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Made in ru
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge






Recently saw the results of the poll where the majority of team members voted for the ban of Imperial Armor at the upcoming ETC. This started a new round of debates about balance in IA and the ability to use it. Well, we shall also discuss it.

Everyone knows that Games Workshop officially allowed to use the models and rules of Forge World at all tournaments and events. And this is always given as the first argument by the supporters of IA. But the organizers of a particular tournament still often disagree with it.


In fact, the ban on major tournaments is quite logical. Units are not always balanced and equivalent even inside a GW codex. Therefore, adding additional variables to the balance is not a good idea. And the matter is not even in the IA itself, because even extensions from GW, such as Death from the skies, or Stronghold assault, were not always used in tournaments. The tournament is pretty well-adjusted, mechanism and one of the main tasks of the organizers are to reduce the imbalance to a minimum.


On the other hand, IA can compensate the disadvantages of some armies that are weak at the level of the codex, and bring diversity to the already formed tournament metagame. At the recent LA Open IA was allowed, but even so, all the first places were occupied by classical Eldar with reapers. Obviously, even despite all the claims to its balance, IA could not a break the classic operating schemes. But, perhaps, it made this tournament more interesting for someone.

Why is everything so uneven with these rules? Forge World – are dreamers. They create beautiful models that you really want to build and paint, and that looks very cool on the table. But at the same time, they think little of the balance and create the rules, which, in their opinion, the units should have. Of course, the correlation with other units inside the book, and even more, with the GW codices is out of the question. As a result, we get Greater Daemons, who at a minimum price, are able to stand alone, an army equivalent to them at a cost. Even the designers themselves realized that something went wrong, judging by the prices corrected in Chapter Approved.



In addition to the overpowered units, of course, there are both logical and balanced ones - but almost identical to the units from a codex. In this case, they are a little better or worse, which makes useless someone of this pair. Compare the Decimator and Hellbrute. It would be logical to use such models as an alternative, codex units, but this is not always possible due to the difference in the wargear.





Well, it is necessary to mention the reverse side of the beautiful models - they are all made of resin. And this is fragility, difficulties in assembly, and all the other known shortcomings.


As a result, there’s still no possible answer about the use of IA. The books themselves are too unequal. Yes, if you let it into your games, you get a wonderful variety of interesting units and rules. But along with this, you risk getting a spam of overpowered units, which will turn the game into torture. The only way out, capable to bring order at least somehow - to allow only full-painted models. This, at least, will exclude those who simply got maximumly powerful miniatures in order to win fast. And what do you think? Share your opinion about Imperial Armor in the comments!

Check our blog for more: https://warzone40k.com/imperial-armor-balance

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Again with this "Forgeworld is OP" bs?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





"I played against a model I didn't like once and found out it came from a side book so if I can get people to ban the entire book I don't have to play against that one thing anymore."

At this point, there's really no logic behind trying to ban FW. Check the "top 5 strongest" poll and nothing there is FW. It's largely just historical bias.
   
Made in de
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Somewhere near Hamburg

Name one overpowered unit in the current FW books.


How bout we also ban the Eldar codex from tournaments? It's been filled with cheese since a few editions now.

Astra Milit..*blam* Astra Milliwhat, heretic? 
   
Made in us
Hellacious Havoc





I personally do not understand people who are against IA units in game. Especially with the recent nerf the most obvious perpetrators received. My thought are that FW is a subsiderary of GW so they are official and that adding more units to the game can help with balance by upsetting the meta and adding new combinations and unforseen lists to tournaments. No one was banning special books in 7th like the campaign books, so why get your undies in a bunch now?
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




I say ban everything except tactical marines to avoid imbalance.
   
Made in ca
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Vancouver, BC

FW didn't sweep LVO, as was said, but you still say it's unbalanced? That is incredibly hilarious. The op pretty much said 'it didn't even place in the worlds largest 40k event, buuuut it is still unbalanced and should be banned'.

I'd rather play against some beautifully done FW models that have whacky rules than Dark Reapers in poorly done purple and black.

This seems like an elaborate troll, but I guess some grognards will hold onto their grudges unto death.

 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
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The Last Chancer Who Survived




On moon miranda.

 Teena Hancock wrote:
Recently saw the results of the poll where the majority of team members voted for the ban of Imperial Armor at the upcoming ETC. This started a new round of debates about balance in IA and the ability to use it. Well, we shall also discuss it.

