Evening everyone.

Just wanted to get a discussion regarding the Thousand Sons now that the book has been out for a little while.

What's everyone thoughts on how they are doing so far and if overall the book is solid and can be played in a competitive setting.

Also wanted to ask in terms of making a list for Thousand Sons, what is the best direction to go in for troops, and what unit size would be best?

Cheers

Codex tzeench deamonkin is doing ok, not amazing but works, sadly the thousand sons themselves are severely lacking.

You mean codex zangors, I do feel for thousand sons players who basically got told to replace their thousand sons, with an AOS army.

lol, I understand there is some hate for the tzangor elements, though my self I quite like the models overall.

While the codex is indeed tzangoor focus, I personally find that the actual TS section is pretty good.

Several strong units, tons of magic, multiple powerful stratagems, strong relics, strong traits

Its all around just GOOD.

Once you factor in goats, it becomes a seriously brutal codex.

I'm pleased with the codex overall. As BoomWolf said, there are alot of minor things about it that I like, that together makes for a solid codex:

- Warlord Traits? Really good.
- Relics? Really good.
- "Army tactics"? Good.
- Stratagems? Good.
- Psychic powers? Good.

In stark contrast with my Salamanders where I like their chapter tactics, but find the warlord traits/relics/psychic powers and stratagems to all be rather "meh".

Regular Rubric Marines are rather lackluster, but the codex still has many strong units (Daemon Princes, Ahriman, Tzaangors, Enlightened, Skyfires, Spawns, Scarab Occult Terminators, Mutaliths, etc.)

I will let you know after tomorrow lol. Taking a Tson army to a local tourney, no tzaangors of any kind. Rubrics, cultists, sorcerers, and spawns are the main body's of my army.

I like our options and our abilities, without of without the bird people. Sure the tzaangors seem to be the "pretty new focus" but they still work just fine without them.

Just wish rubrics were a bit cheaper. But what can you do :p

It's exactly what people expected/feared that it would be; an army with decent external balance, lots of fun tricks, and absolutely nothing to do with the book's title.
It continues the much-loved trend of CSM books since 4th edition whereby the best way to play the list is to ignore anything that resembles a CSM.

If you like the idea of a more LatD-style Chaos apocalypse uprising of cults, muties and daemon engines, it's a dream. Less so if you wanted anything in Power Armour.
As always, it's great for new players and a bit of a slap to anyone with an army from past editions.

Interesting replies.

If you was making a strong 2k list what do you think the must have units are to take?.

I'm assuming for anti tank maybe 3 predators with lascannon, and then troop wise 1 blob of say 25 or 30 tzangors, the remaining 2 cultists Or?

There are no must-have units really, it depends on your game plan.

The closest thing to mandatory I can think of is ahriman. and deamon princes. and termi sorcerers.
Basically, we are spoiled for good HQs.

I have mixed feelings on this codex release. Its no secret that MANY players dislike the tzaangor focus. I am one of them. Ill make a pro's and con's list for ease of reading.

Pro : Great HQ options. However there seems to be a internal balance issue between demon princes and exalted sorc's. There is just no real reason to take exalted sorcs in this codex unless you really need the 40 points it saves or 10 cultists.
Good access to chaos heavy choices. More on this in the cons.
Good stratagems changes how you play the army. Once more this is a double edged sword and more in the cons.
Access to three psyker lists. This will be even more important if the smite nerf comes to pass.
Very good assault options. I myself favor Enlightened over the basic Tzaangor bomb due to auto wounds. Enlightened Tzaangors can threaten light to medium vehicles as well as infantry.
Spawn now do serious work with the new 1cp stratagem. I love spawn models so this is a big bonus for me.
Solid soup ingredients in the form of anything but power armor.

Cons : Magnus is shelved in anything but a casual format. His nerfing along with the gutting of the changeling (demons) have made him to much of a liability when going second vs a alpha strike list. We will have to wait a few years to see if he is worth using again (next codex drop).
Our power armor is the weakest part of our codex. That is right. The weakest units we have are also the most iconic units. Leave the power armor at home for tourneys.
A few really bad stratagems like flesh change, soul and inferno bolts. What makes this really sad is that those three spaces could have been used for Rubric/SoC's stratagems, which we have none of currently.
Perils on aspiring sorcs on rubrics makes using powers to be a very big risk. Which negates the buff they got in the form of being an actual caster.
Heavy focus on goatmen has left a lot of early adopters of the faction in a situation where they basically need to replace their army if they want a competitive list.
If you do decide to take Rubrics you may want to add in a alpha legion detachment as the Basic CSM rubrics are better than ours by a good margin (very very sad). Just paint them as your army color and ignore the fact they are not 1ksons. We have no real stratagems or buffs that affect them anyhow.

So all in all I think its a great army. Great looking models and fun and effective rules. The codex works up unto the hardcore tournament level of play. But if you are a chaos player you should be resigned to the fact that we will most likely never be a top tier tournament faction. If these things are fine by you then I would suggest starting this army. I love playing mine but I am not a tournament player. The only real downside was the Magnus nerf which means I will use the model in only the most fluffy of lists.

Oh and we do very well when souped with demons. What I would find interesting is how the codex does with unfluffy demon inclusions, ie adding in Nurgle Demons. But that is blasphemy in its most base form. I hope this helped.

I was thinking of picking up rubrics, but if the main guys of the codex aren't that great than maybe I'll wait

Read the book and make up your own mind. Don't let the hyperbole of the internet decide for you.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Read the book and make up your own mind. Don't let the hyperbole of the internet decide for you.

This is exactly what my stance was. Then I read the book and decided based on my own reasoning that despite my best hopes otherwise it really is Codex: Tzaangors.

I think there are some solid lists out there, obviously Tzaangor focused, if you ally with Daemons. Mono-faction is OK but lacks any shining stars, except the DP but that won't carry an army. I'm still happy with the book, it's just sad that Rubrics remain Forgotten Sons of Magnus.

Secondly, you won't hear very much, if anything IMO, on 1KS in the meta. The army is swingy due to the Elite status. Invulns aren't worth their points in this edition, IMO, and we are costly.

Third, most reviews of the codex don't seem to show that excitement we typically see, even Lawrence as an example, when a faction adds something unique, or powerful, to the meta. Not saying I'm in with Kool-Aid for the online scene, but their reaction matches my own pretty neatly. Cool, fluffy, not a monofaction tournament army for the most part, and don't take Rubrics. SOT are the better option, especially with the Dark Crystal.

I personally think you may see some small allied detatchments, probably Patrols, to get access to the Third Eye and a DP.

I couldn't be happier.

My spells are running the show. Tzaangors do well even when not fully buffed. Scarabs and rubrics have been utra durable and very useful.

Mozzamanx wrote:
It's exactly what people expected/feared that it would be; an army with decent external balance, lots of fun tricks, and absolutely nothing to do with the book's title.
It continues the much-loved trend of CSM books since 4th edition whereby the best way to play the list is to ignore anything that resembles a CSM.

If you like the idea of a more LatD-style Chaos apocalypse uprising of cults, muties and daemon engines, it's a dream. Less so if you wanted anything in Power Armour.
As always, it's great for new players and a bit of a slap to anyone with an army from past editions.

I just lost a game today against Tsons and my opponent took tons of Rubrics. I found them tough to shift with their 2+ saves against bolters and such. He supported them well with Ahriman so there's that. Honestly, it has been my experience that what players on the internet say is hardly reflected in actual real life games.

v0iddrgn wrote:

Mozzamanx wrote:
It's exactly what people expected/feared that it would be; an army with decent external balance, lots of fun tricks, and absolutely nothing to do with the book's title.
It continues the much-loved trend of CSM books since 4th edition whereby the best way to play the list is to ignore anything that resembles a CSM.

If you like the idea of a more LatD-style Chaos apocalypse uprising of cults, muties and daemon engines, it's a dream. Less so if you wanted anything in Power Armour.
As always, it's great for new players and a bit of a slap to anyone with an army from past editions.

I just lost a game today against Tsons and my opponent took tons of Rubrics. I found them tough to shift with their 2+ saves against bolters and such. He supported them well with Ahriman so there's that. Honestly, it has been my experience that what players on the internet say is hardly reflected in actual real life games.

people tend to assume when discussing Marines that the enemy will have sufficant heavy weapons to use against the Marines, not every local meta runs lists that heavy on heavy weapons

In general Rubrics and Tzangs mono lists will fare decently, but yes, many top tier TS lists will feature some Tzangs, so if you really hate them you should maybe reconsider.

If you want to understand part of the problem with rubrics look at the Can the MEQ statline be saved thread and realize that rubrics suffer from the same issues but more exagerrated.

Appreciate all the comments.

I'm just trying to decide on a competitive force that's not a soup army.

The gaming group I play in is quite competitive so looking for a force which can compete

All this talk of thousand sons and Daemons being the strongest list. What mix of units are we talking?

Table wrote:
.
A few really bad stratagems like flesh change, soul and inferno bolts. What makes this really sad is that those three spaces could have been used for Rubric/SoC's stratagems, which we have none of currently.
[...]
We have no real stratagems or buffs that affect them anyhow.

VotLW is great on Rubrics/SOT's, and Webway Infiltration gives us a new way to field Rubrics.
I would've liked more stratagems for them, but saying that we have no Stratagems för Rubrics is just plain wrong.

I’ve had success deep striking a unit of rubrics with flamers

 Xeones7 wrote:
All this talk of thousand sons and Daemons being the strongest list. What mix of units are we talking?

Pesonally, Pink deepstrikes with Tzaangor deepstrikes just in front of them, near a herald and Ahriman, are really potent...

1) your pinks deestrike on the edge of 18" away. Yout tzaangors deepstrike in front of them, in standard 9.001" distance.

2) Ahriman warptimes your tzaangor flerd up as close as possible to the bubblewrap. Danger. If up against a psyker army, try to use cabal strat for +3 to cast on this, as it's vital it goes off okay.

3) Your 90 S4 shots at +1 to wound (flickering flames from the herald) with the pinks just absolutely delete any and all bubble wrap in range.

4) your flerd charges in at the defenceless tasty underbelly of your opponent's list, tying up as many units in cc as you can.

5) You activate VotLW and Cycle of Hatred for 3 cps to get 122 attacks at S4, +1 to wound, -1AP. Extra points if you managed to get your shaman bombed forward to make them +1 to hit.

Your opponent must clear those pesky birdies up somehow, whilst your Pinks are free to lay down serious pain next round. Backed by a herald and a DP for the rerolls, they do an expected 8.75 damage to a Predator, so even if your opponent isn't bubblewrapping, they still do lots of jobs very well.

Rubrics are nothing like other MEQs.

They have good offensive power in ranged and decent melee.
They are extremely durable and can manifest and dissipate.

Contrarily to their MEQ cousins, they don't pay the full price for what they have, and instead get a nice package discount.

They are without a doubt one of the best troop choices in the games. Tzangoors are better for your list only if you want to invest a lot in them, that said, with support they can do really nasty things. If what you need is a self sufficent unit though, rubrics are the obvious choice.

Decent in melee?? They're awful in melee, and if they get stuck in it, their contribution to the game drops massively.

If you think 10 dudes for 220pt is discounted, I'm not sure what to think. I think Rubrics are okay. Just about above okay, maybe.

But if you stacked 10 against their equivalent points in tzaangors (30&horn) it would be a total beating, without even considering strategems and such.

If by 'nothing like other meqs' you mean they can't take heavy weapons at MSU then yes, I'd agree with you there.

grouchoben wrote:
Decent in melee?? They're awful in melee, and if they get stuck in it, their contribution to the game drops massively.

If you think 10 dudes for 220pt is discounted, I'm not sure what to think. I think Rubrics are okay. Just about above okay, maybe.

But if you stacked 10 against their equivalent points in tzaangors (30&horn) it would be a total beating, without even considering strategems and such.

If by 'nothing like other meqs' you mean they can't take heavy weapons at MSU then yes, I'd agree with you there.

Wrong.

For a 5 man unit having one with 2 S6 AP-1 d3 attacks is decent.
Stack those 220 pts of units against each other in real situations, and you will see that Rubrics come out on top 90% of times.
Refer for example to the 4 top lists of GW Heat 3.

Tzaangors by themselves are decent in small squads, but in big squads? Lol they are really bad if unsupported.

 MinscS2 wrote:

Table wrote:
.
A few really bad stratagems like flesh change, soul and inferno bolts. What makes this really sad is that those three spaces could have been used for Rubric/SoC's stratagems, which we have none of currently.
[...]
We have no real stratagems or buffs that affect them anyhow.

VotLW is great on Rubrics/SOT's, and Webway Infiltration gives us a new way to field Rubrics.
I would've liked more stratagems for them, but saying that we have no Stratagems för Rubrics is just plain wrong.

Ill correct myself. We have no stratagems that are only meant for them or benefit ranged firepower over say, circle of slaughter benefits melee. Webway and Vet and are great stratagems and depending on what you field MAY be better spent on other units.


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 Xeones7 wrote:
I’ve had success deep striking a unit of rubrics with flamers

But you have to pay like, half your point total to do it. ;P


Automatically Appended Next Post:

grouchoben wrote:

 Xeones7 wrote:
All this talk of thousand sons and Daemons being the strongest list. What mix of units are we talking?

Pesonally, Pink deepstrikes with Tzaangor deepstrikes just in front of them, near a herald and Ahriman, are really potent...

1) your pinks deestrike on the edge of 18" away. Yout tzaangors deepstrike in front of them, in standard 9.001" distance.

2) Ahriman warptimes your tzaangor flerd up as close as possible to the bubblewrap. Danger. If up against a psyker army, try to use cabal strat for +3 to cast on this, as it's vital it goes off okay.

3) Your 90 S4 shots at +1 to wound (flickering flames from the herald) with the pinks just absolutely delete any and all bubble wrap in range.

4) your flerd charges in at the defenceless tasty underbelly of your opponent's list, tying up as many units in cc as you can.

5) You activate VotLW and Cycle of Hatred for 3 cps to get 122 attacks at S4, +1 to wound, -1AP. Extra points if you managed to get your shaman bombed forward to make them +1 to hit.

Your opponent must clear those pesky birdies up somehow, whilst your Pinks are free to lay down serious pain next round. Backed by a herald and a DP for the rerolls, they do an expected 8.75 damage to a Predator, so even if your opponent isn't bubblewrapping, they still do lots of jobs very well.

Would not a terminator warlord sorc be better in this combo over Ahriman?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:

grouchoben wrote:
Decent in melee?? They're awful in melee, and if they get stuck in it, their contribution to the game drops massively.

If you think 10 dudes for 220pt is discounted, I'm not sure what to think. I think Rubrics are okay. Just about above okay, maybe.

But if you stacked 10 against their equivalent points in tzaangors (30&horn) it would be a total beating, without even considering strategems and such.

If by 'nothing like other meqs' you mean they can't take heavy weapons at MSU then yes, I'd agree with you there.

Wrong.

For a 5 man unit having one with 2 S6 AP-1 d3 attacks is decent.
Stack those 220 pts of units against each other in real situations, and you will see that Rubrics come out on top 90% of times.
Refer for example to the 4 top lists of GW Heat 3.

Tzaangors by themselves are decent in small squads, but in big squads? Lol they are really bad if unsupported.

Who is taking big packs of goats and not supporting them? Even Enlightened Goats need support. If you want unsupported melee you are going to have to soup in some zerkers. And Rubrics in CC is a heap of wasted points.

Using 1d weapons against rubrics is a I don't have anything better to shot at option. 2d or up weapons or anything with high AP. Also perils really hurts msu rubrics

Its quite interesting seeing the divide in the community for the codex. Some people really really like it, then others sound like they think its trash.

Shinzra wrote:
Appreciate all the comments.

I'm just trying to decide on a competitive force that's not a soup army.

The gaming group I play in is quite competitive so looking for a force which can compete

You are going to have to really just wait a while if you want the internet to answer you. The codex is to new to fully understand how they will impact the overall global meta (if one exists).
Soup is the order of this edition. I hate it as well. But you are shooting yourself in the foot then trying to run a marathon by not taking soup to tournaments.
Despite peoples differences of thought on this codex, which are many, I think it is safe to say that a properly built and played list is at the very least above average in power level.

Then again the global meta means nothing for most players that are not attending major tournaments. And without knowing your local meta it is very hard to give you a clear answer. For instance, lets say your meta is being dominated by elite power armored armies. In this case Rubrics are going to go a long way. It just depends on who or what you play.

Edit : Honestly, if you are looking for a non soup chaos force then your best bet is Alpha Legion and Death Guard. I am not saying 1ksons are inferior (yet) but just the other two are safer bets until this codex has had more play time.


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Shinzra wrote:
Its quite interesting seeing the divide in the community for the codex. Some people really really like it, then others sound like they think its trash.

To be fair I do not think anyone is saying the codex is trash. Just a bunch of people are upset at the direction the codex went (AoS models).

The codex is really good.

But everytime I look at Rubrics / Scarabs and how they perform, I can't help but think "more Tzaangors / Daemons would have been better instead".

They *NEED* to bring Rubrics down to 18ppm (with Weapon) and either give Scarabs movement 5" (they're in Tartaros armor ffs !) or a point reduction (All Is Dust is worthless on them).

Shinzra wrote:
Its quite interesting seeing the divide in the community for the codex. Some people really really like it, then others sound like they think its trash.

The latter are the ones not playing games or who think the other units are not usable.

Rubrics need to be slightly cheaper, but to count them out is laughable.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Shinzra wrote:
Its quite interesting seeing the divide in the community for the codex. Some people really really like it, then others sound like they think its trash.

The latter are the ones not playing games or who think the other units are not usable.

Rubrics need to be slightly cheaper, but to count them out is laughable.

No one is counting them out. People are saying that there are better options for the point cost. Add in the fact that our Rubrics are inferior to CSM rubrics (I deem them inferior due to having one less heavy gun in ten). I do not cast with my asp's on rubrics because a peril can wipe out a few models. No spell is worth that (to me). So for me, our Rubrics are worse than vanilla CSM. This is not even going into the legion traits and how they affect them. GW dropped the ball hard with Rubrics and how they interact with CSM vs TS. By all rights we should be rocking 2 heavy in 10 and our legion trait does zip and zilch for them outside of the caster I do not use.

