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It's a roll off but with a D3 against a D6 if the wyches unit has a model with shardnet & impaler which only costs 5 points. A succubus can have it as well.

Please take this Eldar and Tau related discussion elsewhere, unless it is about how the Deathwatch can best kill them.

All out of deployment zone deployment...including scout moves - serve the same function. ESP if you are building your list around it. For example a tau list just needs deep strikers pushed back

Scouts are amongst the absolute best out of deployment zone units because they deploy BEFORE almost every other such unit. They are able to block Scout Sentinels, Pathfinders, Alpha Legion/Raven Guard infiltrators, etc. They provide a buffer zone for your own deepstrikers and prevent the opponent from sneaking up on you. They are reasonably offensive and can even be used to tie up shooty things in close-combat if they get first turn.
You not seeing how they are one of the strongest troop choices in the game explains a lot about your understanding and attitude...

 Blackie wrote:
It's a roll off but with a D3 against a D6 if the wyches unit has a model with shardnet & impaler which only costs 5 points. A succubus can have it as well.

Works out to an 80% chance the wyches win, like I said.

red grief wyches popping out of a transport move 14", advance, then charge with a reroll. There's a pretty good motivation to want to put down infiltrators in front of them, because it's not super inconceivable that they could cross no man's land and get to a screen. And while Drukhari don't have infiltrators, it's a soup game, Eldar do, and eldar also have fantastically high value HQ units. Jinx spiritseer and Doom/Executioner bike farseer plus three units of rangers is a really solid detachment.

Can we please keep the discussion focused on the new Deathwatch? Thanks. This is really not the place to discuss xenos units preventing fallback.

A much better topic when you opt to ignore the repeat offenders of off-topic conversations.
I think there will be some nice options with DW but will probably need to ally with some Guard etc for more competitive builds.

I'm not sure what the point of the topic is in all honesty?

Can someone say what the current meta is with absolute clarity? I don't think so. It's still in the development state and there haven't been many big tournaments since the FAQ (that I know of anyway).

The FAQ has really shaken things up, big time. I predict it'll take a lot longer than previously for a stable meta to form, because the rule of 3 limits spamming the best units. Players have to take other units that they previously wouldn't consider. That changes the meta. The meta then reacts and changes again. This is all happening as the DW, Harlies and Knight codex is being released.

TLDR - the meta is about as unsettled as it can be right now, predicting what a codex will do to the meta before it's released is a fool's errand.

 bullyboy wrote:
A much better topic when you opt to ignore the repeat offenders of off-topic conversations.
I think there will be some nice options with DW but will probably need to ally with some Guard etc for more competitive builds.

That said, the bump with the Battalion made needing Guard allies less a thing. Not saying they won't be dependent (all the Imperial are, really), but it helps a little bit at least.

Good god, reading the last three pages was hilarious. I never thought I'd ever see anyone say Scouts were trash. Both of the marine armies that beat me at LVO used them to cockblock my scout sentinels and Ratlings, making 200+ points of my army lose most of their value before the game even started. If you can't see how good that is because you're so focused in on the mathhammer, then no wonder youre so frustrated with 8th.

For sure scouts are one of the best things in the codex.

RogueApiary wrote:
Good god, reading the last three pages was hilarious. I never thought I'd ever see anyone say Scouts were trash. Both of the marine armies that beat me at LVO used them to cockblock my scout sentinels and Ratlings, making 200+ points of my army lose most of their value before the game even started. If you can't see how good that is because you're so focused in on the mathhammer, then no wonder youre so frustrated with 8th.

Scouts are very good mechanically, but like most marine units, simply cost too much to be considered good or great imo. A one turn cockblock doesn't matter when you are just going to table the marines anyway.

All the best Imperial players use them so I have to say “Think again.” Thanks for reading.

Just because they use them, doesn't make them good/great. It makes them necessary due to their unique mechanic. I've actually stopped using them for a bit to see how that works. I'm tired of paying 55 pts for units that just die without accomplishing anything.

Martel732 wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:
Good god, reading the last three pages was hilarious. I never thought I'd ever see anyone say Scouts were trash. Both of the marine armies that beat me at LVO used them to cockblock my scout sentinels and Ratlings, making 200+ points of my army lose most of their value before the game even started. If you can't see how good that is because you're so focused in on the mathhammer, then no wonder youre so frustrated with 8th.

