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Personally as a chaos player i own 2 units that i have to use FW rules for my greater blight stone and my chaos contempt or made out of the plastic kit. Neither are exactly game breakkng

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Baneblade was ported over in 2007, during 4th edition, and was made monstrously more powerful than it ever was under FW's rules though it did suck in 7E (along with pretty much anything IG).


The Hydras were similarly treated, going from 200pt FW units to 75pt squadronable GW Codex units that got to ignore skimmer saves to boot. Valkyries got better armor and more abilities and their cost halved when moved away from FW.

The Hydra didn't get to "ignore skimmer saves".
It got to ignore the cover saves granted to skimmers and bikes/jetbikes from moving flat out/turbo-boosting.

It might sound silly, but it's an important distinction to make I feel. It's like later on when FW did the "Auto-Targeting System" that allowed for their Hydra/Hydra Flak Batteries to ignore Supersonic and Jink saves. It was an incredibly specific thing especially in comparison to other things that just had "Ignores Cover".

I guess by "skimmer saves" I assumed it was understood I was referring to the save generated from moving flat out, mainly I was just emphasizing that GW dramatically enhanced the Hydra when porting it over not just in cost but in both availability and capability as well relative to its original FW incarnation.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Forge world has always been a luxury pay to win item.

More like "pay to have fun". I wouldn't be playing 40k, if I couldn't field my Krieg army, there's no other faction that appeals to me in the same way.

Why is this discussion still going on? I thought it had been settled years ago.

I've never thought that my army as a whole in any way is over powered. I certainly have a couple of units that are, but the majority of my army is not. Some choices were nerfed rather badly by the recent CA, so in all likelihood my army is better balanced now, than many mainstream factions. In 7th edition DKoK infantry was so severely overcosted, it made it harder to play well, not the other way around.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Again not all, just some forge world are broken

Guillimann, Dark Reapers and Shining spears are obviously paragon of balance eh?


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 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I wouldn't mind playing against FW units... If anyone actually had a real copy of IA and not dome battlescribe screenshots.

I often find out after a game, whatever was too good to be true with their questionable rules usually is.

Do same thing as with GW codexes. No rules to show, no models. Nobody plays vs me without rules on hand for GW models either. Nobody plays without rules for FW models as well.

Battle scribe is not enough whether it's FW or GW. No rules, no model. You either put model out of the table or I pack up and don't play. And any tournament worth anything bans any model without rules at hand and not counting battlescribe print out. Whether it's FW or GW is irrelevant.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Another really good example of a crazy strong forge world unit is the xyphon intercepter. This is crazy dumb for it's point cost and will decimate anything that has the fly keyword.

So will a Vendetta for the same points, with a transport capacity and more wounds to boot. The Xiphon is, IIRC a 230pt unit. Neither are spectacularly popular in competitive arenas.

At the start of 8th, the Xiphon was one of, if not the most efficient Lascannon platforms available to a lot of space marine armies, but it was adjusted in Chapter Approved. It's still good, far from broken though.

Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides. So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

 Marmatag wrote:
Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides. So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

That's not always true.

I want to use my Tarantula Sentry Turrets and Rapier Laser Destroyer with my Cadians...but I also want to use my Vulture with twin Punishers that I got ages ago, so maybe some might see it that way no matter what?

 Marmatag wrote:
Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides. So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

That's a lot of true, but loaded words. Ultimately, the point is nothing from FW is really any more powerful than stuff from GW proper. You can find and replace every instance of Forgeworld/FW with the name of any codex in the game and have an equally true statement:

Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Grey Knights is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Grey Knights provides. So every discussion of GK should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want GK.

I'd like the competitive advantage that GKs provide. Where can I find it?

 Marmatag wrote:
Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides. So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

Quite the broad brush, there.

 Marmatag wrote:
Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides.

wait wat? You know this definitively...how?

