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"So if my models get banned which of yours do I get to ban?" is what I'd reply...

It's a silly slope to set off down. The most OP models right now are GW plastic kits, and my FW stuff is overcosted and sub-optimal. Seems like making a change to 8th to fix a 7th problem, or Primarch-users getting salty other armies have cool toys.

If all Forge World stuff is banned that *has* to include Space Marine vehicle doors, upgrade kits, fancy Dreadnoughts, transfers, shoulder pads, etc... just for consistency.

TFW you use the Codex Contemptor loadout but bought all the parts from Forge World in the first place

I've said this before when people brought up balance as a reason for banning FW, and I'll say it again: I'd be okay with banning Forgeworld units so long as they also banned Guilliman, Mortarion, Magnus, Celestine, Primaris Psykers, Imperial Guard Infantry Squads, Mortar Squads, Baneblades, Banehammers, Baneswords, Doomhammers, Hellhammers, Shadowswords, Stormlords, Stormswords, Manticores, Tempestus Scions, Tempestus Command Squads, Taurox Primes, Ogryn Bodyguards, Bullgryn, Eversor Assassins, Dark Reapers, Shining Spears, Spiritseers, Hive Tyrants, Genestealers, Tau Command Suits, and Ork Boyz.

Because if you're going to go and make arbitrary bans, you might as well take some of the actually degenerate gak out with it.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
"So if my models get banned which of yours do I get to ban?" is what I'd reply...

It's a silly slope to set off down. The most OP models right now are GW plastic kits, and my FW stuff is overcosted and sub-optimal. Seems like making a change to 8th to fix a 7th problem, or Primarch-users getting salty other armies have cool toys.

If all Forge World stuff is banned that *has* to include Space Marine vehicle doors, upgrade kits, fancy Dreadnoughts, transfers, shoulder pads, etc... just for consistency.

Yeah guess my mkiii upgrades wouldn't be allowed. Ban all models that are OP (even tho OP is relative)!
All this banning talk sounds like the people who want to ban cars due to drunk driving accidents or kitchen knives cuz they've been used in murders or other things.....

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
TFW you use the Codex Contemptor loadout but bought all the parts from Forge World in the first place

Chaos Marines are all Mark 4 with legion upgrade kits.

Your Havocs are Legion Destroyers with arm swaps and Kalibrax Autocannons and Ryza Lascannons.

Your Raptors are Mark V's.

Every Rhino, Predator, and Land Raider has the Legion doors.

Your bikes are all Legion Outriders.

At that point, the tournament is banning cosmetics and should be also banning any other third-party conversions.

Mk5 Raptors? Oh behave....

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mk5 Raptors? Oh behave....

Oh, I'm so naughty, daddy!

That Hellbrute might be an old actual Alpha Legion dreadnaught.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mk5 Raptors? Oh behave....

Oh, I'm so naughty, daddy!

That Hellbrute might be an old actual Alpha Legion dreadnaught.

"My sonic Dreadnought is a counts-as Reaper Cannon + ML Helbrute".
That's about as naughty as I can get as I refuse to play Emperors Children.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mk5 Raptors? Oh behave....

Oh, I'm so naughty, daddy!

That Hellbrute might be an old actual Alpha Legion dreadnaught.

"My sonic Dreadnought is a counts-as Reaper Cannon + ML Helbrute".
That's about as naughty as I can get as I refuse to play Emperors Children.

Oh you closet perfectionist you.

 Vaktathi wrote:
This applies just as much to anything from a codex, and by looking at tournament data from 6E, 7E, and 8E where FW is allowed, there's really no evidence that FW plays a strong role in this. When you look at top tournament tables in these editions, FW stuff is relatively rare and tends to only pop up for a few months before it gets nerfed (while codex stuff often went entire editions without fixing).

No evidence?

First, nice try mudding the waters with past two editions (that have no bearing at all on the issue of FW ban in 8th) especially seeing it was during an era where the dekurions were broken, not units that went into them (except for Tau and Eldar ones), and seeing FW units could rarely slot into these, they were not the big issue of these two editions. So, close but no cigar here.

