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CapRichard wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

I also just can't get over how ridiculous the idea of adding a single jet pack guy to a squad of footsloggers is. A special weapon guy? A heavy? A melee commando? All that, I get, and in general it makes primaris much less boring. But having one dude floating around with a giant jetpack, keeping pace with guys on foot and trying to not burn them with his jetpack exhaust...what possible tactical use would that have?

Never played the FF Deathwatch RPG? Having a mixed squad with some guys with flight capabilities actually helps a lot when figthing. When you have enemies on high and low ground at the same time, the flying marines can jumpjet and take care of them, not counting different enemy types. On the tabletop sadly all of this gets fluffed away, but in a kill-team game it makes more sense.
Of course, if you're figthing underground or boarding a spaceship, maybe it's better to leave the jump unit home.

In general this edition is removing a lot of customization and Deathwatch is one of the armies that "suffers most" from this. Not that in 7th it actually had tons of it, but still...

Well, you can if the flying guys can leave the rest of the squad to go deal with those enemies. If you're playing an RPG where all players are connected by 5 foot unbreakable chains of adamantium tied around their ankles, having guys with jump packs is far less useful.

What I'm saying is, I'd rather my Deathwatch work like they do in Deathwatch: Overkill, Kill Team, or the FF RPGs. In 7th ed, the terminator squads with their unit sizes starting at 1 were perfect examples of this.

If GW proposes to give me a stratagem identical to the one the custodes Allarus Teminators have, where I can split up my kill team into individual models that act like a unit in and of themselves, I'll be happy as a clam, but if they don't, Deathwatch will continue to be pretty much a failure to translate between skirmish/squad based games (where they act like they should) to a super-clunkified version for the company scale game.

There should be two different kill teams, speedy one and normal one, with the speedy one having bikers and jump packs units.

Having a bike in the middle of a kill team on foot was always stupid.

 Galas wrote:
There should be two different kill teams, speedy one and normal one, with the speedy one having bikers and jump packs units.

Having a bike in the middle of a kill team on foot was always stupid.

And then have a bonus for keeping a single dude on foot hahaha

I have a terrible suspicion that the DW cannot have other Primaris units than these silly mixed squads...

the_scotsman wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
New post on WC regarding Primaris Kill Teams

Mixed squads. Reivers provide Terror Troops, Aggressors provide a buff that removes the penalty to assault weapons for advancing and heavy weapons for moving. Inceptors allow you to fall back and still shoot. Hellblasters don't bring a buff, but being able to add plasma to a Primaris Intercessor squad is pretty freakin' sick.

Yawn.

it's amazing how quickly Deathwatch becomes much, MUCH more one-note and dull when you take out individual customization of model wargear.

I also just can't get over how ridiculous the idea of adding a single jet pack guy to a squad of footsloggers is. A special weapon guy? A heavy? A melee commando? All that, I get, and in general it makes primaris much less boring. But having one dude floating around with a giant jetpack, keeping pace with guys on foot and trying to not burn them with his jetpack exhaust...what possible tactical use would that have?

It's dumb. 8th is becoming 7th again.

I find it mildly amusing to see these threads full of people who deride competitive players for ruining 40k, yet at the same time, they're more than happy to reap the learnings of a group which is focused on exploiting powerful units.

"I'm not a competitive player, I just take competitive units and crush people in my casual games."

I think is just what Primaris needed.

 Crimson wrote:
I have a terrible suspicion that the DW cannot have other Primaris units than these silly mixed squads...

Could be but, the mixed units seem like they could be decent depending on things like max squad size and stratagems available. Inceptors + aggressors could be a mean anti-infantry force with ok mobility.

 Marmatag wrote:
I find it mildly amusing to see these threads full of people who deride competitive players for ruining 40k, yet at the same time, they're more than happy to reap the learnings of a group which is focused on exploiting powerful units.

"I'm not a competitive player, I just take competitive units and crush people in my casual games."

I think competitive players as a rule vastly overestimate how hard it was for them to figure out those "learnings".

the_scotsman wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
New post on WC regarding Primaris Kill Teams

Mixed squads. Reivers provide Terror Troops, Aggressors provide a buff that removes the penalty to assault weapons for advancing and heavy weapons for moving. Inceptors allow you to fall back and still shoot. Hellblasters don't bring a buff, but being able to add plasma to a Primaris Intercessor squad is pretty freakin' sick.

