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Niiai wrote: not ingame, but how about the swarmlord?
He floored the old super smurf. I do not think he would have stood a chance vs Guliman, at least then. But in theory Swarm Lord should have learned some new tricks in the 100 year jump. I was actually hoping they would have beefed him up for 8th edition.
I can never decide of the swarmlord is a 'lead from the front' kind of warlord. He is not afraid of getting his hands dirty. But when it came to fighting the avatar of khain, he just threw a handfull of carnifexes at the avatar and called it a day.
Nah, Dante defeats the Swarmlord 1v1 in Devastation of Baal. He doesn't stand a chance against a primarch.
Technically The Swarmlord defeats Dante, and then Dante’s melta defeats the Swarmlord. Which is fine
Swarmlord could in theory since whilst its a constant unique rebirth it also adapts like anything in the Swarm. So in theory it might lose once or twice, but each time would come back stronger and better attuned to defeating a Primarchs. So In theory it could reach a point where it evolves and adapts enough to be a serious threat against one; whilst the Primarch's only best defence would be to keep swapping Primarch or swamping swarmy with other things.
However in the fluff/lore the rebirth mechanic of Tyranids works against them. You can build any Tyranid up into a monster of power and destruction and then kill it off with something even more deadly. The Tyranids lose nothing since the unit will be reborn; whilst the enemy gets to wear the mantel of being more powerful than the super powerful Tyranid.
For that reason alone Swarmy deserves to kill something big and powerful (although one could argue Tyranids sort of did do that when they ate the Squats - or at least most of them).
40k reminds me quite a bit of marvel with its scaling of power. The primarchs are beyond mortal scaling and are galaxy-wide powers.
Other things on that scale:
Beast level orks
Eldrad/Phoenix lords/avatar
C'tan
Swarmlord (as an extension of the hivemind will)
Greater daemons
Reaver+ scale titans
Necron orrey of stars thingy
Abbadon is still just a space marine. When he killed the clone of Horus it was a soulless shell that could barely form words, don't think that counts
I have only heard of that in a previous Necron codex. Unless it was changed in a novel, for example, it's power was to be able to cause stars to die or explode "thousands of years before their time". Oh No! The Power!!!
Seriously I fail to see how something that has such a small effect it cannot be practically observed could threaten a Primarch...unless they were hanging around near a star that was right on the brink of going supernova, confident that they would have thousands of years of warning...
ChazSexington wrote: ...Avatars of Khaine have no chance. Beating an Avatar to pulp is Primarch 101...
This is actually kind of a weird point; the Avatar got used as the fluff punching bag to demonstrate how badass Marine characters are for a long time and there's a lot more lore showing off how badass Marines are than how badass Avatars are, so you may end up with different answers depending on whether you go from the general hierarchy logic (where an Avatar of Khaine is supposedly on par with a Greater Daemon and thus is at least in the same weight class) or from their typical depictions in other peoples' Codexes (getting casually punched out by a worn-out Calgar).
The most prominent impression the Avatar has left in my mind is the bossfights in the Dawn of War II campaigns, where it's a horrifying nightmare of a grind that casually wipes the floor with whatever gets thrown at it, and I know that the Dawn of War games aren't properly canon but that's the most like a splinter of a god of war that the Avatar has ever felt to me and on the basis of that I'd say it should be able to give a Primarch some trouble, but that's my impression and yours may differ.
I know Valdor has come up already but I would like to offer other Tribunes/named-badass Custodes for consideration; not for any specific textual reason, but for some contextual/logic reasons: first off the best warrior humanity has to offer is unlikely to be completely untouchable by the second-best, the Primarchs aren't super-epic killing machines that have jumped a thousand power levels to where they're utterly unstoppable, they're better but it doesn't seem credible that they're so much better as to render Custodians a complete non-issue and such that nothing fills the gap between them. There's also the question of how the Imperium deals with Primarch-tier threats (Greater Daemons) without having a Primarch to throw at them; if the Primarchs were the only answer to that kind of thing the Imperium would have gotten squished long ago, which implies that things that aren't Primarchs who can deal with that tier exist. And outside the easy "orbital strikes/titan guns" solution and the Grey Knights loaded down with specialized anti-daemon tricks the Custodes are the most likely place (to me) that something like that would exist. The other problem is that the point of having the Custodians as the last line of defense/most loyal enforcers is sort of defeated if you can then go and build something that could casually brush them aside; I'm aware the Emperor didn't foresee the Heresy, but I see him as the paranoid sort who wouldn't put all his trust in one project rather than the sort who would build the Primarchs as his greatest champions and then have nothing left up his sleeve if something went wrong.
