In the Leman Russ book, Leman Russ admitted that he got beat by the lion. I don't want this to turn into a pissing contest. If you are being totally fair, you'd have to say Russ and the Lion are completely evenly matched. They fought for weeks completely even matched and then the sucker punched ended it. I wish writers would take their ego's out of the writing. and I'm a world eaters player so 'I' am not biased here.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: In the Leman Russ book, Leman Russ admitted that he got beat by the lion. I don't want this to turn into a pissing contest. If you are being totally fair, you'd have to say Russ and the Lion are completely evenly matched. They fought for weeks completely even matched and then the sucker punched ended it. I wish writers would take their ego's out of the writing. and I'm a world eaters player so 'I' am not biased here.
Wasn't there another occasion where there was some sort of war game exercise and the Space Wolves got soundly beaten by the Dark Angels, even though duel between Russ and the Lion ended in a tie?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: In the Leman Russ book, Leman Russ admitted that he got beat by the lion. I don't want this to turn into a pissing contest. If you are being totally fair, you'd have to say Russ and the Lion are completely evenly matched. They fought for weeks completely even matched and then the sucker punched ended it. I wish writers would take their ego's out of the writing. and I'm a world eaters player so 'I' am not biased here.
Wasn't there another occasion where there was some sort of war game exercise and the Space Wolves got soundly beaten by the Dark Angels, even though duel between Russ and the Lion ended in a tie?
Yeah I think so, can't remember though, was that during the crusade?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: In the Leman Russ book, Leman Russ admitted that he got beat by the lion. I don't want this to turn into a pissing contest. If you are being totally fair, you'd have to say Russ and the Lion are completely evenly matched. They fought for weeks completely even matched and then the sucker punched ended it. I wish writers would take their ego's out of the writing. and I'm a world eaters player so 'I' am not biased here.
Biased writing, it was a book about the space wolves, also the fight didnt last weeks, thats imperial "legend" not fact, primarchs leman russ shows what ACTUALLY happened, yes Russ got beat, soundly, but Lion didnt take the killing blow so it degenerated into a brawl, which Russ still didnt win, THEN the "sucker punch" happened.
The Irony of the whole thing is the Lion was trying to teach Russ the EXACT thing that Russ attacked Angron over, that he could be more than "just" a killer, guess its at least consistent that Russ is a hypocrite of the highest order.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: In the Leman Russ book, Leman Russ admitted that he got beat by the lion. I don't want this to turn into a pissing contest. If you are being totally fair, you'd have to say Russ and the Lion are completely evenly matched. They fought for weeks completely even matched and then the sucker punched ended it. I wish writers would take their ego's out of the writing. and I'm a world eaters player so 'I' am not biased here.
Biased writing, it was a book about the space wolves, also the fight didnt last weeks, thats imperial "legend" not fact, primarchs leman russ shows what ACTUALLY happened, yes Russ got beat, soundly, but Lion didnt take the killing blow so it degenerated into a brawl, which Russ still didnt win, THEN the "sucker punch" happened.
The Irony of the whole thing is the Lion was trying to teach Russ the EXACT thing that Russ attacked Angron over, that he could be more than "just" a killer, guess its at least consistent that Russ is a hypocrite of the highest order.
It did last weeks, unless you can quote a source that says otherwise. Yeah Leman Russ shows what actually happened, hence the biased writing lol, rather than actual lore. Thats exactly what I'm talking about. I never said Russ won, I'm saying the Lion didn't. The Lion wasn't trying to teach him anything, it had nothing to do with the Angron situation. Again now its you that is just making up gak because you don't like Russ. Again this is what I'm talking about.
Formosa wrote: ...Russ is a hypocrite of the highest order.
I wish I could give some sort of dakka dakka gold for this comment. It is just so true on so many levels that I could spend days giving examples of why it is true.
I don't hate Russ, although I will say that the whole Prospero thing left me with a sour taste in my mouth and made me seriously question the content of his character. But even for people who love Russ and the Space Wolves, you cannot deny that they are absolutely MASSIVE hypocrites, in addition to being extremely arrogant.
Formosa wrote: ...Russ is a hypocrite of the highest order.
I wish I could give some sort of dakka dakka gold for this comment. It is just so true on so many levels that I could spend days giving examples of why it is true.
I don't hate Russ, although I will say that the whole Prospero thing left me with a sour taste in my mouth and made me seriously question the content of his character. But even for people who love Russ and the Space Wolves, you cannot deny that they are absolutely MASSIVE hypocrites, in addition to being extremely arrogant.
Hypocritical yes, though I have no sympathy whatsoever for Magnus, but anyways I'm talking about the fight between Russ and the Lion.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: In the Leman Russ book, Leman Russ admitted that he got beat by the lion. I don't want this to turn into a pissing contest. If you are being totally fair, you'd have to say Russ and the Lion are completely evenly matched. They fought for weeks completely even matched and then the sucker punched ended it. I wish writers would take their ego's out of the writing. and I'm a world eaters player so 'I' am not biased here.
Biased writing, it was a book about the space wolves, also the fight didnt last weeks, thats imperial "legend" not fact, primarchs leman russ shows what ACTUALLY happened, yes Russ got beat, soundly, but Lion didnt take the killing blow so it degenerated into a brawl, which Russ still didnt win, THEN the "sucker punch" happened.
The Irony of the whole thing is the Lion was trying to teach Russ the EXACT thing that Russ attacked Angron over, that he could be more than "just" a killer, guess its at least consistent that Russ is a hypocrite of the highest order.
It did last weeks, unless you can quote a source that says otherwise. Yeah Leman Russ shows what actually happened, hence the biased writing lol, rather than actual lore. Thats exactly what I'm talking about. I never said Russ won, I'm saying the Lion didn't. The Lion wasn't trying to teach him anything, it had nothing to do with the Angron situation. Again now its you that is just making up gak because you don't like Russ. Again this is what I'm talking about.
Its didnt last weeks
Ref: Primarchs Leman Russ.
There you go.
What you have is the Index Astartes fluff, fluff written from the perspective of someone 10k years after the events in question and is basically a legend, when the same index astartes states that Russ chopped the head off a warlord titan we know its not quite true, its exagerated, something the Wolves are well known for doing.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: In the Leman Russ book, Leman Russ admitted that he got beat by the lion. I don't want this to turn into a pissing contest. If you are being totally fair, you'd have to say Russ and the Lion are completely evenly matched. They fought for weeks completely even matched and then the sucker punched ended it. I wish writers would take their ego's out of the writing. and I'm a world eaters player so 'I' am not biased here.
Biased writing, it was a book about the space wolves, also the fight didnt last weeks, thats imperial "legend" not fact, primarchs leman russ shows what ACTUALLY happened, yes Russ got beat, soundly, but Lion didnt take the killing blow so it degenerated into a brawl, which Russ still didnt win, THEN the "sucker punch" happened.
The Irony of the whole thing is the Lion was trying to teach Russ the EXACT thing that Russ attacked Angron over, that he could be more than "just" a killer, guess its at least consistent that Russ is a hypocrite of the highest order.
It did last weeks, unless you can quote a source that says otherwise. Yeah Leman Russ shows what actually happened, hence the biased writing lol, rather than actual lore. Thats exactly what I'm talking about. I never said Russ won, I'm saying the Lion didn't. The Lion wasn't trying to teach him anything, it had nothing to do with the Angron situation. Again now its you that is just making up gak because you don't like Russ. Again this is what I'm talking about.
Its didnt last weeks
Ref: Primarchs Leman Russ.
There you go.
What you have is the Index Astartes fluff, fluff written from the perspective of someone 10k years after the events in question and is basically a legend, when the same index astartes states that Russ chopped the head off a warlord titan we know its not quite true, its exagerated, something the Wolves are well known for doing.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: In the Leman Russ book, Leman Russ admitted that he got beat by the lion. I don't want this to turn into a pissing contest. If you are being totally fair, you'd have to say Russ and the Lion are completely evenly matched. They fought for weeks completely even matched and then the sucker punched ended it. I wish writers would take their ego's out of the writing. and I'm a world eaters player so 'I' am not biased here.
Biased writing, it was a book about the space wolves, also the fight didnt last weeks, thats imperial "legend" not fact, primarchs leman russ shows what ACTUALLY happened, yes Russ got beat, soundly, but Lion didnt take the killing blow so it degenerated into a brawl, which Russ still didnt win, THEN the "sucker punch" happened.
The Irony of the whole thing is the Lion was trying to teach Russ the EXACT thing that Russ attacked Angron over, that he could be more than "just" a killer, guess its at least consistent that Russ is a hypocrite of the highest order.
It did last weeks, unless you can quote a source that says otherwise. Yeah Leman Russ shows what actually happened, hence the biased writing lol, rather than actual lore. Thats exactly what I'm talking about. I never said Russ won, I'm saying the Lion didn't. The Lion wasn't trying to teach him anything, it had nothing to do with the Angron situation. Again now its you that is just making up gak because you don't like Russ. Again this is what I'm talking about.
Its didnt last weeks
Ref: Primarchs Leman Russ.
There you go.
What you have is the Index Astartes fluff, fluff written from the perspective of someone 10k years after the events in question and is basically a legend, when the same index astartes states that Russ chopped the head off a warlord titan we know its not quite true, its exagerated, something the Wolves are well known for doing.
You have an actual quote?
The entire book is the quote, want me to quote the entire book??
Delvarus Centurion wrote: In the Leman Russ book, Leman Russ admitted that he got beat by the lion. I don't want this to turn into a pissing contest. If you are being totally fair, you'd have to say Russ and the Lion are completely evenly matched. They fought for weeks completely even matched and then the sucker punched ended it. I wish writers would take their ego's out of the writing. and I'm a world eaters player so 'I' am not biased here.
Biased writing, it was a book about the space wolves, also the fight didnt last weeks, thats imperial "legend" not fact, primarchs leman russ shows what ACTUALLY happened, yes Russ got beat, soundly, but Lion didnt take the killing blow so it degenerated into a brawl, which Russ still didnt win, THEN the "sucker punch" happened.
The Irony of the whole thing is the Lion was trying to teach Russ the EXACT thing that Russ attacked Angron over, that he could be more than "just" a killer, guess its at least consistent that Russ is a hypocrite of the highest order.
It did last weeks, unless you can quote a source that says otherwise. Yeah Leman Russ shows what actually happened, hence the biased writing lol, rather than actual lore. Thats exactly what I'm talking about. I never said Russ won, I'm saying the Lion didn't. The Lion wasn't trying to teach him anything, it had nothing to do with the Angron situation. Again now its you that is just making up gak because you don't like Russ. Again this is what I'm talking about.
Its didnt last weeks
Ref: Primarchs Leman Russ.
There you go.
What you have is the Index Astartes fluff, fluff written from the perspective of someone 10k years after the events in question and is basically a legend, when the same index astartes states that Russ chopped the head off a warlord titan we know its not quite true, its exagerated, something the Wolves are well known for doing.
You have an actual quote?
The entire book is the quote, want me to quote the entire book??
Delvarus Centurion wrote: In the Leman Russ book, Leman Russ admitted that he got beat by the lion. I don't want this to turn into a pissing contest. If you are being totally fair, you'd have to say Russ and the Lion are completely evenly matched. They fought for weeks completely even matched and then the sucker punched ended it. I wish writers would take their ego's out of the writing. and I'm a world eaters player so 'I' am not biased here.
Biased writing, it was a book about the space wolves, also the fight didnt last weeks, thats imperial "legend" not fact, primarchs leman russ shows what ACTUALLY happened, yes Russ got beat, soundly, but Lion didnt take the killing blow so it degenerated into a brawl, which Russ still didnt win, THEN the "sucker punch" happened.
The Irony of the whole thing is the Lion was trying to teach Russ the EXACT thing that Russ attacked Angron over, that he could be more than "just" a killer, guess its at least consistent that Russ is a hypocrite of the highest order.
It did last weeks, unless you can quote a source that says otherwise. Yeah Leman Russ shows what actually happened, hence the biased writing lol, rather than actual lore. Thats exactly what I'm talking about. I never said Russ won, I'm saying the Lion didn't. The Lion wasn't trying to teach him anything, it had nothing to do with the Angron situation. Again now its you that is just making up gak because you don't like Russ. Again this is what I'm talking about.
Its didnt last weeks
Ref: Primarchs Leman Russ.
There you go.
What you have is the Index Astartes fluff, fluff written from the perspective of someone 10k years after the events in question and is basically a legend, when the same index astartes states that Russ chopped the head off a warlord titan we know its not quite true, its exagerated, something the Wolves are well known for doing.
You have an actual quote?
The entire book is the quote, want me to quote the entire book??
A no would suffice.
What EXACTLY are you asking me to quote, because if its "the fight lasted weeks" then the book shows it did not VERY VERY clearly, in fact I cant remember a reference to it lasting weeks, the index astartes article says days, and even that was wrong.
greatbigtree wrote: Page 187, "The bastard beat me bloody. I have no doubt he could do it again." - Russ
Exactly, unbelievably bias lol. They fought for weeks or days they would both have to be handling each other for that length of time and then the suckerpunch happened to end it. The writer is so biased it isn't funny. If he wrote that about Angron then okay but the Lion, pure fantasy. The lore is the lore and its stated that the fight was won on a suckerpunch and now he's saying he beat him bloody and can do it again. It takes some delusion not to see the bias there.
greatbigtree wrote: Page 187, "The bastard beat me bloody. I have no doubt he could do it again." - Russ
Exactly, unbelievably bias lol. They fought for weeks or days they would both have to be handling each other for that length of time and then the suckerpunch happened to end it. The writer is so biased it isn't funny. If he wrote that about Angron then okay but the Lion, pure fantasy.
The only fantasy here is your perception of Bias, this was a space wolf book about space wolves and showed them in both a positive and negative light, yes Russ lost to the Lion, but Lion has been shown to be a top tier CC primarch for quite some time now, this should not be a surprise.
As you think its Bias, please explain EXACTLY why you think its bias, as you are coming across as a wolf fanboy that is upset that Russ got beat.... again.
greatbigtree wrote: Page 187, "The bastard beat me bloody. I have no doubt he could do it again." - Russ
Exactly, unbelievably bias lol. They fought for weeks or days they would both have to be handling each other for that length of time and then the suckerpunch happened to end it. The writer is so biased it isn't funny. If he wrote that about Angron then okay but the Lion, pure fantasy.
The only fantasy here is your perception of Bias, this was a space wolf book about space wolves and showed them in both a positive and negative light, yes Russ lost to the Lion, but Lion has been shown to be a top tier CC primarch for quite some time now, this should not be a surprise.
As you think its Bias, please explain EXACTLY why you think its bias, as you are coming across as a wolf fanboy that is upset that Russ got beat.... again.
You are the one emotionally invested in fiction. I'm not a Space Wolves fanboy at all, Russ crawled away from Angron on his hands and knees and that was a good day for me. You are obviously just as biased as the author. I explained exactly why its biased but a biased person isn't going to be swayed by logic. I don't care about Russ I care about the lore and accurate writing. And I'm not anti-Lion, I loved decent of angels and fallen angels.
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greatbigtree wrote: The book also points out Russ's overconfidence. Pg 42, "I'll draw the fool into a trap..." in which he expected to defeat the Lion quickly.
Also, the beat me bloody part is where he points out the fight was over quickly. Not days or weeks.
You are quoting a book on which we are debating the biased nature of the book, quoting it is irrelevant unless you quote things that show that its not biased.
You are the one emotionally invested in fiction. I'm not a Space Wolves fanboy at all, Russ crawled away from Angron on his hands and knees and that was a good day for me. You are obviously just as biased as the author. I explained exactly why its biased but a biased person isn't going to be swayed by logic. I don't care about Russ I care about the lore and accurate writing. And I'm not anti-Lion, I loved decent of angels and fallen angels.
You are not using logic Delvarus, you are making sweeping statements with no substance, you claim the author is biased and refuse to accept examples that show that the story is infact consistent with the old one, just with more detail is its not a legendary look back but actually the event itself as it happened.
You are quoting a book on which we are debating the biased nature of the book, quoting it is irrelevant unless you quote things that show that its not biased.
And this is a perfect example of what im talking about, you claim that the author is biased but provide no proof or anything really to support your statement, I have asked you twice now to explain EXACTLY why you think they are biased, so explain.
You are the one emotionally invested in fiction. I'm not a Space Wolves fanboy at all, Russ crawled away from Angron on his hands and knees and that was a good day for me. You are obviously just as biased as the author. I explained exactly why its biased but a biased person isn't going to be swayed by logic. I don't care about Russ I care about the lore and accurate writing. And I'm not anti-Lion, I loved decent of angels and fallen angels.
You are not using logic Delvarus, you are making sweeping statements with no substance, you claim the author is biased and refuse to accept examples that show that the story is infact consistent with the old one, just with more detail is its not a legendary look back but actually the event itself as it happened.
You are quoting a book on which we are debating the biased nature of the book, quoting it is irrelevant unless you quote things that show that its not biased.
And this is a perfect example of what im talking about, you claim that the author is biased but provide no proof or anything really to support your statement, I have asked you twice now to explain EXACTLY why you think they are biased, so explain.
Show me where it says in the lore that Russ got beat and that the Lion could do it again. You actually haven't given any evidence other than the weeks/days thing. I gave you the only examples such as 'lore' where the two Primarchs were evenly matched until the suckerpunch. Where are the sweeping statements? Plenty of substance you just choose to ignore it and make up stuff like the Lion wanted to teach Russ a lesson like in the case of Angron. The author showed more detail and that's that, you are just completely ignoring the actual lore. You are emotional, to the point of making stuff up so your biased point of view is somehow true.
And the lore before was biased by being created by some imperial servant some tens of thousands of years down the line as a legend. The specifics of the book clarify things, and shows things did not occur specifically as you mentioned.