Tell me, what are going to choose. -1 to be hit infiltrating (with stratagem) with two heavy guns and a mini smite OR a caster that runs the very real risk of blowing up his own squad with one heavy weapon and deep striking (with stratagem).
For me, its no contest. If I am going to take Rubrics ill add a Alpha Legion detachment to my army. This should not be. It is clearly a ball dropped hard by GW. But this could be, and I admit this, that the -1 to hit trait is to powerful. But Death Guard players dont dip alpha legion to run effective plague marines because they have stratagems and warlord traits that directly buff them. We do not outside of VoTLW which death guard and alpha legion also rock.

This codex should have had far more of a focus on our Iconic units. Instead we got codex thousand gors. The only reason to not focus at least one dedicated stratagem on Rubrics was to make them a inferior choice to Tzaangors. And yes, GW does operate in this fashion. It is just they are so rarely blatant about it. This post is going to make me unpopular but it is how I see things.

I do want to end this by saying I generally like the codex and love the army. But my few gripes are major ones.

No one is counting them out. People are saying that there are better options for the point cost. Add in the fact that our Rubrics are inferior to CSM rubrics (I deem them inferior due to having one less heavy gun in ten). I do not cast with my asp's on rubrics because a peril can wipe out a few models. No spell is worth that (to me). So for me, our Rubrics are worse than vanilla CSM. This is not even going into the legion traits and how they affect them. GW dropped the ball hard with Rubrics and how they interact with CSM vs TS. By all rights we should be rocking 2 heavy in 10 and our legion trait does zip and zilch for them outside of the caster I do not use.

Tell me, what are going to choose. -1 to be hit infiltrating (with stratagem) with two heavy guns and a mini smite OR a caster that runs the very real risk of blowing up his own squad with one heavy weapon and deep striking (with stratagem).
For me, its no contest. If I am going to take Rubrics ill add a Alpha Legion detachment to my army. This should not be. It is clearly a ball dropped hard by GW. But this could be, and I admit this, that the -1 to hit trait is to powerful. But Death Guard players dont dip alpha legion to run effective plague marines because they have stratagems and warlord traits that directly buff them. We do not outside of VoTLW which death guard and alpha legion also rock.

This codex should have had far more of a focus on our Iconic units. Instead we got codex thousand gors. The only reason to not focus at least one dedicated stratagem on Rubrics was to make them a inferior choice to Tzaangors. And yes, GW does operate in this fashion. It is just they are so rarely blatant about it. This post is going to make me unpopular but it is how I see things.

I do want to end this by saying I generally like the codex and love the army. But my few gripes are major ones.

A couple of points in order to get the 2 heavy weapons you need 20 rubrics regardless of which entry you use. Also, you can still perils with the mini smite so I don't understand why you would cast that but not the other spells that are way better?

My only gripe with rubrics is that they have the same role the Scarabs, have about the same price, and Scarabs are just a better choice IMO. The flamers on the rubrics are interesting but I also play with Tzeentch daemons so their flamers are a better option there. I don't really understand all the salt about the soul reaper cannon I never take it is still way too over priced for what it does. The only major gripe I have about the codex is I think the bow gors are silly and I am trying to think of a way to convert them. I am thinking flames on their hands to make them look like they are shooting magic stuff.

The Salt Mine wrote:

My only gripe with rubrics is that they have the same role the Scarabs, have about the same price, and Scarabs are just a better choice IMO.

This.
Rubrics and Scarab Occult Terminators have the exact same role in the army, and want the exact same buffs (Prescience, VotLW).
And since SOT's are overall much better...

I do not cast with my asp's on rubrics because a peril can wipe out a few models.

Gaze of Fate and a cp reroll gives all the protection you need. It's already so rare by caster I peril most often on my bigger casters. I give rubric squads either Temporal (for redundancy) or Firestorm since they'll be near by tanks and whatnot anyway and those spells are relatively simple to cast most of the time. And the best mileage I get out of them is getting 3 casters in 6" to Doombolt primarchs, uber melee, etc.

Tell me, what are going to choose. -1 to be hit infiltrating (with stratagem) with two heavy guns and a mini smite OR a caster that runs the very real risk of blowing up his own squad with one heavy weapon and deep striking (with stratagem).

You've discounted the huge benefit of 24" instead of 18" spells. You can be -1 to hit all day, but smite won't care.

The only reason to not focus at least one dedicated stratagem on Rubrics was to make them a inferior choice to Tzaangors. And yes, GW does operate in this fashion. It is just they are so rarely blatant about it.

You can make that claim if you ignore everything else Rubrics can do, but it's your tinfoil hat to wear. Tzaangors are only going to get you so far. I tabled a bloodletter bomb with Death Hex, so Tzaangors don't really push the needle.

The Salt Mine wrote:
I don't really understand all the salt about the soul reaper cannon I never take it is still way too over priced for what it does.

Think of it this way - a rubric gets 1 shot at 24". For 15 points it's like having 3 extra Rubrics at 24" with better S and AP. If they added that back and made All Is Dust work for Scarabs i'd wouldn't want for anything else.

The Salt Mine wrote:

No one is counting them out. People are saying that there are better options for the point cost. Add in the fact that our Rubrics are inferior to CSM rubrics (I deem them inferior due to having one less heavy gun in ten). I do not cast with my asp's on rubrics because a peril can wipe out a few models. No spell is worth that (to me). So for me, our Rubrics are worse than vanilla CSM. This is not even going into the legion traits and how they affect them. GW dropped the ball hard with Rubrics and how they interact with CSM vs TS. By all rights we should be rocking 2 heavy in 10 and our legion trait does zip and zilch for them outside of the caster I do not use.

Tell me, what are going to choose. -1 to be hit infiltrating (with stratagem) with two heavy guns and a mini smite OR a caster that runs the very real risk of blowing up his own squad with one heavy weapon and deep striking (with stratagem).
For me, its no contest. If I am going to take Rubrics ill add a Alpha Legion detachment to my army. This should not be. It is clearly a ball dropped hard by GW. But this could be, and I admit this, that the -1 to hit trait is to powerful. But Death Guard players dont dip alpha legion to run effective plague marines because they have stratagems and warlord traits that directly buff them. We do not outside of VoTLW which death guard and alpha legion also rock.

This codex should have had far more of a focus on our Iconic units. Instead we got codex thousand gors. The only reason to not focus at least one dedicated stratagem on Rubrics was to make them a inferior choice to Tzaangors. And yes, GW does operate in this fashion. It is just they are so rarely blatant about it. This post is going to make me unpopular but it is how I see things.

I do want to end this by saying I generally like the codex and love the army. But my few gripes are major ones.

A couple of points in order to get the 2 heavy weapons you need 20 rubrics regardless of which entry you use. Also, you can still perils with the mini smite so I don't understand why you would cast that but not the other spells that are way better?

My only gripe with rubrics is that they have the same role the Scarabs, have about the same price, and Scarabs are just a better choice IMO. The flamers on the rubrics are interesting but I also play with Tzeentch daemons so their flamers are a better option there. I don't really understand all the salt about the soul reaper cannon I never take it is still way too over priced for what it does. The only major gripe I have about the codex is I think the bow gors are silly and I am trying to think of a way to convert them. I am thinking flames on their hands to make them look like they are shooting magic stuff.

I worded a bunch of stuff wrong here. Let me elaborate. In order to get MSU rubrics at their most effective you would be looking outside of our faction and codex. I listed the mini smite as a feature to be complete about what each offers, not that you should cast it. I had to go back and pull out my CSM codex and re-read the entry and you are indeed correct so that takes a bit of salt out of my mine.

Its good to note that the rubric flamers are -1 ap better than demon flamers but demon flamers out distance rubrics by a few inchs. Also it is good to note our rubric flamers cost the same as a combi-plasma. Frankly they are to expensive to ever field them outside of one or two for overwatch damage.

And yes, I thought that fact was well established before the codex drop. Its no secret that Rubrics and SoTs are redundant. I was complaining about it when wrath of magnus dropped. You see back in my day we had to walk a mile through snow to get to the bathroom!

And finally. I would be hard pressed to waste a re-roll on a asp periling. But yes, that option does exist and also you can command point re-roll if you are flush with cp's.

The peril issue comes down to personal choice. But there should have been some form of native protection or mitigation in the squad itself to make it safer to use the Asp as its enhanced casting is meant to go some way to make up for the unit being overcosted. (edit it also takes care of the smite nerf interaction with mini-smites.)

I still stand by my points. Which is that Rubrics and SoTs should have been a bigger focus in this codex as they are our backbone and iconic unit. At least one dedicated stratagem outside of Veterans would have gone a long way to curb some of the ill will and make the unit more attractive to a competitive player over gors or horrors. I still run Rubrics. I still run one unit of SoTs.

Spoletta wrote:
Rubrics are nothing like other MEQs.

Execpt for S, T, W, A, Weapon S, Attack S, number of shooting attacks, and base save. Yeah totally different.

Spoletta wrote:They have good offensive power in ranged and decent melee.

How do they have good offensive power in ranged? They have decent ranged power and are terrible in CC. They, point for point, do less damage then Guardsman in CC.

Spoletta wrote:They are extremely durable and can manifest and dissipate.

They are durable vs small arms which no one with half a brain shoots at them unless they have no other options. Against heavy weapons they die all the same.

Just because they CAN do something dosent mean they should. As far as I can tell people mostly put " throw away" spells on them. That is spells which don't matter. If you do put a spell on them you have to use 2 CP to cast it, over 4 turns thats 8 CP.

Spoletta wrote:Contrarily to their MEQ cousins, they don't pay the full price for what they have, and instead get a nice package discount.

A package discount is only good if you use everything. If you have things that are useless (like a Sgt. That pays 10 extra points for CC equipment which is only good if most the unit is dead) it is not a good deal.

Spoletta wrote:They are without a doubt one of the best troop choices in the games. Tzangoors are better for your list only if you want to invest a lot in them, that said, with support they can do really nasty things. If what you need is a self sufficent unit though, rubrics are the obvious choice.

Oh man, that is rich. Tzaangors are better in every way. Self sufficient? Rubrics? You mean the squad thatNEEDS a Rhino?

Spoletta wrote:For a 5 man unit having one with 2 S6 AP-1 d3 attacks is decent.

For 27 points on a single wound model it is decent in a unit that wants to be in CC. In a unit that pays 2 point for a gun at the very least, its terrible.

Spoletta wrote:Stack those 220 pts of units against each other in real situations, and you will see that Rubrics come out on top 90% of times.
Refer for example to the 4 top lists of GW Heat 3.

You realize that the Rubrics would die in 1 turn right? With almost no losses to the Tzaangors. 2 Ork lists 1 Chaos list and 1 Tyranids list? Orks OP?

Spoletta wrote:Tzaangors by themselves are decent in small squads, but in big squads? Lol they are really bad if unsupported.

Everything is bad unsupported.

Spoletta wrote:[Rubrics] are without a doubt one of the best troop choices in the games.

oh man. That is hilarious.

Found the 1 Chaos list from top 4 (Won the GT) Not a single TS unit in it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and if your looking for a Chaos non soup list undedicaded Daemons i hear does alright.

Just one thing... Why doesn't Icon of Flane do something cool? It could have buffed the flamers or something.

Bah!

Ie. Re-roll 1's to wound.

They really should have made the “ chapter tactic” “TS characters get extra six inch psyker ranger and TS non character infantry and hellbrute get +1 invul and if no invul then 5++”. That would help rubrics. Might make gors too good though.

 xeen wrote:
They really should have made the “ chapter tactic” “TS characters get extra six inch psyker ranger and TS non character infantry and hellbrute get +1 invul and if no invul then 5++”. That would help rubrics. Might make gors too good though.

I thought the same. The old Mark of Tzeentch rule to get +1 invlun for infantry / Helbrutes would have worked well for them without being game breaking. Gives them some protection against heavy weapons and makes them much more resistant to small arms fire with AP-1

 xeen wrote:
They really should have made the “ chapter tactic” “TS characters get extra six inch psyker ranger and TS non character infantry and hellbrute get +1 invul and if no invul then 5++”. That would help rubrics. Might make gors too good though.

Gors would need a price hike for a 4+ invuln. Im not sure that would be a good trade off. +1 to invuln saves is not to far off of the alpha legion trait but add it to a list of nerfs from coming into 8th edition. We have had some hard nerfs along with some hard buffs. I think we would have been fine with -3 AP bolters and Magnus pre-nerf. But it is what it is. As I have said my final take on this codex (for now) is it was a mixed bag. We got a lot of new ways to play but also lost Magnus as a competitive choice and there were a bunch of missed opportunities. All in all I feel the codex was rushed and probably needed more time in the play testing oven. Either way it is a solid codex if you happen to include the new hotness which is Gors (but apparently I am a conspiracy theorist and GW would never make rule decisions based on sales and projected sales.). If you want the old rubric spam back, then tough beans, move along until next codex in a few years (unless you are fine playing a under powered army list....which some players are.) I think this answers the OP with my own thoughts. Mileage may vary from player to player.

Tbh, they could've just given Tzaangors a 6++, which would then be increased to a 5++ with the "legion tactic".

I do agree that it's a missed opportunity to give Thousand Sons a legion tactic that only helps psykers (even if it's a pretty good legion tactic), and while a 4++ would by no means make Rubrics/SOT's OP, a 3++ against D1-weapons might be a bit too much.

Table wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Shinzra wrote:
Its quite interesting seeing the divide in the community for the codex. Some people really really like it, then others sound like they think its trash.

The latter are the ones not playing games or who think the other units are not usable.

Rubrics need to be slightly cheaper, but to count them out is laughable.

No one is counting them out. People are saying that there are better options for the point cost. Add in the fact that our Rubrics are inferior to CSM rubrics (I deem them inferior due to having one less heavy gun in ten). I do not cast with my asp's on rubrics because a peril can wipe out a few models. No spell is worth that (to me).

This is why rubrics are not performing for you. Right here. I'm sorry, but this is just not intelligent play and contributes a lot to the perception of rubrics being a weak unit. If you are holding a reroll (and with access to Gaze of Fate there is little reason not to be while you cast with your Asorcs) you have a 1% chance of hitting a perils.

For perspective, this is like saying you'd never overcharge with a unit of hellblasters even if they're in range of Azrael because they can still roll 2 1's in a row to overheat, therefore hellblasters are terrible because they do no damage. And before the inevitable "nuh UH", you can expect to lose 5 points of hellblasters on average per single-tap shot with a full reroll to hit, and 6 points of rubrics on average per cast with no reroll available. The peril is worse on the rubrics, removing on average 80 points of models as opposed to 38, but less likely, causing it to even out. If you hold the reroll, you are going to see a peril on an Asorc once every 5-10 games IF you're casting with all of them, every round. Which honestly you should unless you have no use for their spell and you've ramped your Smite counter up a couple times with the beta rule.

You're going to think any unit is trash if you don't use something that's a mandatory purchase on them. If you buy lascannons on all your guard squads and never fire them, you're probably going to be wondering why everyone thinks guard squads are such a balance problem.

In general, the only thing I wish they'd given Rubrics is DH discipline, because I would love to take Warptime on my SOTs without dropping a CP to get it, and I would love to have access to more cheap MW-generating spells on my rubrics because my Firestorm rubric squad is so often a massive standout in my games.

the_scotsman wrote:

Table wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Shinzra wrote:
Its quite interesting seeing the divide in the community for the codex. Some people really really like it, then others sound like they think its trash.

The latter are the ones not playing games or who think the other units are not usable.

Rubrics need to be slightly cheaper, but to count them out is laughable.

No one is counting them out. People are saying that there are better options for the point cost. Add in the fact that our Rubrics are inferior to CSM rubrics (I deem them inferior due to having one less heavy gun in ten). I do not cast with my asp's on rubrics because a peril can wipe out a few models. No spell is worth that (to me).

This is why rubrics are not performing for you. Right here. I'm sorry, but this is just not intelligent play and contributes a lot to the perception of rubrics being a weak unit. If you are holding a reroll (and with access to Gaze of Fate there is little reason not to be while you cast with your Asorcs) you have a 1% chance of hitting a perils.

For perspective, this is like saying you'd never overcharge with a unit of hellblasters even if they're in range of Azrael because they can still roll 2 1's in a row to overheat, therefore hellblasters are terrible because they do no damage. And before the inevitable "nuh UH", you can expect to lose 5 points of hellblasters on average per single-tap shot with a full reroll to hit, and 6 points of rubrics on average per cast with no reroll available. The peril is worse on the rubrics, removing on average 80 points of models as opposed to 38, but less likely, causing it to even out. If you hold the reroll, you are going to see a peril on an Asorc once every 5-10 games IF you're casting with all of them, every round. Which honestly you should unless you have no use for their spell and you've ramped your Smite counter up a couple times with the beta rule.

You're going to think any unit is trash if you don't use something that's a mandatory purchase on them. If you buy lascannons on all your guard squads and never fire them, you're probably going to be wondering why everyone thinks guard squads are such a balance problem.

In general, the only thing I wish they'd given Rubrics is DH discipline, because I would love to take Warptime on my SOTs without dropping a CP to get it, and I would love to have access to more cheap MW-generating spells on my rubrics because my Firestorm rubric squad is so often a massive standout in my games.

What he said.

Zodd1888 wrote:
Just one thing... Why doesn't Icon of Flane do something cool? It could have buffed the flamers or something.

Bah!

Ie. Re-roll 1's to wound.

+1 Inch to range of flamers.

 nintura wrote:

Zodd1888 wrote:
Just one thing... Why doesn't Icon of Flane do something cool? It could have buffed the flamers or something.

Bah!

Ie. Re-roll 1's to wound.

+1 Inch to range of flamers.

Yeah, that's definitely a missed opportunity. But the one that for me takes the cake is just. how. BORING the exalted sorceror is.

That kit has a freaking BAJILLION bits in it, I just built it yesterday! There's mutated arms casting a fire spell on the ammo feed to a bolt pistol, there's 8 unique-looking heads for Force Staves, floating books, special helmets with different crests, a backpack with cool braziers and one with wings, there's freaking magical bird-beaked attack tassels, it is arguably the single most customized, option-filled HQ kit in the entire game.

