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I don't see it changing the meta at all. I've been wrong with my predictions for every codex so far though. Here's hoping I'm wrong once again

drbored wrote:
The Deathwatch Codex needs a massive board-wide points drop in order to shake up the meta at all.

Every Codex that comes out, Marines are just not in a great spot. Easy access to massed high ap firepower means that super awesome power armor of 3+ gets reduced to a 5+ or 6+ really fast. Even 2+ armor is meh thanks to that. :/

Omg...

It's like the 90s all over again. It's the kinda nostalgia that makes you want to rage punt a puppy in to traffic

So a big fat nope.....and over to 30k. What? Did you think I'd quit cold turkey? I don't have a problem. I could quit if I wanted to, I just don't want to.

Ah yes, 30k, because Blue Marines vs Purple Marines all day every day is so riveting!

As for Deathwatch, it'll do exactly nothing to the meta. Marines are garbage tier, end of story.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Ah yes, 30k, because Blue Marines vs Purple Marines all day every day is so riveting!

As for Deathwatch, it'll do exactly nothing to the meta. Marines are garbage tier, end of story.

It isn't perfectly balanced, but 30k until the last book had some really cool army choices and functioned pretty well.

It's amazing, you can be really excited or the release of a new codex.....and then you sign on to dakka.

Deathwatch will be unique and probably the best way to run Primaris. Doubt that will change much overall, however.

No.

Deathwatch are pretty much the epitome of having undesirable characteristics.

You're the same resiliency of a regular marine, but even more per model, and therefore even more painful when someone dies. My Deathwatch guys are just there for fun and for playing the Deathwatch RPG.

Having super-special awesome guys just isn't a good plan. I don't think their codex will change this.

I guess you could stack up for a nasty T2 deep strike.

You never know, I’m hoping for great things. A Primaris transport would be so awesome too.

 Primark G wrote:
You never know, I’m hoping for great things. A Primaris transport would be so awesome too.

I think that's hoping a bit much, but I'll be pleasantly surprised.

Primaris Marines could definitely use a cheap transport with a good gun, though.

 bullyboy wrote:
It's amazing, you can be really excited or the release of a new codex.....and then you sign on to dakka.

Deathwatch will be unique and probably the best way to run Primaris. Doubt that will change much overall, however.

Still excited and optimistic for this Codex. I'm just worried based on the German leak that the 'increased availability of SIA' will only apply to Intercessors and that mission tactics are the sole replacement for a chapter tactic. Mostly hoping for a points decrease to basic vets, SIA Storm Bolters, some good stratagems, and the ability for the Corvus to carry Primaris (it can carry bikes inside it FFS). Even if the Codex isn't top tier, I love the army and will continue to play the hell out of it. It's way more interesting to play than my Guard army even if my win rate is something absurdly bad like 20%.

 Primark G wrote:
I see that you will be able to take mixed Primaris squads now that seems interesting. I am wondering they will get any juicy strats that do a real number on xenos to re-balance the meta.

How many people own a deathwatch army? How many are going to start a new if the codex turns out very good? If you figure those questions out you'll have the answer to the original question.

My guess is the deathwatch codex will have a very tiny impact on the current meta since basically no one plays that faction. Maybe it will have an impact on bigger events, but regular metas are not going to be significantly affected by the deathwatch codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Ah yes, 30k, because Blue Marines vs Purple Marines all day every day is so riveting!

As for Deathwatch, it'll do exactly nothing to the meta. Marines are garbage tier, end of story.

It isn't perfectly balanced, but 30k until the last book had some really cool army choices and functioned pretty well.

Yes, if you like SM vs SM.

 Blackie wrote:
My guess is the deathwatch codex will have a very tiny impact on the current meta since basically no one plays that faction. Maybe it will have an impact on bigger events, but regular metas are not going to be significantly affected by the deathwatch codex.

I have got an army of them? I feel so diminished and forgotten :( *sob*.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Almost every army has a scout option - infiltrate is a powerful mechanic. Scouts are one of the weakest version of it.