Second, let's look at the FW units in 8th and this supposed ""lack of evidence"". What do we see? Oh, yes, offender #1, elysian drop spam, combining IG cheapness with Tempestus plasma access and deep strike, with price point showing the fact FW had no clue just how potent this combo is. Then, IG codex dropped, some clowns tried to make this cheese broken to the extent of 7th edition eldar by asking FW to grant the elysians access to all regimental doctrines. Sadly, the writer one-upped himself and his lack of clue five-fold by saying yes (!) and only massive outcry from other players telling FW what they just did led them to rescind this, but how anyone seeing this incident can then say FW has any clue about balance, is beyond me.

Then we have offender #2, malefic lord spam. Nuff said. How this alone doesn't constitute more than enough evidence on how "good" the addition of FW to the game is, I have no idea. QED.

But to make this list even worse, we then have offender #3, FW superheavies (that had to be blanked banned by GW from their tournaments by doubling their price in FAQ) that utterly destroyed any semblance of balance, and offender #4, Fire Raptor spam, on both loyal and chaos side, which you need to be pretending really hard you're blind not to notice. What a great record, eh?

Anyway, the point is - I like how people 'pretend' there is no problem with FW because they don't even bother to read FW rules, and they think everything is "fine" because they don't notice these models littering the tables everywhere. Well guess what, you don't notice them only because of comically expensive FW prices, bad material they are made of limiting attractiveness, and the fact they are only available in one place limiting supply (piracy notwithstanding). I am really not surprised tournament organizers who see the cherrypicked manure driven in from the whole country, concentrated, and dumped en masse on tables during their tournaments are tired of it and want to curtail it.

The problem is, FW tends to produce two kinds of units. Garbage (which you don't see on tournaments anyway), broken (that you don't want to see on tournaments as spam of it destroys balance faster than you can say '900 pounds a unit'), and the rare balanced FW unit are so rarely seen in a list (because of the price and the fact you can have plastic equivalent for a fraction of that) it really does make far more sense to blanket ban the lot than try to waste time to sift FW books for a tiny handful of units that you then would allow. Why bother?

What I don't get is the fact is that people get their pants twisted into pretzel at what is pretty justified and hard argued decision. No one bans your FW models from pickup games and casual tournaments. They are only banned in places where people DO spam cheese of the month the FW books overflow with. I suppose you're doing a service to this forum, though, everyone who says "FW is totes fine!" and presents zero arguments for it, can be safely completely disregarded in all future game balance discussions as they have as much of a clue about balance as elysian writer above

 Irbis wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
This applies just as much to anything from a codex, and by looking at tournament data from 6E, 7E, and 8E where FW is allowed, there's really no evidence that FW plays a strong role in this. When you look at top tournament tables in these editions, FW stuff is relatively rare and tends to only pop up for a few months before it gets nerfed (while codex stuff often went entire editions without fixing).

No evidence?

First, nice try mudding the waters with past two editions (that have no bearing at all on the issue of FW ban in 8th) especially seeing it was during an era where the dekurions were broken, not units that went into them (except for Tau and Eldar ones), and seeing FW units could rarely slot into these, they were not the big issue of these two editions. So, close but no cigar here.

Second, let's look at the FW units in 8th and this supposed ""lack of evidence"". What do we see? Oh, yes, offender #1, elysian drop spam, combining IG cheapness with Tempestus plasma access and deep strike, with price point showing the fact FW had no clue just how potent this combo is. Then, IG codex dropped, some clowns tried to make this cheese broken to the extent of 7th edition eldar by asking FW to grant the elysians access to all regimental doctrines. Sadly, the writer one-upped himself and his lack of clue five-fold by saying yes (!) and only massive outcry from other players telling FW what they just did led them to rescind this, but how anyone seeing this incident can then say FW has any clue about balance, is beyond me.

Then we have offender #2, malefic lord spam. Nuff said. How this alone doesn't constitute more than enough evidence on how "good" the addition of FW to the game is, I have no idea. QED.