And what options do they have in game?

You can take a sword, or not. You can have a disc, or not.

I really, really hope we get some new options in a balance FAQ or a white dwarf or something, because wasting the sheer potential of that kit is just super dumb.

I agree. But at least they let you customize some aspiring sorcs that you may or may not play because of lack of competitiveness

the_scotsman wrote:

Table wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Shinzra wrote:
Its quite interesting seeing the divide in the community for the codex. Some people really really like it, then others sound like they think its trash.

The latter are the ones not playing games or who think the other units are not usable.

Rubrics need to be slightly cheaper, but to count them out is laughable.

No one is counting them out. People are saying that there are better options for the point cost. Add in the fact that our Rubrics are inferior to CSM rubrics (I deem them inferior due to having one less heavy gun in ten). I do not cast with my asp's on rubrics because a peril can wipe out a few models. No spell is worth that (to me).

This is why rubrics are not performing for you. Right here. I'm sorry, but this is just not intelligent play and contributes a lot to the perception of rubrics being a weak unit. If you are holding a reroll (and with access to Gaze of Fate there is little reason not to be while you cast with your Asorcs) you have a 1% chance of hitting a perils.

For perspective, this is like saying you'd never overcharge with a unit of hellblasters even if they're in range of Azrael because they can still roll 2 1's in a row to overheat, therefore hellblasters are terrible because they do no damage. And before the inevitable "nuh UH", you can expect to lose 5 points of hellblasters on average per single-tap shot with a full reroll to hit, and 6 points of rubrics on average per cast with no reroll available. The peril is worse on the rubrics, removing on average 80 points of models as opposed to 38, but less likely, causing it to even out. If you hold the reroll, you are going to see a peril on an Asorc once every 5-10 games IF you're casting with all of them, every round. Which honestly you should unless you have no use for their spell and you've ramped your Smite counter up a couple times with the beta rule.

You're going to think any unit is trash if you don't use something that's a mandatory purchase on them. If you buy lascannons on all your guard squads and never fire them, you're probably going to be wondering why everyone thinks guard squads are such a balance problem.

In general, the only thing I wish they'd given Rubrics is DH discipline, because I would love to take Warptime on my SOTs without dropping a CP to get it, and I would love to have access to more cheap MW-generating spells on my rubrics because my Firestorm rubric squad is so often a massive standout in my games.

I never said Rubrics are trash. I did however say, incorrectly I may add that CSM has more hvy weapons on rubrics in squads of ten. That error has been pointed out and I have shifted my stance on that. However I still stand by the fact that IF you are going to run MSU rubrics, that it is better to run alpha legion... for all the reasons I have mentioned above. It is still a question of choice on if you value -1 to be hit or a medium warp charge power that CAN peril and wipe out models. Ill gloss over the comment on my playing because I am not a competitive player and I am certainly positive that I am at best a mediocre player who, like other mediocre players is vulnerable to bad choices and bad tactics. I will only defend my decision to not cast with my two rubric squads because of my list make up being super heavy on psykers and now shaman. My asps are getting spells that are not critical to my army set up. Boon of Mutation is a dead spell to me because I have no Exalted Sorcs on foot or Sorcs/Termi Sorcs and Magnus is running Glamour/Temporal/Weaver/Infernal Gateway. My reasoning for this is to take the most critical powers and highest WC powers on Magnus due to his native +2 to cast and his aura of re-roll. Ahriman is running Doombolt due to its high WC cost so this leaves Firestorm which goes on my one squad of SoTs. So, what is left to go on my two rubric squads? Boon which is a dead spell in my list? In my non magnus list Ahriman takes on the critical 3 leaving doombolt and firestorm which goes to my two shaman.

So, with this being said, what exactly am I supposed to cast with my rubrics? They only get access to change (lamely). And I have yet to be in a game where I value a mini-smite over a chance to peril. You can say that is bad playing. And maybe for you it is. But ill say its good playing when you peril and take out 3 rubrics. Now there is a caveat. IF my rubric squads happen to be in range of Magnus's aura I will mini-smite because I am comfortable with that failure rate. Now you can say that it is my list building that is in error, which it could be as I only have a 60% win rate since the codex drop.


But all of this is meaningless. I could care less to defend my playing on dakka when we do not even have a battle report to go on. I just wanted to explain to you that with my list and how I value powers that Rubrics are often left with only mini-smite. If you happen to have input on how I hand out my powers to what caster then by all means, let it rip.

What I have said is below.

No one is counting out rubrics. I run two squads of Rubrics. I think Rubrics are a mid grade choice as they stand now. The current meta in my area favors horde lists so the fact I am taking rubrics at all is a fluff move as Cultists and Horrors would serve me far better. I think people are not happy with Rubrics due to the meta. I think Rubrics need to drop to 17 points. I think warpflamers need to drop to 10 minimum, id be happy with 8. I think Rubrics should have gotten a focused stratagem. I think SoT's are redundant with rubrics as they both serve the same roll. I think that haivng the asps limited to change was a bone headed move on GW's part.

So, if we are going to continue this banter ( I would rather not as I have already given my two cents to the OP) let us at least get on the same page and do not put words in my mouth. Rubrics are under performing for me due to my meta/list set up/and play style. And there is nothing wrong with that. I do not even think they are a "bad" unit. Just that they are not a verified competitive pick at the moment. When we start seeing top placing Tsons or Soup lists with Rubrics I will think on this again. Also, for sake of completeness. Last time I checked a Las Gun does not have a chance to gib one or two 20 point guardsmen when you fire it so that is not a viable talking point.

 xeen wrote:
They really should have made the “ chapter tactic” “TS characters get extra six inch psyker ranger and TS non character infantry and hellbrute get +1 invul and if no invul then 5++”. That would help rubrics. Might make gors too good though.

seems a m ite bit much given it'd be better straight up then Custodes.

Shinzra wrote:
Its quite interesting seeing the divide in the community for the codex. Some people really really like it, then others sound like they think its trash.

It seems to be to be basically divided along those who want to see all power armor all day, and those who want to see anything but power armor all day. [Personally, I'm in the second camp. It's nice to see anything-but-marines, because all I ever see is more-goddamn-marines].

It seems that the codex itself is good.

the_scotsman wrote:
This is why rubrics are not performing for you. Right here. I'm sorry, but this is just not intelligent play and contributes a lot to the perception of rubrics being a weak unit. If you are holding a reroll (and with access to Gaze of Fate there is little reason not to be while you cast with your Asorcs) you have a 1% chance of hitting a perils.

For perspective, this is like saying you'd never overcharge with a unit of hellblasters even if they're in range of Azrael because they can still roll 2 1's in a row to overheat, therefore hellblasters are terrible because they do no damage. And before the inevitable "nuh UH", you can expect to lose 5 points of hellblasters on average per single-tap shot with a full reroll to hit, and 6 points of rubrics on average per cast with no reroll available. The peril is worse on the rubrics, removing on average 80 points of models as opposed to 38, but less likely, causing it to even out. If you hold the reroll, you are going to see a peril on an Asorc once every 5-10 games IF you're casting with all of them, every round. Which honestly you should unless you have no use for their spell and you've ramped your Smite counter up a couple times with the beta rule.

Here is the problem with your analogy. AS blow up in a 6" radius they don't just die themselves. So when an AS dies from perils they can kill 47 to 87 points from thier own unit and plus put 2 wounds on an ES or Ahriman, and kill up to 60 more points in another Rubric squad, plus a couple of Tzaangors. So saying 87 points average is a bit off we don't know the average because there is no way to tell. HB will lose 38 points every single time no matter what. They don't endanger the very aura that keeps them alive and they can very easily be replaced with another units that costs less but does around the same damage. The AS is one of the worst Sgt. in the game due to how he clashes with the rest of the unit. He is 100% CC oriented in a unit that being in CC with is 1000% the worst place to be with them. He's a 30 point model that wont get used until turn 3 or 4. It would be like the army having every team leaders load out being a Side Arm, a Sword, and an atomic hand gernade which he occasionally drops and kills the team and other teams around him. It's the dumbest setup for a unit there could possibly be.

the_scotsman wrote:
You're going to think any unit is trash if you don't use something that's a mandatory purchase on them. If you buy lascannons on all your guard squads and never fire them, you're probably going to be wondering why everyone thinks guard squads are such a balance problem.

Comparing a unit that CAN upgrade something which has no chance of killing the model, and a unit that MUST take something that could do upwards of 150 points of damage on a catastrophic failure is totally different. The question should be why

a couple of questions

1.) How many Rubric squads do you run?

2.) What spells do you cast with your AS

3.) Do you use any augments besides the rerolls?

4.) What do you do if GoF dosen't cast?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Shinzra wrote:
Its quite interesting seeing the divide in the community for the codex. Some people really really like it, then others sound like they think its trash.

It seems to be to be basically divided along those who want to see all power armor all day, and those who want to see anything but power armor all day. [Personally, I'm in the second camp. It's nice to see anything-but-marines, because all I ever see is more-goddamn-marines].

It seems that the codex itself is good.

There is a third camp that thinks that neither unit should really tresspass on the others role. Right now anything Rubrics can do Tzaangors can do better, with a couple exceptions.

Great spread of information and posts. Appreciate it.

I have added a poll also for those who want to cast there vote

1) 20, pretty much every game, and either 5 or 10 SOTs. Sorcerors, Ahriman, Rubrics, SOTs, and the rhinos they ride in make up about 1250-1500 of my typical 2k lists.

2) varies depending on army setup, as it should. Firestorm is a pretty common one I tend to like, because it introduces a high-percentile "critical success" to my AS alongside the low-percentile critical failure of a perils. Temporal Manipulation is also common on rubric AS, and I almost always run Weaver on SOTs.

3) Not sure what you mean by "Augments".

4) risk/benefit analysis. Like you should do with every unit in 40k, pretty much at all times. Do I have a single-wound ahriman and three other squads within 6" of an AS? I'll hold off on casting him for the turn, and try to position him better in my next turn. There's little reason for me to position an AS that badly. Usually if he's 6" away from anything, he's next to his rhino, and if he pops the rhino for a couple of mortals on a perils, that's really the least of my worries.

Couple other notes:

The AS is not 100% setup for melee. He is a psyker, with the same equipment of pretty much every single psyker in the game. Would you say that a primaris psyker was 100% setup for melee? Most of the aspiring sorceror's spells have the exact same range of the rest of his squad, and if you're not getting any use out of him until turn 3, you might be doing something wrong. Maybe you took firestorm on them in the vs gunline matchup and the only thing you can hit at 24" is a guard screen - maybe don't do that. Take a defensive buff and cast it on something that's likely to be targeted.

The only role that tzaangors tresspass on with respect to rubrics is the new way to run them added in the codex: Deep striking them into the enemy lines. In that instance, yes, Tzaangors 100% outperform Rubrics because the deep strike rubric bomb is honestly not very good, and by contrast it is the best way to run tzaangors. in the "standing out in the open at the beginning of the game" contest, tzaangors also win, but neither is actually good at that role, and you may as well say Tzaangors are getting shoved out by Cultists/Brimstones. Compare Tzaangors and Rubrics as rhino-borne mechanized infantry, and there's no comparison. The tzaangors take more turns to start being effective, require three times as many points to be spent on rhinos, and compare unfavorably to nearly every other melee line infantry out there once they do get out of their transports.

They're just two completely different units that want to do different things. You're going to get the exact same kind of comparison if you take, for example, IG infantry squads in Chimeras and compare them to Tactical Marines in rhinos. The current 8th ed meta doesn't favor mechanized infantry, but even so, the tactical marines are better at being mechanized infantry than the guardsmen are. Guardsmen aren't shoving tactical marines out of their role as mechanized infantry, they're being taken in soup lists and used for a completely different purpose, as a chaff screen.

1.8% (or 0.3% with reroll) That is the chance your AS will miscast and blow up 3 of his own dudes.
5.6%(or 0.9%with reroll) is the chance at least 1 will be blown up.

vs a 83% chance to get a succesful baby smite.

The lack of risk is calculated but boy are you bad at math.

the chance of taking ohters with you needs to be added here but that goes for your opponents models as well as your own. I once saw a AS finish of 2 carnifexes with 1 failed smite.

 Earth127 wrote:
1.8% (or 0.3% with reroll) That is the chance your AS will miscast and blow up 3 of his own dudes.
5.6%(or 0.9%with reroll) is the chance at least 1 will be blown up.

vs a 83% chance to get a succesful baby smite.

The lack of risk is calculated but boy are you bad at math.

the chance of taking ohters with you needs to be added here but that goes for your opponents models as well as your own. I once saw a AS finish of 2 carnifexes with 1 failed smite.

I would never assume you have a reroll available to try and mitigate the D3 damage rolls for the aspiring sorceror.

so, your 5.6%/0.9% chance there I definitely agree with, and you should usually be rolling at that 0.9% chance, but on average when the aspiring sorceror perils, he kills 3 of his buddies, because the initial D3 damage he takes on the perils does spill over, and then the additional D3 goes into the squad. so, worst case, 6 guys die including the sorc, best case 2 die including the sorc.

I don't think babysmite is very often worth the risk to cast (though it occasionally is, especially when you're up against something with a good invuln) but that's why it's nice that they now have access to other powers. Weaver, Glamour, Temporal and Firestorm are all highly useful spells to have on rubric units, well worth a 0.9% chance of losing a chunk of rubrics.

If you want to feel like pretty much any unit in the game sucks, try calculating what happens to them if they roll in the bottom 0.9 percentile of possibility for their attacks, or saves, or whatever.

My math is slightly off. The smaller percnetage is if you reroll the psychic test.

5.6% to blow up at least one. 2% approxiamtely of killing at least 3 rubrics if the first mortal wounds spill over.

But I forgot abou the spilling over 1st perils D3. Tough I might argue that the perils rule specificly targets the psyker and not its unite and the rubrics do not count and only suffer the extra D3 mortl (unlike GK squads where everyone is the psyker).

I'm not a dedicated Thousand Sons player nor have I been a die-hard fan of the legion for any length of time - that said as a competitive player I really like the book. I know that perspective probably isn't as valued as someone who is specifically a fan of the army but I think it is worth looking at.

From a 'Chaos Soup' ingredient stand point the book really brings a lot to the table. It can mesh well with several variants of chaos's successful tricks from simple patrols to get access to a great DP with CP regen to meshing well with pink horror drops or cultist bombs. All in all the book has been a great tool for me as a competitive player to add some new layers and new setups for my army.

BrianDavion wrote:

 xeen wrote:
They really should have made the “ chapter tactic” “TS characters get extra six inch psyker ranger and TS non character infantry and hellbrute get +1 invul and if no invul then 5++”. That would help rubrics. Might make gors too good though.

seems a m ite bit much given it'd be better straight up then Custodes.

Custodes should never have Chapter Tactics. They are lone fighting gladiators. They don't fight in squads, or even have chapter tactics. They are meant to be loners.

Garbage, doesn't do anything that can't be done better by other books in the same faction.

Playing TS is basically an aesthetic choice.

Also, Magnus is utter garbage now since (among other things like his garbage warlord trait) unlike DG, TS was not provided with any way to protect their primarch at all.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Garbage, doesn't do anything that can't be done better by other books in the same faction.

I'd like to see you make a psyker army as effective as TS can.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I'd like to see you make a psyker army as effective as TS can.

You're right, they can make a better psyker army. It's the 40k equivalent of the US Paralympics team, everyone feels really good that they get to go and compete, just not in the same stadium as the rest of the athletes.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Garbage, doesn't do anything that can't be done better by other books in the same faction.

Playing TS is basically an aesthetic choice.

Also, Magnus is utter garbage now since (among other things like his garbage warlord trait) unlike DG, TS was not provided with any way to protect their primarch at all.

Interesting thought process given the access to things like Tzeentch Princes (4++ save, access to double powers, same cost as other princes), a solid choice in Tzaangors (similar in impact to a bloodletter bomb just with access to different buffs), and Chaos's first CP farming item. But maybe you're talking about the book from the lens of a pure codex?

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I'd like to see you make a psyker army as effective as TS can.

You're right, they can make a better psyker army. It's the 40k equivalent of the US Paralympics team, everyone feels really good that they get to go and compete, just not in the same stadium as the rest of the athletes.

So it is or isn't it an aesthetic choice? I don't care what language you want to dress it in to make yourself sound cool.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
Interesting thought process given the access to things like Tzeentch Princes (4++ save, access to double powers, same cost as other princes)

I can get a 4+ save DP in the Daemons codex also. The double powers is nice, but not worth a detachment. Also, all the TS powers only work on TS units, but will not work with anything from the Daemons or CSM codices. But Daemons powers can be cast on Daemonic troops, Daemon auras affect Daemonic troops, you see where I'm going here. You're taking a synergy hit for that extra power.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
a solid choice in Tzaangors (similar in impact to a bloodletter bomb just with access to different buffs)

You mean effectively the same choice I have in several other codices. CSM and Daemons just have a better variety of bombs, better delivery methods, and quite frankly, better troops to deliver.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
and Chaos's first CP farming item. But maybe you're talking about the book from the lens of a pure codex?

Believe me, I looked at that artifact and tried to rationalize a reason to include a TS detachment. It's just not worth the loss of a more tactically flexible CSM or Daemons detachment.

But hey, maybe they'll rock a bunch of tournaments and totally prove me wrong, that would be exciting.

4++ save prince in a demons detachment is valid but no access to double powers so its still not as strong a prince, not especially with access to the helm. Also regarding access to powers - you still get access to the demonic powers so there's nothing stopping you from going supreme command for 3 princes or maybe 2 and an Ahriman so you can get the helm, strong access (and he effectively becomes a better Demons prince). I don't disagree that as a whole the book has some very specific tools that are worth taking but I don't agree that it isn't a viable soup ingredient.

Also - and I know you've engaged in the Tzaangor debate in other threads so I won't engage it here but I think the Tzaangor bomb with just the minimal support of time warp is a really effective unit, one that you can reasonably work into a detachment for access to the good princes, and not lose CP to access. I do think you'll see some Chaos Soup lists that run TSons at or near top tables because they do bring some interesting and useful tools - perhaps they're not blow your mind unique but lets be honest there is a ton of overlap in chaos soup as whole (that's why it all works so well).

