Hey, having just spent 2 days at the LGT I want to discuss a few solutions I have, to the issues the tournament had. Before I begin I want to list the positive aspects of the tournament before I go into a critique -
The Good
Amazing venue, easy to access.
The TO was helpful and responded quickly to every query.
The concept of a tournament this size in the EU was ambitious and overall a benefit to the hobby/community.
The marketing, collaboration and sales experience before the event, were both excellent and very professional.
The Bad
Too Capitalistic
Terrain
Detailed list submission format and point deductions
Physical space between the tables
Lack of easily available food/water.
Non-logical table numbering
Lack of flexibility in accounting for timing issues
London is a terrible city and terribly over costed.
Not enough organizers.
People with disabilities are not catered for.
Rather than simply complain about the event the most helpful thing I can do is suggest solutions to the areas that need improving. A lot of the issues in planning the tournament came about due to the cost of renting space in London, which meant a lot of finances would have been diverted away from making the gaming experience more enjoyable.
Solutions
Move the LGT out of London to other cities in the UK (ie Manchester, Cardiff, Leeds etc). This would require a name change of course... EGT/BGT.
Doing this would bring the costs down and potentially increase the size of the venue. London is an international city, not a British one, moving the event each year would be chance to showcase the 'Best of Britain' for the international community.
Collaborate with hobby groups, brick and motor stores, and professional hobbyists outside of the GW corporate sphere.
This would benefit the tournament in a few ways - 1. You could source high-quality terrain and tables from the groups. 2. Easy access paid/non-apid volunteers. 3. Sponsorship and price support
Hobbyists, such as Lukesapps, could provide help provide ideas and concepts for scratch-building decent massed terrain at a fraction of the cost.
Free food and organizing deals with fast food restaurants
The stadium had only 1 food court, with a limited expensive and set menu. Contacting takeaways, and doing massed orders would have helped the customer experience. The Caledonian tournaments have a good system in which pizzas are ordered before the event.
Support people with disabilities such as dyslexia, dyspraxia, autism etc.
People should be given the option of declaring their disabilities, which in turn should be catered for. People with dyslexia shouldn't be penalized for making a mistake with their lists. People with dyspraxia should be given extra time to finish their games. People with a physical disability should be given their own table to avoid the need to move around.
Gamers being far less tolerant of pishpoor organizers rather than putting up with it under the one-way 'community' excuse but I suspect this sort of shambles will recur due to short memorys and the previously mentioned 'community' delusions
London is an amazing city. Although I do agree that there are many places which could host a large scale tournament. How about Scotland? Glasgow has so many excellent, affordable venues, a thriving game scene, easy to access.
Most of what I have seen simply reads as an event that grew to fast to quick and didn't know how to handle it.
Not working close enough with the venue leads to lack of people to do security checks. if you tell them 500 people with 2+ bags each will be at the door at opening time they know to send more then 1 bag checker. Same with food. everyone will want food in the break times (which are only 15 minutes) so its mad rush hour every 2.5h and then nothing. You can't handle that with 1 food stand.
Everything was crammed on 1 floor round 1? Again lack of planning, The venue would have told you its not allowed for safety reasons and the TO could have spread it out from the start.
Once stuff gets moved any resemblance of a floor plan you had is gone.
As for terrain, your talking 180+ tables for the 40kGT alone. Your not going to get that much terrain from a few clubs offering you theirs.
Turnip Jedi wrote: Gamers being far less tolerant of pishpoor organizers rather than putting up with it under the one-way 'community' excuse but I suspect this sort of shambles will recur due to short memorys and the previously mentioned 'community' delusions
^^^This. A thousand times this.
The simple solution here is to vote with your wallet. I didn't go but from what I've just looked at it's not a tournament I would ever want to attend in the future. There are loads of tournaments of all sizes in the UK so it's not even as if you can argue we need to help demonstrably bad TOs (note in this case "bad" is being used to cover any manner of failings from gross incompetence, to being out of their depth, to whatever other reasons there were for the problems in London) in order to keep the scene going.
I'd also say the problems at tournaments seem to increase massively the larger the attendance, which isn't that surprising. Maybe as a community we need to re-evaluate what can manageably be provided in the way of tournaments and stop aspiring to hosting massive events with more and more people. Size shouldn't be an indicator of quality in these events yet I note the LGT thread in the Tournament forum has that as one of the selling points. Perhaps not so wise considering what happened?
