SO what 40k character in the fluff can go toe to toe with the Primarchs or at least come close to it. I have a felling abbadon can kill at least one of them maybe in combat, possibly logar.
The Beast (huge old Ork) apparently had a good fisticuffs with Vulkan, so I guess if Ghazkull continues to eat his veggies he just might grow into a adversary for the primarchs.
yeah Strickly in the fluff. There are no non primarchs that can go one on one and win, or at least come close. wasnt lucious feared for his sword mastery.
Lum wrote: The Beast (huge old Ork) apparently had a good fisticuffs with Vulkan, so I guess if Ghazkull continues to eat his veggies he just might grow into a adversary for the primarchs.
IMO ghazzy is meant to be a primeork already; in the art he's gotta be at least 20 feet tall. The guardsmen care barely reach his knee in depictions. I really hope he gets rules close to primarch level in the next codex.
The Emperor, the Custodes Captain (had apparently won sparring matches vs primarchs), probably one of the old C'tans, as I mentioned above Kaldor Draigo (it's kind of his schtick), maybe a phoenix lord like Maugan Ra
ballzonya wrote: SO what 40k character in the fluff can go toe to toe with the Primarchs or at least come close to it. I have a felling abbadon can kill at least one of them maybe in combat, possibly logar.
Things like the Primorks of The Beast series could go toe to toe with a Primarch. Things like Greater Daemons, Avatars of Khaine, C'tan Shards, etc... can too. Normally theyll lose because Primarchs are the protagonists of those histories but they can put a fight. Didn't Ann'grathar broke the back of Sanguinius? And then Sanguinius broke his back in return in their next fight.
While I think fluff-wise the Phoenix Lords would be a bit better than they are on the tabletop, I don't get a Primarch level feeling from them (other than mastering their particular skill set at an above-Primarch level).
Considering (SPOILER) the one Phoenix Lord in a certain novel gets killed by a slow swinging dreadnought power fist...I don't think they're anything as powerful as a Primarch. I do think that they could easily out-do a Primarch in their dedicated discipline though.
Abaddon killed the clone of horus, and that was before he was the mortal champion of the ruinous powers. So if any Space marine could do it, it's probably him.
Elbows wrote: While I think fluff-wise the Phoenix Lords would be a bit better than they are on the tabletop, I don't get a Primarch level feeling from them (other than mastering their particular skill set at an above-Primarch level).
Considering (SPOILER) the one Phoenix Lord in a certain novel gets killed by a slow swinging dreadnought power fist...I don't think they're anything as powerful as a Primarch. I do think that they could easily out-do a Primarch in their dedicated discipline though.
Wasn't that more of a sacrifice to save someone else than actually losing a fight?
While Phoenix Lords are more important than Primarchs to their people imo they're much more about cultural change than Primarchs so they probably would lose fights.
Well, story-wise it's obvious that a Primarch will beat anything in the 40K universe. I mean in an unbiased, not-writing-Space-Marine-novels version of the universe.
There is a big difference between demon primarchs and loyalist primarchs. The demon ones are more powerful in combat while the loyalist ones (if girly man) is an indication will most likely be better at buffing.
While Abby did kill a clone of horus, keep in mind that it was not a chaos infused clone (demon primarch). I dont think he could even stand up to Magnus in close combat (the weakest of the demon primarchs in close combat aside from Lorgar) let alone survive Magnus's fluff smite bombs.
I have not read any recent lore so I cannot speak to Mortys fluff but in WoM they have Magnus destroying Storm Ravens in one smite and wiping out whole squads with one attack.
Unless Wrath of Magnus was OTT then I can safely say a demon primarch can beat even greater demons easily. Which would make sense fluff wise since they are their gods semi mortal champions.
Lum wrote: The Beast (huge old Ork) apparently had a good fisticuffs with Vulkan, so I guess if Ghazkull continues to eat his veggies he just might grow into a adversary for the primarchs.
IMO ghazzy is meant to be a primeork already; in the art he's gotta be at least 20 feet tall. The guardsmen care barely reach his knee in depictions. I really hope he gets rules close to primarch level in the next codex.
Dr. Mills wrote: Constantin Valdor was sparring with a pre chaos corrupted Hours, and and even though Hours won, the he said "It was the toughest fight of my life"
I highlighted the word sparring as that's an important distinction here. Spars tend to be orignized bouts with certain rules. one of them useally being to first blood or a score of points. (when I did Karate as a kid it was always to 3 points for example) in that case it all comes down to weapons skill, which does diminish one of the biiiig advantages a primarch has over a custodes. a custodes for example is T5 S5, whereas Gulliman is T6 S6, making him both stronger and tougher then a custodes. thing is, toughness matters very little in a spar because a hit is a hit. likewise strength isn't that important. so two of the big advantages a primarch would have "in the field" over a custodes they'd not have in a spar situation. so yeah I could see Constain Valdor winning a spar even if he was outclassed in a "real life situation"
He floored the old super smurf. I do not think he would have stood a chance vs Guliman, at least then. But in theory Swarm Lord should have learned some new tricks in the 100 year jump. I was actually hoping they would have beefed him up for 8th edition.
I can never decide of the swarmlord is a 'lead from the front' kind of warlord. He is not afraid of getting his hands dirty. But when it came to fighting the avatar of khain, he just threw a handfull of carnifexes at the avatar and called it a day.