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
4++ save prince in a demons detachment is valid but no access to double powers so its still not as strong a prince, not especially with access to the helm. Also regarding access to powers - you still get access to the demonic powers so there's nothing stopping you from going supreme command for 3 princes or maybe 2 and an Ahriman so you can get the helm, strong access (and he effectively becomes a better Demons prince). I don't disagree that as a whole the book has some very specific tools that are worth taking but I don't agree that it isn't a viable soup ingredient.

Also - and I know you've engaged in the Tzaangor debate in other threads so I won't engage it here but I think the Tzaangor bomb with just the minimal support of time warp is a really effective unit, one that you can reasonably work into a detachment for access to the good princes, and not lose CP to access. I do think you'll see some Chaos Soup lists that run TSons at or near top tables because they do bring some interesting and useful tools - perhaps they're not blow your mind unique but lets be honest there is a ton of overlap in chaos soup as whole (that's why it all works so well).

*sigh* My browser or the base's firewall ate my previous response, which ultimately was just a reiteration of points I've made previously.

- Not bringing enough to the table to justify a detachment.
- Lazy uninspired codex.
- We'll agree to disagree.
- Happy to be wrong if we see them at the top tables.

the_scotsman wrote:
1) 20, pretty much every game, and either 5 or 10 SOTs. Sorcerors, Ahriman, Rubrics, SOTs, and the rhinos they ride in make up about 1250-1500 of my typical 2k lists.

So I am assuming 1 to 2 units of Rubrics, and 1 SOT unit.

the_scotsman wrote:
2) varies depending on army setup, as it should. Firestorm is a pretty common one I tend to like, because it introduces a high-percentile "critical success" to my AS alongside the low-percentile critical failure of a perils. Temporal Manipulation is also common on rubric AS, and I almost always run Weaver on SOTs.

Thats fine totally understandable. Although im wondering what you do when Weaver dosen't go off.

the_scotsman wrote:
3) Not sure what you mean by "Augments".

Things like CF or bringing Magnus, but it dosen't matter.

the_scotsman wrote:
4) risk/benefit analysis. Like you should do with every unit in 40k, pretty much at all times. Do I have a single-wound ahriman and three other squads within 6" of an AS? I'll hold off on casting him for the turn, and try to position him better in my next turn. There's little reason for me to position an AS that badly. Usually if he's 6" away from anything, he's next to his rhino, and if he pops the rhino for a couple of mortals on a perils, that's really the least of my worries.

Okay. Here is the problem. If you bring a Regular Sorc, you don't have to worry about that problem. In fact your in a better position because now you can prevent Perils on units that really need it and when you choose to do so can eat a perils to get a high WC ability off when needed. Then simply heal the wounds either next turn or this turn if you haven't casted TM yet. That one Sorc can replace 2 units of Rubrics, which means you can bring a 15 man Tzaangor squad and 1 Sorc and pay less points than 2 Rubric squads for them.

Couple other notes:

The AS is not 100% setup for melee. He is a psyker, with the same equipment of pretty much every single psyker in the game. Would you say that a primaris psyker was 100% setup for melee? Most of the aspiring sorceror's spells have the exact same range of the rest of his squad, and if you're not getting any use out of him until turn 3, you might be doing something wrong. Maybe you took firestorm on them in the vs gunline matchup and the only thing you can hit at 24" is a guard screen - maybe don't do that. Take a defensive buff and cast it on something that's likely to be targeted.

The AS has an 8 point melee weapon and a 12" pistol that account for 1/3 his points cost. His Psychic ability hamstrings your army becuase instead of using your rerolls to make sure you important psykers don't perils your using them to make sure your AS dosen't blow up and kill a bunch of your own models. The majority of the points you spend on him are geard towards CC. The unit is a base cost of 107. 80 points don't want to be in CC and 27 points do. Its a situation where you end up screwed either way. Either most of 27 points goes to waste or most of 80+ points goes to waste. Its the same problem the unit had last Edition only slightly better because now the AP works all the time.

the_scotsman wrote:
The only role that tzaangors tresspass on with respect to rubrics is the new way to run them added in the codex: Deep striking them into the enemy lines. In that instance, yes, Tzaangors 100% outperform Rubrics because the deep strike rubric bomb is honestly not very good, and by contrast it is the best way to run tzaangors. in the "standing out in the open at the beginning of the game" contest, tzaangors also win, but neither is actually good at that role, and you may as well say Tzaangors are getting shoved out by Cultists/Brimstones. Compare Tzaangors and Rubrics as rhino-borne mechanized infantry, and there's no comparison. The tzaangors take more turns to start being effective, require three times as many points to be spent on rhinos, and compare unfavorably to nearly every other melee line infantry out there once they do get out of their transports.

They're just two completely different units that want to do different things. You're going to get the exact same kind of comparison if you take, for example, IG infantry squads in Chimeras and compare them to Tactical Marines in rhinos. The current 8th ed meta doesn't favor mechanized infantry, but even so, the tactical marines are better at being mechanized infantry than the guardsmen are. Guardsmen aren't shoving tactical marines out of their role as mechanized infantry, they're being taken in soup lists and used for a completely different purpose, as a chaff screen.

They have the exact same stat line in everything except AP for thier weapons and range on thier weapons. That is it they have access to more auras, and better buffs. In the end the only thing Rubrics can do better then Tzaangors is be a Distraction Carnifax. That's it.

The simple fact is we have a bunch of glass cannon units which dish out a bunch of damage but can't really take a hit, and 2 Highly durable units that only do noticible damage when they have a spell, an Aura, and a CP spent on them.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


Okay. Here is the problem. If you bring a Regular Sorc, you don't have to worry about that problem. In fact your in a better position because now you can prevent Perils on units that really need it and when you choose to do so can eat a perils to get a high WC ability off when needed. Then simply heal the wounds either next turn or this turn if you haven't casted TM yet. That one Sorc can replace 2 units of Rubrics, which means you can bring a 15 man Tzaangor squad and 1 Sorc and pay less points than 2 Rubric squads for them.

Exalted w/ +1 to cast; 121
2 units of 5 Rubric; 214

vs

TA sorcerer w/ familiar; 138
30 Tzaangors; 220

=====

I cast Death Hex using CF at +3. There is almost no chance of failure and very little chance you could stop me. Throw on a smite for a couple dead.

If you're within 12" (e.g. you landed and killed my screen). And we'll say you somehow got both prescience and glamour off. I drop VotLW and kill 7. If my smite went through that's 9. I charge you with everything and grab another 6.5 for a total of 15 or so.

30 attacks back kills 4 rubrics and it's not likely your sorc is in a position to counter charge, but even if he does it's another 1.3. You'd have to put that all on one squad, because otherwise you're not getting a morale test from me. You on the other hand will likely lose another 5.

So in this hypothetical scenario I've lost 107 points. You have lost 140. And I didn't even cast with my AS, which would likely be firestorm and smite for another 2 or 3 (and you're all out of denies at this point where I have a deny for every single thing you cast). Now you could certainly bring other things to support the Tzaangors, but that means I can bring more, too, but defensively you have nothing else past glamour.

Realistically though I would have put way more bullets into that unit meaning i'd likely lose a couple rubrics (if I still had to charge) and you'd lose the whole unit.

Assuming you have first round. Now what if it's reversed?

So basically you're saying 'it's good to go first'?

Run it again with the Tzaangor herd going first and there'd be nothing left but dust in the breeze.

Edit: Ninja'd by a nintura!

grouchoben wrote:
So basically you're saying 'it's good to go first'?

Run it again with the Tzaangor herd going first and there'd be nothing left but dust in the breeze.

Edit: Ninja'd by a nintura!

Thats why screens exist. It just so happens we have access to a cheap one.

Ah so now it's not just the four units in your example?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll do it for you if you want -

Assuming the charge is made, with warptime, tzaangor +1 and CP reroll all options. Also assuming *zero* buffs from the accompanying Termi Sorcerer:

a) 1 Tzaangor dies to overwatch.
b) Tzaangors activate VoTLW and 8.7 Rubrics die
c) Tzaangor player has option to activate Cycle of Hatred and wipe the remaining Rubric and the exalted, or save the points and watch the Rubric 'attack' back.

 nintura wrote:

Zodd1888 wrote:
Just one thing... Why doesn't Icon of Flane do something cool? It could have buffed the flamers or something.

Bah!

Ie. Re-roll 1's to wound.

+1 Inch to range of flamers.

That would do nothing cause you don't deepstrike within 9" range. Now, if it was +1.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000..1, it'd be fine.

grouchoben wrote:
Ah so now it's not just the four units in your example?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll do it for you if you want -

Assuming the charge is made, with warptime, tzaangor +1 and CP reroll all options. Also assuming *zero* buffs from the accompanying Termi Sorcerer:

a) 1 Tzaangor dies to overwatch.
b) Tzaangors activate VoTLW and 8.7 Rubrics die
c) Tzaangor player has option to activate Cycle of Hatred and wipe the remaining Rubric and the exalted, or save the points and watch the Rubric 'attack' back.

All fine and dandy and if you reread my post carefully I state how it's stupid to compare these units in a vacuum. You won't EVER be deploying tzaangors within 9" of my rubrics. In fact you will be 13" away and unable to declare a charge UNLESS you get warptime off and ONLY if I don't deny it and you succeed at casting it. And even then my only one of my units will be within your 3" consolidate, which will pull you away from the center.

So your plan has tons of conditionals to POSSIBLY kill a 40 point cultist unit (warptime and/or successful charge) and possibly 107 of rubrics (warptime required). Mine has very little chance of failure.

I'm not sure why you guys think people are just going to lay their units out for tzaangors to savage. Maybe marines with no chaff, but good luck with everyone else.

grouchoben wrote:
Ah so now it's not just the four units in your example?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll do it for you if you want -

Assuming the charge is made, with warptime, tzaangor +1 and CP reroll all options. Also assuming *zero* buffs from the accompanying Termi Sorcerer:

a) 1 Tzaangor dies to overwatch.
b) Tzaangors activate VoTLW and 8.7 Rubrics die
c) Tzaangor player has option to activate Cycle of Hatred and wipe the remaining Rubric and the exalted, or save the points and watch the Rubric 'attack' back.

A melee unit spending CPs that makes its charge against a shooting unit wins. good job! you've just proven that Mutilators are 100% superior to Dark Reapers as well.

These kinds of comparisons are dumb from the beginning. We're giving the Tzaangors one offense and defense buff from the terminator sorc, and just granting that they succeed the 41% chance of getting to attack at all. We're pairing the Rubrics with an exalted sorceror for some reason, instead of giving them a 10-cultist or brimstone screen, or put them in a rhino, which is what you do in real games with competently built shooting lists to prevent this exact scenario from occurring.

Add that in to the fact that in the first place of COURSE a unit who puts a large number of points into a shooting attack with a relatively high AP value is going to struggle against a unit with no armor save at all in melee, and you're going to have a slanted comparison from the start (which is why it's so weird to me that the scenario was blatantly set up to try and show the rubrics at an advantage )

It doesn't prove anything to compare units in a vacuum like this. If you pit 2000 points of Dark Reapers against 2000 points of Black Templars Assault Marines, the assault marines would probably win eventually just by virtue of enough of them getting into combat after the drop that the reapers would have next to no shooting. but you've just gone through a completely pointless exercise, because in practice that's not how the DR focused armies in top tier lists are actually operating.

Overall, I'll say this about rubrics and tzaangors: The first unit of thirty tzaangors, the ones who get to use the deep strike stratagem and warptime and have the option to use Cycle of Slaughter if there's a high enough reward, those Tzaangors are markedly superior to any unit of rubrics. When you look at the second unit of tzaangors, where your only choices are bad (Deep strike them again, but now it costs 2CP to do it, and they don't get warptime for a reliable charge, or put them in a rhino that costs more points than the whole squad, or put them out on foot where they'll just get shot before they do anything) that unit and all units following it are largely pointless. Can you make a Tzaangor focused list by souping into a Chaos detachment and bringing them alongside other good chaos units? You probably can, since the Tsons trait is largely going to be irrelevant in a tzaangor based list. Can you also build a Tsons army using rubrics as the rest of the troops and have it be reasonably successful? I certainly have, I've used my one unit of thirty tzaangors alongside rubrics and been totally happy with it.

Yeah I don't think it has to be an OR situation with Rubrics and Tzaangors, not in a pure army. I think they can play relatively well off one another (and both ultimately do different things). I will say from a soup-y stand point I prefer Tzaangors to Rubrics but I think a pure TSons army you can and likely should be running both of the units.

Shinzra wrote:
Its quite interesting seeing the divide in the community for the codex. Some people really really like it, then others sound like they think its trash.

I wouldn't call it a divide.

There are some very loud voices on each side, but overall people seem to agree about some basic ideas: the relative value of certain units, the ones that are overcosted, the effectiveness of psychic / tzaangors, etc.

The big question seems to be whether Rubrics and Tzaangors belong in the same book. Tzaangors have some obvious benefits, and it's hard to build an effective army that's pure Rubrics. The fact they have to work together for the Codex to be good seems to be what's really ticking people off. It would be nice to run a Thousand Sons army without the chaff.

For me, it helps when I call Tzaangors BEASTMEN. We had them in Rogue Trader and GW made the bad decision to drop them out of the 40k universe. When I look at Tzaangors all I can think is these are Beastmen with bird parts. Fits the fluff.

So I like having Beastmen back, but do they belong in Codex: TS? It's disappointing that this is the only place GW chooses to represent them. Beastmen we're not just hordes in the original fluff, they were mutants that represented a large percentage of the population on human worlds - along with mutants, abhumans, etc. They should be an option for every Chaos army.

There's a lot of reasons TS would want to have cheap, disposable creatures doing their bidding. That's what Sorcerers do, they have minions scurrying around for them.

It just feels like TS depend too much on Tzaangors and this was a poor design decision. GW could have done so much more with them.

"All fine and dandy and if you reread my post carefully I state how it's stupid to compare these units in a vacuum."

Mate, I'm just responding to *your* hypothetical fight! And no, you said no such thing in the post I was responding to. You may have been thinking it, but it's nowhere to be found in that post.

1) You build a hypothetical fight which appeared to show Rubrics winning in a 1-1 fight.
2)When I pointed out that that was because they went first, and proved that to be the case, suddenly ...
3) there's screening units too.
4) And now comparing units in a vacuum is stupid.

3 & 4 were excluded by the terms of *your* hypothesis...

All shooting units need a screen in 8th. That's not a rubric thing, that's an 8th edition thing. Tzaangors serve a lovely double function where you invest some extra points into them, and they can either serve as a competent screen, or they can serve as a melee alpha strike tying things up in the matchup vs a gunline.

They go beyond the bare minimum, but I don't think they're 100% necessary if you're not playing top tier tournament level stuff. You can get the screen component without the alpha strike with Cultists, Brimstones, heck I've even had pretty good success with Flamers (the daemon unit, not the weapon) in that role. You need a unit to stand more than 4" away from the shooty stuff in a line, that's it, or those melee alpha matchups are going to make you sad every time.

The Tzaangors are just really nice as an auxiliary because they help equally in most every matchup, while the cheap cultists or whatever only help vs the melee alpha. They're both screen and highly effective distraction carnifex.

If you were so inclined, Bloodletters would probably do you just as good, if not better, in that distraction carnifex role. they'd certainly kill more stuff.But they'd be much less fluffy, so I'll use the tzaangors.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
Yeah I don't think it has to be an OR situation with Rubrics and Tzaangors, not in a pure army. I think they can play relatively well off one another (and both ultimately do different things). I will say from a soup-y stand point I prefer Tzaangors to Rubrics but I think a pure TSons army you can and likely should be running both of the units.

Agreed. Almost every list of mine has Rubrics, Tzaangors, and Cultists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

grouchoben wrote:
"All fine and dandy and if you reread my post carefully I state how it's stupid to compare these units in a vacuum."

Mate, I'm just responding to *your* hypothetical fight! And no, you said no such thing in the post I was responding to. You may have been thinking it, but it's nowhere to be found in that post.

Here - I found it for you:

If you're within 12" (e.g. you landed and killed my screen).

 techsoldaten wrote:

Shinzra wrote:
Its quite interesting seeing the divide in the community for the codex. Some people really really like it, then others sound like they think its trash.

I wouldn't call it a divide.

There are some very loud voices on each side, but overall people seem to agree about some basic ideas: the relative value of certain units, the ones that are overcosted, the effectiveness of psychic / tzaangors, etc.

The big question seems to be whether Rubrics and Tzaangors belong in the same book. Tzaangors have some obvious benefits, and it's hard to build an effective army that's pure Rubrics. The fact they have to work together for the Codex to be good seems to be what's really ticking people off. It would be nice to run a Thousand Sons army without the chaff.

For me, it helps when I call Tzaangors BEASTMEN. We had them in Rogue Trader and GW made the bad decision to drop them out of the 40k universe. When I look at Tzaangors all I can think is these are Beastmen with bird parts. Fits the fluff.

So I like having Beastmen back, but do they belong in Codex: TS? It's disappointing that this is the only place GW chooses to represent them. Beastmen we're not just hordes in the original fluff, they were mutants that represented a large percentage of the population on human worlds - along with mutants, abhumans, etc. They should be an option for every Chaos army.

There's a lot of reasons TS would want to have cheap, disposable creatures doing their bidding. That's what Sorcerers do, they have minions scurrying around for them.

It just feels like TS depend too much on Tzaangors and this was a poor design decision. GW could have done so much more with them.

Well.. Yes they are beastmen with bird parts. Tzaangors are essentially Tzeentch Marked/Mutated Beastmen like the old days, instead of a brighter color or changed horns they changed them to fit the aesthetic.

Pestigor's were mentioned in the fluff, and beastmen are as well. Hopefully we'll see some new stuff for our old mutated friends. (Bring back Slaangors!)

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Well.. Yes they are beastmen with bird parts. Tzaangors are essentially Tzeentch Marked/Mutated Beastmen like the old days, instead of a brighter color or changed horns they changed them to fit the aesthetic.