I like the idea of moving it between cities. The Warmachine WTC changes countries every year and that works fine. It stops people from having their lives revolve around planning an event all year.
As I said in the thread on the tournament discussion page it seems like a major problem was that the organisation of the...organisers wasn't great for something of this scale. From the start they should have had a small group whose sole job was terrain, then another whose job was venue stuff etc. London is a big city, I don't believe they would have been undermanned or lacked volunteers at any point.
Turnip Jedi wrote: Gamers being far less tolerant of pishpoor organizers rather than putting up with it under the one-way 'community' excuse but I suspect this sort of shambles will recur due to short memorys and the previously mentioned 'community' delusions
^^^This. A thousand times this.
The simple solution here is to vote with your wallet. I didn't go but from what I've just looked at it's not a tournament I would ever want to attend in the future. There are loads of tournaments of all sizes in the UK so it's not even as if you can argue we need to help demonstrably bad TOs (note in this case "bad" is being used to cover any manner of failings from gross incompetence, to being out of their depth, to whatever other reasons there were for the problems in London) in order to keep the scene going.
The thing is, will voting with your wallet actually achieve anything? This was a popular event in terms of numbers; if everyone who attended was so disappointed they didn't go next year, I'm almost certain other people will simply take their place instead. The organiser will learn nothing, as numbers will remain the same.
I'm not so sure wherever a new city would help, but perhaps a new venue in London. We have the ExCel, Alexandra Palace, Earl's Court and the Olympia amongst others, all of which are far more suitable for this type of event.
In terms of terrain, yes there were many, many tables, but there was also plenty of time to get things prepped. The fact that the bloke didn't start sorting out terrain until a week and a half before the event speaks volumes about the overall organisation.
I think I'm being more vocal about this than other topics; this was my first tournament experience (although I didn't play), and the fact remains that they had a £40,000 or so budget to go off for this, there was no indication of this anywhere. I'm not accusing the guy of doing a runner with the money but you have to wonder how they've justified this.
How empty were the tables? If expense/time was an issue why not just make 2D terrain with heights written on them as necessary? While it may not be aesthetically pleasing at least all the tables could have been covered with a proper amount of terrain.
Just to be clear 2D could even be felt cut outs with writing on them saying what they were.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: How empty were the tables? If expense/time was an issue why not just make 2D terrain with heights written on them as necessary? While it may not be aesthetically pleasing at least all the tables could have been covered with a proper amount of terrain.
Just to be clear 2D could even be felt cut outs with writing on them saying what they were.
The tables had a sufficient amount of terrain, it was the quality. With such a high budget they had settled on pieces of polystyrene foam haphazardly glued together, very wobbly and unstable. While the 2D terrain would be easier to create, it'd also create big LoS issues.
And whilst I concur wallet voting really only helps the individual get over being taken for a mug feeling as like has been said there is always someone else naively functioning under the assumption gamers wont abuse other gamers trust, but thousand cuts and that (UK Gencon being a pertinent example)
Detailed list submission format and point deductions
Could you elaborate on these two? I'm especially curious on why the latter is bad.
The FAQ had only been posted a few weeks prior to the deadline and a lot of people suffer from dyslexia. Making a mistake before the event itself shouldn't ruin your tournament score.
Basic services (water/food) were overpriced.
Turnip Jedi wrote: Gamers being far less tolerant of pishpoor organizers rather than putting up with it under the one-way 'community' excuse but I suspect this sort of shambles will recur due to short memorys and the previously mentioned 'community' delusions
I'm sure the TO is just as upset with the result as the gamers were, but he's the only guy in the UK who could organize an event like this therefore we should really support him rather than hurl insults at him.
The FAQ had only been posted a few weeks prior to the deadline and a lot of people suffer from dyslexia. Making a mistake before the event itself shouldn't ruin your tournament score.
Ah, ok. Did they penalize if you had it in on time, but had to change it because of rules issues?
1) What does the OP mean by "Too capitalistic?"
2) Haven't both LVO and AdeptiCon handled tournaments of 500+ people without having the issues listed by the OP? If so, why did the LGT have issues when they could have just copied what LVO and AdeptiCon did?
1) What does the OP mean by "Too capitalistic?"
2) Haven't both LVO and AdeptiCon handled tournaments of 500+ people without having the issues listed by the OP? If so, why did the LGT have issues when they could have just copied what LVO and AdeptiCon did?