Scouts are taken in competitive not because they are good - but because a troop choice must be taken and scouts suck slightly less than tactical marines.

Are you trying to tell me that space marine players wouldn't prefer to take rangers? Or Commandoes? Or Stealth Teams? Or Mandrakes? Or kroot?

Scouts have got to be the worst outside of deployment zone option in the entire game. Can you name me one that is worse? (assuming you agree that all of the above units are better than scouts)

Then why do they get taken in lists that take IG CP farms? Certainly those armies would be better served with taking no troops in the marine portion of their lists. Why not just bring scout sentinels, or Ratlings? Those are cheaper and you already have a ton of CP available. Scouts are one of the 3 most powerful infiltrate units. not the weakest version. You have it backwards.


Kommandos don't inflitrate at all they deepstrike. Orks have no infiltrate option at the moment. With the beta rules there is little reason to take kommandos at all. But I would take scouts as orks, because they would give me a place to drop my Da Jump unit,


Rangers - Deploy after scouts deploy So if I place my scouts well guess what you don't do with your rangers. Inflitrate them at all, they end up in your deployment zone, or you infiltrate them in some crappy position that does not screen at all. If Reaper spam players could have scouts they would take them either over or in addition to rangers. Rangers are more resilient to shooting assuming they are in terrain, but that is limiting when trying to screen out, and again, you don't get to screen out at all against scouts.

Kroot - Don't infiltrate they scout move before the games begins. Get what they don't get to do against scouts. Scout move. Scouts get put 9" away from the Tau deployment zone and now the kroot cannot move at all because they need to end 9" away from the scouts. Tau would take scouts over Kroot or in addition to kroot if they could.

Stealth suits - infiltrate like scouts, but worse because they must be 12" away from the enemy deployment or enemy models. So this comes down to who gets the first drop, but they are also considerably more expensive than scouts. They are better offensively. A little worse at board control during deployment. This unit is in the coversation about being better than scouts because of when they infiltrate. Not being troops hurts them a bit though because that means if you are taking troops it is an extra cost.

Mandrakes - deepstrike don't infiltrate, so are worse than scouts at infiltrate deployment.

Needless to say I don't agree that these units are all better than scouts for the purpose of board control and forward deployment, in fact only stealth teams are in the discussion. In other roles sure. IF I want snipers, I'd take rangers over sniper scouts. OR if I want a unit to camp an objective in cover.

In fact if I were playing gunline guard I would always have some space marine element specifically for the purpose of scouts as they give me a decent chance of not getting screwed facing something like Alpha legion that goes first (though that player should bring nurglings, so it is a dice off for positioning) I bring space marine with my sisters largely for the purpose of having scouts because they ensure my dominions have a place to scout forward into. They are auto include for Ravenguard, I could infiltrate Intercessors instead, or tacticals, but scouts make sure I have a place to infiltrate.


The Units in discussion for best infiltrating unit are Scouts, Nurglings, and Stealth Suits, because they deploy during deployment. This is slightly less important with the beta rules on deepstrike, but against armies they have their own "infiltrate" units that deploy after deployment scouts stop those units in their tracks. Scout sentinels? sorry don't get to move, Sisters Dominions, sorry don't get to move, Death Company with Forlorn Fury, nope, Alpha legion/Raven Guard, have fun in your deployment zone

So again this suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of how the game functions, and speaks to why you think the game is a huge RNG dice fest where gunline guard auto wins.


As to death guard, it all depends on what they bring to an Imperium allied army. They won't do anything as a standalone force, but if they have a powerful unit or 2 and good strats, they might see play allied to guard, or other marines.

 Blackie wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I see that you will be able to take mixed Primaris squads now that seems interesting. I am wondering they will get any juicy strats that do a real number on xenos to re-balance the meta.

How many people own a deathwatch army? How many are going to start a new if the codex turns out very good? If you figure those questions out you'll have the answer to the original question.

My guess is the deathwatch codex will have a very tiny impact on the current meta since basically no one plays that faction. Maybe it will have an impact on bigger events, but regular metas are not going to be significantly affected by the deathwatch codex.

