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Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
They already are viable.

Disagree pretty strongly, especially after Drukhari just came to town. I haven't lost to primaris-heavy list yet, and that's with the crappy marines primaris followers look down on.

Just curious, you losing to mini-marines?

I have lost to them more than primaris. Primaris are just too easy, because they bring so little to the table in terms of body count.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lemondish wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
They already are viable.

Disagree pretty strongly, especially after Drukhari just came to town. I haven't lost to primaris-heavy list yet, and that's with the crappy marines primaris followers look down on.

On this, you and I agree.

Primaris Marines a good army do not make.

On a unit-by-unit basis, single elements maybe be viable or have purpose in support of a core composed of ordinary marines and their equipment. As an entire force? I'd avoid them.

Sounds more like everyone is arguing about avoiding them outright, no matter what. Only way I can see why the topic switched to this from single Primaris killteams.

I don't want to lose faster than normal because of 2 damage weapons. Period. They are everywhere, and only going to get more common. Thank quantum shields.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Primark G wrote:

Primaris are fine and looking to be even better now with this codex allowing mixed units - that is something a lot of people that like Primaris have really wanted. Get some shoulder pads amd you are good to go now.

They for sure do look better. Being able to screen your hellblasters and intercessors/reiver being actually killy is a big improvement for primaris. I look forward to trying out the deathwatch rules for them!

Cool! I hope you really enjoy them. /thumbsup

Martel732 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
They already are viable.

Disagree pretty strongly, especially after Drukhari just came to town. I haven't lost to primaris-heavy list yet, and that's with the crappy marines primaris followers look down on.

Just curious, you losing to mini-marines?

I have lost to them more than primaris. Primaris are just too easy, because they bring so little to the table in terms of body count.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lemondish wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
They already are viable.

Disagree pretty strongly, especially after Drukhari just came to town. I haven't lost to primaris-heavy list yet, and that's with the crappy marines primaris followers look down on.

On this, you and I agree.

Primaris Marines a good army do not make.

On a unit-by-unit basis, single elements maybe be viable or have purpose in support of a core composed of ordinary marines and their equipment. As an entire force? I'd avoid them.

Sounds more like everyone is arguing about avoiding them outright, no matter what. Only way I can see why the topic switched to this from single Primaris killteams.

I don't want to lose faster than normal because of 2 damage weapons. Period. They are everywhere, and only going to get more common. Thank quantum shields.

I wonder what the solution is to make them viable. 3w? Invulns all around? More minus to hit effects? Triple the cost of all 2 damage weapons? I feel like elite armies with smaller numbers should have a place in this game and it's a pity to see that everybody prefers cheap bodies over everything else.

Though I also think those 2 damage weapons are going to fire at something anyway, so isn't it better that they target troops?

Lemondish wrote:

I wonder what the solution is to make them viable. 3w? Invulns all around? Double the cost of all 2 damage weapons? I feel like elite armies with smaller numbers should have a place in this game and it's a pity to see that everybody prefers cheap bodies over everything else.

They really should have been given some sort of FNP like ability at the very least. This would both help with durability and would reflect the fluff off them being hardened veterans better as well! Guessing they did not go with something along those lines because Iron Hands already have such as a Chapter trait, unfortunately.

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
They already are viable.

Disagree pretty strongly, especially after Drukhari just came to town. I haven't lost to primaris-heavy list yet, and that's with the crappy marines primaris followers look down on.

Just curious, you losing to mini-marines?

I have lost to them more than primaris. Primaris are just too easy, because they bring so little to the table in terms of body count.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lemondish wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
They already are viable.

Disagree pretty strongly, especially after Drukhari just came to town. I haven't lost to primaris-heavy list yet, and that's with the crappy marines primaris followers look down on.

On this, you and I agree.

Primaris Marines a good army do not make.

On a unit-by-unit basis, single elements maybe be viable or have purpose in support of a core composed of ordinary marines and their equipment. As an entire force? I'd avoid them.

