and FW didn't reign supreme there, nor in the nearly otherwise identical 6E.

Second, let's look at the FW units in 8th and this supposed ""lack of evidence"". What do we see? Oh, yes, offender #1, elysian drop spam, combining IG cheapness with Tempestus plasma access and deep strike, with price point showing the fact FW had no clue just how potent this combo is.

And was it any more powerful than what you could make with just the index or codex...? Not really. Does it work anywhere near as well now? No.

Then, IG codex dropped, some clowns tried to make this cheese broken to the extent of 7th edition eldar by asking FW to grant the elysians access to all regimental doctrines. Sadly, the writer one-upped himself and his lack of clue five-fold by saying yes (!) and only massive outcry rfom other players telling FW what they just did led them to rescind this, but how anyone seeing this incident can then say FW has any clue about balance, is beyond me.

You're taking a rather isolated issue taking place within a total reboot of army design and another subsequent major update, something that took place over a very short period of time (*especially* with regards to how long such inconsistency issues between stuff persisted in previous editions of 40k, 5E went through over two years of different armies having different costs and rules for droppods with GW initially demanding everything play as its written in the codex then flipping two years later) and expanding it to be a blanket condemnation of everything FW does. Errors like that happen. They suck, they're dumb, but they at least get fixed with FW stuff that's overpowered. You look other game systems, issues like that arise under similar conditions, and when you look at GW, they're not so great at addressing that stuff as quickly. Not so worried about that.

Then we have offender #2, malefic lord spam. Nuff said. How this alone doesn't constitute more than enough evidence on how "good" the addition of FW to the game is, I have no idea. QED.

Again, if you're cherry picking a couple of instances that lasted less than 6 months in the midst of total rules reboot, which have been rectified for a couple of months now already, ok, you're making my point for me.

Which, again was not what you're trying to make it out to be, lets re-examine it however.

Vaktathi wrote:When you look at top tournament tables in these editions, FW stuff is relatively rare and tends to only pop up for a few months before it gets nerfed

Seems we're pretty square on so far here. There was a rare outlier, it popped up for a few months and got nerfed.

But to make this list even worse, we then have offender #3, FW superheavies (that had to be blanked banned by GW from their tournaments by doubling their price in FAQ) that utterly destroyed any semblance of balance

The ones tons of people are bemoaning being ridiculously overcosted now, and that totally aren't like the ones in the IG codex? Shadowsword anyone? Or, Emperor forbid...Mortarion and Magnus?

and offender #4, Fire Raptor spam, on both loyal and chaos side, which you need to be pretending really hard you're blind not to notice. What a great record, eh?

You get to blame GW for that one, it's their Chapter Approved that took 60pts off. FW priced it at 250.

Anyway, the point is - I like how people 'pretend' there is no problem with FW because they don't even bother to read FW rules, and they think everything is "fine" because they don't notice these models littering the tables everywhere.

No, you're trying to shadowbox a strongman that doesn't really exist.

FW isn't perfect. FW does mess up sometimes. The point people have been making is that, relative to the number of issues with Codex stuff, they're relatively few, you have to really cherrypick 'em, they tend to get addressed quickly (and historically much faster than Codex issues). Most are in fact already fixed, and when we look at 8E tournaments as a whole, we basically got some Elysian sideshow stuff that seems to do about as well as the normal Guard stuff and the Malefic Lords which has since been nerfed into oblivion, and really was more a symptom of Smite being an issue than anything else. Yes, at the top tiers you're going to primarily see only the cherry picked stuff, but that applies to everything, and as a proportion of stuff available FW does not appear to be a heavy favorite, while at the same time lots of people attend large events and tournaments with no intention or hope of getting to the top tables and they play all sorts of armies and bring subpar units.

Well guess what, you don't notice them only because of comically expensive FW prices, bad material they are made of limiting attractiveness, and the fact they are only available in one place limiting supply (piracy notwithstanding). I am really not surprised tournament organizers who see the cherrypicked manure driven in from the whole country, concentrated, and dumped en masse on tables during their tournaments are tired of it and want to curtail it.

And you don't get the exact same thing with non-FW stuff? Lets acknowledge that the only thing we're debating here is a sales channel a model and its rules is delivered by, there's no more distinction than that, and certainly no systemic pattern of greater imbalance or outrageous issues than with Codex stuff that would merit such attention.

The problem is, FW tends to produce two kinds of units. Garbage (which you don't see on tournaments anyway), broken (that you don't want to see on tournaments as spam of it destroys balance faster than you can say '900 pounds a unit'), and the rare balanced FW unit are so rarely seen in a list (because of the price and the fact you can have plastic equivalent for a fraction of that) it really does make far more sense to blanket ban the lot than try to waste time to sift FW books for a tiny handful of units that you then would allow. Why bother?