Scouts are very good mechanically, but like most marine units, simply cost too much to be considered good or great imo. A one turn cockblock doesn't matter when you are just going to table the marines anyway.

Evidently he didn't do that, given that the sentence here started with "both marine armies that beat me at LVO".

Martel you do what you gotta do bro. I know you are trying really hard.

Glad deathwatch is getting special ammo but I wish they would also give it back to Sternguard. Having that flexibility made Sternguard awesome but now they just have +1 bolters which is just lame. In particular combi weapon Sternguard got the shaft due to the bolter part being a bog standard bolter.

They will receive a load of upgrade kits for Primaris marines along with some specially re-boxed set that contain them already.

In reality, they will do what they should have done with Marines and allow a Primaris squad to add a bit of variety to their guns - then they'll knock up the points so high that you may as well just take Custodes.

What if DW get a reasonably pointed transport for Primaris? I see a lot of gloom and doom - I think we would have heard the same about Custodes but GW kept it hush hush.

the_scotsman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:
Good god, reading the last three pages was hilarious. I never thought I'd ever see anyone say Scouts were trash. Both of the marine armies that beat me at LVO used them to cockblock my scout sentinels and Ratlings, making 200+ points of my army lose most of their value before the game even started. If you can't see how good that is because you're so focused in on the mathhammer, then no wonder youre so frustrated with 8th.

Scouts are very good mechanically, but like most marine units, simply cost too much to be considered good or great imo. A one turn cockblock doesn't matter when you are just going to table the marines anyway.

Evidently he didn't do that, given that the sentence here started with "both marine armies that beat me at LVO".

Exactly. I did almost table both of them, but having center of board control all the way to round three/four gave them the point lead they needed to win. Both players also had a lot of solid anti infantry to stop me from contesting objectives.

The RG player used the space his scouts gave him to SFTS 6 Aggressors into ruins in the board center and proceeded to delete my entire front line of infantry and forced me to hold my other infantry in my deployment zone until they were cleared.

The DA player was Phil the Glacial Geek (great guy btw), and he also used his scouts to maintain center board control as well as using the Dark Shroud to keep a lot of his army relatively safe the first two turns. He jammed a Dark Talon (might have even been two of them but I can't recall) into my lines turn 1 and again, deleted my forward most infantry units to prevent me from contesting the center.

Edit* the main firepower portion of my list was 3 Basilisks, 2 Manticores, a LRBT, LR punisher, and an LR Annihilator, as well as 8 mortars.

That's how my "victories" go vs guard, too. IG shouldn'g be nearly tabling or tabling every game like this.

Why not that seems to be most games in general. By turn 5 most of my games have at least one (if not both) players nearly tabled.

Breng77 wrote:
Why not that seems to be most games in general. By turn 5 most of my games have at least one (if not both) players nearly tabled.

Yeah. I've certainly tabled Guard myself on several occasions, and I have seen Guard tabled by marines plenty of times (post-FAQ that's definitely happening less, but there were certainly plenty of ways to remove 2000 points of guard from the table lickity-split with alpha bezerkers+oblits and blood angels)

It takes some careful mission planning and terrain setups to avoid tabling being a serious possibility in most games. Early 8th definitely swung the pendulum heavily in favor of model removal after the "I shot 600 shots and removed 2 necrons!" "Ok now I jink, that's a 3+ for me because shrouded, and I re-roll it" "and now I roll grimoire - oop, no one, guess my army is invincible for the turn" frustrations of competitive 7th ed.

And just like how if you were playing uncompetitive 7th ed hyper-durability wasn't as much an issue, if you're playing uncompetitive 8th ed hyper-killiness isn't as much an issue.

New post on WC regarding Primaris Kill Teams

Mixed squads. Reivers provide Terror Troops, Aggressors provide a buff that removes the penalty to assault weapons for advancing and heavy weapons for moving. Inceptors allow you to fall back and still shoot. Hellblasters don't bring a buff, but being able to add plasma to a Primaris Intercessor squad is pretty freakin' sick.

