I see that you will be able to take mixed Primaris squads now that seems interesting. I am wondering they will get any juicy strats that do a real number on xenos to re-balance the meta.
It won't. Kill Teams are already expensive, the Codex isn't going to change that. Compared to a Tau or Eldar force, they will have half the firepower for twice the cost.
Primaris Marines will likely be more points-efficient, which will be disappointing to long-time players with existing armies. People won't want to use the Primaris because they lack the ability to use transports like the Corvus, Rhinos, Razorbacks, etc.
they'll be a slightly more powergameable version of the "babys first" space marines, who are at this point the most optimal units marines have, so they'll be the best marine dex and people who want to play power armor will play them until power armor gets the game-wide boost it needs.
That one guy will make a topic called "Are Deathwatch top tier" because he's just getting back into the game and wants a competitive army and no one will know how to answer because no one cares about Deathwatch
techsoldaten wrote: It won't. Kill Teams are already expensive, the Codex isn't going to change that. Compared to a Tau or Eldar force, they will have half the firepower for twice the cost.
Primaris Marines will likely be more points-efficient, which will be disappointing to long-time players with existing armies. People won't want to use the Primaris because they lack the ability to use transports like the Corvus, Rhinos, Razorbacks, etc.
We can already expect a Deep Strike strategem though (seeing as they did have a formation doing that in the past), so that's going to help considerably.
techsoldaten wrote: It won't. Kill Teams are already expensive, the Codex isn't going to change that. Compared to a Tau or Eldar force, they will have half the firepower for twice the cost.
Primaris Marines will likely be more points-efficient, which will be disappointing to long-time players with existing armies. People won't want to use the Primaris because they lack the ability to use transports like the Corvus, Rhinos, Razorbacks, etc.
We can already expect a Deep Strike strategem though (seeing as they did have a formation doing that in the past), so that's going to help considerably.
Deep Striking/Tporting has been a thing for GK since they were first brought into the game. They got no love in that area.
lolman1c wrote: Since the start of 8th I say abbunch of deathwatch on youtube bat reps and then slowly they started to disappear. Now I haven't seen them in months.
Death watcher were good at win 1000 point games anything past that horrible.
What's sad is the futher division between primaris and normal marines. The community (or what I have seen) clearly don't want tacts to go but GW keeps pushing them away. It would have been nice to have primaris work with tact marines in 1 squad (working together couod be a really cool fluffy way to kinda subliminally show the old marines accepting the new guys). But then I geuss it would highlight how useless terminators would be...
also how the hell did the new guys even get into the deathwatch and in such large numbers? Arn't they supposed to be super elite mega super best of the best soldiers who have proven themselves over hundreds of years?
lolman1c wrote: Since the start of 8th I say abbunch of deathwatch on youtube bat reps and then slowly they started to disappear. Now I haven't seen them in months.
They were fine early on as part of a heavy mix of Imperial soup. As soon as Stategems created a need for CP, they simultaneously fell behind in power by not having good things to spend CP on and lost value as an ally by being an inefficient CP generator. They fell further behind when Space Marines got Storm Shields and Fists got a points drop. After the Primaris points adjustment made the big boys both better and cheaper there was a need to start putting them in Deathwatch armies, but if you're going to start Primaris from scratch, why not make them a chapter they actually do something in? Chapter Approved helped by catching them up with the SMC but the strategems basically did nothing. It's just kind of been a constant slide to the bottom of the pile, really only cushion by our anti-daemon brethren sitting below us, getting kicked twice as hard.
With special issue intercessors and mixed squads of primaris I think we will see this become the standard for primaris armies. Primaris as a whole are very weak to meta dominating things like hordes and plasma, but with the right addition of being able to screen valuable models like hellblasters amongst intercessors who themselves will be lethal with SIA I think we will see at least some semi-competitive builds.
Also I feel we will be getting some actually useful stratagems as opposed to Codex marines. Primaris will still lack anti-armor, but that is nothing a little soup can't fix.
100 pts the way 8th ed is going. Currently costed marines have zero hope vs Drukhari. None. I'm not even sure they are worth 100, because the kabalites killing me from their vehicle are less than that blinged out, but I'll go 100. 130 is insanity at this juncture.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: With special issue intercessors and mixed squads of primaris I think we will see this become the standard for primaris armies. Primaris as a whole are very weak to meta dominating things like hordes and plasma, but with the right addition of being able to screen valuable models like hellblasters amongst intercessors who themselves will be lethal with SIA I think we will see at least some semi-competitive builds.
Also I feel we will be getting some actually useful stratagems as opposed to Codex marines. Primaris will still lack anti-armor, but that is nothing a little soup can't fix.
You didn't notice that hellblasters were the only unit not listed in that article as being able to be taken in the mixed squad?
If I can mix intercessors with other primaris units just for the wounds I'm in. Although isn't there some rule about wounds need to be applied to the highest toughness models first? Some FAQ about might of heroes or something?
If not, 2-3 inceptors with 3-4 interceptors might be able to survive the first round in cover, with some sort of -1 to hit with at least a couple plasma guns left...
Either that or some sort of supreme command/patrol/cheap detachment to unlock their strats which will have to be better than the current SM ones (even if they suck I don't see how they could be worse than what I'm currently working with...)
Best part is I wouldn't have to repaint anything!!!
Tibs Ironblood wrote: With special issue intercessors and mixed squads of primaris I think we will see this become the standard for primaris armies. Primaris as a whole are very weak to meta dominating things like hordes and plasma, but with the right addition of being able to screen valuable models like hellblasters amongst intercessors who themselves will be lethal with SIA I think we will see at least some semi-competitive builds.
Also I feel we will be getting some actually useful stratagems as opposed to Codex marines. Primaris will still lack anti-armor, but that is nothing a little soup can't fix.
You didn't notice that hellblasters were the only unit not listed in that article as being able to be taken in the mixed squad?
I noticed that, but have hung on to hope that was an accidental omission because I don't see why they would arbitrarily limit hellblasters from sharing a squad. I totally admit though that it was probably by design to leave them out and I'm giving in to hope which of course, as we all know, is the first step on the road to disappointment.
techsoldaten wrote: It won't. Kill Teams are already expensive, the Codex isn't going to change that. Compared to a Tau or Eldar force, they will have half the firepower for twice the cost.
Primaris Marines will likely be more points-efficient, which will be disappointing to long-time players with existing armies. People won't want to use the Primaris because they lack the ability to use transports like the Corvus, Rhinos, Razorbacks, etc.
We can already expect a Deep Strike strategem though (seeing as they did have a formation doing that in the past), so that's going to help considerably.
Deep Striking/Tporting has been a thing for GK since they were first brought into the game. They got no love in that area.
Pretty much all of their units can already deepstrike, they have gate of infinity, and a stratagem to shunt inceptors a second time so I have not idea how GK got no deepstrike love.
That said the competitiveness of death watch is dependent on 2 things, point costing and stratagems.
Martel732 wrote: 100 pts the way 8th ed is going. Currently costed marines have zero hope vs Drukhari. None. I'm not even sure they are worth 100, because the kabalites killing me from their vehicle are less than that blinged out, but I'll go 100. 130 is insanity at this juncture.
I was referring to turn 1 deep striking. GK didn't get an exception to the general rule even though deep striking is their main way of arriving on the scene fluffwise.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: With special issue intercessors and mixed squads of primaris I think we will see this become the standard for primaris armies. Primaris as a whole are very weak to meta dominating things like hordes and plasma, but with the right addition of being able to screen valuable models like hellblasters amongst intercessors who themselves will be lethal with SIA I think we will see at least some semi-competitive builds.
Also I feel we will be getting some actually useful stratagems as opposed to Codex marines. Primaris will still lack anti-armor, but that is nothing a little soup can't fix.
Depends on defensive buffs, and delivery methods. If you need to walk your primaris across the field and they get no buff and increase cost I’m not sure they will beat out DA, BA, or Ravenguard.
Now ignore won’t happen but it would be cool if mixing chapters was a thing in squads and allowed you to use chapter specific stratagems. That would make the. Quite intriguing.
Martel732 wrote: 100 pts the way 8th ed is going. Currently costed marines have zero hope vs Drukhari. None. I'm not even sure they are worth 100, because the kabalites killing me from their vehicle are less than that blinged out, but I'll go 100. 130 is insanity at this juncture.
Mmmm10 pts a model I can agree with this.
They'll still be bad, but I can throw more of them into the guns and maybe my enemy will trip on their blood.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I was referring to turn 1 deep striking. GK didn't get an exception to the general rule even though deep striking is their main way of arriving on the scene fluffwise.
Yeah but a deepstrike strat doesn’t give turn 1 deepstrike just the ability to deepstrike, which GK can still do. They can also use shunt or gate turn 1. So they are better off in that area than most other armies at this point. You just cannot start with those turn 1 things off the table.
Arachnofiend wrote: GW did a pretty solid job fixing the second worst index in the game, so I'm gonna give them the benefit of the doubt on the worst.
That's a good point. I'm hoping it'll give a sneak peek until how the next CA might handle marines. There aren't many DeathWatch players, but being at the tail end of the codex sprawl may play in their favor.
Really hoping they have real crazy stratagems. We need more crazy stratagems. Declaring every tyranid a fallen is getting old.
Actually, special issue ammo for intercessors would make them actually function at their current price point. It's not broken at all, since they are slinging 10 shots maximum. Right now, their big failing is their non-existent offense.
lolman1c wrote: Since the start of 8th I say abbunch of deathwatch on youtube bat reps and then slowly they started to disappear. Now I haven't seen them in months.
If it really bothers you then just run scouts. You never see anyone complaining about how terribad are Rubric Marines.
Nah people do complain about them. They are probably the best unit in power armor right now though. Compared to 3 kabalites the thing is an absolute joke.
Beyond the fact that they are overcosted - they even have function ability problems such as...have to take a 10 man squad to get a heavy weapon...for this price you can take a battalion worth of troops in ether AM/DE/TAU. AN ABOLSUTE JOKE. Plus using a spell with the sorcerer (WHO DOESN'T EVEN HAVE A WARP BOLTER) you risk killing your own guys if you perils.
I am not sure about this endless point reducing of troops - although in a world of 4 point guardsmen and 6 point kabalites a Marine is never worth 13 points. His defensive stats are okay, but his damage output is comparably rubbish.
Bolt guns (of all types) need to be upgraded to Storm Bolter stats with no points increase. Then re-balance points as necessary from there.
Storm bolters could become rapid fire 3, maybe a slight points increase if it mattered.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Rubrics have a lot of great rules. They just need an appropriate price cut. Maybe 16 a model?
I also have issues with all Chaos Marines not having the current Vet stats, so am extra attack is all good with me.
kSons are still competitive. Like who is going to bring Mandrakes when trying to build a strong DE list? Every codex has some under-performing units.
Mandrakes aren't bad. Infiltrate -1 to hit 5++/6+++save and assault 2 bolters that deal mortals on 6's. They aren't great but they are decent for their cost. Incubi also - not great but decent for their cost.
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Primark G wrote: So... there are much better units if we are actually discussing competitive builds.
I think you are missing the point - everyones base troop should be competitive - because you are forced to use them. For marines it's the worst because the overcosted troop is also in every other slot starting with the same BS price. Don't say anything about scouts - scouts aren't good ether.
Why don't we wait until the codex is released and we've had a bit of time to at least allow the rules to permeate the neurons in our brain sacks before making snap judgments that are likely wrong?
Just a thought.
We don't even know what the meta looks like right now with the FAQ changes. This is so premature it's like putting a condom on before you've asked the girl out.
If it really bothers you then just run scouts. You never see anyone complaining about how terribad are Rubric Marines.
That's because rubrics are not terrible they have pretty good guns and are extremely hard to kill with small arms with good support built into the unit with stuff like glamour of tzeentch,
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Rubrics have a lot of great rules. They just need an appropriate price cut. Maybe 16 a model?
I also have issues with all Chaos Marines not having the current Vet stats, so am extra attack is all good with me.
kSons are still competitive. Like who is going to bring Mandrakes when trying to build a strong DE list? Every codex has some under-performing units.
Mandrakes aren't bad. Infiltrate -1 to hit 5++/6+++save and assault 2 bolters that deal mortals on 6's. They aren't great but they are decent for their cost. Incubi also - not great but decent for their cost.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Primark G wrote: So... there are much better units if we are actually discussing competitive builds.
I think you are missing the point - everyones base troop should be competitive - because you are forced to use them. For marines it's the worst because the overcosted troop is also in every other slot starting with the same BS price. Don't say anything about scouts - scouts aren't good ether.
You thinking scouts are bad reveals a lot about your understanding of competitive games. Scouts are great and every army other than Daemons would run them if they had the option. Their deployment option is very strong.
Almost every army has a scout option - infiltrate is a powerful mechanic. Scouts are one of the weakest version of it.
Scouts are taken in competitive not because they are good - but because a troop choice must be taken and scouts suck slightly less than tactical marines.
Are you trying to tell me that space marine players wouldn't prefer to take rangers? Or Commandoes? Or Stealth Teams? Or Mandrakes? Or kroot?
Scouts have got to be the worst outside of deployment zone option in the entire game. Can you name me one that is worse? (assuming you agree that all of the above units are better than scouts)
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An Actual Englishman wrote: Why don't we wait until the codex is released and we've had a bit of time to at least allow the rules to permeate the neurons in our brain sacks before making snap judgments that are likely wrong?
Just a thought.
We don't even know what the meta looks like right now with the FAQ changes. This is so premature it's like putting a condom on before you've asked the girl out.
At this point nothing will make me happy. If deathwatch is actually good it will just make me angry my marines suck so bad (just like dark angels did for me). If they are bad - it's just another worthless codex that could have been rolled up into codex adept Astarte's with a few paragraphs in a chapter tactic entry.
Well apparently Intercessors from the Deathwatch will have access to special ammo of some kind. That's gonna be pretty awesome even if they go back to their old price.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well apparently Intercessors from the Deathwatch will have access to special ammo of some kind. That's gonna be pretty awesome even if they go back to their old price.
Well if that's the case I know what color I'm painting my unpainted intercessors
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well apparently Intercessors from the Deathwatch will have access to special ammo of some kind. That's gonna be pretty awesome even if they go back to their old price.
Well if that's the case I know what color I'm painting my unpainted intercessors
Pink with Green polkadots because paint has no bearing on rules. If you want to run your Blue Intercessors with the Deathwatch rules, go for it.
The Deathwatch Codex needs a massive board-wide points drop in order to shake up the meta at all.
Every Codex that comes out, Marines are just not in a great spot. Easy access to massed high ap firepower means that super awesome power armor of 3+ gets reduced to a 5+ or 6+ really fast. Even 2+ armor is meh thanks to that. :/
drbored wrote: The Deathwatch Codex needs a massive board-wide points drop in order to shake up the meta at all.
Every Codex that comes out, Marines are just not in a great spot. Easy access to massed high ap firepower means that super awesome power armor of 3+ gets reduced to a 5+ or 6+ really fast. Even 2+ armor is meh thanks to that. :/
Omg...
It's like the 90s all over again. It's the kinda nostalgia that makes you want to rage punt a puppy in to traffic
So a big fat nope.....and over to 30k. What? Did you think I'd quit cold turkey? I don't have a problem. I could quit if I wanted to, I just don't want to.
Deathwatch are pretty much the epitome of having undesirable characteristics.
You're the same resiliency of a regular marine, but even more per model, and therefore even more painful when someone dies. My Deathwatch guys are just there for fun and for playing the Deathwatch RPG.