Because, again, outside of a couple of examples that were relatively quickly fixed, there appears to be no major systemic issue with FW stuff that adds more headache than it's worth except for the people that do nothing but overfocus on just those things.

What I don't get is the fact is that people get their pants twisted into pretzel at what is pretty justified and hard argued decision. No one bans your FW models from pickup games and casual tournaments.

Nobody is saying that, however at the same time, lets be real, what large events dictate filters down to these smaller events and to pickup expectations. In many places, the big tournament rules are the rules by which pretty much all games take place, just the nature of many communities.

They are only banned in places where people DO spam cheese of the month the FW books overflow with.

which happen to be the places where that's done with everything, FW or no...so what makes FW special...?

I suppose you're doing a service to this forum, though, everyone who says "FW is totes fine!" and presents zero arguments for it, can be safely completely disregarded in all future game balance discussions as they have as much of a clue about balance as elysian writer above

After an argument that consisted basically of cherrypicking a couple of things that haven't been issues for a couple of months now, while simultaneously declaring anything in the past to be irrelevant when multiple editions worth of events show no major issues with FW and then claiming that nobody is presenting evidence, and declaring yourself to be correct in shadowboxing a concept of "FW is totes fine" personified as "FW is perfect", I guess I can see where that sort of logic would deliver you to such a conclusion.

That doesn't make it a sound conclusion however.

Now I'll say, Ibris, you have a horrible way to debate. You are always so condescending, despising other people arguments more than discussing them.

At least superficially, you present yourself as possessing the absolute truth constantly.

I'll agree thought that FW units are in a limbo. Its obvious GW don't really want to balance them, and is obvious FW isn't gonna do it. So we have an anual CA to touch them. Thats not enough when the regular GW units receive balance changes in Codex's, FAQ's, etc...

If the bi-annual big GW FAQ's actually touch FW stuff I'll change my mind.

dosiere wrote:
The obscure nature of the rules is a major barrier.

What is this, the early 1990s? Just buy the book and the rules are yours! Calling them obscure is just about the same as me calling Eldar obscure because I didn't bother to buy their codex.

Marmatag wrote:Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides. So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

Today I learned my auto-cannon Chimeras and Stygis Vanquishers are competitive.

fe40k wrote:Codecii.

Codices.

 Infantryman wrote:

Marmatag wrote:Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides. So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

Today I learned my auto-cannon Chimeras and Stygis Vanquishers are competitive.

Oh my god. My Corsairs are paying ten points per model for Guardians with no Battle Focus and weaker Leadership because they're sneaking incredibly overpowered stuff into the game disguised as complete s***.

 Infantryman wrote:

dosiere wrote:
The obscure nature of the rules is a major barrier.

What is this, the early 1990s? Just buy the book and the rules are yours! Calling them obscure is just about the same as me calling Eldar obscure because I didn't bother to buy their codex.

Hell, no one who doesn't actually play Tyranids can tell what any of their crap does, so we should ban them too.

 Fafnir wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:

dosiere wrote:
The obscure nature of the rules is a major barrier.

What is this, the early 1990s? Just buy the book and the rules are yours! Calling them obscure is just about the same as me calling Eldar obscure because I didn't bother to buy their codex.

Hell, no one who doesn't actually play Tyranids can tell what any of their crap does, so we should ban them too.

Yep - can't be lettin' 'em get one up on me! Also, I haven't touched a SM codex since 2010, so that's right on out too.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:

Marmatag wrote:Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides. So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

Today I learned my auto-cannon Chimeras and Stygis Vanquishers are competitive.

Oh my god. My Corsairs are paying ten points per model for Guardians with no Battle Focus and weaker Leadership because they're sneaking incredibly overpowered stuff into the game disguised as complete s***.

I dunno man.

My Stormhammer superheavy tanks with a 1d6 main gun (the only Baneblade variant to shoot fewer times than some Russes with its main gun) and the old, crappy Steel Behemoth rule (that doesn't remove the -1 penalty for moving and shooting!) are really sweeping tournaments.

I mean, I went 4-4 at NOVA with 3 of them. Obviously heinously OP, and we should all be limiting ourselves to reasonable GW superheavies like Magnus, Mortarion, and Shadowswords.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:

Marmatag wrote:Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides. So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

Today I learned my auto-cannon Chimeras and Stygis Vanquishers are competitive.

Oh my god. My Corsairs are paying ten points per model for Guardians with no Battle Focus and weaker Leadership because they're sneaking incredibly overpowered stuff into the game disguised as complete s***.