Sounds more like everyone is arguing about avoiding them outright, no matter what. Only way I can see why the topic switched to this from single Primaris killteams.

I don't want to lose faster than normal because of 2 damage weapons. Period. They are everywhere, and only going to get more common. Thank quantum shields.

I wonder what the solution is to make them viable. 3w? Invulns all around? More minus to hit effects? Triple the cost of all 2 damage weapons? I feel like elite armies with smaller numbers should have a place in this game and it's a pity to see that everybody prefers cheap bodies over everything else.

Though I also think those 2 damage weapons are going to fire at something anyway, so isn't it better that they target troops?

No, it really isn't Because primaris are wounded on a 3+ or 2+ by said weapons and bigger targets are wounded on a 3+ or 4+ or even 5+ by the same weapons an degrade non-linearly. Of course, people will ignore intercessors until they are the last things left. The units taking it up the ass here are hellblasters, inceptors, and aggressors. No one cares about the other primaris units.

It doesn't help that marine vehicles are pretty awful across the board (yeah, I know ven dread), and do little to draw fire off say, hellblasters. Although the decision between killing 3 hellblasters and knocking 6 wounds off some stupid predator is a pretty easy one anyway, imo.

Cheap bodies dominate because they maximize outgoing firepower and minimize POINT losses to incoming firepower. Oh, and take up real estate better, AND hold objectives better. Make primaris marines cheaper across the board and this will change, because that will reduce the point efficiency of 2 damage weapons. AND increase firepower. They don't need extra rules, they need more bodies to survive 8th ed. Seriously the way the drukhari codex rolls, intercessors could be 13 pts and marines would still be at a disadvantage.

Martel732 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
They already are viable.

Disagree pretty strongly, especially after Drukhari just came to town. I haven't lost to primaris-heavy list yet, and that's with the crappy marines primaris followers look down on.

Just curious, you losing to mini-marines?

I have lost to them more than primaris. Primaris are just too easy, because they bring so little to the table in terms of body count.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lemondish wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
They already are viable.

Disagree pretty strongly, especially after Drukhari just came to town. I haven't lost to primaris-heavy list yet, and that's with the crappy marines primaris followers look down on.

On this, you and I agree.

Primaris Marines a good army do not make.

On a unit-by-unit basis, single elements maybe be viable or have purpose in support of a core composed of ordinary marines and their equipment. As an entire force? I'd avoid them.

Sounds more like everyone is arguing about avoiding them outright, no matter what. Only way I can see why the topic switched to this from single Primaris killteams.

I don't want to lose faster than normal because of 2 damage weapons. Period. They are everywhere, and only going to get more common. Thank quantum shields.

I wonder what the solution is to make them viable. 3w? Invulns all around? More minus to hit effects? Triple the cost of all 2 damage weapons? I feel like elite armies with smaller numbers should have a place in this game and it's a pity to see that everybody prefers cheap bodies over everything else.

Though I also think those 2 damage weapons are going to fire at something anyway, so isn't it better that they target troops?

No, it really isn't Because primaris are wounded on a 3+ or 2+ by said weapons and bigger targets are wounded on a 3+ or 4+ or even 5+ by the same weapons an degrade non-linearly. Of course, people will ignore intercessors until they are the last things left. The units taking it up the ass here are hellblasters, inceptors, and aggressors. No one cares about the other primaris units.

Cheap bodies dominate because they maximize outgoing firepower and minimize POINT losses to incoming firepower. Make primaris marines cheaper across the board and this will change, because that will reduce the point efficiency of 2 damage weapons. AND increase firepower. They need extra rules, they need more bodies to survive 8th ed.

Guess that just makes them like everyone else rather than fixing elite, low model armies.

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
They already are viable.

Disagree pretty strongly, especially after Drukhari just came to town. I haven't lost to primaris-heavy list yet, and that's with the crappy marines primaris followers look down on.

Just curious, you losing to mini-marines?

