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2018/05/01 13:28:55
Subject: How will the new Deathwatch codex impact the current meta
In the hands of an experienced player wyches can be a solid unit with the new profile and all the codex combos available.
The_scotsman was also referring to Wych Cult units, not necessarily wyches. He was probably talking about hellions and reavers which can assault in turn 1 quite easily with the appropriate obsession as they have a long range movement, can advance and charge and also re-roll failed charge rolls.
Only witches and succubus have the lock in combat rule though right?
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2018/05/01 13:35:18
Subject: How will the new Deathwatch codex impact the current meta
Stealth suits compare favorably with scouts in both resilience and damage and mobility. The point I'm making is scouts are not good compared to other infiltrators. Practically any infiltrator data slate would be taken in favor of scouts.
Absolutely not true. Scouts are among the best infiltrators, because they are put there during deployment, beating out the other options for position. Only options that are also deployed as a deployment drop can compete with them, everything else is a long way behind.
You've got it backwards. Scouts would be preferable to practically any other infiltrator dataslate.
Yes - and lemon russ tanks are bad...please just stop.
Yes, they are, but that's for another time and place [also, it's Leman Russ, like my primarch]. I want to know why you think other infiltrators are better than scouts.
Why would I want to bring any of these other infiltrator dataslates? What advantages do they have to counteract the part where they don't beat scouts to position?
I'm pretty sure the answers fall into 2 camps
1.) He has no idea what the unit actually does.
2.) It has some slight mathematical advantage in some phase of the game that isn't deployment, and this game is a RNG where all you do is roll dice and the guy with the bigger guns wins.
Or that is at least my interpretation based on reading his posts in numerous places.
2018/05/01 13:36:15
Subject: How will the new Deathwatch codex impact the current meta
In the hands of an experienced player wyches can be a solid unit with the new profile and all the codex combos available.
The_scotsman was also referring to Wych Cult units, not necessarily wyches. He was probably talking about hellions and reavers which can assault in turn 1 quite easily with the appropriate obsession as they have a long range movement, can advance and charge and also re-roll failed charge rolls.
Only witches and succubus have the lock in combat rule though right?
Yes, but I believe his comment was in two parts – the first being the fast cult units to get past the scouts hovering 9” away from your deployment, and then the Wytch units to run up from deployment to lock them up.
However, any Wytch unit doing that would likely kill the unit they are attacking anyway, so, won’t always be a benefit.
2018/05/01 13:41:09
Subject: How will the new Deathwatch codex impact the current meta
Stealth suits compare favorably with scouts in both resilience and damage and mobility. The point I'm making is scouts are not good compared to other infiltrators. Practically any infiltrator data slate would be taken in favor of scouts.
Absolutely not true. Scouts are among the best infiltrators, because they are put there during deployment, beating out the other options for position. Only options that are also deployed as a deployment drop can compete with them, everything else is a long way behind.
You've got it backwards. Scouts would be preferable to practically any other infiltrator dataslate.
Yes - and lemon russ tanks are bad...please just stop.
Yes, they are, but that's for another time and place. I want to know why you think other infiltrators are better than scouts.
Why would I want to bring any of these other infiltrator dataslates? What advantages do they have to counteract the part where they don't beat scouts to position?
First LR are one of the best units in the game.
Scouts are pretty expensive per wound compared to other infiltrators and they don't offer better durability or firepower per point. If your job is just to take us space and you actaully don't take up much space or hold space - why do you exist?
A ranger unit does everything a scout unit does - as well as being hard to remove - and has a reasonably effective weapon. Scouts have bolters.
Stealth suits are much harder to remove and have more firepower with better range.
Things like kroot which I put in the same ballpark as scouts because their scout move does the important part of the job for an infiltrator have nearly tripple the firepower and twice the durability and take up nearly triple the amount of space. the have the exact same weapon a scout does for less than half it's points.
Nurglings are so small you can hide them behind a pebble and are effectively immune to damage. Plus are twice as hard to remove in the open.
What do scouts do better than any of these units? Fight in CC? GTFO.