Having super-special awesome guys just isn't a good plan. I don't think their codex will change this.
I guess you could stack up for a nasty T2 deep strike.
bullyboy wrote: It's amazing, you can be really excited or the release of a new codex.....and then you sign on to dakka.
Deathwatch will be unique and probably the best way to run Primaris. Doubt that will change much overall, however.
Still excited and optimistic for this Codex. I'm just worried based on the German leak that the 'increased availability of SIA' will only apply to Intercessors and that mission tactics are the sole replacement for a chapter tactic. Mostly hoping for a points decrease to basic vets, SIA Storm Bolters, some good stratagems, and the ability for the Corvus to carry Primaris (it can carry bikes inside it FFS). Even if the Codex isn't top tier, I love the army and will continue to play the hell out of it. It's way more interesting to play than my Guard army even if my win rate is something absurdly bad like 20%.
Primark G wrote: I see that you will be able to take mixed Primaris squads now that seems interesting. I am wondering they will get any juicy strats that do a real number on xenos to re-balance the meta.
How many people own a deathwatch army? How many are going to start a new if the codex turns out very good? If you figure those questions out you'll have the answer to the original question.
My guess is the deathwatch codex will have a very tiny impact on the current meta since basically no one plays that faction. Maybe it will have an impact on bigger events, but regular metas are not going to be significantly affected by the deathwatch codex.
Blackie wrote: My guess is the deathwatch codex will have a very tiny impact on the current meta since basically no one plays that faction. Maybe it will have an impact on bigger events, but regular metas are not going to be significantly affected by the deathwatch codex.
I have got an army of them? I feel so diminished and forgotten :( *sob*.
Xenomancers wrote: Almost every army has a scout option - infiltrate is a powerful mechanic. Scouts are one of the weakest version of it.
Scouts are taken in competitive not because they are good - but because a troop choice must be taken and scouts suck slightly less than tactical marines.
Are you trying to tell me that space marine players wouldn't prefer to take rangers? Or Commandoes? Or Stealth Teams? Or Mandrakes? Or kroot?
Scouts have got to be the worst outside of deployment zone option in the entire game. Can you name me one that is worse? (assuming you agree that all of the above units are better than scouts)
Then why do they get taken in lists that take IGCP farms? Certainly those armies would be better served with taking no troops in the marine portion of their lists. Why not just bring scout sentinels, or Ratlings? Those are cheaper and you already have a ton of CP available. Scouts are one of the 3 most powerful infiltrate units. not the weakest version. You have it backwards.
Kommandos don't inflitrate at all they deepstrike. Orks have no infiltrate option at the moment. With the beta rules there is little reason to take kommandos at all. But I would take scouts as orks, because they would give me a place to drop my Da Jump unit,
Rangers - Deploy after scouts deploy So if I place my scouts well guess what you don't do with your rangers. Inflitrate them at all, they end up in your deployment zone, or you infiltrate them in some crappy position that does not screen at all. If Reaper spam players could have scouts they would take them either over or in addition to rangers. Rangers are more resilient to shooting assuming they are in terrain, but that is limiting when trying to screen out, and again, you don't get to screen out at all against scouts.
Kroot - Don't infiltrate they scout move before the games begins. Get what they don't get to do against scouts. Scout move. Scouts get put 9" away from the Tau deployment zone and now the kroot cannot move at all because they need to end 9" away from the scouts. Tau would take scouts over Kroot or in addition to kroot if they could.
Stealth suits - infiltrate like scouts, but worse because they must be 12" away from the enemy deployment or enemy models. So this comes down to who gets the first drop, but they are also considerably more expensive than scouts. They are better offensively. A little worse at board control during deployment. This unit is in the coversation about being better than scouts because of when they infiltrate. Not being troops hurts them a bit though because that means if you are taking troops it is an extra cost.
Mandrakes - deepstrike don't infiltrate, so are worse than scouts at infiltrate deployment.
Needless to say I don't agree that these units are all better than scouts for the purpose of board control and forward deployment, in fact only stealth teams are in the discussion. In other roles sure. IF I want snipers, I'd take rangers over sniper scouts. OR if I want a unit to camp an objective in cover.
In fact if I were playing gunline guard I would always have some space marine element specifically for the purpose of scouts as they give me a decent chance of not getting screwed facing something like Alpha legion that goes first (though that player should bring nurglings, so it is a dice off for positioning) I bring space marine with my sisters largely for the purpose of having scouts because they ensure my dominions have a place to scout forward into. They are auto include for Ravenguard, I could infiltrate Intercessors instead, or tacticals, but scouts make sure I have a place to infiltrate.
The Units in discussion for best infiltrating unit are Scouts, Nurglings, and Stealth Suits, because they deploy during deployment. This is slightly less important with the beta rules on deepstrike, but against armies they have their own "infiltrate" units that deploy after deployment scouts stop those units in their tracks. Scout sentinels? sorry don't get to move, Sisters Dominions, sorry don't get to move, Death Company with Forlorn Fury, nope, Alpha legion/Raven Guard, have fun in your deployment zone
So again this suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of how the game functions, and speaks to why you think the game is a huge RNG dice fest where gunline guard auto wins.
As to death guard, it all depends on what they bring to an Imperium allied army. They won't do anything as a standalone force, but if they have a powerful unit or 2 and good strats, they might see play allied to guard, or other marines.
Primark G wrote: I see that you will be able to take mixed Primaris squads now that seems interesting. I am wondering they will get any juicy strats that do a real number on xenos to re-balance the meta.
How many people own a deathwatch army? How many are going to start a new if the codex turns out very good? If you figure those questions out you'll have the answer to the original question.
My guess is the deathwatch codex will have a very tiny impact on the current meta since basically no one plays that faction. Maybe it will have an impact on bigger events, but regular metas are not going to be significantly affected by the deathwatch codex.
There are a lot of Space Marine armies that could be reshuffled into Death Watch with a few weapon swaps. Primaris Marines wouldn't even need that. If the Death Watch Codex is great, I'd expect to see a whole bunch of all-Raven Guard Kill Teams popping up. However, I'm unconvinced that expensive T4 W1-2 Sv3+ models are going shake things up anyway.
Stealth suits - infiltrate like scouts, but worse because they must be 12" away from the enemy deployment or enemy models. So this comes down to who gets the first drop, but they are also considerably more expensive than scouts. They are better offensively. A little worse at board control during deployment. This unit is in the coversation about being better than scouts because of when they infiltrate. Not being troops hurts them a bit though because that means if you are taking troops it is an extra cost.
Not got the codex to hand, but, I thought that Stealth Suits and Ghostkeels infiltrated slightly differently.
They have to be setup 12” away from an enemy unit, BUT can be setup anywhere outside of the enemy deployment zone.
So, in a sense, if you manage to get the first drop, a unit of 6 stealth suits can setup 6” away from the enemy’s deployment zone and deny most of the central table area to other infiltrators, such as scouts.
However, a unit of 6 stealth suits is considerable more expensive than a unit of scouts, so the trade-off is models on the table.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Will be interesting to see how the kill teams are going to work Primaris wise. They certainly do add extra interest into the range, but how effective they will be, remains to be seen.
yup there is a slight difference in how they deploy , so you can deny a large area if you go first. But yeah 6 stealth suits is 168 points. 10 Scouts is 110 points, and can do similar if going first and deploying 9" away from the enemy deployment zone. That is why deployment timing infiltrators are so powerful.
Breng77 wrote: yup there is a slight difference in how they deploy , so you can deny a large area if you go first. But yeah 6 stealth suits is 168 points. 10 Scouts is 110 points, and can do similar if going first and deploying 9" away from the enemy deployment zone. That is why deployment timing infiltrators are so powerful.
And boy oh boy is it ever why I'm excited for Wych Cults to smack into that meta.
Alpha strikers with massive move and Fly backed up by infantry troops that stop Fall Back 80% of the time even if you're a stealth suit with Fly....oh my yes
Stealth suits - infiltrate like scouts, but worse because they must be 12" away from the enemy deployment or enemy models. So this comes down to who gets the first drop, but they are also considerably more expensive than scouts. They are better offensively. A little worse at board control during deployment. This unit is in the coversation about being better than scouts because of when they infiltrate. Not being troops hurts them a bit though because that means if you are taking troops it is an extra cost.
Not got the codex to hand, but, I thought that Stealth Suits and Ghostkeels infiltrated slightly differently.
They have to be setup 12” away from an enemy unit, BUT can be setup anywhere outside of the enemy deployment zone.
So, in a sense, if you manage to get the first drop, a unit of 6 stealth suits can setup 6” away from the enemy’s deployment zone and deny most of the central table area to other infiltrators, such as scouts.
However, a unit of 6 stealth suits is considerable more expensive than a unit of scouts, so the trade-off is models on the table.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Will be interesting to see how the kill teams are going to work Primaris wise. They certainly do add extra interest into the range, but how effective they will be, remains to be seen.
Stealth suits compare favorably with scouts in both resilience and damage and mobility. The point I'm making is scouts are not good compared to other infiltrators. Practically any infiltrator data slate would be taken in favor of scouts.
Breng77 wrote: yup there is a slight difference in how they deploy , so you can deny a large area if you go first. But yeah 6 stealth suits is 168 points. 10 Scouts is 110 points, and can do similar if going first and deploying 9" away from the enemy deployment zone. That is why deployment timing infiltrators are so powerful.
And boy oh boy is it ever why I'm excited for Wych Cults to smack into that meta.
Alpha strikers with massive move and Fly backed up by infantry troops that stop Fall Back 80% of the time even if you're a stealth suit with Fly....oh my yes
Stealth suits - infiltrate like scouts, but worse because they must be 12" away from the enemy deployment or enemy models. So this comes down to who gets the first drop, but they are also considerably more expensive than scouts. They are better offensively. A little worse at board control during deployment. This unit is in the coversation about being better than scouts because of when they infiltrate. Not being troops hurts them a bit though because that means if you are taking troops it is an extra cost.
Not got the codex to hand, but, I thought that Stealth Suits and Ghostkeels infiltrated slightly differently.
They have to be setup 12” away from an enemy unit, BUT can be setup anywhere outside of the enemy deployment zone.
So, in a sense, if you manage to get the first drop, a unit of 6 stealth suits can setup 6” away from the enemy’s deployment zone and deny most of the central table area to other infiltrators, such as scouts.
However, a unit of 6 stealth suits is considerable more expensive than a unit of scouts, so the trade-off is models on the table.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Will be interesting to see how the kill teams are going to work Primaris wise. They certainly do add extra interest into the range, but how effective they will be, remains to be seen.
Stealth suits compare favorably with scouts in both resilience and damage and mobility. The point I'm making is scouts are not good compared to other infiltrators. Practically any infiltrator data slate would be taken in favor of scouts.
I was just correcting the mistake with the Stealth Suits comment – but I agree, Stealth Suits are generally better than Scouts.
But again, in that instance you have to view it in a T’au vs Marine battle. If T’au get the first drop, the Scouts are screwed, but, if the Marines get the first drop, then likewise, the Stealth Suits are pretty screwed when it comes to using their deployment. After that point, it is generally negligible because their main benefits right now is to control deployment and table areas turn 1.
In that regard, Stealth Suits are better versions of Scouts because they have more staying power, so, they are more likely to still be holding table areas at the start of turn 2, compared to Scouts BUT I’d argue that by that point other aspects of your army would have increased your footprint to deny deep strike options. So again, it comes back to controlling deployment.
The only other unit that can do that in the game right now is Nurglings. Everything else deploys after deployment has finished, or deep strikes. Eldar Rangers can secure ground, but, if they are against Scouts, they can get controlled.
If we are looking at things overall, with the idea that they aren’t facing each other, then yes, I’d argue that Scouts are one of the weakest units that can control the table. BUT, in this instance, I’d argue that table control isn’t that important due to the new beta rules. If I’m playing someone that has deep strike but no deployment options, I’m just going to place my scouts on objectives or out of LoS initially, and then move them around after to deny areas on turn 2. At that point, they become useful for securing certain areas, but not totally needed as other aspects of your list can start to move into areas at that point.
I take Scouts for 1 main reason, and 2 side reasons.
The main reason is to ensure, during deployment, I can use Strike from the Shadows and get my units into the places I want them.
The 2 side reasons are – they can eat overwatch or I can use them as initial objective holders in a maelstrom game.
They are going to die. I accept that. But their entire use for me, and others, is that deployment control.
However, that's a whole discussion for another time and place!
Breng77 wrote: yup there is a slight difference in how they deploy , so you can deny a large area if you go first. But yeah 6 stealth suits is 168 points. 10 Scouts is 110 points, and can do similar if going first and deploying 9" away from the enemy deployment zone. That is why deployment timing infiltrators are so powerful.
And boy oh boy is it ever why I'm excited for Wych Cults to smack into that meta.
Alpha strikers with massive move and Fly backed up by infantry troops that stop Fall Back 80% of the time even if you're a stealth suit with Fly....oh my yes
The thing is, if I’m using T’au or Marines vs Dark Eldar, I know that you won’t have any deployment control. Because of that, I can easily just setup the Scouts somewhere else on the table. Likewise with the Stealth Suits.
Wytch Cults flying across the table can then either fly past the scouts just outside your deployement zone, or fly across the table and be faced with a Scout screen line just outside my deployment zone. It’s different with Stealth Suits, as I’d just leave them in my deployment behind a kroot screening line far enough away so you can’t charge them, then move forward afterwards.
Just because a unit can infiltrate doesn’t mean it needs to all the time. In games where the only deep strike threat comes from turn 2 or 3, their deployment options aren’t really needed.
Stealth suits - infiltrate like scouts, but worse because they must be 12" away from the enemy deployment or enemy models. So this comes down to who gets the first drop, but they are also considerably more expensive than scouts. They are better offensively. A little worse at board control during deployment. This unit is in the coversation about being better than scouts because of when they infiltrate. Not being troops hurts them a bit though because that means if you are taking troops it is an extra cost.
Not got the codex to hand, but, I thought that Stealth Suits and Ghostkeels infiltrated slightly differently.
They have to be setup 12” away from an enemy unit, BUT can be setup anywhere outside of the enemy deployment zone.
So, in a sense, if you manage to get the first drop, a unit of 6 stealth suits can setup 6” away from the enemy’s deployment zone and deny most of the central table area to other infiltrators, such as scouts.
However, a unit of 6 stealth suits is considerable more expensive than a unit of scouts, so the trade-off is models on the table.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Will be interesting to see how the kill teams are going to work Primaris wise. They certainly do add extra interest into the range, but how effective they will be, remains to be seen.
Stealth suits compare favorably with scouts in both resilience and damage and mobility. The point I'm making is scouts are not good compared to other infiltrators. Practically any infiltrator data slate would be taken in favor of scouts.
Breng77 wrote: yup there is a slight difference in how they deploy , so you can deny a large area if you go first. But yeah 6 stealth suits is 168 points. 10 Scouts is 110 points, and can do similar if going first and deploying 9" away from the enemy deployment zone. That is why deployment timing infiltrators are so powerful.
And boy oh boy is it ever why I'm excited for Wych Cults to smack into that meta.
Alpha strikers with massive move and Fly backed up by infantry troops that stop Fall Back 80% of the time even if you're a stealth suit with Fly....oh my yes
Wyches seem overpriced at 8 points.
The point you're making is somewhat undermined by the fact that you don't seem to actually know what units actually are infiltrators, and which ones have basic deep strike. For someone who pretty much talks only about top-level play, you'd think you might know about the units that have it given that there's only really five, only four are seen (because scouts are superior to the other imperial soup option) and they're at this point in an absolute ton of competitive lists.