I would also suggest that Mechanicus/Dark Mechanicus bigwigs might be able to put up a good fight; the Primarchs are awesome, yes, but going back to Horus on Davin and the anathame we've got a Primarch seriously wounded by a piece of arbitrary xenotech. Not a specific special epic daemon weapon holding a scary-ass Greater Daemon, not even (as far as we know) a Warp-tainted thing, but a kind of xenotech sword of which a bunch of other examples existed that's described in the books in a way that could imply daemonic involvement but could just as easily imply some kind of poorly-understood nanotech from a forgotten age. And if anyone's got a huge trove of arbitrary xenotech, poorly-understood nanotech from a forgotten age, and Warp-tainted stuff capable of ruining a Primarch's day lying around, and the capacity to build some kind of fancy robot body with which to fight Primarchs (the Archimandrite in Master of Mankind, Scoria on the tabletop) it's the Adeptus Mechanicus/Dark Mechanicus.
And this one is entirely conjecture, utterly unsupported on the tabletop, and I don't really believe it myself, but it is worth mentioning that in Nemesis Malcador and Valdor deploy an Assassinorium kill-squad (one Assassin from each of the six temples, including the two secret ones with no models) to kill Horus. I expect Malcador and Valdor of all people who aren't the Emperor or another Primarch to have a decent idea of what it'd take to kill a Primarch, and they don't send out six Assassins here as some kind of joke or because they're running out of ideas and don't really care if the Assassins all die, they expect them to have a chance of success.
The only reason Primarchs appear as powerfull as they are is plot armour. As others have said, a poisoned blade nearly killed Horus.
I remember a tale in the old fantasy army book for the Empire. How they talked about a proud Chaos Lord in a giant two headed dragon, killing thousands of mens without anyone being able to fight him. Empire Generals in gryphons, Bretonian Lords, etc... nothing could won agaisnt him.
Until he and his horde siegued Middelheim, and a Nuln Cannon, with a single shot, decapitated one of the two heads of his Chaos Dragon, killing it and the Chaos Lord in the process when he felt form the skies.
The same thing happens with Primarchs. They are very powerfull, and have a ton of plot armour. But in reality, many things can kill them.
Is just like marines, yeah they are very very powerfull. with very powerfull equipement. But a shot with a bolter in the head still kills them if they don't wear a helmet or some kind of energy field.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Niiai wrote:Is dante that much better then magnus calgar? Calgar got stomped.
Also, ingame, how does the math between dante come out? Being 12w T7, 3++ what does dante bring to the table?
Edit, looked up dante. There is no way he goes 1 on 1 with the swarmlord. Guliman could be taken, but that resurection is mighty dangerus.
I beg to differ.
Calgar was beaten down at Cold Steel Ridge. The SECOND time they fought, Calgar tore the Swarmlord limb from limb at the battle of Ichar IV. I readily believe that Dante could do it too. If Calgar can, Guilliman certainly could. Swarmlord is certainly good, but not Primarch good, not as we've seen it.
Lord Rust wrote:an imperial bureaucrat
infused with the power of chaos
and the right knife
nearly killed Horus
Firstly, you're vastly understating what the situation was.
This was an Imperial Army General, who had been given the governship of Davin, not just a bureaucrat.
Second, "the right knife" is a massive understatement. This was the Anatheme, a weapon pretty much designed to kill Primarchs. It's one of the few things in the galaxy that could do it. It's like saying "I can stop this bomb with just a shard of metal!" - the wirecutters for the bomb are deisgned specifically for it, not just shards of metal.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Galas wrote: The only reason Primarchs appear as powerfull as they are is plot armour. As others have said, a poisoned blade nearly killed Horus.
I remember a tale in the old fantasy army book for the Empire. How they talked about a proud Chaos Lord in a giant two headed dragon, killing thousands of mens without anyone being able to fight him. Empire Generals in gryphons, Bretonian Lords, etc... nothing could won agaisnt him.
Until he and his horde siegued Middelheim, and a Nuln Cannon, with a single shot, decapitated one of the two heads of his Chaos Dragon, killing it and the Chaos Lord in the process when he felt form the skies.