I dunno man.

My Stormhammer superheavy tanks with a 1d6 main gun (the only Baneblade variant to shoot fewer times than some Russes with its main gun) and the old, crappy Steel Behemoth rule (that doesn't remove the -1 penalty for moving and shooting!) are really sweeping tournaments.

I mean, I went 4-4 at NOVA with 3 of them. Obviously heinously OP, and we should all be limiting ourselves to reasonable GW superheavies like Magnus, Mortarion, and Shadowswords.

I've worked it out - if I tank two Detachments based around Trojans, I basically have the game won before dice are even rolled.

Always loved FW and always will.
#FWModelsMatter

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wow, this again.

You'd think after allowing Forge World did not utterly overthrow the entire tournament scene and bring it crumbling to the ground, you'd think people would stop claiming that allowing Forge World would overthrow the entire tournament scene and bring it crumbling to the ground.

"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"

Lol, stealing this as my new sig

FW does have (or had, as the case may be) a handful of overpowered units. Before they were nerfed I took a couple of earthshaker platforms to a tourney because they were cheaper than a basilisk, could shoot with an enemy within 1 inch, and didn't degrade. I admit it was broken. Now? Not so much. The pendulum swung hard.

In that tourney I got my butt kicked by Conscript/commissar spam. I know that was also nerfed. No one is perfect. holding out a few flaws isn't proving a rule.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:

If GW isn’t willing to pull FW directly under its own umbrella - sell it on their site instead of as if it were a seperate entity, I see banning continuing and being justified.

w...why? What difference does the website make to the game? Its still a GW domain, run by GW employees from GW HQ in Nottingham...it's just a separate sales channel.

it is just not the the seperate websites, there are no actual connections to FW even in GWs fysical shops.
they are 2 completely seperated companys as it currently stand, united only by adds in white dwarf.

if FW is ever to be publicly accepted as part of GW, they need to merge. that means FW products beeing sold in GW shops + their site and FW units beeing included in the GW codex.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:

If GW isn’t willing to pull FW directly under its own umbrella - sell it on their site instead of as if it were a seperate entity, I see banning continuing and being justified.

w...why? What difference does the website make to the game? Its still a GW domain, run by GW employees from GW HQ in Nottingham...it's just a separate sales channel.

it is just not the the seperate websites, there are no actual connections to FW even in GWs fysical shops.
they are 2 completely seperated companys as it currently stand, united only by adds in white dwarf.

if FW is ever to be publicly accepted as part of GW, they need to merge. that means FW products beeing sold in GW shops + their site and FW units beeing included in the GW codex.

I certainly wouldn't oppose that, but Games Workshop, as a corporate entity, for whatever reasons (maybe the FW people want it that way? Maybe GW doesn't want the appearance of higher costs or limited availability to offset/confuse new people? Who knows?) has chosen to keep the FW studio as a distinct sales channel.

That said, FW's existence is no secret (30k alone is more popular than most other tabletop miniatures games) the rules can be bought online like any other book, and is pirated as much as any other GW publications are, and if you can buy something off Amazon, Ebay, the War Store, or from Games Workshop's own site, you can buy it just as easily from Forgeworld. Many units and models have shifted back and forth more than once (e.g. the IG Griffon, started as a Codex unit in 2E, went to FW in late 3E, back to a Codex unit in 5E, and back to FW again with 6E). It's largely just appearances, the perception of separation, that causes people to treat FW as something distinctly different as a gameplay element rather than any actual real distinction being made in the rules, background, writers intentions or corporate ownership (aside from either "nobody in the main studio could devote time to it or "we can't make it profitably work in plastic") considering one to exist.

FW is a division of GW. There is no doubt about it. You can look it up as a part of public records. However, GW has traditionally kept it at arms length. This is no different than Campbell's Soups and Dole fruits. They are each part of the same company but each does its own thing regarding marketing and sales.

 Vaktathi wrote:
[. Many units and models have shifted back and forth more than once (e.g. the IG Griffon, started as a Codex unit in 2E, went to FW in late 3E, back to a Codex unit in 5E, and back to FW again with 6E). It's largely just appearances, the perception of separation, that causes people to treat FW as something distinctly different as a gameplay element rather than any actual real distinction being made in the rules.

I had two Griffins I purchased when I first started playing back in 2000. They were the metal/plastic hybrid GW kits. A number of years later someone claimed I was using Griffons "to win" because of their slightly OP FW rules, and that I wasn't even using an "official" model. Apparently they didn't know about Griffons being a GW box kit originally. I know that the FW rules were overpowered a bit, but I think the perception of it was worse than it was.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
FW is a division of GW. There is no doubt about it. You can look it up as a part of public records. However, GW has traditionally kept it at arms length. This is no different than Campbell's Soups and Dole fruits. They are each part of the same company but each does its own thing regarding marketing and sales.