SS compare favorably in damage and mobility, but that means pretty much jackall for an infiltrator, which is primarily just there to absorb turn 1 damage, prevent movement especially from turn 1 chargers, and establish board control.
Stealth Suits cost 14 points per wound vs 11 points per wound, and that's pretty good for the extra durability. 21% more cost for 34% more durability. But there's less than half as many bodies on the table (making them worse at that "block movement" job that's half the reason you take them) and critically they're Elites rather than troops. a screening detachment of Scouts can be a Battalion, bringing 5CPs, while at best your stealth suits will contribute to bringing 1 to the table.
I give the edge solidly to the scouts here for actual utility to a list. Comparing the two units in a vacuum is the height of foolishness considering what you want them to do. Against Nurglings and Rangers, which also bring the Troops keyword and comparable cost, I would rate Nurglings as better if I could just transplant them into a different list, but Rangers better in the actual situation, where they come with Eldar HQs (vs Daemon HQs which are cheap and pure tax, and Marine HQs which can be good but are expensive, like BA Smashcaptains)
People will cry about it, either way. 40k players will piss and moan at the mere mention of 'Primaris'.
If they suck, they'll cry. If they're great, they'll cry.
40% of playing Warhammer 40k is whining about other peoples' armies online. Another 40% is whining about your own army. 10% is playing, painting, modeling, etc. And the final 10% is whining about Sisters of Battle and Squats.
So in summary - Stealth suits are better in every way than scouts...yet - it doesn't matter because "opinions". Being a troop is irrelevant. Tau have firewarriors which are amazing - they don't need their infiltrators to be troops because they have actual options when building a list. Or they can just take kroot - who have a scout move and accomplish the same thing as an infiltrating unit - which is to push back enemy deep strikes.
Stealth suits - infiltrate like scouts, but worse because they must be 12" away from the enemy deployment or enemy models. So this comes down to who gets the first drop, but they are also considerably more expensive than scouts. They are better offensively. A little worse at board control during deployment. This unit is in the coversation about being better than scouts because of when they infiltrate. Not being troops hurts them a bit though because that means if you are taking troops it is an extra cost.
Not got the codex to hand, but, I thought that Stealth Suits and Ghostkeels infiltrated slightly differently.
They have to be setup 12” away from an enemy unit, BUT can be setup anywhere outside of the enemy deployment zone.
So, in a sense, if you manage to get the first drop, a unit of 6 stealth suits can setup 6” away from the enemy’s deployment zone and deny most of the central table area to other infiltrators, such as scouts.
However, a unit of 6 stealth suits is considerable more expensive than a unit of scouts, so the trade-off is models on the table.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Will be interesting to see how the kill teams are going to work Primaris wise. They certainly do add extra interest into the range, but how effective they will be, remains to be seen.
Stealth suits compare favorably with scouts in both resilience and damage and mobility. The point I'm making is scouts are not good compared to other infiltrators. Practically any infiltrator data slate would be taken in favor of scouts
And what I’m saying is that outside of Stealth suits and maybe nurglings the answer is no they wouldn’t scouts are better that is how powerful deploying out of your zone during deployment is. As for scouts vs stealth suits. For durability I’m not certain it is a big difference depending on your chapter. For 2 wounds of scouts, you pay 6 points less than 2 wounds of stealth suits, and are better against multi-damage weapons. Now if the scouts are not raven guard -1 to hit helps the stealth teams. Stealth suits get the nod because their -1 to hit is better and they have a 3+ save but the difference is not huge. Offensively you are looking at 8 S 5 shots bs4+ for the cost of 10 bs 3+ S 4 shots. So that really depends on the target, but again nod to stealth suits. I never said scouts were the best just among them. Basically if you run an army that could bring scouts and you don’t you are hurting your chances of winning.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: People will cry about it, either way. 40k players will piss and moan at the mere mention of 'Primaris'.
If they suck, they'll cry. If they're great, they'll cry.
40% of playing Warhammer 40k is whining about other peoples' armies online. Another 40% is whining about your own army. 10% is playing, painting, modeling, etc. And the final 10% is whining about Sisters of Battle and Squats.
I don't think anyone would be crying if primaris marines were good. Except maybe people who like playing marines that are the size of guardsmen.
Stealth suits - infiltrate like scouts, but worse because they must be 12" away from the enemy deployment or enemy models. So this comes down to who gets the first drop, but they are also considerably more expensive than scouts. They are better offensively. A little worse at board control during deployment. This unit is in the coversation about being better than scouts because of when they infiltrate. Not being troops hurts them a bit though because that means if you are taking troops it is an extra cost.
Not got the codex to hand, but, I thought that Stealth Suits and Ghostkeels infiltrated slightly differently.
They have to be setup 12” away from an enemy unit, BUT can be setup anywhere outside of the enemy deployment zone.
So, in a sense, if you manage to get the first drop, a unit of 6 stealth suits can setup 6” away from the enemy’s deployment zone and deny most of the central table area to other infiltrators, such as scouts.
However, a unit of 6 stealth suits is considerable more expensive than a unit of scouts, so the trade-off is models on the table.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Will be interesting to see how the kill teams are going to work Primaris wise. They certainly do add extra interest into the range, but how effective they will be, remains to be seen.
Stealth suits compare favorably with scouts in both resilience and damage and mobility. The point I'm making is scouts are not good compared to other infiltrators. Practically any infiltrator data slate would be taken in favor of scouts
And what I’m saying is that outside of Stealth suits and maybe nurglings the answer is no they wouldn’t scouts are better that is how powerful deploying out of your zone during deployment is. As for scouts vs stealth suits. For durability I’m not certain it is a big difference depending on your chapter. For 2 wounds of scouts, you pay 6 points less than 2 wounds of stealth suits, and are better against multi-damage weapons. Now if the scouts are not raven guard -1 to hit helps the stealth teams. Stealth suits get the nod because their -1 to hit is better and they have a 3+ save but the difference is not huge. Offensively you are looking at 8 S 5 shots bs4+ for the cost of 10 bs 3+ S 4 shots. So that really depends on the target, but again nod to stealth suits. I never said scouts were the best just among them. Basically if you run an army that could bring scouts and you don’t you are hurting your chances of winning.
I don't think anyone would be crying if primaris marines were good. Except maybe people who like playing marines that are the size of guardsmen.
If Warhammer 40k involved shoving lit matches into your pee-hole, and instead changed to where you didn't have to- people would still cry that the 'old rules were better'.
And the Primaris Marines aren't bad, they're just not flexible like regular Marines. Put them down to do what they're specifically supposed to do, and they work just fine.
Xenomancers wrote: So in summary - Stealth suits are better in every way than scouts...yet - it doesn't matter because "opinions". Being a troop is irrelevant. Tau have firewarriors which are amazing - they don't need their infiltrators to be troops because they have actual options when building a list. Or they can just take kroot - who have a scout move and accomplish the same thing as an infiltrating unit - which is to push back enemy deep strikes.
Again except when the opposing army takes scouts and makes it so you cannot make said scout move....offensively it is pretty much a wash. Again your lack of understanding of board control concepts shows why you think gunlines are unbeatable.
Stealth suits compare favorably with scouts in both resilience and damage and mobility. The point I'm making is scouts are not good compared to other infiltrators. Practically any infiltrator data slate would be taken in favor of scouts.
Absolutely not true. Scouts are among the best infiltrators, because they are put there during deployment, beating out the other options for position. Only options that are also deployed as a deployment drop can compete with them, everything else is a long way behind.
You've got it backwards. Scouts would be preferable to practically any other infiltrator dataslate.
Stealth suits compare favorably with scouts in both resilience and damage and mobility. The point I'm making is scouts are not good compared to other infiltrators. Practically any infiltrator data slate would be taken in favor of scouts.
Absolutely not true. Scouts are among the best infiltrators, because they are put there during deployment, beating out the other options for position. Only options that are also deployed as a deployment drop can compete with them, everything else is a long way behind.
You've got it backwards. Scouts would be preferable to practically any other infiltrator dataslate.
Yes - and lemon russ tanks are bad...please just stop.
I don't think anyone would be crying if primaris marines were good. Except maybe people who like playing marines that are the size of guardsmen.
If Warhammer 40k involved shoving lit matches into your pee-hole, and instead changed to where you didn't have to- people would still cry that the 'old rules were better'.
And the Primaris Marines aren't bad, they're just not flexible like regular Marines. Put them down to do what they're specifically supposed to do, and they work just fine.
most everyone likes 8th better than 7th. Don't you?
Stealth suits compare favorably with scouts in both resilience and damage and mobility. The point I'm making is scouts are not good compared to other infiltrators. Practically any infiltrator data slate would be taken in favor of scouts.
Absolutely not true. Scouts are among the best infiltrators, because they are put there during deployment, beating out the other options for position. Only options that are also deployed as a deployment drop can compete with them, everything else is a long way behind.
You've got it backwards. Scouts would be preferable to practically any other infiltrator dataslate.
Yes - and lemon russ tanks are bad...please just stop.
Yes, they are, but that's for another time and place [also, it's Leman Russ, like my primarch]. I want to know why you think other infiltrators are better than scouts.
Why would I want to bring any of these other infiltrator dataslates? What advantages do they have to counteract the part where they don't beat scouts to position?
Scouts are among the best options for the purpose they serve.
In the hands of an experienced player wyches can be a solid unit with the new profile and all the codex combos available.
The_scotsman was also referring to Wych Cult units, not necessarily wyches. He was probably talking about hellions and reavers which can assault in turn 1 quite easily with the appropriate obsession as they have a long range movement, can advance and charge and also re-roll failed charge rolls.
In the hands of an experienced player wyches can be a solid unit with the new profile and all the codex combos available.
The_scotsman was also referring to Wych Cult units, not necessarily wyches. He was probably talking about hellions and reavers which can assault in turn 1 quite easily with the appropriate obsession as they have a long range movement, can advance and charge and also re-roll failed charge rolls.
Only witches and succubus have the lock in combat rule though right?
Stealth suits compare favorably with scouts in both resilience and damage and mobility. The point I'm making is scouts are not good compared to other infiltrators. Practically any infiltrator data slate would be taken in favor of scouts.
Absolutely not true. Scouts are among the best infiltrators, because they are put there during deployment, beating out the other options for position. Only options that are also deployed as a deployment drop can compete with them, everything else is a long way behind.
You've got it backwards. Scouts would be preferable to practically any other infiltrator dataslate.
Yes - and lemon russ tanks are bad...please just stop.
Yes, they are, but that's for another time and place [also, it's Leman Russ, like my primarch]. I want to know why you think other infiltrators are better than scouts.
Why would I want to bring any of these other infiltrator dataslates? What advantages do they have to counteract the part where they don't beat scouts to position?
I'm pretty sure the answers fall into 2 camps
1.) He has no idea what the unit actually does.
2.) It has some slight mathematical advantage in some phase of the game that isn't deployment, and this game is a RNG where all you do is roll dice and the guy with the bigger guns wins.
Or that is at least my interpretation based on reading his posts in numerous places.
In the hands of an experienced player wyches can be a solid unit with the new profile and all the codex combos available.
The_scotsman was also referring to Wych Cult units, not necessarily wyches. He was probably talking about hellions and reavers which can assault in turn 1 quite easily with the appropriate obsession as they have a long range movement, can advance and charge and also re-roll failed charge rolls.
Only witches and succubus have the lock in combat rule though right?
Yes, but I believe his comment was in two parts – the first being the fast cult units to get past the scouts hovering 9” away from your deployment, and then the Wytch units to run up from deployment to lock them up.
However, any Wytch unit doing that would likely kill the unit they are attacking anyway, so, won’t always be a benefit.
Stealth suits compare favorably with scouts in both resilience and damage and mobility. The point I'm making is scouts are not good compared to other infiltrators. Practically any infiltrator data slate would be taken in favor of scouts.
Absolutely not true. Scouts are among the best infiltrators, because they are put there during deployment, beating out the other options for position. Only options that are also deployed as a deployment drop can compete with them, everything else is a long way behind.
You've got it backwards. Scouts would be preferable to practically any other infiltrator dataslate.
Yes - and lemon russ tanks are bad...please just stop.
Yes, they are, but that's for another time and place. I want to know why you think other infiltrators are better than scouts.
Why would I want to bring any of these other infiltrator dataslates? What advantages do they have to counteract the part where they don't beat scouts to position?
First LR are one of the best units in the game.
Scouts are pretty expensive per wound compared to other infiltrators and they don't offer better durability or firepower per point. If your job is just to take us space and you actaully don't take up much space or hold space - why do you exist?
A ranger unit does everything a scout unit does - as well as being hard to remove - and has a reasonably effective weapon. Scouts have bolters.
Stealth suits are much harder to remove and have more firepower with better range.
Things like kroot which I put in the same ballpark as scouts because their scout move does the important part of the job for an infiltrator have nearly tripple the firepower and twice the durability and take up nearly triple the amount of space. the have the exact same weapon a scout does for less than half it's points.
Nurglings are so small you can hide them behind a pebble and are effectively immune to damage. Plus are twice as hard to remove in the open.
What do scouts do better than any of these units? Fight in CC? GTFO.
Stealth suits compare favorably with scouts in both resilience and damage and mobility. The point I'm making is scouts are not good compared to other infiltrators. Practically any infiltrator data slate would be taken in favor of scouts.
Absolutely not true. Scouts are among the best infiltrators, because they are put there during deployment, beating out the other options for position. Only options that are also deployed as a deployment drop can compete with them, everything else is a long way behind.
You've got it backwards. Scouts would be preferable to practically any other infiltrator dataslate.
Yes - and lemon russ tanks are bad...please just stop.
Yes, they are, but that's for another time and place [also, it's Leman Russ, like my primarch]. I want to know why you think other infiltrators are better than scouts.
Why would I want to bring any of these other infiltrator dataslates? What advantages do they have to counteract the part where they don't beat scouts to position?
I'm pretty sure the answers fall into 2 camps
1.) He has no idea what the unit actually does.
2.) It has some slight mathematical advantage in some phase of the game that isn't deployment, and this game is a RNG where all you do is roll dice and the guy with the bigger guns wins.
Or that is at least my interpretation based on reading his posts in numerous places.
Yeah math has a lot to do with everything I say. Because this is a dice game. Better math wins more often than not.
Your right though - I have no idea what I am talking about because I mistakenly thought mandrakes could infiltrate but they actually deep strike.
But what happens when the Scout unit deploys before the Nurglings, Ghostkeels or Stealth Suits?
What happens if I deploy 3 units of Scouts before you get you scout move your Kroot or deploy your Rangers?
What happens if my first drop is 1 unit of 10 scouts right in the middle of the table, spread out as far as possible?
Just because Scouts don’t have that best damage output or have a worse wounds to points ratio, doesn’t mean Rangers or Kroot are inherently better than them.
You also need to take into account that Scouts are the only Imperium units that can deploy like this, with a few other units that can “scout” move before the first turn. It doesn’t matter if other units in other armies are better, if, for Imperium they are the only option.
If I go up against 3 units of Rangers, I’d be perfectly happy with them deploying in their own deployment zone, because it means they are essentially nothing more than “home” objective campers hoping for the odd pot shot at characters. The moment they have to start moving around the table and out of cover, is the moment they lose so much of their “power”. Also, Scouts can also take sniper rifles if you want to pay the points for them, so, that needs to be considered when comparing them to Rangers.
Nurglings can be more difficult to remove in the open, but, then, as there are so many 2+ damage weapons out there, I’d just fire them at them if I needed to remove them and deny them their FNP.