But to make this list even worse, we then have offender #3, FW superheavies (that had to be blanked banned by GW from their tournaments by doubling their price in FAQ) that utterly destroyed any semblance of balance, and offender #4, Fire Raptor spam, on both loyal and chaos side, which you need to be pretending really hard you're blind not to notice. What a great record, eh?

Anyway, the point is - I like how people 'pretend' there is no problem with FW because they don't even bother to read FW rules, and they think everything is "fine" because they don't notice these models littering the tables everywhere. Well guess what, you don't notice them only because of comically expensive FW prices, bad material they are made of limiting attractiveness, and the fact they are only available in one place limiting supply (piracy notwithstanding). I am really not surprised tournament organizers who see the cherrypicked manure driven in from the whole country, concentrated, and dumped en masse on tables during their tournaments are tired of it and want to curtail it.

The problem is, FW tends to produce two kinds of units. Garbage (which you don't see on tournaments anyway), broken (that you don't want to see on tournaments as spam of it destroys balance faster than you can say '900 pounds a unit'), and the rare balanced FW unit are so rarely seen in a list (because of the price and the fact you can have plastic equivalent for a fraction of that) it really does make far more sense to blanket ban the lot than try to waste time to sift FW books for a tiny handful of units that you then would allow. Why bother?

What I don't get is the fact is that people get their pants twisted into pretzel at what is pretty justified and hard argued decision. No one bans your FW models from pickup games and casual tournaments. They are only banned in places where people DO spam cheese of the month the FW books overflow with. I suppose you're doing a service to this forum, though, everyone who says "FW is totes fine!" and presents zero arguments for it, can be safely completely disregarded in all future game balance discussions as they have as much of a clue about balance as elysian writer above

Just a cursory glance at the "imperium" section on the FW site gets us 447 selections, some of these are books, some weapon options etc. so take all that out, take out the multiple unit options (3 tank bundles for example) and we still have a lot more than the paltry two you have used as an example, so with a ton of options, 99% of which are fine, you claim all are worth banning, what kind of stupid argument is that?

you then claim that we have presented zero arguments, we have ten years worth of arguments to present that FW is fine, where is your proof that FW breaks the game, where is your proof that FW is pay to win and wins tourneys, post it immediately or you will be the one "disregarded in all future game balance discussions", money where you mouth is time, put up or shut up.

If 4 examples are enough to ban all of FW... shouldn't we ban GW too? They have more than 4 examples.

Personally I believe FW stuff should be rolled into normal Codexes, at least for factions that have small books (Like Custodes), and let GW do the balancing.

 Irbis wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
This applies just as much to anything from a codex, and by looking at tournament data from 6E, 7E, and 8E where FW is allowed, there's really no evidence that FW plays a strong role in this. When you look at top tournament tables in these editions, FW stuff is relatively rare and tends to only pop up for a few months before it gets nerfed (while codex stuff often went entire editions without fixing).

No evidence?

First, nice try mudding the waters with past two editions (that have no bearing at all on the issue of FW ban in 8th)

People consistently refer to previous editions, and it helps us establish a pattern. This game is decades old, these issues span many editions. Attempting to wave that off is silly.

especially seeing it was during an era where the dekurions were broken, not units that went into them (except for Tau and Eldar ones),

Cute deflection..."It was only X that was broken...except A and B and C...."

and seeing FW units could rarely slot into these, they were not the big issue of these two editions. So, close but no cigar here.

Some could however (particularly things like vehicle variants), and if they were supposedly so powerful then one would think people would find ways to fit them into armies somehow. Either way, there was plenty of time in 7E before the rise of formations and decurions and scatterbikes overran the game, and FW didn't reign supreme there, nor in the nearly otherwise identical 6E.

Second, let's look at the FW units in 8th and this supposed ""lack of evidence"". What do we see? Oh, yes, offender #1, elysian drop spam, combining IG cheapness with Tempestus plasma access and deep strike, with price point showing the fact FW had no clue just how potent this combo is.

And was it any more powerful than what you could make with just the index or codex...? Not really. Does it work anywhere near as well now? No.