Thanks in advance for any insight
SG
1. Making basic/essential commodities expensive (water food etc).
2. London is an overcrowded city, space is very expensive. Had this been in any other city in the UK, they wouldn't have had the issues they did,
iddy00711 wrote: 1. Making basic/essential commodities expensive (water food etc).
2. London is an overcrowded city, space is very expensive. Had this been in any other city in the UK, they wouldn't have had the issues they did,
I honestly don't know the cost of things like water or food are at Magic The Gathering tournaments, but they run usually 700 to 900 people. Granted, play area is much smaller for MTG, but it's the same concept. Star City Games holds tournaments in many large cities here in the US, and I haven't yet heard of any issues with food/water being too expensive. They always have plenty of staff, judges, etc. They always have plenty of room for the players. Granted, you may be sitting with two way overweight guys on either side of you with nearly no room to move at times, sure. But, that just comes with MTG.
I'm aware that the UK is smaller than the US, and granted, they haven't yet tried to hold a tournament on say Manhattan Island in New York City. But, they don't seem to have a problem finding places (even in these very large cities) to accommodate 900 people.
I guess that's what confuses me. With so many examples of ways to handle large tournaments (be it MTG or Warhammer), it shouldn't be too difficult to follow those examples. But, I can also say that I don't live in the UK, so I'm not sure how easy that would be.
Those tables are an absolute disgrace IMHO. I don't care the size of the venue, number of players etc, you had to have known that for months. You start really early and you get help. Hopefully this will improve for the players next year.
1) What does the OP mean by "Too capitalistic?"
2) Haven't both LVO and AdeptiCon handled tournaments of 500+ people without having the issues listed by the OP? If so, why did the LGT have issues when they could have just copied what LVO and AdeptiCon did?
Thanks in advance for any insight
SG
Except you don't have a clue how much work is done behind the scenes to run something like Adepticon or LVO and you don't see that unless your directly involved in the process.
Ordana wrote: Except you don't have a clue how much work is done behind the scenes to run something like Adepticon or LVO and you don't see that unless your directly involved in the process.
I'm sure that LGT could have talked to the organizers of LVO and/or AdeptiCon and gotten all the info they needed. It's not like these gaming conferences/tournaments are in competition with each other. They are at different times of the year. So, I have a feeling the organizers of LVO and AdeptiCon wouldn't have had any issues sharing info on how to handle a tournament that big.
bullyboy wrote: Those tables are an absolute disgrace IMHO. I don't care the size of the venue, number of players etc, you had to have known that for months. You start really early and you get help. Hopefully this will improve for the players next year.
Yea the attempt at terrain was absolutely diabolical! Even just a cursory effort to disguise the fact is was foam would have helped.
iddy00711 wrote: 1. Making basic/essential commodities expensive (water food etc).
2. London is an overcrowded city, space is very expensive. Had this been in any other city in the UK, they wouldn't have had the issues they did,
I honestly don't know the cost of things like water or food are at Magic The Gathering tournaments, but they run usually 700 to 900 people. Granted, play area is much smaller for MTG, but it's the same concept. Star City Games holds tournaments in many large cities here in the US, and I haven't yet heard of any issues with food/water being too expensive. They always have plenty of staff, judges, etc. They always have plenty of room for the players. Granted, you may be sitting with two way overweight guys on either side of you with nearly no room to move at times, sure. But, that just comes with MTG.
I'm aware that the UK is smaller than the US, and granted, they haven't yet tried to hold a tournament on say Manhattan Island in New York City. But, they don't seem to have a problem finding places (even in these very large cities) to accommodate 900 people.
I guess that's what confuses me. With so many examples of ways to handle large tournaments (be it MTG or Warhammer), it shouldn't be too difficult to follow those examples. But, I can also say that I don't live in the UK, so I'm not sure how easy that would be.
SG
Most places in the UK a beer is £5 or less London £10 or more, it is basically the UK version of Manhattan. It has it's advantages but a lot of downsides.
The FAQ had only been posted a few weeks prior to the deadline and a lot of people suffer from dyslexia. Making a mistake before the event itself shouldn't ruin your tournament score.
Do you not have any friends that could of double checked your list before hand?
leopard wrote: Having worked in London until last year I'm struggling to think of what those advantages would be for a gaming event?
Just about anywhere else is easier to get to, and more pleasant to get to, and cheaper, and more spacious.