The bias would be thinking that every primarch is somehow equal to each other, which the Imperials of the future would think. The legends won't say that Russ was a hypocrite, or that Lion had issues trusting people and socializing. They'll mention that they were the greatest heroes of the Imperium ind that they could do groundbreaking feats of power that no mortal man could hope to accomplish in their lifetime.
To think otherwise is to insult the legacy of the Emperor and his own personal sons, many of which gave their lives over to fight against evil. It would be quite heretical as well to many scholars of the Imperium, well known for altering data or changing words to fit their own narrative rather then any sort of factual nature.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: And the lore before was biased by being created by some imperial servant some tens of thousands of years down the line as a legend. The specifics of the book clarify things, and shows things did not occur specifically as you mentioned.
The bias would be thinking that every primarch is somehow equal to each other, which the Imperials of the future would think. The legends won't say that Russ was a hypocrite, or that Lion had issues trusting people and socializing. They'll mention that they were the greatest heroes of the Imperium ind that they could do groundbreaking feats of power that no mortal man could hope to accomplish in their lifetime.
To think otherwise is to insult the legacy of the Emperor and his own personal sons, many of which gave their lives over to fight against evil. It would be quite heretical as well to many scholars of the Imperium, well known for altering data or changing words to fit their own narrative rather then any sort of factual nature.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Is anyone noticing a pattern that continues again and again to these threads or is it just me?
Anyways, the book shows that Russ got beat and the Lion could do it again. The book is an example, and you are ignoring said example why exactly?
Thats my question too, he claims bias... cos bias!!! while utterly ignoring context.
And you claim 'not biased' while ignoring lore. I'm ignoring the context of the book because its hard to debate whether the book itself is biased if you are using the book for the context. Give me some context other than the 'actual' book lol Plus you make stuff up.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: And the lore before was biased by being created by some imperial servant some tens of thousands of years down the line as a legend. The specifics of the book clarify things, and shows things did not occur specifically as you mentioned.
The bias would be thinking that every primarch is somehow equal to each other, which the Imperials of the future would think. The legends won't say that Russ was a hypocrite, or that Lion had issues trusting people and socializing. They'll mention that they were the greatest heroes of the Imperium ind that they could do groundbreaking feats of power that no mortal man could hope to accomplish in their lifetime.
To think otherwise is to insult the legacy of the Emperor and his own personal sons, many of which gave their lives over to fight against evil. It would be quite heretical as well to many scholars of the Imperium, well known for altering data or changing words to fit their own narrative rather then any sort of factual nature.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Is anyone noticing a pattern that continues again and again to these threads or is it just me?
Anyways, the book shows that Russ got beat and the Lion could do it again. The book is an example, and you are ignoring said example why exactly?
Thats my question too, he claims bias... cos bias!!! while utterly ignoring context.
And you claim 'not biased' while ignoring lore. I'm ignoring the context of the book because its hard to debate whether the book itself is biased if you are using the book for the context. Give me some context other than the 'actual' book lol Plus you make stuff up.
"You do not have to play to this reputation brother, you can drop the pretense at anytime you choose" Lion El'Johnson
"all I see is delusion brother, so much energy so poorly directed" Lion
"you treat all as a game, that is why malcador sent for me, malcador cannot trust you, no one can trust you, your legion is a rabble that would brawl among themselves if you were not there to smack their heads together" Lion
"If only they were more like yours" Russ
"yes!, Yes is that so hard to imagine"
Hmmmm sounds very familiar, almost like what Russ said to Angron, so much for making stuff up eh, seems like Lion was trying to teach Russ a similar lesson to the one that Russ was trying to teach Angron.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: And the lore before was biased by being created by some imperial servant some tens of thousands of years down the line as a legend. The specifics of the book clarify things, and shows things did not occur specifically as you mentioned.
The bias would be thinking that every primarch is somehow equal to each other, which the Imperials of the future would think. The legends won't say that Russ was a hypocrite, or that Lion had issues trusting people and socializing. They'll mention that they were the greatest heroes of the Imperium ind that they could do groundbreaking feats of power that no mortal man could hope to accomplish in their lifetime.
To think otherwise is to insult the legacy of the Emperor and his own personal sons, many of which gave their lives over to fight against evil. It would be quite heretical as well to many scholars of the Imperium, well known for altering data or changing words to fit their own narrative rather then any sort of factual nature.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Is anyone noticing a pattern that continues again and again to these threads or is it just me?
Anyways, the book shows that Russ got beat and the Lion could do it again. The book is an example, and you are ignoring said example why exactly?
Thats my question too, he claims bias... cos bias!!! while utterly ignoring context.
And you claim 'not biased' while ignoring lore. I'm ignoring the context of the book because its hard to debate whether the book itself is biased if you are using the book for the context. Give me some context other than the 'actual' book lol Plus you make stuff up.
Me Ignoring lore hahahahhahahhahahahahh, your funny, your the one dismissing a whole book because you think its "biased", so far your entire argument basically resolves around "nuh uh, you are", you see both I and Zebio have told you why one story is incosistent with the other, but you are choosing to Ignore it, so much for "following the lore"
"You do not have to play to this reputation brother, you can drop the pretense at anytime you choose" Lion El'Johnson
"all I see is delusion brother, so much energy so poorly directed" Lion
"you treat all as a game, that is why malcador sent for me, malcador cannot trust you, no one can trust you, your legion is a rabble that would brawl among themselves if you were not there to smack their heads together" Lion
"If only they were more like yours" Russ
"yes!, Yes is that so hard to imagine"
Hmmmm sounds very familiar, almost like what Russ said to Angron, so much for making stuff up eh, seems like Lion was trying to teach Russ a similar lesson to the one that Russ was trying to teach Angron.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: And the lore before was biased by being created by some imperial servant some tens of thousands of years down the line as a legend. The specifics of the book clarify things, and shows things did not occur specifically as you mentioned.
The bias would be thinking that every primarch is somehow equal to each other, which the Imperials of the future would think. The legends won't say that Russ was a hypocrite, or that Lion had issues trusting people and socializing. They'll mention that they were the greatest heroes of the Imperium ind that they could do groundbreaking feats of power that no mortal man could hope to accomplish in their lifetime.
To think otherwise is to insult the legacy of the Emperor and his own personal sons, many of which gave their lives over to fight against evil. It would be quite heretical as well to many scholars of the Imperium, well known for altering data or changing words to fit their own narrative rather then any sort of factual nature.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Is anyone noticing a pattern that continues again and again to these threads or is it just me?
Anyways, the book shows that Russ got beat and the Lion could do it again. The book is an example, and you are ignoring said example why exactly?
Thats my question too, he claims bias... cos bias!!! while utterly ignoring context.
And you claim 'not biased' while ignoring lore. I'm ignoring the context of the book because its hard to debate whether the book itself is biased if you are using the book for the context. Give me some context other than the 'actual' book lol Plus you make stuff up.
"You do not have to play to this reputation brother, you can drop the pretense at anytime you choose" Lion El'Johnson
"all I see is delusion brother, so much energy so poorly directed" Lion
"you treat all as a game, that is why malcador sent for me, malcador cannot trust you, no one can trust you, your legion is a rabble that would brawl among themselves if you were not there to smack their heads together" Lion
"If only they were more like yours" Russ
"yes!, Yes is that so hard to imagine"
Hmmmm sounds very familiar, almost like what Russ said to Angron, so much for making stuff up eh, seems like Lion was trying to teach Russ a similar lesson to the one that Russ was trying to teach Angron.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: And the lore before was biased by being created by some imperial servant some tens of thousands of years down the line as a legend. The specifics of the book clarify things, and shows things did not occur specifically as you mentioned.
The bias would be thinking that every primarch is somehow equal to each other, which the Imperials of the future would think. The legends won't say that Russ was a hypocrite, or that Lion had issues trusting people and socializing. They'll mention that they were the greatest heroes of the Imperium ind that they could do groundbreaking feats of power that no mortal man could hope to accomplish in their lifetime.
To think otherwise is to insult the legacy of the Emperor and his own personal sons, many of which gave their lives over to fight against evil. It would be quite heretical as well to many scholars of the Imperium, well known for altering data or changing words to fit their own narrative rather then any sort of factual nature.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Is anyone noticing a pattern that continues again and again to these threads or is it just me?
Anyways, the book shows that Russ got beat and the Lion could do it again. The book is an example, and you are ignoring said example why exactly?
Thats my question too, he claims bias... cos bias!!! while utterly ignoring context.
And you claim 'not biased' while ignoring lore. I'm ignoring the context of the book because its hard to debate whether the book itself is biased if you are using the book for the context. Give me some context other than the 'actual' book lol Plus you make stuff up.
Me Ignoring lore hahahahhahahhahahahahh, your funny, your the one dismissing a whole book because you think its "biased", so far your entire argument basically resolves around "nuh uh, you are", you see both I and Zebio have told you why one story is incosistent with the other, but you are choosing to Ignore it, so much for "following the lore"
"You do not have to play to this reputation brother, you can drop the pretense at anytime you choose" Lion El'Johnson
"all I see is delusion brother, so much energy so poorly directed" Lion
"you treat all as a game, that is why malcador sent for me, malcador cannot trust you, no one can trust you, your legion is a rabble that would brawl among themselves if you were not there to smack their heads together" Lion
"If only they were more like yours" Russ
"yes!, Yes is that so hard to imagine"
Hmmmm sounds very familiar, almost like what Russ said to Angron, so much for making stuff up eh, seems like Lion was trying to teach Russ a similar lesson to the one that Russ was trying to teach Angron.
I see insults, I don't see lessons.
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Void__Dragon wrote: Chris Wraight wrote that book, and Chris Wraight is a huge Space Wolf fan lmao. He writes about them more than pretty much any other Legion.
Well he may have been told to write that nonsense. Plus how do you know he's not a bigger DA fan, could be possible.
I need to reread the book, but if Russ says “he beat me bloody and could do it again” couldn’t it just be Russ’s opinion? Or does it state outside of dialogue that Russ got the beating of his life?
"For I was gullible, and my brother taught me the error of my ways." - Russ, pg 231
Automatically Appended Next Post: Pg 116: "... there it was, mounted to the wall. A most heinous depiction of the ice world's second most feared monster. The Trollsquared. It was as though a troll had consumed another, and their digestive and regenerative might was playing out in horrid splendor within the carving." - Russ
"For I was gullible, and my brother taught me the error of my ways." - Russ, pg 231
Automatically Appended Next Post: Pg 116: "... there it was, mounted to the wall. A most heinous depiction of the ice world's second most feared monster. The Trollsquared. It was as though a troll had consumed another, and their digestive and regenerative might was playing out in horrid splendor within the carving." - Russ
Yeah he learned a lesson, as he laughed at his stupidity, the old lore even alludes to that but the Lion didn't intend to teach him a lesson, he was just defending himself.
@Delvarus: sometimes fights happen because one persons help is seens as another persons insult. So yes, the Lion was trying tonteach a lesson, and yes just like anyone woukd expect, Russ saw these as an insult leading to a fight.
As per bias, this story wasn't written in a vacuum. A plot point like this is almost certain to have been discussed, and was probably proposed at one of the black library meetings between authors to plan out the heresy series. If Russ got beat, then thats bith the new canon, and it was probably decided upon to that it will support a different plot point later on. It serves a purpose for the story as a whole, not just for these two characters.
Came for the bait, contracted cancer from the delirious defence of objective material as 'biased'.
SW fanboys just never learn huh?
Guess they share that with their primarch....
In other factual news, if you take any Post-Heresy story of the primarchs seriously you are forgetting that the Imperium LIVES on Propaganda.
I'd say the notion of him being 'suckerpunched' after any length of a fight was biased. How the hell can a punch mid fight be unexpected (as in you weren't expecting them to try and hit you, not that you didn't see it coming?)
JamesY wrote: I'd say the notion of him being 'suckerpunched' after any length of a fight was biased. How the hell can a punch mid fight be unexpected (as in you weren't expecting them to try and hit you, not that you didn't see it coming?)
And wolf fanboys always forget who threw the first sucker punch .... Russ
"For I was gullible, and my brother taught me the error of my ways." - Russ, pg 231
Automatically Appended Next Post: Pg 116: "... there it was, mounted to the wall. A most heinous depiction of the ice world's second most feared monster. The Trollsquared. It was as though a troll had consumed another, and their digestive and regenerative might was playing out in horrid splendor within the carving." - Russ
Yeah he learned a lesson, as he laughed at his stupidity, the old lore even alludes to that but the Lion didn't intend to teach him a lesson, he was just defending himself.
Carry on ignoring direct quotes from the fluff that you are ignoring, while deriding others for not following you “head canon” and claiming that you are being “logical” by making empty statements and providing no evidence to back said statments.
"For I was gullible, and my brother taught me the error of my ways." - Russ, pg 231
Automatically Appended Next Post: Pg 116: "... there it was, mounted to the wall. A most heinous depiction of the ice world's second most feared monster. The Trollsquared. It was as though a troll had consumed another, and their digestive and regenerative might was playing out in horrid splendor within the carving." - Russ
Yeah he learned a lesson, as he laughed at his stupidity, the old lore even alludes to that but the Lion didn't intend to teach him a lesson, he was just defending himself.
The whole military operation on Dulan was the lesson intended by Malcador, through the Lion. The fight was not supposed to be part of it. And like everyone here is telling you, the old lore is supposed to be a hyperbolic tale, so it cannot say that one of the emperor's mighty sons needed to be taught a lesson.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: And the lore before was biased by being created by some imperial servant some tens of thousands of years down the line as a legend. The specifics of the book clarify things, and shows things did not occur specifically as you mentioned.
The bias would be thinking that every primarch is somehow equal to each other, which the Imperials of the future would think. The legends won't say that Russ was a hypocrite, or that Lion had issues trusting people and socializing. They'll mention that they were the greatest heroes of the Imperium ind that they could do groundbreaking feats of power that no mortal man could hope to accomplish in their lifetime.
To think otherwise is to insult the legacy of the Emperor and his own personal sons, many of which gave their lives over to fight against evil. It would be quite heretical as well to many scholars of the Imperium, well known for altering data or changing words to fit their own narrative rather then any sort of factual nature.
What are you on about lol
If I'm understanding correctly, the idea is that the "old" lore is written from a perspective where the Primarchs were perfect and flawless, and godlike.
The current lore shows what "really" happened, warts and all.
The idea is that your old lore is outdated, because it's always been written from a third person retrospective perspective, whilst this stuff has been done from a perspective closer to the minds and time of the actual event.
Aka - your old lore is no longer a primary source.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Is anyone noticing a pattern that continues again and again to these threads or is it just me?
Anyways, the book shows that Russ got beat and the Lion could do it again. The book is an example, and you are ignoring said example why exactly?
Thats my question too, he claims bias... cos bias!!! while utterly ignoring context.
And you claim 'not biased' while ignoring lore. I'm ignoring the context of the book because its hard to debate whether the book itself is biased if you are using the book for the context. Give me some context other than the 'actual' book lol Plus you make stuff up.
You're the one ignoring lore.
The current lore is taken from the piece that's actually from the perspective of the people involved. It's a primary source. The old stuff is tertiary, secondary at best, and has never been definitive. You're biased for assuming that a scholar's recounting of an event they probably never saw is more true than a first hand account which we see with out own eyes.
Or, let's take it the other way - why is your book the definitive one? You're saying it's okay to ignore the new book because it doesn't fit into your view, based on another book. What makes the other, older book more valid then?
Long story short, this is a retcon. Whatever you thought happened did not. Move on.
The current lore is taken from the piece that's actually from the perspective of the people involved. It's a primary source. The old stuff is tertiary, secondary at best, and has never been definitive. You're biased for assuming that a scholar's recounting of an event they probably never saw is more true than a first hand account which we see with out own eyes.
Or, let's take it the other way - why is your book the definitive one? You're saying it's okay to ignore the new book because it doesn't fit into your view, based on another book. What makes the other, older book more valid then?
Long story short, this is a retcon. Whatever you thought happened did not. Move on.
"What you have is the Index Astartes fluff, fluff written from the perspective of someone 10k years after the events in question and is basically a legend, when the same index astartes states that Russ chopped the head off a warlord titan we know its not quite true, its exagerated, something the Wolves are well known for doing."
"Biased writing, it was a book about the space wolves, also the fight didnt last weeks, thats imperial "legend" not fact, primarchs leman russ shows what ACTUALLY happened"
With all due respect Sgt Smudge, I have already told him what you just said, please read the thread before accusing someone of ignoring something they have already mentioned.
The current lore is taken from the piece that's actually from the perspective of the people involved. It's a primary source. The old stuff is tertiary, secondary at best, and has never been definitive. You're biased for assuming that a scholar's recounting of an event they probably never saw is more true than a first hand account which we see with out own eyes.
Or, let's take it the other way - why is your book the definitive one? You're saying it's okay to ignore the new book because it doesn't fit into your view, based on another book. What makes the other, older book more valid then?
Long story short, this is a retcon. Whatever you thought happened did not. Move on.
"What you have is the Index Astartes fluff, fluff written from the perspective of someone 10k years after the events in question and is basically a legend, when the same index astartes states that Russ chopped the head off a warlord titan we know its not quite true, its exagerated, something the Wolves are well known for doing."
"Biased writing, it was a book about the space wolves, also the fight didnt last weeks, thats imperial "legend" not fact, primarchs leman russ shows what ACTUALLY happened"
With all due respect Sgt Smudge, I have already told him what you just said, please read the thread before accusing someone of ignoring something they have already mentioned.
Just repeating the point. I know you mentioned it, I agree with that - I'm just repeating and reinforcing that.
I honestly think this is okay, if the Lion thought he had also been the one to loose by resorting to a low blow to win.