I have lost to them more than primaris. Primaris are just too easy, because they bring so little to the table in terms of body count.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lemondish wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
They already are viable.

Disagree pretty strongly, especially after Drukhari just came to town. I haven't lost to primaris-heavy list yet, and that's with the crappy marines primaris followers look down on.

On this, you and I agree.

Primaris Marines a good army do not make.

On a unit-by-unit basis, single elements maybe be viable or have purpose in support of a core composed of ordinary marines and their equipment. As an entire force? I'd avoid them.

Sounds more like everyone is arguing about avoiding them outright, no matter what. Only way I can see why the topic switched to this from single Primaris killteams.

I don't want to lose faster than normal because of 2 damage weapons. Period. They are everywhere, and only going to get more common. Thank quantum shields.

I wonder what the solution is to make them viable. 3w? Invulns all around? More minus to hit effects? Triple the cost of all 2 damage weapons? I feel like elite armies with smaller numbers should have a place in this game and it's a pity to see that everybody prefers cheap bodies over everything else.

Though I also think those 2 damage weapons are going to fire at something anyway, so isn't it better that they target troops?

I still rate most primaris options over other options. You know what will almost always out number 2 damage weapons in your games? 1 Damage weapons You need to look at it this way, Intercessors are 5 points more than a tactical marine. That means you are looking at essentially 7 tacticals for every 5 Intercessors. So it takes 2 additional 2 damage wounds to kill off the tactical squad than the Primaris squad. But it takes 3 less 1 damage wounds. FOr D3 damage it is about even as 1/3rd of the time it takes 2 such wounds to kill a single Intercessor. This also assumes you are taking naked tactical squads. Throw in a plasma gun for 13 points and now you are looking at 6 Tacticals for the price of 5 primaris. Throw a combi-weapon and primaris are actually cheaper. That said I would mostly take scouts over intercessors, except maybe one back field camping squad.

While I agree that an all primaris force does not make a good army, that has more to do with their limited number of options, however the units make up some of the better marine units available in the game right now. Aggressors and Helblasters are both great units as part of a larger army, and inceptors are also decent in some forces (though the deepstrike change hurts them a bit). But those units only fill a very niche roll in a force and need other units (usually better to take things that are not marines in this role) to fill the gaps in what they do. So a single DW kill team in a larger imperium force might be reasonably good. An army of kill teams is going to be bad no matter what the make-up.

That is the fix. The only fix. Everything else is rearranging deck chairs on the titanic because of what GW has done with 8.

The Riptide fires *18* damage 2 shots. How did they think primaris was going to be viable?

It doesn't take that many 2 damage shots to rip the heart out of a primaris list. That's why I've never lost to them. No one cares how long your intercessors live, because they're terrible. One SG squad can basically kill an entire army's worth of intercessors. My record is 22.

Because Ravenguard exists,? OR dark angels with a dark shroud?

When only 6 of those 18 shots hit, only 4 wound, and only 2 get past saves (1 if in cover), it looks pretty poor return for your 250 point shooting model. If in an entire game your riptide kills 6-12 models assuming it lives all game that is terrible.

Or BA with the 5+++ banner?

NOw sure in this one case single wound marines are better, but tell that to all the Mortar teams, or lasguns, or poison shots etc that usually target your infantry. The problem is people going primaris only and bringing too few models. Mix them in with other threats, (some of which might also have 2 wounds like Sanguinary guard), and see how big a target they are .

You also act like Plasma inceptors/Helblasters don't nuke Riptides. Maybe not the single riptide that has both 18 shots and a 3++, but even then they do work (DA ones still probably kill it.).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean based on your argument

Aggressors fire 72 + 6D6 S4 D1 shots, how did they expect cheap infantry to be viable. (this costs less points than a riptide.)

Other "threats"? Have you read the marine codex?

yeah, I play with it. I already said those threats are better if they come from another codex. But in solo marines sure, Lascannon Devs, are a threat, that those damage 2 guns might also fire at because of range issue, cover etc. Sanguinary guard, Scout bikes, Ravenwing Bikes, Dark Talons, Speeder characters in DA.