Stealth suits compare favorably with scouts in both resilience and damage and mobility. The point I'm making is scouts are not good compared to other infiltrators. Practically any infiltrator data slate would be taken in favor of scouts.
Absolutely not true. Scouts are among the best infiltrators, because they are put there during deployment, beating out the other options for position. Only options that are also deployed as a deployment drop can compete with them, everything else is a long way behind.
You've got it backwards. Scouts would be preferable to practically any other infiltrator dataslate.
Yes - and lemon russ tanks are bad...please just stop.
Yes, they are, but that's for another time and place [also, it's Leman Russ, like my primarch]. I want to know why you think other infiltrators are better than scouts.
Why would I want to bring any of these other infiltrator dataslates? What advantages do they have to counteract the part where they don't beat scouts to position?
I'm pretty sure the answers fall into 2 camps
1.) He has no idea what the unit actually does.
2.) It has some slight mathematical advantage in some phase of the game that isn't deployment, and this game is a RNG where all you do is roll dice and the guy with the bigger guns wins.
Or that is at least my interpretation based on reading his posts in numerous places.
Yeah math has a lot to do with everything I say. Because this is a dice game. Better math wins more often than not.
Your right though - I have no idea what I am talking about because I mistakenly thought mandrakes could infiltrate but they actually deep strike.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/01 13:47:39
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2018/05/01 13:54:02
Subject: How will the new Deathwatch codex impact the current meta
But what happens when the Scout unit deploys before the Nurglings, Ghostkeels or Stealth Suits?
What happens if I deploy 3 units of Scouts before you get you scout move your Kroot or deploy your Rangers?
What happens if my first drop is 1 unit of 10 scouts right in the middle of the table, spread out as far as possible?
Just because Scouts don’t have that best damage output or have a worse wounds to points ratio, doesn’t mean Rangers or Kroot are inherently better than them.
You also need to take into account that Scouts are the only Imperium units that can deploy like this, with a few other units that can “scout” move before the first turn. It doesn’t matter if other units in other armies are better, if, for Imperium they are the only option.
If I go up against 3 units of Rangers, I’d be perfectly happy with them deploying in their own deployment zone, because it means they are essentially nothing more than “home” objective campers hoping for the odd pot shot at characters. The moment they have to start moving around the table and out of cover, is the moment they lose so much of their “power”. Also, Scouts can also take sniper rifles if you want to pay the points for them, so, that needs to be considered when comparing them to Rangers.
Nurglings can be more difficult to remove in the open, but, then, as there are so many 2+ damage weapons out there, I’d just fire them at them if I needed to remove them and deny them their FNP.
Everything can be removed easily enough in 8th, if you use the right tools.
2018/05/01 13:57:55
Subject: How will the new Deathwatch codex impact the current meta
Rangers are worse at actually holding territory and less durable, unless in terrain. Their gun is only better at killing certain targets against things screens generally want to shoot they are worse, because they have fewer shots at the same Strength. They also deploy after deployment so point of fact don't do everything a scout does and their ability is shut down by....Scouts
Point for point stealth suits are not much harder to remove, it takes 20 bolter hits to remove a 5 man scout squad, and 36 to remove a 3 man stealth squad.So you are paying 0.36 hits per point per hit needed for scouts, and 0.42 points per hit for stealth suits. Now if you are not taking raven guard scouts, or your enemy is within 12", then the -1 to hit pulls this in favor of stealth suits 0.54 shots per point to kill a scout squad (30 bolter shots) and 0.86 shots per point to kill a stealth team (72 shots). But throw in multiple damage weapon and scouts have the edge by a significant amount. It has already been shown they in fact have less fire power per point, at worse BS but better S. Against Chaff that ends up being a wash. It only looks a lot better for the stealth team if you don't consider points.
Kroot are no where near as good at occupying space because Scouts prevent them from doing just that.
Nurglings if modeled as they are in the new kits are not all that small, and they take up less space than scouts. But they are another good option.
Basically other than Nurglings and Stealth teams none of the options you are talking about touch scouts for usefulness.