Yawn.

it's amazing how quickly Deathwatch becomes much, MUCH more one-note and dull when you take out individual customization of model wargear.

I also just can't get over how ridiculous the idea of adding a single jet pack guy to a squad of footsloggers is. A special weapon guy? A heavy? A melee commando? All that, I get, and in general it makes primaris much less boring. But having one dude floating around with a giant jetpack, keeping pace with guys on foot and trying to not burn them with his jetpack exhaust...what possible tactical use would that have?

Did you make this complaint with the regular Deathwatch squads?

the_scotsman wrote:
I think competitive players as a rule vastly overestimate how hard it was for them to figure out those "learnings".

Yes. Its not like comparative probability with a d6 system is all that difficult. Although it can be interesting to see people make snap decisions and then turn out completely wrong.

I agree that non-customizable primaris sucks a bit. Deathwatch's only attraction as far as I can see is the "Your dudes" feature. You can customise every character's gear, give him a backstory, and sure he dies like a nameless tactical marine in the first turn, but for at least deployment he was cool.
Not sure it works or can work competitively - but its interesting to a certain mindset.

This is just a bunch of guys in different armour types hanging around together.... for rules. Which feels very gamey.

On the otherhand I might do it because its the way I would run Primaris. They shouldn't have co-opted the old legions.

 Crimson wrote:
I have a terrible suspicion that the DW cannot have other Primaris units than these silly mixed squads...

Given that you can take vanguards, bikers, and terminators as separate units despite them being included in the normal kill team, I'd say it's a safe assumption you will still be able to take the mono unit Primaris datasheets.

Also, these 'silly' mixed squads are looking pretty interesting to me. Hellblasters that need to suffer 12 wounds before the enemy actually kills anything good and get reroll 1's to wound? Yes, please.

The Aggressor option might open some doors with the heavy and assault variants of the Primaris guns that I might not have considered before but I'd need to go through them all.

Reiver stun grenades before you send in a dedicated melee normal marine kill team could have potential as well.

The inceptor one seems okay, but it's basically like taking a very limited insurance policy out on the squad, much like taking a vanguard in a normal kill team.

5-10 Intercessors putting out 10-20 str 4 AP -3 shots at 12" or AP -2 at 18" also looks tasty depending on how bad the SIA tax is on them. The stalker bolt rifles can get up to AP -4 with Vengeance, though the Heavy 1 makes it not as great an option IMO. Hiwever, if there's a target character Stratagem, a unit of those might make for pretty decent character snipers.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I find it mildly amusing to see these threads full of people who deride competitive players for ruining 40k, yet at the same time, they're more than happy to reap the learnings of a group which is focused on exploiting powerful units.

"I'm not a competitive player, I just take competitive units and crush people in my casual games."

I think competitive players as a rule vastly overestimate how hard it was for them to figure out those "learnings".

Then why discuss a meta at all?

Agressor
Inceptor, Plasma x 4
Intercessor, Auto Bolt Rifle x 5

Run and gun S8 plasma.

Wow, having looked at the mixed squad preview GW are really pushing Agressors - they seem to be an autoinclude.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Wow, having looked at the mixed squad preview GW are really pushing Agressors - they seem to be an autoinclude.

They're auto-include in certain situations, which is kinda nice. You don't NEED them. It's just nice to have.

Auto Bolts definitely got better with this codex alone.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
New post on WC regarding Primaris Kill Teams

Mixed squads. Reivers provide Terror Troops, Aggressors provide a buff that removes the penalty to assault weapons for advancing and heavy weapons for moving. Inceptors allow you to fall back and still shoot. Hellblasters don't bring a buff, but being able to add plasma to a Primaris Intercessor squad is pretty freakin' sick.

Yawn.

it's amazing how quickly Deathwatch becomes much, MUCH more one-note and dull when you take out individual customization of model wargear.

I also just can't get over how ridiculous the idea of adding a single jet pack guy to a squad of footsloggers is. A special weapon guy? A heavy? A melee commando? All that, I get, and in general it makes primaris much less boring. But having one dude floating around with a giant jetpack, keeping pace with guys on foot and trying to not burn them with his jetpack exhaust...what possible tactical use would that have?

Did you make this complaint with the regular Deathwatch squads?

