Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Martel732 wrote:
100 pts the way 8th ed is going. Currently costed marines have zero hope vs Drukhari. None. I'm not even sure they are worth 100, because the kabalites killing me from their vehicle are less than that blinged out, but I'll go 100. 130 is insanity at this juncture.

Mmmm10 pts a model I can agree with this.

I was referring to turn 1 deep striking. GK didn't get an exception to the general rule even though deep striking is their main way of arriving on the scene fluffwise.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
With special issue intercessors and mixed squads of primaris I think we will see this become the standard for primaris armies. Primaris as a whole are very weak to meta dominating things like hordes and plasma, but with the right addition of being able to screen valuable models like hellblasters amongst intercessors who themselves will be lethal with SIA I think we will see at least some semi-competitive builds.

Also I feel we will be getting some actually useful stratagems as opposed to Codex marines. Primaris will still lack anti-armor, but that is nothing a little soup can't fix.

Depends on defensive buffs, and delivery methods. If you need to walk your primaris across the field and they get no buff and increase cost I’m not sure they will beat out DA, BA, or Ravenguard.

Now ignore won’t happen but it would be cool if mixing chapters was a thing in squads and allowed you to use chapter specific stratagems. That would make the. Quite intriguing.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
100 pts the way 8th ed is going. Currently costed marines have zero hope vs Drukhari. None. I'm not even sure they are worth 100, because the kabalites killing me from their vehicle are less than that blinged out, but I'll go 100. 130 is insanity at this juncture.

Mmmm10 pts a model I can agree with this.

They'll still be bad, but I can throw more of them into the guns and maybe my enemy will trip on their blood.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I was referring to turn 1 deep striking. GK didn't get an exception to the general rule even though deep striking is their main way of arriving on the scene fluffwise.

Yeah but a deepstrike strat doesn’t give turn 1 deepstrike just the ability to deepstrike, which GK can still do. They can also use shunt or gate turn 1. So they are better off in that area than most other armies at this point. You just cannot start with those turn 1 things off the table.

Now if only anyone cared about deepstriking GK. I know I don't.

It's dakka . we don't jump guns, we jump boltguns.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
GW did a pretty solid job fixing the second worst index in the game, so I'm gonna give them the benefit of the doubt on the worst.

That's a good point. I'm hoping it'll give a sneak peek until how the next CA might handle marines. There aren't many DeathWatch players, but being at the tail end of the codex sprawl may play in their favor.

Really hoping they have real crazy stratagems. We need more crazy stratagems. Declaring every tyranid a fallen is getting old.

 Primark G wrote:
I think primaris with SIA could be kind of broken. I mean, wounding everything on 2+ with 1- with 30" range is really strong.

It is until GW adds 5 ppm to all of them; including the ones not able to use SIA...

Actually, special issue ammo for intercessors would make them actually function at their current price point. It's not broken at all, since they are slinging 10 shots maximum. Right now, their big failing is their non-existent offense.

Intercessors >> tactical Marines

If it really bothers you then just run scouts. You never see anyone complaining about how terribad are Rubric Marines.

 lolman1c wrote:
Since the start of 8th I say abbunch of deathwatch on youtube bat reps and then slowly they started to disappear. Now I haven't seen them in months.

 Primark G wrote:
Intercessors >> tactical Marines

If it really bothers you then just run scouts. You never see anyone complaining about how terribad are Rubric Marines.

Nah people do complain about them. They are probably the best unit in power armor right now though. Compared to 3 kabalites the thing is an absolute joke.

Beyond the fact that they are overcosted - they even have function ability problems such as...have to take a 10 man squad to get a heavy weapon...for this price you can take a battalion worth of troops in ether AM/DE/TAU. AN ABOLSUTE JOKE. Plus using a spell with the sorcerer (WHO DOESN'T EVEN HAVE A WARP BOLTER) you risk killing your own guys if you perils.

Rubrics are so bad.

Rubrics have a lot of great rules. They just need an appropriate price cut. Maybe 16 a model?

I also have issues with all Chaos Marines not having the current Vet stats, so am extra attack is all good with me.

I am not sure about this endless point reducing of troops - although in a world of 4 point guardsmen and 6 point kabalites a Marine is never worth 13 points. His defensive stats are okay, but his damage output is comparably rubbish.

Bolt guns (of all types) need to be upgraded to Storm Bolter stats with no points increase. Then re-balance points as necessary from there.

Storm bolters could become rapid fire 3, maybe a slight points increase if it mattered.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Rubrics have a lot of great rules. They just need an appropriate price cut. Maybe 16 a model?

I also have issues with all Chaos Marines not having the current Vet stats, so am extra attack is all good with me.

kSons are still competitive. Like who is going to bring Mandrakes when trying to build a strong DE list? Every codex has some under-performing units.

Deathwatch will be top tier army for Killteam.

And I suspect that Harlequins and Deathwatch will be released as a boxed set when the ruleset for Killteam comes out.