Spoiler:

Pestigor's were mentioned in the fluff, and beastmen are as well. Hopefully we'll see some new stuff for our old mutated friends. (Bring back Slaangors!)

I had completely forgotten they appeared in Slaves to Darkness. Good find!

The best part about that page is the sentence: "Chaos Spawn are subject to the rules for stupidity."

 techsoldaten wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Well.. Yes they are beastmen with bird parts. Tzaangors are essentially Tzeentch Marked/Mutated Beastmen like the old days, instead of a brighter color or changed horns they changed them to fit the aesthetic.

Spoiler:

Pestigor's were mentioned in the fluff, and beastmen are as well. Hopefully we'll see some new stuff for our old mutated friends. (Bring back Slaangors!)

I had completely forgotten they appeared in Slaves to Darkness. Good find!

The best part about that page is the sentence: "Chaos Spawn are subject to the rules for stupidity."

Every time someone complains about "randomness for randomness' sake" ruining things in modern 40k, I think back to some of the rules that used to exist in previous editions/older games.

Anyone feel like playing Ogres/Vamps in blood bowl? roll a die every time you want to use a unit for anything. On a 1, it doesn't do it. WOW FUN!

the_scotsman wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Well.. Yes they are beastmen with bird parts. Tzaangors are essentially Tzeentch Marked/Mutated Beastmen like the old days, instead of a brighter color or changed horns they changed them to fit the aesthetic.

Spoiler:

Pestigor's were mentioned in the fluff, and beastmen are as well. Hopefully we'll see some new stuff for our old mutated friends. (Bring back Slaangors!)

I had completely forgotten they appeared in Slaves to Darkness. Good find!

The best part about that page is the sentence: "Chaos Spawn are subject to the rules for stupidity."

Every time someone complains about "randomness for randomness' sake" ruining things in modern 40k, I think back to some of the rules that used to exist in previous editions/older games.

Anyone feel like playing Ogres/Vamps in blood bowl? roll a die every time you want to use a unit for anything. On a 1, it doesn't do it. WOW FUN!

Ha! But back then many armies were subject to that, the Ork painboy chart is what gave us old Ghazzy in the first place, not even counting the amazing things you could cobble together in the old ranged weapon chart.

But yeah, I feel that Tsons should get more Rubric stuff.. and more planet of the Sorcerer stuff too. Either way I really want the Scarab Sorcerers to get a unique weapon rather then just standard power swords (Maybe Power Khopesh instead?)

ITT people who dont have a clue how to play TS let alone 40k in general, and people who dont know TS lore

Why are you like this dakka whyyy

Rubrics vs. Tzaangors = Irrelevant as both units are in our army.

Rubrics = cost prohibitive in general = relevant

Compare Intercessors with Stalker Bolt Rifles (-2AP, 1 shot, heavy) with their 2W/2A/6"M to the Rubrics with a Psychic power and double shots in 12". 20 points for Intercessors vs. 22 for a Rubric.

That's more apples to apples comparison. Rubrics are meant to be a tanky fire base that hangs back, so are intercessors.

Add a wound and attack to Rubrics to call it a day.

Zodd1888 wrote:
Rubrics vs. Tzaangors = Irrelevant as both units are in our army.

Rubrics = cost prohibitive in general = relevant

Compare Intercessors with Stalker Bolt Rifles (-2AP, 1 shot, heavy) with their 2W/2A/6"M to the Rubrics with a Psychic power and double shots in 12". 20 points for Intercessors vs. 22 for a Rubric.

That's more apples to apples comparison. Rubrics are meant to be a tanky fire base that hangs back, so are intercessors.

Add a wound and attack to Rubrics to call it a day.

20 for Rubrics. Or are you averaging their cost with the sorcerer?

They do need a point drop. I don't think anyone denies that, but taking them to 16 instead of 18 is only going to save me 30 to 40 points in my list and I still wouldn't drop my screens. It might make taking big blobs more of a possibility, but that's all. Flamers coming down would be nicer in my opinion.

Honestly, i kind of want an additional benefit to the Sorcerer. I mean since he no longer has a debuff for dying.

Maybe if you don't cast with the Sorcerer he could use his sorcerer might to improve the Rubrics once per turn. Like

A multi-tool: Gets several things he can buff them on. Let them aim better (+1BS), make them hit harder (AP-3 or S5 instead), or fire more flames (+1 to shots, or Rapid fire 2)

I will interject my thoughts once more. A big problem with AS and the unit they are attached to is that the AS is limited to casting from change. This often times leaves them to mini-smite which goes against the spirit and reasons for the change that allows them to take a power.

This does not take into account perils.

Let us look at units that are restricted to casting from Change.
SoTs
Rubrics
Tzaangor Shaman.

Let us not assume we give core powers like weaver and glamour to a more reliable casting platform such as Magnus and Ahriman/terminator sorc. So with that in mind if we take two rubric squads, one SoT squad and one Shaman.

There is a very real chance that boon will be a dead spell for many lists (which is a problem with that spell) so we give glamour to the shaman and weaver to the SoTs. We then give firestorm and the heal (name escapes me at 4:43 am). Now we are out of spells from that disp to give to any of our exalteds,sorcs, termi sorcs and or extra shaman.

This problem is greatly compounded if you choose to give weaver and glamour to a better casting platform seeing as how critical those spells can be. You see where this is going.

IMHO rubrics and sots should have not been given the option to take spells but should have had a native power that mimics firestorm in function but follows the rules for smite. Problem solved. That problem at least.

For the last time ill say my piece because redundancy can be annoying. This was a rushed codex. We have some really cool options and stratagems. The codex has serious issues with internal balance and is crippled by some very suspect and foolish rules, I feel if the codex had at least a few more weeks in play testing a lot of the above could have been identified and changed. That said I do enjoy playing 1ksons and am happy we got a codex at all. I am hoping that our feedback will help produce a better codex when and if we get another codex drop.

I think overall after reading this thread and the great amount of discussion and posts it has received, just shows how popular Thousand Sons as a legion are.

And at least from my view, sure rubrics are over costed and other parts could use tweaks, but chapter approved can fix many of those.

So overall to see most people believe it to be a balanced/good army, I think that shows the book is a solid book that hopefully with chapter approved and faqs will get better.

It's not. It's a middle tier codex externally with the most horrible internal balance ever and a serious lack of options.

Let's make one thing clear: TS are not competitive. Period. We will never see TS armies winning tournaments. People who say "yeah but ap-2 shooting" etc have probably never been in a tournament setting. TS would get trampled at tournaments. End of story.

That being said, 90% of warhammer is not played in tournaments. So the sentence above does not matter much. For friendly games, TS are ok. you can either go goats and probably win against your opponent because tzaangor at 7 pts and enlightened at 15 are dirt cheap. or you can play the most intense herohammer since WHFB 6th edition simply by virtue of having great characters. Drown your opponent in spells, manage some synergy around the spells you cast and try to focus fire down critical parts of their army by having all of your army shooting at that one dude over there in the corner. You can also fit a scarab alpha deep strike in the same list with the herohammerish characters and call it a day. And that's pretty much the armies you can build.

With that being said, what most people have a problem with is a codex that really smells like it was written sloppily and in haste. In particular:

1. Rubrics and Scarabs are the exact same thing, period. not only in role but also in points cost. This is bad design.

2. Rubrics have two different entries in two different valid codexes at the same time. After the FAQ. This is sloppy design.

3. TS had 4 kits (rubrics, scarabs, exalted sorcs and Magnus) with half of them being characters and the other two being the same unit twice. This was clearly not enough to make a codex, so they decided to slap all other CSM units that look "tzeentchy enough" and call it a day. The severe lack of synergy between the units, the mismatch between the tactical roles (we have 3 fast units - two of which are goats) and 5 distinct HQ entries (all sorcerers, and an extra sorcerer in fast choices just for kicks). Also the discrepancy between the units available (all the HQs are sorcerers, not one different entry. All Heavy supports are vehicles, not one infantry like havocs or oblits). This is bad design.

4. Exalted sorcerers have absolutely no idea what they are supposed to be doing. No identity, no uniqueness, no real reason of existing. (And that's 1 of your 4 total kits gone). This is bad design.

5. Apparent urge to push goat sales. Anybody tries to deny it they,well, live in denial. No stratagems or synergy for the most iconic units in the army, tons of support and a whole new monster benefiting clearly the hth units (which are???). This is sloppy design.

6. For all their previous reputation, TS units are not extra durable any more. Loss of 4++ save is a big thing, 5++ is widely spread nowdays, many units got it for no points cost change (ie genestealers). Shows that 5++ is not really a thing that should cost points nowdays. Yet rubrics pay premium points for it. Also loss of reroll 1's on saves. All is dust is fine on the rubrics, it's absolutely useless on the scarabs. TS units are priced based on the potential that they could be buffed to be durable, but this is also why we pay points on our sorcerers in the first place. This is bad game design.

7. Aspiring sorcerers are not designed correctly. People say they are "cheap 30 pt psykers, like an astropath blah blah". They are not. You can't pay 30 pts and get one, you need to pay 100+ pts in the least. They can't smite to save their life and they kill their whole unit once they peril with no questions asked. This is 2018, not 2003. Necrons don't self dissapear at 25% any more, tyranids don't eat themselves if out of synapse any more. Self punishing rules have been opted out. Yet this is still a thing for Aspirings. "but you can keep a reroll open and then you are fine". One should never have to plan for failure or designer mistakes. Every other army is free to use their reroll whichever way they see fit. I have to keep mine aside in case the stupid sorcerer decides to nuke his own unit. This is bad game design.

8. The psychic spells of the TS lore are priced (in casting cost) with the backthought that the army has the potential to get bonuses on casting rolls. By doing this they automatically negate the bonus of being able to potentially get bonuses on the casting rolls. For which we do pay premium points on our characters. This is designing on the super safe side of things. Something that has never been done with Eldar codexes for example.

9. Trying to invent lore by force, featuring new different "families" of TS, all of which are some form of blue (ranging from cyan to magenda) with yellow, except the one that's yellow with blue. Wow. Such variety. Many chapters. So diverse. Wow.

10. Magnus is the worst of the existing primarchs. This is a minor thing anyways, because if you go Primarch game you might as well just toss logic and balance out of the window too. So I don't care about this one.

Ultimately the thing is that the codex was designed poorly. It has some very strong parts (warlord traits, relics, HQ choices) and some very very weak parts (rubrics, exalted sorc, internal balance/synergy). Being able to cast a million spells is nice, being forced to cast your million spells in order to bring your dudes on par with the other armies negates that. I used to play TS exclusively in 7th edition. Now, between this codex and the new Tyranid one (my other army), I think I will be pushing 1 game of TS for every 4 games of Tyranids I play. The Tyranid codex really hit it out of the park with the variety, the balance and the multiple ways to play in this edition. It should be an example to all other codices. TS one should be the opposing side of the argument. Not because it's bad (it's not), but because it's rushed, bland and uninteresting.

I cant really disagree with any complaints people have, they are entitled to opinions and I have not even played 1 game yet with the book.

but the models look excellent, I am even a big fan of the tzaangor models and being able to use them for both 40k and sigmar opens up more aspects.

but at the same time, not every book that comes out needs to be a top tier codex, it does not need to be as good as eldar or soup armies.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
10. Magnus is the worst of the existing primarchs. This is a minor thing anyways, because if you go Primarch game you might as well just toss logic and balance out of the window too. So I don't care about this one.

Agree with everything. Just wanted to throw in two cents here. Magnus is garbage on a stick now. He has literally become a display piece for me, he will never leave the cabinet again.

The loss of the re-roll, the fact that they couldn't be bothered to give him a bodyguard unit at least, the decision to give him, after viewing all the new TS warlord traits, they decided to give him the most utterly useless warlord trait possible. Seriously, look at the list, I challenge you to find a TS warlord trait that is worse for him than the one he currently has, it is honestly a trait he can't even use without spending CP.

I almost believe this codex is beyond lazy, at this point I really consider it punitive, for some reason I don't really understand, but there it is.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
...I used to play TS exclusively in 7th edition...

This part here helps me understand the rest of your critique. I'm not saying you're wrong...you're probably right, but the fact that you had skin in the game and they failed to deliver for you really helps frame your hatred of the TS codex.

Me, I've just now decided to start collecting Thousand Sons, and I'm no where near as upset with the options provided. I'm sure there are a lot of gamers out there like me who are just now discovering this army and are happy to be building / painting some gorgeous models. If you allow us a sliver of optimism while we work on our lists and paint our models, I'm sure we'll look forward to hearing some of your veteran advice.

 Voidwraith wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
...I used to play TS exclusively in 7th edition...

This part here helps me understand the rest of your critique. I'm not saying you're wrong...you're probably right, but the fact that you had skin in the game and they failed to deliver for you really helps frame your hatred of the TS codex.

Me, I've just now decided to start collecting Thousand Sons, and I'm no where near as upset with the options provided. I'm sure there are a lot of gamers out there like me who are just now discovering this army and are happy to be building / painting some gorgeous models. If you allow us a sliver of optimism while we work on our lists and paint our models, I'm sure we'll look forward to hearing some of your veteran advice.

I played them in 7th and I enjoy the book. Managing them last edition was a nightmare and they still weren't as useful as they are now. Although I do like the Exalted and SoT sorc better in 7th.

I think the army has 2 linchpin builds.

1 revolves around buffing tzzangors
1 revolves around buffing pink horrors.

Everyone knows the Tzzangor strat but the pink build I only know because thats how I play my Tzeentch daemons. I think TS and Daemons of Tzeentch work better together than with mono build.

Supreme command daemons with
LOC/Fatey/Change Caster

TS battlion
Ahriman
Pinks
some chaff

and mutilators vortex beasts

You clear the chaff with pinks then you charge with a bunch of big models that produce heavy mortal wounds.

The disappointment I am sure lies with the truth that Rubrics got pretty left behind in this codex. At least the terminators are pretty good - I just haven't figured out the best way to use them.

All in all. I'd say it's on the upper end of the middle. Probably not quite as good as tyranids but plays at about the same level.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think the army has 2 linchpin builds.

1 revolves around buffing tzzangors
1 revolves around buffing pink horrors.

Except TS is horrible at buffing Pinks, and they break the Legion bonus when included in a detachment. The reality is if you want to use Tzeentch Daemons you're better off using one of the CSM Legions, you'll have more synergy and more useful units.

There is literally no reason for this codex to exist in its current form. It is entirely masturbatory.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

There is literally no reason for this codex to exist in its current form. It is entirely masturbatory.

Sure. Instead of going in circles forever the interested parties can come discuss the book intelligently in the tactics thread. I'm done looking at ridiculous hyperbole.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Sure. Instead of going in circles forever the interested parties can come discuss the book intelligently in the tactics thread. I'm done looking at ridiculous hyperbole.

I could re-post topaxy's entire post, since he pretty much hit the nail on the head.

But you're right, calling it entirely masturbatory is hyperbolic.

However, I will continue to stand by the fact that there is really no reason to play this army other than aesthetic preference. It is not, and in it's current form, will never be a top table codex. It's not even worth a detachment, you are hindering yourself by including a TS detachment.

This is not the case with Death Guard, who have amazing synergy with Nurgle Daemons, compelling units and strategies, so we know that GW is capable of making a compelling single legion codex.

They simply didn't care enough to do so with Thousand Sons.

Fair enough. I'm taking mono-TS to a local Adepticon format feeder in April and then to Nova. Not a lot of ITC around here at the moment for some reason, but i'll be logging and reporting on all my games after them.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think the army has 2 linchpin builds.

1 revolves around buffing tzzangors
1 revolves around buffing pink horrors.

Except TS is horrible at buffing Pinks, and they break the Legion bonus when included in a detachment. The reality is if you want to use Tzeentch Daemons you're better off using one of the CSM Legions, you'll have more synergy and more useful units.

There is literally no reason for this codex to exist in its current form. It is entirely masturbatory.

Because of the way you are talking about TS not being good at buffing pinks, I must have missed a FAQ or something. I'm thinking the change caster with +1 S bubble combined with a Vortex beast +1 str + a flickering flames cast would make them pretty reliably have 5 S with +1 to wound. So pretty reliable 2+ to wound on infantry and 4+ at worst against up to t9. Daemons can't do this easily because their other +1 str bonus is random. I guess I could make it work with daemons just by bringing a thousand sons spear head with 3 vortex beast and a daemon prince to do the same thing.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also just a question to all you people that seems relevant here.

I bought a full TS army for an amazing deal. Here are the contents.

30 Rubrics
10 Terms
3 Exalted Sorcerers
Ahriman
Magnus

Magnus I'm totally fine with not using but what would be the best things to include to make that list work?

Can I ask, genuinely...who actually expects codices based on such small armies to actually be world-beating competitive lists which can win LVO? Is that an actual expectation of players like Deathwatch, Harlequins, Grey Knights, Thousand Sons etc.

Do players actually believe they'll end up with a book strong enough to take their 10 unit options and beat the rest of the codices out there? I've never seen these mini-armies as anything other than A) a money grab to make you buy a book, and B) a nod to fans of certain sub-factions who wanted some cool models.

Xenomancers wrote:
Also just a question to all you people that seems relevant here.

I bought a full TS army for an amazing deal. Here are the contents.

30 Rubrics
10 Terms
3 Exalted Sorcerers
Ahriman
Magnus

Magnus I'm totally fine with not using but what would be the best things to include to make that list work?

Ahriman

The rest is really up to the chaff you have to guard rubrics and which stratagems you want to make use of. It's highly unlikely that you'd ever have 30 Rubrics in a list. I have a hard time taking more than 5 SOT so you have to really focus on them.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
Can I ask, genuinely...who actually expects codices based on such small armies to actually be world-beating competitive lists which can win LVO? Is that an actual expectation of players like Deathwatch, Harlequins, Grey Knights, Thousand Sons etc.

Do players actually believe they'll end up with a book strong enough to take their 10 unit options and beat the rest of the codices out there? I've never seen these mini-armies as anything other than A) a money grab to make you buy a book, and B) a nod to fans of certain sub-factions who wanted some cool models.