Londons a hole at the best of times
I've been lucky enough to only have to visit with work, but I think half the problem with London is Londoners really.
Our American partners usually find London easier to get to, but they have now I must admit tend to prefer visiting us in Edinburgh over London. But our European partners still find London easier to get to.
Ice_can wrote: I've been lucky enough to only have to visit with work, but I think half the problem with London is Londoners really.
Our American partners usually find London easier to get to, but they have now I must admit tend to prefer visiting us in Edinburgh over London. But our European partners still find London easier to get to.
Could that be because of Heathrow Airport? If I'm not mistaken, it's the busiest airport in the world making getting into London easier than anywhere else in the UK.
If coming from outside the UK an industrial park nearer an airport would be a better venue.
Agree a fair bit of the problem with out capital relate to its inhabitants.
Londons only real advantage is being the hub of the rail network, and if you are depending upon that antique to get you to an event I wish you luck at a weekend
Probably more to do with having London City, Heathrow, Gatwick airports, though it doesn't make it less of an overpriced nightmare to spend any time in.
Support people with disabilities such as dyslexia, dyspraxia, autism etc.
People should be given the option of declaring their disabilities, which in turn should be catered for. People with dyslexia shouldn't be penalized for making a mistake with their lists. People with dyspraxia should be given extra time to finish their games. People with a physical disability should be given their own table to avoid the need to move around.
I'm both dyspraxic and (currently) on crutches. I just realised reading this that is probably a massive contributor to why I didn't finish any games.
I'm sorry but I can't agree with this sentiment. I recognize the problems that these people may have but where do you draw the line? If someone is morbidly obese do you give them more room or a bigger chair so that they are more comfortable?
When you go to a competitive event then you are there to compete doing your best while your opponent does the same. The game should be level for both players. If one or both of the players have special needs then they should account for it when playing or, if they feel that they can't compete without some special help they should look for an event that caters to that problem.
Also a terrible way to attract new blood or advertise your event. The absolute best part of playing 40k is the spectacle of it. Those tables are a waste of opportunity.
Ordana wrote: Except you don't have a clue how much work is done behind the scenes to run something like Adepticon or LVO and you don't see that unless your directly involved in the process.
I'm sure that LGT could have talked to the organizers of LVO and/or AdeptiCon and gotten all the info they needed. It's not like these gaming conferences/tournaments are in competition with each other. They are at different times of the year. So, I have a feeling the organizers of LVO and AdeptiCon wouldn't have had any issues sharing info on how to handle a tournament that big.
SG
The organisers of LVO and Nova were all in attendance, so it's not like they weren't aware. The Frontline Gaming guys were even handling all the registration of stuff on the BCP app, so they were helping out already.
Really the simple answer for the LGT team is to do what they were paid to do and organise. Every single issue that occurred was a direct result of failure to plan. Everything was much too slipshod for the scale they were trying to run the event at - the sort of lazy mistakes they made, like failing to account for the dimensions of the rooms properly, or managing the pressure on food stalls or the pressure to get terrain painted, are things you can get away with when there's 40 people coming. With 400+ tickets sold you need to sacrifice your time months ahead to get it ready instead of trying to start your big terrain build 11 days before kickoff.
I'd consider going back - in two years time, assuming they run an event I can trust in 2019. Not touching it until after they've managed to run one without problems though.
Most places in the UK a beer is £5 or less London £10 or more, it is basically the UK version of Manhattan. It has it's advantages but a lot of downsides.
This just isn't true. At all. I spend a lot time in London and while it is true that it is more expensive than other parts of the UK, it's not that much more.
Most places in the UK a beer is £5 or less London £10 or more, it is basically the UK version of Manhattan. It has it's advantages but a lot of downsides.
This just isn't true. At all. I spend a lot time in London and while it is true that it is more expensive than other parts of the UK, it's not that much more.
Let it be known that I didn't write that. Misquoted.
In London most pubs will have an ale on for around £4. Lager is more likely to be a bit more expensive, but should be below £5 - especially for Carling or the like. Hipster beer (your premium European lagers, your increasingly-American "all the grapefruit" craft IPAs) can move towards £6 but rarely more than that.
You can probably (but not always) knock a quid off you expectation if you are in another city centre (a Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Brighton, Edinburgh etc). Then the further you go from civilisation the cheaper it gets. When working up in Scotland a year or so ago I found a pub in Grangemouth which was still doing pints for £1.60 - it was as if 20~ years inflation had happened to other people (and, to be fair, it probably had.)