I like being able to bring my DKoK army to events. I like running my Decimator and Nightwing and Heavy Mortars and Rapier Laser Destroyers. I like having the ability to use these in tournaments. I've run these things through many editions, and tournament legality heavily impacts what people will play even in pickup games.

I dont think I own any FW units that have ever been seen as particularly outstanding (except an upainted Eldar Scorpion which Ive never gotten around to painting or running in tournament). I forcefully advocate for FW's inclusion because I want to be able to play with all my 40k toys.

So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

which is entirely your own perception projected onto this conversation to allow you to conveniently fit it into into a neat little box for yourself.

 Marmatag wrote:
Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides. So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

Incorrect. Most people arguing for the use of Forgeworld are doing so because they want to use their existing miniatures collection, most of which were bought years before the 8th edition rules for them were printed. So every discussion of FW should be viewing a random mix of fluffy units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

 Marmatag wrote:
Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides. So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

Yeah, wanting to use a Telemon or Galatus dreadnought that don't even have rules is because I want a competitive advantage.

ah this is rearing its ugly head again... yay...

Anyone that thinks FW is "pay to win" is wrong.

its that simple, FW like GW is all over the place when it comes to balance, saying FW is pay to win is like saying GW is, because of Guilliman or Dark Reapers... its untrue and is easily proven to be untrue, they havent a leg to stand on.

 Marmatag wrote:
Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides. So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

Nope. Wrong. Broad sweeping generalizations often are. But lets turn that around, just for fun. So what you are saying is that its bad for people to look for a competitive advantage when making lists for tournaments? Or even private games where all players involved like crunchy games? But thats not even my point.

My point is I havent seen this much wrong in a post in a looong time. And this is dakka we are talking about. Its already been shown that forgeworld has yet to budge the meta (outside of one or two undercosted units early in 8th, which got nerfed in lightning speed, by games workshop standards of speed). It is true that Forgeworld started 8th with some horribly priced LoW choices. This was fixed and now they are all overcosted to an extreme. I toss this this up to 8th has been such a radical shitt in gameplay that anyone outside of the design team had a grasp. And even GW proper gets points wrong constantly. 15 points for a str 4 ap 2 dmg 1 flamer? Pass. If flamer prices were reasonable you may see less hordes. But flamers are overpriced to the point that they are not a wise choice except for units expected to eat charges.

And im sorry if I come off snarky. I make a rule not to be insulting or condescending on the internet.

Edit : My most used FW unit is the khardi. Because GW refuses to give CSM a drop pod model (which is horribly against the fluff). Its like if they refused to make rhinos for space marines. My favorite FW model is the Kytan. Which is overcosted and under performing than any other Khorne LoW. Awesome model. Love it. Im getting one strictly because it looks so great. Itll probably see very few actual games due to gak rules and price.

 Marmatag wrote:
Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides. So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

And we don't do that here for codex units?

last night I pulled out my FW index and 90% of players there had never actually seen it. I was asked all kinds of questions, but the biggest one was "how much?" £15 is cheap and I think that I'm the only one(locally) that actually has legit models not forgedworld.

Yes some stuff is powerful, most times not so much tho. FW isn't pay to win, it pay to have killer looking models that can be specific to an army. since they're resin, not simple to put together like plastic on sprue and more expensive it gets a stigma of OPness.

 Marmatag wrote:
Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides. So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

This is somewhat true, with some caveats.

FW units got nerfed to hell in CA, very few of them are worth the points investment anymore (888 points for the super Bloodthirster? obviously a lot of thought went into that point calculation). That being said, the two units I actually use managed to avoid the reaper's scythe as it were.

Chaos Storm Eagle Assault Gunship - I've wanted a flyer and a transport capacity of 20 since second edition, they gave it to me, I use it, I have two of them, my World Eaters are very happy.
Rapiers - for 82 points the Rapier Heavy Bolter is pretty amazing, however, it is severely limited by terrain, you end up on a cityscape map and they're basically relegated to locking down a lane for a couple turns.