How many units are eldar currently using to win? As long as a book offers the basics...chaff, at, etc...then it should have a good enough chance as long as there are no dark reaper type imbalances.

Shinzra wrote:
I think overall after reading this thread and the great amount of discussion and posts it has received, just shows how popular Thousand Sons as a legion are.

And at least from my view, sure rubrics are over costed and other parts could use tweaks, but chapter approved can fix many of those.

So overall to see most people believe it to be a balanced/good army, I think that shows the book is a solid book that hopefully with chapter approved and faqs will get better.

If dakka is anything to go by id say in completely arbitrary terms that it is more of a 50/50 split in happiness with the codex drop. I am one of the rare few in the middle of the road. I love my faction but I also recognize there are SERIOUS issues with the codex. If you think any of it will get fixed in the next CA then I think you will be sorely disappointed. They had the chance to fix the dual rubric profiles in the FAQ and doubled up on derp instead. I will remain hopeful that GW sold enough Gors to warrant a second codex in a few years. Until then we have what we have.

Also, armies like 1ksons and GK's are highly reliant on the health of the psychic phase (witch - lol) in this edition, is pretty weak.

Table wrote:

Shinzra wrote:
I think overall after reading this thread and the great amount of discussion and posts it has received, just shows how popular Thousand Sons as a legion are.

And at least from my view, sure rubrics are over costed and other parts could use tweaks, but chapter approved can fix many of those.

So overall to see most people believe it to be a balanced/good army, I think that shows the book is a solid book that hopefully with chapter approved and faqs will get better.

If dakka is anything to go by id say in completely arbitrary terms that it is more of a 50/50 split in happiness with the codex drop. I am one of the rare few in the middle of the road. I love my faction but I also recognize there are SERIOUS issues with the codex. If you think any of it will get fixed in the next CA then I think you will be sorely disappointed. They had the chance to fix the dual rubric profiles in the FAQ and doubled up on derp instead. I will remain hopeful that GW sold enough Gors to warrant a second codex in a few years. Until then we have what we have.

Also, armies like 1ksons and GK's are highly reliant on the health of the psychic phase witch in this edition, is pretty weak.

I don't expect any significant changes will come to TS until September the earliest. GW is going to let them sit for a while. It's a decent book and other things need to come down towards it for the moment.

So we have had some posts saying what they don't like and the cons with the codex.

Let's add some positives as Well, as it seems to be a very popular legion and many players may wish to try the army out and start collecting especially if your not a tournament player.

From what I can tell

. Tzangors
. Ahriman
. Best daemon princes
. Warlord traits and relic options seem good to me

. Tzangor enlightened also probably need play testing but on paper for the pts cost, sound a nice mobile unit.

. 6 inch extra range on psychic powers, I think is very strong tbh especially when you have a wide range of spells to choose from

Shinzra wrote:
So we have had some posts saying what they don't like and the cons with the codex.

Let's add some positives as Well, as it seems to be a very popular legion and many players may wish to try the army out and start collecting especially if your not a tournament player.

From what I can tell

. Tzangors
. Ahriman
. Best daemon princes
. Warlord traits and relic options seem good to me

. Tzangor enlightened also probably need play testing but on paper for the pts cost, sound a nice mobile unit.

. 6 inch extra range on psychic powers, I think is very strong tbh especially when you have a wide range of spells to choose from

I would add the following
Mutalith Vortex Beast
Spawn having some use due to the stratagem (that is if your opponent does not delete them first).
Excellent Stratagems despite VoTLW being the only one to buff ranged attackers.
Shaman are great elite purchases that not only buff but also have some offense along with speed.

Enlightened Tzaangor are a steal at the current point values. Very flexible unit that can either provide ranged skirmishing fast attack options or my favorite is to give them divining spears as to let them threaten vehicles and monsters along with infantry. Add in a shaman while casting prescience on them gives them auto wounding on 4+. Combine that with the 2 damage spears and you can skewer bad things. Also hitting them with the -1 ap option from the vortex beast puts them at str 5 -2 ap and 2 damage on the charge. Thats is a nice package if all the buffs land. Even without one or two components they tear things up all the while being cheap as dirt.

We also get nearly unrestricted access to CSM vehicle and demon engines (unlike the Death Guard), This is a bigger deal than most admit. Add in forge world options like a Fire Raptor (cast glamour on it for a lol -2 to be hit) or the various hel brutes and you have some serious hitting power.

Honestly the codex is just under tournament tier. With a few tweeks and point drops we could have been up there with the other top tier armies.

 Elbows wrote:
Can I ask, genuinely...who actually expects codices based on such small armies to actually be world-beating competitive lists which can win LVO? Is that an actual expectation of players like Deathwatch, Harlequins, Grey Knights, Thousand Sons etc.

Do players actually believe they'll end up with a book strong enough to take their 10 unit options and beat the rest of the codices out there? I've never seen these mini-armies as anything other than A) a money grab to make you buy a book, and B) a nod to fans of certain sub-factions who wanted some cool models.

Nobody. This is not a rant about the power level of TS. This is a rant about how uninspired and cheap can a codex be. The Tyranid codex has 40 ish different entries of units and all of them manage to feel and play different, unique and with a distinct role upon the table, and that does not even account for the different hive fleets that can make armies play completely different from each other even if they have the same composition. Are they all good units? No, but that's not the point. There's variety, there's pluralism, there are unique playstyles and above all: THERE IS FUN in playing the new Tyranids. If tyranids can manage to find 40 unique adaptations for 40 different units, then TS should have been able to do so with 10 units. Let's see Tyranids vs TS per slot on the variety scale:

HQ: Tyranids:
Hive tyrant (can play as flying dakka, flying melee or backfield artillery + synapse provider), also psyker.
Broodlord: melee powerhouse, buffer for genestealers
Tyranid Prime: Warrior facilitator, buffer for warriors, synapse provider, midfield support.
Tervigon: Summoning specialist, buffer for termagants, shooting platform, durable HQ, weak psyker
The Swarmlord: Slow midfield close combat specialist, army synergy facilitator, psyker
Neurothrope: Psyker, buffer for Zoanthropes., cheap.
Old One Eye: Buffer for carnifexes, melee powerhouse, durable.

Bonus tyranid characters outside HQ:
Deathleaper: Assassination expert and front line facilitator.
Trygon Prime: Deep strike monster, alpha strike facilitator for your units, Deep strike enabler, durable, melee powerhouse, forward synapse support.

Let's do the same for TS:

Ahriman: Psyker, buffer for everyone with the same aura as the other HQ.
Exalted Sorcerer: Psyker, buffer for everyone with the same aura as the other HQ.
Sorcerer: Psyker
Daemon Prince: Psyker, buffer for everyone with the same aura as the other HQ, melee powerhouse.
Magnus: Psyker, buffer for everyone with the same aura plus an extra aura as the other HQ, melee powerhouse.

Bonus characters outside the HQ slot:

Tzaangor Shaman: Psyker. buffer for tzaangors.

See the example above. See the depth and pluralism of the Tyranid HQ slots vs the equivalent one for the TS. This is what I am talking about. We have half the amount of units and options of tyranids and yet we still managed to hastily copy-paste everything on the same models. Here's how EASILY I can fix that for you in 3 minutes:

Ahriman: Add black staff: Whenever he casts a power that inflicts MW, that power inflicts one additional MW instead. Make his aura "reroll 1's to saves" instead. Now you have a witchfire specialist who can double as protection for your units.
Exalted Sorcerer: Take away his 18 powers, give him 3 distinct unique psychic powers, all of them augmenting hth potential. Keep his aura. Make him cheaper and give him a badass hth weapon. Now you have a great battle wizard and also buffer for your shooting units.
Sorcerer: Give him +1 to cast. Give him option to go on a bike or a disc. Now you have a great sorcerer with an actual reason to pick him and he can act as a buffer or a facilitator as you see fit.
Daemon Prince: Make his aura only work on daemons. Now you have a unit that's not auto-take but still feels powerful enough to consider on a specialized list.
Magnus: Change his reroll 1's to hit aura with a +1 to cast aura for the sorcerers.

Extra points:
Aspriring sorcerers: Make them HQ. Able to join units of rubrics or scarabs respectively. They can only mini smite and no actual powers, but they give their unit +1 invul save and +1 movement. While at it, lower the cost of rubrics and scarab units.

Look above. Now you can play your HQ without feeling you just picked the same unit 3 times. Want psychic dakka? Pick Ahriman. Want melee TS? Pick exalted sorcerers. Want Daemon summoning? Pick DP. Want an all around decent caster? Pick a sorcerer. Want to play your rubrics cheap and weak -mindless automaton style- ? Play them naked. Or add an aspiring and suddenly the automatons are augmented by the presence of their sorcerer around them, they become faster, more organized and more durable.

Suddenly, you can have different army list building which don't feel like a chore and you have PLURALISM in your army. And it only took me 3 mins and 10 lines to do it. Surely proffessionals can do better. Or at least they should.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Ahriman: Add black staff: Whenever he casts a power that inflicts MW, that power inflicts one additional MW instead. Make his aura "reroll 1's to saves" instead. Now you have a witchfire specialist who can double as protection for your units.

You just forced Ahriman to being the most boring character ever. Firestorm, Infernal Gaze, and Doombolt would be the only spells he ever takes. That's just lazy.

Exalted Sorcerer: Take away his 18 powers, give him 3 distinct unique psychic powers, all of them augmenting hth potential. Keep his aura. Make him cheaper and give him a badass hth weapon. Now you have a great battle wizard and also buffer for your shooting units.

Here's an idea. Stick him on a disk. Give him Seer's Bane, Diabolic Stregnth, and CP swap for Boon of Change. Cast Boon of Mutation on him from AS. You now have 6 S6/S12 AP3 D3 attacks. If you manage to roll a 7 or 9 you get D3 + 1 on that weapon. Look at that - great battle wizard.

Sorcerer: Give him +1 to cast. Give him option to go on a bike or a disc. Now you have a great sorcerer with an actual reason to pick him and he can act as a buffer or a facilitator as you see fit.

You got me there. There isn't a lot of reasons to take him outside of saving 27 points over an exalted, but I still find myself using it as he still stands as a very flexible caster.

Daemon Prince: Make his aura only work on daemons. Now you have a unit that's not auto-take but still feels powerful enough to consider on a specialized list.

Even without his aura entirely he's auto-take.

Magnus: Change his reroll 1's to hit aura with a +1 to cast aura for the sorcerers.

Might be a little strong and doesn't solve his other problems.

Aspriring sorcerers: Make them HQ. Able to join units of rubrics or scarabs respectively. They can only mini smite and no actual powers, but they give their unit +1 invul save and +1 movement. While at it, lower the cost of rubrics and scarab units.

That causes a bunch of list building and rules quandaries and you'd have to offload the cost drop to him.



The variety of this army happens at spell selection or which spells and units you want to work around. The book is not limited to itself, either. And sure, blah blah, not Thousand Sons.

Ultra Horrors - DP, Changecaster, Mutalith, and blocks of Horrors
Tzaangor Bomb
"Monster" Mash - Defilers, Maulerfiends, buffs
Bridage lists centered around using CP abilities
"Biker" gors - 6x6 (better for morale) Enlightened w/ melee focused exalted and a couple shaman or under 1000 - add tzaangors, msu rubrics, mutaliths, and heldrakes to your liking
"The lost" - spawn and more spawn and msu rubrics
Leadership bomb - Mutaliths and Raptors

Among many other options.

The very fact that we do need other codexes to build interesting list should be an alarm in itself imho. I can't accept your logic. Because if I'm going to use other codexes, why do I really need TS in the first place?

topaxygouroun i wrote:
The very fact that we do need other codexes to build interesting list should be an alarm in itself imho. I can't accept your logic. Because if I'm going to use other codexes, why do I really need TS in the first place?

All of those units are in codex thousand sons.

It's not exactly a problem with Tsons though, given how many armies are souping up.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
The very fact that we do need other codexes to build interesting list should be an alarm in itself imho. I can't accept your logic. Because if I'm going to use other codexes, why do I really need TS in the first place?

All of those units are in codex thousand sons.

It's not exactly a problem with Tsons though, given how many armies are souping up.

Raptors and tzeentch heralds are not. Without heralds, picking horrors is useless (plus the horrors in the TS book do not have thousand sons keyword so they can only be summoned, not selected in a list).

I don't think you have to ally at all or soup up.

34% currently off the poll view them as a good army that can compete, for many including myself that's fine.

Don't need to be the best codex out there

Shinzra wrote:
I don't think you have to ally at all or soup up.

34% currently off the poll view them as a good army that can compete, for many including myself that's fine.

Don't need to be the best codex out there

I just want it to be interesting even if I lose every time. Even casting powers is not fun for me any more. Sure 18 powers and all this, but it's essentially buffs and d3 MW placers. I just want variety in my TS menu. And I don't feel like I have it right now.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
The very fact that we do need other codexes to build interesting list should be an alarm in itself imho. I can't accept your logic. Because if I'm going to use other codexes, why do I really need TS in the first place?

Mutaliths, enlightened, spell access, casting bonuses, and relics.

You could do similar lists without TS, but csm nor cd have casters this strong (barring greater daemons) or units at all like enlightened or mutaliths among other things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Shinzra wrote:
I don't think you have to ally at all or soup up.

34% currently off the poll view them as a good army that can compete, for many including myself that's fine.

Don't need to be the best codex out there

I just want it to be interesting even if I lose every time. Even casting powers is not fun for me any more. Sure 18 powers and all this, but it's essentially buffs and d3 MW placers. I just want variety in my TS menu. And I don't feel like I have it right now.

I dunno. I find great enjoyment on nabbing a +4 to cast (without magnus) and forcing through a game changing spell, the high flexibility of deploy plus DMC, or forcing my opponent to alter their plan through, buffs, debuffs, and strats.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Shinzra wrote:
I don't think you have to ally at all or soup up.

34% currently off the poll view them as a good army that can compete, for many including myself that's fine.

Don't need to be the best codex out there

I just want it to be interesting even if I lose every time. Even casting powers is not fun for me any more. Sure 18 powers and all this, but it's essentially buffs and d3 MW placers. I just want variety in my TS menu. And I don't feel like I have it right now.

And you have it. Between Three types of gors , vortex beasts, tons of HQ picks, power armored infantry, demon engines and vehicles, you have choice. The problem is you do not like what is on offer not that there is no list diversity. And adding in Tz demon detachments is very fluffy (seeing is how often the sons summon demons).

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
It is not, and in it's current form, will never be a top table codex. It's not even worth a detachment, you are hindering yourself by including a TS detachment.

Oh I don't know - an outrider detachment, for example, could leverage 1kSons pretty nicely -


++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Thousand Sons) [35 PL, 729pts] ++
+ HQ +
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch [9 PL, 180pts]: 5. Otherworldly Prescience, Death Hex, Diabolic Strength, Helm of the Third Eye, Malefic talon, Warlord, Wings
+ Elites +
Tzaangor Shaman [5 PL, 90pts]: Force stave
+ Fast Attack +
Tzaangor Enlightened [7 PL, 153pts]: Aviarch, 8x Enlightened, Fatecaster greatbows
Tzaangor Enlightened [7 PL, 153pts]: Aviarch, 8x Enlightened, Fatecaster greatbows
Tzaangor Enlightened [7 PL, 153pts]: Aviarch, 8x Enlightened, Fatecaster greatbows

That many Enlightened would drop Magnus in 1 round; you gain access to Chaos' only CP farm & Death Hex; every unit has 12" move; you've bought 28 40mm bases, so lots of board control; your shooting can't be stopped by being tied up in CC; and you've got some pretty nice CC of your own to boot.

On the downside, having to paint 27 Enlightened would send you utterly mad.

grouchoben wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
It is not, and in it's current form, will never be a top table codex. It's not even worth a detachment, you are hindering yourself by including a TS detachment.

Oh I don't know - an outrider detachment, for example, could leverage 1kSons pretty nicely -


++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Thousand Sons) [35 PL, 729pts] ++
+ HQ +
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch [9 PL, 180pts]: 5. Otherworldly Prescience, Death Hex, Diabolic Strength, Helm of the Third Eye, Malefic talon, Warlord, Wings
+ Elites +
Tzaangor Shaman [5 PL, 90pts]: Force stave
+ Fast Attack +
Tzaangor Enlightened [7 PL, 153pts]: Aviarch, 8x Enlightened, Fatecaster greatbows
Tzaangor Enlightened [7 PL, 153pts]: Aviarch, 8x Enlightened, Fatecaster greatbows
Tzaangor Enlightened [7 PL, 153pts]: Aviarch, 8x Enlightened, Fatecaster greatbows

That many Enlightened would drop Magnus in 1 round; you gain access to Chaos' only CP farm & Death Hex; every unit has 12" move; you've bought 28 40mm bases, so lots of board control; your shooting can't be stopped by being tied up in CC; and you've got some pretty nice CC of your own to boot.

On the downside, having to paint 27 Enlightened would send you utterly mad.

Looks good. I still think fatecasters are a tad to weak. Id like to see one more AP on them for the price. Then again I run spear enlightened so I have yet to use fatecasters.

grouchoben wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
It is not, and in it's current form, will never be a top table codex. It's not even worth a detachment, you are hindering yourself by including a TS detachment.

Oh I don't know - an outrider detachment, for example, could leverage 1kSons pretty nicely -


++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Thousand Sons) [35 PL, 729pts] ++
+ HQ +
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch [9 PL, 180pts]: 5. Otherworldly Prescience, Death Hex, Diabolic Strength, Helm of the Third Eye, Malefic talon, Warlord, Wings
+ Elites +
Tzaangor Shaman [5 PL, 90pts]: Force stave
+ Fast Attack +
Tzaangor Enlightened [7 PL, 153pts]: Aviarch, 8x Enlightened, Fatecaster greatbows
Tzaangor Enlightened [7 PL, 153pts]: Aviarch, 8x Enlightened, Fatecaster greatbows
Tzaangor Enlightened [7 PL, 153pts]: Aviarch, 8x Enlightened, Fatecaster greatbows

That many Enlightened would drop Magnus in 1 round; you gain access to Chaos' only CP farm & Death Hex; every unit has 12" move; you've bought 28 40mm bases, so lots of board control; your shooting can't be stopped by being tied up in CC; and you've got some pretty nice CC of your own to boot.