Everyone knows that Games Workshop officially allowed to use the models and rules of Forge World at all tournaments and events. And this is always given as the first argument by the supporters of IA. But the organizers of a particular tournament still often disagree with it.


In fact, the ban on major tournaments is quite logical.
Except most major tournaments do allow FW...and there's no issues with it in practice.

Units are not always balanced and equivalent even inside a GW codex. Therefore, adding additional variables to the balance is not a good idea.
Do you have any evidence of this? There certainly appears to be no issue in tournaments that allow FW...FW stuff isn't dominating top tables, there's no FW stuff keeping some armies from doing better or acting as a major crutch for others, and in fact there's very little from FW even worth running in competitive play.



But along with this, you risk getting a spam of overpowered units, which will turn the game into torture.
This applies just as much to anything from a codex, and by looking at tournament data from 6E, 7E, and 8E where FW is allowed, there's really no evidence that FW plays a strong role in this. When you look at top tournament tables in these editions, FW stuff is relatively rare and tends to only pop up for a few months before it gets nerfed (while codex stuff often went entire editions without fixing).



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/01 15:14:44


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

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The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
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Oregon, USA

I have no problem playing against FW units, but I can understand that some people do without getting my panties in a bunch

If a group or tournament wants to ban FW they can. There is no law stating they are required to allow it. My local did for a long time because the TO didn't have all the IA books to reference in case of rules disputes, and they were a chunk of change. The FW indexes helped because there were only a few to buy.

Personally I find it spices up the game to see the occasional FW model, and I use them sometimes also.

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Michigan

I prefer FW units to standard codex units, Variety is the spice of life as they say.

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Fire raptor. Pretty much only spammed FW unit at the LVO and that thing was spammed. Elyssian drop troops are another one that don't seem balanced against codex entries but they didn't make a huge showing at LVO (DKoK did but I'm not familiar enough with them to have an educated opinion other than they look cool as hell)

That top 5 most powerful poll is a joke BTW, guilliman is number 1 by a long shot but he only showed up on 3 top 100 tables (less than the number of eldar armies in the top 8).

The other OP FW units would probably be the big Tau suit (yahvara or something) and the necron pylon thing. But both of those armies are in such a bad place right now they kind of need the help.

The sicarian tanks for SM are significantly better than the pred versions after the CA price drop and if you can keep it alive the leviathan offers a decent choice but compared to what's out there in GW codexes I don't think they qualify as OP.

Lias Issadon is a popular FW choice but I'm not sure if he tips the scales as OP or if it's just that SM units are struggling right now so his impact isn't as big as it could be.

I think the FW hate is driven by 3 major factors. FLGS can't sell FW models thus have no motivation to see them in their store (they'd rather you use stuff you can buy from them and advertise to observers opponents cool new models they can make a buck from).

Secondly I think it is a hold over from previous editions where some of their stuff was broken and a hassle/expensive to get making it a "pay to win" gotcha unit that made people feel slimy.

And finally I think that people are against FW for the same reason they are against soup, when you have that many options of units it is easy to cherry pick the best and end up with some wonky combos that I don't think GW has the ability to balance leading to issues like chaos fire raptors with marks of nurgle being -2 to hit
   
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Mississippi

People still associate Forgeworld as bad fanfic or “officially recognized 3rd party homebrew” for 40K. Some of it is deserved, most is not.

If GW isn’t willing to pull FW directly under its own umbrella - sell it on their site instead of as if it were a seperate entity, I see banning continuing and being justified.

It never ends well 
   
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On moon miranda.

 Stormonu wrote:

If GW isn’t willing to pull FW directly under its own umbrella - sell it on their site instead of as if it were a seperate entity, I see banning continuing and being justified.
w...why? What difference does the website make to the game? Its still a GW domain, run by GW employees from GW HQ in Nottingham...it's just a separate sales channel.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

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The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
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Problem with trying to determine if forge world is OP is it really comes down to a case by case basis. For rau'kares, he is not really broken anymore at 1200 points he is over costed if anything now, grossly over costed.

Fire raptor gunship, over powered, not because of it's stats but because it's point cost. Quad bolter and laz Cannon batterys? Pretty meh, sacarion? Pretty meh. A warhound Titan? Seeing as how it's 2k meh.

kill ALL the orks!