There are a lot of Space Marine armies that could be reshuffled into Death Watch with a few weapon swaps. Primaris Marines wouldn't even need that. If the Death Watch Codex is great, I'd expect to see a whole bunch of all-Raven Guard Kill Teams popping up. However, I'm unconvinced that expensive T4 W1-2 Sv3+ models are going shake things up anyway.

Breng77 wrote:

Stealth suits - infiltrate like scouts, but worse because they must be 12" away from the enemy deployment or enemy models. So this comes down to who gets the first drop, but they are also considerably more expensive than scouts. They are better offensively. A little worse at board control during deployment. This unit is in the coversation about being better than scouts because of when they infiltrate. Not being troops hurts them a bit though because that means if you are taking troops it is an extra cost.

Not got the codex to hand, but, I thought that Stealth Suits and Ghostkeels infiltrated slightly differently.

They have to be setup 12” away from an enemy unit, BUT can be setup anywhere outside of the enemy deployment zone.

So, in a sense, if you manage to get the first drop, a unit of 6 stealth suits can setup 6” away from the enemy’s deployment zone and deny most of the central table area to other infiltrators, such as scouts.

However, a unit of 6 stealth suits is considerable more expensive than a unit of scouts, so the trade-off is models on the table.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Will be interesting to see how the kill teams are going to work Primaris wise. They certainly do add extra interest into the range, but how effective they will be, remains to be seen.

yup there is a slight difference in how they deploy , so you can deny a large area if you go first. But yeah 6 stealth suits is 168 points. 10 Scouts is 110 points, and can do similar if going first and deploying 9" away from the enemy deployment zone. That is why deployment timing infiltrators are so powerful.

Breng77 wrote:
yup there is a slight difference in how they deploy , so you can deny a large area if you go first. But yeah 6 stealth suits is 168 points. 10 Scouts is 110 points, and can do similar if going first and deploying 9" away from the enemy deployment zone. That is why deployment timing infiltrators are so powerful.

And boy oh boy is it ever why I'm excited for Wych Cults to smack into that meta.

Alpha strikers with massive move and Fly backed up by infantry troops that stop Fall Back 80% of the time even if you're a stealth suit with Fly....oh my yes

Kdash wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Stealth suits - infiltrate like scouts, but worse because they must be 12" away from the enemy deployment or enemy models. So this comes down to who gets the first drop, but they are also considerably more expensive than scouts. They are better offensively. A little worse at board control during deployment. This unit is in the coversation about being better than scouts because of when they infiltrate. Not being troops hurts them a bit though because that means if you are taking troops it is an extra cost.

Not got the codex to hand, but, I thought that Stealth Suits and Ghostkeels infiltrated slightly differently.

They have to be setup 12” away from an enemy unit, BUT can be setup anywhere outside of the enemy deployment zone.

So, in a sense, if you manage to get the first drop, a unit of 6 stealth suits can setup 6” away from the enemy’s deployment zone and deny most of the central table area to other infiltrators, such as scouts.

However, a unit of 6 stealth suits is considerable more expensive than a unit of scouts, so the trade-off is models on the table.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Will be interesting to see how the kill teams are going to work Primaris wise. They certainly do add extra interest into the range, but how effective they will be, remains to be seen.

Stealth suits compare favorably with scouts in both resilience and damage and mobility. The point I'm making is scouts are not good compared to other infiltrators. Practically any infiltrator data slate would be taken in favor of scouts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
yup there is a slight difference in how they deploy , so you can deny a large area if you go first. But yeah 6 stealth suits is 168 points. 10 Scouts is 110 points, and can do similar if going first and deploying 9" away from the enemy deployment zone. That is why deployment timing infiltrators are so powerful.

And boy oh boy is it ever why I'm excited for Wych Cults to smack into that meta.

Alpha strikers with massive move and Fly backed up by infantry troops that stop Fall Back 80% of the time even if you're a stealth suit with Fly....oh my yes

Wyches seem overpriced at 8 points.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Kdash wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Stealth suits - infiltrate like scouts, but worse because they must be 12" away from the enemy deployment or enemy models. So this comes down to who gets the first drop, but they are also considerably more expensive than scouts. They are better offensively. A little worse at board control during deployment. This unit is in the coversation about being better than scouts because of when they infiltrate. Not being troops hurts them a bit though because that means if you are taking troops it is an extra cost.