SW are supposed to be space Vikings and Vikings, despite often being perceived as the noble and mighty warriors of the north, fought dirty all the time and valued cunning. Want to piss someone off, ambush their friend with some buddies and blood eagle them. Want to kill a rival, burn their hall and kill anyone trying to escape the fire. Pissed that a friend beat you at a game, grab dad's axe and kill him, mom will approve. Someone stole Mjolnir, dress in drag, con them into believing Thor is Freja until he gets his hammer back, let Thor kill everyone... in a wedding dress. Results are what matters. Russ saying he got beat soundly seems like a fair cop to the outcome. He get beat by a cheap shot, he should have seen it coming so the Lion won fair and square.
The DA are supposed to be honorable but they have that hidden shame they go to great lengths to try to keep secrets. It would seem fitting if they did a perspective of the duel from the Lion that he would also view it as a loss. He battles Russ but the only way he can achieve victory is through a sucker punch. He won, but he had to cheapen himself to do it so he really lost. This seem to be in keeping with DA background.
Skaorn wrote: I honestly think this is okay, if the Lion thought he had also been the one to loose by resorting to a low blow to win.
SW are supposed to be space Vikings and Vikings, despite often being perceived as the noble and mighty warriors of the north, fought dirty all the time and valued cunning. Want to piss someone off, ambush their friend with some buddies and blood eagle them. Want to kill a rival, burn their hall and kill anyone trying to escape the fire. Pissed that a friend beat you at a game, grab dad's axe and kill him, mom will approve. Someone stole Mjolnir, dress in drag, con them into believing Thor is Freja until he gets his hammer back, let Thor kill everyone... in a wedding dress. Results are what matters. Russ saying he got beat soundly seems like a fair cop to the outcome. He get beat by a cheap shot, he should have seen it coming so the Lion won fair and square.
The DA are supposed to be honorable but they have that hidden shame they go to great lengths to try to keep secrets. It would seem fitting if they did a perspective of the duel from the Lion that he would also view it as a loss. He battles Russ but the only way he can achieve victory is through a sucker punch. He won, but he had to cheapen himself to do it so he really lost. This seem to be in keeping with DA background.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Odd, quotes there by reply gone
Skaorn wrote: I honestly think this is okay, if the Lion thought he had also been the one to loose by resorting to a low blow to win.
SW are supposed to be space Vikings and Vikings, despite often being perceived as the noble and mighty warriors of the north, fought dirty all the time and valued cunning. Want to piss someone off, ambush their friend with some buddies and blood eagle them. Want to kill a rival, burn their hall and kill anyone trying to escape the fire. Pissed that a friend beat you at a game, grab dad's axe and kill him, mom will approve. Someone stole Mjolnir, dress in drag, con them into believing Thor is Freja until he gets his hammer back, let Thor kill everyone... in a wedding dress. Results are what matters. Russ saying he got beat soundly seems like a fair cop to the outcome. He get beat by a cheap shot, he should have seen it coming so the Lion won fair and square.
The DA are supposed to be honorable but they have that hidden shame they go to great lengths to try to keep secrets. It would seem fitting if they did a perspective of the duel from the Lion that he would also view it as a loss. He battles Russ but the only way he can achieve victory is through a sucker punch. He won, but he had to cheapen himself to do it so he really lost. This seem to be in keeping with DA background.
I actually really like this explanation. It fits with the character of both primarchs.
Russ saying "he beat me bloody" doesn't mean that he meant that the Lion did it fairly or that it was entirely one sided. George Foreman beat Muhammad Ali bloody in their legendary fight, but it doesn't mean he won in the end.
Skaorn wrote: I honestly think this is okay, if the Lion thought he had also been the one to loose by resorting to a low blow to win.
SW are supposed to be space Vikings and Vikings, despite often being perceived as the noble and mighty warriors of the north, fought dirty all the time and valued cunning. Want to piss someone off, ambush their friend with some buddies and blood eagle them. Want to kill a rival, burn their hall and kill anyone trying to escape the fire. Pissed that a friend beat you at a game, grab dad's axe and kill him, mom will approve. Someone stole Mjolnir, dress in drag, con them into believing Thor is Freja until he gets his hammer back, let Thor kill everyone... in a wedding dress. Results are what matters. Russ saying he got beat soundly seems like a fair cop to the outcome. He get beat by a cheap shot, he should have seen it coming so the Lion won fair and square.
The DA are supposed to be honorable but they have that hidden shame they go to great lengths to try to keep secrets. It would seem fitting if they did a perspective of the duel from the Lion that he would also view it as a loss. He battles Russ but the only way he can achieve victory is through a sucker punch. He won, but he had to cheapen himself to do it so he really lost. This seem to be in keeping with DA background.
I actually really like this explanation. It fits with the character of both primarchs.
Russ saying "he beat me bloody" doesn't mean that he meant that the Lion did it fairly or that it was entirely one sided. George Foreman beat Muhammad Ali bloody in their legendary fight, but it doesn't mean he won in the end.
I can see where you're coming from with your reading of it. However as a Dark Angels fan the ending of the duel felt less like the Lion cheapening himself and more like him punishing him for thinking he could get away with dropping a matter of honor so quickly. Remember that in the legend version Russ is quick to anger but quick to forgive like his legion. DA are slow to anger but slow to forgive. They or their Primarch aren't going to drop an issue like that until it's completed resolved to their satisfaction and anything less is an affront to them. For that reason I don't see Lion making himself feel cheapened. I take it as him feeling like Russ is trying to cheapen him. It works well when you considering how they've kept up on the Unforgiven hunt for nearly 10k years. That's just my opinion though.
The novel isn't biased, what it is refreshingly honest from a main character standpoint - Russ has doubts that gnaw away at him and he's in a funk about to disappear to search for his missing brothers.
He's thinking about past mistakes rather than the future, hell, he's telling a Blood Claw, a novice Space Marine who hero worships him about his screw ups. That isn't headstrong arrogant Russ, that's Post Heresy Russ who has seen his brothers murder each other and his lord, has broken the back of one of them and seen him pulled into the warp along with several other brothers who turned traitor and has been positively useless to everyone but Fenris while Robute has run the Imperium.
Russ is a mess at the point of the novel.
Formosa wrote: ...Russ is a hypocrite of the highest order.
I wish I could give some sort of dakka dakka gold for this comment. It is just so true on so many levels that I could spend days giving examples of why it is true.
I don't hate Russ, although I will say that the whole Prospero thing left me with a sour taste in my mouth and made me seriously question the content of his character. But even for people who love Russ and the Space Wolves, you cannot deny that they are absolutely MASSIVE hypocrites, in addition to being extremely arrogant.
Not nearly on the scale people make out. Space Wolf hate is insane.
So let me use some of my scholarly learnings to hopefully try to break some of this down.
Sources.
Primary: A source that was there (or near enough, dependent on the time span involved).
Secondary: A scholarly evaluation of primary sources, that compiles information together. (college textbooks, historical books you find in a book store, etc)
Tertiary: Youtube, Wikipedia, etc...
GW has been writing their stories in a scale like this. The Primarch Books, and most of the regular novels, are considered to be Primary Sources. As in they are the closest to the truth that you're going to get.
Codex's, Horus Heresy Black Books, etc... they'll fall in a mix of Secondary and Tertiary source material. AKA, they aren't as reliable as the primary. Primary source always trumps the others.
The Leman Russ novel is not "bias" or anything of the sort. Is a direct telling of the event, from a person involved. Furthermore, it's the person telling a story about himself, in a negative light, which just adds even more credence to it.
Stuff from Space Wolf/Dark Angel codex's, telling of the event 10,000 years later is not Primary source material. It cannot be used to say that Leman Russ's own words are wrong.
So if your saying the Primarch novel is not acceptable, it's because you are falling victim to your own bias's. And those are the only ones involved.
Formosa wrote: ...Russ is a hypocrite of the highest order.
I wish I could give some sort of dakka dakka gold for this comment. It is just so true on so many levels that I could spend days giving examples of why it is true.
I don't hate Russ, although I will say that the whole Prospero thing left me with a sour taste in my mouth and made me seriously question the content of his character. But even for people who love Russ and the Space Wolves, you cannot deny that they are absolutely MASSIVE hypocrites, in addition to being extremely arrogant.
Not nearly on the scale people make out. Space Wolf hate is insane.
Yeah space wolf hate is pretty large, but not without reason, the super special snowflake marines with the super special snowflake fluff and the super special snowflake defence of it at times (not all times, its only certain people) does get a little old, the space wolf fanbase can be a little rabid (ha!) at times
Formosa wrote: ...Russ is a hypocrite of the highest order.
I wish I could give some sort of dakka dakka gold for this comment. It is just so true on so many levels that I could spend days giving examples of why it is true.
I don't hate Russ, although I will say that the whole Prospero thing left me with a sour taste in my mouth and made me seriously question the content of his character. But even for people who love Russ and the Space Wolves, you cannot deny that they are absolutely MASSIVE hypocrites, in addition to being extremely arrogant.
Not nearly on the scale people make out. Space Wolf hate is insane.
Yeah space wolf hate is pretty large, but not without reason, the super special snowflake marines with the super special snowflake fluff and the super special snowflake defence of it at times (not all times, its only certain people) does get a little old, the space wolf fanbase can be a little rabid (ha!) at times
Can they? Most of what I see is space wolf fans not existing much because everyone else hates on them. That reasoning is total rubbish. I can equally apply it to BA, GK, DA and IF.
Whats more half the time I've actually asked about why someone specific has so much hate it's just some borderline fanfic they got off someone else that's not even close to the lore. I don't mind people disliking a faction they have every right to. But I think it's reasonable to be annoyed by mindless hating based on misinformation.
Formosa wrote: ...Russ is a hypocrite of the highest order.
I wish I could give some sort of dakka dakka gold for this comment. It is just so true on so many levels that I could spend days giving examples of why it is true.
I don't hate Russ, although I will say that the whole Prospero thing left me with a sour taste in my mouth and made me seriously question the content of his character. But even for people who love Russ and the Space Wolves, you cannot deny that they are absolutely MASSIVE hypocrites, in addition to being extremely arrogant.
Not nearly on the scale people make out. Space Wolf hate is insane.
Yeah space wolf hate is pretty large, but not without reason, the super special snowflake marines with the super special snowflake fluff and the super special snowflake defence of it at times (not all times, its only certain people) does get a little old, the space wolf fanbase can be a little rabid (ha!) at times
Can they? Most of what I see is space wolf fans not existing much because everyone else hates on them. That reasoning is total rubbish. I can equally apply it to BA, GK, DA and IF.
Whats more half the time I've actually asked about why someone specific has so much hate it's just some borderline fanfic they got off someone else that's not even close to the lore. I don't mind people disliking a faction they have every right to. But I think it's reasonable to be annoyed by mindless hating based on misinformation.
Yep same criticism can be levelled at the other chapters too, but not as badly as Santa grimnir or Wolfy mc wolf riding a wolf with wolf tail talismans and wolf claws... bleh, bloody horrible.
Then there is
Fought war with inquisition: not excomunicated
Fought war with sisters: not excomunicated
Openly refuses codex astartes: not excommunicated
Are mutants and harbour much worse mutants: not excommunicated
On and on, they get so many exceptions to the setting it makes them so dull, but not everyone thinks so which is fine.
Hardly fought a war. They used themselves as shields, killed a guy after being betrayed and that was all after the Inquisition started killing people for no reason as the whole "kill them for being near Demons" thing is total bs. Plus let's not get so caught up with criticism we forget that the Grey Knights themselves started to plan an assassination of the Inquisitor in charge. That's not black and white.
What war? The time where the Ecclesiarchy tried to essentially invade a loyal world? That time?
Openly refuse the thing that's not actually law? Like the Salamanders do? And the Black Templars?
You know, not once have I seen the Blood Angels criticised for their mutants which are actual mutants that if I remember right were actually created by Chaos.
But yeah the Chapter that works the way they were made by the Big E is the one in the wrong.
All these things are addressed at some point or another. The Ecclesiarchy goes around assassinating Wolves, they can't really follow the Codex considering their Successor Chapter failed and the Imperium is full of mutants that are accepted. Navigators, Astropaths, Ratlings, Ogryns and so on.
The Ecclesiarchy is full of hypocrites, but they still hold a lot of power. Fenris does not follow the regular ideas of what the Imperium is and the Ecclesiarchy see this as a problem. Fenris is pretty much a kingdom within the Imperium that is only used for building up the Space Wolves. It is because of this independence that they hate the Space Wolves.
pm713 wrote: Some of the things GW churns out is pretty awful.
Hardly fought a war. They used themselves as shields, killed a guy after being betrayed and that was all after the Inquisition started killing people for no reason as the whole "kill them for being near Demons" thing is total bs. Plus let's not get so caught up with criticism we forget that the Grey Knights themselves started to plan an assassination of the Inquisitor in charge. That's not black and white.
What war? The time where the Ecclesiarchy tried to essentially invade a loyal world? That time?
Openly refuse the thing that's not actually law? Like the Salamanders do? And the Black Templars?
You know, not once have I seen the Blood Angels criticised for their mutants which are actual mutants that if I remember right were actually created by Chaos.
But yeah the Chapter that works the way they were made by the Big E is the one in the wrong.
All these things are addressed at some point or another. The Ecclesiarchy goes around assassinating Wolves, they can't really follow the Codex considering their Successor Chapter failed and the Imperium is full of mutants that are accepted. Navigators, Astropaths, Ratlings, Ogryns and so on.
ok the inquisiton one is debatable.
The sisters one, really surprised you dont know about this one, its in the space wolves codex too.
yep they openly refuse something that IS law, thats why the templars have to tread a fine line and salamanders ARE codex compliant, the thing that nearly caused a second inter legion civil war, and yes the emperors choice to make them legions was decided to be wrong, by guiliman, the then regent of the imperium so his word was law.
The Blood angels are quite different as they have a curse and its handled quite differently, they dont openly show their mutations, the wolves revel in it... until it goes too far like the Wulfen.
Mutants are NOT accepted in the imperium, they are tolerated, either through necessity in the case of navigators, or them being extremely useful in the case of ratlings and ogryns, space marine chapters have been purged for less mutation that the wolves show, but they get a pass, cos space werewolf vikings!
Personally I would love a retcon that makes them more the like the heresy ones, and not the really really stupid codex version, or actually make them space vikings... anything but what we have now.
pm713 wrote: Some of the things GW churns out is pretty awful.
Hardly fought a war. They used themselves as shields, killed a guy after being betrayed and that was all after the Inquisition started killing people for no reason as the whole "kill them for being near Demons" thing is total bs. Plus let's not get so caught up with criticism we forget that the Grey Knights themselves started to plan an assassination of the Inquisitor in charge. That's not black and white.
What war? The time where the Ecclesiarchy tried to essentially invade a loyal world? That time?
Openly refuse the thing that's not actually law? Like the Salamanders do? And the Black Templars?
You know, not once have I seen the Blood Angels criticised for their mutants which are actual mutants that if I remember right were actually created by Chaos.
But yeah the Chapter that works the way they were made by the Big E is the one in the wrong.
All these things are addressed at some point or another. The Ecclesiarchy goes around assassinating Wolves, they can't really follow the Codex considering their Successor Chapter failed and the Imperium is full of mutants that are accepted. Navigators, Astropaths, Ratlings, Ogryns and so on.
I also imagine the space wolves got an excemption re the codex
Cause in Wolfsbane
Spoiler:
The Space Wolves where nearly destroyed. They took 80% casualties in a direct assault on Horus
Nova_Impero wrote: The Ecclesiarchy is full of hypocrites, but they still hold a lot of power. Fenris does not follow the regular ideas of what the Imperium is and the Ecclesiarchy see this as a problem. Fenris is pretty much a kingdom within the Imperium that is only used for building up the Space Wolves. It is because of this independence that they hate the Space Wolves.
That's the case for every non fleet-based chapter. They're all independent, and they mostly don't worship the emperor as a god (apart from a few exceptions).
Nova_Impero wrote: The Ecclesiarchy is full of hypocrites, but they still hold a lot of power. Fenris does not follow the regular ideas of what the Imperium is and the Ecclesiarchy see this as a problem. Fenris is pretty much a kingdom within the Imperium that is only used for building up the Space Wolves. It is because of this independence that they hate the Space Wolves.
That's the case for every non fleet-based chapter. They're all independent, and they mostly don't worship the emperor as a god (apart from a few exceptions).
This is true. I thought I read somewhere that they just hate Fenris specify but I might be wrong.
pm713 wrote: Some of the things GW churns out is pretty awful.
Hardly fought a war. They used themselves as shields, killed a guy after being betrayed and that was all after the Inquisition started killing people for no reason as the whole "kill them for being near Demons" thing is total bs. Plus let's not get so caught up with criticism we forget that the Grey Knights themselves started to plan an assassination of the Inquisitor in charge. That's not black and white.
What war? The time where the Ecclesiarchy tried to essentially invade a loyal world? That time?
Openly refuse the thing that's not actually law? Like the Salamanders do? And the Black Templars?
You know, not once have I seen the Blood Angels criticised for their mutants which are actual mutants that if I remember right were actually created by Chaos.
But yeah the Chapter that works the way they were made by the Big E is the one in the wrong.
All these things are addressed at some point or another. The Ecclesiarchy goes around assassinating Wolves, they can't really follow the Codex considering their Successor Chapter failed and the Imperium is full of mutants that are accepted. Navigators, Astropaths, Ratlings, Ogryns and so on.
ok the inquisiton one is debatable.
The sisters one, really surprised you dont know about this one, its in the space wolves codex too.
yep they openly refuse something that IS law, thats why the templars have to tread a fine line and salamanders ARE codex compliant, the thing that nearly caused a second inter legion civil war, and yes the emperors choice to make them legions was decided to be wrong, by guiliman, the then regent of the imperium so his word was law.