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Falls Church, VA

Wow, this again.

You'd think after allowing Forge World did not utterly overthrow the entire tournament scene and bring it crumbling to the ground, you'd think people would stop claiming that allowing Forge World would overthrow the entire tournament scene and bring it crumbling to the ground.

"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

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You want to ban stuff for being op you need to ban first gw codex. Fw stuff generally leans toward weak side. Not surprising seeing they have only developers worth anything at gw company

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Mississippi

 Vaktathi wrote:
 Stormonu wrote:

If GW isn’t willing to pull FW directly under its own umbrella - sell it on their site instead of as if it were a seperate entity, I see banning continuing and being justified.
w...why? What difference does the website make to the game? Its still a GW domain, run by GW employees from GW HQ in Nottingham...it's just a separate sales channel.


Not me, personally, but a lot of people tend to lump things into “Us” and “Them”. Until GW removes that distiction - fully merges FW into GW so there is no distiction between the two, people will attempt to carve out FW as being seperate - and somehow inferior - to the rest of GW’s catalog. Not inferior in model quality, but inferior in authenticity.

It never ends well 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






Again, all of this boils down to: don't be a douche.

If you're playing non-tournament games, you should have an interest in whether or not your opponent is having a good time (winning or losing regardless). The only FW stuff I have access to is a couple of Predator options and a Leviathan dreadnought. I clear it with my opponent, and while I've only played two games with them, they haven't broken anything yet. However, if it becomes unfun for my opponent (I normally don't win) I'd be happy to set them aside. I restrict them to larger games anyway.

 
   
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Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

It would be healthy to see a restricted / banned list for these major tournaments.

You don't want to blanket ban FW. If a unit is too strong, like Alphabet-Soup before the nerf, just ban that unit; don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

And it's clear that Reapers are vastly overperforming, simply place a restriction on the number of reaper units and models you can bring, in total. Maximum 3 units, maximum 15 total models. Boom. Now it's a strong unit that requires synergy with the rest of the army to be good, while still being very strong in and of itself.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wow, this again.

You'd think after allowing Forge World did not utterly overthrow the entire tournament scene and bring it crumbling to the ground, you'd think people would stop claiming that allowing Forge World would overthrow the entire tournament scene and bring it crumbling to the ground.

"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"


Forge world malific lord spam won a grand tournament. So there is your example of when forge world broke the game. Same with pre alphabet soup nerf.

kill ALL the orks!

1500 pts Legion of the Damned (Salamanders)
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Falls Church, VA

 Backspacehacker wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wow, this again.

You'd think after allowing Forge World did not utterly overthrow the entire tournament scene and bring it crumbling to the ground, you'd think people would stop claiming that allowing Forge World would overthrow the entire tournament scene and bring it crumbling to the ground.

"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"


Forge world malific lord spam won a grand tournament. So there is your example of when forge world broke the game. Same with pre alphabet soup nerf.


1) It didn't destroy the community though. If you can't see the difference between "hey, this army won a tournament" and "THE SKY IS FALLLING WOW HOW WILL THE TOURNAMENT SCENE SURVIVE?!" then I don't know what to tell you.
2) Also, it was promptly nerfed into the ground.

Reaper spam broke the game. I vote we have a FW-only tournament and ban GW.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/01 16:38:16


Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
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Hey you asked for an example of when fw broke the torunoment, and I gave you one. Your moving the goal post now to "it does not break the community" malific lords were absolutely broken because eof how cheap they were and smite spam, and we're pretty much a staple of any competitive chaos list until they were nerfed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And you just proved that the malific lords were game braking. Your second point, points out that it was nerfed into the ground. That forge world unit was so powerful, they had to nerf it right after because eof how strong it was, because either would have destoryed the community.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But we digress, the really issue is fw OP is really a case by case bases not a blanket statement that anything from forge world is OP remove right away.

Let's look at the laviathen dread. Can just wreck vehicles and buildings, but cant be drop podded in and I had one blasted off the table turn one by basalisks.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/02/01 16:45:18


kill ALL the orks!