2018/05/01 13:58:17
Subject: How will the new Deathwatch codex impact the current meta
Stealth suits compare favorably with scouts in both resilience and damage and mobility. The point I'm making is scouts are not good compared to other infiltrators. Practically any infiltrator data slate would be taken in favor of scouts.
Absolutely not true. Scouts are among the best infiltrators, because they are put there during deployment, beating out the other options for position. Only options that are also deployed as a deployment drop can compete with them, everything else is a long way behind.
You've got it backwards. Scouts would be preferable to practically any other infiltrator dataslate.
Yes - and lemon russ tanks are bad...please just stop.
Yes, they are, but that's for another time and place. I want to know why you think other infiltrators are better than scouts.
Why would I want to bring any of these other infiltrator dataslates? What advantages do they have to counteract the part where they don't beat scouts to position?
First LR are one of the best units in the game.
Scouts are pretty expensive per wound compared to other infiltrators and they don't offer better durability or firepower per point. If your job is just to take us space and you actaully don't take up much space or hold space - why do you exist?
A ranger unit does everything a scout unit does - as well as being hard to remove - and has a reasonably effective weapon. Scouts have bolters.
Stealth suits are much harder to remove and have more firepower with better range.
Things like kroot which I put in the same ballpark as scouts because their scout move does the important part of the job for an infiltrator have nearly tripple the firepower and twice the durability and take up nearly triple the amount of space. the have the exact same weapon a scout does for less than half it's points.
Nurglings are so small you can hide them behind a pebble and are effectively immune to damage. Plus are twice as hard to remove in the open.
What do scouts do better than any of these units? Fight in CC? GTFO.
Scouts firepower, or lack thereof, is entirely irrelevant because it doesn't contribute to their primary function. They don't exist to bring firepower to the board, they exist to get in the way of things like Dominion Vanguard and Alpha Legion infiltration.
Scouts scout first. That's the short of it. Rangers, Kroot, etc. all go afterwords, at the same time enemy Dominions and Alpha Legionaries go, which means they're only effective at interfereing with them the half the time you get to go first. And if you were going first, your infiltrators are having their lowest possible value. Scouts will infiltrate before everything but Stealthsuits [and apparently Nurglings], whom they tie with, but will still have an opportunity to zone some of the board against.
Scouts are extremely good at zoning and board control, far better than the competing options which do their thing "after deployment but before the first player takes the first turn".
For 55 points, you get over 3 square feet of completely reliable infiltrator denial. Even if you have second drop against nurglings or stealthsuits [or scouts], they can't monopolize all the frontage, so you can secure yourself a nice little area to set up the rest of your troops safe from enemy vanguards and infiltrator
The only other outstanding consideration is if they're still there on turn 2 to deny deep strikers, but by then a lot of other factor have had an opportunity to come into play, like your own guns.
Any you know what? Scouts are cheap a precious commodity in the Space Marines. They're a best-in-class unit that's also super cheap, enough to be a compelling reason to splash Space Marines in a mixed Imperium list.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/01 14:09:14
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
2018/05/01 14:01:25
Subject: How will the new Deathwatch codex impact the current meta
@Xeno- You also thought Kommandos could infiltrate, kroot could infiltrate, that rangers function like scouts....so yes you don't know what you are talking about in this instance.
Further Better math in a vacum does not win games. I beat guard armies all the time that math says should win because of things like scouts allowing me to murder them should I go first.
2018/05/01 14:09:09
Subject: How will the new Deathwatch codex impact the current meta
"Just because Scouts don’t have that best damage output or have a worse wounds to points ratio, doesn’t mean Rangers or Kroot are inherently better than them."
Yes it does - it's as simple as that.
Most 2 damage weapons are plasma. They will not overcharge against -1 to hit.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2018/05/01 14:11:40
Subject: How will the new Deathwatch codex impact the current meta
Xenomancers wrote: "Just because Scouts don’t have that best damage output or have a worse wounds to points ratio, doesn’t mean Rangers or Kroot are inherently better than them."
Yes it does - it's as simple as that.