The issue is that you are at an event at a conference centre. Its like eating at a motorway service station or an airport. You are a captive market and they hike the price accordingly (also it costs them more to bring stuff in/staff the place, but not nearly as much).
I can bet booking out a wing in Birmingham's NEC would be cheaper than the Olympic Stadium - but food and drink is still going to be expensive. It certainly isn't getting dolled out for free. There might be even cheaper places (how mean do I want to be?) but in a major city its going to be much of a muchness.
Really the disorganisation was a sign this was a first time/amateurly run event.
The terrain looks awful - but to some degree I can understand the problems of getting matching terrain for 180 or however many tables. I suspect doing it properly would have cost £50-100 per table, which for one event is a major sum of money. Cynically I'd argue GW could have chipped in - which supposedly they did - but then you have the issue of wanting all those tables to match each other.
My main thoughts are that the Olympic Stadium was a stupid place to host this and more time needed to be spent. That does however add to the cost - and I suspect the hosts didn't have the pockets to take potential losses.
Tyel wrote: In London most pubs will have an ale on for around £4. Lager is more likely to be a bit more expensive, but should be below £5 - especially for Carling or the like. Hipster beer (your premium European lagers, your increasingly-American "all the grapefruit" craft IPAs) can move towards £6 but rarely more than that.
You can probably (but not always) knock a quid off you expectation if you are in another city centre (a Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Brighton, Edinburgh etc). Then the further you go from civilisation the cheaper it gets. When working up in Scotland a year or so ago I found a pub in Grangemouth which was still doing pints for £1.60 - it was as if 20~ years inflation had happened to other people (and, to be fair, it probably had.)
The issue is that you are at an event at a conference centre. Its like eating at a motorway service station or an airport. You are a captive market and they hike the price accordingly (also it costs them more to bring stuff in/staff the place, but not nearly as much).
I can bet booking out a wing in Birmingham's NEC would be cheaper than the Olympic Stadium - but food and drink is still going to be expensive. It certainly isn't getting dolled out for free. There might be even cheaper places (how mean do I want to be?) but in a major city its going to be much of a muchness.
Really the disorganisation was a sign this was a first time/amateurly run event.
The terrain looks awful - but to some degree I can understand the problems of getting matching terrain for 180 or however many tables. I suspect doing it properly would have cost £50-100 per table, which for one event is a major sum of money. Cynically I'd argue GW could have chipped in - which supposedly they did - but then you have the issue of wanting all those tables to match each other.
My main thoughts are that the Olympic Stadium was a stupid place to host this and more time needed to be spent. That does however add to the cost - and I suspect the hosts didn't have the pockets to take potential losses.
I couldn't care less about the price of beer. Tax is a thing, and it's an expensive drink.
I took issue with the price of bottled water. A large glass' worth was £3.50, on a hot day, [Around 21 degrees C] in an event with precious little ventilation, and lots of windows to let in the sunlight, and a two day ban on so much as bringing your own bottle to drink with,
There's a difference in charging for luxuries, and extorting your customers so they don't suffer heatstroke and dehyradition.
iddy00711 wrote: 1. Making basic/essential commodities expensive (water food etc).
2. London is an overcrowded city, space is very expensive. Had this been in any other city in the UK, they wouldn't have had the issues they did,
I honestly don't know the cost of things like water or food are at Magic The Gathering tournaments, but they run usually 700 to 900 people. Granted, play area is much smaller for MTG, but it's the same concept. Star City Games holds tournaments in many large cities here in the US, and I haven't yet heard of any issues with food/water being too expensive. They always have plenty of staff, judges, etc. They always have plenty of room for the players. Granted, you may be sitting with two way overweight guys on either side of you with nearly no room to move at times, sure. But, that just comes with MTG.
I'm aware that the UK is smaller than the US, and granted, they haven't yet tried to hold a tournament on say Manhattan Island in New York City. But, they don't seem to have a problem finding places (even in these very large cities) to accommodate 900 people.
I guess that's what confuses me. With so many examples of ways to handle large tournaments (be it MTG or Warhammer), it shouldn't be too difficult to follow those examples. But, I can also say that I don't live in the UK, so I'm not sure how easy that would be.