Everything can be removed easily enough in 8th, if you use the right tools.
Rangers are worse at actually holding territory and less durable, unless in terrain. Their gun is only better at killing certain targets against things screens generally want to shoot they are worse, because they have fewer shots at the same Strength. They also deploy after deployment so point of fact don't do everything a scout does and their ability is shut down by....Scouts
Point for point stealth suits are not much harder to remove, it takes 20 bolter hits to remove a 5 man scout squad, and 36 to remove a 3 man stealth squad.So you are paying 0.36 hits per point per hit needed for scouts, and 0.42 points per hit for stealth suits. Now if you are not taking raven guard scouts, or your enemy is within 12", then the -1 to hit pulls this in favor of stealth suits 0.54 shots per point to kill a scout squad (30 bolter shots) and 0.86 shots per point to kill a stealth team (72 shots). But throw in multiple damage weapon and scouts have the edge by a significant amount. It has already been shown they in fact have less fire power per point, at worse BS but better S. Against Chaff that ends up being a wash. It only looks a lot better for the stealth team if you don't consider points.
Kroot are no where near as good at occupying space because Scouts prevent them from doing just that.
Nurglings if modeled as they are in the new kits are not all that small, and they take up less space than scouts. But they are another good option.
Basically other than Nurglings and Stealth teams none of the options you are talking about touch scouts for usefulness.
Stealth suits compare favorably with scouts in both resilience and damage and mobility. The point I'm making is scouts are not good compared to other infiltrators. Practically any infiltrator data slate would be taken in favor of scouts.
Absolutely not true. Scouts are among the best infiltrators, because they are put there during deployment, beating out the other options for position. Only options that are also deployed as a deployment drop can compete with them, everything else is a long way behind.
You've got it backwards. Scouts would be preferable to practically any other infiltrator dataslate.
Yes - and lemon russ tanks are bad...please just stop.
Yes, they are, but that's for another time and place. I want to know why you think other infiltrators are better than scouts.
Why would I want to bring any of these other infiltrator dataslates? What advantages do they have to counteract the part where they don't beat scouts to position?
First LR are one of the best units in the game.
Scouts are pretty expensive per wound compared to other infiltrators and they don't offer better durability or firepower per point. If your job is just to take us space and you actaully don't take up much space or hold space - why do you exist?
A ranger unit does everything a scout unit does - as well as being hard to remove - and has a reasonably effective weapon. Scouts have bolters.
Stealth suits are much harder to remove and have more firepower with better range.
Things like kroot which I put in the same ballpark as scouts because their scout move does the important part of the job for an infiltrator have nearly tripple the firepower and twice the durability and take up nearly triple the amount of space. the have the exact same weapon a scout does for less than half it's points.
Nurglings are so small you can hide them behind a pebble and are effectively immune to damage. Plus are twice as hard to remove in the open.
What do scouts do better than any of these units? Fight in CC? GTFO.
Scouts firepower, or lack thereof, is entirely irrelevant because it doesn't contribute to their primary function. They don't exist to bring firepower to the board, they exist to get in the way of things like Dominion Vanguard and Alpha Legion infiltration.
Scouts scout first. That's the short of it. Rangers, Kroot, etc. all go afterwords, at the same time enemy Dominions and Alpha Legionaries go, which means they're only effective at interfereing with them the half the time you get to go first. And if you were going first, your infiltrators are having their lowest possible value. Scouts will infiltrate before everything but Stealthsuits [and apparently Nurglings], whom they tie with, but will still have an opportunity to zone some of the board against.
Scouts are extremely good at zoning and board control, far better than the competing options which do their thing "after deployment but before the first player takes the first turn".
For 55 points, you get over 3 square feet of completely reliable infiltrator denial. Even if you have second drop against nurglings or stealthsuits [or scouts], they can't monopolize all the frontage, so you can secure yourself a nice little area to set up the rest of your troops safe from enemy vanguards and infiltrator
The only other outstanding consideration is if they're still there on turn 2 to deny deep strikers, but by then a lot of other factor have had an opportunity to come into play, like your own guns.
Any you know what? Scouts are cheap a precious commodity in the Space Marines. They're a best-in-class unit that's also super cheap, enough to be a compelling reason to splash Space Marines in a mixed Imperium list.
@Xeno- You also thought Kommandos could infiltrate, kroot could infiltrate, that rangers function like scouts....so yes you don't know what you are talking about in this instance.
Further Better math in a vacum does not win games. I beat guard armies all the time that math says should win because of things like scouts allowing me to murder them should I go first.
"Just because Scouts don’t have that best damage output or have a worse wounds to points ratio, doesn’t mean Rangers or Kroot are inherently better than them."
Yes it does - it's as simple as that.
Most 2 damage weapons are plasma. They will not overcharge against -1 to hit.
Xenomancers wrote: "Just because Scouts don’t have that best damage output or have a worse wounds to points ratio, doesn’t mean Rangers or Kroot are inherently better than them."
Yes it does - it's as simple as that.
Most 2 damage weapons are plasma. They will not overcharge against -1 to hit.
No,it really doesn't and this is why my statement about math you have a very poor understanding of how things actually work on the table top. As for 2 damage weapons, autocannons, pretty much all IG tanks, plenty of close combat weapons do 2 or more damage. Then all the D6 damage weapons which could shoot....I'm not saying that against the things you would like to shoot at screens Scouts are better, but if I can shoot 1 lascannon dev squad at your stealth suits and clear all of them in a turn I might just do that.
Xenomancers wrote: "Just because Scouts don’t have that best damage output or have a worse wounds to points ratio, doesn’t mean Rangers or Kroot are inherently better than them."
Yes it does - it's as simple as that.
Most 2 damage weapons are plasma. They will not overcharge against -1 to hit.
No, it doesn't, because you don't bring scouts to shoot or fight.
Each unit brought is brought to fill a specific task, and paying for features that don't contribute to this task is a waste of points. If scouts paid for better guns or close-quarters ability, they'd stop being good.
They're near maximum efficiency zoning and board control. It's really hard to argue they're not good.
Breng77 wrote: @Xeno- You also thought Kommandos could infiltrate, kroot could infiltrate, that rangers function like scouts....so yes you don't know what you are talking about in this instance.
Further Better math in a vacum does not win games. I beat guard armies all the time that math says should win because of things like scouts allowing me to murder them should I go first.
All out of deployment zone deployment...including scout moves - serve the same function. ESP if you are building your list around it. For example a tau list just needs deep strikers pushed back
Deepstrike is different true - that was my mistake on commandoes and mandrakes - in my defense these have always been infiltration units in the past. Why they now deep-strike is beyond me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Pictures from the WC post.
Spoiler:
The Mission Tactics ability allows the Deathwatch to adjust their fighting style dependent on your opponent. At the start of the game, you’ll get to pick a Mission Tactic which corresponds to a Battlefield Role – Troops, Fast Attack, Elites, etc. – and your entire army will gain re-rolls of 1s to wound against that unit. Like Chapter Tactics, Mission Tactics applies to all your infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts, so you’ll be able to take advantage of a wide range of units.
Auto bolt rifles, bolt carbines, stalker bolt rifles, standard bolt rifles and the absolvor bolt pistol can now be outfitted with this ammunition, making Intercessors a very powerful choice. Kraken bolts, for example, help compensate for the lower AP of the auto bolt rifle, while a Reiver’s heavy bolt pistol firing vengeance rounds would have an AP of -3!
Breng77 wrote: @Xeno- You also thought Kommandos could infiltrate, kroot could infiltrate, that rangers function like scouts....so yes you don't know what you are talking about in this instance.
Further Better math in a vacum does not win games. I beat guard armies all the time that math says should win because of things like scouts allowing me to murder them should I go first.
All out of deployment zone deployment...including scout moves - serve the same function. ESP if you are building your list around it. For example a tau list just needs deep strikers pushed back
Deepstrike is different true - that was my mistake on commandoes and mandrakes - in my defense these have always been infiltration units in the past. Why they now deep-strike is beyond me.
They serve similar purpose but not always the same. Some scout move unit are used offensively, as are some infiltrating style units. Further the difference in how they function is key to the whole discussion. When one of the options can render the other completely useless in that role, that option is by default the better option. Hence why scout squads, Nurglings and stealth teams are on a different level of utility than any of the other options you claim are "better" than scouts. Failure to understand this is a key misunderstanding of how the game gets played on top tables.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Pictures from the WC post.
Spoiler:
The Mission Tactics ability allows the Deathwatch to adjust their fighting style dependent on your opponent. At the start of the game, you’ll get to pick a Mission Tactic which corresponds to a Battlefield Role – Troops, Fast Attack, Elites, etc. – and your entire army will gain re-rolls of 1s to wound against that unit. Like Chapter Tactics, Mission Tactics applies to all your infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts, so you’ll be able to take advantage of a wide range of units.
Auto bolt rifles, bolt carbines, stalker bolt rifles, standard bolt rifles and the absolvor bolt pistol can now be outfitted with this ammunition, making Intercessors a very powerful choice. Kraken bolts, for example, help compensate for the lower AP of the auto bolt rifle, while a Reiver’s heavy bolt pistol firing vengeance rounds would have an AP of -3!
some interesting stuff, it really will come down to cost of units and delivery of said units.
Breng77 wrote: @Xeno- You also thought Kommandos could infiltrate, kroot could infiltrate, that rangers function like scouts....so yes you don't know what you are talking about in this instance.
Further Better math in a vacum does not win games. I beat guard armies all the time that math says should win because of things like scouts allowing me to murder them should I go first.
All out of deployment zone deployment...including scout moves - serve the same function. ESP if you are building your list around it. For example a tau list just needs deep strikers pushed back
Deepstrike is different true - that was my mistake on commandoes and mandrakes - in my defense these have always been infiltration units in the past. Why they now deep-strike is beyond me.
They serve similar purpose but not always the same. Some scout move unit are used offensively, as are some infiltrating style units. Further the difference in how they function is key to the whole discussion. When one of the options can render the other completely useless in that role, that option is by default the better option. Hence why scout squads, Nurglings and stealth teams are on a different level of utility than any of the other options you claim are "better" than scouts. Failure to understand this is a key misunderstanding of how the game gets played on top tables.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Pictures from the WC post.
Spoiler:
The Mission Tactics ability allows the Deathwatch to adjust their fighting style dependent on your opponent. At the start of the game, you’ll get to pick a Mission Tactic which corresponds to a Battlefield Role – Troops, Fast Attack, Elites, etc. – and your entire army will gain re-rolls of 1s to wound against that unit. Like Chapter Tactics, Mission Tactics applies to all your infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts, so you’ll be able to take advantage of a wide range of units.
Auto bolt rifles, bolt carbines, stalker bolt rifles, standard bolt rifles and the absolvor bolt pistol can now be outfitted with this ammunition, making Intercessors a very powerful choice. Kraken bolts, for example, help compensate for the lower AP of the auto bolt rifle, while a Reiver’s heavy bolt pistol firing vengeance rounds would have an AP of -3!
some interesting stuff, it really will come down to cost of units and delivery of said units.
I agree. I'm not expecting to see the Repulsor make it into the codex (though it could i guess). It's also sad, in a way, to see GW confirm that they intended to shaft all Marines in terms of restricting "chapter tactics" by also imposing this restriction on DW as well. Not surprising though.
Xenomancers wrote: "Just because Scouts don’t have that best damage output or have a worse wounds to points ratio, doesn’t mean Rangers or Kroot are inherently better than them."
Yes it does - it's as simple as that.
Most 2 damage weapons are plasma. They will not overcharge against -1 to hit.
No, it doesn't, because you don't bring scouts to shoot or fight.
Each unit brought is brought to fill a specific task, and paying for features that don't contribute to this task is a waste of points. If scouts paid for better guns or close-quarters ability, they'd stop being good.
They're near maximum efficiency zoning and board control. It's really hard to argue they're not good.
It's easy to argue they aren't good. Am can get their same zoning potential from scout sentinels - and they should because scout sentinels don't suck. Outside of alpha legion bezerkers being deployed on your door step - the sentinals will do better in every situation - by being harder to kill and having better firepower and contributing to the gunline against other gunlines. What to do about alpha legion bezerkers? This is why you have lines and lines of infantry. 9 inches deep.
For "competitive" space marine armies - (which are likely to consist of 3 storm ravens) There is your front line. Immune to turn 1 CC nonsense that doesn't fly - what the heck do I need scouts for? Your scouts? just fodder for my hurricane bolters as I fly by getting automatic rapid fire because you deployed in the middle of the table like a dunce.
What specific task is scout infiltration serving outside of what a scout sentinel can do? denying opponents infiltration? I don't care where my opponents put rangers dude. I am going to ignore them all game unless they are too close to a unit that has nothing else to do.
I dunno. Intercessors getting special ammo really increases their damage output. As long as they don't get a big price increase, I got a feeling that Deathwatch Primaris are gonna be at least decent.
Xenomancers wrote: "Just because Scouts don’t have that best damage output or have a worse wounds to points ratio, doesn’t mean Rangers or Kroot are inherently better than them."
Yes it does - it's as simple as that.
Most 2 damage weapons are plasma. They will not overcharge against -1 to hit.
No, it doesn't, because you don't bring scouts to shoot or fight.
Each unit brought is brought to fill a specific task, and paying for features that don't contribute to this task is a waste of points. If scouts paid for better guns or close-quarters ability, they'd stop being good.
They're near maximum efficiency zoning and board control. It's really hard to argue they're not good.
It's easy to argue they aren't good. Am can get their same zoning potential from scout sentinels - and they should because scout sentinels don't suck. Outside of alpha legion bezerkers being deployed on your door step - the sentinals will do better in every situation - by being harder to kill and having better firepower and contributing to the gunline against other gunlines. What to do about alpha legion bezerkers? This is why you have lines and lines of infantry. 9 inches deep.
For "competitive" space marine armies - (which are likely to consist of 3 storm ravens) There is your front line. Immune to turn 1 CC nonsense that doesn't fly - what the heck do I need scouts for? Your scouts? just fodder for my hurricane bolters as I fly by getting automatic rapid fire because you deployed in the middle of the table like a dunce.
What specific task is scout infiltration serving outside of what a scout sentinel can do? denying opponents infiltration? I don't care where my opponents put rangers dude. I am going to ignore them all game unless they are too close to a unit that has nothing else to do.
Except the facing my Ravenguard or sisters + raven guard lists that strand those sentinels in your deployment, scout my dominions up and murder all your infantry turn 1 and engage a bunch of your tanks....Or those Berserkers take some prisoners, or fight 3 times, and tie up your vehicles....
If you ignore your opponents rangers you will lose on objectives when they deploy on them...after all you ignored them so they are still alive...
3 storm ravens isn't competitive anymore, it hasn't won a GT in forever, or even placed highly they are too pricey these days.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I dunno. Intercessors getting special ammo really increases their damage output. As long as they don't get a big price increase, I got a feeling that Deathwatch Primaris are gonna be at least decent.
Extra AP on guns and reroll 1s to wound against the targets they want dead most...sounds good to me! It's going to be a hell of a bolter party.
Kdash wrote: I agree. I'm not expecting to see the Repulsor make it into the codex (though it could i guess). It's also sad, in a way, to see GW confirm that they intended to shaft all Marines in terms of restricting "chapter tactics" by also imposing this restriction on DW as well. Not surprising though.
Well there goes any hope of CA 2018 finally changing that imbalance.
DW look like they have some realt powerful ticks to pull of in terma of mission tactics and being able to change them I think 3-4 tines in a single game thats insanely powerful in allowing you to focoua down an army selection by selection bar transports.