On the downside, having to paint 27 Enlightened would send you utterly mad.

the fluff fan in me notes the total lack of actual thousand sons in that list and cries

I'd probably add Ahriman to that detachment. It is, however, a perfect example of why people are unhappy with the Thousand Sons codex; what's effective isn't what we want to play.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I'd probably add Ahriman to that detachment. It is, however, a perfect example of why people are unhappy with the Thousand Sons codex; what's effective isn't what we want to play.

In fairness though thats often a curse of marine armies in general. The ONLY time I can recall seeing folks since I started in 5th taking for example a "3 tac squads 1 assault 1 devestator" core was in 7th with formations.

and during 6th/7th codex chaos marines was refered to as "codex helldrakes and cultists"

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I'd probably add Ahriman to that detachment. It is, however, a perfect example of why people are unhappy with the Thousand Sons codex; what's effective isn't what we want to play.

As Brian above me noted this is a wide spread problem with marines in general and affects all flavors of them. For a bit of time at the end of 7th GW had to give free razorbacks when taking a tactical squad of marines as part of a formation. It was a great formation and actually saw many top tables but it was not because of the tacticals but the razorbacks.

That being said I think there is a bit of hyperbole when dealing with the MEQ statline infantry. The problem is compounded in this edition because 6's are wounds. This means it is better to have 30 las guns than 10 bolters seeing as both cant threaten harder targets beyond rolling a 6. So im afraid a massive price drop is in order and I am pretty sure GW will never do that. My point in this rambling is that expect this to be a ongoing problem with the game.

I myself run rubrics just for fluff and that I love the models. I am never under the impression that they will make their points back (sometimes they do something cool) and mostly use them to anchor a defense. So yea, long live the Thousand Gors.

Table wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I'd probably add Ahriman to that detachment. It is, however, a perfect example of why people are unhappy with the Thousand Sons codex; what's effective isn't what we want to play.

As Brian above me noted this is a wide spread problem with marines in general and affects all flavors of them. For a bit of time at the end of 7th GW had to give free razorbacks when taking a tactical squad of marines as part of a formation. It was a great formation and actually saw many top tables but it was not because of the tacticals but the razorbacks.

That being said I think there is a bit of hyperbole when dealing with the MEQ statline infantry. The problem is compounded in this edition because 6's are wounds. This means it is better to have 30 las guns than 10 bolters seeing as both cant threaten harder targets beyond rolling a 6. So im afraid a massive price drop is in order and I am pretty sure GW will never do that. My point in this rambling is that expect this to be a ongoing problem with the game.

I myself run rubrics just for fluff and that I love the models. I am never under the impression that they will make their points back (sometimes they do something cool) and mostly use them to anchor a defense. So yea, long live the Thousand Gors.

I think the problem is more due to a pre ponderance of hard targets then anything else. It'd be intreasting to see how things would change if the standard etachment was 2-3 HQs. 3-6 troops.0-1 fast attack. 0-1 heavy etc

BrianDavion wrote:

Table wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I'd probably add Ahriman to that detachment. It is, however, a perfect example of why people are unhappy with the Thousand Sons codex; what's effective isn't what we want to play.

As Brian above me noted this is a wide spread problem with marines in general and affects all flavors of them. For a bit of time at the end of 7th GW had to give free razorbacks when taking a tactical squad of marines as part of a formation. It was a great formation and actually saw many top tables but it was not because of the tacticals but the razorbacks.

That being said I think there is a bit of hyperbole when dealing with the MEQ statline infantry. The problem is compounded in this edition because 6's are wounds. This means it is better to have 30 las guns than 10 bolters seeing as both cant threaten harder targets beyond rolling a 6. So im afraid a massive price drop is in order and I am pretty sure GW will never do that. My point in this rambling is that expect this to be a ongoing problem with the game.

I myself run rubrics just for fluff and that I love the models. I am never under the impression that they will make their points back (sometimes they do something cool) and mostly use them to anchor a defense. So yea, long live the Thousand Gors.

I think the problem is more due to a pre ponderance of hard targets then anything else. It'd be intreasting to see how things would change if the standard etachment was 2-3 HQs. 3-6 troops.0-1 fast attack. 0-1 heavy etc

I agree that it is a problem but I do not expect that to ever happen as it would hamper model sales. IMHO the best bet is a big point drop OR a buff to the basic bolter of +1 str and 1 ap. Of course warpbolters would have to be buffed as well.

Lets say Rubric marines did get a points drop for a moment, and went down to say 18ppm with the heavy weapons being reduced in pts as well say by 5.

Would Rubrics then be considered a good option at that stage?.

I ask as the biggest complaint with Rubrics from what I can gather is the cost, so if they went down (Which could happen easily). At that stage they could then be a better option.

Sure I can understand the aspiring sorcs views as well, no one wants to perils from effectively a sergeant, though I personally think it adds to the fun and the theme of a psychic dominate army

Shinzra wrote:
Would Rubrics then be considered a good option at that stage?.

Yes, they would.

In order to function properly, Thousand Sons need at least 9CP. For that you need 2 Bataillons. Saving 40 or 60pts (because, imo, Scarabs also need to drop by 4pts) gives us 1 or 2 troop units (Cultists, Horrors) to fill the second Bataillon, if you were running 20 Rubrics and 5 Scarabs to begin with. That's huge.

Reducing Warpflamers by 3 to 5pts would also help greatly, just like allowing the Soulreaper to be used in 5-men squads. At this stage, Rubrics would be a decent (but not broken) choice in Thousand Sons armies.

Shinzra wrote:
Sure I can understand the aspiring sorcs views as well, no one wants to perils from effectively a sergeant, though I personally think it adds to the fun and the theme of a psychic dominate army

I've played tons of games with my Thousand Sons and I can tell you one thing : Perils of the warp are *not* fun. When you run 8 or 9 Psykers, one of them Perils every other turn, taking with him a hefty part of your army if you don't have any CP left. Other armies don't have to worry about that. They can use their CP freely.

What's worse is that GW balanced every spells around the buffs that we could potentially have. Miasma of Pestilence (Nurgle) is WC6 because Death Guard has no +1 to Psychic powers. The exact same power for Thousand Sons (Glamour of Tzeentch) is WC7. Plague Wind is WC5 while Tzeentch Firestorm is WC7. This is nonsense truly.

And to add insult to the injury, Psychic powers can be denied, while Orders cannot and don't even have to roll a die in order to work...

I think making the AS's peril only affect him, and restoring Soulreaper @ 5 man MSU, keeping the current points cost, would be a straight forward solution.

 Nym wrote:

Shinzra wrote:
Would Rubrics then be considered a good option at that stage?.

Yes, they would.

In order to function properly, Thousand Sons need at least 9CP. For that you need 2 Bataillons. Saving 40 or 60pts (because, imo, Scarabs also need to drop by 4pts) gives us 1 or 2 troop units (Cultists, Horrors) to fill the second Bataillon, if you were running 20 Rubrics and 5 Scarabs to begin with. That's huge.

Reducing Warpflamers by 3 to 5pts would also help greatly, just like allowing the Soulreaper to be used in 5-men squads. At this stage, Rubrics would be a decent (but not broken) choice in Thousand Sons armies.

Shinzra wrote:
Sure I can understand the aspiring sorcs views as well, no one wants to perils from effectively a sergeant, though I personally think it adds to the fun and the theme of a psychic dominate army

I've played tons of games with my Thousand Sons and I can tell you one thing : Perils of the warp are *not* fun. When you run 8 or 9 Psykers, one of them Perils every other turn, taking with him a hefty part of your army if you don't have any CP left. Other armies don't have to worry about that. They can use their CP freely.

What's worse is that GW balanced every spells around the buffs that we could potentially have. Miasma of Pestilence (Nurgle) is WC6 because Death Guard has no +1 to Psychic powers. The exact same power for Thousand Sons (Glamour of Tzeentch) is WC7. Plague Wind is WC5 while Tzeentch Firestorm is WC7. This is nonsense truly.

And to add insult to the injury, Psychic powers can be denied, while Orders cannot and don't even have to roll a die in order to work...

Yes, they whole thing GW has with giving Tzeentch powers extra WC targets because some of the casters have a potential +1 is pure , i dunno, insanity. Between that and the soulripper fiasco hints that GW creative are not trying to hard with this codex. And that is our codex in a nutshell, a awesome faction with a fun codex that is bleed out by dozens of little cuts like above. I do not expect much of this to change to be honest so I am just resigned to "chaos tax". Ive been used to paying it since the beginning of 7th.

So where does everyone put this codex so far in terms of its level with the other released codex armies, what tier do they fall into?

Shinzra wrote:
So where does everyone put this codex so far in terms of its level with the other released codex armies, what tier do they fall into?

Slap-dab in the middle.

Table wrote:

 Nym wrote:

Shinzra wrote:
Would Rubrics then be considered a good option at that stage?.

Yes, they would.

In order to function properly, Thousand Sons need at least 9CP. For that you need 2 Bataillons. Saving 40 or 60pts (because, imo, Scarabs also need to drop by 4pts) gives us 1 or 2 troop units (Cultists, Horrors) to fill the second Bataillon, if you were running 20 Rubrics and 5 Scarabs to begin with. That's huge.

Reducing Warpflamers by 3 to 5pts would also help greatly, just like allowing the Soulreaper to be used in 5-men squads. At this stage, Rubrics would be a decent (but not broken) choice in Thousand Sons armies.

Shinzra wrote:
Sure I can understand the aspiring sorcs views as well, no one wants to perils from effectively a sergeant, though I personally think it adds to the fun and the theme of a psychic dominate army

I've played tons of games with my Thousand Sons and I can tell you one thing : Perils of the warp are *not* fun. When you run 8 or 9 Psykers, one of them Perils every other turn, taking with him a hefty part of your army if you don't have any CP left. Other armies don't have to worry about that. They can use their CP freely.

What's worse is that GW balanced every spells around the buffs that we could potentially have. Miasma of Pestilence (Nurgle) is WC6 because Death Guard has no +1 to Psychic powers. The exact same power for Thousand Sons (Glamour of Tzeentch) is WC7. Plague Wind is WC5 while Tzeentch Firestorm is WC7. This is nonsense truly.

And to add insult to the injury, Psychic powers can be denied, while Orders cannot and don't even have to roll a die in order to work...

Yes, they whole thing GW has with giving Tzeentch powers extra WC targets because some of the casters have a potential +1 is pure , i dunno, insanity. Between that and the soulripper fiasco hints that GW creative are not trying to hard with this codex. And that is our codex in a nutshell, a awesome faction with a fun codex that is bleed out by dozens of little cuts like above. I do not expect much of this to change to be honest so I am just resigned to "chaos tax". Ive been used to paying it since the beginning of 7th.

These guys are preaching right to the choir. I'll never understand how orders/acts of faith are free without recourse, ie. can't deny, but powers that do the same, or less, can be denied and potentially kill our troops with perils. How are point costs balanced with any of that in mind? I just don't see it.

This isn't even touching on the imbalances of Rubrics/SOT vs. other faction troops. More durability and damage in Nurgle, better Invuln on clowns that shoot better and cost less, Flamer demons are disproportionately cheaper than Flamer Rubrics, etc. The army, despite the new codex, still needs adjustments to put it in line with overall balance.

If only 1KS weren't so pretty or cool. Some days I wish I played Eldar. I'm a spell slinger so those are the armies that motivate me to play/hobby.

Zodd1888 wrote:

Table wrote:

 Nym wrote:

Shinzra wrote:
Would Rubrics then be considered a good option at that stage?.

Yes, they would.

In order to function properly, Thousand Sons need at least 9CP. For that you need 2 Bataillons. Saving 40 or 60pts (because, imo, Scarabs also need to drop by 4pts) gives us 1 or 2 troop units (Cultists, Horrors) to fill the second Bataillon, if you were running 20 Rubrics and 5 Scarabs to begin with. That's huge.

Reducing Warpflamers by 3 to 5pts would also help greatly, just like allowing the Soulreaper to be used in 5-men squads. At this stage, Rubrics would be a decent (but not broken) choice in Thousand Sons armies.

Shinzra wrote:
Sure I can understand the aspiring sorcs views as well, no one wants to perils from effectively a sergeant, though I personally think it adds to the fun and the theme of a psychic dominate army

I've played tons of games with my Thousand Sons and I can tell you one thing : Perils of the warp are *not* fun. When you run 8 or 9 Psykers, one of them Perils every other turn, taking with him a hefty part of your army if you don't have any CP left. Other armies don't have to worry about that. They can use their CP freely.

What's worse is that GW balanced every spells around the buffs that we could potentially have. Miasma of Pestilence (Nurgle) is WC6 because Death Guard has no +1 to Psychic powers. The exact same power for Thousand Sons (Glamour of Tzeentch) is WC7. Plague Wind is WC5 while Tzeentch Firestorm is WC7. This is nonsense truly.

And to add insult to the injury, Psychic powers can be denied, while Orders cannot and don't even have to roll a die in order to work...

Yes, they whole thing GW has with giving Tzeentch powers extra WC targets because some of the casters have a potential +1 is pure , i dunno, insanity. Between that and the soulripper fiasco hints that GW creative are not trying to hard with this codex. And that is our codex in a nutshell, a awesome faction with a fun codex that is bleed out by dozens of little cuts like above. I do not expect much of this to change to be honest so I am just resigned to "chaos tax". Ive been used to paying it since the beginning of 7th.

These guys are preaching right to the choir. I'll never understand how orders/acts of faith are free without recourse, ie. can't deny, but powers that do the same, or less, can be denied and potentially kill our troops with perils. How are point costs balanced with any of that in mind? I just don't see it.

This isn't even touching on the imbalances of Rubrics/SOT vs. other faction troops. More durability and damage in Nurgle, better Invuln on clowns that shoot better and cost less, Flamer demons are disproportionately cheaper than Flamer Rubrics, etc. The army, despite the new codex, still needs adjustments to put it in line with overall balance.

If only 1KS weren't so pretty or cool. Some days I wish I played Eldar. I'm a spell slinger so those are the armies that motivate me to play/hobby.

I know, guard may be top choice atm but Eldar have had a long history of being very good despite edition changes. You can always expect a Eldar codex to preform. If only I liked elves.....but those 15 pnt warpflamers bro! See, now im just salty. I gotta stop.

After playing a few games my impression is that the Codex is not terrible, certainly there were a lost of missed opportunity, and this codex really feels much more rushed than any other codex. Let me start by saying I am not one of the people that hate the Gors, I actually really like them and like the fact that our army is not just CSM, but rubric. I love rubrics too, but having the Gors makes this codex feel unique. The Gor units are also all pointed very fairly in my opinion. Also I like that we have basically 12 spells to pick from for most of our HQs, and I like the daemon princes being better and having 18 spells. We have some really good relics too, so that works well. The stratagems are good, deep strike is nice, and we have 3 good warlord traits for Daemon Princes, and one for casts (+1 to cast). Arhimin is still good, I like the spell familar for the Terminator Sorcerer. Most of the spells are pretty good except warp charge cost (more on that in a bit) and allowing the Aspiring sorcerer the ability to cast more than smite is nice. These are really all of the positives to me, but I think this codex could have been so much better (and not broken):

1. Legion Trait: The +6" to casting is good, however, it does nothing for our infantry or hellbrutes. Other armies get their Craftworld, Sept, etc to all units (CSM/SM should as well) but our only legion trait (we can't take a successor chapter with a different one) doesn't even affect two of our troop infantry (Gors and Cultists) our hellbrute, or our bike equivalent, Enlightened. Would +6 to cast for all THOUSAND SON CHARACTER key word, and +1 to invul or if no invul 5+ for all Non-Character THOUSAND SON INFANTRY/HELLBRUTE been that broken? The only thing that seems problematic would be Gor infantry, which could have been addressed by lowering their invul to 6+. As of right now CSM cultists/hellbrute are much better as they at least get something out of even the worst legion traits. Or if +1 invul is to much how about re-roll 1's on invul to non-character infantry?

2. Psychic powers are not balanced right: I understand that GW is afraid of the psychic phase becoming what is was in 7th. But really warp charge 9 for doombolt? Warp charge 7 for glamor and firestrom? You can say that these are balanced against the bonus to cast for thousand sons, but that raises two points. First is many of our psykers do not get a bonus, so this is just making them hard to cast. Second, that completely defeats the purpose of having a bonus in the first place. The bonus is to make casting more reliable, since you know, that is the primary focus of our army. Every spell in the Change discipline needs to have the warp charge reduced by at least one (except Weaver). Some of the Tzeentch powers do as well.


3. Rubrics/SoT cost to many points: This has been argued and pointed out ad nauseam on Dakka, so I won't repeat, just agree.

4. No new Models: This is a complaint every army basically has as very few factions got new models. But GW put out a new codex with new Imperial models for an extremely niche faction (Sorry if you play them, I am not being a jerk, they are cool models, but seem really niche). Why did the Custodes need to come out now? Where that many people clamoring for them? GW couldn't have released them toward the end of the year, and given some of those resources to making like 1-3 new models for Thousand Sons? I mean we have 3 elite choices, one of which is a character, and two fast attack (3 if you consider the bow Gors different enough from the spear Gors) one of which is chaos spawn. Would a Rubric Dreadnaught been that hard? I mean Forgeworld made them for years, they couldn't just copy that mold? People have made numerous suggestions on Dakka and they really should have flushed out our codex more. I mean they could even have put the Vortex Beast in Fast attack, and put that up to three, and allowed access to Possessed for elite.

5. Changing the Aura: Taking away the re-roll of the invul hurt what made thousand sons somewhat unique. I don't care about Magnus needing that (I don't use him) and while you can argue that, the re-roll 1s on Invul was one of the things that allowed some resilience for the army, especially if you want your Gors to not deep strike. Was is really that broken out of the Index that it needed to be changed? And if so, why not have a different aura than the one daemon princes have, like re-reroll 1's to wound, or 1's on casting, or whatever.