An Avatar of Khaine should be able to if it wasn't made to be the eternally jobbing buttmonkey of the 40k universe.
Phoenix Lords should be comparable in terms of skill and fighting ability, but would be more limited by their generally unmodified Eldar physiology, as opposed to the artificially developed roidbeast demigod frames of the Primarchs. Thankfully for the Phoenix Lords, however, they never die. Only the actors that play them.
Greater daemons also tend to be on similar levels of raw power, although that would likely vary greatly based on the individual daemon and the powers used to bind them to realspace.
C'tan shards are probably pretty big deals, but Necron fluff hasn't counted since third edition.
Abbadon can beat Guilliman if he swings first... Abbadon has a ridiculous number of attacks hitting on 2+ and rerolling failed hits... if enough get through Roboute’s 3++ it can happen. Of course there’s the chance he will get back up again but at least he can only do that once at best.
I'm curious to why people keep saying lorgar was the weakest primarchs in close combat? Most reluctant sure, but having read his books and seen him fling large stone blocks around killing warhounds and tanks etc.... well, that doesn't seem weak, unless we are saying no psy powers?
Abaddon killed the clone of horus, and that was before he was the mortal champion of the ruinous powers. So if any Space marine could do it, it's probably him.
Question is though how close to Horus that clone was. Primarch aren't just gene-engineered marvels but had power of chaos inserted to them. Just cloning genes and building body wouldn't be enough to recreate one. You would need chaos gods to provide the warp boost they provided originally. That's why it requires something pretty special to deal with one.
Dr. Mills wrote: Constantin Valdor was sparring with a pre chaos corrupted Hours, and and even though Hours won, the he said "It was the toughest fight of my life"
I highlighted the word sparring as that's an important distinction here. Spars tend to be orignized bouts with certain rules. one of them useally being to first blood or a score of points. (when I did Karate as a kid it was always to 3 points for example) in that case it all comes down to weapons skill, which does diminish one of the biiiig advantages a primarch has over a custodes. a custodes for example is T5 S5, whereas Gulliman is T6 S6, making him both stronger and tougher then a custodes. thing is, toughness matters very little in a spar because a hit is a hit. likewise strength isn't that important. so two of the big advantages a primarch would have "in the field" over a custodes they'd not have in a spar situation. so yeah I could see Constain Valdor winning a spar even if he was outclassed in a "real life situation"
Mind you marine sparring is "bit" different than our karate classes. In HH books it's noted they are lot more serious with real threat of death in them.
Abaddon killed the clone of horus, and that was before he was the mortal champion of the ruinous powers. So if any Space marine could do it, it's probably him.
I've only read a small excerpt of "The Talon of Horus", the book in which this 'fight' occurs, and it doesn't seem to be a battle per se.
Clone horus approaches Abaddon, seemingly unarmoured, and gets sucker punched through the chest with the eponymous talon while attempting to reconnect with his lost 'son'. Followed up with a few bolt shells to his chest and neck from the attached bolt weapon.
Current setting Abaddon vs 30k Horus would be a no contest win for Horus, probably any primarch to be honest.
ballzonya wrote: SO what 40k character in the fluff can go toe to toe with the Primarchs or at least come close to it. I have a felling abbadon can kill at least one of them maybe in combat, possibly logar.
I'm assuming toe to toe doesn't mean completely mano-a-mano unprepared- ie if Stark gets to wear his armour, Wayne gets at least a few hours of brooding in front of the computer (preptime)
(Otherwise nude gulliman vs anything with a ranged attack)
Marbo has already been stated and I would submit there's a number of Tanith 1st(and only) who would have a good chance.
in a similar vein, Ahriman has enslaved greater daemons- a daemon primarch shouldn't be that much harder. Cain at a stretch- but he'd need Amberly to requisition a necron-pokeball or some other gimmick.
by extension- any inquisitor with access to the right tools- there are relic weapons like entropic accellerators etc that could kill a primarch in one shot. Enough combat drugs/psychic powers and you'd be able to keep up with a primarch's super-human speed and you could land a hit with some improbable dark age/xenos/daemon weapon and just end it.
Weaponising common stasis tech is another ploy- that either requires preptime or specialised equipment. Get the primarch to stand on the carbon freezer/stasis projector and turn it on. Fire his now time frozen body into a star on an unguided missile.
Niiai wrote: not ingame, but how about the swarmlord?
He floored the old super smurf. I do not think he would have stood a chance vs Guliman, at least then. But in theory Swarm Lord should have learned some new tricks in the 100 year jump. I was actually hoping they would have beefed him up for 8th edition.
I can never decide of the swarmlord is a 'lead from the front' kind of warlord. He is not afraid of getting his hands dirty. But when it came to fighting the avatar of khain, he just threw a handfull of carnifexes at the avatar and called it a day.
The Swarmlord isn't really either. It's a "what's the best way to win" warlord. If duelling the enemy Captain will do more damage it'll duel but if it's better to send a stampede of Carnifexes then that's what will happen.
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Formosa wrote: I'm curious to why people keep saying lorgar was the weakest primarchs in close combat? Most reluctant sure, but having read his books and seen him fling large stone blocks around killing warhounds and tanks etc.... well, that doesn't seem weak, unless we are saying no psy powers?
None of those things sound like stuff only Lorgar can do. What I know of Lorgar is that he is the weakest Primarch. He can still do a lot of damage because he's a Primarch but he's the weakest one.