The real question is going to come down to points as if they are even remotely close to vanilla marine costs marines will have to see points drops.
I want to run an all Primaris army, and these Deathwatch rules sound promising. I really hope there are no pointless limitations and you can use all the currently available Primaris models as Deathwatch.
I guess the big question is whether the special ammo is free, or whether it comes with a point increase. Also, Raven Guard rules are still pretty good, but if DW gets free special ammo, then they could be real contender for best way to run Primaris Marines.
I'm not sure if any of this make the army competitive in general, but as I want to use Primaris models regardless, I'm shopping for best possible rules for them.
Red_Five wrote: I really dislike the fact that so much of the Deathwatch thread is being eaten up with posts about scouts and stealth suits.
Will Deathwatch affect the meta? No. They are an elite army full of fragile models.
Will they be fun t play in normal games? Heck yeah.
Will they win big tournaments? No.
Well, we are seeing another example of how sticking to the topic on a Dakka thread is like accidentally stepping in the wrong bathroom. Everyone starts screaming at you to get out, you feel really embarassed and forget why you were there in the first place.
Let's talk about what we learned from today's post. They are saying Deathwatch is highly adaptable, and they are showing off a Stratagem. Great.
Tempest Shells will be great against some vehicle with high toughness and lots of wounds. I can see this possibly being used to take that tank down a tier, or finish it off after a round of shooting.
For it to work, Deathwatch will need to be able to a) do other wounds to the vehicle and b) hit with this Stratagem. While there aren't a lot of ways for a vehicle to get cover, there are plenty of 'chapter tactics' that give a modifier that works like cover at 12 inches. So some subfactions will be better than other at resisting this.
But it's only d3 mortal wounds, it's only useful against vehicles, and it's depends on getting the hit - which is crucial. BS 3 can become a BS 4 (or BS 5 with Doom) and suddenly this 1 CP Stratagem is very hard to pull off. Also, Kill Teams are not exactly good at blowing up vehicles, with only plasma, melta, missile launchers and power weapons to work with. So why would GW be touting this as a reason to play Deathwatch?
For the DW lists I've made, I've had a hard time coming up with a decent list that uses more than a Battalion, because every unit is expensive. Currently, it costs a lot for that adaptability. Let's say the average DW player is going to have 8 VPs to play with. If this Stratagem is going to be useful, either the points of Kill Team squads are going to go down, they are going to get some better vehicle-wrecking weapons, or those Primaris are going to be able to do something we haven't all thought of yet.
What is GW saying about the Codex with this Stratagem? Is this how they plan to fix AV for DW? Ask yourself how likely it is this Stratagem will actually be used to kill vehicles / take them down a tier.
Crimson wrote: I want to run an all Primaris army, and these Deathwatch rules sound promising. I really hope there are no pointless limitations and you can use all the currently available Primaris models as Deathwatch.
I guess the big question is whether the special ammo is free, or whether it comes with a point increase. Also, Raven Guard rules are still pretty good, but if DW gets free special ammo, then they could be real contender for best way to run Primaris Marines.
I'm not sure if any of this make the army competitive in general, but as I want to use Primaris models regardless, I'm shopping for best possible rules for them.
It's going to be hard to beat the RG infiltrate. If they end up with the same stratagem as the RG - there is a pretty good chance they will be the best marines.
Crimson wrote: I want to run an all Primaris army, and these Deathwatch rules sound promising. I really hope there are no pointless limitations and you can use all the currently available Primaris models as Deathwatch.
I guess the big question is whether the special ammo is free, or whether it comes with a point increase. Also, Raven Guard rules are still pretty good, but if DW gets free special ammo, then they could be real contender for best way to run Primaris Marines.
I'm not sure if any of this make the army competitive in general, but as I want to use Primaris models regardless, I'm shopping for best possible rules for them.
It's going to be hard to beat the RG infiltrate. If they end up with the same stratagem as the RG - there is a pretty good chance they will be the best marines.
They're gonna get a Deep Strike Strategem. Mark my words.
In the hands of an experienced player wyches can be a solid unit with the new profile and all the codex combos available.
The_scotsman was also referring to Wych Cult units, not necessarily wyches. He was probably talking about hellions and reavers which can assault in turn 1 quite easily with the appropriate obsession as they have a long range movement, can advance and charge and also re-roll failed charge rolls.
Only witches and succubus have the lock in combat rule though right?
Yes, but I believe his comment was in two parts – the first being the fast cult units to get past the scouts hovering 9” away from your deployment, and then the Wytch units to run up from deployment to lock them up.
However, any Wytch unit doing that would likely kill the unit they are attacking anyway, so, won’t always be a benefit.
Not at all. That's the thing: because so few unts in 8th have the ability to prevent fallback, the old 7th ed technique of trying to deny killing on your turn to kill on your opponent's turn rarely comes up in 8th - but it's actually so easy to do with Wyches it's not even funny.
Lets say we have eldar rangers - made of paper, you don't want to kill them. Take your wyches, charge them. Contact with 1 model, keep your shardnet 3" away but over 1" from the contacting model. All other models over 1" from contacting model. pile in up the board. attack with one wych, if he kills the one you're next to, just consolidate to get models within 1". On his turn, he's got a 20% chance of leaving, then you move your wyches into contact and slaughter them, then consolidate 3" towards the enemy lines ready to get the party started.
In the hands of an experienced player wyches can be a solid unit with the new profile and all the codex combos available.
The_scotsman was also referring to Wych Cult units, not necessarily wyches. He was probably talking about hellions and reavers which can assault in turn 1 quite easily with the appropriate obsession as they have a long range movement, can advance and charge and also re-roll failed charge rolls.
Only witches and succubus have the lock in combat rule though right?
Yes, but I believe his comment was in two parts – the first being the fast cult units to get past the scouts hovering 9” away from your deployment, and then the Wytch units to run up from deployment to lock them up.
However, any Wytch unit doing that would likely kill the unit they are attacking anyway, so, won’t always be a benefit.
Not at all. That's the thing: because so few unts in 8th have the ability to prevent fallback, the old 7th ed technique of trying to deny killing on your turn to kill on your opponent's turn rarely comes up in 8th - but it's actually so easy to do with Wyches it's not even funny.
Lets say we have eldar rangers - made of paper, you don't want to kill them. Take your wyches, charge them. Contact with 1 model, keep your shardnet 3" away but over 1" from the contacting model. All other models over 1" from contacting model. pile in up the board. attack with one wych, if he kills the one you're next to, just consolidate to get models within 1". On his turn, he's got a 20% chance of leaving, then you move your wyches into contact and slaughter them, then consolidate 3" towards the enemy lines ready to get the party started.
Xenomancers wrote: So in summary - Stealth suits are better in every way than scouts...yet - it doesn't matter because "opinions". Being a troop is irrelevant. Tau have firewarriors which are amazing - they don't need their infiltrators to be troops because they have actual options when building a list. Or they can just take kroot - who have a scout move and accomplish the same thing as an infiltrating unit - which is to push back enemy deep strikes.
This, in response to this:
"SS compare favorably in damage and mobility, but that means pretty much jackall for an infiltrator, which is primarily just there to absorb turn 1 damage, prevent movement especially from turn 1 chargers, and establish board control.
Stealth Suits cost 14 points per wound vs 11 points per wound, and that's pretty good for the extra durability. 21% more cost for 34% more durability. But there's less than half as many bodies on the table (making them worse at that "block movement" job that's half the reason you take them) and critically they're Elites rather than troops. a screening detachment of Scouts can be a Battalion, bringing 5CPs, while at best your stealth suits will contribute to bringing 1 to the table. "
Is pretty much the best highlighting of Xeno's attitude I could possibly distill.
It's a roll off but with a D3 against a D6 if the wyches unit has a model with shardnet & impaler which only costs 5 points. A succubus can have it as well.
All out of deployment zone deployment...including scout moves - serve the same function. ESP if you are building your list around it. For example a tau list just needs deep strikers pushed back
Scouts are amongst the absolute best out of deployment zone units because they deploy BEFORE almost every other such unit. They are able to block Scout Sentinels, Pathfinders, Alpha Legion/Raven Guard infiltrators, etc. They provide a buffer zone for your own deepstrikers and prevent the opponent from sneaking up on you. They are reasonably offensive and can even be used to tie up shooty things in close-combat if they get first turn.
You not seeing how they are one of the strongest troop choices in the game explains a lot about your understanding and attitude...
Blackie wrote: It's a roll off but with a D3 against a D6 if the wyches unit has a model with shardnet & impaler which only costs 5 points. A succubus can have it as well.
Works out to an 80% chance the wyches win, like I said.
red grief wyches popping out of a transport move 14", advance, then charge with a reroll. There's a pretty good motivation to want to put down infiltrators in front of them, because it's not super inconceivable that they could cross no man's land and get to a screen. And while Drukhari don't have infiltrators, it's a soup game, Eldar do, and eldar also have fantastically high value HQ units. Jinx spiritseer and Doom/Executioner bike farseer plus three units of rangers is a really solid detachment.
A much better topic when you opt to ignore the repeat offenders of off-topic conversations.
I think there will be some nice options with DW but will probably need to ally with some Guard etc for more competitive builds.
I'm not sure what the point of the topic is in all honesty?
Can someone say what the current meta is with absolute clarity? I don't think so. It's still in the development state and there haven't been many big tournaments since the FAQ (that I know of anyway).
The FAQ has really shaken things up, big time. I predict it'll take a lot longer than previously for a stable meta to form, because the rule of 3 limits spamming the best units. Players have to take other units that they previously wouldn't consider. That changes the meta. The meta then reacts and changes again. This is all happening as the DW, Harlies and Knight codex is being released.
TLDR - the meta is about as unsettled as it can be right now, predicting what a codex will do to the meta before it's released is a fool's errand.
bullyboy wrote: A much better topic when you opt to ignore the repeat offenders of off-topic conversations.
I think there will be some nice options with DW but will probably need to ally with some Guard etc for more competitive builds.
That said, the bump with the Battalion made needing Guard allies less a thing. Not saying they won't be dependent (all the Imperial are, really), but it helps a little bit at least.
Good god, reading the last three pages was hilarious. I never thought I'd ever see anyone say Scouts were trash. Both of the marine armies that beat me at LVO used them to cockblock my scout sentinels and Ratlings, making 200+ points of my army lose most of their value before the game even started. If you can't see how good that is because you're so focused in on the mathhammer, then no wonder youre so frustrated with 8th.
RogueApiary wrote: Good god, reading the last three pages was hilarious. I never thought I'd ever see anyone say Scouts were trash. Both of the marine armies that beat me at LVO used them to cockblock my scout sentinels and Ratlings, making 200+ points of my army lose most of their value before the game even started. If you can't see how good that is because you're so focused in on the mathhammer, then no wonder youre so frustrated with 8th.
Scouts are very good mechanically, but like most marine units, simply cost too much to be considered good or great imo. A one turn cockblock doesn't matter when you are just going to table the marines anyway.
Just because they use them, doesn't make them good/great. It makes them necessary due to their unique mechanic. I've actually stopped using them for a bit to see how that works. I'm tired of paying 55 pts for units that just die without accomplishing anything.
RogueApiary wrote: Good god, reading the last three pages was hilarious. I never thought I'd ever see anyone say Scouts were trash. Both of the marine armies that beat me at LVO used them to cockblock my scout sentinels and Ratlings, making 200+ points of my army lose most of their value before the game even started. If you can't see how good that is because you're so focused in on the mathhammer, then no wonder youre so frustrated with 8th.
Scouts are very good mechanically, but like most marine units, simply cost too much to be considered good or great imo. A one turn cockblock doesn't matter when you are just going to table the marines anyway.
Evidently he didn't do that, given that the sentence here started with "both marine armies that beat me at LVO".
Glad deathwatch is getting special ammo but I wish they would also give it back to Sternguard. Having that flexibility made Sternguard awesome but now they just have +1 bolters which is just lame. In particular combi weapon Sternguard got the shaft due to the bolter part being a bog standard bolter.
They will receive a load of upgrade kits for Primaris marines along with some specially re-boxed set that contain them already.
In reality, they will do what they should have done with Marines and allow a Primaris squad to add a bit of variety to their guns - then they'll knock up the points so high that you may as well just take Custodes.
What if DW get a reasonably pointed transport for Primaris? I see a lot of gloom and doom - I think we would have heard the same about Custodes but GW kept it hush hush.
RogueApiary wrote: Good god, reading the last three pages was hilarious. I never thought I'd ever see anyone say Scouts were trash. Both of the marine armies that beat me at LVO used them to cockblock my scout sentinels and Ratlings, making 200+ points of my army lose most of their value before the game even started. If you can't see how good that is because you're so focused in on the mathhammer, then no wonder youre so frustrated with 8th.
Scouts are very good mechanically, but like most marine units, simply cost too much to be considered good or great imo. A one turn cockblock doesn't matter when you are just going to table the marines anyway.
Evidently he didn't do that, given that the sentence here started with "both marine armies that beat me at LVO".
Exactly. I did almost table both of them, but having center of board control all the way to round three/four gave them the point lead they needed to win. Both players also had a lot of solid anti infantry to stop me from contesting objectives.
The RG player used the space his scouts gave him to SFTS 6 Aggressors into ruins in the board center and proceeded to delete my entire front line of infantry and forced me to hold my other infantry in my deployment zone until they were cleared.
The DA player was Phil the Glacial Geek (great guy btw), and he also used his scouts to maintain center board control as well as using the Dark Shroud to keep a lot of his army relatively safe the first two turns. He jammed a Dark Talon (might have even been two of them but I can't recall) into my lines turn 1 and again, deleted my forward most infantry units to prevent me from contesting the center.
Edit* the main firepower portion of my list was 3 Basilisks, 2 Manticores, a LRBT, LR punisher, and an LR Annihilator, as well as 8 mortars.
Breng77 wrote: Why not that seems to be most games in general. By turn 5 most of my games have at least one (if not both) players nearly tabled.
Yeah. I've certainly tabled Guard myself on several occasions, and I have seen Guard tabled by marines plenty of times (post-FAQ that's definitely happening less, but there were certainly plenty of ways to remove 2000 points of guard from the table lickity-split with alpha bezerkers+oblits and blood angels)
It takes some careful mission planning and terrain setups to avoid tabling being a serious possibility in most games. Early 8th definitely swung the pendulum heavily in favor of model removal after the "I shot 600 shots and removed 2 necrons!" "Ok now I jink, that's a 3+ for me because shrouded, and I re-roll it" "and now I roll grimoire - oop, no one, guess my army is invincible for the turn" frustrations of competitive 7th ed.
And just like how if you were playing uncompetitive 7th ed hyper-durability wasn't as much an issue, if you're playing uncompetitive 8th ed hyper-killiness isn't as much an issue.
Mixed squads. Reivers provide Terror Troops, Aggressors provide a buff that removes the penalty to assault weapons for advancing and heavy weapons for moving. Inceptors allow you to fall back and still shoot. Hellblasters don't bring a buff, but being able to add plasma to a Primaris Intercessor squad is pretty freakin' sick.
That's great, but they are still too expensive on a model by model basis. Too many cheap multi-damage weapons, too much cheap rend. Intercessors likely still dead weight. Expensive dead weight.
Mixed squads. Reivers provide Terror Troops, Aggressors provide a buff that removes the penalty to assault weapons for advancing and heavy weapons for moving. Inceptors allow you to fall back and still shoot. Hellblasters don't bring a buff, but being able to add plasma to a Primaris Intercessor squad is pretty freakin' sick.