Not got the codex to hand, but, I thought that Stealth Suits and Ghostkeels infiltrated slightly differently.

They have to be setup 12” away from an enemy unit, BUT can be setup anywhere outside of the enemy deployment zone.

So, in a sense, if you manage to get the first drop, a unit of 6 stealth suits can setup 6” away from the enemy’s deployment zone and deny most of the central table area to other infiltrators, such as scouts.

However, a unit of 6 stealth suits is considerable more expensive than a unit of scouts, so the trade-off is models on the table.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Will be interesting to see how the kill teams are going to work Primaris wise. They certainly do add extra interest into the range, but how effective they will be, remains to be seen.

Stealth suits compare favorably with scouts in both resilience and damage and mobility. The point I'm making is scouts are not good compared to other infiltrators. Practically any infiltrator data slate would be taken in favor of scouts.

I was just correcting the mistake with the Stealth Suits comment – but I agree, Stealth Suits are generally better than Scouts.

But again, in that instance you have to view it in a T’au vs Marine battle. If T’au get the first drop, the Scouts are screwed, but, if the Marines get the first drop, then likewise, the Stealth Suits are pretty screwed when it comes to using their deployment. After that point, it is generally negligible because their main benefits right now is to control deployment and table areas turn 1.

In that regard, Stealth Suits are better versions of Scouts because they have more staying power, so, they are more likely to still be holding table areas at the start of turn 2, compared to Scouts BUT I’d argue that by that point other aspects of your army would have increased your footprint to deny deep strike options. So again, it comes back to controlling deployment.

The only other unit that can do that in the game right now is Nurglings. Everything else deploys after deployment has finished, or deep strikes. Eldar Rangers can secure ground, but, if they are against Scouts, they can get controlled.

If we are looking at things overall, with the idea that they aren’t facing each other, then yes, I’d argue that Scouts are one of the weakest units that can control the table. BUT, in this instance, I’d argue that table control isn’t that important due to the new beta rules. If I’m playing someone that has deep strike but no deployment options, I’m just going to place my scouts on objectives or out of LoS initially, and then move them around after to deny areas on turn 2. At that point, they become useful for securing certain areas, but not totally needed as other aspects of your list can start to move into areas at that point.

I take Scouts for 1 main reason, and 2 side reasons.
The main reason is to ensure, during deployment, I can use Strike from the Shadows and get my units into the places I want them.
The 2 side reasons are – they can eat overwatch or I can use them as initial objective holders in a maelstrom game.

They are going to die. I accept that. But their entire use for me, and others, is that deployment control.



However, that's a whole discussion for another time and place!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
yup there is a slight difference in how they deploy , so you can deny a large area if you go first. But yeah 6 stealth suits is 168 points. 10 Scouts is 110 points, and can do similar if going first and deploying 9" away from the enemy deployment zone. That is why deployment timing infiltrators are so powerful.

And boy oh boy is it ever why I'm excited for Wych Cults to smack into that meta.

Alpha strikers with massive move and Fly backed up by infantry troops that stop Fall Back 80% of the time even if you're a stealth suit with Fly....oh my yes

The thing is, if I’m using T’au or Marines vs Dark Eldar, I know that you won’t have any deployment control. Because of that, I can easily just setup the Scouts somewhere else on the table. Likewise with the Stealth Suits.

Wytch Cults flying across the table can then either fly past the scouts just outside your deployement zone, or fly across the table and be faced with a Scout screen line just outside my deployment zone. It’s different with Stealth Suits, as I’d just leave them in my deployment behind a kroot screening line far enough away so you can’t charge them, then move forward afterwards.