Then, IG codex dropped, some clowns tried to make this cheese broken to the extent of 7th edition eldar by asking FW to grant the elysians access to all regimental doctrines. Sadly, the writer one-upped himself and his lack of clue five-fold by saying yes (!) and only massive outcry rfom other players telling FW what they just did led them to rescind this, but how anyone seeing this incident can then say FW has any clue about balance, is beyond me.

You're taking a rather isolated issue taking place within a total reboot of army design and another subsequent major update, something that took place over a very short period of time (*especially* with regards to how long such inconsistency issues between stuff persisted in previous editions of 40k, 5E went through over two years of different armies having different costs and rules for droppods with GW initially demanding everything play as its written in the codex then flipping two years later) and expanding it to be a blanket condemnation of everything FW does. Errors like that happen. They suck, they're dumb, but they at least get fixed with FW stuff that's overpowered. You look other game systems, issues like that arise under similar conditions, and when you look at GW, they're not so great at addressing that stuff as quickly. Not so worried about that.

Then we have offender #2, malefic lord spam. Nuff said. How this alone doesn't constitute more than enough evidence on how "good" the addition of FW to the game is, I have no idea. QED.

Again, if you're cherry picking a couple of instances that lasted less than 6 months in the midst of total rules reboot, which have been rectified for a couple of months now already, ok, you're making my point for me.

Which, again was not what you're trying to make it out to be, lets re-examine it however.

Vaktathi wrote:When you look at top tournament tables in these editions, FW stuff is relatively rare and tends to only pop up for a few months before it gets nerfed

Seems we're pretty square on so far here. There was a rare outlier, it popped up for a few months and got nerfed.

But to make this list even worse, we then have offender #3, FW superheavies (that had to be blanked banned by GW from their tournaments by doubling their price in FAQ) that utterly destroyed any semblance of balance

The ones tons of people are bemoaning being ridiculously overcosted now, and that totally aren't like the ones in the IG codex? Shadowsword anyone? Or, Emperor forbid...Mortarion and Magnus?

and offender #4, Fire Raptor spam, on both loyal and chaos side, which you need to be pretending really hard you're blind not to notice. What a great record, eh?

You get to blame GW for that one, it's their Chapter Approved that took 60pts off. FW priced it at 250.

Anyway, the point is - I like how people 'pretend' there is no problem with FW because they don't even bother to read FW rules, and they think everything is "fine" because they don't notice these models littering the tables everywhere.

No, you're trying to shadowbox a strongman that doesn't really exist.

FW isn't perfect. FW does mess up sometimes. The point people have been making is that, relative to the number of issues with Codex stuff, they're relatively few, you have to really cherrypick 'em, they tend to get addressed quickly (and historically much faster than Codex issues). Most are in fact already fixed, and when we look at 8E tournaments as a whole, we basically got some Elysian sideshow stuff that seems to do about as well as the normal Guard stuff and the Malefic Lords which has since been nerfed into oblivion, and really was more a symptom of Smite being an issue than anything else. Yes, at the top tiers you're going to primarily see only the cherry picked stuff, but that applies to everything, and as a proportion of stuff available FW does not appear to be a heavy favorite, while at the same time lots of people attend large events and tournaments with no intention or hope of getting to the top tables and they play all sorts of armies and bring subpar units.

Well guess what, you don't notice them only because of comically expensive FW prices, bad material they are made of limiting attractiveness, and the fact they are only available in one place limiting supply (piracy notwithstanding). I am really not surprised tournament organizers who see the cherrypicked manure driven in from the whole country, concentrated, and dumped en masse on tables during their tournaments are tired of it and want to curtail it.

And you don't get the exact same thing with non-FW stuff? Lets acknowledge that the only thing we're debating here is a sales channel a model and its rules is delivered by, there's no more distinction than that, and certainly no systemic pattern of greater imbalance or outrageous issues than with Codex stuff that would merit such attention.

