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It's more of an issue when you have just one that only works against one target. I think its fine to have a tailored answer across the board, but it is a bit problematic to leave out the 2 factions that define the vast majority of the game.

the_scotsman wrote:
I also hate when you have "specialist stuff" that only works against certain factions in general. If you want to build a unit that counters a particular faction, give them generic rules that do so, don't give them specific rules that just "happen" to give them an advantage, but which are also usable against other factions.

A few examples, here's an anti-Eldar stratagem:

Advanced Targeting Overlays (1CP): pick a unit making a shooting attack. That unit ignores all negative to-hit penalties for the remainder of the phase.

or here's one if you want a unit to be "anti-Daemon"

Smiting Blows (2CP): use this stratagem on a unit in the Fight phase. No invulnerable saves may be taken against melee attacks made by this unit until the end of the phase.

here's an anti-ork stratagem designed to help elite units cut down a horde:

Scythe Protocols: Use this stratagem when a unit shoots in the Shooting Phase. For every model slain by this shooting attack, generate another automatic hit by the same weapon that removed the final wound from that model. These hits cannot themselves generate additional hits.

See how these work against their intended targets very well, but aren't totally invalidated when not fighting them?

I think those are great. I also think they fall into that oft criticized category of standard stratagems. The ones currently are mostly pretty unique and makes the faction feel like it should. And yours, I think, would be overly strong. Imagine taking it to custodes and invalidating invulns with no opposition (even doing that to daemons is brutal).

the_scotsman wrote:
I also hate when you have "specialist stuff" that only works against certain factions in general. If you want to build a unit that counters a particular faction, give them generic rules that do so, don't give them specific rules that just "happen" to give them an advantage, but which are also usable against other factions.

A few examples, here's an anti-Eldar stratagem:

Advanced Targeting Overlays (1CP): pick a unit making a shooting attack. That unit ignores all negative to-hit penalties for the remainder of the phase.

or here's one if you want a unit to be "anti-Daemon"

Smiting Blows (2CP): use this stratagem on a unit in the Fight phase. No invulnerable saves may be taken against melee attacks made by this unit until the end of the phase.

here's an anti-ork stratagem designed to help elite units cut down a horde:

Scythe Protocols: Use this stratagem when a unit shoots in the Shooting Phase. For every model slain by this shooting attack, generate another automatic hit by the same weapon that removed the final wound from that model. These hits cannot themselves generate additional hits.

See how these work against their intended targets very well, but aren't totally invalidated when not fighting them?

That "Eldar" one looks way more like it would punish flyers, every -1 to hit army, Tau infiltrators, popping smoke, any psychic powers that provide it, and any stratagems that provide it. At 1CP, that would be ridiculously powerful.

Lemondish wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I also hate when you have "specialist stuff" that only works against certain factions in general. If you want to build a unit that counters a particular faction, give them generic rules that do so, don't give them specific rules that just "happen" to give them an advantage, but which are also usable against other factions.

A few examples, here's an anti-Eldar stratagem:

Advanced Targeting Overlays (1CP): pick a unit making a shooting attack. That unit ignores all negative to-hit penalties for the remainder of the phase.

or here's one if you want a unit to be "anti-Daemon"

Smiting Blows (2CP): use this stratagem on a unit in the Fight phase. No invulnerable saves may be taken against melee attacks made by this unit until the end of the phase.

here's an anti-ork stratagem designed to help elite units cut down a horde:

Scythe Protocols: Use this stratagem when a unit shoots in the Shooting Phase. For every model slain by this shooting attack, generate another automatic hit by the same weapon that removed the final wound from that model. These hits cannot themselves generate additional hits.

See how these work against their intended targets very well, but aren't totally invalidated when not fighting them?

That "Eldar" one looks way more like it would punish flyers, every -1 to hit army, Tau infiltrators, popping smoke, any psychic powers that provide it, and any stratagems that provide it. At 1CP, that would be ridiculously powerful.

It also is good against jetbikes, especially Shining Spears.

Lemondish wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I also hate when you have "specialist stuff" that only works against certain factions in general. If you want to build a unit that counters a particular faction, give them generic rules that do so, don't give them specific rules that just "happen" to give them an advantage, but which are also usable against other factions.