Most 2 damage weapons are plasma. They will not overcharge against -1 to hit.
No,it really doesn't and this is why my statement about math you have a very poor understanding of how things actually work on the table top. As for 2 damage weapons, autocannons, pretty much all IG tanks, plenty of close combat weapons do 2 or more damage. Then all the D6 damage weapons which could shoot....I'm not saying that against the things you would like to shoot at screens Scouts are better, but if I can shoot 1 lascannon dev squad at your stealth suits and clear all of them in a turn I might just do that.
2018/05/01 14:14:58
Subject: How will the new Deathwatch codex impact the current meta
Xenomancers wrote: "Just because Scouts don’t have that best damage output or have a worse wounds to points ratio, doesn’t mean Rangers or Kroot are inherently better than them."
Yes it does - it's as simple as that.
Most 2 damage weapons are plasma. They will not overcharge against -1 to hit.
No, it doesn't, because you don't bring scouts to shoot or fight.
Each unit brought is brought to fill a specific task, and paying for features that don't contribute to this task is a waste of points. If scouts paid for better guns or close-quarters ability, they'd stop being good.
They're near maximum efficiency zoning and board control. It's really hard to argue they're not good.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/01 14:16:32
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
2018/05/01 14:18:49
Subject: How will the new Deathwatch codex impact the current meta
Breng77 wrote: @Xeno- You also thought Kommandos could infiltrate, kroot could infiltrate, that rangers function like scouts....so yes you don't know what you are talking about in this instance.
Further Better math in a vacum does not win games. I beat guard armies all the time that math says should win because of things like scouts allowing me to murder them should I go first.
All out of deployment zone deployment...including scout moves - serve the same function. ESP if you are building your list around it. For example a tau list just needs deep strikers pushed back
Deepstrike is different true - that was my mistake on commandoes and mandrakes - in my defense these have always been infiltration units in the past. Why they now deep-strike is beyond me.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2018/05/01 14:19:52
Subject: How will the new Deathwatch codex impact the current meta
Automatically Appended Next Post: Pictures from the WC post.
Spoiler:
The Mission Tactics ability allows the Deathwatch to adjust their fighting style dependent on your opponent. At the start of the game, you’ll get to pick a Mission Tactic which corresponds to a Battlefield Role – Troops, Fast Attack, Elites, etc. – and your entire army will gain re-rolls of 1s to wound against that unit. Like Chapter Tactics, Mission Tactics applies to all your infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts, so you’ll be able to take advantage of a wide range of units.
Auto bolt rifles, bolt carbines, stalker bolt rifles, standard bolt rifles and the absolvor bolt pistol can now be outfitted with this ammunition, making Intercessors a very powerful choice. Kraken bolts, for example, help compensate for the lower AP of the auto bolt rifle, while a Reiver’s heavy bolt pistol firing vengeance rounds would have an AP of -3!
2018/05/01 14:22:44
Subject: How will the new Deathwatch codex impact the current meta
Breng77 wrote: @Xeno- You also thought Kommandos could infiltrate, kroot could infiltrate, that rangers function like scouts....so yes you don't know what you are talking about in this instance.
Further Better math in a vacum does not win games. I beat guard armies all the time that math says should win because of things like scouts allowing me to murder them should I go first.
All out of deployment zone deployment...including scout moves - serve the same function. ESP if you are building your list around it. For example a tau list just needs deep strikers pushed back
Deepstrike is different true - that was my mistake on commandoes and mandrakes - in my defense these have always been infiltration units in the past. Why they now deep-strike is beyond me.
They serve similar purpose but not always the same. Some scout move unit are used offensively, as are some infiltrating style units. Further the difference in how they function is key to the whole discussion. When one of the options can render the other completely useless in that role, that option is by default the better option. Hence why scout squads, Nurglings and stealth teams are on a different level of utility than any of the other options you claim are "better" than scouts. Failure to understand this is a key misunderstanding of how the game gets played on top tables.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Pictures from the WC post.