 Marmatag wrote:
Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides. So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

Just to point out that anyone making this point is arguing from total ignorance and can be simply laughed out of the discussion. So every discussion of FW should simply ignore arguments this ridiculous.

 Marmatag wrote:
Just dropping in to point out that anyone arguing for the use of Forgeworld is doing so because they want a competitive advantage that Forgeworld provides. So every discussion of FW should be viewing the most powerful units, as that's what people are actually asking for when they say they want FW.

Cite your sources. - Some people use it for their power, some for their options, some for their flavor.

Also; I checked your post history; you're trying to make competitive lists (which by their nature, utilize the best/strongest units//options in any given army set) - by your logic, we should advocate removing GW Codecii//entire armies, as people want "that competitive advantage" those books or armies provides.

You're going to counter with "But I play Grey Knights, they're weak!"; it's not about the army, it's about the argument.

Did the tournament organizers also poll whether other units should be banned from the tournament too, or just pick on FW?

I imagine most of the people that voted for a ban don't plan on using FW units, so why would they vote no if it isn't in their own best interest?

It's like voting if Baneblades or Dark Reapers should be banned. The majority probably won't be playing guard or eldar, and they would probably get banned if it were put to a vote.

Forge World is OP? Let's pretend it is for a second.

Is there some kind of special privilege club you have to belong to to access Forge World? Is their customer service office calling you to tell you, "Sorry, peasant, you aren't allowed this toy. Only our elite friends are allowed to buy this"?

No? Let me use a metaphor.

We decide to go to a sporting goods store to buy items to use as weapons in a duel.

You buy a baseball bat.

I buy a hunting spear.

You can't say it isn't fair, you just didn't purchase wisely.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Forge World is OP? Let's pretend it is for a second.

Is there some kind of special privilege club you have to belong to to access Forge World? Is their customer service office calling you to tell you, "Sorry, peasant, you aren't allowed this toy. Only our elite friends are allowed to buy this"?

No? Let me use a metaphor.

We decide to go to a sporting goods store to buy items to use as weapons in a duel.

You buy a baseball bat.

I buy a hunting spear.

You can't say it isn't fair, you just didn't purchase wisely.

I'm not certain if you are trolling or are being ironic.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
I'm not certain if you are trolling or are being ironic.

I'll keep it very simple, then.

Forge World models aren't OP, but some people think they are.

They aren't limited edition, they aren't restricted for purchase to one region, they aren't only given to special people with friends at GW. They're readily available and accessible to literally anyone with an address, internet access, money, a means to transfer said money, and a few days to wait for it to ship.

In other words, any moron in the modern world with the money to spend can buy a Forge World model.

And if you're on a budget, you can find people selling used models all day long.

It's not hard at all.

I have a public school American education, an average income, and a full-time job and I still managed to get my models. There's no reason anyone else can't do the same.

I could understand if the models were restricted to certain things, or extremely limited in number for a special one-time thing. But they aren't.

In truth, there's only a few reasons they're banned by (incompetent) tournament organizers

-They hate that someone can afford Forge World.
-They own the FLGS and can't stock them, so they don't want you using something they can't sell to other people.
-They're still living in 4th edition.
-They're too lazy to get anything that's not a Codex on the store shelf
-They're buttmad because someone is making a Space Marine army interesting

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Forge World is OP? Let's pretend it is for a second.

Is there some kind of special privilege club you have to belong to to access Forge World? Is their customer service office calling you to tell you, "Sorry, peasant, you aren't allowed this toy. Only our elite friends are allowed to buy this"?

No? Let me use a metaphor.

We decide to go to a sporting goods store to buy items to use as weapons in a duel.

You buy a baseball bat.

I buy a hunting spear.

You can't say it isn't fair, you just didn't purchase wisely.

But to see why FLGS/GW stores would ban FW imagine same scenario but a wild dude C appears up with a machine gun that they don't sell at the sporting goods store. So you bought the best weapon where you are having your battle but dude C went somewhere else and found a better weapon that you didn't know anything about (being new to the whole death brawl in a sporting goods store scene). That machine gun isn't on the wall, in the sporting goods catalog or in any pictures of weapons for sale at that sporting goods store.