Lorgar, after his Ascendancy to Daemonhood, apparently got a lot stronger afterwards due to his connection with it. At least that's the vibe I get from reading stuff.
Niiai wrote: not ingame, but how about the swarmlord?
He floored the old super smurf. I do not think he would have stood a chance vs Guliman, at least then. But in theory Swarm Lord should have learned some new tricks in the 100 year jump. I was actually hoping they would have beefed him up for 8th edition.
I can never decide of the swarmlord is a 'lead from the front' kind of warlord. He is not afraid of getting his hands dirty. But when it came to fighting the avatar of khain, he just threw a handfull of carnifexes at the avatar and called it a day.
Nah, Dante defeats the Swarmlord 1v1 in Devastation of Baal. He doesn't stand a chance against a primarch.
Table wrote: There is a big difference between demon primarchs and loyalist primarchs. The demon ones are more powerful in combat while the loyalist ones (if girly man) is an indication will most likely be better at buffing.
While Abby did kill a clone of horus, keep in mind that it was not a chaos infused clone (demon primarch). I dont think he could even stand up to Magnus in close combat (the weakest of the demon primarchs in close combat aside from Lorgar) let alone survive Magnus's fluff smite bombs.
I have not read any recent lore so I cannot speak to Mortys fluff but in WoM they have Magnus destroying Storm Ravens in one smite and wiping out whole squads with one attack.
Unless Wrath of Magnus was OTT then I can safely say a demon primarch can beat even greater demons easily. Which would make sense fluff wise since they are their gods semi mortal champions.
...and yet magnus the demon prince was made to kneel before Abaddon. Understand Abaddon is a unique story in all of 40k in that he is a self made man. He isn't the warmaster because daddy had a chemistry set and made him a 14 foot tall demigod, he is the warmaster because he won the war of the nine legions, beating the best of the traitor legions and the remaining primarchs. He isn't the mortal agent of chaos undivided because they picked him out of a hat, he earned every god's favor and he did so without becoming their slave. He is also the one russ prophesied to tear the emperor off of his golden throne and cast him down. As I said if any space marine can do it, it's Abaddon.
Bloodthirster Ka'Bahnda was victorious first time against Sanguinius so Ann'grath or Skarbrand should be able to
Avatar of Khaine SHOULD be able to, but Lorgar or Fulgrim killed one in a duel.
Any other Primarch should be able to go toe to toe with a Primarch. Unless your name is:
Ferrus Manus (Fulgrim)
Magnus (Russ)
Alpharius (Gulliman)
Others who should be able to take on a Primarch:
Abaddon (with all Marks of Chaos and Drachnyen)
Kaldor Draigo (overcame Mortarion and carved "Kaldo waz ere" on his heart)
Anyone with a Murder Sword..
=Angel= wrote: (Otherwise nude gulliman vs anything with a ranged attack)
Which incidentally he has survived. Outnumbered.
Marbo has already been stated and I would submit there's a number of Tanith 1st(and only) who would have a good chance.
IG trooper? Vs primarch? Lol. We are talking about beings that can go man to man vs TITAN. Good luck Marbo fighting 1 vs 1 vs titan and come out on top.
Any other Primarch should be able to go toe to toe with a Primarch. Unless your name is:
Ferrus Manus (Fulgrim)
Magnus (Russ)
Alpharius (Gulliman)
Umm primarch are generally recognized as pretty much only ones who CAN kill primarch down. Who wins against whom isn't as clear cut. Some might have better shot but differences are so small that nobody is totally outclassed by others. Even weakest of primarch CAN win and kill strongest primarch(fluffwise speaking. Gamewise it's more clear cut who can realistically kill whom but game stats are poor representations anyway)
Abaddon killed the clone of horus, and that was before he was the mortal champion of the ruinous powers. So if any Space marine could do it, it's probably him.
I think this demonstrates plot armor. Obviously, the clone wasn't at Horus' peak level of skill/equipment/chaos infusion, but it does show that a suitably experienced veteran chapter master type space marines could kill 'a' primarch, but not one of 'the' primarchs. The 18/19/20/21 'named' primarchs are all too important to be just beaten off in most encounters.
If a slew of new no-name primarchs were created, I'm sure a bunch of them would get whupped by farseer / phoenix lord / named dreadnought type characters. The originals are too important (before considering their experience, training and equipment is en pointe).
Abaddon killed the clone of horus, and that was before he was the mortal champion of the ruinous powers. So if any Space marine could do it, it's probably him.
I think this demonstrates plot armor. Obviously, the clone wasn't at Horus' peak level of skill/equipment/chaos infusion, but it does show that a suitably experienced veteran chapter master type space marines could kill 'a' primarch, but not one of 'the' primarchs. The 18/19/20/21 'named' primarchs are all too important to be just beaten off in most encounters.
If a slew of new no-name primarchs were created, I'm sure a bunch of them would get whupped by farseer / phoenix lord / named dreadnought type characters. The originals are too important (before considering their experience, training and equipment is en pointe).
And again was the clone given same chaos god provided boost all primarch were given when they were originally created? If not then the clone Horus was just pale comparison.
tneva82 wrote: IG trooper? Vs primarch? Lol. We are talking about beings that can go man to man vs TITAN. Good luck Marbo fighting 1 vs 1 vs titan and come out on top.