The Blood angels are quite different as they have a curse and its handled quite differently, they dont openly show their mutations, the wolves revel in it... until it goes too far like the Wulfen.
Mutants are NOT accepted in the imperium, they are tolerated, either through necessity in the case of navigators, or them being extremely useful in the case of ratlings and ogryns, space marine chapters have been purged for less mutation that the wolves show, but they get a pass, cos space werewolf vikings!
Personally I would love a retcon that makes them more the like the heresy ones, and not the really really stupid codex version, or actually make them space vikings... anything but what we have now.
I do know it. The Ecclesiarchy started demanding to inspect Fenrisians for heresy, got told to go away, came back with a bunch of Sisters and tried to land, got shot at until they left. Pretty simple.
Salamanders are not compliant. They have a different organisation to others. The Templars don't really tread a fine line. They openly flaunt the codex. Where's the source for it being law? Girlyman forced the issue because he was willing to start another war to get his way so the others went with it to varying degrees.
Er what? What mutations do they "revel in"? The Wulfen is the mutation and that's the same scale of thing.
They are very much accepted by most people when they're at all useful. Squats, Ratlings, Ogryns, Black Dragons Navigators, Astropaths, Psykers and even clones have been accepted on loyal words. It gets ignored because usefulness. Except in the case of Space Wolves it's a unique thing somehow.
“The Fenris Incident. The Ecclesiarchy arrives at Fenris to investigate a claim of their worship of pagan gods. The Space Wolves orbital defenses fire upon the Ecclesiarchy vessel, chasing it away. Almost a year later, an Ecclesiarchy fleet and three Orders of the Adepta Sororitas attempt to land on Fenris by force. A three-week war erupts before the Ecclesiarchy decides to withdraw.”
Nope a war erupted between them.
Please explain how salamanders are not codex complient, yes they have less companies and lack a lot of the “fast attack” that other chapters have, but other than that, they are pure codex. And yes as soon as the Big E got put on the throne and Guiliman was declared regent, his word was law, he was speaking on behalf of the emperor, much like it is now he has returned, the Templars tread a fine line because they are closely allied with the Ecclesiarchy and no one really know how many of them there really are, if it was found out they were legion strength then they would be forced to become chapters or be excommunicated.
They revel in the fact that the canis helix makes them more wolf like, when said traits become too strong (wulfen) they then worry, any other chapters that mutated to such an obvious degree would likely be purged, even the blood angels worry about the red thirst being found out, not the wolves though, they wear thier mutation openly.
Accepted and tolerated are very different, even minor mutations can lead to slavery in the imperium, or worse, certain ab-humans have been ALLOWED to live because they are useful, “kill the mutant, the Xenos and the heretic” is one of the central tenants of the imperium.
I do know it. The Ecclesiarchy started demanding to inspect Fenrisians for heresy, got told to go away, came back with a bunch of Sisters and tried to land, got shot at until they left. Pretty simple.
Salamanders are not compliant. They have a different organisation to others. The Templars don't really tread a fine line. They openly flaunt the codex. Where's the source for it being law? Girlyman forced the issue because he was willing to start another war to get his way so the others went with it to varying degrees.
Er what? What mutations do they "revel in"? The Wulfen is the mutation and that's the same scale of thing.
They are very much accepted by most people when they're at all useful. Squats, Ratlings, Ogryns, Black Dragons Navigators, Astropaths, Psykers and even clones have been accepted on loyal words. It gets ignored because usefulness. Except in the case of Space Wolves it's a unique thing somehow.
Just wanted to jump in and say that to my knowledge, the salamanders are codex compliant. The only two off of the top of my head that I know aren't codex compliant are the Space Wolves and Black Templar.
In the Fenris Incident that's entirely the Ecclesiarchy (a very hostile faction) tries to force it's way into someone elses territory. Next you'll say that if a Priest tries to break into an Inquisitorial fortress then the Inquisitor will be a traitor.
"yes they have less companies and lack a lot of the “fast attack” that other chapters have, but other than that, they are pure codex" See? Right there "other than that". In other words other than things that aren't codex compliant they are codex compliant and the same applies to Space Wolves.
Salamanders violate the codex by not having a dedicated Chapter Master and ignoring the Company rules.
You need a source for that rubbish. The effects of the Canis Helix are enhanced senses even for a Marine, fangs and leathery skin.
The Wulfen comes when a Space Wolf loses all control much like the Black Rage and is very much feared. Hence why Wulfen weren't even in the Great Companies for 10'000 years unlike Blood Angel mutants.
On top of that you're missing the obvious. Things like Black Dragon, Salamander and Blood Angel mutations are issues caused by genuine mutation or Chaos stuff the Space Wolf mutations are caused by the Canis Helix. A part of their gene seed that was designed, created and added by the Emperor. It's intentional.
As for Marines with mutations like theirs being purged that isn't true either. Salamanders, Black Dragons, Blood Angels and all their Successors have mutations that are equally visible. But none are purged.
The Imperium doesn't really follow those tenets in the case where the subject is useful enough. See all Space Marines, Astropaths, Navigators, cattle, Jokaero and the many Abhumans.
pm713 wrote: In the Fenris Incident that's entirely the Ecclesiarchy (a very hostile faction) tries to force it's way into someone elses territory. Next you'll say that if a Priest tries to break into an Inquisitorial fortress then the Inquisitor will be a traitor.
"yes they have less companies and lack a lot of the “fast attack” that other chapters have, but other than that, they are pure codex" See? Right there "other than that". In other words other than things that aren't codex compliant they are codex compliant and the same applies to Space Wolves.
Salamanders violate the codex by not having a dedicated Chapter Master and ignoring the Company rules.
You need a source for that rubbish. The effects of the Canis Helix are enhanced senses even for a Marine, fangs and leathery skin.
The Wulfen comes when a Space Wolf loses all control much like the Black Rage and is very much feared. Hence why Wulfen weren't even in the Great Companies for 10'000 years unlike Blood Angel mutants.
On top of that you're missing the obvious. Things like Black Dragon, Salamander and Blood Angel mutations are issues caused by genuine mutation or Chaos stuff the Space Wolf mutations are caused by the Canis Helix. A part of their gene seed that was designed, created and added by the Emperor. It's intentional.
As for Marines with mutations like theirs being purged that isn't true either. Salamanders, Black Dragons, Blood Angels and all their Successors have mutations that are equally visible. But none are purged.
The Imperium doesn't really follow those tenets in the case where the subject is useful enough. See all Space Marines, Astropaths, Navigators, cattle, Jokaero and the many Abhumans.
irrelevant, they openly warred with the Ecclesiarchy and were not censured for it, cos reasons.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Tu%27Shan Salamanders have a chapter master, and being less than codex size is not a violation, by your logic Crimson fists are a divergent chapter eh
"You need a source for that rubbish. The effects of the Canis Helix are enhanced senses even for a Marine, fangs and leathery skin. "
Sure its called CODEX SPACE WOLVES, and every bit of fluff ever written for them, how do you not know this lol, its been an integral part of their fluff as far back as i can remember, jesus read the Ragnar series, the first book shows quite clearly how "wolfy" they become after the change.
"The Wulfen comes when a Space Wolf loses all control much like the Black Rage and is very much feared. Hence why Wulfen weren't even in the Great Companies for 10'000 years unlike Blood Angel mutants."
And here we see you dont know what your talking about, the black rage is NOT a mutation, its the psychic imprint of sangs death upon his gene sons, the Red Thirst is the mutation and it manifests in "vampire" fangs, nowhere near as overt as growing large amounts of hair, large canines, yellow eyes, becoming more feral and as you say, leathery skin.
I am not missing the obvious, black dragons havent been purged "yet", salamanders are "bros" so get away with it and blood angels are exemplars of honour whos primarch sacrificed himself for the emperor, no one would dare question them overtly.
"The Imperium doesn't really follow those tenets in the case where the subject is useful enough. See all Space Marines, Astropaths, Navigators, cattle, Jokaero and the many Abhumans."
Now you are just apeing what I have said, they keep "useful" mutants around and are tolerated, when those mutants start to flaunt the rules and attack the imperium, they get purged.
"yes they have less companies and lack a lot of the “fast attack” that other chapters have, but other than that, they are pure codex" See? Right there "other than that". In other words other than things that aren't codex compliant they are codex compliant and the same applies to Space Wolves. Salamanders violate the codex by not having a dedicated Chapter Master and ignoring the Company rules.
The Salamanders still follow the basic structure of the Codex for Organization, from Chapter down to Squad level as well as training organization, progression through the ranks, with negligible differences or differences allowed with in the Codex itself. Dark Angels are more Codex Divergent, yet still relatively compliant. Space Wolves dont even follow the most basic elements of the Codex, not a single one. Except, if you stretch logic, that some of their squads number 10 Astartes.
You need a source for that rubbish. The effects of the Canis Helix are enhanced senses even for a Marine, fangs and leathery skin. The Wulfen comes when a Space Wolf loses all control much like the Black Rage and is very much feared. Hence why Wulfen weren't even in the Great Companies for 10'000 years unlike Blood Angel mutants. On top of that you're missing the obvious. Things like Black Dragon, Salamander and Blood Angel mutations are issues caused by genuine mutation or Chaos stuff the Space Wolf mutations are caused by the Canis Helix. A part of their gene seed that was designed, created and added by the Emperor. It's intentional.
As for Marines with mutations like theirs being purged that isn't true either. Salamanders, Black Dragons, Blood Angels and all their Successors have mutations that are equally visible. But none are purged.
The Black Rage doesn't physically change the Blood Angels and their successors' appearance. They dont look like Mutants, nor really are they mutants. Its a psychological change in them, triggered by psychic resonance. The Space Wolves physically change even before becoming Wulfen, Wulfen just make it all the more obvious and more animalistic. The Space Wolves becoming Wulfen was not designed by the Emperor to happen, its a degradation of the Geneseed, albeit one that started in the days of the Crusade, much like the early Red Thirst.
pm713 wrote: In the Fenris Incident that's entirely the Ecclesiarchy (a very hostile faction) tries to force it's way into someone elses territory. Next you'll say that if a Priest tries to break into an Inquisitorial fortress then the Inquisitor will be a traitor.
"yes they have less companies and lack a lot of the “fast attack” that other chapters have, but other than that, they are pure codex" See? Right there "other than that". In other words other than things that aren't codex compliant they are codex compliant and the same applies to Space Wolves.
Salamanders violate the codex by not having a dedicated Chapter Master and ignoring the Company rules.
You need a source for that rubbish. The effects of the Canis Helix are enhanced senses even for a Marine, fangs and leathery skin.
The Wulfen comes when a Space Wolf loses all control much like the Black Rage and is very much feared. Hence why Wulfen weren't even in the Great Companies for 10'000 years unlike Blood Angel mutants.
On top of that you're missing the obvious. Things like Black Dragon, Salamander and Blood Angel mutations are issues caused by genuine mutation or Chaos stuff the Space Wolf mutations are caused by the Canis Helix. A part of their gene seed that was designed, created and added by the Emperor. It's intentional.
As for Marines with mutations like theirs being purged that isn't true either. Salamanders, Black Dragons, Blood Angels and all their Successors have mutations that are equally visible. But none are purged.
The Imperium doesn't really follow those tenets in the case where the subject is useful enough. See all Space Marines, Astropaths, Navigators, cattle, Jokaero and the many Abhumans.
irrelevant, they openly warred with the Ecclesiarchy and were not censured for it, cos reasons.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Tu%27Shan Salamanders have a chapter master, and being less than codex size is not a violation, by your logic Crimson fists are a divergent chapter eh
"You need a source for that rubbish. The effects of the Canis Helix are enhanced senses even for a Marine, fangs and leathery skin. "
Sure its called CODEX SPACE WOLVES, and every bit of fluff ever written for them, how do you not know this lol, its been an integral part of their fluff as far back as i can remember, jesus read the Ragnar series, the first book shows quite clearly how "wolfy" they become after the change.
"The Wulfen comes when a Space Wolf loses all control much like the Black Rage and is very much feared. Hence why Wulfen weren't even in the Great Companies for 10'000 years unlike Blood Angel mutants."
And here we see you dont know what your talking about, the black rage is NOT a mutation, its the psychic imprint of sangs death upon his gene sons, the Red Thirst is the mutation and it manifests in "vampire" fangs, nowhere near as overt as growing large amounts of hair, large canines, yellow eyes, becoming more feral and as you say, leathery skin.
I am not missing the obvious, black dragons havent been purged "yet", salamanders are "bros" so get away with it and blood angels are exemplars of honour whos primarch sacrificed himself for the emperor, no one would dare question them overtly.
"The Imperium doesn't really follow those tenets in the case where the subject is useful enough. See all Space Marines, Astropaths, Navigators, cattle, Jokaero and the many Abhumans."
Now you are just apeing what I have said, they keep "useful" mutants around and are tolerated, when those mutants start to flaunt the rules and attack the imperium, they get purged.
Okay, so you don't have a source. I've read those novels and nothing in them makes me think of them "revelling" in their mutation. That and the fact you're using "lol you don't know things" makes me think you're afraid to admit you don't know what you're talking about.
Okay, so ignoring the concept of mental mutations can you explain why Blood Angels wouldn't be purged? They have physical mutations and a significant portion of them started a battle with the Imperium in the Arkio Insurrection so they should be dead.
Ah classic. It hasn't happened "yet". The Eldar haven't unveiled their new race of machine men "yet" but trust me they're in the lore. Salamanders have a physical mutation that turns them coal black, Black Dragons grow bone blades, Flesh Tearers are anything but honourable and yet they all exist. Space Wolves are just as loyal as Blood Angels are who have so why are they any different?
But the Space Wolves don't attack the Imperium in the way you present. They stopped the Ecclesiarchy invading their world. They killed a Grey Knight Grand Master in return for months of being assaulted and betrayal and later attacked the Inquisitorial fleet that attacked their world. Again, the Inquisition was having significant infighting over this seeing as they had people planning to assassinate their own people.
So in a summary of your original points we have the following.
One - They fought a war with the Inquisition - What happened was they specifically stated that a whole load of civilians were uncorrupted, protected them, after months of provocation they killed A Grey Knight and defended their home world. On top of the very reasonable things to mitigate what they did we have the fact the whole situation was managed so badly on the part of the Inquisition the Grey Knights and Inquisitors planned to assassinate their own leader.
Two - Fought a war with Sisters - They refused to allow the Ecclesiarchy to go around accusing their people (falsely) of heresy and drove them off and repeated this when they attempted an invasion. That's pretty reasonable. I can't think of any Chapter that allows themselves to be invaded by other people. In addition that's not how the Imperium works. There are times where Sisters have attacked Mechanicum or other Sisters. Are the Sisters of Battle traitors? No.
Three - Refusing the codex- For one you haven't provided a source that the Codex is genuine law. Even if it was then the Salamanders ignore it with their different Companies so they're traitors, the Blood Angels have the Death Company so they're non codex as well, the Black Templars have thrown the Codex out the window and way above the approved numbers and I believe the Imperial Fists have a code about returning to a Legion when Terra gets invaded. So Space Wolves aren't alone there. Also they aren't even capable of forming Successors so they literally cannot follow it. At the end of they day not following the codex is a different way of organising. They have more numbers in each Company and manage vehicles differently. Hardly grounds for exterminating a Chapter that existed at the founding of the Imperium and has loyally served every step of the way.
Four - Space Wolves are mutants - The Wolves have INTENTIONALLY ADDED physical features and something which they fear and keep hidden. So in addition to not technically being mutated at all (unless you go down the route that all Marines are mutants) there are numerous Chapters with equal or worse features namely the Blood Angels and Successors, Black Dragons and Salamanders.
"yes they have less companies and lack a lot of the “fast attack” that other chapters have, but other than that, they are pure codex" See? Right there "other than that". In other words other than things that aren't codex compliant they are codex compliant and the same applies to Space Wolves.
Salamanders violate the codex by not having a dedicated Chapter Master and ignoring the Company rules.
The Salamanders still follow the basic structure of the Codex for Organization, from Chapter down to Squad level as well as training organization, progression through the ranks, with negligible differences or differences allowed with in the Codex itself. Dark Angels are more Codex Divergent, yet still relatively compliant. Space Wolves dont even follow the most basic elements of the Codex, not a single one. Except, if you stretch logic, that some of their squads number 10 Astartes.
You need a source for that rubbish. The effects of the Canis Helix are enhanced senses even for a Marine, fangs and leathery skin.
The Wulfen comes when a Space Wolf loses all control much like the Black Rage and is very much feared. Hence why Wulfen weren't even in the Great Companies for 10'000 years unlike Blood Angel mutants.
On top of that you're missing the obvious. Things like Black Dragon, Salamander and Blood Angel mutations are issues caused by genuine mutation or Chaos stuff the Space Wolf mutations are caused by the Canis Helix. A part of their gene seed that was designed, created and added by the Emperor. It's intentional.
As for Marines with mutations like theirs being purged that isn't true either. Salamanders, Black Dragons, Blood Angels and all their Successors have mutations that are equally visible. But none are purged.
The Black Rage doesn't physically change the Blood Angels and their successors' appearance. They dont look like Mutants, nor really are they mutants. Its a psychological change in them, triggered by psychic resonance. The Space Wolves physically change even before becoming Wulfen, Wulfen just make it all the more obvious and more animalistic. The Space Wolves becoming Wulfen was not designed by the Emperor to happen, its a degradation of the Geneseed, albeit one that started in the days of the Crusade, much like the early Red Thirst.
Dark Angels are a Legion still. They aren't compliant at all.
Salamanders have bigger Companies and no Chapter Master in the traditional way. Space Wolves have bigger Companies and two extra to make up for no ability to have Successors. Considering Templars get away with six times the appropriate size because they're on crusade it's basically irrelevant.