The problem is, FW tends to produce two kinds of units. Garbage (which you don't see on tournaments anyway), broken (that you don't want to see on tournaments as spam of it destroys balance faster than you can say '900 pounds a unit'), and the rare balanced FW unit are so rarely seen in a list (because of the price and the fact you can have plastic equivalent for a fraction of that) it really does make far more sense to blanket ban the lot than try to waste time to sift FW books for a tiny handful of units that you then would allow. Why bother?

Because, again, outside of a couple of examples that were relatively quickly fixed, there appears to be no major systemic issue with FW stuff that adds more headache than it's worth except for the people that do nothing but overfocus on just those things.

What I don't get is the fact is that people get their pants twisted into pretzel at what is pretty justified and hard argued decision. No one bans your FW models from pickup games and casual tournaments.

Nobody is saying that, however at the same time, lets be real, what large events dictate filters down to these smaller events and to pickup expectations. In many places, the big tournament rules are the rules by which pretty much all games take place, just the nature of many communities.

They are only banned in places where people DO spam cheese of the month the FW books overflow with.

which happen to be the places where that's done with everything, FW or no...so what makes FW special...?

I suppose you're doing a service to this forum, though, everyone who says "FW is totes fine!" and presents zero arguments for it, can be safely completely disregarded in all future game balance discussions as they have as much of a clue about balance as elysian writer above

After an argument that consisted basically of cherrypicking a couple of things that haven't been issues for a couple of months now, while simultaneously declaring anything in the past to be irrelevant when multiple editions worth of events show no major issues with FW and then claiming that nobody is presenting evidence, and declaring yourself to be correct in shadowboxing a concept of "FW is totes fine" personified as "FW is perfect", I guess I can see where that sort of logic would deliver you to such a conclusion.

That doesn't make it a sound conclusion however.

Now I'll say, Ibris, you have a horrible way to debate. You are always so condescending, despising other people arguments more than discussing them.

At least superficially, you present yourself as possessing the absolute truth constantly.

I'll agree thought that FW units are in a limbo. Its obvious GW don't really want to balance them, and is obvious FW isn't gonna do it. So we have an anual CA to touch them. Thats not enough when the regular GW units receive balance changes in Codex's, FAQ's, etc...

If the bi-annual big GW FAQ's actually touch FW stuff I'll change my mind.

dosiere wrote:
The obscure nature of the rules is a major barrier.

What is this, the early 1990s? Just buy the book and the rules are yours! Calling them obscure is just about the same as me calling Eldar obscure because I didn't bother to buy their codex.

Marmatag wrote:Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides. So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

Today I learned my auto-cannon Chimeras and Stygis Vanquishers are competitive.

fe40k wrote:Codecii.

Codices.

 Infantryman wrote:

Marmatag wrote:Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides. So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

Today I learned my auto-cannon Chimeras and Stygis Vanquishers are competitive.

Oh my god. My Corsairs are paying ten points per model for Guardians with no Battle Focus and weaker Leadership because they're sneaking incredibly overpowered stuff into the game disguised as complete s***.

 Infantryman wrote:

dosiere wrote:
The obscure nature of the rules is a major barrier.

What is this, the early 1990s? Just buy the book and the rules are yours! Calling them obscure is just about the same as me calling Eldar obscure because I didn't bother to buy their codex.

Hell, no one who doesn't actually play Tyranids can tell what any of their crap does, so we should ban them too.

 Fafnir wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:

dosiere wrote:
The obscure nature of the rules is a major barrier.

What is this, the early 1990s? Just buy the book and the rules are yours! Calling them obscure is just about the same as me calling Eldar obscure because I didn't bother to buy their codex.

Hell, no one who doesn't actually play Tyranids can tell what any of their crap does, so we should ban them too.

Yep - can't be lettin' 'em get one up on me! Also, I haven't touched a SM codex since 2010, so that's right on out too.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:

Marmatag wrote:Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides. So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

Today I learned my auto-cannon Chimeras and Stygis Vanquishers are competitive.

Oh my god. My Corsairs are paying ten points per model for Guardians with no Battle Focus and weaker Leadership because they're sneaking incredibly overpowered stuff into the game disguised as complete s***.

I dunno man.