You're right, this is not a fair fight. Marbo should have to fight against an entire titan legion plus supporting forces, just to make things interesting.
(Yes, this is a thread about primarchs, but even all 20 primarchs vs. Marbo is a pretty dull question. Marbo won't even run out of pistol ammunition and demolition charges before they're all dead.)
tneva82 wrote: IG trooper? Vs primarch? Lol. We are talking about beings that can go man to man vs TITAN. Good luck Marbo fighting 1 vs 1 vs titan and come out on top.
If Marbo can open the lid, I think he wins the pilot, which stops the titan. Just sayin'
tneva82 wrote: IG trooper? Vs primarch? Lol. We are talking about beings that can go man to man vs TITAN. Good luck Marbo fighting 1 vs 1 vs titan and come out on top.
You're right, this is not a fair fight. Marbo should have to fight against an entire titan legion plus supporting forces, just to make things interesting.
(Yes, this is a thread about primarchs, but even all 20 primarchs vs. Marbo is a pretty dull question. Marbo won't even run out of pistol ammunition and demolition charges before they're all dead.)
I guess you didn't even bother to read what the thread is about:
SO what 40k character in the fluff can go toe to toe with the Primarchs or at least come close to it. I have a felling abbadon can kill at least one of them maybe in combat, possibly logar.
We are talking about fluff wise rather than game rules which are poor pale comparison for sake of being able to sell more models(GW would have trouble selling tons of space marines when 5 tacticals would be army on their own right!).
But even game wise. Malbro comes in, throws demolition charge. Primarch not fazed much. Likely kills. Even if not Malbro gets back into shadows, comes, repeat. That go back into shadows is once per game ability so is out in the open for Primarch to tear him open. And titan will simply vaporize him in one round of shooting anyway. We aren't talking about somebody with 2++ rerollable with bazillion wounds. It's still just one guy.
Horus would have field day. Whatever he did in 7th ed he comes in, drops demo charge. Horus laughs with his 3++. Even if gets through 1 through. Boo hoo. Then drops in S10 AP2 pie plate and storm bolter. Demo one use only. Good luck killing him.
And doubtful 8th ed helps much especially since the go back to shadows is once per game ability...You struggle to kill any primarch with that and then you are screwed. And of course titan will have LOS pretty much anywhere being so frigging tall and then once you have set up blast away. For example 2d3 shots hitting on 2+, wounding on 2+ and 2d6 damage will pretty much vaporize him in one go. If not? Well even getting hit twice by demo's(max in game) isn't scary for somebody with dozens and dozens of wounds.
So you failed both on fluff side(where primarch are noted as only ones capable of actually killing one. Remember they aren't just genetically enchanced super super warriors but chaos boosted things. They are basically daemon princes ALREADY when they were created powered up by warp) and on game rules wise.
tneva82 wrote: We are talking about fluff wise rather than game rules which are poor pale comparison for sake of being able to sell more models
I know, and so am I. In game rules the 20 primarchs will probably beat Marbo. In the fluff Marbo will annihilate them effortlessly. The only question is whether Marbo kills them up close and personal with his pistol and knife, or just blows them up from a distance.
Gulliman was almost killed by 5 marines with bolters, without his armour.
It's outright stated that had he not twigged they had their weapons loaded, safeties off and helmets on, then dived for cover, he would be dead.
Marbo is objectively more dangerous than 5 alphalegionnaires in the fluff. You'd find gulliman stranded in a jungle when his thunder hawk crashed due to mechanical errors, no survivors except the big guy.
Gulliman would be low on ammunition after fighting several carnosaurs and terradon flocks when the ground suddenly gives way beneath him. Lashing out with his limbs he manages to brace himself against the walls of a pit trap, arresting his fall to diamond hard teeth and claws arrayed below.
Unable to move, he feels something drop into his back and a blade moves like lightning across his throat. His nerves are suddenly aflame as his physiology furiously fights what must surely be the second most deadly venom he has ever encountered.
Sweating and dizzy he barely registers that the weight on his back has lifted, but as his head clears he hears the spark of severed cables and knows by the slack he feels that his armour is now dead weight.
Curiously, his beacon still functions. He can sense its radio pulse with his superhuman senses. It is only a matter of time before Ultramarines will find him...
Marbo waits high above in a gnarled branch. The charges are set and the bait is ready.
Since we're talking fluff here only the pinnacle character in the faction will be able to stand up to the nigh impenetrable plot armour that the Primarchs enjoy.
I'm not going to do adversaries that could go "toe to toe" with a Primarch as that is incredibly subjective and would be entirely dependent on circumstances. Instead I'm going to do a list of those characters that might survive an encounter with one.
I might have forgotten some but that'll do for now.
There's also certain adversaries that are virtually certain to lose when fighting a Primarch, largely because they have some sort of resurrection plot. Things such as;
Broodlord
Any named Greater Daemon, particularly Skarbrand
Necron characters
Niiai wrote: not ingame, but how about the swarmlord?
He floored the old super smurf. I do not think he would have stood a chance vs Guliman, at least then. But in theory Swarm Lord should have learned some new tricks in the 100 year jump. I was actually hoping they would have beefed him up for 8th edition.
I can never decide of the swarmlord is a 'lead from the front' kind of warlord. He is not afraid of getting his hands dirty. But when it came to fighting the avatar of khain, he just threw a handfull of carnifexes at the avatar and called it a day.