It degraded incredibly fast then. Plus the Wolves were chill with Custodes seeing them so it seems to me that the physical changes is definitely intended and the Wulfen is a considered trade off for enhanced Warp resistance. Either way considering Salamanders go black and Angels go psycho you can't fault the Wolves.
Dark Angels are a Legion still. They aren't compliant at all.
Legion or not, the Chapters that make up that Legion still follow the guise of the Codex with some divergences.
Salamanders have bigger Companies and no Chapter Master in the traditional way. Space Wolves have bigger Companies and two extra to make up for no ability to have Successors. Considering Templars get away with six times the appropriate size because they're on crusade it's basically irrelevant.
Again, larger Companies doesnt mean that they have completely thrown the Codex out, they are just Divergent. They for the most part still follow the Codex's make up. The Space Wolves do not, what so ever follow the Codex. The Black Templars, as much as I prefer the older fluff where they did have Six times the number of a Codex Compliant Chapter, have been shown in books (Eternal Crusader I believe is one of them) to have Codex numbers of Marines, if not only slightly more. That, plus their now use of Scout Squads, Tactical Squads and everything else in the Codex (plus their special Units), barring Librarians makes them a Codex Divergent Chapter. They still follow it, looser than most, but they follow it. Again, the Wolves DO NOT.
It degraded incredibly fast then. Plus the Wolves were chill with Custodes seeing them so it seems to me that the physical changes is definitely intended and the Wulfen is a considered trade off for enhanced Warp resistance. Either way considering Salamanders go black and Angels go psycho you can't fault the Wolves.
Well the Blood Angels also were degraded in the days before the Heresy, so its not an unheard of problem. Sanguinius implies that one of the Lost were dealt with because of such divergences. Them not caring about the Custodes seeing it, doesn't make it an intended mutation, it shows that both parties were more concerned with other things happening, like I don't know killing the Thousand Sons (assuming you're referencing the Chaos Magic produced Wulfen on Prospero). Further more, the Black Rage is not a mutation, its a result of psychic resonance.
pm713 wrote: In the Fenris Incident that's entirely the Ecclesiarchy (a very hostile faction) tries to force it's way into someone elses territory. Next you'll say that if a Priest tries to break into an Inquisitorial fortress then the Inquisitor will be a traitor.
"yes they have less companies and lack a lot of the “fast attack” that other chapters have, but other than that, they are pure codex" See? Right there "other than that". In other words other than things that aren't codex compliant they are codex compliant and the same applies to Space Wolves.
Salamanders violate the codex by not having a dedicated Chapter Master and ignoring the Company rules.
You need a source for that rubbish. The effects of the Canis Helix are enhanced senses even for a Marine, fangs and leathery skin.
The Wulfen comes when a Space Wolf loses all control much like the Black Rage and is very much feared. Hence why Wulfen weren't even in the Great Companies for 10'000 years unlike Blood Angel mutants.
On top of that you're missing the obvious. Things like Black Dragon, Salamander and Blood Angel mutations are issues caused by genuine mutation or Chaos stuff the Space Wolf mutations are caused by the Canis Helix. A part of their gene seed that was designed, created and added by the Emperor. It's intentional.
As for Marines with mutations like theirs being purged that isn't true either. Salamanders, Black Dragons, Blood Angels and all their Successors have mutations that are equally visible. But none are purged.
The Imperium doesn't really follow those tenets in the case where the subject is useful enough. See all Space Marines, Astropaths, Navigators, cattle, Jokaero and the many Abhumans.
irrelevant, they openly warred with the Ecclesiarchy and were not censured for it, cos reasons.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Tu%27Shan Salamanders have a chapter master, and being less than codex size is not a violation, by your logic Crimson fists are a divergent chapter eh
"You need a source for that rubbish. The effects of the Canis Helix are enhanced senses even for a Marine, fangs and leathery skin. "
Sure its called CODEX SPACE WOLVES, and every bit of fluff ever written for them, how do you not know this lol, its been an integral part of their fluff as far back as i can remember, jesus read the Ragnar series, the first book shows quite clearly how "wolfy" they become after the change.
"The Wulfen comes when a Space Wolf loses all control much like the Black Rage and is very much feared. Hence why Wulfen weren't even in the Great Companies for 10'000 years unlike Blood Angel mutants."
And here we see you dont know what your talking about, the black rage is NOT a mutation, its the psychic imprint of sangs death upon his gene sons, the Red Thirst is the mutation and it manifests in "vampire" fangs, nowhere near as overt as growing large amounts of hair, large canines, yellow eyes, becoming more feral and as you say, leathery skin.
I am not missing the obvious, black dragons havent been purged "yet", salamanders are "bros" so get away with it and blood angels are exemplars of honour whos primarch sacrificed himself for the emperor, no one would dare question them overtly.
"The Imperium doesn't really follow those tenets in the case where the subject is useful enough. See all Space Marines, Astropaths, Navigators, cattle, Jokaero and the many Abhumans."
Now you are just apeing what I have said, they keep "useful" mutants around and are tolerated, when those mutants start to flaunt the rules and attack the imperium, they get purged.
Okay, so you don't have a source. I've read those novels and nothing in them makes me think of them "revelling" in their mutation. That and the fact you're using "lol you don't know things" makes me think you're afraid to admit you don't know what you're talking about.
Okay, so ignoring the concept of mental mutations can you explain why Blood Angels wouldn't be purged? They have physical mutations and a significant portion of them started a battle with the Imperium in the Arkio Insurrection so they should be dead.
Ah classic. It hasn't happened "yet". The Eldar haven't unveiled their new race of machine men "yet" but trust me they're in the lore. Salamanders have a physical mutation that turns them coal black, Black Dragons grow bone blades, Flesh Tearers are anything but honourable and yet they all exist. Space Wolves are just as loyal as Blood Angels are who have so why are they any different?
But the Space Wolves don't attack the Imperium in the way you present. They stopped the Ecclesiarchy invading their world. They killed a Grey Knight Grand Master in return for months of being assaulted and betrayal and later attacked the Inquisitorial fleet that attacked their world. Again, the Inquisition was having significant infighting over this seeing as they had people planning to assassinate their own people.
So in a summary of your original points we have the following.
One - They fought a war with the Inquisition - What happened was they specifically stated that a whole load of civilians were uncorrupted, protected them, after months of provocation they killed A Grey Knight and defended their home world. On top of the very reasonable things to mitigate what they did we have the fact the whole situation was managed so badly on the part of the Inquisition the Grey Knights and Inquisitors planned to assassinate their own leader.
Two - Fought a war with Sisters - They refused to allow the Ecclesiarchy to go around accusing their people (falsely) of heresy and drove them off and repeated this when they attempted an invasion. That's pretty reasonable. I can't think of any Chapter that allows themselves to be invaded by other people. In addition that's not how the Imperium works. There are times where Sisters have attacked Mechanicum or other Sisters. Are the Sisters of Battle traitors? No.
Three - Refusing the codex- For one you haven't provided a source that the Codex is genuine law. Even if it was then the Salamanders ignore it with their different Companies so they're traitors, the Blood Angels have the Death Company so they're non codex as well, the Black Templars have thrown the Codex out the window and way above the approved numbers and I believe the Imperial Fists have a code about returning to a Legion when Terra gets invaded. So Space Wolves aren't alone there. Also they aren't even capable of forming Successors so they literally cannot follow it. At the end of they day not following the codex is a different way of organising. They have more numbers in each Company and manage vehicles differently. Hardly grounds for exterminating a Chapter that existed at the founding of the Imperium and has loyally served every step of the way.
Four - Space Wolves are mutants - The Wolves have INTENTIONALLY ADDED physical features and something which they fear and keep hidden. So in addition to not technically being mutated at all (unless you go down the route that all Marines are mutants) there are numerous Chapters with equal or worse features namely the Blood Angels and Successors, Black Dragons and Salamanders.
If you are too lazy to go and read the info yourself, I cant help you, You have the sources and have claimed to have read them (lol).
"The gene-seed also induces physical changes in the Wolves more extreme than those of other genetically-modified humans, such as elongated canines, shaggy hair that becomes grey, then pure white as the Wolf ages, and sometimes pale yellow eyes.
The primary flaw in the Wolves gene-seed is the Curse of the Wulfen, which risks transforming the Marine into a feral beast that cannot be controlled. This risk presents itself when Aspirant's are first implanted with the gene-seed before their Test of Morkai, but even those who manage to control the instability are never entirely free of it. The struggle against the Wulfen can last throughout the Space Wolf's life."
Didnt even take me 10 seconds to google.
" Arkio Insurrection" I can find no reference to this anywhere.
"Ah classic. It hasn't happened "yet". The Eldar haven't unveiled their new race of machine men "yet" but trust me they're in the lore. Salamanders have a physical mutation that turns them coal black, Black Dragons grow bone blades, Flesh Tearers are anything but honourable and yet they all exist. Space Wolves are just as loyal as Blood Angels are who have so why are they any different?"
Read the black dragons book and know why it hasnt happened "yet", your eldar reference is completely different and you are clearly trying to straw man, you have been told why sallies are fine and flesh tearers were extremely close to being excomunicated, all things that you would know if you had actually read the books.
And yes the space wolves have attacked the imperium, that the point, it doesnt matter how or why, other chapters have been excommunicated for far less, soul drinkers for example were declared traitors for attacking mechanicum forces that were trying to rob them.... much much less of a crime than the space wolves.
They have two Companies that only ever deploy on Bikes/Speeders or in Terminator armour and have no limit on the numbers of those Companies. That isn't following it.
Besides Space Wolves follow the codex completely apart from their divergences.
It doesn't matter. If you argue Space Wolves should be purged because they're non compliant then it follows that all the other divergent Chapters should be as well. Again it's not a huge divergence on the Space Wolves part. They have five more people and their scouts wear power armour, their line soldiers form their scout squads, heavy weapon specialists are veterans not newbies and their elites are drawn from everyone. Oh and their Techmarines/Librarians count as part of their Chapter Masters Company that get loaned out. That doesn't really warrant anything bad happening to them.
What does the 8th Codex say on Templars? We have their whole history vs one book here.
The Thousand Son killing was going to stop and if it lead to their censure the Wolves wouldn't let Custodes see them. Chaos magic didn't make any Wulfen on Prospero. They had hordes of them ready to go. That doesn't sound like degradation that sounds like planning.
Everyone with BA geneseed has mental breakdowns and gets the Black Rage bar one Chapter. Psychic resonance is the cause but that qualifies as either a mutation in itself or something equal to it.
"Dark Angels are a Legion still. They aren't compliant at all. "
No one know this in the imperium....
"Salamanders have bigger Companies and no Chapter Master in the traditional way. Space Wolves have bigger Companies and two extra to make up for no ability to have Successors. Considering Templars get away with six times the appropriate size because they're on crusade it's basically irrelevant."
Bigger companies but less companies..... and they have a chapter master, Tu'shan, although I think he died recently.
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pm713 wrote: They have two Companies that only ever deploy on Bikes/Speeders or in Terminator armour and have no limit on the numbers of those Companies. That isn't following it.
Besides Space Wolves follow the codex completely apart from their divergences.
It doesn't matter. If you argue Space Wolves should be purged because they're non compliant then it follows that all the other divergent Chapters should be as well. Again it's not a huge divergence on the Space Wolves part. They have five more people and their scouts wear power armour, their line soldiers form their scout squads, heavy weapon specialists are veterans not newbies and their elites are drawn from everyone. Oh and their Techmarines/Librarians count as part of their Chapter Masters Company that get loaned out. That doesn't really warrant anything bad happening to them.
What does the 8th Codex say on Templars? We have their whole history vs one book here.
The Thousand Son killing was going to stop and if it lead to their censure the Wolves wouldn't let Custodes see them. Chaos magic didn't make any Wulfen on Prospero. They had hordes of them ready to go. That doesn't sound like degradation that sounds like planning.
Everyone with BA geneseed has mental breakdowns and gets the Black Rage bar one Chapter. Psychic resonance is the cause but that qualifies as either a mutation in itself or something equal to it.
You clearly have no idea what your talking about, im done with you, if you want to make stuff up or claim to read things you havent thats fine, crack on.
pm713 wrote: In the Fenris Incident that's entirely the Ecclesiarchy (a very hostile faction) tries to force it's way into someone elses territory. Next you'll say that if a Priest tries to break into an Inquisitorial fortress then the Inquisitor will be a traitor.
"yes they have less companies and lack a lot of the “fast attack” that other chapters have, but other than that, they are pure codex" See? Right there "other than that". In other words other than things that aren't codex compliant they are codex compliant and the same applies to Space Wolves.
Salamanders violate the codex by not having a dedicated Chapter Master and ignoring the Company rules.
You need a source for that rubbish. The effects of the Canis Helix are enhanced senses even for a Marine, fangs and leathery skin.
The Wulfen comes when a Space Wolf loses all control much like the Black Rage and is very much feared. Hence why Wulfen weren't even in the Great Companies for 10'000 years unlike Blood Angel mutants.
On top of that you're missing the obvious. Things like Black Dragon, Salamander and Blood Angel mutations are issues caused by genuine mutation or Chaos stuff the Space Wolf mutations are caused by the Canis Helix. A part of their gene seed that was designed, created and added by the Emperor. It's intentional.
As for Marines with mutations like theirs being purged that isn't true either. Salamanders, Black Dragons, Blood Angels and all their Successors have mutations that are equally visible. But none are purged.
The Imperium doesn't really follow those tenets in the case where the subject is useful enough. See all Space Marines, Astropaths, Navigators, cattle, Jokaero and the many Abhumans.
irrelevant, they openly warred with the Ecclesiarchy and were not censured for it, cos reasons.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Tu%27Shan Salamanders have a chapter master, and being less than codex size is not a violation, by your logic Crimson fists are a divergent chapter eh
"You need a source for that rubbish. The effects of the Canis Helix are enhanced senses even for a Marine, fangs and leathery skin. "
Sure its called CODEX SPACE WOLVES, and every bit of fluff ever written for them, how do you not know this lol, its been an integral part of their fluff as far back as i can remember, jesus read the Ragnar series, the first book shows quite clearly how "wolfy" they become after the change.
"The Wulfen comes when a Space Wolf loses all control much like the Black Rage and is very much feared. Hence why Wulfen weren't even in the Great Companies for 10'000 years unlike Blood Angel mutants."
And here we see you dont know what your talking about, the black rage is NOT a mutation, its the psychic imprint of sangs death upon his gene sons, the Red Thirst is the mutation and it manifests in "vampire" fangs, nowhere near as overt as growing large amounts of hair, large canines, yellow eyes, becoming more feral and as you say, leathery skin.
I am not missing the obvious, black dragons havent been purged "yet", salamanders are "bros" so get away with it and blood angels are exemplars of honour whos primarch sacrificed himself for the emperor, no one would dare question them overtly.
"The Imperium doesn't really follow those tenets in the case where the subject is useful enough. See all Space Marines, Astropaths, Navigators, cattle, Jokaero and the many Abhumans."
Now you are just apeing what I have said, they keep "useful" mutants around and are tolerated, when those mutants start to flaunt the rules and attack the imperium, they get purged.
Okay, so you don't have a source. I've read those novels and nothing in them makes me think of them "revelling" in their mutation. That and the fact you're using "lol you don't know things" makes me think you're afraid to admit you don't know what you're talking about.
Okay, so ignoring the concept of mental mutations can you explain why Blood Angels wouldn't be purged? They have physical mutations and a significant portion of them started a battle with the Imperium in the Arkio Insurrection so they should be dead.
Ah classic. It hasn't happened "yet". The Eldar haven't unveiled their new race of machine men "yet" but trust me they're in the lore. Salamanders have a physical mutation that turns them coal black, Black Dragons grow bone blades, Flesh Tearers are anything but honourable and yet they all exist. Space Wolves are just as loyal as Blood Angels are who have so why are they any different?
But the Space Wolves don't attack the Imperium in the way you present. They stopped the Ecclesiarchy invading their world. They killed a Grey Knight Grand Master in return for months of being assaulted and betrayal and later attacked the Inquisitorial fleet that attacked their world. Again, the Inquisition was having significant infighting over this seeing as they had people planning to assassinate their own people.
So in a summary of your original points we have the following.
One - They fought a war with the Inquisition - What happened was they specifically stated that a whole load of civilians were uncorrupted, protected them, after months of provocation they killed A Grey Knight and defended their home world. On top of the very reasonable things to mitigate what they did we have the fact the whole situation was managed so badly on the part of the Inquisition the Grey Knights and Inquisitors planned to assassinate their own leader.
Two - Fought a war with Sisters - They refused to allow the Ecclesiarchy to go around accusing their people (falsely) of heresy and drove them off and repeated this when they attempted an invasion. That's pretty reasonable. I can't think of any Chapter that allows themselves to be invaded by other people. In addition that's not how the Imperium works. There are times where Sisters have attacked Mechanicum or other Sisters. Are the Sisters of Battle traitors? No.
Three - Refusing the codex- For one you haven't provided a source that the Codex is genuine law. Even if it was then the Salamanders ignore it with their different Companies so they're traitors, the Blood Angels have the Death Company so they're non codex as well, the Black Templars have thrown the Codex out the window and way above the approved numbers and I believe the Imperial Fists have a code about returning to a Legion when Terra gets invaded. So Space Wolves aren't alone there. Also they aren't even capable of forming Successors so they literally cannot follow it. At the end of they day not following the codex is a different way of organising. They have more numbers in each Company and manage vehicles differently. Hardly grounds for exterminating a Chapter that existed at the founding of the Imperium and has loyally served every step of the way.
Four - Space Wolves are mutants - The Wolves have INTENTIONALLY ADDED physical features and something which they fear and keep hidden. So in addition to not technically being mutated at all (unless you go down the route that all Marines are mutants) there are numerous Chapters with equal or worse features namely the Blood Angels and Successors, Black Dragons and Salamanders.