That's great, but they are still too expensive on a model by model basis. Too many cheap multi-damage weapons, too much cheap rend. Intercessors likely still dead weight. Expensive dead weight.

Lemondish wrote:
New post on WC regarding Primaris Kill Teams

Mixed squads. Reivers provide Terror Troops, Aggressors provide a buff that removes the penalty to assault weapons for advancing and heavy weapons for moving. Inceptors allow you to fall back and still shoot. Hellblasters don't bring a buff, but being able to add plasma to a Primaris Intercessor squad is pretty freakin' sick.

Yawn.

it's amazing how quickly Deathwatch becomes much, MUCH more one-note and dull when you take out individual customization of model wargear.

I also just can't get over how ridiculous the idea of adding a single jet pack guy to a squad of footsloggers is. A special weapon guy? A heavy? A melee commando? All that, I get, and in general it makes primaris much less boring. But having one dude floating around with a giant jetpack, keeping pace with guys on foot and trying to not burn them with his jetpack exhaust...what possible tactical use would that have?

the_scotsman wrote:

I also just can't get over how ridiculous the idea of adding a single jet pack guy to a squad of footsloggers is. A special weapon guy? A heavy? A melee commando? All that, I get, and in general it makes primaris much less boring. But having one dude floating around with a giant jetpack, keeping pace with guys on foot and trying to not burn them with his jetpack exhaust...what possible tactical use would that have?

Well, since he flies above the jet wash isn't going to be a huge issue. And the tactical use is he does something like jet wash the CC opponents allowing his squad to act like they have fly.

I think it's pretty damn cool.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

I also just can't get over how ridiculous the idea of adding a single jet pack guy to a squad of footsloggers is. A special weapon guy? A heavy? A melee commando? All that, I get, and in general it makes primaris much less boring. But having one dude floating around with a giant jetpack, keeping pace with guys on foot and trying to not burn them with his jetpack exhaust...what possible tactical use would that have?

Well, since he flies above the jet wash isn't going to be a huge issue. And the tactical use is he does something like jet wash the CC opponents allowing his squad to act like they have fly.

I think it's pretty damn cool.

Yeah, you can fluff it I guess. Still seems like a Pure Game Thing to me. I'd much rather my team of elite commando operatives weren't LESS flexible than individual units composed of the same models, but that could be just me.

side note: does it look like they're just using the basic deathwatch upgrade frame on these primaris units to swap the shoulderpad? would the units from Dark Imperium be compatible with that, or are they all monopose with the shoulderpads sculpted on?

the_scotsman wrote:

side note: does it look like they're just using the basic deathwatch upgrade frame on these primaris units to swap the shoulderpad? would the units from Dark Imperium be compatible with that, or are they all monopose with the shoulderpads sculpted on?

The latter :(

the_scotsman wrote:


Yeah, you can fluff it I guess. Still seems like a Pure Game Thing to me. I'd much rather my team of elite commando operatives weren't LESS flexible than individual units composed of the same models, but that could be just me.

I'm having a hard time understanding why you think they're less flexible. Sure they can't all fly, but the can fall back like fly and move heavies without penalty. You can take guns to places you would normally never take them and minimize the risk of being caught in CC.

the_scotsman wrote:

I also just can't get over how ridiculous the idea of adding a single jet pack guy to a squad of footsloggers is. A special weapon guy? A heavy? A melee commando? All that, I get, and in general it makes primaris much less boring. But having one dude floating around with a giant jetpack, keeping pace with guys on foot and trying to not burn them with his jetpack exhaust...what possible tactical use would that have?

Never played the FF Deathwatch RPG? Having a mixed squad with some guys with flight capabilities actually helps a lot when figthing. When you have enemies on high and low ground at the same time, the flying marines can jumpjet and take care of them, not counting different enemy types. On the tabletop sadly all of this gets fluffed away, but in a kill-team game it makes more sense. That's the sadness of an army like Deathwatch. It's not made for all out war, it can't shine out. It will always feel forced. It needs kill-team rules or just straight RPG.
Of course, if you're figthing underground or boarding a spaceship, maybe it's better to leave the jump unit home.

In general this edition is removing a lot of customization and Deathwatch is one of the armies that "suffers most" from this. Not that in 7th it actually had tons of it, but still...