Nah, Dante defeats the Swarmlord 1v1 in Devastation of Baal. He doesn't stand a chance against a primarch.
Technically The Swarmlord defeats Dante, and then Dante’s melta defeats the Swarmlord. Which is fine
Swarmlord could in theory since whilst its a constant unique rebirth it also adapts like anything in the Swarm. So in theory it might lose once or twice, but each time would come back stronger and better attuned to defeating a Primarchs. So In theory it could reach a point where it evolves and adapts enough to be a serious threat against one; whilst the Primarch's only best defence would be to keep swapping Primarch or swamping swarmy with other things.
However in the fluff/lore the rebirth mechanic of Tyranids works against them. You can build any Tyranid up into a monster of power and destruction and then kill it off with something even more deadly. The Tyranids lose nothing since the unit will be reborn; whilst the enemy gets to wear the mantel of being more powerful than the super powerful Tyranid.
For that reason alone Swarmy deserves to kill something big and powerful (although one could argue Tyranids sort of did do that when they ate the Squats - or at least most of them).
40k reminds me quite a bit of marvel with its scaling of power. The primarchs are beyond mortal scaling and are galaxy-wide powers.
Other things on that scale:
Beast level orks
Eldrad/Phoenix lords/avatar
C'tan
Swarmlord (as an extension of the hivemind will)
Greater daemons
Reaver+ scale titans
Necron orrey of stars thingy
Abbadon is still just a space marine. When he killed the clone of Horus it was a soulless shell that could barely form words, don't think that counts
I have only heard of that in a previous Necron codex. Unless it was changed in a novel, for example, it's power was to be able to cause stars to die or explode "thousands of years before their time". Oh No! The Power!!!
Seriously I fail to see how something that has such a small effect it cannot be practically observed could threaten a Primarch...unless they were hanging around near a star that was right on the brink of going supernova, confident that they would have thousands of years of warning...
ChazSexington wrote: ...Avatars of Khaine have no chance. Beating an Avatar to pulp is Primarch 101...
This is actually kind of a weird point; the Avatar got used as the fluff punching bag to demonstrate how badass Marine characters are for a long time and there's a lot more lore showing off how badass Marines are than how badass Avatars are, so you may end up with different answers depending on whether you go from the general hierarchy logic (where an Avatar of Khaine is supposedly on par with a Greater Daemon and thus is at least in the same weight class) or from their typical depictions in other peoples' Codexes (getting casually punched out by a worn-out Calgar).
The most prominent impression the Avatar has left in my mind is the bossfights in the Dawn of War II campaigns, where it's a horrifying nightmare of a grind that casually wipes the floor with whatever gets thrown at it, and I know that the Dawn of War games aren't properly canon but that's the most like a splinter of a god of war that the Avatar has ever felt to me and on the basis of that I'd say it should be able to give a Primarch some trouble, but that's my impression and yours may differ.
I know Valdor has come up already but I would like to offer other Tribunes/named-badass Custodes for consideration; not for any specific textual reason, but for some contextual/logic reasons: first off the best warrior humanity has to offer is unlikely to be completely untouchable by the second-best, the Primarchs aren't super-epic killing machines that have jumped a thousand power levels to where they're utterly unstoppable, they're better but it doesn't seem credible that they're so much better as to render Custodians a complete non-issue and such that nothing fills the gap between them. There's also the question of how the Imperium deals with Primarch-tier threats (Greater Daemons) without having a Primarch to throw at them; if the Primarchs were the only answer to that kind of thing the Imperium would have gotten squished long ago, which implies that things that aren't Primarchs who can deal with that tier exist. And outside the easy "orbital strikes/titan guns" solution and the Grey Knights loaded down with specialized anti-daemon tricks the Custodes are the most likely place (to me) that something like that would exist. The other problem is that the point of having the Custodians as the last line of defense/most loyal enforcers is sort of defeated if you can then go and build something that could casually brush them aside; I'm aware the Emperor didn't foresee the Heresy, but I see him as the paranoid sort who wouldn't put all his trust in one project rather than the sort who would build the Primarchs as his greatest champions and then have nothing left up his sleeve if something went wrong.
I would also suggest that Mechanicus/Dark Mechanicus bigwigs might be able to put up a good fight; the Primarchs are awesome, yes, but going back to Horus on Davin and the anathame we've got a Primarch seriously wounded by a piece of arbitrary xenotech. Not a specific special epic daemon weapon holding a scary-ass Greater Daemon, not even (as far as we know) a Warp-tainted thing, but a kind of xenotech sword of which a bunch of other examples existed that's described in the books in a way that could imply daemonic involvement but could just as easily imply some kind of poorly-understood nanotech from a forgotten age. And if anyone's got a huge trove of arbitrary xenotech, poorly-understood nanotech from a forgotten age, and Warp-tainted stuff capable of ruining a Primarch's day lying around, and the capacity to build some kind of fancy robot body with which to fight Primarchs (the Archimandrite in Master of Mankind, Scoria on the tabletop) it's the Adeptus Mechanicus/Dark Mechanicus.
And this one is entirely conjecture, utterly unsupported on the tabletop, and I don't really believe it myself, but it is worth mentioning that in Nemesis Malcador and Valdor deploy an Assassinorium kill-squad (one Assassin from each of the six temples, including the two secret ones with no models) to kill Horus. I expect Malcador and Valdor of all people who aren't the Emperor or another Primarch to have a decent idea of what it'd take to kill a Primarch, and they don't send out six Assassins here as some kind of joke or because they're running out of ideas and don't really care if the Assassins all die, they expect them to have a chance of success.