A few examples, here's an anti-Eldar stratagem:

Advanced Targeting Overlays (1CP): pick a unit making a shooting attack. That unit ignores all negative to-hit penalties for the remainder of the phase.

or here's one if you want a unit to be "anti-Daemon"

Smiting Blows (2CP): use this stratagem on a unit in the Fight phase. No invulnerable saves may be taken against melee attacks made by this unit until the end of the phase.

here's an anti-ork stratagem designed to help elite units cut down a horde:

Scythe Protocols: Use this stratagem when a unit shoots in the Shooting Phase. For every model slain by this shooting attack, generate another automatic hit by the same weapon that removed the final wound from that model. These hits cannot themselves generate additional hits.

See how these work against their intended targets very well, but aren't totally invalidated when not fighting them?

That "Eldar" one looks way more like it would punish flyers, every -1 to hit army, Tau infiltrators, popping smoke, any psychic powers that provide it, and any stratagems that provide it. At 1CP, that would be ridiculously powerful.

Yeah, if you had this on a long range, all heavy weapon unit like say Eldar Dark Reapers a stratagem like this would be ABSURDLY broken for 1cp, but in the context of much shorter ranged, less gunliney armies like Deathwatch you might be able to make it balanced.

this having more broad uses is the point though. Don't make it so half their stratagems go away when not fighting a particular enemy.

Martel732 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
At most of them being 2 CP they are very expensive for those strats. IT is an interesting idea, and very fluffy, but the xenos specific fluff might hurt the army. Again though as a small faction they could be interesting, especially in metas dominated by specific xenos factions.

I am still extremely unconvinced. The problems start with 18 pt models, intercessors, being completely ignorable and most lists have no way to move them effectively. Yes, I suppose you can start with an IG base and soup in primaris, but IG have so much more firepower/pt, I can't understand why anyone would bother.

5 hellblasters with a capt and lt buffing them clear fewer than 4 wounds against a riptide with no 3++ shield up. That's at full strength. You will never get them within 15", and this doesn't take into account savior protocols. Yeah, your primaris are all dead and doing almost nothing in return. What a great use of points that marines are critically short on already.

6 Bolter Aggressors is 222 points. With no support does 10.33 wounds on average to MEQ (93 shots on average with double shoot, *2/3*.5*1/3), so 5 dead inceptors/helbasters, or 10 Tacticals. Which is better than your riptide is doing.

6 plasma inceptors against a riptide with no 3++ kill it on average doing 14 damage (24 shots on average * 2/3 * 2/3 *2/3 = 7.111 wounds at 2 damage each) Against 3++ they do 3.56 wounds, so average of 7 Damage. That is not even including if they are DA and use the +1 damage strat, Which puts them at 10.67 damage against a 3++ save. Again no re-rolls which they are likely to have with a captain at least if not a LT. Remember Riptides won't be at 14 wounds if they overcharge so 10 damage neuters them between dimished stats and no super charging.

10 Ravenguard Helblasters deploy with 15", do 6 damage against 3++ or 12 against a 5++. Again without re-rolls. IF I go first that is a dead riptide.

And again if I'm raven guard or DA and you are shooting me at -1 to hit you aren't killing 3 or 4 models you are killing 2. So your 250 point model is killing 70ish points....super good right.

It is looking like DW is what Imperial players need to counter all these tricksy xenos armies and I am sure there is even more good stuff to find out about for the new codex.

Raven guard is good. Primaris is not. Everything listed off relies on raven guard. The rest of the chapters can get bent, I guess.

Martel732 wrote:
Raven guard is good. Primaris is not. Everything listed off relies on raven guard. The rest of the chapters can get bent, I guess.

That's most of the books though. There's one or two 'competitive' sub factions and the others are mostly there for narrative/open. Kraken/kronos for nids, Sautekh/mephrit Necrons, Cadian/catachan guard, stygies/Mars Admech. It's hard enough getting the factions on par with each other, expecting every sub faction to be equally good is a level of expectations I don't think any games company could meet.

Raven Guard has not won one major event - that is not good.

"If it doesn't won a major even, it is not good"

Dakkadakka in a nutshell.

Martel732 wrote:
Raven guard is good. Primaris is not. Everything listed off relies on raven guard. The rest of the chapters can get bent, I guess.