New Stratagems

They seem solid. A Corvus Blackstar doing a suicide run in the middle of tyranids with +1 to wound and the ability to target synapse sounds fun

Wow, those are going to be really annoying to play against at times.

However, it does make you feel like they will not have much to offer against the masses of Guard and chaos.

At most of them being 2 CP they are very expensive for those strats. IT is an interesting idea, and very fluffy, but the xenos specific fluff might hurt the army. Again though as a small faction they could be interesting, especially in metas dominated by specific xenos factions.

Kdash wrote:
Wow, those are going to be really annoying to play against at times.

However, it does make you feel like they will not have much to offer against the masses of Guard and chaos.

Well they are the armed wing of the Ordo Xenos, not Ordo malleus or hereticus

Martel732 wrote:

The Riptide fires *18* damage 2 shots. How did they think primaris was going to be viable?

That weapon can't split fire itself.

18 * .584 * .666 * .5 = 3 to 4 dead (less if they're in cover). A 250 point model spent all it's points killing most of one 165 point unit.

And if it does that it needs to CP to get it's invuln up or retreat to cover.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

The Riptide fires *18* damage 2 shots. How did they think primaris was going to be viable?

That weapon can't split fire itself.

18 * .584 * .666 * .5 = 3 to 4 dead. A 250 point model spent all it's points killing most of one 165 point unit.

And if it does that it needs to CP to get it's invuln up or retreat to cover.

I wish my 250 pt stuff could take out 165 pts of stuff in one turn. Do you consider that bad?

Or it can just stand at 36" after neutering the hellblasters.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

The Riptide fires *18* damage 2 shots. How did they think primaris was going to be viable?

That weapon can't split fire itself.

18 * .584 * .666 * .5 = 3 to 4 dead (less if they're in cover). A 250 point model spent all it's points killing most of one 165 point unit.

And if it does that it needs to CP to get it's invuln up or retreat to cover.

Just to note here, 66% points return on a single round of shooting unbuffed across the board is "make optimized guard gunline players have to change their pants" levels of points return efficiency.

Breng77 wrote:
At most of them being 2 CP they are very expensive for those strats. IT is an interesting idea, and very fluffy, but the xenos specific fluff might hurt the army. Again though as a small faction they could be interesting, especially in metas dominated by specific xenos factions.

I am still extremely unconvinced. The problems start with 18 pt models, intercessors, being completely ignorable and most lists have no way to move them effectively. Yes, I suppose you can start with an IG base and soup in primaris, but IG have so much more firepower/pt, I can't understand why anyone would bother.

5 hellblasters with a capt and lt buffing them clear fewer than 4 wounds against a riptide with no 3++ shield up. That's at full strength. You will never get them within 15", and this doesn't take into account savior protocols. Yeah, your primaris are all dead and doing almost nothing in return. What a great use of points that marines are critically short on already.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

The Riptide fires *18* damage 2 shots. How did they think primaris was going to be viable?

That weapon can't split fire itself.

18 * .584 * .666 * .5 = 3 to 4 dead (less if they're in cover). A 250 point model spent all it's points killing most of one 165 point unit.

And if it does that it needs to CP to get it's invuln up or retreat to cover.

Just to note here, 66% points return on a single round of shooting unbuffed across the board is "make optimized guard gunline players have to change their pants" levels of points return efficiency.

I just pointed that out.

I wish my 250 pt stuff could take out 165 pts of stuff in one turn. Do you consider that bad?

Or it can just stand at 36" after neutering the hellblasters.

Just to note here, 66% points return on a single round of shooting unbuffed across the board is "make optimized guard gunline players have to change their pants" levels of points return efficiency.

Note that this Riptide is overcharged and also has a marker light on the unit. These are not things without cost.

A predator AC/HB is 150.