If you are too lazy to go and read the info yourself, I cant help you, You have the sources and have claimed to have read them (lol).
"The gene-seed also induces physical changes in the Wolves more extreme than those of other genetically-modified humans, such as elongated canines, shaggy hair that becomes grey, then pure white as the Wolf ages, and sometimes pale yellow eyes.
The primary flaw in the Wolves gene-seed is the Curse of the Wulfen, which risks transforming the Marine into a feral beast that cannot be controlled. This risk presents itself when Aspirant's are first implanted with the gene-seed before their Test of Morkai, but even those who manage to control the instability are never entirely free of it. The struggle against the Wulfen can last throughout the Space Wolf's life."
Didnt even take me 10 seconds to google.
" Arkio Insurrection" I can find no reference to this anywhere.
"Ah classic. It hasn't happened "yet". The Eldar haven't unveiled their new race of machine men "yet" but trust me they're in the lore. Salamanders have a physical mutation that turns them coal black, Black Dragons grow bone blades, Flesh Tearers are anything but honourable and yet they all exist. Space Wolves are just as loyal as Blood Angels are who have so why are they any different?"
Read the black dragons book and know why it hasnt happened "yet", your eldar reference is completely different and you are clearly trying to straw man, you have been told why sallies are fine and flesh tearers were extremely close to being excomunicated, all things that you would know if you had actually read the books.
And yes the space wolves have attacked the imperium, that the point, it doesnt matter how or why, other chapters have been excommunicated for far less, soul drinkers for example were declared traitors for attacking mechanicum forces that were trying to rob them.... much much less of a crime than the space wolves.
Congratulations you found something I already covered. I asked you to provide source on the Wolves revelling in their mutation and you hadn't.
Lol yourself. Google it. It's literally the first result. Blood Angels started a civil war because of a rogue Inquisitor and a mutant.
Does this book have a name? I'd like to read some Black Dragon stuff as I like them. Being "bros" isn't a reason why they get away with mutation but others don't. I know Flesh Tearers still haven't been excommunicated and are just close and you'd know how much flak Wolves get for similar things if you'd read the books.
Okay. So the Sisters of Battle are all traitors then as are the Mechanicum. They've attacked Imperial forces as well. Soul Drinkers boarded a Mechanicum vessel and killed a whole lot of people. Which seems like a different thing to defending your planet which is your own territory. Much bigger crime.
I'm just going to leave things. You aren't interested in a conversation. You want to shift goalposts and then lol your way through things. When you want to actually talk about the lore I'll be happy to.
pm713 wrote: In the Fenris Incident that's entirely the Ecclesiarchy (a very hostile faction) tries to force it's way into someone elses territory. Next you'll say that if a Priest tries to break into an Inquisitorial fortress then the Inquisitor will be a traitor.
"yes they have less companies and lack a lot of the “fast attack” that other chapters have, but other than that, they are pure codex" See? Right there "other than that". In other words other than things that aren't codex compliant they are codex compliant and the same applies to Space Wolves.
Salamanders violate the codex by not having a dedicated Chapter Master and ignoring the Company rules.
You need a source for that rubbish. The effects of the Canis Helix are enhanced senses even for a Marine, fangs and leathery skin.
The Wulfen comes when a Space Wolf loses all control much like the Black Rage and is very much feared. Hence why Wulfen weren't even in the Great Companies for 10'000 years unlike Blood Angel mutants.
On top of that you're missing the obvious. Things like Black Dragon, Salamander and Blood Angel mutations are issues caused by genuine mutation or Chaos stuff the Space Wolf mutations are caused by the Canis Helix. A part of their gene seed that was designed, created and added by the Emperor. It's intentional.
As for Marines with mutations like theirs being purged that isn't true either. Salamanders, Black Dragons, Blood Angels and all their Successors have mutations that are equally visible. But none are purged.
The Imperium doesn't really follow those tenets in the case where the subject is useful enough. See all Space Marines, Astropaths, Navigators, cattle, Jokaero and the many Abhumans.
irrelevant, they openly warred with the Ecclesiarchy and were not censured for it, cos reasons.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Tu%27Shan Salamanders have a chapter master, and being less than codex size is not a violation, by your logic Crimson fists are a divergent chapter eh
"You need a source for that rubbish. The effects of the Canis Helix are enhanced senses even for a Marine, fangs and leathery skin. "
Sure its called CODEX SPACE WOLVES, and every bit of fluff ever written for them, how do you not know this lol, its been an integral part of their fluff as far back as i can remember, jesus read the Ragnar series, the first book shows quite clearly how "wolfy" they become after the change.
"The Wulfen comes when a Space Wolf loses all control much like the Black Rage and is very much feared. Hence why Wulfen weren't even in the Great Companies for 10'000 years unlike Blood Angel mutants."
And here we see you dont know what your talking about, the black rage is NOT a mutation, its the psychic imprint of sangs death upon his gene sons, the Red Thirst is the mutation and it manifests in "vampire" fangs, nowhere near as overt as growing large amounts of hair, large canines, yellow eyes, becoming more feral and as you say, leathery skin.
I am not missing the obvious, black dragons havent been purged "yet", salamanders are "bros" so get away with it and blood angels are exemplars of honour whos primarch sacrificed himself for the emperor, no one would dare question them overtly.
"The Imperium doesn't really follow those tenets in the case where the subject is useful enough. See all Space Marines, Astropaths, Navigators, cattle, Jokaero and the many Abhumans."
Now you are just apeing what I have said, they keep "useful" mutants around and are tolerated, when those mutants start to flaunt the rules and attack the imperium, they get purged.
Okay, so you don't have a source. I've read those novels and nothing in them makes me think of them "revelling" in their mutation. That and the fact you're using "lol you don't know things" makes me think you're afraid to admit you don't know what you're talking about.
Okay, so ignoring the concept of mental mutations can you explain why Blood Angels wouldn't be purged? They have physical mutations and a significant portion of them started a battle with the Imperium in the Arkio Insurrection so they should be dead.
Ah classic. It hasn't happened "yet". The Eldar haven't unveiled their new race of machine men "yet" but trust me they're in the lore. Salamanders have a physical mutation that turns them coal black, Black Dragons grow bone blades, Flesh Tearers are anything but honourable and yet they all exist. Space Wolves are just as loyal as Blood Angels are who have so why are they any different?
But the Space Wolves don't attack the Imperium in the way you present. They stopped the Ecclesiarchy invading their world. They killed a Grey Knight Grand Master in return for months of being assaulted and betrayal and later attacked the Inquisitorial fleet that attacked their world. Again, the Inquisition was having significant infighting over this seeing as they had people planning to assassinate their own people.
So in a summary of your original points we have the following.
One - They fought a war with the Inquisition - What happened was they specifically stated that a whole load of civilians were uncorrupted, protected them, after months of provocation they killed A Grey Knight and defended their home world. On top of the very reasonable things to mitigate what they did we have the fact the whole situation was managed so badly on the part of the Inquisition the Grey Knights and Inquisitors planned to assassinate their own leader.
Two - Fought a war with Sisters - They refused to allow the Ecclesiarchy to go around accusing their people (falsely) of heresy and drove them off and repeated this when they attempted an invasion. That's pretty reasonable. I can't think of any Chapter that allows themselves to be invaded by other people. In addition that's not how the Imperium works. There are times where Sisters have attacked Mechanicum or other Sisters. Are the Sisters of Battle traitors? No.
Three - Refusing the codex- For one you haven't provided a source that the Codex is genuine law. Even if it was then the Salamanders ignore it with their different Companies so they're traitors, the Blood Angels have the Death Company so they're non codex as well, the Black Templars have thrown the Codex out the window and way above the approved numbers and I believe the Imperial Fists have a code about returning to a Legion when Terra gets invaded. So Space Wolves aren't alone there. Also they aren't even capable of forming Successors so they literally cannot follow it. At the end of they day not following the codex is a different way of organising. They have more numbers in each Company and manage vehicles differently. Hardly grounds for exterminating a Chapter that existed at the founding of the Imperium and has loyally served every step of the way.
Four - Space Wolves are mutants - The Wolves have INTENTIONALLY ADDED physical features and something which they fear and keep hidden. So in addition to not technically being mutated at all (unless you go down the route that all Marines are mutants) there are numerous Chapters with equal or worse features namely the Blood Angels and Successors, Black Dragons and Salamanders.
If you are too lazy to go and read the info yourself, I cant help you, You have the sources and have claimed to have read them (lol).
"The gene-seed also induces physical changes in the Wolves more extreme than those of other genetically-modified humans, such as elongated canines, shaggy hair that becomes grey, then pure white as the Wolf ages, and sometimes pale yellow eyes.
The primary flaw in the Wolves gene-seed is the Curse of the Wulfen, which risks transforming the Marine into a feral beast that cannot be controlled. This risk presents itself when Aspirant's are first implanted with the gene-seed before their Test of Morkai, but even those who manage to control the instability are never entirely free of it. The struggle against the Wulfen can last throughout the Space Wolf's life."
Didnt even take me 10 seconds to google.
" Arkio Insurrection" I can find no reference to this anywhere.
"Ah classic. It hasn't happened "yet". The Eldar haven't unveiled their new race of machine men "yet" but trust me they're in the lore. Salamanders have a physical mutation that turns them coal black, Black Dragons grow bone blades, Flesh Tearers are anything but honourable and yet they all exist. Space Wolves are just as loyal as Blood Angels are who have so why are they any different?"
Read the black dragons book and know why it hasnt happened "yet", your eldar reference is completely different and you are clearly trying to straw man, you have been told why sallies are fine and flesh tearers were extremely close to being excomunicated, all things that you would know if you had actually read the books.
And yes the space wolves have attacked the imperium, that the point, it doesnt matter how or why, other chapters have been excommunicated for far less, soul drinkers for example were declared traitors for attacking mechanicum forces that were trying to rob them.... much much less of a crime than the space wolves.
Congratulations you found something I already covered. I asked you to provide source on the Wolves revelling in their mutation and you hadn't.
Lol yourself. Google it. It's literally the first result. Blood Angels started a civil war because of a rogue Inquisitor and a mutant.
Does this book have a name? I'd like to read some Black Dragon stuff as I like them. Being "bros" isn't a reason why they get away with mutation but others don't. I know Flesh Tearers still haven't been excommunicated and are just close and you'd know how much flak Wolves get for similar things if you'd read the books.
Okay. So the Sisters of Battle are all traitors then as are the Mechanicum. They've attacked Imperial forces as well. Soul Drinkers boarded a Mechanicum vessel and killed a whole lot of people. Which seems like a different thing to defending your planet which is your own territory. Much bigger crime.
I'm just going to leave things. You aren't interested in a conversation. You want to shift goalposts and then lol your way through things. When you want to actually talk about the lore I'll be happy to.
Cant talk lore with someone who makes things up and doesnt actually know it
Salamanders have bigger Companies and no Chapter Master in the traditional way.
Are we really going to split hairs like that? They absolutely do. As already mentioned it is Tu'Shan who is for all intents and purposes the CM of the Sallies, the only asterisk being he considers himself regent and will relinquish the role when they believe Vulkan returns.
I wonder if GW actually pays attention to Dakka Dakka, would a successful poll to get the Wolfity Wolf in the codex replaced with Northern European names like the ones used in the fluff accomplish anything?
Personally I'd love to choose from Jarls and Husjarls.
Dakka Wolf wrote: I wonder if GW actually pays attention to Dakka Dakka, would a successful poll to get the Wolfity Wolf in the codex replaced with Northern European names like the ones used in the fluff accomplish anything?
Personally I'd love to choose from Jarls and Husjarls.
I'd be fine with them keeping ther terms but telling us in their fluff what Space Wolves call them so that people could use the term they prefered. it'd only add to the fluff IMHO to be told "The common man refers to these as Wolf Lords, but the space Wolves call then Jarls" etc
They do tell us in the fluff - In Lukas the Trickster.
Space Wolves call them Jarls when they're being formal and Wolf Lords when they're being familiar or disrespectful. Problem is that information never makes the codex.
LoL - if you don't like biased writing, why are you reading the fluff for 40k at all?
It's ALL biased. EVERY codex is written from the POV of themselves, and biased against the rest. Such is the nature of propaganda. It's all lies. Even the lies are lies.
Dakka Wolf wrote: They do tell us in the fluff - In Lukas the Trickster.
Space Wolves call them Jarls when they're being formal and Wolf Lords when they're being familiar or disrespectful. Problem is that information never makes the codex.
exactly, I'd love to see that stuff MAKE the codex.
Dakka Wolf wrote: They do tell us in the fluff - In Lukas the Trickster.
Space Wolves call them Jarls when they're being formal and Wolf Lords when they're being familiar or disrespectful. Problem is that information never makes the codex.
exactly, I'd love to see that stuff MAKE the codex.
They used to put lots of little tidbits of irrelevant flavour in each army Codex like the flavour text on the bottom of a MtG card. I do miss that.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: In the Leman Russ book, Leman Russ admitted that he got beat by the lion. I don't want this to turn into a pissing contest. If you are being totally fair, you'd have to say Russ and the Lion are completely evenly matched. They fought for weeks completely even matched and then the sucker punched ended it. I wish writers would take their ego's out of the writing. and I'm a world eaters player so 'I' am not biased here.
One of the things that separates good lore from bad lore is biased writing, properly applied.
Why should fictional people be any less biased than actual people? A lot of the better 40k fiction actually does this really well. Inquisitors poorly understand the way those they hunt think. Chaos cultists are often completely far gone. The Primarchs are all excellent examples, particularly in how they all held biased and conflicting opinions about one another and their father.
That the Lion and Russ are evenly matched is something we as the audience might know or debate, but in-universe it's plausible that Leman Russ might think his brother got the better of him, and vice versa. In fact each of them thinking the other won would explain a lot about their relationship with one another.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: In the Leman Russ book, Leman Russ admitted that he got beat by the lion. I don't want this to turn into a pissing contest. If you are being totally fair, you'd have to say Russ and the Lion are completely evenly matched. They fought for weeks completely even matched and then the sucker punched ended it. I wish writers would take their ego's out of the writing. and I'm a world eaters player so 'I' am not biased here.
One of the things that separates good lore from bad lore is biased writing, properly applied.
Why should fictional people be any less biased than actual people? A lot of the better 40k fiction actually does this really well. Inquisitors poorly understand the way those they hunt think. Chaos cultists are often completely far gone. The Primarchs are all excellent examples, particularly in how they all held biased and conflicting opinions about one another and their father.
That the Lion and Russ are evenly matched is something we as the audience might know or debate, but in-universe it's plausible that Leman Russ might think his brother got the better of him, and vice versa. In fact each of them thinking the other won would explain a lot about their relationship with one another.
After Lion running Russ through with a sword they became best mates.
Visit an MMA gym and see how the practitioners treat each other after trying to beat each other's brains out - suprisingly cuddly considering the bruises they just exchanged.
It's fiction. Each character is exactly as good and capable as the author needs him to be. Hell, they even change personalities when needed due to different authors having different takes.
Look up Marvel's Squirrel Girl, who was created to drive home this point. Thanos loses to squirrels, because the stronger/better/faster character is exactly whoever the author decides has to be the stronger.
I mean, look at Curze vs. the Lion. Curze would've turned the Lion's skull into a spit-bucket in one book if not for Corswain joining in the duel, but Curze gets beaten silly by the Lion in another, even while ambushing the Lion.
You got the wrong take away from the duel. No one won the duel, because Russ prettyuch gave up because he realized neither of them could beat one another. This pissed the lion off which caused him to rage and sucker punch Russ out which was true to Lions character.
It was not bias writing it was good writing, it was after that Russ though that the lion was the best of his brothers and had the most respect for him above all others save for the emperor.
I liked how "The Great Wolf" made Russ more likable and how "Master of Prospero" made it clear that Magnus has in fact done at least one thing wrong...
BigbyWolf wrote: I liked how "The Great Wolf" made Russ more likable and how "Master of Prospero" made it clear that Magnus has in fact done at least one thing wrong...
Read Crimson King, it has a really good scene where an Ultramarine explains EXACTLY what the Tsons did wrong, its quite damning.
BigbyWolf wrote: I liked how "The Great Wolf" made Russ more likable and how "Master of Prospero" made it clear that Magnus has in fact done at least one thing wrong...
Read Crimson King, it has a really good scene where an Ultramarine explains EXACTLY what the Tsons did wrong, its quite damning.
Just finished that book a few weeks ago, its REALLY good. It solidifies the whole "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" Saying. Memes aside, magnus did do wrong, but it was for all the right reasons. His greatest fault was that he was arrogant. That book also does a great job at showing the fall of Ahriman. The book does a really good job as well at making you see that the Tsons despite being traitors, and arrogent, really are at their core good, they just dont care who gets in their way of their version of good. Hell even Ahriman still belive that in the IoM through out the book. IMO if the whole thing Magnus said was true, that one legion would go traitor and one would return, i think the legion to return will not be the Tsons as a whole, but Ahrimans war band, the prodigal sons, will return to the IoM, maybe not indefinitely, but for a period, long enough for them to reclaim the last fragment of magnus.
BigbyWolf wrote: I liked how "The Great Wolf" made Russ more likable and how "Master of Prospero" made it clear that Magnus has in fact done at least one thing wrong...
Read Crimson King, it has a really good scene where an Ultramarine explains EXACTLY what the Tsons did wrong, its quite damning.
Just finished that book a few weeks ago, its REALLY good. It solidifies the whole "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" Saying. Memes aside, magnus did do wrong, but it was for all the right reasons. His greatest fault was that he was arrogant. That book also does a great job at showing the fall of Ahriman. The book does a really good job as well at making you see that the Tsons despite being traitors, and arrogent, really are at their core good, they just dont care who gets in their way of their version of good. Hell even Ahriman still belive that in the IoM through out the book. IMO if the whole thing Magnus said was true, that one legion would go traitor and one would return, i think the legion to return will not be the Tsons as a whole, but Ahrimans war band, the prodigal sons, will return to the IoM, maybe not indefinitely, but for a period, long enough for them to reclaim the last fragment of magnus.