SG
Most places in the UK a beer is £5 or less London £10 or more, it is basically the UK version of Manhattan. It has it's advantages but a lot of downsides.
Where do you live? I ask because that's a skewed idea of the relative costs that is just untrue.
I live in Leeds, and travel to London regularly. I hardly notice any difference in the cost of a pint.
It seems like the OP's issues are more the fault of the organiser and venue than the host city. There are conferences held for much larger gatherings that manage to feed everybody on time.
Not the UK, but I attended a work conference in Florida last year that fed 8k people in the 1 hour lunch break. It's all about the preparation and having a system that works.
But yeh. Those tables are an eyesore. Wasn't there a minimum painting standard for armies at this event?
AdmiralHalsey wrote: . . .on a hot day, [Around 21 degrees C] . . .
There's a difference in charging for luxuries, and extorting your customers so they don't suffer heatstroke and dehyradition.
What qualifies as "hot" in the UK is as hilarious to me, as I'm sure what qualifies as "cold" in Texas is hilarious to you. As I type this, it's 27 C outside, and I was just remarking how beautiful the weather is. We hit 38 C last week twice.
Your hatred for London is bizarre OP. There is no reason London can't have a gaming event. Just because these guys ran a shitshow doesn't someone else could have done better. The fact is, if the terrain had been handled even modestly and they'd hired two more people to man the bag checking then there would have been no uproar.
There were many more mistakes - food should have been more readily available and accessible (subsidised ideally).
That's ignoring accessibility and fire safety issues which are a legal requirement.
Basically the way to fix this event would be to have event management experts run it. Not these amateurs.
I honestly think the best way to fix the event would be to have someone else run it, and probably to downscale it a bit so that it can grow naturally.
The problems are the same every year - bad organisation, gak terrain and a general sense that we should all be greatful for being there. It has none or the fun or sense of event that something like NOVA has.
Partly I think this is because big events, while nominally based around a competitive tournament, are anything but. An event of that size will have 50 or so super-competitive ETC tournament regulars, but most ticket buyers are there for a fun weekend or beer and games with different people to their usual group. Big events need to keep that in mind, and regularly do. I would argue that the majority of people buying tickets for the GT would prefer really good quality interesting terrain that matches the playing surface to identical, competitive but gak polystyrene. They’ll be the majority in the lower 300 of the table, but they’re still the ones paying for the event.
However, the tournament organisers ARE the competitive ETC sorts and run the entire event with only that demographic in mind. Hence, beautiful gaming mats with consistently gak terrain across all three years and refusal to use alternatives even when offered them. Prize packages which are pretty huge but no extra money spent on things that matter. Tons of people to make it the BIGGEST event, but no space between tables. The actual competitive 40kGT meticulously organised but no thought put into the entry, the food, the bar, the atmosphere, the seminars, any of the side events (which is a lot of ticket sales).
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I'm sorry but I can't agree with this sentiment. I recognize the problems that these people may have but where do you draw the line? If someone is morbidly obese do you give them more room or a bigger chair so that they are more comfortable?
When you go to a competitive event then you are there to compete doing your best while your opponent does the same. The game should be level for both players. If one or both of the players have special needs then they should account for it when playing or, if they feel that they can't compete without some special help they should look for an event that caters to that problem.
Honestly I never wanted more time for the dyspraxia, the problem was simply moving round the hall when there was less than two feet between tables. It's hardly an in game advantage to ask for the tables to be placed in such a way that people can make there way to there table on time, or as suggested above if someone can't move around well just assign them a table by the door. To be fair all the players were very helpful with the whole crutches thing, but it still made it take alot longer to get to tables. Especially as there was no logical layout and I had to stop when the pain got bad from wandering around looking.
ArbitorIan wrote: I honestly think the best way to fix the event would be to have someone else run it, and probably to downscale it a bit so that it can grow naturally.
The problems are the same every year - bad organisation, gak terrain and a general sense that we should all be greatful for being there. It has none or the fun or sense of event that something like NOVA has.
Partly I think this is because big events, while nominally based around a competitive tournament, are anything but. An event of that size will have 50 or so super-competitive ETC tournament regulars, but most ticket buyers are there for a fun weekend or beer and games with different people to their usual group. Big events need to keep that in mind, and regularly do. I would argue that the majority of people buying tickets for the GT would prefer really good quality interesting terrain that matches the playing surface to identical, competitive but gak polystyrene. They’ll be the majority in the lower 300 of the table, but they’re still the ones paying for the event.