The same thing happens with Primarchs. They are very powerfull, and have a ton of plot armour. But in reality, many things can kill them.
Is just like marines, yeah they are very very powerfull. with very powerfull equipement. But a shot with a bolter in the head still kills them if they don't wear a helmet or some kind of energy field.
Agreed. Guilliman is nearly killed by a squad of Alpha Legion assassins when he's unarmed and unarmoured in his chamber. Of course, he survives, but by the skin of his teeth. If the Alpha Legion didn't believe they could kill him like that, or Malcador that an Execution Force of Assassins for Horus, or Russ with a squad of Space Wolves watching over each loyalist Primarch, why would they have sent them on that task?
Primarchs are damn good, they really are, but they're not immortal.
They/them
2018/03/01 01:43:23
Subject: Re:Who can go toe to toe with the primarchs
Niiai wrote:Is dante that much better then magnus calgar? Calgar got stomped.
Also, ingame, how does the math between dante come out? Being 12w T7, 3++ what does dante bring to the table?
Edit, looked up dante. There is no way he goes 1 on 1 with the swarmlord. Guliman could be taken, but that resurection is mighty dangerus.
I beg to differ.
Calgar was beaten down at Cold Steel Ridge. The SECOND time they fought, Calgar tore the Swarmlord limb from limb at the battle of Ichar IV. I readily believe that Dante could do it too. If Calgar can, Guilliman certainly could. Swarmlord is certainly good, but not Primarch good, not as we've seen it.
Lord Rust wrote:an imperial bureaucrat
infused with the power of chaos
and the right knife
nearly killed Horus
Firstly, you're vastly understating what the situation was.
This was an Imperial Army General, who had been given the governship of Davin, not just a bureaucrat.
Second, "the right knife" is a massive understatement. This was the Anatheme, a weapon pretty much designed to kill Primarchs. It's one of the few things in the galaxy that could do it. It's like saying "I can stop this bomb with just a shard of metal!" - the wirecutters for the bomb are deisgned specifically for it, not just shards of metal.
I though that the swarmlord only had the one scuff with the smurf? When did they fight the second time? All I found on wiki was this. As far as I know he got bailed out by the honour guard.
745.M41 - Battle of Macragge, Battle of Cold Steel Ridge - The Swarmlord directed Hive Fleet Behemoth to defeat every one of Marneus Calgar's and the Ultramarines' tactics. Calgar himself was almost killed by the Swarmlord, but managed to escape alive with the help of his Honour Guard while the Swarmlord killed the Commander of the Guard Aloyseus.
745.M41 - Battle of Macragge, Battle of the Polar Fortresses - The Swarmlord lead the attack on the Polar Fortresses of Macragge defended by Captain Invictus of the Ultramarines' 1st Company. In the end, the entire 1st Company was killed and official Imperial reports listed the Swarmlord as slain.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: ...Second, "the right knife" is a massive understatement. This was the Anatheme, a weapon pretty much designed to kill Primarchs. It's one of the few things in the galaxy that could do it. It's like saying "I can stop this bomb with just a shard of metal!" - the wirecutters for the bomb are deisgned specifically for it, not just shards of metal.
Minor correction: Change that from "the Anathame" to "an anathame"; it was a class of weapon, not a special super-weapon. And "designed to kill Primarchs" is kind of a silly exaggeration given that anathames were made by the kinebrach as early as M.15 (read: 15,000 years before there was such a thing as a Primarch).
The swarmlord is a fluff punching bag. The thing where it gets re-created every time it dies is just an excuse to give every big hero character a story where they kill it.
When it was first introduced in 5th edition it came with the cold steel ridge story to make it seem super badass. But then the next space marine codex featured Calgar showing up later on in a different battle and slapping it down in 1v1 combat. Cassius kills it. Dante kills it. I'm pretty sure the eldar have Yriel kill it (although to be fair it doesn't outright say that was the swarmlord. Just an abnormally powerful hive tyrant) I think there are others too.
There's a trope for the badass character that exists only to make other characters look better by defeating it ('Holy gak he defeated the swarmlord! What a dude!'). But I can't be bothered looking up the name.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/01 04:12:43
2018/03/01 04:50:28
Subject: Re:Who can go toe to toe with the primarchs
Arson Fire wrote: The swarmlord is a fluff punching bag.