6. Miscellaneous little things: Not being able to take a soulreaper for less than 5 models (BTW noise marines can take two blast masters at 11 models), All is Dust is worthless on SoT, it needs to be on 2 damage, why can't any sorcerer take a spell familer for +1 on first cast? Would that really be that broken? No force Ax? Magnus and Arhiman have the worst warlord traits (how is Arhiman not +1 to cast!!!).

My final thought is that one of the main issues for Thousand Sons is not even the codex, it is how psychic powers work in this edition. Only being able to attempt each power once really hurts. They don't have a restriction that you can only fire one non-line-of-sight weapon, or only deep strike one unit, or over charge one unit's plasma weapons. The psychic phase is the only phase of the game that has that arbitrary restriction (You can issue multiple orders etc.) Even if it was -1 to cast a second attempt it would much improve psychic armies. And all you need to do is say you can't cast the same power on the same unit ever (so no super stacking etc.) and I think it would not be that much of an issue. But for now the over-correction due to 7th edition seems to be with us for a while.

That is my opinion, have at it.

grouchoben wrote:
That many Enlightened would drop Magnus in 1 round; you gain access to Chaos' only CP farm & Death Hex; every unit has 12" move; you've bought 28 40mm bases, so lots of board control; your shooting can't be stopped by being tied up in CC; and you've got some pretty nice CC of your own to boot.

On the downside, having to paint 27 Enlightened would send you utterly mad.

Lots of things drop Magnus in one round, that's hardly a metric for excellence.

The CP farm is the only thing they bring to the table, out of the entire codex, that does something that cannot be done better by another codex. Sorry, psychic power also, but as has been discussed earlier, once you reach a certain critical mass of psykers, well, it becomes a system of diminishing returns.

If you lose first turn, expect to lose a good chunk if not all those Enlightened, assuming your opponent identifies them as your primary firepower threat.

IMO psychic powers don't bring enough to the table to spam HQ's to make it worthwhile, ie. Snite Spam/Rule of One. Power access can only be augmented by spending CP that is already required for key Strategems, meaning it's a detriment. Further, as stated, WC cost is disproportionately skewed against 1KS, and this isn't even raising the other issues of comparing Orders or Acts.

It's a let down.

Good book, good models, fun to play, unique in concept, poor rules with a few exceptions glimmering in goat filled, prince fueled, warp energy..

Zodd1888 wrote:
IMO psychic powers don't bring enough to the table to spam HQ's to make it worthwhile, ie. Snite Spam/Rule of One. Power access can only be augmented by spending CP that is already required for key Strategems, meaning it's a detriment. Further, as stated, WC cost is disproportionately skewed against 1KS, and this isn't even raising the other issues of comparing Orders or Acts.

It's a let down.

Good book, good models, fun to play, unique in concept, poor rules with a few exceptions glimmering in goat filled, prince fueled, warp energy..

I don't agree. I have a hard time getting enough casters. Between Ahriman, DP, TA sorc, and shaman I still have spells I want to cast, which leaves smite mostly to my AS unless I need them to heal something.

 xeen wrote:
That is my opinion, have at it.

I must say, Sir, that you perfectly summed up what I think of our codex. I find myself agreeing with every single point. Good job.

I agree on psyker spam deal that it's not easy to get over-saturated.

Between ahriman, terminator sorcerer, two princes (though one a "mere" CD one), three rubric squads and a scarab squad-I'm still not really finding myself lacking choices.
Even before looking into redundancy for important spells, there is just enough of them that never hurt having around.

Doing a bit of a themed Thousand Sons army for a game in a couple weeks. Not necessarily trying to go for a WAAC style with this. However I need help deciding on Powers as they are my weakest skillset right now.

Battalion 1:
Ahriman on Disc
Sorcerer in Termie Armor w/ Familiar, Inferno Combi-Bolter, Force Sword
Basic Rubric Squad w/ Icon, Force Stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Inferno Bolters
Basic Rubric Squad w/ Icon, Force Stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Inferno Bolters
Basic Rubric Squad w/ Icon, Force Stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, 4x Warp Flamers

Battalion 2:
Daemon Prince w/ Warlord, Warp Bolter, Wings, 2x Malefic Talons
Exalted Sorc on Disc w/ 2x Power Swords, Inferno Bolt Pistol
Basic Tzaangor squad w/ Icon and Brayhorn
Basic Tzaangor squad w/ Icon and Brayhorn
Basic Tzaangor squad w/ Icon and Brayhorn
Helbrute w/ Fist and Scourge
Maulerfiend w/ Tendrils
Mutalith Vortex Beast

This leaves me with 20 points to spare for upgrades and 9 command points? I feel I probably want the whole Seer's Bane Exalted Sorc on Disc for sure. But the idea is to have one "standard" thousand sons battalion with Rubrics and sorcs and one "beastmaster" battalion with beasts and daemon engines. I'll probably want to deep strike the Rubric Squads?

So I need to figure out how to pick and place all these Psyker skills I'll have access to? Ideas? Also, Relics?

Always Gaze and Diabolic on DP.

Temporal on a couple Rubrics to heal gribblies and have redundancy. Boon on the third to try buffing seers bane sorc.

Termi Sorc takes Prescience to free up Ahriman's smite. Death Hex will be a crucial selection when facing daemons or custodes. Otherwise get Weaver on him to support tzaangors.

If you're keeping Ahriman up front - Gift is great when facing T3 armies. Otherwise Firestorm, Warptime, Prescience.

Seers bane Sorc can support big stuff with Glamour and heal.


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Third eye is mathematically great, but has barely broken even for me some game. Still worth it though.

DMC is good in this list for last minute caps since you lack large units. Webway won't be too good on offense with such small squads as well.

Seers bane is fun. Probably not super optimal unless you plan to use Diabolic on him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and Doombolt is great when facing morty or some fast deathstar. Put it on Ahriman or termie sorc for best odds.

Well, let's try this one instead then:


Battalion
Ahriman on Disc
Daemon Prince w/ Warlord, Warp Bolter, Wings, Malefic Talons
10 x Rubric Squad w/ Sorc, Soul Reaper, Bolter, Icon
5x Rubric Squad w/ Sorc, 4x Warp Flamer, Icon
30x Tzaangor w/ Brayhorn, Icon
Helbrute w/ Fist, Scourge

Spearhead Detachment
Exalted Sorc on Disc w/ Pistol, Two Power Swords
Chaos Pred w/ Havoc Launcher, Pred Autocannon, 2x Lascannon
Maulerfiend w/ Tendrils, Fists
Mutalith Vortex


It seems the answer to powers and relics depends on the opponent. But in general, I'll want to Webway the Rubrics w/ flamers and warptime them first round to clear any chaff. Put the other Rubrics on an objective. Move the Tzaangors or Webway them and get ready for turn 2. I have 3 re-roll hit rolls of 1 buffs so I can easily spread them out (they all move 12" as well) to support the daemon engines and Tzaangors for that charge.

I feel the pred is a dead end? I dont really have a way to protect it from being deepstruck on. But if I can use the pred as bait, then they'll have less units I need to deal with on turns 1 and 2 I guess.

So this has 7 CP to start with. Use 1-2 for webway depending on opponent. Start with the helm and deploy that model first (probably the DP or the Exalted Sorc as Ahriman and the DP will likely be targeted early), pay 1 CP for the crystal. I'll pay 2 more if I think the seer's bane will be necessary depending on opponent. Meaning I'll be spending 1-5 before the game begins but should get some back throughout the game.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
It is, however, a perfect example of why people are unhappy with the Thousand Sons codex; what's effective isn't what we want to play.

Exactly! It makes me sad. But I don't play competitive anyways. But even in casual you want a balanced force that can 'compete' in games without just sucking.

I wouldn't spring for 3 relics normally. Just too much CP. Especially when you Webway two units and fail your Helm rolls.

Realistically a flamer squad that small won't clear much more than a 10 man IG unit. Additionally you don't have the termie sorc to cast warp time so making sure things are in position - especially if you go second - will be difficult.

I'd probably hold the Tzaangors in the Webway to keep them safe. The rest goes on the table with the Helbrute, Mauler, and Mutalith covering the other units. Additionally dropping one Rubric and 3 Tzaangors gets you enough points for 10 cultists to screen/cap - that kills your soul reaper though.

Once you make a hole in their screen dropping in tzaangors should be much easier and you'll be able to keep them supported.

As for spells:

Same deal for the DP - Gaze and Diabolic.
As usual Gift should still be top of mind for any fast caster. Death Hex and Doombolt if needed on the caster with the best bonus.

Exalted - Heal & Weaver (heal himself in combat, too)
Ahriman - Prescience, Glamour, Warptime

Aspiring - Heal backup/Firestorm

Now since you don't have any more casters you'll have to make Rubrics your primary caster for Heal and Weaver if you need to fit Death Hex / Doombolt / Death Hex.

Question: Why need the Term sorc? The exalted sorc can move 12" plus the 9" range of warp time = 21" range. All you need to do is make sure one model is in range. I can easily replace the pred for a term sorc and have points leftover. I dont own any cultists

 nintura wrote:
Question: Why need the Term sorc? The exalted sorc can move 12" plus the 9" range of warp time = 21" range. All you need to do is make sure one model is in range. I can easily replace the pred for a term sorc and have points leftover. I dont own any cultists

Depends on their deployment and how you intend to cover the Exalted after so he doesn't get sniped out by a flyer or someone drops on him. Termie sorc is handy for that precise mobility and the extra two spell slots since you can see it gets hard to adjust your spell list outside the "needs". I'm not saying you should take one and I think the predator may end up being more helpful if they've got tanks.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Always Gaze and Diabolic on DP.

Temporal on a couple Rubrics to heal gribblies and have redundancy. Boon on the third to try buffing seers bane sorc.

Termi Sorc takes Prescience to free up Ahriman's smite. Death Hex will be a crucial selection when facing daemons or custodes. Otherwise get Weaver on him to support tzaangors.

If you're keeping Ahriman up front - Gift is great when facing T3 armies. Otherwise Firestorm, Warptime, Prescience.

Seers bane Sorc can support big stuff with Glamour and heal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Third eye is mathematically great, but has barely broken even for me some game. Still worth it though.

DMC is good in this list for last minute caps since you lack large units. Webway won't be too good on offense with such small squads as well.

Seers bane is fun. Probably not super optimal unless you plan to use Diabolic on him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and Doombolt is great when facing morty or some fast deathstar. Put it on Ahriman or termie sorc for best odds.

Doesn't the Disc of Tzeentch make the Exalted Sorcerer an invalid target for Boon as he gains the Daemon keyword while on a disc?

 The Sentinel wrote:
Doesn't the Disc of Tzeentch make the Exalted Sorcerer an invalid target for Boon as he gains the Daemon keyword while on a disc?

Mm, yea, forgot about that. Thanks for the correction.

 The Sentinel wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Always Gaze and Diabolic on DP.

Temporal on a couple Rubrics to heal gribblies and have redundancy. Boon on the third to try buffing seers bane sorc.

Termi Sorc takes Prescience to free up Ahriman's smite. Death Hex will be a crucial selection when facing daemons or custodes. Otherwise get Weaver on him to support tzaangors.

If you're keeping Ahriman up front - Gift is great when facing T3 armies. Otherwise Firestorm, Warptime, Prescience.

Seers bane Sorc can support big stuff with Glamour and heal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Third eye is mathematically great, but has barely broken even for me some game. Still worth it though.

DMC is good in this list for last minute caps since you lack large units. Webway won't be too good on offense with such small squads as well.

Seers bane is fun. Probably not super optimal unless you plan to use Diabolic on him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and Doombolt is great when facing morty or some fast deathstar. Put it on Ahriman or termie sorc for best odds.

Doesn't the Disc of Tzeentch make the Exalted Sorcerer an invalid target for Boon as he gains the Daemon keyword while on a disc?

And that is why it is a horrible spell. It can only effect non disc HQ's which kinda limits how effective it is. Combine that with a possible peril and a possible Spawn result and it equals not worth using, for me anyhow. Perhaps more adventurous souls will be more willing to roll the dice. It really should have effected everyone but demon princes and magnus. Being able to cast it on Exalted on a disc would have gone a long way to patch the internal balance issues between the prince and exalted.

Table wrote:

 The Sentinel wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Always Gaze and Diabolic on DP.

Temporal on a couple Rubrics to heal gribblies and have redundancy. Boon on the third to try buffing seers bane sorc.

Termi Sorc takes Prescience to free up Ahriman's smite. Death Hex will be a crucial selection when facing daemons or custodes. Otherwise get Weaver on him to support tzaangors.

If you're keeping Ahriman up front - Gift is great when facing T3 armies. Otherwise Firestorm, Warptime, Prescience.

Seers bane Sorc can support big stuff with Glamour and heal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Third eye is mathematically great, but has barely broken even for me some game. Still worth it though.

DMC is good in this list for last minute caps since you lack large units. Webway won't be too good on offense with such small squads as well.

Seers bane is fun. Probably not super optimal unless you plan to use Diabolic on him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and Doombolt is great when facing morty or some fast deathstar. Put it on Ahriman or termie sorc for best odds.

Doesn't the Disc of Tzeentch make the Exalted Sorcerer an invalid target for Boon as he gains the Daemon keyword while on a disc?

And that is why it is a horrible spell. It can only effect non disc HQ's which kinda limits how effective it is. Combine that with a possible peril and a possible Spawn result and it equals not worth using, for me anyhow. Perhaps more adventurous souls will be more willing to roll the dice. It really should have effected everyone but demon princes and magnus. Being able to cast it on Exalted on a disc would have gone a long way to patch the internal balance issues between the prince and exalted.

I take it pretty much every time I run the terminator sorceror, but that's it. You have something like 40% odds (assuming you select it if you roll a 7) of getting permanent +1 to cast on the guy that's trying to throw out what's arguably your most important to not-fail spell, warptime. Sure, you have a 2.7% chance of getting a Spawn (0.4% if you use a re-roll) but you also have an equivalent chance of morphing your sorc into a 180 point daemon prince sitting 9" away from the enemy lines.

Every game I've played with the new termie sorc rules so far, he's ended up at +2 to cast/+1 to cast on his spells by the end of the game.

I'd probably also run it if I was running a gunline setup with a foot exalt babysitter.

Not getting to cast it on disc sorcs is a bummer, but generally their Daemon keyword provides me more benefits than hindrances. Lets them benefit from Locus of Trickery, herald strength buff, changeling aura, Locus of Conjuration to give everyone free rerolls (they dont generate the auras themselves but if they're in range they benefit). Lots of soup synergy.

Ice_can wrote:
You mean codex zangors, I do feel for thousand sons players who basically got told to replace their thousand sons, with an AOS army.

This. Sad that the best choices in a TS army are not actually TS :-(.

Went 4-1 at a recent big event, losing to the eventual winner with Poxwalkers. Had a good time with my tzaangor horde and it did really well. Heres some pics of my games.













The army wasnt painted fully and had a few stand ins (kroot on discs!) as I hadn't finished painting/building it all but will have it finished for the next big event!

If anyones interested I could write some reports.

Definitely codex tzaangor!

Jpr wrote:


Definitely codex tzaangor!

By your choice.

Are you in the US Northeast? I'd love to test my list against yours.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Jpr wrote:


Definitely codex tzaangor!

By your choice.

Are you in the US Northeast? I'd love to test my list against yours.

UK unfortunately! It’s certainly not unbeatable but I enjoy that it plays all the phases well.

@jpr, we would love a summary, great and bad moments, mvps, ineffective units etc...

I got my first game with the new dex in last Monday against Elder. We played about 100 PL, the Mission was annihilation I think, victory conditions being whoever has the most models at end of round 5.

He has a big advantage on models.

Warlord termie death hexed his war walkers that showed up in my backfield along with his rangers,.scorpiams with Khamdras, and swooping hawks with Autarch..

I deep strike my termies and termie sorcerer in my own dz turn 1 to deal with them. He hoped to close on my from front and back but ended up dividing his army in half. After cleaning up my DZ I move to meet him as I have to have more models than my opponent by turn 5.

My tzangoors that deployed from the webway die but tie up his army midfield.

I Dark Matter crystal my termies behind his squad of reapers who deal with them and then his army from behind.

Our armies meet in the middle and end turn 5, 1k sons have 11 models and elder 10.

I had,
DP w wings
terminator sorcerer warlord
exalted sorcerer
2 10 man Rubrics with SRC
5 sots with SRC and hfm
20 Txangoors
1 disco pred
1 helbrutes with twin Las and just
3 chaos spawn
vindicator

he had
farseer and Warwick enclave
Autarch (w swooping hawks)
10 defenders w ml
3 10 man dire avenger
10 man swooping hawk
10 man ranger
3 war walkers
night spinner
3 man d weapon battery
10 striking scorpions
Khamdras Phoenix lord.
feel like I might be missing something

another cool.moment was casting diabolical str on a single chaos spawn left who charged a squad of S.A..

I only had one peril causing 2 wounds on my termie.

I had 6 CPs to his 7 but got 1 due to helm. this happened right before my termies were charged by Khandras. I spent both to attach before him in the assault taking him out.

lots of casting and lots of denials. It was a really fun game.

Jpr wrote:
Went 4-1 at a recent big event, losing to the eventual winner with Poxwalkers. Had a good time with my tzaangor horde and it did really well. Heres some pics of my games.

The army wasnt painted fully and had a few stand ins (kroot on discs!) as I hadn't finished painting/building it all but will have it finished for the next big event!

If anyones interested I could write some reports.

Definitely codex tzaangor!

Very interested in what list you ran, reps would be great! I don't play 1k sons, but enjoy reading on them and what works

 Zid wrote:

Jpr wrote:
Went 4-1 at a recent big event, losing to the eventual winner with Poxwalkers. Had a good time with my tzaangor horde and it did really well. Heres some pics of my games.

The army wasnt painted fully and had a few stand ins (kroot on discs!) as I hadn't finished painting/building it all but will have it finished for the next big event!

If anyones interested I could write some reports.

Definitely codex tzaangor!

Very interested in what list you ran, reps would be great! I don't play 1k sons, but enjoy reading on them and what works

Ahriman
3x9 enlightened

DP wings talon
Shaman
30 tzaangor horn
6x9 enlightened

Limited myself to pure TS will write a few reports later.

So the top table was an Age of Sigmar battle?

LOL