The only reason Primarchs appear as powerfull as they are is plot armour. As others have said, a poisoned blade nearly killed Horus.
I remember a tale in the old fantasy army book for the Empire. How they talked about a proud Chaos Lord in a giant two headed dragon, killing thousands of mens without anyone being able to fight him. Empire Generals in gryphons, Bretonian Lords, etc... nothing could won agaisnt him.
Until he and his horde siegued Middelheim, and a Nuln Cannon, with a single shot, decapitated one of the two heads of his Chaos Dragon, killing it and the Chaos Lord in the process when he felt form the skies.
The same thing happens with Primarchs. They are very powerfull, and have a ton of plot armour. But in reality, many things can kill them.
Is just like marines, yeah they are very very powerfull. with very powerfull equipement. But a shot with a bolter in the head still kills them if they don't wear a helmet or some kind of energy field.
Niiai wrote:Is dante that much better then magnus calgar? Calgar got stomped.
Also, ingame, how does the math between dante come out? Being 12w T7, 3++ what does dante bring to the table?
Edit, looked up dante. There is no way he goes 1 on 1 with the swarmlord. Guliman could be taken, but that resurection is mighty dangerus.
I beg to differ.
Calgar was beaten down at Cold Steel Ridge. The SECOND time they fought, Calgar tore the Swarmlord limb from limb at the battle of Ichar IV. I readily believe that Dante could do it too. If Calgar can, Guilliman certainly could. Swarmlord is certainly good, but not Primarch good, not as we've seen it.
Lord Rust wrote:an imperial bureaucrat
infused with the power of chaos
and the right knife
nearly killed Horus
Firstly, you're vastly understating what the situation was.
This was an Imperial Army General, who had been given the governship of Davin, not just a bureaucrat.
Second, "the right knife" is a massive understatement. This was the Anatheme, a weapon pretty much designed to kill Primarchs. It's one of the few things in the galaxy that could do it. It's like saying "I can stop this bomb with just a shard of metal!" - the wirecutters for the bomb are deisgned specifically for it, not just shards of metal.
Galas wrote: The only reason Primarchs appear as powerfull as they are is plot armour. As others have said, a poisoned blade nearly killed Horus.
I remember a tale in the old fantasy army book for the Empire. How they talked about a proud Chaos Lord in a giant two headed dragon, killing thousands of mens without anyone being able to fight him. Empire Generals in gryphons, Bretonian Lords, etc... nothing could won agaisnt him.
Until he and his horde siegued Middelheim, and a Nuln Cannon, with a single shot, decapitated one of the two heads of his Chaos Dragon, killing it and the Chaos Lord in the process when he felt form the skies.
The same thing happens with Primarchs. They are very powerfull, and have a ton of plot armour. But in reality, many things can kill them.
Is just like marines, yeah they are very very powerfull. with very powerfull equipement. But a shot with a bolter in the head still kills them if they don't wear a helmet or some kind of energy field.
Agreed. Guilliman is nearly killed by a squad of Alpha Legion assassins when he's unarmed and unarmoured in his chamber. Of course, he survives, but by the skin of his teeth. If the Alpha Legion didn't believe they could kill him like that, or Malcador that an Execution Force of Assassins for Horus, or Russ with a squad of Space Wolves watching over each loyalist Primarch, why would they have sent them on that task?
Primarchs are damn good, they really are, but they're not immortal.
Niiai wrote:Is dante that much better then magnus calgar? Calgar got stomped.
Also, ingame, how does the math between dante come out? Being 12w T7, 3++ what does dante bring to the table?
Edit, looked up dante. There is no way he goes 1 on 1 with the swarmlord. Guliman could be taken, but that resurection is mighty dangerus.
I beg to differ.
Calgar was beaten down at Cold Steel Ridge. The SECOND time they fought, Calgar tore the Swarmlord limb from limb at the battle of Ichar IV. I readily believe that Dante could do it too. If Calgar can, Guilliman certainly could. Swarmlord is certainly good, but not Primarch good, not as we've seen it.
Lord Rust wrote:an imperial bureaucrat
infused with the power of chaos
and the right knife
nearly killed Horus
Firstly, you're vastly understating what the situation was.
This was an Imperial Army General, who had been given the governship of Davin, not just a bureaucrat.
Second, "the right knife" is a massive understatement. This was the Anatheme, a weapon pretty much designed to kill Primarchs. It's one of the few things in the galaxy that could do it. It's like saying "I can stop this bomb with just a shard of metal!" - the wirecutters for the bomb are deisgned specifically for it, not just shards of metal.
I though that the swarmlord only had the one scuff with the smurf? When did they fight the second time? All I found on wiki was this. As far as I know he got bailed out by the honour guard.
745.M41 - Battle of Macragge, Battle of Cold Steel Ridge - The Swarmlord directed Hive Fleet Behemoth to defeat every one of Marneus Calgar's and the Ultramarines' tactics. Calgar himself was almost killed by the Swarmlord, but managed to escape alive with the help of his Honour Guard while the Swarmlord killed the Commander of the Guard Aloyseus.