Yawn.
it's amazing how quickly Deathwatch becomes much, MUCH more one-note and dull when you take out individual customization of model wargear.
I also just can't get over how ridiculous the idea of adding a single jet pack guy to a squad of footsloggers is. A special weapon guy? A heavy? A melee commando? All that, I get, and in general it makes primaris much less boring. But having one dude floating around with a giant jetpack, keeping pace with guys on foot and trying to not burn them with his jetpack exhaust...what possible tactical use would that have?
I also just can't get over how ridiculous the idea of adding a single jet pack guy to a squad of footsloggers is. A special weapon guy? A heavy? A melee commando? All that, I get, and in general it makes primaris much less boring. But having one dude floating around with a giant jetpack, keeping pace with guys on foot and trying to not burn them with his jetpack exhaust...what possible tactical use would that have?
Well, since he flies above the jet wash isn't going to be a huge issue. And the tactical use is he does something like jet wash the CC opponents allowing his squad to act like they have fly.
I also just can't get over how ridiculous the idea of adding a single jet pack guy to a squad of footsloggers is. A special weapon guy? A heavy? A melee commando? All that, I get, and in general it makes primaris much less boring. But having one dude floating around with a giant jetpack, keeping pace with guys on foot and trying to not burn them with his jetpack exhaust...what possible tactical use would that have?
Well, since he flies above the jet wash isn't going to be a huge issue. And the tactical use is he does something like jet wash the CC opponents allowing his squad to act like they have fly.
I think it's pretty damn cool.
Yeah, you can fluff it I guess. Still seems like a Pure Game Thing to me. I'd much rather my team of elite commando operatives weren't LESS flexible than individual units composed of the same models, but that could be just me.
side note: does it look like they're just using the basic deathwatch upgrade frame on these primaris units to swap the shoulderpad? would the units from Dark Imperium be compatible with that, or are they all monopose with the shoulderpads sculpted on?
side note: does it look like they're just using the basic deathwatch upgrade frame on these primaris units to swap the shoulderpad? would the units from Dark Imperium be compatible with that, or are they all monopose with the shoulderpads sculpted on?
Yeah, you can fluff it I guess. Still seems like a Pure Game Thing to me. I'd much rather my team of elite commando operatives weren't LESS flexible than individual units composed of the same models, but that could be just me.
I'm having a hard time understanding why you think they're less flexible. Sure they can't all fly, but the can fall back like fly and move heavies without penalty. You can take guns to places you would normally never take them and minimize the risk of being caught in CC.
I also just can't get over how ridiculous the idea of adding a single jet pack guy to a squad of footsloggers is. A special weapon guy? A heavy? A melee commando? All that, I get, and in general it makes primaris much less boring. But having one dude floating around with a giant jetpack, keeping pace with guys on foot and trying to not burn them with his jetpack exhaust...what possible tactical use would that have?
Never played the FF Deathwatch RPG? Having a mixed squad with some guys with flight capabilities actually helps a lot when figthing. When you have enemies on high and low ground at the same time, the flying marines can jumpjet and take care of them, not counting different enemy types. On the tabletop sadly all of this gets fluffed away, but in a kill-team game it makes more sense. That's the sadness of an army like Deathwatch. It's not made for all out war, it can't shine out. It will always feel forced. It needs kill-team rules or just straight RPG.
Of course, if you're figthing underground or boarding a spaceship, maybe it's better to leave the jump unit home.
In general this edition is removing a lot of customization and Deathwatch is one of the armies that "suffers most" from this. Not that in 7th it actually had tons of it, but still...
I also just can't get over how ridiculous the idea of adding a single jet pack guy to a squad of footsloggers is. A special weapon guy? A heavy? A melee commando? All that, I get, and in general it makes primaris much less boring. But having one dude floating around with a giant jetpack, keeping pace with guys on foot and trying to not burn them with his jetpack exhaust...what possible tactical use would that have?
Never played the FF Deathwatch RPG? Having a mixed squad with some guys with flight capabilities actually helps a lot when figthing. When you have enemies on high and low ground at the same time, the flying marines can jumpjet and take care of them, not counting different enemy types. On the tabletop sadly all of this gets fluffed away, but in a kill-team game it makes more sense.
Of course, if you're figthing underground or boarding a spaceship, maybe it's better to leave the jump unit home.
In general this edition is removing a lot of customization and Deathwatch is one of the armies that "suffers most" from this. Not that in 7th it actually had tons of it, but still...
Well, you can if the flying guys can leave the rest of the squad to go deal with those enemies. If you're playing an RPG where all players are connected by 5 foot unbreakable chains of adamantium tied around their ankles, having guys with jump packs is far less useful.
What I'm saying is, I'd rather my Deathwatch work like they do in Deathwatch: Overkill, Kill Team, or the FFRPGs. In 7th ed, the terminator squads with their unit sizes starting at 1 were perfect examples of this.
If GW proposes to give me a stratagem identical to the one the custodes Allarus Teminators have, where I can split up my kill team into individual models that act like a unit in and of themselves, I'll be happy as a clam, but if they don't, Deathwatch will continue to be pretty much a failure to translate between skirmish/squad based games (where they act like they should) to a super-clunkified version for the company scale game.
Mixed squads. Reivers provide Terror Troops, Aggressors provide a buff that removes the penalty to assault weapons for advancing and heavy weapons for moving. Inceptors allow you to fall back and still shoot. Hellblasters don't bring a buff, but being able to add plasma to a Primaris Intercessor squad is pretty freakin' sick.
Yawn.
it's amazing how quickly Deathwatch becomes much, MUCH more one-note and dull when you take out individual customization of model wargear.
I also just can't get over how ridiculous the idea of adding a single jet pack guy to a squad of footsloggers is. A special weapon guy? A heavy? A melee commando? All that, I get, and in general it makes primaris much less boring. But having one dude floating around with a giant jetpack, keeping pace with guys on foot and trying to not burn them with his jetpack exhaust...what possible tactical use would that have?
I find it mildly amusing to see these threads full of people who deride competitive players for ruining 40k, yet at the same time, they're more than happy to reap the learnings of a group which is focused on exploiting powerful units.
"I'm not a competitive player, I just take competitive units and crush people in my casual games."
Crimson wrote: I have a terrible suspicion that the DW cannot have other Primaris units than these silly mixed squads...
Could be but, the mixed units seem like they could be decent depending on things like max squad size and stratagems available. Inceptors + aggressors could be a mean anti-infantry force with ok mobility.
Marmatag wrote: I find it mildly amusing to see these threads full of people who deride competitive players for ruining 40k, yet at the same time, they're more than happy to reap the learnings of a group which is focused on exploiting powerful units.
"I'm not a competitive player, I just take competitive units and crush people in my casual games."
I think competitive players as a rule vastly overestimate how hard it was for them to figure out those "learnings".
Mixed squads. Reivers provide Terror Troops, Aggressors provide a buff that removes the penalty to assault weapons for advancing and heavy weapons for moving. Inceptors allow you to fall back and still shoot. Hellblasters don't bring a buff, but being able to add plasma to a Primaris Intercessor squad is pretty freakin' sick.
Yawn.
it's amazing how quickly Deathwatch becomes much, MUCH more one-note and dull when you take out individual customization of model wargear.
I also just can't get over how ridiculous the idea of adding a single jet pack guy to a squad of footsloggers is. A special weapon guy? A heavy? A melee commando? All that, I get, and in general it makes primaris much less boring. But having one dude floating around with a giant jetpack, keeping pace with guys on foot and trying to not burn them with his jetpack exhaust...what possible tactical use would that have?
Did you make this complaint with the regular Deathwatch squads?
the_scotsman wrote: I think competitive players as a rule vastly overestimate how hard it was for them to figure out those "learnings".
Yes. Its not like comparative probability with a d6 system is all that difficult. Although it can be interesting to see people make snap decisions and then turn out completely wrong.
I agree that non-customizable primaris sucks a bit. Deathwatch's only attraction as far as I can see is the "Your dudes" feature. You can customise every character's gear, give him a backstory, and sure he dies like a nameless tactical marine in the first turn, but for at least deployment he was cool.
Not sure it works or can work competitively - but its interesting to a certain mindset.
This is just a bunch of guys in different armour types hanging around together.... for rules. Which feels very gamey.
On the otherhand I might do it because its the way I would run Primaris. They shouldn't have co-opted the old legions.
Crimson wrote: I have a terrible suspicion that the DW cannot have other Primaris units than these silly mixed squads...
Given that you can take vanguards, bikers, and terminators as separate units despite them being included in the normal kill team, I'd say it's a safe assumption you will still be able to take the mono unit Primaris datasheets.
Also, these 'silly' mixed squads are looking pretty interesting to me. Hellblasters that need to suffer 12 wounds before the enemy actually kills anything good and get reroll 1's to wound? Yes, please.
The Aggressor option might open some doors with the heavy and assault variants of the Primaris guns that I might not have considered before but I'd need to go through them all.
Reiver stun grenades before you send in a dedicated melee normal marine kill team could have potential as well.
The inceptor one seems okay, but it's basically like taking a very limited insurance policy out on the squad, much like taking a vanguard in a normal kill team.
5-10 Intercessors putting out 10-20 str 4 AP -3 shots at 12" or AP -2 at 18" also looks tasty depending on how bad the SIA tax is on them. The stalker bolt rifles can get up to AP -4 with Vengeance, though the Heavy 1 makes it not as great an option IMO. Hiwever, if there's a target character Stratagem, a unit of those might make for pretty decent character snipers.
Marmatag wrote: I find it mildly amusing to see these threads full of people who deride competitive players for ruining 40k, yet at the same time, they're more than happy to reap the learnings of a group which is focused on exploiting powerful units.
"I'm not a competitive player, I just take competitive units and crush people in my casual games."
I think competitive players as a rule vastly overestimate how hard it was for them to figure out those "learnings".
Mixed squads. Reivers provide Terror Troops, Aggressors provide a buff that removes the penalty to assault weapons for advancing and heavy weapons for moving. Inceptors allow you to fall back and still shoot. Hellblasters don't bring a buff, but being able to add plasma to a Primaris Intercessor squad is pretty freakin' sick.
Yawn.
it's amazing how quickly Deathwatch becomes much, MUCH more one-note and dull when you take out individual customization of model wargear.
I also just can't get over how ridiculous the idea of adding a single jet pack guy to a squad of footsloggers is. A special weapon guy? A heavy? A melee commando? All that, I get, and in general it makes primaris much less boring. But having one dude floating around with a giant jetpack, keeping pace with guys on foot and trying to not burn them with his jetpack exhaust...what possible tactical use would that have?
Did you make this complaint with the regular Deathwatch squads?
Yeah, even more so when they include a marine biker puttering alongside the squad of footsloggers.
Mixed squads. Reivers provide Terror Troops, Aggressors provide a buff that removes the penalty to assault weapons for advancing and heavy weapons for moving. Inceptors allow you to fall back and still shoot. Hellblasters don't bring a buff, but being able to add plasma to a Primaris Intercessor squad is pretty freakin' sick.
Yawn.
it's amazing how quickly Deathwatch becomes much, MUCH more one-note and dull when you take out individual customization of model wargear.
I also just can't get over how ridiculous the idea of adding a single jet pack guy to a squad of footsloggers is. A special weapon guy? A heavy? A melee commando? All that, I get, and in general it makes primaris much less boring. But having one dude floating around with a giant jetpack, keeping pace with guys on foot and trying to not burn them with his jetpack exhaust...what possible tactical use would that have?
Did you make this complaint with the regular Deathwatch squads?
Yeah, even more so when they include a marine biker puttering alongside the squad of footsloggers.
Then don't model it as such. You have some amount of creative freedom as long as you're consistent.
Disagree pretty strongly, especially after Drukhari just came to town. I haven't lost to primaris-heavy list yet, and that's with the crappy marines primaris followers look down on.
Disagree pretty strongly, especially after Drukhari just came to town. I haven't lost to primaris-heavy list yet, and that's with the crappy marines primaris followers look down on.
Disagree pretty strongly, especially after Drukhari just came to town. I haven't lost to primaris-heavy list yet, and that's with the crappy marines primaris followers look down on.
Yeah I gotta agree with Martel here. Primaris heavy armies are not viable in the competitive sense. They are fine for more mild games, but in a tournament setting or if you are being list tailored against (lol) then yeah it will be a bad day.
I don't usually. I just think mixed kill teams could be better represented by vastly smaller min squad sizes (representing veterans as being less dependent on rigid squad operation) rather than mixed teams forming giant blobbo units that are hindered by individual components as much as they benefit.
My Deathwatch aren't really an army at this point so much as they are one of many factions in my ordo xenos fluffy soup list. I am hoping the new book gives me reasons to want to expand.
Disagree pretty strongly, especially after Drukhari just came to town. I haven't lost to primaris-heavy list yet, and that's with the crappy marines primaris followers look down on.
On this, you and I agree.
Primaris Marines a good army do not make.
On a unit-by-unit basis, single elements maybe be viable or have purpose in support of a core composed of ordinary marines and their equipment. As an entire force? I'd avoid them.
Disagree pretty strongly, especially after Drukhari just came to town. I haven't lost to primaris-heavy list yet, and that's with the crappy marines primaris followers look down on.
On this, you and I agree.
Primaris Marines a good army do not make.
On a unit-by-unit basis, single elements maybe be viable or have purpose in support of a core composed of ordinary marines and their equipment. As an entire force? I'd avoid them.
Sounds more like everyone is arguing about avoiding them outright, no matter what. Only way I can see why the topic switched to this from single Primaris killteams.
The issue seams to be GW are doing the PR hardsell about how epic Primaris DW will be, but with drukari, riptides and etc entering the meta, primaris suck, more expensive primaris still suck and each failed save just cost you even more points.
More points for better damage only matters if you can survive long enough to make a difference.
Primaris are fine and looking to be even better now with this codex allowing mixed units - that is something a lot of people that like Primaris have really wanted. Get some shoulder pads amd you are good to go now.
Primark G wrote: Primaris are fine and looking to be even better now with this codex allowing mixed units - that is something a lot of people that like Primaris have really wanted. Get some shoulder pads amd you are good to go now.
They for sure do look better. Being able to screen your hellblasters and intercessors/reiver being actually killy is a big improvement for primaris. I look forward to trying out the deathwatch rules for them!
Disagree pretty strongly, especially after Drukhari just came to town. I haven't lost to primaris-heavy list yet, and that's with the crappy marines primaris followers look down on.
Just curious, you losing to mini-marines?
I have lost to them more than primaris. Primaris are just too easy, because they bring so little to the table in terms of body count.
Disagree pretty strongly, especially after Drukhari just came to town. I haven't lost to primaris-heavy list yet, and that's with the crappy marines primaris followers look down on.
On this, you and I agree.
Primaris Marines a good army do not make.
On a unit-by-unit basis, single elements maybe be viable or have purpose in support of a core composed of ordinary marines and their equipment. As an entire force? I'd avoid them.
Sounds more like everyone is arguing about avoiding them outright, no matter what. Only way I can see why the topic switched to this from single Primaris killteams.
I don't want to lose faster than normal because of 2 damage weapons. Period. They are everywhere, and only going to get more common. Thank quantum shields.
Primaris are fine and looking to be even better now with this codex allowing mixed units - that is something a lot of people that like Primaris have really wanted. Get some shoulder pads amd you are good to go now.
They for sure do look better. Being able to screen your hellblasters and intercessors/reiver being actually killy is a big improvement for primaris. I look forward to trying out the deathwatch rules for them!