Deepstriking plasma inceptors are better in DA, BA can do ok with their FNP banner. But yes competitively the rest of the Chapter tactics can get bent, that is how the game works right now. Good Chapters get competitive play, bad ones don't this isn't new, or specific to primaris. You know what is better in Imperial fists than Ravenguard, not much maybe bolter inceptors, Iron hands, nothing, Ultra Marines - maybe with Guiliman. White Scars - nothing. You cannot say x sucks and then refuse to use it the only way it works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Primark G wrote:
Raven Guard has not won one major event - that is not good.

Neither has anything other than Chaos, Eldar, Nids or Imperial Soup. Not arguing they are the best list out there but simply that they can be decent. I'll go in right now that unless something changes you won't see a non-allied imperial army win any major event.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
"If it doesn't won a major even, it is not good"

Dakkadakka in a nutshell.

Yup,

"x is terrible."
"not if you do y"
"but I don't want to do y so it's terrible!"

Also Dakka Dakka.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Primark G wrote:
Raven Guard has not won one major event - that is not good.

What also hasn't won a major event....99.999999% of players. If you are a good player you will win with Ravenguard, you won't win a Major with them unless you are a great player.

I said raven guard was good. So of course that can't be true. Even though it's objectively the best chapter tactic.

We'll have to agree to disagree on primaris. Number crunching aside, they just don't play well on the table, imo. We can blame BA chapter tactics in my case, maybe. Maybe not. I was able to beat the Ravenguard primaris players pretty handily. But that was pre FAQ nerf. Maybe some more data will roll in or some locals will prove me wrong. We'll see. I hope they make primaris better b/c I like the concept and the models.

TO me there is a difference between primaris players and primaris units. I take usually 1 or 2 Primaris units in a larger army. For instance at my last 2k event I ran with 1 5 man Aggressor squad and a 5 man Intercessor squad for camping objectives, which they are good at because they are annoying to remove unless you are spending guns usually better used at other things other than those I run scouts for troops, and think they are much better than Intercessors in general, just not at objective camping in your own deployment zone. So all told I spent 275 points on Primaris units. My DA army (prior to FAQ) had 6 Plasma inceptors and that was it for primaris about 350 points. Some of my older lists were Azzy Helblaster DA, and a Helblaster infiltrating Raven guard. In both cases I was still running at most 500-600 points of Primaris.

SO if you are facing all primaris Ravenguard, then yeah they are middling. But a couple of squads backed by other stuff is pretty powerful. My current list uses Aggressors as I said, but most of my army is Sisters, (~500 points marines, 1500 points sisters)

Though illegal Gonyos BA featuring a large number of Aggressors and allied guard did well. With the more command points now that list could be made legal using the chapter master strat (BA do have that right) or just using a captain, which would be slightly worse but still good. 5+++ on T5 2 wound models is annoying to deal with.

People get way to caught up in the "all primaris" army, instead of treating them like any other unit. An all primaris army is bad, just like All bikes, all terminators, or basically any other super restrictive theme would be. If I had to rank Primaris options

All Hq options F - no reason to ever run these over regular HQ options, they offer very little in trade for worse wargear.

Aggressors - B+/A- chapter dependent, but they put out a huge amount of fire power, are serviceable in Close combat, and surprisingly fast.

Inceptors - B a solid choice, but a bit pricey, the Deepstrike FAQ brings them down in value, because they will either need to start on table, or wait until turn 2. Prior to the FAQ they were an A/A+ in a Dark Angels army, now not quite as good. They are decent in the bolter format, but are outshone by Aggressors in that role. Work well as Imperial fists if you wanted to run IFs.

Helblasters - B, really chapter specific, but good damage output, and AP -4 is very good against some targets. Don't really see the value as much outside of DA or Ravenguard.

Intercessors - C/C+ good objective camping units, ok guns, but nothing amazing here.

Reivers - Haven't tried them, I want to like them, but their grenade is too short in range. They may have some milage in ravenguard as a turn 1 assault threat to screens, but even that is probably a stretch when other options are considered at comparable cost. D+/C-

Vehicles - F Too expensive, When Azzy gave invuls to vehicles I though they could be OK but sans that they die to easy. Then again I'm against taking vehicles in marine armies for the most part with few exceptions. Having no Chapter tactic hurts, and they tend to be pricey.

BA do not have chapter master strat. There is only one: Dante.

BA inceptors can use the Upon Wings of Fire stratagem to redeploy which is kinda cool.

BA reivers are extra punchy, and the carbines are pretty nice. The bat-grapples got hurt by the rulebook FAQ, though.

I want to get some aggressors, but I don't know how BA would use them.