745.M41 - Battle of Macragge, Battle of the Polar Fortresses - The Swarmlord lead the attack on the Polar Fortresses of Macragge defended by Captain Invictus of the Ultramarines' 1st Company. In the end, the entire 1st Company was killed and official Imperial reports listed the Swarmlord as slain.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: ...Second, "the right knife" is a massive understatement. This was the Anatheme, a weapon pretty much designed to kill Primarchs. It's one of the few things in the galaxy that could do it. It's like saying "I can stop this bomb with just a shard of metal!" - the wirecutters for the bomb are deisgned specifically for it, not just shards of metal.
Minor correction: Change that from "the Anathame" to "an anathame"; it was a class of weapon, not a special super-weapon. And "designed to kill Primarchs" is kind of a silly exaggeration given that anathames were made by the kinebrach as early as M.15 (read: 15,000 years before there was such a thing as a Primarch).
The swarmlord is a fluff punching bag. The thing where it gets re-created every time it dies is just an excuse to give every big hero character a story where they kill it.
When it was first introduced in 5th edition it came with the cold steel ridge story to make it seem super badass. But then the next space marine codex featured Calgar showing up later on in a different battle and slapping it down in 1v1 combat. Cassius kills it. Dante kills it. I'm pretty sure the eldar have Yriel kill it (although to be fair it doesn't outright say that was the swarmlord. Just an abnormally powerful hive tyrant) I think there are others too.
There's a trope for the badass character that exists only to make other characters look better by defeating it ('Holy gak he defeated the swarmlord! What a dude!'). But I can't be bothered looking up the name.
Arson Fire wrote: The swarmlord is a fluff punching bag.
The thing where it gets re-created every time it dies is just an excuse to give every big hero character a story where they kill it.
When it was first introduced in 5th edition it came with the cold steel ridge story to make it seem super badass.
But then the next space marine codex featured Calgar showing up later on in a different battle and slapping it down in 1v1 combat.
Cassius kills it.
Dante kills it.
I'm pretty sure the eldar have Yriel kill it (although to be fair it doesn't outright say that was the swarmlord. Just an abnormally powerful hive tyrant)
I think there are others too.
There's a trope for the badass character that exists only to make other characters look better by defeating it ('Holy gak he defeated the swarmlord! What a dude!'). But I can't be bothered looking up the name.
The Swarmlord and the Avatar of Khaine are the Worf's of 40k. Bloodthirsters and Bretonnian Grial Knights where the Fantasy equivalent. If you want some hero to be proven has a badasss, just have him killing a Bloodthirster. By the same logic, if you want one of those elite cavalry units 7th and 8th introduced to the game feel OP (Ogre Mourfang Cavalry, Vampire Counts Bloodknights, Empire Demigryphs knights etc...), make them be even better than Bretonnian Grial Knights, the "Best cavalry of the world"
Used regularly in Warhammer 40,000 fluff and books. If the faction's in the pages of a Codex, but not on the cover, you'd better believe they'll be getting their asses kicked by whomever isnote . This can naturally lead to problems when the development cycle leaves factions Out of Focus for years to accumulate a long string of defeats, with no victories to counteract them.
-The most consistently Worfed thing in 40k has to be the the Avatar of Khaine, the physical embodiment of the Eldar's god of war. To date the Avatar has been killed by two different Primarchs (one of whom somehow strangled a giant animated statue of molten metal), a Greater Daemon of Slaanesh (via possession, somehow), Marneus Calgar of the Ultramarines, the Blood Angels' Sanguinor, twelve bum-rushing Tyranid Carnifexes, the Blood Ravens four times over the Dawn of War games, the Legion of the Damned who brought down a roof on it, and Maugan Ra, an Eldar.
-Materials can be Worfs too: Adamantium is only ever mentioned in terms of how a given weapon can effortlessly slice through it, while Terminator armor has a similar tendency to get ripped apart to show how dangerous a threat is.
Arson Fire wrote: The swarmlord is a fluff punching bag.
The thing where it gets re-created every time it dies is just an excuse to give every big hero character a story where they kill it.
When it was first introduced in 5th edition it came with the cold steel ridge story to make it seem super badass.
But then the next space marine codex featured Calgar showing up later on in a different battle and slapping it down in 1v1 combat.
Cassius kills it.
Dante kills it.
I'm pretty sure the eldar have Yriel kill it (although to be fair it doesn't outright say that was the swarmlord. Just an abnormally powerful hive tyrant)
I think there are others too.
There's a trope for the badass character that exists only to make other characters look better by defeating it ('Holy gak he defeated the swarmlord! What a dude!'). But I can't be bothered looking up the name.
I believe Yriel just killed a BIG Hive Tyrant but he made the Hive Mind scream in pain for the first time in centuries.
As others have said, the beast primork(s) was able to 1v1 Vulkan no problem and even had a slight advantage. Probably would have won had they not both fallen into a pit.
Other than that I can't really think of much. A fully pit together super up c'tan could probably beat any of them 1v1 (even daemon), but I'm lot an expert on necron lore.
Other than that I can't really think of much. A fully pit together super up c'tan could probably beat any of them 1v1 (even daemon), but I'm lot an expert on necron lore.
C'tan is necrontyr for "star god". A fully formed C'tan would simply kill a Primarch outright, given they have the ability to hurl anti-matter meteors or simply create a black hole whenever they please. A C'tan shard (going by lore) could no doubt take on a primarch.