Just because a unit can infiltrate doesn’t mean it needs to all the time. In games where the only deep strike threat comes from turn 2 or 3, their deployment options aren’t really needed.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Kdash wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Stealth suits - infiltrate like scouts, but worse because they must be 12" away from the enemy deployment or enemy models. So this comes down to who gets the first drop, but they are also considerably more expensive than scouts. They are better offensively. A little worse at board control during deployment. This unit is in the coversation about being better than scouts because of when they infiltrate. Not being troops hurts them a bit though because that means if you are taking troops it is an extra cost.

Not got the codex to hand, but, I thought that Stealth Suits and Ghostkeels infiltrated slightly differently.

They have to be setup 12” away from an enemy unit, BUT can be setup anywhere outside of the enemy deployment zone.

So, in a sense, if you manage to get the first drop, a unit of 6 stealth suits can setup 6” away from the enemy’s deployment zone and deny most of the central table area to other infiltrators, such as scouts.

However, a unit of 6 stealth suits is considerable more expensive than a unit of scouts, so the trade-off is models on the table.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Will be interesting to see how the kill teams are going to work Primaris wise. They certainly do add extra interest into the range, but how effective they will be, remains to be seen.

Stealth suits compare favorably with scouts in both resilience and damage and mobility. The point I'm making is scouts are not good compared to other infiltrators. Practically any infiltrator data slate would be taken in favor of scouts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
yup there is a slight difference in how they deploy , so you can deny a large area if you go first. But yeah 6 stealth suits is 168 points. 10 Scouts is 110 points, and can do similar if going first and deploying 9" away from the enemy deployment zone. That is why deployment timing infiltrators are so powerful.

And boy oh boy is it ever why I'm excited for Wych Cults to smack into that meta.

Alpha strikers with massive move and Fly backed up by infantry troops that stop Fall Back 80% of the time even if you're a stealth suit with Fly....oh my yes

Wyches seem overpriced at 8 points.

The point you're making is somewhat undermined by the fact that you don't seem to actually know what units actually are infiltrators, and which ones have basic deep strike. For someone who pretty much talks only about top-level play, you'd think you might know about the units that have it given that there's only really five, only four are seen (because scouts are superior to the other imperial soup option) and they're at this point in an absolute ton of competitive lists.

SS compare favorably in damage and mobility, but that means pretty much jackall for an infiltrator, which is primarily just there to absorb turn 1 damage, prevent movement especially from turn 1 chargers, and establish board control.

Stealth Suits cost 14 points per wound vs 11 points per wound, and that's pretty good for the extra durability. 21% more cost for 34% more durability. But there's less than half as many bodies on the table (making them worse at that "block movement" job that's half the reason you take them) and critically they're Elites rather than troops. a screening detachment of Scouts can be a Battalion, bringing 5CPs, while at best your stealth suits will contribute to bringing 1 to the table.

I give the edge solidly to the scouts here for actual utility to a list. Comparing the two units in a vacuum is the height of foolishness considering what you want them to do. Against Nurglings and Rangers, which also bring the Troops keyword and comparable cost, I would rate Nurglings as better if I could just transplant them into a different list, but Rangers better in the actual situation, where they come with Eldar HQs (vs Daemon HQs which are cheap and pure tax, and Marine HQs which can be good but are expensive, like BA Smashcaptains)

People will cry about it, either way. 40k players will piss and moan at the mere mention of 'Primaris'.

If they suck, they'll cry. If they're great, they'll cry.

40% of playing Warhammer 40k is whining about other peoples' armies online. Another 40% is whining about your own army. 10% is playing, painting, modeling, etc. And the final 10% is whining about Sisters of Battle and Squats.

So in summary - Stealth suits are better in every way than scouts...yet - it doesn't matter because "opinions". Being a troop is irrelevant. Tau have firewarriors which are amazing - they don't need their infiltrators to be troops because they have actual options when building a list. Or they can just take kroot - who have a scout move and accomplish the same thing as an infiltrating unit - which is to push back enemy deep strikes.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Kdash wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Stealth suits - infiltrate like scouts, but worse because they must be 12" away from the enemy deployment or enemy models. So this comes down to who gets the first drop, but they are also considerably more expensive than scouts. They are better offensively. A little worse at board control during deployment. This unit is in the coversation about being better than scouts because of when they infiltrate. Not being troops hurts them a bit though because that means if you are taking troops it is an extra cost.