Tl;dr: Read the crimson king.
Crimson King added to reading list.
Any novels explaining why Robute went to war with Ferris Manus over his refusal on the Codex Astartes?
BigbyWolf wrote: I liked how "The Great Wolf" made Russ more likable and how "Master of Prospero" made it clear that Magnus has in fact done at least one thing wrong...
Read Crimson King, it has a really good scene where an Ultramarine explains EXACTLY what the Tsons did wrong, its quite damning.
Just finished that book a few weeks ago, its REALLY good. It solidifies the whole "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" Saying. Memes aside, magnus did do wrong, but it was for all the right reasons. His greatest fault was that he was arrogant. That book also does a great job at showing the fall of Ahriman. The book does a really good job as well at making you see that the Tsons despite being traitors, and arrogent, really are at their core good, they just dont care who gets in their way of their version of good. Hell even Ahriman still belive that in the IoM through out the book. IMO if the whole thing Magnus said was true, that one legion would go traitor and one would return, i think the legion to return will not be the Tsons as a whole, but Ahrimans war band, the prodigal sons, will return to the IoM, maybe not indefinitely, but for a period, long enough for them to reclaim the last fragment of magnus.
Tl;dr: Read the crimson king.
Crimson King added to reading list.
Any novels explaining why Robute went to war with Ferris Manus over his refusal on the Codex Astartes?
I'm guessing you mean Dorn not Manus. and not yet. I'm kinda hoping the scouring and second found get some books of their own when the HH is finished.
That said I'm going to take a guess based on what we know. The Horus Hersy scared the people of the Imperium, especially Terra who saw what space Marines unleashed could do and found it terrifying. numerous books have suggested that seeing the legions unleashed for the first time was a terrifying sight to humans, my guess is following the heresy the other high lords demanded the Legions disband. Gulliman not wanting to be rid of the space marines instead came up with the idea of dividing the legions into chapters. Most of the primarchs eaither went along with it, or at least went along with the spirit of it (Russ didn't follow the codex but he split his legion. after the heresy he couldn't divide into more then 2) Dorn presented a problem in that the Imperial Fists came out of the Heresy in reasonably good shape, and proved stubbron. the HH novels have given us glimpses of Dorn and the man simply won't back down from a position it's not in his make up. This would be why it nearly sparked a civil war, because humanity was demanding the Legions come to an end. Makes for a more intreasting conflict IMHO.
BigbyWolf wrote: I liked how "The Great Wolf" made Russ more likable and how "Master of Prospero" made it clear that Magnus has in fact done at least one thing wrong...
Read Crimson King, it has a really good scene where an Ultramarine explains EXACTLY what the Tsons did wrong, its quite damning.
Just finished that book a few weeks ago, its REALLY good. It solidifies the whole "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" Saying. Memes aside, magnus did do wrong, but it was for all the right reasons. His greatest fault was that he was arrogant. That book also does a great job at showing the fall of Ahriman. The book does a really good job as well at making you see that the Tsons despite being traitors, and arrogent, really are at their core good, they just dont care who gets in their way of their version of good. Hell even Ahriman still belive that in the IoM through out the book. IMO if the whole thing Magnus said was true, that one legion would go traitor and one would return, i think the legion to return will not be the Tsons as a whole, but Ahrimans war band, the prodigal sons, will return to the IoM, maybe not indefinitely, but for a period, long enough for them to reclaim the last fragment of magnus.
Tl;dr: Read the crimson king.
Crimson King added to reading list.
Any novels explaining why Robute went to war with Ferris Manus over his refusal on the Codex Astartes?
I'm guessing you mean Dorn not Manus. and not yet. I'm kinda hoping the scouring and second found get some books of their own when the HH is finished.
That said I'm going to take a guess based on what we know. The Horus Hersy scared the people of the Imperium, especially Terra who saw what space Marines unleashed could do and found it terrifying. numerous books have suggested that seeing the legions unleashed for the first time was a terrifying sight to humans, my guess is following the heresy the other high lords demanded the Legions disband. Gulliman not wanting to be rid of the space marines instead came up with the idea of dividing the legions into chapters. Most of the primarchs eaither went along with it, or at least went along with the spirit of it (Russ didn't follow the codex but he split his legion. after the heresy he couldn't divide into more then 2) Dorn presented a problem in that the Imperial Fists came out of the Heresy in reasonably good shape, and proved stubbron. the HH novels have given us glimpses of Dorn and the man simply won't back down from a position it's not in his make up. This would be why it nearly sparked a civil war, because humanity was demanding the Legions come to an end. Makes for a more intreasting conflict IMHO.
I knew it was one of the Dauntless Few.
My curiosity ran along the lines of why did Dorn and Guilliman get into a war over it but Russ got away scott free?
Turns out the 'war' was one Imperial Navy ship firing on one of Dorn's strike cruisers, probably just good fortune that they fired on a stubbourn Dorn rather than a hot-head like Russ.
IIRC Dorn only adopted the codex after Guilliman saved him and the remnants of his legion during the iron cage incident. Dorn was feeling awful that he got tricked, and got a lot of his sons killed by being so stubborn. Guilliman was able to parley that into finally getting the normally stubborn Dorn to accept the codex changes. Guilliman was always the best talker apart from arguably Sanguinius and Horus.
The funny thing is, Dorn always criticized Perturabo for being so stubborn on crusade and being willing to throw his men into the meatgrinder to accomplish an objective, even an important one. Then he does the exact same thing after Perturabo turns traitor and Dorn gets a whiff of him being somewhere lol. The iron cage incident was pure schadenfreude for an iron warriors fan like me. Gave the imperial fists a taste of what the iron warriors were dealing with the entire crusade. Dorn was a smug, arrogant, jerk second only to Russ, because Russ was all of those and a massive hypocrite on top of it.
w1zard wrote: IIRC Dorn only adopted the codex after Guilliman saved him and the remnants of his legion during the iron cage incident. Dorn was feeling awful that he got tricked, and got a lot of his sons killed by being so stubborn. Guilliman was able to parley that into finally getting the normally stubborn Dorn to accept the codex changes. Guilliman was always the best talker apart from arguably Sanguinius and Horus.
The funny thing is, Dorn always criticized Perturabo for being so stubborn on crusade and being willing to throw his men into the meatgrinder to accomplish an objective, even an important one. Then he does the exact same thing after Perturabo turns traitor and Dorn gets a whiff of him being somewhere lol. The iron cage incident was pure schadenfreude for an iron warriors fan like me. Gave the imperial fists a taste of what the iron warriors were dealing with the entire crusade. Dorn was a smug, arrogant, jerk second only to Russ, because Russ was all of those and a massive hypocrite on top of it.
Dorn's worse then Russ. there's an intreasting scene in Wolfsbane where they end up talking about Nikea and Russ admits that his line on Psykers was, in retrospect, a mistake, and that Magnus should have been censors for how far he went but that Librarians where proving their worth. Dorn went off on him and they got in a huge fight because Dorn was incapable of stepping back and saying "yeah this was a mistake" and changing course.
BrianDavion wrote: Dorn's worse then Russ. there's an intreasting scene in Wolfsbane where they end up talking about Nikea and Russ admits that his line on Psykers was, in retrospect, a mistake, and that Magnus should have been censors for how far he went but that Librarians where proving their worth. Dorn went off on him and they got in a huge fight because Dorn was incapable of stepping back and saying "yeah this was a mistake" and changing course.
Wow, I really need to read the new fluff. If what you are saying is true, that is a moment of introspection for Russ that I genuinely thought him incapable of. In all of the older fluff Russ was portrayed as a massive douche who saw absolutely no problem with condemning Magnus at nikea, whilst still using rune priests freely, and who took a great amount of joy in slaughtering every living thing on Prospero and never felt bad about it, even when he found out later he had been tricked by Horus into doing it. As far as I remember his attitude about the affair was "Well it sucks to be Magnus then... never liked the guy so I have no sympathy for him". He was also portrayed as illiterate and proud of the fact, it caused some friction between him and the Lion because the Lion was a scholar as well as a warrior and Russ saw that as unmanly.
BrianDavion wrote: Dorn's worse then Russ. there's an intreasting scene in Wolfsbane where they end up talking about Nikea and Russ admits that his line on Psykers was, in retrospect, a mistake, and that Magnus should have been censors for how far he went but that Librarians where proving their worth. Dorn went off on him and they got in a huge fight because Dorn was incapable of stepping back and saying "yeah this was a mistake" and changing course.
Wow, I really need to read the new fluff. If what you are saying is true, that is a moment of introspection for Russ that I genuinely thought him incapable of. In all of the older fluff Russ was portrayed as a massive douche who saw absolutely no problem with condemning Magnus at nikea, whilst still using rune priests freely, and who took a great amount of joy in slaughtering every living thing on Prospero and never felt bad about it, even when he found out later he had been tricked by Horus into doing it. As far as I remember his attitude about the affair was "Well it sucks to be Magnus then... never liked the guy so I have no sympathy for him". He was also portrayed as illiterate and proud of the fact, it caused some friction between him and the Lion because the Lion was a scholar as well as a warrior and Russ saw that as unmanly.
Wolfsbane is VERY MUCH a "Must read core heresy novel" IMHO.
It addresses some intreasting points.
(as well as being our first look at Heresy Era Cawl)
BrianDavion wrote: Dorn's worse then Russ. there's an intreasting scene in Wolfsbane where they end up talking about Nikea and Russ admits that his line on Psykers was, in retrospect, a mistake, and that Magnus should have been censors for how far he went but that Librarians where proving their worth. Dorn went off on him and they got in a huge fight because Dorn was incapable of stepping back and saying "yeah this was a mistake" and changing course.
Wow, I really need to read the new fluff. If what you are saying is true, that is a moment of introspection for Russ that I genuinely thought him incapable of. In all of the older fluff Russ was portrayed as a massive douche who saw absolutely no problem with condemning Magnus at nikea, whilst still using rune priests freely, and who took a great amount of joy in slaughtering every living thing on Prospero and never felt bad about it, even when he found out later he had been tricked by Horus into doing it. As far as I remember his attitude about the affair was "Well it sucks to be Magnus then... never liked the guy so I have no sympathy for him". He was also portrayed as illiterate and proud of the fact, it caused some friction between him and the Lion because the Lion was a scholar as well as a warrior and Russ saw that as unmanly.
Wolfsbane is VERY MUCH a "Must read core heresy novel" IMHO.
It addresses some intreasting points.
(as well as being our first look at Heresy Era Cawl)
Yep got to agree, I am about halfway through the book and it goes a long way to resolving the current mary sueness of cawl, now he is an actual character rather than what I said before
"Yeah I also think its a possibility and Cawl does indeed need to be fleshed out, at the moment he is just a plot device to hand wave things into the setting, but I am looking foward to seeing exactly how he achieved some of the things he has."
I do know that Dorn and Malcador constantly butted heads because Dorn saw the Emperor as "perfect" and thought he could do no wrong, and thus always followed what the emperor said to the letter. Whereas Malcador saw the Emperor more like an equal and a colleague, and wasn't afraid to speak up and challenge the emperor if he believed that the emperor was making a mistake.
Ironically, the emperor had much more respect for Malcador than he ever had for any of his "sons", and was closer to him. Dorn was perplexed and somewhat jealous over this.
BrianDavion wrote: Dorn's worse then Russ. there's an intreasting scene in Wolfsbane where they end up talking about Nikea and Russ admits that his line on Psykers was, in retrospect, a mistake, and that Magnus should have been censors for how far he went but that Librarians where proving their worth. Dorn went off on him and they got in a huge fight because Dorn was incapable of stepping back and saying "yeah this was a mistake" and changing course.
Wow, I really need to read the new fluff. If what you are saying is true, that is a moment of introspection for Russ that I genuinely thought him incapable of. In all of the older fluff Russ was portrayed as a massive douche who saw absolutely no problem with condemning Magnus at nikea, whilst still using rune priests freely, and who took a great amount of joy in slaughtering every living thing on Prospero and never felt bad about it, even when he found out later he had been tricked by Horus into doing it. As far as I remember his attitude about the affair was "Well it sucks to be Magnus then... never liked the guy so I have no sympathy for him". He was also portrayed as illiterate and proud of the fact, it caused some friction between him and the Lion because the Lion was a scholar as well as a warrior and Russ saw that as unmanly.
Wolfsbane is VERY MUCH a "Must read core heresy novel" IMHO.
It addresses some intreasting points.
(as well as being our first look at Heresy Era Cawl)
Yep got to agree, I am about halfway through the book and it goes a long way to resolving the current mary sueness of cawl, now he is an actual character rather than what I said before
"Yeah I also think its a possibility and Cawl does indeed need to be fleshed out, at the moment he is just a plot device to hand wave things into the setting, but I am looking foward to seeing exactly how he achieved some of the things he has."
Guy Haley is the same writer who wrote Dark Imperium, I suspect he's always been very cogonant of the fact that one day someone will have to explain "who is this guy, and where did he come from" and proably made sure he got the ball rolling.
BrianDavion wrote: Dorn's worse then Russ. there's an intreasting scene in Wolfsbane where they end up talking about Nikea and Russ admits that his line on Psykers was, in retrospect, a mistake, and that Magnus should have been censors for how far he went but that Librarians where proving their worth. Dorn went off on him and they got in a huge fight because Dorn was incapable of stepping back and saying "yeah this was a mistake" and changing course.
Wow, I really need to read the new fluff. If what you are saying is true, that is a moment of introspection for Russ that I genuinely thought him incapable of. In all of the older fluff Russ was portrayed as a massive douche who saw absolutely no problem with condemning Magnus at nikea, whilst still using rune priests freely, and who took a great amount of joy in slaughtering every living thing on Prospero and never felt bad about it, even when he found out later he had been tricked by Horus into doing it. As far as I remember his attitude about the affair was "Well it sucks to be Magnus then... never liked the guy so I have no sympathy for him". He was also portrayed as illiterate and proud of the fact, it caused some friction between him and the Lion because the Lion was a scholar as well as a warrior and Russ saw that as unmanly.
Wolfsbane is VERY MUCH a "Must read core heresy novel" IMHO.
It addresses some intreasting points.
(as well as being our first look at Heresy Era Cawl)
Yep got to agree, I am about halfway through the book and it goes a long way to resolving the current mary sueness of cawl, now he is an actual character rather than what I said before
"Yeah I also think its a possibility and Cawl does indeed need to be fleshed out, at the moment he is just a plot device to hand wave things into the setting, but I am looking foward to seeing exactly how he achieved some of the things he has."
Guy Haley is the same writer who wrote Dark Imperium, I suspect he's always been very cogonant of the fact that one day someone will have to explain "who is this guy, and where did he come from" and proably made sure he got the ball rolling.
While I dont rate guy "random plot twist" halyey normally, I have both enjoyed dark imperium and wolfbane (so far), he writes good dialogue but boring action scenes (very much he went here and did that then this happened), but to the point, its about time we got something on Cawl and more importantly, Russ actually facing the consequences of his actions with magnus and showing true regret, now I dont consider him a traitor anymore.
BrianDavion wrote: Dorn's worse then Russ. there's an intreasting scene in Wolfsbane where they end up talking about Nikea and Russ admits that his line on Psykers was, in retrospect, a mistake, and that Magnus should have been censors for how far he went but that Librarians where proving their worth. Dorn went off on him and they got in a huge fight because Dorn was incapable of stepping back and saying "yeah this was a mistake" and changing course.
Wow, I really need to read the new fluff. If what you are saying is true, that is a moment of introspection for Russ that I genuinely thought him incapable of. In all of the older fluff Russ was portrayed as a massive douche who saw absolutely no problem with condemning Magnus at nikea, whilst still using rune priests freely, and who took a great amount of joy in slaughtering every living thing on Prospero and never felt bad about it, even when he found out later he had been tricked by Horus into doing it. As far as I remember his attitude about the affair was "Well it sucks to be Magnus then... never liked the guy so I have no sympathy for him". He was also portrayed as illiterate and proud of the fact, it caused some friction between him and the Lion because the Lion was a scholar as well as a warrior and Russ saw that as unmanly.
Wolfsbane is VERY MUCH a "Must read core heresy novel" IMHO.
It addresses some intreasting points.
(as well as being our first look at Heresy Era Cawl)
Yep got to agree, I am about halfway through the book and it goes a long way to resolving the current mary sueness of cawl, now he is an actual character rather than what I said before
"Yeah I also think its a possibility and Cawl does indeed need to be fleshed out, at the moment he is just a plot device to hand wave things into the setting, but I am looking foward to seeing exactly how he achieved some of the things he has."
Guy Haley is the same writer who wrote Dark Imperium, I suspect he's always been very cogonant of the fact that one day someone will have to explain "who is this guy, and where did he come from" and proably made sure he got the ball rolling.
While I dont rate guy "random plot twist" halyey normally, I have both enjoyed dark imperium and wolfbane (so far), he writes good dialogue but boring action scenes (very much he went here and did that then this happened), but to the point, its about time we got something on Cawl and more importantly, Russ actually facing the consequences of his actions with magnus and showing true regret, now I dont consider him a traitor anymore.
Honestly, good dialogue is something that makes me forgive mediocre action sequences as even the well written action sequences in 40k are often pretty much the same. there's only so many ways to write "he shot the guy with his bolt gun"
Ain’t that the truth Brian, my favourite parts of the lore have always been the ground level conversations, primarchs showing very real human emotion and fears, normal people just trying to get by on an imperial world, musings on how the warp works, not bolter porn, never that.