My Stormhammer superheavy tanks with a 1d6 main gun (the only Baneblade variant to shoot fewer times than some Russes with its main gun) and the old, crappy Steel Behemoth rule (that doesn't remove the -1 penalty for moving and shooting!) are really sweeping tournaments.

I mean, I went 4-4 at NOVA with 3 of them. Obviously heinously OP, and we should all be limiting ourselves to reasonable GW superheavies like Magnus, Mortarion, and Shadowswords.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:

Marmatag wrote:Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides. So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

Today I learned my auto-cannon Chimeras and Stygis Vanquishers are competitive.

Oh my god. My Corsairs are paying ten points per model for Guardians with no Battle Focus and weaker Leadership because they're sneaking incredibly overpowered stuff into the game disguised as complete s***.

I dunno man.

My Stormhammer superheavy tanks with a 1d6 main gun (the only Baneblade variant to shoot fewer times than some Russes with its main gun) and the old, crappy Steel Behemoth rule (that doesn't remove the -1 penalty for moving and shooting!) are really sweeping tournaments.

I mean, I went 4-4 at NOVA with 3 of them. Obviously heinously OP, and we should all be limiting ourselves to reasonable GW superheavies like Magnus, Mortarion, and Shadowswords.

I've worked it out - if I tank two Detachments based around Trojans, I basically have the game won before dice are even rolled.

Always loved FW and always will.
#FWModelsMatter

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wow, this again.

You'd think after allowing Forge World did not utterly overthrow the entire tournament scene and bring it crumbling to the ground, you'd think people would stop claiming that allowing Forge World would overthrow the entire tournament scene and bring it crumbling to the ground.

"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"

Lol, stealing this as my new sig

FW does have (or had, as the case may be) a handful of overpowered units. Before they were nerfed I took a couple of earthshaker platforms to a tourney because they were cheaper than a basilisk, could shoot with an enemy within 1 inch, and didn't degrade. I admit it was broken. Now? Not so much. The pendulum swung hard.

In that tourney I got my butt kicked by Conscript/commissar spam. I know that was also nerfed. No one is perfect. holding out a few flaws isn't proving a rule.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:

If GW isn’t willing to pull FW directly under its own umbrella - sell it on their site instead of as if it were a seperate entity, I see banning continuing and being justified.

w...why? What difference does the website make to the game? Its still a GW domain, run by GW employees from GW HQ in Nottingham...it's just a separate sales channel.

it is just not the the seperate websites, there are no actual connections to FW even in GWs fysical shops.
they are 2 completely seperated companys as it currently stand, united only by adds in white dwarf.

if FW is ever to be publicly accepted as part of GW, they need to merge. that means FW products beeing sold in GW shops + their site and FW units beeing included in the GW codex.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:

If GW isn’t willing to pull FW directly under its own umbrella - sell it on their site instead of as if it were a seperate entity, I see banning continuing and being justified.

w...why? What difference does the website make to the game? Its still a GW domain, run by GW employees from GW HQ in Nottingham...it's just a separate sales channel.

it is just not the the seperate websites, there are no actual connections to FW even in GWs fysical shops.
they are 2 completely seperated companys as it currently stand, united only by adds in white dwarf.

if FW is ever to be publicly accepted as part of GW, they need to merge. that means FW products beeing sold in GW shops + their site and FW units beeing included in the GW codex.

I certainly wouldn't oppose that, but Games Workshop, as a corporate entity, for whatever reasons (maybe the FW people want it that way? Maybe GW doesn't want the appearance of higher costs or limited availability to offset/confuse new people? Who knows?) has chosen to keep the FW studio as a distinct sales channel.

That said, FW's existence is no secret (30k alone is more popular than most other tabletop miniatures games) the rules can be bought online like any other book, and is pirated as much as any other GW publications are, and if you can buy something off Amazon, Ebay, the War Store, or from Games Workshop's own site, you can buy it just as easily from Forgeworld. Many units and models have shifted back and forth more than once (e.g. the IG Griffon, started as a Codex unit in 2E, went to FW in late 3E, back to a Codex unit in 5E, and back to FW again with 6E). It's largely just appearances, the perception of separation, that causes people to treat FW as something distinctly different as a gameplay element rather than any actual real distinction being made in the rules, background, writers intentions or corporate ownership (aside from either "nobody in the main studio could devote time to it or "we can't make it profitably work in plastic") considering one to exist.