Spoiler:
The Mission Tactics ability allows the Deathwatch to adjust their fighting style dependent on your opponent. At the start of the game, you’ll get to pick a Mission Tactic which corresponds to a Battlefield Role – Troops, Fast Attack, Elites, etc. – and your entire army will gain re-rolls of 1s to wound against that unit. Like Chapter Tactics, Mission Tactics applies to all your infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts, so you’ll be able to take advantage of a wide range of units.
Auto bolt rifles, bolt carbines, stalker bolt rifles, standard bolt rifles and the absolvor bolt pistol can now be outfitted with this ammunition, making Intercessors a very powerful choice. Kraken bolts, for example, help compensate for the lower AP of the auto bolt rifle, while a Reiver’s heavy bolt pistol firing vengeance rounds would have an AP of -3!
some interesting stuff, it really will come down to cost of units and delivery of said units.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/01 14:25:00
2018/05/01 14:28:01
Subject: How will the new Deathwatch codex impact the current meta
Breng77 wrote: @Xeno- You also thought Kommandos could infiltrate, kroot could infiltrate, that rangers function like scouts....so yes you don't know what you are talking about in this instance.
Further Better math in a vacum does not win games. I beat guard armies all the time that math says should win because of things like scouts allowing me to murder them should I go first.
All out of deployment zone deployment...including scout moves - serve the same function. ESP if you are building your list around it. For example a tau list just needs deep strikers pushed back
Deepstrike is different true - that was my mistake on commandoes and mandrakes - in my defense these have always been infiltration units in the past. Why they now deep-strike is beyond me.
They serve similar purpose but not always the same. Some scout move unit are used offensively, as are some infiltrating style units. Further the difference in how they function is key to the whole discussion. When one of the options can render the other completely useless in that role, that option is by default the better option. Hence why scout squads, Nurglings and stealth teams are on a different level of utility than any of the other options you claim are "better" than scouts. Failure to understand this is a key misunderstanding of how the game gets played on top tables.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Pictures from the WC post.
Spoiler:
The Mission Tactics ability allows the Deathwatch to adjust their fighting style dependent on your opponent. At the start of the game, you’ll get to pick a Mission Tactic which corresponds to a Battlefield Role – Troops, Fast Attack, Elites, etc. – and your entire army will gain re-rolls of 1s to wound against that unit. Like Chapter Tactics, Mission Tactics applies to all your infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts, so you’ll be able to take advantage of a wide range of units.
Auto bolt rifles, bolt carbines, stalker bolt rifles, standard bolt rifles and the absolvor bolt pistol can now be outfitted with this ammunition, making Intercessors a very powerful choice. Kraken bolts, for example, help compensate for the lower AP of the auto bolt rifle, while a Reiver’s heavy bolt pistol firing vengeance rounds would have an AP of -3!
some interesting stuff, it really will come down to cost of units and delivery of said units.
I agree. I'm not expecting to see the Repulsor make it into the codex (though it could i guess). It's also sad, in a way, to see GW confirm that they intended to shaft all Marines in terms of restricting "chapter tactics" by also imposing this restriction on DW as well. Not surprising though.
2018/05/01 14:30:38
Subject: How will the new Deathwatch codex impact the current meta
Xenomancers wrote: "Just because Scouts don’t have that best damage output or have a worse wounds to points ratio, doesn’t mean Rangers or Kroot are inherently better than them."
Yes it does - it's as simple as that.
Most 2 damage weapons are plasma. They will not overcharge against -1 to hit.
No, it doesn't, because you don't bring scouts to shoot or fight.
Each unit brought is brought to fill a specific task, and paying for features that don't contribute to this task is a waste of points. If scouts paid for better guns or close-quarters ability, they'd stop being good.
They're near maximum efficiency zoning and board control. It's really hard to argue they're not good.
It's easy to argue they aren't good. Am can get their same zoning potential from scout sentinels - and they should because scout sentinels don't suck. Outside of alpha legion bezerkers being deployed on your door step - the sentinals will do better in every situation - by being harder to kill and having better firepower and contributing to the gunline against other gunlines. What to do about alpha legion bezerkers? This is why you have lines and lines of infantry. 9 inches deep.