However, the tournament organisers ARE the competitive ETC sorts and run the entire event with only that demographic in mind. Hence, beautiful gaming mats with consistently gak terrain across all three years and refusal to use alternatives even when offered them. Prize packages which are pretty huge but no extra money spent on things that matter. Tons of people to make it the BIGGEST event, but no space between tables. The actual competitive 40kGT meticulously organised but no thought put into the entry, the food, the bar, the atmosphere, the seminars, any of the side events (which is a lot of ticket sales).
This looks like it might be pretty close to the truth. We have pictures of crates of terrain that GW supplied sitting unused, presumably because it didn't fit the terrain maps the TO had already provided. Rather than providing tables that look good they'd prefer to give people awful-looking terrain as long as it matches the tournament pack. I know which of the two I'd prefer. It makes the lack of terrain even more bizarre, though, now that I think about it. If it was all set out in the tournament pack there's no excuse for not having exactly the right number and type of terrain pieces for each table. The one thing that strikes me about the terrain, other than how absolutely terrible it looks, is the complete lack of verticality. Playing on that must be so dull. I'm sure it's because it's easier to make and more consistent to just have LoS blockers rather than slightly different types of ruin.
AdmiralHalsey wrote: I took issue with the price of bottled water. A large glass' worth was £3.50, on a hot day, [Around 21 degrees C] in an event with precious little ventilation, and lots of windows to let in the sunlight, and a two day ban on so much as bringing your own bottle to drink with,
There's a difference in charging for luxuries, and extorting your customers so they don't suffer heatstroke and dehyradition.
Seriously? SERIOUSLY? They prevent bringing in food&drinks and charge like hell?
Phew. Makes me even more happy to play in Finland. Albeit we can't buy food at the tournament place(but plenty restaurants nearby usually) but you can bring your own at will. Often even refridgerator available.
Support people with disabilities such as dyslexia, dyspraxia, autism etc.
People should be given the option of declaring their disabilities, which in turn should be catered for. People with dyslexia shouldn't be penalized for making a mistake with their lists. People with dyspraxia should be given extra time to finish their games. People with a physical disability should be given their own table to avoid the need to move around.
I'm both dyspraxic and (currently) on crutches. I just realised reading this that is probably a massive contributor to why I didn't finish any games.
1. You have plenty of time to review your list to submit it. Mistakes still get made and honestly those people don't have an excuse either. You. Have. Time.
2. Their own table? How much space do you think exists at theae events overall?
Most places in the UK a beer is £5 or less London £10 or more, it is basically the UK version of Manhattan. It has it's advantages but a lot of downsides.
This just isn't true. At all. I spend a lot time in London and while it is true that it is more expensive than other parts of the UK, it's not that much more.
It was me that said it and I only ever do corporate entertainment in London and thats what we're usually paying, if you know the place there maybe cheaper places, but I certainly wouldn't be advising visitors going walking around large parts of London. I've certainly never found it to be a friendly or particularly safe feeling city.
Did the venue sell alcohol?
A quick google tells me you are legally entitled to free tab water if they sell alcohol, you just have to ask for it (tho they can charge you for the glass and gak).
2. Their own table? How much space do you think exists at theae events overall?
Please explain how scheduling table allocations so that disabled people don't need to move between tables (unless two of them end up matched against each other) takes up any more space.
Ordana wrote: Did the venue sell alcohol?
A quick google tells me you are legally entitled to free tab water if they sell alcohol, you just have to ask for it (tho they can charge you for the glass and gak).
Know your laws people.
Wasnt there, but could just have been location of drinks compare to play area, and if you had to walk through 3 other tables/players it could have been a pain.
So, I kinda disagree with a chunk of what has been said so far, but not all.
Sure, not allowing food and drink in, is an annoyance, but pretty much every venue does this – even things like the majority of cinemas and other venues. They did however provide free tap water and cups. I don’t think most people realised this though as no one told anyone about it.
London is pretty easy to get around. Each day took me roughly 15-20 mins on the tube to and from my hotel. The walk from the Stratford tube station to the stadium took just as long. Sure, it isn’t always ideal to be travelling on the tube everywhere – especially if you have a couple of very large bags, but, it is certainly cheaper and quicker and easier than having to organise taxis or work out the buses. Travel would have been a pain regardless of where the event was held.