The thing where it gets re-created every time it dies is just an excuse to give every big hero character a story where they kill it.
When it was first introduced in 5th edition it came with the cold steel ridge story to make it seem super badass.
But then the next space marine codex featured Calgar showing up later on in a different battle and slapping it down in 1v1 combat.
Cassius kills it.
Dante kills it.
I'm pretty sure the eldar have Yriel kill it (although to be fair it doesn't outright say that was the swarmlord. Just an abnormally powerful hive tyrant)
I think there are others too.
There's a trope for the badass character that exists only to make other characters look better by defeating it ('Holy gak he defeated the swarmlord! What a dude!'). But I can't be bothered looking up the name.
The Swarmlord and the Avatar of Khaine are the Worf's of 40k. Bloodthirsters and Bretonnian Grial Knights where the Fantasy equivalent. If you want some hero to be proven has a badasss, just have him killing a Bloodthirster. By the same logic, if you want one of those elite cavalry units 7th and 8th introduced to the game feel OP (Ogre Mourfang Cavalry, Vampire Counts Bloodknights, Empire Demigryphs knights etc...), make them be even better than Bretonnian Grial Knights, the "Best cavalry of the world"
Used regularly in Warhammer 40,000 fluff and books. If the faction's in the pages of a Codex, but not on the cover, you'd better believe they'll be getting their asses kicked by whomever isnote . This can naturally lead to problems when the development cycle leaves factions Out of Focus for years to accumulate a long string of defeats, with no victories to counteract them.
-The most consistently Worfed thing in 40k has to be the the Avatar of Khaine, the physical embodiment of the Eldar's god of war. To date the Avatar has been killed by two different Primarchs (one of whom somehow strangled a giant animated statue of molten metal), a Greater Daemon of Slaanesh (via possession, somehow), Marneus Calgar of the Ultramarines, the Blood Angels' Sanguinor, twelve bum-rushing Tyranid Carnifexes, the Blood Ravens four times over the Dawn of War games, the Legion of the Damned who brought down a roof on it, and Maugan Ra, an Eldar.
-Materials can be Worfs too: Adamantium is only ever mentioned in terms of how a given weapon can effortlessly slice through it, while Terminator armor has a similar tendency to get ripped apart to show how dangerous a threat is.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/01 04:53:09
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2018/03/01 10:02:25
Subject: Re:Who can go toe to toe with the primarchs
Arson Fire wrote: The swarmlord is a fluff punching bag.
The thing where it gets re-created every time it dies is just an excuse to give every big hero character a story where they kill it.
When it was first introduced in 5th edition it came with the cold steel ridge story to make it seem super badass.
But then the next space marine codex featured Calgar showing up later on in a different battle and slapping it down in 1v1 combat.
Cassius kills it.
Dante kills it.
I'm pretty sure the eldar have Yriel kill it (although to be fair it doesn't outright say that was the swarmlord. Just an abnormally powerful hive tyrant)
I think there are others too.
There's a trope for the badass character that exists only to make other characters look better by defeating it ('Holy gak he defeated the swarmlord! What a dude!'). But I can't be bothered looking up the name.
I believe Yriel just killed a BIG Hive Tyrant but he made the Hive Mind scream in pain for the first time in centuries.
It's called the Worf Effect.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
2018/03/03 08:09:21
Subject: Re:Who can go toe to toe with the primarchs
As others have said, the beast primork(s) was able to 1v1 Vulkan no problem and even had a slight advantage. Probably would have won had they not both fallen into a pit.
Other than that I can't really think of much. A fully pit together super up c'tan could probably beat any of them 1v1 (even daemon), but I'm lot an expert on necron lore.
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
2018/03/03 12:05:32
Subject: Re:Who can go toe to toe with the primarchs
Other than that I can't really think of much. A fully pit together super up c'tan could probably beat any of them 1v1 (even daemon), but I'm lot an expert on necron lore.
C'tan is necrontyr for "star god". A fully formed C'tan would simply kill a Primarch outright, given they have the ability to hurl anti-matter meteors or simply create a black hole whenever they please. A C'tan shard (going by lore) could no doubt take on a primarch.
=Angel= wrote: Gulliman was almost killed by 5 marines with bolters, without his armour.
It's outright stated that had he not twigged they had their weapons loaded, safeties off and helmets on, then dived for cover, he would be dead.