"you treat all as a game, that is why malcador sent for me, malcador cannot trust you, no one can trust you, your legion is a rabble that would brawl among themselves if you were not there to smack their heads together" Lion
OMG, are Space Wolves the Orks of the Imperium? HA!
Mr Morden wrote: It used to be that Russ saw the futility of the fight and stopped to laugh, but the Lion punched him out anyway.
Its interesting as the Lion in the HH books has been consistently a complete and total dick from day one and the old story would fit that very well.
He still is, even with his character being fleshed out, he is still a dick but he doesn’t mean to be, i and others have theorised that he is autistic, he does what he does because he just doesn’t get why people would do anything else, he is right because he is the smartest so you should listen to him, that’s basically (very basically) the lion in a nutshell.
Mr Morden wrote: It used to be that Russ saw the futility of the fight and stopped to laugh, but the Lion punched him out anyway.
Its interesting as the Lion in the HH books has been consistently a complete and total dick from day one and the old story would fit that very well.
He still is, even with his character being fleshed out, he is still a dick but he doesn’t mean to be, i and others have theorised that he is autistic, he does what he does because he just doesn’t get why people would do anything else, he is right because he is the smartest so you should listen to him, that’s basically (very basically) the lion in a nutshell.
I think you might be right
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Formosa wrote: Ain’t that the truth Brian, my favourite parts of the lore have always been the ground level conversations, primarchs showing very real human emotion and fears, normal people just trying to get by on an imperial world, musings on how the warp works, not bolter porn, never that.
Agreed. my favorite HH novels have been ones with a buncha talking, people complained about the lack of action in Unremembered Empire but I LOVED it
Mr Morden wrote: It used to be that Russ saw the futility of the fight and stopped to laugh, but the Lion punched him out anyway.
Its interesting as the Lion in the HH books has been consistently a complete and total dick from day one and the old story would fit that very well.
He still is, even with his character being fleshed out, he is still a dick but he doesn’t mean to be, i and others have theorised that he is autistic, he does what he does because he just doesn’t get why people would do anything else, he is right because he is the smartest so you should listen to him, that’s basically (very basically) the lion in a nutshell.
Perturabo is that way as well. He grew up with an adoptive father that used him as a glorified battle supercomputer, and whose abilities made others in the court so fearful and jealous of him he faced nearly constant assassination attempts. He grew extremely paranoid and cynical and just preferred to be left alone with his machines and inventions.
When the emperor finally came, nothing really changed. Lo and behold, his real father now also used him as a glorified battle supercomputer. His paranoid nature and experiences with court intrigue on Olympia caused him to be very guarded with his new brothers, which they regarded as insulting so they treated him like crap in return, which caused him to become even more paranoid and withdrawn. You do things his way, because quite simply it is the best way, and he can show you the mathematical theorems that prove it. Doing anything else is just another example of "normies" being frustrating and illogical.
Mr Morden wrote: It used to be that Russ saw the futility of the fight and stopped to laugh, but the Lion punched him out anyway.
Its interesting as the Lion in the HH books has been consistently a complete and total dick from day one and the old story would fit that very well.
He still is, even with his character being fleshed out, he is still a dick but he doesn’t mean to be, i and others have theorised that he is autistic, he does what he does because he just doesn’t get why people would do anything else, he is right because he is the smartest so you should listen to him, that’s basically (very basically) the lion in a nutshell.
Perturabo is that way as well. He grew up with an adoptive father that used him as a glorified battle supercomputer, and whose abilities made others in the court so fearful and jealous of him he faced nearly constant assassination attempts. He grew extremely paranoid and cynical and just preferred to be left alone with his machines and inventions.
When the emperor finally came, nothing really changed. Lo and behold, his real father now also used him as a glorified battle supercomputer. His paranoid nature and experiences with court intrigue on Olympia caused him to be very guarded with his new brothers, which they regarded as insulting so they treated him like crap in return, which caused him to become even more paranoid and withdrawn. You do things his way, because quite simply it is the best way, and he can show you the mathematical theorems that prove it. Doing anything else is just another example of "normies" being frustrating and illogical.
That’s an interesting interpretation of it, mine was different slightly and not saying your wrong just to be clear, we just took something different from the story.
Here’s my take.
Perturabos father actually did love him, he tried and tried to open up to him but the taint was already there so to speak, his entire life the “eye” was watching him and I think that subconsciously made him more paranoid, to such an extent that as you say, he isolated himself and eventually led to his nervous breakdown (awesome scene and quite uncomfortable to read about), like I said it’s just my take though and not nessesarily correct.
"you treat all as a game, that is why malcador sent for me, malcador cannot trust you, no one can trust you, your legion is a rabble that would brawl among themselves if you were not there to smack their heads together" Lion
OMG, are Space Wolves the Orks of the Imperium? HA!
The Orks are only looking for fights, the VI Legion were out for murder.
This is just a theory with a tad of evidence to back it but I'm guessing the VI Legion were designed to be a terror force, they were designed to spread fear of what the Emperor's forces could do, would you rather be liberated by Chapter 1 who look like ultimate warriors or go to war with Chapter 6 who look like ultimate warriors but also have sideburns, fangs and golden eyes and rumour says they turn into monsters and slaughter entire planets?
They were designed in isolation like the Alpha Legion and Salamanders and all their pre-Heresy stories are of excess brutality, they kind of mellow out after the Heresy.
If you read Lukas the Trickster he claims that the Space wolves were mellowed by the Fenrisian culture of alcohol and hero worship.
Formosa wrote: Perturabos father actually did love him...
Not trying to be offensive but what makes you think that? When the emperor came and liberated Olympia and installed Perturabo as planetary governor, Perturabo's former "father" led an armed rebellion and fought to the bitter end because he refused to accept Perturabo's rulership. It's also kind of Perturabo's shtick that he doesn't really want to be a "weapon", he just wanted to build things and invent in a laboratory somewhere, away from everyone. He was forced into military service by his adoptive father who noticed his aptitude for analytical thinking and strategy. Once the emperor showed up he was once again forced into military service in the Great Crusade by his real father. He kind of convinced himself by saying "Ok well I don't really want to do this, but I can kind of create a great, wonderful and perfect Imperium of man by doing this so I guess it isn't so horribly intolerable, and if I'm going to do it then I'm going to do it the right way, MY way". He also had a massive superiority complex because he was so used to being so much better then all of the "normal" humans around him on Olympia and he kind of carried that attitude with him into the greater Imperium, where it wasn't exactly warranted as much.
Don't get me wrong, Perturabo had his flaws as a human being, but he was by no means an evil person at heart, just utterly pragmatic to the point that others saw him as abrasive even when there was no malicious intent behind his actions. The decimation of his own legion was a perfect example. His perfectionism rankled at that fact that his legion, was by no means "bad" but really couldn't hold a candle to the other legions. It was also a way for him to really get across the point to his men that he was in charge and they were going to do things his way, and if they didn't shape up there would be consequences. Guess what? It worked. He was just completely bewildered as to why other people (Guilliman in particular) hated him for it. Was he not simply doing his job by the most efficient means possible? The emperor actually even approved it, so why did others complain? He just didn't understand what the big deal was. It didn't help that culturally, the practice of decimation was a common and accepted practice among the warlords of Olympia so again, doubly so he was doing nothing wrong, at least in his mind.
Honestly, there was nothing predetermining him to fall to chaos like Curze or Angron (the moment the emperor teleported Angron away from Desh'elika Ridge he doomed him to fall). Other primarchs, (especially Russ) have done far worse things than Perturabo and still remained loyal and were still accepted by the Imperium. IMO Perturabo falling to chaos could have been easily avoided if the emperor actually treated him like a son instead of a weapon, and his brothers were less douchebags toward him and made allowances for his bad attitude due to the environment from which he came. It also would have helped if Perturabo would have gotten credit where it was due for his victories instead of other legions swooping in at the last moment after the battle had already been won by the Iron Warriors and intentionally trying to steal the glory *COUGH* Imperial Fists *COUGH*.
Formosa wrote: Perturabos father actually did love him...
Not trying to be offensive but what makes you think that? When the emperor came and liberated Olympia and installed Perturabo as planetary governor, Perturabo's former "father" led an armed rebellion and fought to the bitter end because he refused to accept Perturabo's rulership. It's also kind of Perturabo's shtick that he doesn't really want to be a "weapon", he just wanted to build things and invent in a laboratory somewhere, away from everyone. He was forced into military service by his adoptive father who noticed his aptitude for analytical thinking and strategy. Once the emperor showed up he was once again forced into military service in the Great Crusade by his real father. He kind of convinced himself by saying "Ok well I don't really want to do this, but I can kind of create a great, wonderful and perfect Imperium of man by doing this so I guess it isn't so horribly intolerable, and if I'm going to do it then I'm going to do it the right way, MY way". He also had a massive superiority complex because he was so used to being so much better then all of the "normal" humans around him on Olympia and he kind of carried that attitude with him into the greater Imperium, where it wasn't exactly warranted as much.
Don't get me wrong, Perturabo had his flaws as a human being, but he was by no means an evil person at heart, just utterly pragmatic to the point that others saw him as abrasive even when there was no malicious intent behind his actions. The decimation of his own legion was a perfect example. His perfectionism rankled at that fact that his legion, was by no means "bad" but really couldn't hold a candle to the other legions. It was also a way for him to really get across the point to his men that he was in charge and they were going to do things his way, and if they didn't shape up there would be consequences. Guess what? It worked. He was just completely bewildered as to why other people (Guilliman in particular) hated him for it. Was he not simply doing his job by the most efficient means possible? The emperor actually even approved it, so why did others complain? He just didn't understand what the big deal was. It didn't help that culturally, the practice of decimation was a common and accepted practice among the warlords of Olympia so again, doubly so he was doing nothing wrong, at least in his mind.
Honestly, there was nothing predetermining him to fall to chaos like Curze or Angron (the moment the emperor teleported Angron away from Desh'elika Ridge he doomed him to fall). Other primarchs, (especially Russ) have done far worse things than Perturabo and still remained loyal and were still accepted by the Imperium. IMO Perturabo falling to chaos could have been easily avoided if the emperor actually treated him like a son instead of a weapon, and his brothers were less douchebags toward him and made allowances for his bad attitude due to the environment from which he came. It also would have helped if Perturabo would have gotten credit where it was due for his victories instead of other legions swooping in at the last moment after the battle had already been won by the Iron Warriors and intentionally trying to steal the glory *COUGH* Imperial Fists *COUGH*.
Wait... before I reply properly to this I need to check if you have read primarchs peturabo as I may be dropping spoilers a lot if you haven’t.
Formosa wrote: Wait... before I reply properly to this I need to check if you have read primarchs peturabo as I may be dropping spoilers a lot if you haven’t.
I have not, as that is a relatively recent addition to the black library. But go ahead, I don't mind spoilers.
Most of what I know about Perturabo's background comes from older fluff like Angel Exterminatus.
Formosa wrote: Wait... before I reply properly to this I need to check if you have read primarchs peturabo as I may be dropping spoilers a lot if you haven’t.
I have not, as that is a relatively recent addition to the black library. But go ahead, I don't mind spoilers.
Most of what I know about Perturabo's background comes from older fluff like Angel Exterminatus.
Coolio I will put it in a spoiler tag though.
Spoiler:
Ok, so it turns out it wasnt the tyrant of locos that started the rebellion, it was peturabos sister and it wasnt really a rebellion, I will let you read it to see what I mean, suffice to say Perty at this point is already verging on the edge of being a broken man, and the "rebellion" gives him that push, he goes back to olympia, has a little meeting and sets the Iron Warriors on the populace, some agree, some dont, he then goes to the palace and meets his sister, who is old now, odd thing is, he actually liked his sister originally, almost loved her, they have a conversation, which alone is worth the read of the entire book, and he kills her, which is the straw that broke the camels back so to speak, Peturabo has a full on nervous breakdown, he realises that his father really did love him and wasnt trying to use him and time and time again he reached out to bring in into his family properly, he realised it was him that caused issues with his brothers, not his brothers hating him, and he realises that he has murdered his sister for telling the truth, so when Forrix? IIRC finds him, he is a sobbing mess sitting with his back to the wall, its pretty heart breaking.
Automatically Appended Next Post: oh caveat, I am missing out a looooooooooooooot, read the book, its really really good.
Wow, I really do need to read the new stuff. If what you say is true, it puts a whole new spin on Perturabo's fall. He was portrayed super sympathetically in Angel Exterminatus, and you really got a feel for why he did the things he did and acted the way he acted. You got to see how badly his brothers treated him, how uncaring the emperor was towards him, how crappy his upbringing on Olympia was, and how badly him and his legion got spit on while doing the worst of the fighting and the dying on crusade while the rest of the legions sopped up the glory. In one part, the IW are fighting a super entrenched enemy on a fortress world, they spent months carefully cracking the defenses little by little and taking massive casualties the entire time. Then right before the final assault, Dorn comes along and basically says something along the lines of "Hey Perturabo, what's taking so long with that world? It doesn't look too tough, I betcha me and my Imperial Fists boys can take it in a single day." He then proceeds to assault the fortress using Perturabo's own battle plan, and takes minimal casualties while doing it because the IW have been systematically weakening, starving and depleting the ammunition of the defenders. Dorn then turns around and says "See? What did I tell you? You really need to get it together little brother." All of the other primarchs are super impressed and shower Dorn with accolades, while Perturabo sits in the corner grinding his teeth, not being able to say anything because it would make him look even more petulant and jealous than his brothers already thought he was. TBH after I read that novel, I put the tragedy of Perturabo's fall up there with Magnus'.
But those stories were from Perturabo's perspective, and it would be interesting to see how much of that stuff was actually in his own head and how much was real.
OP is right. I mentally have a boner for Dark Angels, but Russ would never say that. Theres nothing worse than reading a book about your favourite characters when that book makes them look bad despite their name being in the title...
They were evenly matched. The author is just a schmuck.
Mr Morden wrote: It used to be that Russ saw the futility of the fight and stopped to laugh, but the Lion punched him out anyway.
Its interesting as the Lion in the HH books has been consistently a complete and total dick from day one and the old story would fit that very well.
He still is, even with his character being fleshed out, he is still a dick but he doesn’t mean to be, i and others have theorised that he is autistic, he does what he does because he just doesn’t get why people would do anything else, he is right because he is the smartest so you should listen to him, that’s basically (very basically) the lion in a nutshell.
I always feel a little bad for the Lion. He has no idea how to interact with people but that's pretty normal for growing up alone in a forest full of chaos beasts. All things considered I think the Lion is doing fantastically.
123ply wrote: OP is right. I mentally have a boner for Dark Angels, but Russ would never say that. Theres nothing worse than reading a book about your favourite characters when that book makes them look bad despite their name being in the title...
Agreed
I was quite irritated by the portrayal of Neferata in Lord of Undeath by C L Werner
Rather than being powerful, dangerous and manipulative she is weak and pretty much scared of her own shadow (as is the only named handmaiden) unlike of course the male vampires.....UGHH after the brilliant portrayals of her in previous BL Novels (highlighting both her good and bad points) it was really poor - hoping the new book is better.
123ply wrote: OP is right. I mentally have a boner for Dark Angels, but Russ would never say that. Theres nothing worse than reading a book about your favourite characters when that book makes them look bad despite their name being in the title...
Agreed
I was quite irritated by the portrayal of Neferata in Lord of Undeath by C L Werner
Rather than being powerful, dangerous and manipulative she is weak and pretty much scared of her own shadow (as is the only named handmaiden) unlike of course the male vampires.....UGHH after the brilliant portrayals of her in previous BL Novels (highlighting both her good and bad points) it was really poor - hoping the new book is better.
It is, don't worry. She plays everybody like the string section of an orchestra.
123ply wrote: OP is right. I mentally have a boner for Dark Angels, but Russ would never say that. Theres nothing worse than reading a book about your favourite characters when that book makes them look bad despite their name being in the title...
Agreed
I was quite irritated by the portrayal of Neferata in Lord of Undeath by C L Werner
Rather than being powerful, dangerous and manipulative she is weak and pretty much scared of her own shadow (as is the only named handmaiden) unlike of course the male vampires.....UGHH after the brilliant portrayals of her in previous BL Novels (highlighting both her good and bad points) it was really poor - hoping the new book is better.
It is, don't worry. She plays everybody like the string section of an orchestra.
Good I liked the short story so looking forward to this one - I didn't realise it was out yet?
I couldn't get into the early HH novels featuring the Lion I will admit.
123ply wrote: OP is right. I mentally have a boner for Dark Angels, but Russ would never say that. Theres nothing worse than reading a book about your favourite characters when that book makes them look bad despite their name being in the title...
Agreed
I was quite irritated by the portrayal of Neferata in Lord of Undeath by C L Werner
Rather than being powerful, dangerous and manipulative she is weak and pretty much scared of her own shadow (as is the only named handmaiden) unlike of course the male vampires.....UGHH after the brilliant portrayals of her in previous BL Novels (highlighting both her good and bad points) it was really poor - hoping the new book is better.
It is, don't worry. She plays everybody like the string section of an orchestra.
Good I liked the short story so looking forward to this one - I didn't realise it was out yet?
I couldn't get into the early HH novels featuring the Lion I will admit.
Just an answer before this goes off topic, but the ltd ed is out. I don't get them normally, but I fell hard for the cover.
Delvarus, honestly you are just coming across as extremely TRIGGERED that Russ got beat by one of his brothers.
You realize that nearly ever single HH novel slightly changes/adds/subtracts from previous lore? Do we all scream 'BIAS!' every time we find out old legends didn't happen exactly how we had always thought? No we don't.
And to quote previous 'lore' as concrete truth is a fools errand. GW changes lore with every book, codex or white dwarf that comes out.
I liked the short story so looking forward to this one - I didn't realise it was out yet?