Yeah, even more so when they include a marine biker puttering alongside the squad of footsloggers.

the_scotsman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
New post on WC regarding Primaris Kill Teams

Mixed squads. Reivers provide Terror Troops, Aggressors provide a buff that removes the penalty to assault weapons for advancing and heavy weapons for moving. Inceptors allow you to fall back and still shoot. Hellblasters don't bring a buff, but being able to add plasma to a Primaris Intercessor squad is pretty freakin' sick.

Yawn.

it's amazing how quickly Deathwatch becomes much, MUCH more one-note and dull when you take out individual customization of model wargear.

I also just can't get over how ridiculous the idea of adding a single jet pack guy to a squad of footsloggers is. A special weapon guy? A heavy? A melee commando? All that, I get, and in general it makes primaris much less boring. But having one dude floating around with a giant jetpack, keeping pace with guys on foot and trying to not burn them with his jetpack exhaust...what possible tactical use would that have?

Did you make this complaint with the regular Deathwatch squads?

Yeah, even more so when they include a marine biker puttering alongside the squad of footsloggers.

Then don't model it as such. You have some amount of creative freedom as long as you're consistent.

I feel like complaining about the aesthetics of mixed KTs is probably a sign that you should run a different power armoured force.

You have quite a few of them to choose from, after all.

 Primark G wrote:
I think is just what Primaris needed.

Primaris needed to only be viable in the most niche possible space marine force?

They already are viable.

 Primark G wrote:
They already are viable.

Disagree pretty strongly, especially after Drukhari just came to town. I haven't lost to primaris-heavy list yet, and that's with the crappy marines primaris followers look down on.

Martel732 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
They already are viable.

Disagree pretty strongly, especially after Drukhari just came to town. I haven't lost to primaris-heavy list yet, and that's with the crappy marines primaris followers look down on.

Just curious, you losing to mini-marines?

Martel732 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
They already are viable.

Disagree pretty strongly, especially after Drukhari just came to town. I haven't lost to primaris-heavy list yet, and that's with the crappy marines primaris followers look down on.

Yeah I gotta agree with Martel here. Primaris heavy armies are not viable in the competitive sense. They are fine for more mild games, but in a tournament setting or if you are being list tailored against (lol) then yeah it will be a bad day.

I don't usually. I just think mixed kill teams could be better represented by vastly smaller min squad sizes (representing veterans as being less dependent on rigid squad operation) rather than mixed teams forming giant blobbo units that are hindered by individual components as much as they benefit.

My Deathwatch aren't really an army at this point so much as they are one of many factions in my ordo xenos fluffy soup list. I am hoping the new book gives me reasons to want to expand.

Martel732 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
They already are viable.

Disagree pretty strongly, especially after Drukhari just came to town. I haven't lost to primaris-heavy list yet, and that's with the crappy marines primaris followers look down on.

On this, you and I agree.

Primaris Marines a good army do not make.

On a unit-by-unit basis, single elements maybe be viable or have purpose in support of a core composed of ordinary marines and their equipment. As an entire force? I'd avoid them.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
They already are viable.

Disagree pretty strongly, especially after Drukhari just came to town. I haven't lost to primaris-heavy list yet, and that's with the crappy marines primaris followers look down on.

On this, you and I agree.

Primaris Marines a good army do not make.

On a unit-by-unit basis, single elements maybe be viable or have purpose in support of a core composed of ordinary marines and their equipment. As an entire force? I'd avoid them.

Sounds more like everyone is arguing about avoiding them outright, no matter what. Only way I can see why the topic switched to this from single Primaris killteams.

The issue seams to be GW are doing the PR hardsell about how epic Primaris DW will be, but with drukari, riptides and etc entering the meta, primaris suck, more expensive primaris still suck and each failed save just cost you even more points.
More points for better damage only matters if you can survive long enough to make a difference.

Primaris are fine and looking to be even better now with this codex allowing mixed units - that is something a lot of people that like Primaris have really wanted. Get some shoulder pads amd you are good to go now.

 Primark G wrote:
Primaris are fine and looking to be even better now with this codex allowing mixed units - that is something a lot of people that like Primaris have really wanted. Get some shoulder pads amd you are good to go now.

They for sure do look better. Being able to screen your hellblasters and intercessors/reiver being actually killy is a big improvement for primaris. I look forward to trying out the deathwatch rules for them!