Disagree pretty strongly, especially after Drukhari just came to town. I haven't lost to primaris-heavy list yet, and that's with the crappy marines primaris followers look down on.
Just curious, you losing to mini-marines?
I have lost to them more than primaris. Primaris are just too easy, because they bring so little to the table in terms of body count.
Disagree pretty strongly, especially after Drukhari just came to town. I haven't lost to primaris-heavy list yet, and that's with the crappy marines primaris followers look down on.
On this, you and I agree.
Primaris Marines a good army do not make.
On a unit-by-unit basis, single elements maybe be viable or have purpose in support of a core composed of ordinary marines and their equipment. As an entire force? I'd avoid them.
Sounds more like everyone is arguing about avoiding them outright, no matter what. Only way I can see why the topic switched to this from single Primaris killteams.
I don't want to lose faster than normal because of 2 damage weapons. Period. They are everywhere, and only going to get more common. Thank quantum shields.
I wonder what the solution is to make them viable. 3w? Invulns all around? More minus to hit effects? Triple the cost of all 2 damage weapons? I feel like elite armies with smaller numbers should have a place in this game and it's a pity to see that everybody prefers cheap bodies over everything else.
Though I also think those 2 damage weapons are going to fire at something anyway, so isn't it better that they target troops?
I wonder what the solution is to make them viable. 3w? Invulns all around? Double the cost of all 2 damage weapons? I feel like elite armies with smaller numbers should have a place in this game and it's a pity to see that everybody prefers cheap bodies over everything else.
They really should have been given some sort of FNP like ability at the very least. This would both help with durability and would reflect the fluff off them being hardened veterans better as well! Guessing they did not go with something along those lines because Iron Hands already have such as a Chapter trait, unfortunately.
Disagree pretty strongly, especially after Drukhari just came to town. I haven't lost to primaris-heavy list yet, and that's with the crappy marines primaris followers look down on.
Just curious, you losing to mini-marines?
I have lost to them more than primaris. Primaris are just too easy, because they bring so little to the table in terms of body count.
Disagree pretty strongly, especially after Drukhari just came to town. I haven't lost to primaris-heavy list yet, and that's with the crappy marines primaris followers look down on.
On this, you and I agree.
Primaris Marines a good army do not make.
On a unit-by-unit basis, single elements maybe be viable or have purpose in support of a core composed of ordinary marines and their equipment. As an entire force? I'd avoid them.
Sounds more like everyone is arguing about avoiding them outright, no matter what. Only way I can see why the topic switched to this from single Primaris killteams.
I don't want to lose faster than normal because of 2 damage weapons. Period. They are everywhere, and only going to get more common. Thank quantum shields.
I wonder what the solution is to make them viable. 3w? Invulns all around? More minus to hit effects? Triple the cost of all 2 damage weapons? I feel like elite armies with smaller numbers should have a place in this game and it's a pity to see that everybody prefers cheap bodies over everything else.
Though I also think those 2 damage weapons are going to fire at something anyway, so isn't it better that they target troops?
No, it really isn't Because primaris are wounded on a 3+ or 2+ by said weapons and bigger targets are wounded on a 3+ or 4+ or even 5+ by the same weapons an degrade non-linearly. Of course, people will ignore intercessors until they are the last things left. The units taking it up the ass here are hellblasters, inceptors, and aggressors. No one cares about the other primaris units.
It doesn't help that marine vehicles are pretty awful across the board (yeah, I know ven dread), and do little to draw fire off say, hellblasters. Although the decision between killing 3 hellblasters and knocking 6 wounds off some stupid predator is a pretty easy one anyway, imo.
Cheap bodies dominate because they maximize outgoing firepower and minimize POINT losses to incoming firepower. Oh, and take up real estate better, AND hold objectives better. Make primaris marines cheaper across the board and this will change, because that will reduce the point efficiency of 2 damage weapons. AND increase firepower. They don't need extra rules, they need more bodies to survive 8th ed. Seriously the way the drukhari codex rolls, intercessors could be 13 pts and marines would still be at a disadvantage.
Disagree pretty strongly, especially after Drukhari just came to town. I haven't lost to primaris-heavy list yet, and that's with the crappy marines primaris followers look down on.
Just curious, you losing to mini-marines?
I have lost to them more than primaris. Primaris are just too easy, because they bring so little to the table in terms of body count.
Disagree pretty strongly, especially after Drukhari just came to town. I haven't lost to primaris-heavy list yet, and that's with the crappy marines primaris followers look down on.
On this, you and I agree.
Primaris Marines a good army do not make.
On a unit-by-unit basis, single elements maybe be viable or have purpose in support of a core composed of ordinary marines and their equipment. As an entire force? I'd avoid them.
Sounds more like everyone is arguing about avoiding them outright, no matter what. Only way I can see why the topic switched to this from single Primaris killteams.
I don't want to lose faster than normal because of 2 damage weapons. Period. They are everywhere, and only going to get more common. Thank quantum shields.
I wonder what the solution is to make them viable. 3w? Invulns all around? More minus to hit effects? Triple the cost of all 2 damage weapons? I feel like elite armies with smaller numbers should have a place in this game and it's a pity to see that everybody prefers cheap bodies over everything else.
Though I also think those 2 damage weapons are going to fire at something anyway, so isn't it better that they target troops?
No, it really isn't Because primaris are wounded on a 3+ or 2+ by said weapons and bigger targets are wounded on a 3+ or 4+ or even 5+ by the same weapons an degrade non-linearly. Of course, people will ignore intercessors until they are the last things left. The units taking it up the ass here are hellblasters, inceptors, and aggressors. No one cares about the other primaris units.
Cheap bodies dominate because they maximize outgoing firepower and minimize POINT losses to incoming firepower. Make primaris marines cheaper across the board and this will change, because that will reduce the point efficiency of 2 damage weapons. AND increase firepower. They need extra rules, they need more bodies to survive 8th ed.
Guess that just makes them like everyone else rather than fixing elite, low model armies.
Disagree pretty strongly, especially after Drukhari just came to town. I haven't lost to primaris-heavy list yet, and that's with the crappy marines primaris followers look down on.
Just curious, you losing to mini-marines?
I have lost to them more than primaris. Primaris are just too easy, because they bring so little to the table in terms of body count.
Disagree pretty strongly, especially after Drukhari just came to town. I haven't lost to primaris-heavy list yet, and that's with the crappy marines primaris followers look down on.
On this, you and I agree.
Primaris Marines a good army do not make.
On a unit-by-unit basis, single elements maybe be viable or have purpose in support of a core composed of ordinary marines and their equipment. As an entire force? I'd avoid them.
Sounds more like everyone is arguing about avoiding them outright, no matter what. Only way I can see why the topic switched to this from single Primaris killteams.
I don't want to lose faster than normal because of 2 damage weapons. Period. They are everywhere, and only going to get more common. Thank quantum shields.
I wonder what the solution is to make them viable. 3w? Invulns all around? More minus to hit effects? Triple the cost of all 2 damage weapons? I feel like elite armies with smaller numbers should have a place in this game and it's a pity to see that everybody prefers cheap bodies over everything else.
Though I also think those 2 damage weapons are going to fire at something anyway, so isn't it better that they target troops?
I still rate most primaris options over other options. You know what will almost always out number 2 damage weapons in your games? 1 Damage weapons You need to look at it this way, Intercessors are 5 points more than a tactical marine. That means you are looking at essentially 7 tacticals for every 5 Intercessors. So it takes 2 additional 2 damage wounds to kill off the tactical squad than the Primaris squad. But it takes 3 less 1 damage wounds. FOr D3 damage it is about even as 1/3rd of the time it takes 2 such wounds to kill a single Intercessor. This also assumes you are taking naked tactical squads. Throw in a plasma gun for 13 points and now you are looking at 6 Tacticals for the price of 5 primaris. Throw a combi-weapon and primaris are actually cheaper. That said I would mostly take scouts over intercessors, except maybe one back field camping squad.
While I agree that an all primaris force does not make a good army, that has more to do with their limited number of options, however the units make up some of the better marine units available in the game right now. Aggressors and Helblasters are both great units as part of a larger army, and inceptors are also decent in some forces (though the deepstrike change hurts them a bit). But those units only fill a very niche roll in a force and need other units (usually better to take things that are not marines in this role) to fill the gaps in what they do. So a single DW kill team in a larger imperium force might be reasonably good. An army of kill teams is going to be bad no matter what the make-up.
That is the fix. The only fix. Everything else is rearranging deck chairs on the titanic because of what GW has done with 8.
The Riptide fires *18* damage 2 shots. How did they think primaris was going to be viable?
It doesn't take that many 2 damage shots to rip the heart out of a primaris list. That's why I've never lost to them. No one cares how long your intercessors live, because they're terrible. One SG squad can basically kill an entire army's worth of intercessors. My record is 22.
Because Ravenguard exists,? OR dark angels with a dark shroud?
When only 6 of those 18 shots hit, only 4 wound, and only 2 get past saves (1 if in cover), it looks pretty poor return for your 250 point shooting model. If in an entire game your riptide kills 6-12 models assuming it lives all game that is terrible.
Or BA with the 5+++ banner?
NOw sure in this one case single wound marines are better, but tell that to all the Mortar teams, or lasguns, or poison shots etc that usually target your infantry. The problem is people going primaris only and bringing too few models. Mix them in with other threats, (some of which might also have 2 wounds like Sanguinary guard), and see how big a target they are .
You also act like Plasma inceptors/Helblasters don't nuke Riptides. Maybe not the single riptide that has both 18 shots and a 3++, but even then they do work (DA ones still probably kill it.).
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mean based on your argument
Aggressors fire 72 + 6D6 S4 D1 shots, how did they expect cheap infantry to be viable. (this costs less points than a riptide.)
yeah, I play with it. I already said those threats are better if they come from another codex. But in solo marines sure, Lascannon Devs, are a threat, that those damage 2 guns might also fire at because of range issue, cover etc. Sanguinary guard, Scout bikes, Ravenwing Bikes, Dark Talons, Speeder characters in DA.
At most of them being 2 CP they are very expensive for those strats. IT is an interesting idea, and very fluffy, but the xenos specific fluff might hurt the army. Again though as a small faction they could be interesting, especially in metas dominated by specific xenos factions.
The Riptide fires *18* damage 2 shots. How did they think primaris was going to be viable?
That weapon can't split fire itself.
18 * .584 * .666 * .5 = 3 to 4 dead (less if they're in cover). A 250 point model spent all it's points killing most of one 165 point unit.
And if it does that it needs to CP to get it's invuln up or retreat to cover.
Just to note here, 66% points return on a single round of shooting unbuffed across the board is "make optimized guard gunline players have to change their pants" levels of points return efficiency.
Breng77 wrote: At most of them being 2 CP they are very expensive for those strats. IT is an interesting idea, and very fluffy, but the xenos specific fluff might hurt the army. Again though as a small faction they could be interesting, especially in metas dominated by specific xenos factions.
I am still extremely unconvinced. The problems start with 18 pt models, intercessors, being completely ignorable and most lists have no way to move them effectively. Yes, I suppose you can start with an IG base and soup in primaris, but IG have so much more firepower/pt, I can't understand why anyone would bother.
5 hellblasters with a capt and lt buffing them clear fewer than 4 wounds against a riptide with no 3++ shield up. That's at full strength. You will never get them within 15", and this doesn't take into account savior protocols. Yeah, your primaris are all dead and doing almost nothing in return. What a great use of points that marines are critically short on already.
The Riptide fires *18* damage 2 shots. How did they think primaris was going to be viable?
That weapon can't split fire itself.
18 * .584 * .666 * .5 = 3 to 4 dead (less if they're in cover). A 250 point model spent all it's points killing most of one 165 point unit.
And if it does that it needs to CP to get it's invuln up or retreat to cover.
Just to note here, 66% points return on a single round of shooting unbuffed across the board is "make optimized guard gunline players have to change their pants" levels of points return efficiency.
I wish my 250 pt stuff could take out 165 pts of stuff in one turn. Do you consider that bad?
Or it can just stand at 36" after neutering the hellblasters.
Just to note here, 66% points return on a single round of shooting unbuffed across the board is "make optimized guard gunline players have to change their pants" levels of points return efficiency.
Note that this Riptide is overcharged and also has a marker light on the unit. These are not things without cost.
The damage doesn't spill over. The autocannon get 4 shots, 2.666 hits, 1.777 wounds, of which 0.88 are failed, and that kills 0.88 hellblasters because the wounds aren't mortal. It causes 2.64 wounds, but it only ever kills one model really.
Martel732 wrote: The autocannon kills 0.88 hellblasters and the bolters kill another 0.66 hellblasters. What are you talking about?
AC is 3 damage. 4 * .666 * .666 * .5 * 2 = 1.8
HB was wrong - fixed that.
You're still doubling the numbers here. 1.8 is the number of wounds inflicted, not the number of dead Hellblasters.
Oh damnit. Ok.
So, 41% efficient in that regard, sorry. So the Riptide is a bit more than 50% more effective.
5 Hellblasters at 30" with reroll 1s kill 3.2 of themselves or 65%. Double that in half range. There are certainly units that can be as effective for the proper targets. The Riptide gets the benefit of being awesome against light infantry as well.
Kdash wrote: Wow, those are going to be really annoying to play against at times.
However, it does make you feel like they will not have much to offer against the masses of Guard and chaos.
Well they are the armed wing of the Ordo Xenos, not Ordo malleus or hereticus
I fully accept that 100%. But, the game overall doesn't reflect that. Grey Knights currently suck because they are expensive and specialised. Just looking at the lists breakdown done by the_scotsman for the London GT shows a massive tendency towards Imperium or Chaos lists - if the Deathwatch become too specialised in game to just specific situations against specific armies, then, they will struggle as well when used in the wider game. It also doesn't matter if you prevent 1 blob of 30 orks from charging due to the stratagem, if the one next to it makes it in after instead.
As an ally however, they will be interesting, depending on costs.
I also hate when you have "specialist stuff" that only works against certain factions in general. If you want to build a unit that counters a particular faction, give them generic rules that do so, don't give them specific rules that just "happen" to give them an advantage, but which are also usable against other factions.
A few examples, here's an anti-Eldar stratagem:
Advanced Targeting Overlays (1CP): pick a unit making a shooting attack. That unit ignores all negative to-hit penalties for the remainder of the phase.
or here's one if you want a unit to be "anti-Daemon"
Smiting Blows (2CP): use this stratagem on a unit in the Fight phase. No invulnerable saves may be taken against melee attacks made by this unit until the end of the phase.
here's an anti-ork stratagem designed to help elite units cut down a horde:
Scythe Protocols: Use this stratagem when a unit shoots in the Shooting Phase. For every model slain by this shooting attack, generate another automatic hit by the same weapon that removed the final wound from that model. These hits cannot themselves generate additional hits.
See how these work against their intended targets very well, but aren't totally invalidated when not fighting them?
It's more of an issue when you have just one that only works against one target. I think its fine to have a tailored answer across the board, but it is a bit problematic to leave out the 2 factions that define the vast majority of the game.
the_scotsman wrote: I also hate when you have "specialist stuff" that only works against certain factions in general. If you want to build a unit that counters a particular faction, give them generic rules that do so, don't give them specific rules that just "happen" to give them an advantage, but which are also usable against other factions.