For "competitive" space marine armies - (which are likely to consist of 3 storm ravens) There is your front line. Immune to turn 1 CC nonsense that doesn't fly - what the heck do I need scouts for? Your scouts? just fodder for my hurricane bolters as I fly by getting automatic rapid fire because you deployed in the middle of the table like a dunce.
What specific task is scout infiltration serving outside of what a scout sentinel can do? denying opponents infiltration? I don't care where my opponents put rangers dude. I am going to ignore them all game unless they are too close to a unit that has nothing else to do.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2018/05/01 14:34:07
Subject: Re:How will the new Deathwatch codex impact the current meta
I dunno. Intercessors getting special ammo really increases their damage output. As long as they don't get a big price increase, I got a feeling that Deathwatch Primaris are gonna be at least decent.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/05/01 14:51:37
Subject: How will the new Deathwatch codex impact the current meta
Xenomancers wrote: "Just because Scouts don’t have that best damage output or have a worse wounds to points ratio, doesn’t mean Rangers or Kroot are inherently better than them."
Yes it does - it's as simple as that.
Most 2 damage weapons are plasma. They will not overcharge against -1 to hit.
No, it doesn't, because you don't bring scouts to shoot or fight.
Each unit brought is brought to fill a specific task, and paying for features that don't contribute to this task is a waste of points. If scouts paid for better guns or close-quarters ability, they'd stop being good.
They're near maximum efficiency zoning and board control. It's really hard to argue they're not good.
It's easy to argue they aren't good. Am can get their same zoning potential from scout sentinels - and they should because scout sentinels don't suck. Outside of alpha legion bezerkers being deployed on your door step - the sentinals will do better in every situation - by being harder to kill and having better firepower and contributing to the gunline against other gunlines. What to do about alpha legion bezerkers? This is why you have lines and lines of infantry. 9 inches deep.
For "competitive" space marine armies - (which are likely to consist of 3 storm ravens) There is your front line. Immune to turn 1 CC nonsense that doesn't fly - what the heck do I need scouts for? Your scouts? just fodder for my hurricane bolters as I fly by getting automatic rapid fire because you deployed in the middle of the table like a dunce.
What specific task is scout infiltration serving outside of what a scout sentinel can do? denying opponents infiltration? I don't care where my opponents put rangers dude. I am going to ignore them all game unless they are too close to a unit that has nothing else to do.
Except the facing my Ravenguard or sisters + raven guard lists that strand those sentinels in your deployment, scout my dominions up and murder all your infantry turn 1 and engage a bunch of your tanks....Or those Berserkers take some prisoners, or fight 3 times, and tie up your vehicles....
If you ignore your opponents rangers you will lose on objectives when they deploy on them...after all you ignored them so they are still alive...
3 storm ravens isn't competitive anymore, it hasn't won a GT in forever, or even placed highly they are too pricey these days.
2018/05/01 14:55:02
Subject: How will the new Deathwatch codex impact the current meta
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I dunno. Intercessors getting special ammo really increases their damage output. As long as they don't get a big price increase, I got a feeling that Deathwatch Primaris are gonna be at least decent.
Extra AP on guns and reroll 1s to wound against the targets they want dead most...sounds good to me! It's going to be a hell of a bolter party.
2018/05/01 15:34:38
Subject: How will the new Deathwatch codex impact the current meta
Kdash wrote: I agree. I'm not expecting to see the Repulsor make it into the codex (though it could i guess). It's also sad, in a way, to see GW confirm that they intended to shaft all Marines in terms of restricting "chapter tactics" by also imposing this restriction on DW as well. Not surprising though.
Well there goes any hope of CA 2018 finally changing that imbalance.
DW look like they have some realt powerful ticks to pull of in terma of mission tactics and being able to change them I think 3-4 tines in a single game thats insanely powerful in allowing you to focoua down an army selection by selection bar transports.
The real question is going to come down to points as if they are even remotely close to vanilla marine costs marines will have to see points drops.