FW is a division of GW. There is no doubt about it. You can look it up as a part of public records. However, GW has traditionally kept it at arms length. This is no different than Campbell's Soups and Dole fruits. They are each part of the same company but each does its own thing regarding marketing and sales.

 Vaktathi wrote:
[. Many units and models have shifted back and forth more than once (e.g. the IG Griffon, started as a Codex unit in 2E, went to FW in late 3E, back to a Codex unit in 5E, and back to FW again with 6E). It's largely just appearances, the perception of separation, that causes people to treat FW as something distinctly different as a gameplay element rather than any actual real distinction being made in the rules.

I had two Griffins I purchased when I first started playing back in 2000. They were the metal/plastic hybrid GW kits. A number of years later someone claimed I was using Griffons "to win" because of their slightly OP FW rules, and that I wasn't even using an "official" model. Apparently they didn't know about Griffons being a GW box kit originally. I know that the FW rules were overpowered a bit, but I think the perception of it was worse than it was.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
FW is a division of GW. There is no doubt about it. You can look it up as a part of public records. However, GW has traditionally kept it at arms length. This is no different than Campbell's Soups and Dole fruits. They are each part of the same company but each does its own thing regarding marketing and sales.

GW and FW are one and the same company. FW is not a division of GW, FW doesn't even legally exist. FW is just the name of a website run by GW to sell more niche miniatures.

That said, I think we should ban all miniatures. Evidently, GW has no idea how to balance, so we can't endanger balance by allowing their miniatures at tournaments. Tournament games should now be settled by the players without the intervention of miniatures. Players will now be able to defeat one another through Greco-Roman wrestling. Use of external weapons not allowed. Going naked and slicking your body up with oil is optional but recommended for the sake of historical accuracy (aka the fluff) and balance.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
FW is a division of GW. There is no doubt about it. You can look it up as a part of public records. However, GW has traditionally kept it at arms length. This is no different than Campbell's Soups and Dole fruits. They are each part of the same company but each does its own thing regarding marketing and sales.

Must be real awkward having shops within feet of one another inside Warhammer World...

Side note, is Teenabot 5000 ever going to reply to this thread or has "she" just made this to funnel people to "her" blog?

 cuda1179 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
[. Many units and models have shifted back and forth more than once (e.g. the IG Griffon, started as a Codex unit in 2E, went to FW in late 3E, back to a Codex unit in 5E, and back to FW again with 6E). It's largely just appearances, the perception of separation, that causes people to treat FW as something distinctly different as a gameplay element rather than any actual real distinction being made in the rules.

I had two Griffins I purchased when I first started playing back in 2000. They were the metal/plastic hybrid GW kits. A number of years later someone claimed I was using Griffons "to win" because of their slightly OP FW rules, and that I wasn't even using an "official" model. Apparently they didn't know about Griffons being a GW box kit originally. I know that the FW rules were overpowered a bit, but I think the perception of it was worse than it was.

I had someone say that I was running a trio of Tarantula Sentry Guns with my Guard because the rules were OP...

They're Heavy Bolter Tarantulas, mind you.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I had two Griffins I purchased when I first started playing back in 2000. They were the metal/plastic hybrid GW kits. A number of years later someone claimed I was using Griffons "to win" because of their slightly OP FW rules, and that I wasn't even using an "official" model. Apparently they didn't know about Griffons being a GW box kit originally. I know that the FW rules were overpowered a bit, but I think the perception of it was worse than it was.

Whatever happened to Griffons, anyways? Not in FW, not in Codex. Where they in 7th?

 Kanluwen wrote:


They're Heavy Bolter Tarantulas, mind you.

They any good? They have cool models but I never could figure why one would field a stationary item like that.