Not got the codex to hand, but, I thought that Stealth Suits and Ghostkeels infiltrated slightly differently.

They have to be setup 12” away from an enemy unit, BUT can be setup anywhere outside of the enemy deployment zone.

So, in a sense, if you manage to get the first drop, a unit of 6 stealth suits can setup 6” away from the enemy’s deployment zone and deny most of the central table area to other infiltrators, such as scouts.

However, a unit of 6 stealth suits is considerable more expensive than a unit of scouts, so the trade-off is models on the table.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Will be interesting to see how the kill teams are going to work Primaris wise. They certainly do add extra interest into the range, but how effective they will be, remains to be seen.

Stealth suits compare favorably with scouts in both resilience and damage and mobility. The point I'm making is scouts are not good compared to other infiltrators. Practically any infiltrator data slate would be taken in favor of scouts

And what I’m saying is that outside of Stealth suits and maybe nurglings the answer is no they wouldn’t scouts are better that is how powerful deploying out of your zone during deployment is. As for scouts vs stealth suits. For durability I’m not certain it is a big difference depending on your chapter. For 2 wounds of scouts, you pay 6 points less than 2 wounds of stealth suits, and are better against multi-damage weapons. Now if the scouts are not raven guard -1 to hit helps the stealth teams. Stealth suits get the nod because their -1 to hit is better and they have a 3+ save but the difference is not huge. Offensively you are looking at 8 S 5 shots bs4+ for the cost of 10 bs 3+ S 4 shots. So that really depends on the target, but again nod to stealth suits. I never said scouts were the best just among them. Basically if you run an army that could bring scouts and you don’t you are hurting your chances of winning.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
People will cry about it, either way. 40k players will piss and moan at the mere mention of 'Primaris'.

If they suck, they'll cry. If they're great, they'll cry.

40% of playing Warhammer 40k is whining about other peoples' armies online. Another 40% is whining about your own army. 10% is playing, painting, modeling, etc. And the final 10% is whining about Sisters of Battle and Squats.

I don't think anyone would be crying if primaris marines were good. Except maybe people who like playing marines that are the size of guardsmen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Kdash wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Stealth suits - infiltrate like scouts, but worse because they must be 12" away from the enemy deployment or enemy models. So this comes down to who gets the first drop, but they are also considerably more expensive than scouts. They are better offensively. A little worse at board control during deployment. This unit is in the coversation about being better than scouts because of when they infiltrate. Not being troops hurts them a bit though because that means if you are taking troops it is an extra cost.

Not got the codex to hand, but, I thought that Stealth Suits and Ghostkeels infiltrated slightly differently.

They have to be setup 12” away from an enemy unit, BUT can be setup anywhere outside of the enemy deployment zone.

So, in a sense, if you manage to get the first drop, a unit of 6 stealth suits can setup 6” away from the enemy’s deployment zone and deny most of the central table area to other infiltrators, such as scouts.

However, a unit of 6 stealth suits is considerable more expensive than a unit of scouts, so the trade-off is models on the table.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Will be interesting to see how the kill teams are going to work Primaris wise. They certainly do add extra interest into the range, but how effective they will be, remains to be seen.

Stealth suits compare favorably with scouts in both resilience and damage and mobility. The point I'm making is scouts are not good compared to other infiltrators. Practically any infiltrator data slate would be taken in favor of scouts

And what I’m saying is that outside of Stealth suits and maybe nurglings the answer is no they wouldn’t scouts are better that is how powerful deploying out of your zone during deployment is. As for scouts vs stealth suits. For durability I’m not certain it is a big difference depending on your chapter. For 2 wounds of scouts, you pay 6 points less than 2 wounds of stealth suits, and are better against multi-damage weapons. Now if the scouts are not raven guard -1 to hit helps the stealth teams. Stealth suits get the nod because their -1 to hit is better and they have a 3+ save but the difference is not huge. Offensively you are looking at 8 S 5 shots bs4+ for the cost of 10 bs 3+ S 4 shots. So that really depends on the target, but again nod to stealth suits. I never said scouts were the best just among them. Basically if you run an army that could bring scouts and you don’t you are hurting your chances of winning.