2018/05/01 15:40:06
Subject: How will the new Deathwatch codex impact the current meta
I want to run an all Primaris army, and these Deathwatch rules sound promising. I really hope there are no pointless limitations and you can use all the currently available Primaris models as Deathwatch.
I guess the big question is whether the special ammo is free, or whether it comes with a point increase. Also, Raven Guard rules are still pretty good, but if DW gets free special ammo, then they could be real contender for best way to run Primaris Marines.
I'm not sure if any of this make the army competitive in general, but as I want to use Primaris models regardless, I'm shopping for best possible rules for them.
Red_Five wrote: I really dislike the fact that so much of the Deathwatch thread is being eaten up with posts about scouts and stealth suits.
Will Deathwatch affect the meta? No. They are an elite army full of fragile models.
Will they be fun t play in normal games? Heck yeah.
Will they win big tournaments? No.
Well, we are seeing another example of how sticking to the topic on a Dakka thread is like accidentally stepping in the wrong bathroom. Everyone starts screaming at you to get out, you feel really embarassed and forget why you were there in the first place.
Let's talk about what we learned from today's post. They are saying Deathwatch is highly adaptable, and they are showing off a Stratagem. Great.
Tempest Shells will be great against some vehicle with high toughness and lots of wounds. I can see this possibly being used to take that tank down a tier, or finish it off after a round of shooting.
For it to work, Deathwatch will need to be able to a) do other wounds to the vehicle and b) hit with this Stratagem. While there aren't a lot of ways for a vehicle to get cover, there are plenty of 'chapter tactics' that give a modifier that works like cover at 12 inches. So some subfactions will be better than other at resisting this.
But it's only d3 mortal wounds, it's only useful against vehicles, and it's depends on getting the hit - which is crucial. BS 3 can become a BS 4 (or BS 5 with Doom) and suddenly this 1 CP Stratagem is very hard to pull off. Also, Kill Teams are not exactly good at blowing up vehicles, with only plasma, melta, missile launchers and power weapons to work with. So why would GW be touting this as a reason to play Deathwatch?
For the DW lists I've made, I've had a hard time coming up with a decent list that uses more than a Battalion, because every unit is expensive. Currently, it costs a lot for that adaptability. Let's say the average DW player is going to have 8 VPs to play with. If this Stratagem is going to be useful, either the points of Kill Team squads are going to go down, they are going to get some better vehicle-wrecking weapons, or those Primaris are going to be able to do something we haven't all thought of yet.
What is GW saying about the Codex with this Stratagem? Is this how they plan to fix AV for DW? Ask yourself how likely it is this Stratagem will actually be used to kill vehicles / take them down a tier.
Crimson wrote: I want to run an all Primaris army, and these Deathwatch rules sound promising. I really hope there are no pointless limitations and you can use all the currently available Primaris models as Deathwatch.
I guess the big question is whether the special ammo is free, or whether it comes with a point increase. Also, Raven Guard rules are still pretty good, but if DW gets free special ammo, then they could be real contender for best way to run Primaris Marines.
I'm not sure if any of this make the army competitive in general, but as I want to use Primaris models regardless, I'm shopping for best possible rules for them.
It's going to be hard to beat the RG infiltrate. If they end up with the same stratagem as the RG - there is a pretty good chance they will be the best marines.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2018/05/01 16:00:08
Subject: How will the new Deathwatch codex impact the current meta
Crimson wrote: I want to run an all Primaris army, and these Deathwatch rules sound promising. I really hope there are no pointless limitations and you can use all the currently available Primaris models as Deathwatch.
I guess the big question is whether the special ammo is free, or whether it comes with a point increase. Also, Raven Guard rules are still pretty good, but if DW gets free special ammo, then they could be real contender for best way to run Primaris Marines.
I'm not sure if any of this make the army competitive in general, but as I want to use Primaris models regardless, I'm shopping for best possible rules for them.
It's going to be hard to beat the RG infiltrate. If they end up with the same stratagem as the RG - there is a pretty good chance they will be the best marines.