Instead of by-standards flocking to buy that hunting spear they are now going to that specialty shop where dude C bought his machine gun. Hell if you live you and baseball bat dude probably will too.

No one cares if the secret shop also sells pillows, sling-shots and jelly beans. The sporting goods shop owner would be perfectly happy if their customers never knew that specialty machine gun shop ever existed.

Now if Forge world was willing to offer wholesale with cheap shipping (for US shops) those shop owners maybe willing to listen to the balance/fairness because they can make a buck or two. Even the GW brick and mortars would rather have you buy something through them than FW which they don't see cash from.

Throw in the FW recaster problem I can see why stores don't want FW.

I'm not sure why players don't want FW (it's really not that much more expensive than GW stuff and I'd agree with the other posters here that they have *some* broken units but GW is guilty of the same.) The only problem is that GW did come out and say they are not in the business of balancing FW stuff and that after the CA nerfs it's really in FWs court and given that FW didn't do any balancing I'm not sure how much we can bank on them doing the right/fair thing in the future.

bananathug wrote:
But to see why FLGS/GW stores would ban FW imagine same scenario...

In other words, like I was saying: Shop owner can't sell it.

That's not a tournament, it's a marketing push.

I've seen ONE place ban Forge World models. People stopped going to his tournaments. Now he allows them. He practically begs people to come in and play.

Because, let's face it- unless someone's playing DKoK, a good portion of their army CAN be purchased through GW. Sure, you can't buy the Spartan I put on the table, but you can get most of my army off the shelf.

By the logic that "He can't sell it so he shouldn't allow it", then I expect to see tournaments banning Sisters of Battle as well.

-They own the FLGS and can't stock them, so they don't want you using something they can't sell to other people.

This is why in most stores and 90% of the tournaments in Spain they ban Forgeworld.

And the "But then the judges/organizers will have twice the work to check if lists are correct and nodoby is doing crazy combos!" argument that is throw when a tournament isn't organized by a single store.

I think I'll need to fly to UK to be able to play my forgeworld stuff in a tournament

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

By the logic that "He can't sell it so he shouldn't allow it", then I expect to see tournaments banning Sisters of Battle as well.

In Spain some members of the community say that direct-only units should be banned aswell because it is unfair for the stores. They say "Is like having a restaurant and leeting people come with outside food". Is so infuriating.

 Galas wrote:
And the "But then the judges/organizers will have twice the work to check if lists are correct and nodoby is doing crazy combos!" argument that is throw when a tournament isn't organized by a single store.

If they have difficulty doing basic grade school math utilizing a book written in their language, then they aren't competent tournament organizers. I wouldn't trust this sort of people with a pre-peeled boiled egg, much less judging a tournament.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Galas wrote:
And the "But then the judges/organizers will have twice the work to check if lists are correct and nodoby is doing crazy combos!" argument that is throw when a tournament isn't organized by a single store.

If they have difficulty doing basic grade school math utilizing a book written in their language, then they aren't competent tournament organizers. I wouldn't trust this sort of people with a pre-peeled boiled egg, much less judging a tournament.

You tell them, I'm a nobody here Spain has a very special enviroment in relation with Warhammer. Is the land of the CAAC.

I'm just sad that I will not be able to use those beautifull Custodes Dreadnoughts when they come with their proper rules...

 Galas wrote:
You tell them, I'm a nobody here Spain has a very special enviroment in relation with Warhammer. Is the land of the CAAC.

You can tell them easier than I can. I only know enough Spanish to order a beer and get slapped by a woman.

You can tell them loud and clear if you host your own tournament and allow Forge World. See what happens. If people with Forge World models come out of the woodwork and pay in, then by all means- continue.

I'm not sure what it's like over there, but in the USA the dollar is pretty convincing.