It's 12 bs 4 str 5 shots

 Xenomancers wrote:

I don't think anyone would be crying if primaris marines were good. Except maybe people who like playing marines that are the size of guardsmen.

If Warhammer 40k involved shoving lit matches into your pee-hole, and instead changed to where you didn't have to- people would still cry that the 'old rules were better'.

And the Primaris Marines aren't bad, they're just not flexible like regular Marines. Put them down to do what they're specifically supposed to do, and they work just fine.

 Xenomancers wrote:
So in summary - Stealth suits are better in every way than scouts...yet - it doesn't matter because "opinions". Being a troop is irrelevant. Tau have firewarriors which are amazing - they don't need their infiltrators to be troops because they have actual options when building a list. Or they can just take kroot - who have a scout move and accomplish the same thing as an infiltrating unit - which is to push back enemy deep strikes.

Again except when the opposing army takes scouts and makes it so you cannot make said scout move....offensively it is pretty much a wash. Again your lack of understanding of board control concepts shows why you think gunlines are unbeatable.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Stealth suits compare favorably with scouts in both resilience and damage and mobility. The point I'm making is scouts are not good compared to other infiltrators. Practically any infiltrator data slate would be taken in favor of scouts.

Absolutely not true. Scouts are among the best infiltrators, because they are put there during deployment, beating out the other options for position. Only options that are also deployed as a deployment drop can compete with them, everything else is a long way behind.

You've got it backwards. Scouts would be preferable to practically any other infiltrator dataslate.

It isn’t 12 for the price of 10 it is 12 for the price of 16 S 4 shots (or close enough). You are paying 7 points per shot vs 5.5.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Stealth suits compare favorably with scouts in both resilience and damage and mobility. The point I'm making is scouts are not good compared to other infiltrators. Practically any infiltrator data slate would be taken in favor of scouts.

Absolutely not true. Scouts are among the best infiltrators, because they are put there during deployment, beating out the other options for position. Only options that are also deployed as a deployment drop can compete with them, everything else is a long way behind.

You've got it backwards. Scouts would be preferable to practically any other infiltrator dataslate.

Yes - and lemon russ tanks are bad...please just stop.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I don't think anyone would be crying if primaris marines were good. Except maybe people who like playing marines that are the size of guardsmen.

If Warhammer 40k involved shoving lit matches into your pee-hole, and instead changed to where you didn't have to- people would still cry that the 'old rules were better'.

And the Primaris Marines aren't bad, they're just not flexible like regular Marines. Put them down to do what they're specifically supposed to do, and they work just fine.

most everyone likes 8th better than 7th. Don't you?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Stealth suits compare favorably with scouts in both resilience and damage and mobility. The point I'm making is scouts are not good compared to other infiltrators. Practically any infiltrator data slate would be taken in favor of scouts.

Absolutely not true. Scouts are among the best infiltrators, because they are put there during deployment, beating out the other options for position. Only options that are also deployed as a deployment drop can compete with them, everything else is a long way behind.

You've got it backwards. Scouts would be preferable to practically any other infiltrator dataslate.

Yes - and lemon russ tanks are bad...please just stop.

Yes, they are, but that's for another time and place [also, it's Leman Russ, like my primarch]. I want to know why you think other infiltrators are better than scouts.

Why would I want to bring any of these other infiltrator dataslates? What advantages do they have to counteract the part where they don't beat scouts to position?


Scouts are among the best options for the purpose they serve.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Wyches seem overpriced at 8 points.

In the hands of an experienced player wyches can be a solid unit with the new profile and all the codex combos available.

The_scotsman was also referring to Wych Cult units, not necessarily wyches. He was probably talking about hellions and reavers which can assault in turn 1 quite easily with the appropriate obsession as they have a long range movement, can advance and charge and also re-roll failed charge rolls.