GW and FW are one and the same company. FW is not a division of GW, FW doesn't even legally exist. FW is just the name of a website run by GW to sell more niche miniatures.

That said, I think we should ban all miniatures. Evidently, GW has no idea how to balance, so we can't endanger balance by allowing their miniatures at tournaments. Tournament games should now be settled by the players without the intervention of miniatures. Players will now be able to defeat one another through Greco-Roman wrestling. Use of external weapons not allowed. Going naked and slicking your body up with oil is optional but recommended for the sake of historical accuracy (aka the fluff) and balance.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
FW is a division of GW. There is no doubt about it. You can look it up as a part of public records. However, GW has traditionally kept it at arms length. This is no different than Campbell's Soups and Dole fruits. They are each part of the same company but each does its own thing regarding marketing and sales.

Must be real awkward having shops within feet of one another inside Warhammer World...

Side note, is Teenabot 5000 ever going to reply to this thread or has "she" just made this to funnel people to "her" blog?

 cuda1179 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
[. Many units and models have shifted back and forth more than once (e.g. the IG Griffon, started as a Codex unit in 2E, went to FW in late 3E, back to a Codex unit in 5E, and back to FW again with 6E). It's largely just appearances, the perception of separation, that causes people to treat FW as something distinctly different as a gameplay element rather than any actual real distinction being made in the rules.

I had two Griffins I purchased when I first started playing back in 2000. They were the metal/plastic hybrid GW kits. A number of years later someone claimed I was using Griffons "to win" because of their slightly OP FW rules, and that I wasn't even using an "official" model. Apparently they didn't know about Griffons being a GW box kit originally. I know that the FW rules were overpowered a bit, but I think the perception of it was worse than it was.

I had someone say that I was running a trio of Tarantula Sentry Guns with my Guard because the rules were OP...

They're Heavy Bolter Tarantulas, mind you.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I had two Griffins I purchased when I first started playing back in 2000. They were the metal/plastic hybrid GW kits. A number of years later someone claimed I was using Griffons "to win" because of their slightly OP FW rules, and that I wasn't even using an "official" model. Apparently they didn't know about Griffons being a GW box kit originally. I know that the FW rules were overpowered a bit, but I think the perception of it was worse than it was.

Whatever happened to Griffons, anyways? Not in FW, not in Codex. Where they in 7th?

 Kanluwen wrote:


They're Heavy Bolter Tarantulas, mind you.

They any good? They have cool models but I never could figure why one would field a stationary item like that.

 Infantryman wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I had two Griffins I purchased when I first started playing back in 2000. They were the metal/plastic hybrid GW kits. A number of years later someone claimed I was using Griffons "to win" because of their slightly OP FW rules, and that I wasn't even using an "official" model. Apparently they didn't know about Griffons being a GW box kit originally. I know that the FW rules were overpowered a bit, but I think the perception of it was worse than it was.

Whatever happened to Griffons, anyways? Not in FW, not in Codex. Where they in 7th?

They were in FW for 7th, but since they've been discontinued for some time...I didn't expect to see them come back.

 Kanluwen wrote:


They're Heavy Bolter Tarantulas, mind you.

They any good? They have cool models but I never could figure why one would field a stationary item like that.

They're cheap ways to flesh out a FOC at low points without being a dick. They're also kind of fluffy for a regiment that's specialized in cityfights and things of that nature, since Tarantulas can be kicked out of Valkyries and 'seeded' in advance of the various firebases and the like.

I enjoyed mine. Once I figured out they were <Regiment> though, it got a bit funnier since they could be Cadian Tarantulas and get rerolling Hit Rolls of 1s if they stayed stationary...which, since they're Immobile, is pretty easy to achieve.

Ah, didn't know about the Valk bit - might pick a couple of these up...

 Infantryman wrote:
Ah, didn't know about the Valk bit - might pick a couple of these up...

Bear in mind that's fluff related stuff...no rules related to it at the moment.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
That said, I think we should ban all miniatures. Evidently, GW has no idea how to balance, so we can't endanger balance by allowing their miniatures at tournaments. Tournament games should now be settled by the players without the intervention of miniatures. Players will now be able to defeat one another through Greco-Roman wrestling. Use of external weapons not allowed. Going naked and slicking your body up with oil is optional but recommended for the sake of historical accuracy (aka the fluff) and balance.

You are joking but 8th ed actually is moving game toward where actual models on table is less and less important so apart from wrestling thing things are already headed that way!