4 * .666 * .666 * .5 * 2 (3) = 1.8 hellblasters
6 * .666 * .666 * .5 = 0.7 hellblasters

80 points killed with 150. That's 54%. No support.

With reroll 1s.

4 * .777 * .666 * .5 * 2 (3) = 2.1 hellblasters
6 * .777 * .666 * .5 = 0.8 hellblasters

64%

The autocannon kills 0.88 hellblasters and the bolters kill another 0.66 hellblasters. What are you talking about?

Martel732 wrote:
The autocannon kills 0.88 hellblasters and the bolters kill another 0.66 hellblasters. What are you talking about?

AC is 3 damage. 4 * .666 * .666 * .5 * 2 = 1.8

HB was wrong - fixed that.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The autocannon kills 0.88 hellblasters and the bolters kill another 0.66 hellblasters. What are you talking about?

AC is 3 damage. 4 * .666 * .666 * .5 * 2 = 1.8

HB was wrong - fixed that.

You're still doubling the numbers here. 1.8 is the number of wounds inflicted, not the number of dead Hellblasters.

The damage doesn't spill over. The autocannon get 4 shots, 2.666 hits, 1.777 wounds, of which 0.88 are failed, and that kills 0.88 hellblasters because the wounds aren't mortal. It causes 2.64 wounds, but it only ever kills one model really.

You can include math for Sacea as well. Doesn't do much but it's an additional reroll haha

 Nym wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The autocannon kills 0.88 hellblasters and the bolters kill another 0.66 hellblasters. What are you talking about?

AC is 3 damage. 4 * .666 * .666 * .5 * 2 = 1.8

HB was wrong - fixed that.

You're still doubling the numbers here. 1.8 is the number of wounds inflicted, not the number of dead Hellblasters.

Oh damnit. Ok.

So, 41% efficient in that regard, sorry. So the Riptide is a bit more than 50% more effective.

5 Hellblasters at 30" with reroll 1s kill 3.2 of themselves or 65%. Double that in half range. There are certainly units that can be as effective for the proper targets. The Riptide gets the benefit of being awesome against light infantry as well.

(assuming I did the math correctly)

These are some tastym strats indeed! I can't wait to get my hands on the codex.

 Twoshoes23 wrote:

Kdash wrote:
Wow, those are going to be really annoying to play against at times.

However, it does make you feel like they will not have much to offer against the masses of Guard and chaos.

Well they are the armed wing of the Ordo Xenos, not Ordo malleus or hereticus

I fully accept that 100%. But, the game overall doesn't reflect that. Grey Knights currently suck because they are expensive and specialised. Just looking at the lists breakdown done by the_scotsman for the London GT shows a massive tendency towards Imperium or Chaos lists - if the Deathwatch become too specialised in game to just specific situations against specific armies, then, they will struggle as well when used in the wider game. It also doesn't matter if you prevent 1 blob of 30 orks from charging due to the stratagem, if the one next to it makes it in after instead.

As an ally however, they will be interesting, depending on costs.

Those stratagems are not that hot, imo.

I also hate when you have "specialist stuff" that only works against certain factions in general. If you want to build a unit that counters a particular faction, give them generic rules that do so, don't give them specific rules that just "happen" to give them an advantage, but which are also usable against other factions.

A few examples, here's an anti-Eldar stratagem:

Advanced Targeting Overlays (1CP): pick a unit making a shooting attack. That unit ignores all negative to-hit penalties for the remainder of the phase.

or here's one if you want a unit to be "anti-Daemon"

Smiting Blows (2CP): use this stratagem on a unit in the Fight phase. No invulnerable saves may be taken against melee attacks made by this unit until the end of the phase.

here's an anti-ork stratagem designed to help elite units cut down a horde:

Scythe Protocols: Use this stratagem when a unit shoots in the Shooting Phase. For every model slain by this shooting attack, generate another automatic hit by the same weapon that removed the final wound from that model. These hits cannot themselves generate additional hits.

See how these work against their intended targets very well, but aren't totally invalidated when not fighting them?