To be fair, Guilliman held off 10 Alpha Legion Marines, who were probably some of the best them had to offer.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Niiai wrote:I though that the swarmlord only had the one scuff with the smurf? When did they fight the second time? All I found on wiki was this. As far as I know he got bailed out by the honour guard.
745.M41 - Battle of Macragge, Battle of Cold Steel Ridge - The Swarmlord directed Hive Fleet Behemoth to defeat every one of Marneus Calgar's and the Ultramarines' tactics. Calgar himself was almost killed by the Swarmlord, but managed to escape alive with the help of his Honour Guard while the Swarmlord killed the Commander of the Guard Aloyseus.
745.M41 - Battle of Macragge, Battle of the Polar Fortresses - The Swarmlord lead the attack on the Polar Fortresses of Macragge defended by Captain Invictus of the Ultramarines' 1st Company. In the end, the entire 1st Company was killed and official Imperial reports listed the Swarmlord as slain.
The Battle of Ichar IV is the battle where Calgar ruins the Swarmlord.
AnomanderRake wrote:Minor correction: Change that from "the Anathame" to "an anathame"; it was a class of weapon, not a special super-weapon. And "designed to kill Primarchs" is kind of a silly exaggeration given that anathames were made by the kinebrach as early as M.15 (read: 15,000 years before there was such a thing as a Primarch).
I think you may have misinterpreted what I meant - that's my fault.
It wasn't made specifically to kill them, but it was exceptionally good at killing them. Again, semantics, so my bad.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/03 15:10:38
They/them
2018/03/03 17:37:11
Subject: Re:Who can go toe to toe with the primarchs
Other than that I can't really think of much. A fully pit together super up c'tan could probably beat any of them 1v1 (even daemon), but I'm lot an expert on necron lore.
C'tan is necrontyr for "star god". A fully formed C'tan would simply kill a Primarch outright, given they have the ability to hurl anti-matter meteors or simply create a black hole whenever they please. A C'tan shard (going by lore) could no doubt take on a primarch.
That also means that any Wraithseer, Wraithguard, Wraithknight or anything else with a D weapon kills Primarchs easily.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
2018/03/04 03:36:38
Subject: Re:Who can go toe to toe with the primarchs
I'd say one of the few things even a plot-armored primarch can't survive is some sort of focused psychic attack from the Hive Mind. From what I've heard, even the chaos gods do whatever they can to avoid the Shadow in the Warp, so I assume that a primarch wouldn't have much of a chance against it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/04 03:37:05
2018/03/04 08:39:26
Subject: Re:Who can go toe to toe with the primarchs
Other than that I can't really think of much. A fully pit together super up c'tan could probably beat any of them 1v1 (even daemon), but I'm lot an expert on necron lore.
C'tan is necrontyr for "star god". A fully formed C'tan would simply kill a Primarch outright, given they have the ability to hurl anti-matter meteors or simply create a black hole whenever they please. A C'tan shard (going by lore) could no doubt take on a primarch.
That also means that any Wraithseer, Wraithguard, Wraithknight or anything else with a D weapon kills Primarchs easily.
I'm not too sure about the power of their weapons, but I simply used in game ability names to illustrate the power of a C'tan Shard. A C'tan from the days of The War is on a whole different level, although I suppose your claim is true as well.
But as always "plot armour" will supercede anything in the fluff, regardless of power level.
Other than that I can't really think of much. A fully pit together super up c'tan could probably beat any of them 1v1 (even daemon), but I'm lot an expert on necron lore.
C'tan is necrontyr for "star god". A fully formed C'tan would simply kill a Primarch outright, given they have the ability to hurl anti-matter meteors or simply create a black hole whenever they please. A C'tan shard (going by lore) could no doubt take on a primarch.
That also means that any Wraithseer, Wraithguard, Wraithknight or anything else with a D weapon kills Primarchs easily.
I'm not too sure about the power of their weapons, but I simply used in game ability names to illustrate the power of a C'tan Shard. A C'tan from the days of The War is on a whole different level, although I suppose your claim is true as well.
But as always "plot armour" will supercede anything in the fluff, regardless of power level.
A D weapon sends bits of you into the Warp. Even Primarchs die when their chest becomes half hole half body.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
Or a Baneblade cannon round, etc. There are friggin' heaps of things which "should" kill a Primarch.