They're gonna get a Deep Strike Strategem. Mark my words.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/05/01 16:00:08
Subject: How will the new Deathwatch codex impact the current meta
In the hands of an experienced player wyches can be a solid unit with the new profile and all the codex combos available.
The_scotsman was also referring to Wych Cult units, not necessarily wyches. He was probably talking about hellions and reavers which can assault in turn 1 quite easily with the appropriate obsession as they have a long range movement, can advance and charge and also re-roll failed charge rolls.
Only witches and succubus have the lock in combat rule though right?
Yes, but I believe his comment was in two parts – the first being the fast cult units to get past the scouts hovering 9” away from your deployment, and then the Wytch units to run up from deployment to lock them up.
However, any Wytch unit doing that would likely kill the unit they are attacking anyway, so, won’t always be a benefit.
Not at all. That's the thing: because so few unts in 8th have the ability to prevent fallback, the old 7th ed technique of trying to deny killing on your turn to kill on your opponent's turn rarely comes up in 8th - but it's actually so easy to do with Wyches it's not even funny.
Lets say we have eldar rangers - made of paper, you don't want to kill them. Take your wyches, charge them. Contact with 1 model, keep your shardnet 3" away but over 1" from the contacting model. All other models over 1" from contacting model. pile in up the board. attack with one wych, if he kills the one you're next to, just consolidate to get models within 1". On his turn, he's got a 20% chance of leaving, then you move your wyches into contact and slaughter them, then consolidate 3" towards the enemy lines ready to get the party started.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2018/05/01 16:11:01
Subject: How will the new Deathwatch codex impact the current meta
In the hands of an experienced player wyches can be a solid unit with the new profile and all the codex combos available.
The_scotsman was also referring to Wych Cult units, not necessarily wyches. He was probably talking about hellions and reavers which can assault in turn 1 quite easily with the appropriate obsession as they have a long range movement, can advance and charge and also re-roll failed charge rolls.
Only witches and succubus have the lock in combat rule though right?
Yes, but I believe his comment was in two parts – the first being the fast cult units to get past the scouts hovering 9” away from your deployment, and then the Wytch units to run up from deployment to lock them up.
However, any Wytch unit doing that would likely kill the unit they are attacking anyway, so, won’t always be a benefit.
Not at all. That's the thing: because so few unts in 8th have the ability to prevent fallback, the old 7th ed technique of trying to deny killing on your turn to kill on your opponent's turn rarely comes up in 8th - but it's actually so easy to do with Wyches it's not even funny.
Lets say we have eldar rangers - made of paper, you don't want to kill them. Take your wyches, charge them. Contact with 1 model, keep your shardnet 3" away but over 1" from the contacting model. All other models over 1" from contacting model. pile in up the board. attack with one wych, if he kills the one you're next to, just consolidate to get models within 1". On his turn, he's got a 20% chance of leaving, then you move your wyches into contact and slaughter them, then consolidate 3" towards the enemy lines ready to get the party started.
Isn't it a roll off?
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2018/05/01 16:16:14
Subject: How will the new Deathwatch codex impact the current meta
Xenomancers wrote: So in summary - Stealth suits are better in every way than scouts...yet - it doesn't matter because "opinions". Being a troop is irrelevant. Tau have firewarriors which are amazing - they don't need their infiltrators to be troops because they have actual options when building a list. Or they can just take kroot - who have a scout move and accomplish the same thing as an infiltrating unit - which is to push back enemy deep strikes.
This, in response to this:
"SS compare favorably in damage and mobility, but that means pretty much jackall for an infiltrator, which is primarily just there to absorb turn 1 damage, prevent movement especially from turn 1 chargers, and establish board control.
Stealth Suits cost 14 points per wound vs 11 points per wound, and that's pretty good for the extra durability. 21% more cost for 34% more durability. But there's less than half as many bodies on the table (making them worse at that "block movement" job that's half the reason you take them) and critically they're Elites rather than troops. a screening detachment of Scouts can be a Battalion, bringing 5CPs, while at best your stealth suits will contribute to bringing 1 to the table. "
Is pretty much the best highlighting of Xeno's attitude I could possibly distill.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