=Angel= wrote: Gulliman was almost killed by 5 marines with bolters, without his armour.
It's outright stated that had he not twigged they had their weapons loaded, safeties off and helmets on, then dived for cover, he would be dead.
To be fair, Guilliman held off 10 Alpha Legion Marines, who were probably some of the best them had to offer.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Niiai wrote:I though that the swarmlord only had the one scuff with the smurf? When did they fight the second time? All I found on wiki was this. As far as I know he got bailed out by the honour guard.
745.M41 - Battle of Macragge, Battle of Cold Steel Ridge - The Swarmlord directed Hive Fleet Behemoth to defeat every one of Marneus Calgar's and the Ultramarines' tactics. Calgar himself was almost killed by the Swarmlord, but managed to escape alive with the help of his Honour Guard while the Swarmlord killed the Commander of the Guard Aloyseus.
745.M41 - Battle of Macragge, Battle of the Polar Fortresses - The Swarmlord lead the attack on the Polar Fortresses of Macragge defended by Captain Invictus of the Ultramarines' 1st Company. In the end, the entire 1st Company was killed and official Imperial reports listed the Swarmlord as slain.
The Battle of Ichar IV is the battle where Calgar ruins the Swarmlord.
AnomanderRake wrote:Minor correction: Change that from "the Anathame" to "an anathame"; it was a class of weapon, not a special super-weapon. And "designed to kill Primarchs" is kind of a silly exaggeration given that anathames were made by the kinebrach as early as M.15 (read: 15,000 years before there was such a thing as a Primarch).
I think you may have misinterpreted what I meant - that's my fault.
It wasn't made specifically to kill them, but it was exceptionally good at killing them. Again, semantics, so my bad.
Other than that I can't really think of much. A fully pit together super up c'tan could probably beat any of them 1v1 (even daemon), but I'm lot an expert on necron lore.
C'tan is necrontyr for "star god". A fully formed C'tan would simply kill a Primarch outright, given they have the ability to hurl anti-matter meteors or simply create a black hole whenever they please. A C'tan shard (going by lore) could no doubt take on a primarch.
That also means that any Wraithseer, Wraithguard, Wraithknight or anything else with a D weapon kills Primarchs easily.
I'd say one of the few things even a plot-armored primarch can't survive is some sort of focused psychic attack from the Hive Mind. From what I've heard, even the chaos gods do whatever they can to avoid the Shadow in the Warp, so I assume that a primarch wouldn't have much of a chance against it.
Other than that I can't really think of much. A fully pit together super up c'tan could probably beat any of them 1v1 (even daemon), but I'm lot an expert on necron lore.
C'tan is necrontyr for "star god". A fully formed C'tan would simply kill a Primarch outright, given they have the ability to hurl anti-matter meteors or simply create a black hole whenever they please. A C'tan shard (going by lore) could no doubt take on a primarch.
That also means that any Wraithseer, Wraithguard, Wraithknight or anything else with a D weapon kills Primarchs easily.
I'm not too sure about the power of their weapons, but I simply used in game ability names to illustrate the power of a C'tan Shard. A C'tan from the days of The War is on a whole different level, although I suppose your claim is true as well.
But as always "plot armour" will supercede anything in the fluff, regardless of power level.
Other than that I can't really think of much. A fully pit together super up c'tan could probably beat any of them 1v1 (even daemon), but I'm lot an expert on necron lore.
C'tan is necrontyr for "star god". A fully formed C'tan would simply kill a Primarch outright, given they have the ability to hurl anti-matter meteors or simply create a black hole whenever they please. A C'tan shard (going by lore) could no doubt take on a primarch.
That also means that any Wraithseer, Wraithguard, Wraithknight or anything else with a D weapon kills Primarchs easily.
I'm not too sure about the power of their weapons, but I simply used in game ability names to illustrate the power of a C'tan Shard. A C'tan from the days of The War is on a whole different level, although I suppose your claim is true as well.
But as always "plot armour" will supercede anything in the fluff, regardless of power level.
A D weapon sends bits of you into the Warp. Even Primarchs die when their chest becomes half hole half body.
I am totally rooting for Guilliman's swift demise! Preferably via assassination arranged by the Inquisition to prevent him from upsetting the status quo further.
I am totally rooting for Guilliman's swift demise! Preferably via assassination arranged by the Inquisition to prevent him from upsetting the status quo further.
doubt it'll happen. for a start GW WANTS Gulliman around to enable them to tweek the status Quo as needed
Well, he almost died from a poisoned bullet from Scaramanga, a car crash and a poisoned stiletto from a russian agent.
A poisoned bullet from Scaramanga? Did I miss something, or was this in some sort of spin off or comic??
It's from the book, not the film (the film has very little in common with the plot of the book, just like many of the film adaptions). Scaramanga shoots him with a concealed derringer after Bond has wounded him during their battle. Bond survives the bullet, shoots Scaramanga again and then passes out and would have died but for a passing policeman who gets him medical help.
Well in Horus Heresy rules Konrad Curze cannot kill Contemptor Dreadnought through shooting or melee attacks. Thus it is proven that a Contemptor Dreadnought can go toe to toe with atleast one specific Primarch.
EDIT:
Okey, considering toe-to-toe in strict sense, Konrad Curze cannot go toe-to-toe with a contemptor dreadnought because he would lose! If interpreting toe-to-toe to mean someone being able to challenge other one with non-zero chance of winning.