 Primark G wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Rubrics have a lot of great rules. They just need an appropriate price cut. Maybe 16 a model?

I also have issues with all Chaos Marines not having the current Vet stats, so am extra attack is all good with me.

kSons are still competitive. Like who is going to bring Mandrakes when trying to build a strong DE list? Every codex has some under-performing units.

You do know Mandrakes got even stronger right?

So... there are much better units if we are actually discussing competitive builds.

 Primark G wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Rubrics have a lot of great rules. They just need an appropriate price cut. Maybe 16 a model?

I also have issues with all Chaos Marines not having the current Vet stats, so am extra attack is all good with me.

kSons are still competitive. Like who is going to bring Mandrakes when trying to build a strong DE list? Every codex has some under-performing units.

Mandrakes aren't bad. Infiltrate -1 to hit 5++/6+++save and assault 2 bolters that deal mortals on 6's. They aren't great but they are decent for their cost. Incubi also - not great but decent for their cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Primark G wrote:
So... there are much better units if we are actually discussing competitive builds.

I think you are missing the point - everyones base troop should be competitive - because you are forced to use them. For marines it's the worst because the overcosted troop is also in every other slot starting with the same BS price. Don't say anything about scouts - scouts aren't good ether.

Why don't we wait until the codex is released and we've had a bit of time to at least allow the rules to permeate the neurons in our brain sacks before making snap judgments that are likely wrong?

Just a thought.

We don't even know what the meta looks like right now with the FAQ changes. This is so premature it's like putting a condom on before you've asked the girl out.

It won't, and shouldn't.

 Primark G wrote:
Intercessors >> tactical Marines

If it really bothers you then just run scouts. You never see anyone complaining about how terribad are Rubric Marines.

That's because rubrics are not terrible they have pretty good guns and are extremely hard to kill with small arms with good support built into the unit with stuff like glamour of tzeentch,

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Primark G wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Rubrics have a lot of great rules. They just need an appropriate price cut. Maybe 16 a model?

I also have issues with all Chaos Marines not having the current Vet stats, so am extra attack is all good with me.

kSons are still competitive. Like who is going to bring Mandrakes when trying to build a strong DE list? Every codex has some under-performing units.

Mandrakes aren't bad. Infiltrate -1 to hit 5++/6+++save and assault 2 bolters that deal mortals on 6's. They aren't great but they are decent for their cost. Incubi also - not great but decent for their cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Primark G wrote:
So... there are much better units if we are actually discussing competitive builds.

I think you are missing the point - everyones base troop should be competitive - because you are forced to use them. For marines it's the worst because the overcosted troop is also in every other slot starting with the same BS price. Don't say anything about scouts - scouts aren't good ether.

You thinking scouts are bad reveals a lot about your understanding of competitive games. Scouts are great and every army other than Daemons would run them if they had the option. Their deployment option is very strong.

Almost every army has a scout option - infiltrate is a powerful mechanic. Scouts are one of the weakest version of it.

Scouts are taken in competitive not because they are good - but because a troop choice must be taken and scouts suck slightly less than tactical marines.

Are you trying to tell me that space marine players wouldn't prefer to take rangers? Or Commandoes? Or Stealth Teams? Or Mandrakes? Or kroot?

Scouts have got to be the worst outside of deployment zone option in the entire game. Can you name me one that is worse? (assuming you agree that all of the above units are better than scouts)



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Why don't we wait until the codex is released and we've had a bit of time to at least allow the rules to permeate the neurons in our brain sacks before making snap judgments that are likely wrong?

Just a thought.

We don't even know what the meta looks like right now with the FAQ changes. This is so premature it's like putting a condom on before you've asked the girl out.

At this point nothing will make me happy. If deathwatch is actually good it will just make me angry my marines suck so bad (just like dark angels did for me). If they are bad - it's just another worthless codex that could have been rolled up into codex adept Astarte's with a few paragraphs in a chapter tactic entry.

Well apparently Intercessors from the Deathwatch will have access to special ammo of some kind. That's gonna be pretty awesome even if they go back to their old price.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well apparently Intercessors from the Deathwatch will have access to special ammo of some kind. That's gonna be pretty awesome even if they go back to their old price.

Well if that's the case I know what color I'm painting my unpainted intercessors

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well apparently Intercessors from the Deathwatch will have access to special ammo of some kind. That's gonna be pretty awesome even if they go back to their old price.

Well if that's the case I know what color I'm painting my unpainted intercessors

Pink with Green polkadots because paint has no bearing on rules. If you want to run your Blue Intercessors with the Deathwatch rules, go for it.

The Deathwatch Codex needs a massive board-wide points drop in order to shake up the meta at all.

Every Codex that comes out, Marines are just not in a great spot. Easy access to massed high ap firepower means that super awesome power armor of 3+ gets reduced to a 5+ or 6+ really fast. Even 2+ armor is meh thanks to that. :/