Well and Seth, but due to GWs stupidity taking him screws you out of all relics.SO captain it is (or dante, but he is a bit pricey.)

@ Breng22 - it is a waste of time to argue with him.

About RG - their CT should help them get stuck into melee quick but IMO right now SM do not have any rock solid assault units. The -1 to hit is good but does not work for vehicles. Salamanders and Smurfs have the best CTs since they enhance their shooting which is what SM in general are best at doing. Also Smurfs have won some majors - you can discount it but it is there.

 Primark G wrote:
@ Breng22 - it is a waste of time to argue with him.

About RG - their CT should help them get stuck into melee quick but IMO right now SM do not have any rock solid assault units. The -1 to hit is good but does not work for vehicles. Salamanders and Smurfs have the best CTs since they enhance their shooting which is what SM in general are best at doing. Also Smurfs have won some majors - you can discount it but it is there.

Looking over the lists, I think the reason Ultramarines are strong isn't (entirely at least) about the chapter tactic at all. It's about the characters - primarily Robute - that they have access to that other chapters don't get. In a vacuum, Raven Guard and Salamanders are the best chapter tactics, Salamanders for the tactic, raven guard primarily for the stratagem.

Yeah Guilliman is why they won a lot of events but basically having the keyword Fly is pretty amazing.

@Primark G - I disagree with that simply because no matter how much you try to buff shooting (Smurfs tactics don't buff it at all Rowboat does) guard, eldar, and Tau do it better. So without -1 to hit you get smoked. Also Sallies trait is largely replicated by characters.

Smurfs won 1 major I think and did ok with flyer spam early because of Rowboat + undercosted flyers, which no longer exist.


RG CT keeps them safe while they shoot, and their strat can put some of the better marine shooting units into range to be effective.

The only reason not to take RG is if you want to run Rowboat. Those are the only to Codex chapters to have done anything at all in tournies. I will admit that Marines have only won as ultras, but I don't think with all the points increases to Rowboat and Flyers make that viable any longer.

Well SM as a pure army is noncompetitive now but they can be a good ally. As you said the character buffs are pretty much universal. I would love to see RG have the same level of success but I don't think it will happen - always sounds good though.

 Primark G wrote:
Yeah Guilliman is why they won a lot of events but basically having the keyword Fly is pretty amazing.

Is it?

I mean I am still waiting on the game where it ever meaningfully comes up.

Tyel wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Yeah Guilliman is why they won a lot of events but basically having the keyword Fly is pretty amazing.

Is it?

I mean I am still waiting on the game where it ever meaningfully comes up.

Guess it's really dependant on how much people assault your gunlines and how much of if they manage to tie up. Happened a couple of times to get my hellblaster charged, survived and would have loved to disengage and still shoot with them, same with a couple of dreads. But that was basically a mistake on my part with deployment and with screening, spacing, deepstriking, that kind of things. So in a way, the smurf tactics is nice to compensate errors on your part. It permits gunlines to recover whatever firepower is tied up in close combat. Once you get "better" it comes into play generally less.

I just wanted to bring up how fun Dragonfire rounds will be with Bolt Rifles and the Stalker variant. It would make them not a horrible choice for the most part.

Martel732 wrote:
BA do not have chapter master strat. There is only one: Dante.

BA inceptors can use the Upon Wings of Fire stratagem to redeploy which is kinda cool.

BA reivers are extra punchy, and the carbines are pretty nice. The bat-grapples got hurt by the rulebook FAQ, though.

I want to get some aggressors, but I don't know how BA would use them.

Yeah the inceptor thing could be kind of nice, but they are so fast it might not be needed, but I guess you could start a squad out of LOS turn 1 and then move them with it into range of a target.

For BA reivers seemed ok, but I always come back to why not Death Company? They basically fill similar roles for similar cost. Outside of Ravenguard, my issue with Reivers is that their big advantage (grenades) works at odds with the best way to get them there (deepstrike)

For BA with Aggressors I think you would just deploy probably 2 larger squads around the relic banner, in cover to start and then just run them up the table with character support.

A lot of my BA thoughts right now are centered around scouts and turn 1 assaults using larger scout squads and Death Company to clear chaff, followed up by Sanguinary guard. . Probably allied in with guard for artillery support. If I was trying for pure marines I was looking at replacing that guard element with some Raven guard support for more durability in the back field, and extra turn 1 shooting support