1500 pts Legion of the Damned (Salamanders)
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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Falls Church, VA

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Hey you asked for an example of when fw broke the torunoment, and I gave you one. Your moving the goal post now to "it does not break the community" malific lords were absolutely broken because eof how cheap they were and smite spam, and we're pretty much a staple of any competitive chaos list until they were nerfed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And you just proved that the malific lords were game braking. Your second point, points out that it was nerfed into the ground. That forge world unit was so powerful, they had to nerf it right after because eof how strong it was, because either would have destoryed the community.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But we digress, the really issue is fw OP is really a case by case bases not a blanket statement that anything from forge world is OP remove right away.

Let's look at the laviathen dread. Can just wreck vehicles and buildings, but cant be drop podded in and I had one blasted off the table turn one by basalisks.


I asked for an example of it overthrowing the entire tournament scene and bringing it crashing to the ground. The other wording I used was "ruining".

Neither of those things happened. Even if Malefic Lords hadn't been nerfed, the tournament scene would grind on and on inexorably. Forge World is not any worse for tournament play than Games Workshop's other products are.

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

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Imperial Armor has units that are OP, and units that are UP - but let's not kid ourselves, GW Codecii have just as many, if not more, of units that fall into either category.

I understand that in the past IA may have been crazy in general; but those days are not these days.

IA is no worse, or better, than GW's Codecii.
   
Made in gb
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Dorset, England

Secondly I think it is a hold over from previous editions where some of their stuff was broken and a hassle/expensive to get making it a "pay to win" gotcha unit that made people feel slimy.

I think you hit the nail on the head for me here.

Playing Warhammer at school, Forgeworld was some weird website you had only vaguely heard of (and the internet was new and weird enough itself!) that people used to pull out some OP unit with loads of crazy special rules that you never even knew existed. This made it the ultimate gotcha!

Whats worse was that most of us didn't even have Codices back then, you found out unit stats and rules just by talking to someone who might have read their brothers Codex one time. So basically you could make up any rules you liked for Forgeworld because no one could ever check! I only found out this year that the Choppa rule was real and not something we made up haha!

So I have definitely have a historic bias against Forgeworld!

What doesn't help is that Forgeworld is mainly about vehicles, monsters, fliers etc. that I don't really like. I prefer battles with a healthy dose of regular troops vs regular troops

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/01 17:10:17


 
   
Made in es
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets




Vigo. Spain.

As much as I try, in Spain Forgeworld is outright banned in nearly everywhere, from local tournaments to big GT's, even the biggest one (Talavera).

The arguments are the same ones that were here 20 years ago, but at the end of the day the guys organizing the events are the same ones 20 years ago.
Age of Sigmar here "died" for the same reason, Spain is full of grognards, and Fantasy is still more popular.
To that, one has to add that Chineforge is very, very common in Spain. So that adds to the "Forgeworld is bad, and it doesn't matter, most people don't buy the legitimate product anyway"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/01 17:13:38


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
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The whole discussion seems to have missed out on the obvious solution: Imperial Armour is allowed, with a list of exceptions. Don't want to see a Warhound with five hundred points of Guard for Command Points in your tournament? Think Aetaos'rau'keres is wildly overpowered? How about banning the problem units directly instead of banning everything else in Imperial Armour (which includes some of the worst units in the game right now (Corsairs), for the record) along with them?

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Forgeworld seems to have long been a source of wildly unbalanced models, both because of their lack of testing versus their larger cousin, the fact that they get the rules secondhand as if they were an outside company, etc.

Things seem to be improving. Several local tournaments have removed their ban on Forgeworld, only keeping the 31pl limit. Even Reece, who has gone on them before, has mentioned he might even be okay lifting the 31PL limit for ITC.

If FW ups their game this could finally be the point where they are considered equal of the standard GW stuff.

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 lolman1c wrote:
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 AnomanderRake wrote:
The whole discussion seems to have missed out on the obvious solution: Imperial Armour is allowed, with a list of exceptions. Don't want to see a Warhound with five hundred points of Guard for Command Points in your tournament? Think Aetaos'rau'keres is wildly overpowered? How about banning the problem units directly instead of banning everything else in Imperial Armour (which includes some of the worst units in the game right now (Corsairs), for the record) along with them?


Because this argument holds no better argument for ForgeWorld than it does for any GW product and ultimately banning things you think is too powerful is entirely subjective and almost impossible to implement without personal bias.
   
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In My Lab

Ban certain models or units that are OP-don't blanket ban anything.

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