A few examples, here's an anti-Eldar stratagem:
Advanced Targeting Overlays (1CP): pick a unit making a shooting attack. That unit ignores all negative to-hit penalties for the remainder of the phase.
or here's one if you want a unit to be "anti-Daemon"
Smiting Blows (2CP): use this stratagem on a unit in the Fight phase. No invulnerable saves may be taken against melee attacks made by this unit until the end of the phase.
here's an anti-ork stratagem designed to help elite units cut down a horde:
Scythe Protocols: Use this stratagem when a unit shoots in the Shooting Phase. For every model slain by this shooting attack, generate another automatic hit by the same weapon that removed the final wound from that model. These hits cannot themselves generate additional hits.
See how these work against their intended targets very well, but aren't totally invalidated when not fighting them?
I think those are great. I also think they fall into that oft criticized category of standard stratagems. The ones currently are mostly pretty unique and makes the faction feel like it should. And yours, I think, would be overly strong. Imagine taking it to custodes and invalidating invulns with no opposition (even doing that to daemons is brutal).
the_scotsman wrote: I also hate when you have "specialist stuff" that only works against certain factions in general. If you want to build a unit that counters a particular faction, give them generic rules that do so, don't give them specific rules that just "happen" to give them an advantage, but which are also usable against other factions.
A few examples, here's an anti-Eldar stratagem:
Advanced Targeting Overlays (1CP): pick a unit making a shooting attack. That unit ignores all negative to-hit penalties for the remainder of the phase.
or here's one if you want a unit to be "anti-Daemon"
Smiting Blows (2CP): use this stratagem on a unit in the Fight phase. No invulnerable saves may be taken against melee attacks made by this unit until the end of the phase.
here's an anti-ork stratagem designed to help elite units cut down a horde:
Scythe Protocols: Use this stratagem when a unit shoots in the Shooting Phase. For every model slain by this shooting attack, generate another automatic hit by the same weapon that removed the final wound from that model. These hits cannot themselves generate additional hits.
See how these work against their intended targets very well, but aren't totally invalidated when not fighting them?
That "Eldar" one looks way more like it would punish flyers, every -1 to hit army, Tau infiltrators, popping smoke, any psychic powers that provide it, and any stratagems that provide it. At 1CP, that would be ridiculously powerful.
the_scotsman wrote: I also hate when you have "specialist stuff" that only works against certain factions in general. If you want to build a unit that counters a particular faction, give them generic rules that do so, don't give them specific rules that just "happen" to give them an advantage, but which are also usable against other factions.
A few examples, here's an anti-Eldar stratagem:
Advanced Targeting Overlays (1CP): pick a unit making a shooting attack. That unit ignores all negative to-hit penalties for the remainder of the phase.
or here's one if you want a unit to be "anti-Daemon"
Smiting Blows (2CP): use this stratagem on a unit in the Fight phase. No invulnerable saves may be taken against melee attacks made by this unit until the end of the phase.
here's an anti-ork stratagem designed to help elite units cut down a horde:
Scythe Protocols: Use this stratagem when a unit shoots in the Shooting Phase. For every model slain by this shooting attack, generate another automatic hit by the same weapon that removed the final wound from that model. These hits cannot themselves generate additional hits.
See how these work against their intended targets very well, but aren't totally invalidated when not fighting them?
That "Eldar" one looks way more like it would punish flyers, every -1 to hit army, Tau infiltrators, popping smoke, any psychic powers that provide it, and any stratagems that provide it. At 1CP, that would be ridiculously powerful.
It also is good against jetbikes, especially Shining Spears.
the_scotsman wrote: I also hate when you have "specialist stuff" that only works against certain factions in general. If you want to build a unit that counters a particular faction, give them generic rules that do so, don't give them specific rules that just "happen" to give them an advantage, but which are also usable against other factions.
A few examples, here's an anti-Eldar stratagem:
Advanced Targeting Overlays (1CP): pick a unit making a shooting attack. That unit ignores all negative to-hit penalties for the remainder of the phase.
or here's one if you want a unit to be "anti-Daemon"
Smiting Blows (2CP): use this stratagem on a unit in the Fight phase. No invulnerable saves may be taken against melee attacks made by this unit until the end of the phase.
here's an anti-ork stratagem designed to help elite units cut down a horde:
Scythe Protocols: Use this stratagem when a unit shoots in the Shooting Phase. For every model slain by this shooting attack, generate another automatic hit by the same weapon that removed the final wound from that model. These hits cannot themselves generate additional hits.
See how these work against their intended targets very well, but aren't totally invalidated when not fighting them?
That "Eldar" one looks way more like it would punish flyers, every -1 to hit army, Tau infiltrators, popping smoke, any psychic powers that provide it, and any stratagems that provide it. At 1CP, that would be ridiculously powerful.
Yeah, if you had this on a long range, all heavy weapon unit like say Eldar Dark Reapers a stratagem like this would be ABSURDLY broken for 1cp, but in the context of much shorter ranged, less gunliney armies like Deathwatch you might be able to make it balanced.
this having more broad uses is the point though. Don't make it so half their stratagems go away when not fighting a particular enemy.
Breng77 wrote: At most of them being 2 CP they are very expensive for those strats. IT is an interesting idea, and very fluffy, but the xenos specific fluff might hurt the army. Again though as a small faction they could be interesting, especially in metas dominated by specific xenos factions.
I am still extremely unconvinced. The problems start with 18 pt models, intercessors, being completely ignorable and most lists have no way to move them effectively. Yes, I suppose you can start with an IG base and soup in primaris, but IG have so much more firepower/pt, I can't understand why anyone would bother.
5 hellblasters with a capt and lt buffing them clear fewer than 4 wounds against a riptide with no 3++ shield up. That's at full strength. You will never get them within 15", and this doesn't take into account savior protocols. Yeah, your primaris are all dead and doing almost nothing in return. What a great use of points that marines are critically short on already.
6 Bolter Aggressors is 222 points. With no support does 10.33 wounds on average to MEQ (93 shots on average with double shoot, *2/3*.5*1/3), so 5 dead inceptors/helbasters, or 10 Tacticals. Which is better than your riptide is doing.
6 plasma inceptors against a riptide with no 3++ kill it on average doing 14 damage (24 shots on average * 2/3 * 2/3 *2/3 = 7.111 wounds at 2 damage each) Against 3++ they do 3.56 wounds, so average of 7 Damage. That is not even including if they are DA and use the +1 damage strat, Which puts them at 10.67 damage against a 3++ save. Again no re-rolls which they are likely to have with a captain at least if not a LT. Remember Riptides won't be at 14 wounds if they overcharge so 10 damage neuters them between dimished stats and no super charging.
10 Ravenguard Helblasters deploy with 15", do 6 damage against 3++ or 12 against a 5++. Again without re-rolls. IF I go first that is a dead riptide.
And again if I'm raven guard or DA and you are shooting me at -1 to hit you aren't killing 3 or 4 models you are killing 2. So your 250 point model is killing 70ish points....super good right.
It is looking like DW is what Imperial players need to counter all these tricksy xenos armies and I am sure there is even more good stuff to find out about for the new codex.
Martel732 wrote: Raven guard is good. Primaris is not. Everything listed off relies on raven guard. The rest of the chapters can get bent, I guess.
That's most of the books though. There's one or two 'competitive' sub factions and the others are mostly there for narrative/open. Kraken/kronos for nids, Sautekh/mephrit Necrons, Cadian/catachan guard, stygies/Mars Admech. It's hard enough getting the factions on par with each other, expecting every sub faction to be equally good is a level of expectations I don't think any games company could meet.
Martel732 wrote: Raven guard is good. Primaris is not. Everything listed off relies on raven guard. The rest of the chapters can get bent, I guess.
Deepstriking plasma inceptors are better in DA, BA can do ok with their FNP banner. But yes competitively the rest of the Chapter tactics can get bent, that is how the game works right now. Good Chapters get competitive play, bad ones don't this isn't new, or specific to primaris. You know what is better in Imperial fists than Ravenguard, not much maybe bolter inceptors, Iron hands, nothing, Ultra Marines - maybe with Guiliman. White Scars - nothing. You cannot say x sucks and then refuse to use it the only way it works.
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Primark G wrote: Raven Guard has not won one major event - that is not good.
Neither has anything other than Chaos, Eldar, Nids or Imperial Soup. Not arguing they are the best list out there but simply that they can be decent. I'll go in right now that unless something changes you won't see a non-allied imperial army win any major event.
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Galas wrote: "If it doesn't won a major even, it is not good"
Dakkadakka in a nutshell.
Yup,
"x is terrible."
"not if you do y"
"but I don't want to do y so it's terrible!"
Also Dakka Dakka.
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Primark G wrote: Raven Guard has not won one major event - that is not good.
What also hasn't won a major event....99.999999% of players. If you are a good player you will win with Ravenguard, you won't win a Major with them unless you are a great player.
I said raven guard was good. So of course that can't be true. Even though it's objectively the best chapter tactic.
We'll have to agree to disagree on primaris. Number crunching aside, they just don't play well on the table, imo. We can blame BA chapter tactics in my case, maybe. Maybe not. I was able to beat the Ravenguard primaris players pretty handily. But that was pre FAQ nerf. Maybe some more data will roll in or some locals will prove me wrong. We'll see. I hope they make primaris better b/c I like the concept and the models.
TO me there is a difference between primaris players and primaris units. I take usually 1 or 2 Primaris units in a larger army. For instance at my last 2k event I ran with 1 5 man Aggressor squad and a 5 man Intercessor squad for camping objectives, which they are good at because they are annoying to remove unless you are spending guns usually better used at other things other than those I run scouts for troops, and think they are much better than Intercessors in general, just not at objective camping in your own deployment zone. So all told I spent 275 points on Primaris units. My DA army (prior to FAQ) had 6 Plasma inceptors and that was it for primaris about 350 points. Some of my older lists were Azzy Helblaster DA, and a Helblaster infiltrating Raven guard. In both cases I was still running at most 500-600 points of Primaris.
SO if you are facing all primaris Ravenguard, then yeah they are middling. But a couple of squads backed by other stuff is pretty powerful. My current list uses Aggressors as I said, but most of my army is Sisters, (~500 points marines, 1500 points sisters)
Though illegal Gonyos BA featuring a large number of Aggressors and allied guard did well. With the more command points now that list could be made legal using the chapter master strat (BA do have that right) or just using a captain, which would be slightly worse but still good. 5+++ on T5 2 wound models is annoying to deal with.
People get way to caught up in the "all primaris" army, instead of treating them like any other unit. An all primaris army is bad, just like All bikes, all terminators, or basically any other super restrictive theme would be. If I had to rank Primaris options
All Hq options F - no reason to ever run these over regular HQ options, they offer very little in trade for worse wargear.
Aggressors - B+/A- chapter dependent, but they put out a huge amount of fire power, are serviceable in Close combat, and surprisingly fast.
Inceptors - B a solid choice, but a bit pricey, the Deepstrike FAQ brings them down in value, because they will either need to start on table, or wait until turn 2. Prior to the FAQ they were an A/A+ in a Dark Angels army, now not quite as good. They are decent in the bolter format, but are outshone by Aggressors in that role. Work well as Imperial fists if you wanted to run IFs.
Helblasters - B, really chapter specific, but good damage output, and AP -4 is very good against some targets. Don't really see the value as much outside of DA or Ravenguard.
Intercessors - C/C+ good objective camping units, ok guns, but nothing amazing here.
Reivers - Haven't tried them, I want to like them, but their grenade is too short in range. They may have some milage in ravenguard as a turn 1 assault threat to screens, but even that is probably a stretch when other options are considered at comparable cost. D+/C-
Vehicles - F Too expensive, When Azzy gave invuls to vehicles I though they could be OK but sans that they die to easy. Then again I'm against taking vehicles in marine armies for the most part with few exceptions. Having no Chapter tactic hurts, and they tend to be pricey.
@ Breng22 - it is a waste of time to argue with him.
About RG - their CT should help them get stuck into melee quick but IMO right now SM do not have any rock solid assault units. The -1 to hit is good but does not work for vehicles. Salamanders and Smurfs have the best CTs since they enhance their shooting which is what SM in general are best at doing. Also Smurfs have won some majors - you can discount it but it is there.
Primark G wrote: @ Breng22 - it is a waste of time to argue with him.
About RG - their CT should help them get stuck into melee quick but IMO right now SM do not have any rock solid assault units. The -1 to hit is good but does not work for vehicles. Salamanders and Smurfs have the best CTs since they enhance their shooting which is what SM in general are best at doing. Also Smurfs have won some majors - you can discount it but it is there.
Looking over the lists, I think the reason Ultramarines are strong isn't (entirely at least) about the chapter tactic at all. It's about the characters - primarily Robute - that they have access to that other chapters don't get. In a vacuum, Raven Guard and Salamanders are the best chapter tactics, Salamanders for the tactic, raven guard primarily for the stratagem.
@Primark G - I disagree with that simply because no matter how much you try to buff shooting (Smurfs tactics don't buff it at all Rowboat does) guard, eldar, and Tau do it better. So without -1 to hit you get smoked. Also Sallies trait is largely replicated by characters.
Smurfs won 1 major I think and did ok with flyer spam early because of Rowboat + undercosted flyers, which no longer exist.
RGCT keeps them safe while they shoot, and their strat can put some of the better marine shooting units into range to be effective.
The only reason not to take RG is if you want to run Rowboat. Those are the only to Codex chapters to have done anything at all in tournies. I will admit that Marines have only won as ultras, but I don't think with all the points increases to Rowboat and Flyers make that viable any longer.
Well SM as a pure army is noncompetitive now but they can be a good ally. As you said the character buffs are pretty much universal. I would love to see RG have the same level of success but I don't think it will happen - always sounds good though.
Primark G wrote: Yeah Guilliman is why they won a lot of events but basically having the keyword Fly is pretty amazing.
Is it?
I mean I am still waiting on the game where it ever meaningfully comes up.
Guess it's really dependant on how much people assault your gunlines and how much of if they manage to tie up. Happened a couple of times to get my hellblaster charged, survived and would have loved to disengage and still shoot with them, same with a couple of dreads. But that was basically a mistake on my part with deployment and with screening, spacing, deepstriking, that kind of things. So in a way, the smurf tactics is nice to compensate errors on your part. It permits gunlines to recover whatever firepower is tied up in close combat. Once you get "better" it comes into play generally less.
I just wanted to bring up how fun Dragonfire rounds will be with Bolt Rifles and the Stalker variant. It would make them not a horrible choice for the most part.
Martel732 wrote: BA do not have chapter master strat. There is only one: Dante.
BA inceptors can use the Upon Wings of Fire stratagem to redeploy which is kinda cool.
BA reivers are extra punchy, and the carbines are pretty nice. The bat-grapples got hurt by the rulebook FAQ, though.
I want to get some aggressors, but I don't know how BA would use them.
Yeah the inceptor thing could be kind of nice, but they are so fast it might not be needed, but I guess you could start a squad out of LOS turn 1 and then move them with it into range of a target.
For BA reivers seemed ok, but I always come back to why not Death Company? They basically fill similar roles for similar cost. Outside of Ravenguard, my issue with Reivers is that their big advantage (grenades) works at odds with the best way to get them there (deepstrike)
For BA with Aggressors I think you would just deploy probably 2 larger squads around the relic banner, in cover to start and then just run them up the table with character support.
A lot of my BA thoughts right now are centered around scouts and turn 1 assaults using larger scout squads and Death Company to clear chaff, followed up by Sanguinary guard. . Probably allied in with guard for artillery support. If I was trying for pure marines I was looking at replacing that guard element with some Raven guard support for more durability in the back field, and extra turn 1 shooting support
It's the kinda nostalgia that makes you want to rage punt a puppy in to traffic 
What? Did you think I'd quit cold turkey? I don't have a problem. I could quit if I wanted to, I just don't want to. 