Food price wise, didn’t seem too excessive. Cost me £4 for nachos, where a burger and chips came to about £6.50. Wasn’t a great deal of food, but, hardly the wallet shattering cost of most places. For example, a pizza in my hotel the evening before the event cost me £14, with a beer costing me another ~£6. Any venue will have higher prices. All I did on Saturday evening was drop into one of the food courts at the Olympic part centre on the way back to the tube station and got something for half the price.
In regards to list submission and dyslexia, I’m sorry, but it isn’t an excuse to have an incorrect list. There are so many tools and people out there to help check things that any issues with illegal/incorrect lists lies with the writer. Sure, due to the timing of the FAQ, just over 2 weeks wasn’t ideal, BUT, it is still plenty of time to design a list and check it line by line dozens of times. Players then had 3 weeks after submission to prepare the physical list AND fix any issues found between submission date and the event date. Most lists were also checked on the google doc page and issues highlighted.
As for points cost issues in your own list, again, if you have extreme issues with numbers there are people and aids out there. Brand brand brand new players will of course potentially experience issues with list construction, but, I doubt there were many – if any, at the event.
I agree that the layout and support for people with certain disabilities wasn’t great. Things could certainly have been done way better in this regard.
Terrain was functional, but embarrassing for a “European leading” event.
Organisation was pretty piss poor as well.
Final scoring – I have no idea what my final event score was. I know how many points I got from gaming, but I can’t find anywhere that tells me what my total event score was. Did I lose points for my list, or was it ok? I’m guessing my painting score was fine cos no one checked it, but I don’t know. Sportmanship score?
Edit – just found the final rankings (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DIRs_CZsfrKfBDelZa_tVUrlkSgyk-Koevd-wQH1RrU/edit#gid=0)
Not got 100% confidence in the scoring for everyone though, as no one seems to have been given the correct points for list submission. I’m also pretty sure there were more than 29 late and incorrect lists when I was doing some list checking.
The whole thing kinda makes me wish I had the ability to just run the whole thing myself with a team.
Support people with disabilities such as dyslexia, dyspraxia, autism etc.
People should be given the option of declaring their disabilities, which in turn should be catered for. People with dyslexia shouldn't be penalized for making a mistake with their lists. People with dyspraxia should be given extra time to finish their games. People with a physical disability should be given their own table to avoid the need to move around.
I'm both dyspraxic and (currently) on crutches. I just realised reading this that is probably a massive contributor to why I didn't finish any games.
1. You have plenty of time to review your list to submit it. Mistakes still get made and honestly those people don't have an excuse either. You. Have. Time.
2. Their own table? How much space do you think exists at theae events overall?
Extra time not always needed, I'm Dyspraxic and I have adapted, alot to point people take time to tell unless I'm writing... I cannot hide it there, especially hand writing.
This is a very particular things. And very much varries on the person. So so much intangibles per person, blanket policy maybe should be swapped to asking those what adjustments can be made in sensible reason. Same as those with mobility issues. And work somthing out back and forth to suit that person. Yes this takes time but I can guarantee that would be very much respected among some players.
Yes, those who less mobile need more space, or options to support them this nothing big, you are meant to do what you can to support disabilities. Simple as allowing more room between and chairs, also heights for wheel chair. Yeah that's not hard...
As for them breaking fire safety rules and blocking exits... Bad bad bad... That's the kinda stuff that gets you fined into the thousands and thousands.
In general...
This is a example od one that's grown too big, too fast. Downsize abit. Grow into scale, build your terrain a and so over time and contacts etc.
Find a better location, more space or less players. Better access to food. There's tons of convention and so venues in the city better equiped than this one.
Kdash wrote: So, I kinda disagree with a chunk of what has been said so far, but not all.
Sure, not allowing food and drink in, is an annoyance, but pretty much every venue does this – even things like the majority of cinemas and other venues. They did however provide free tap water and cups. I don’t think most people realised this though as no one told anyone about it.
London is pretty easy to get around. Each day took me roughly 15-20 mins on the tube to and from my hotel. The walk from the Stratford tube station to the stadium took just as long. Sure, it isn’t always ideal to be travelling on the tube everywhere – especially if you have a couple of very large bags, but, it is certainly cheaper and quicker and easier than having to organise taxis or work out the buses. Travel would have been a pain regardless of where the event was held.
Food price wise, didn’t seem too excessive. Cost me £4 for nachos, where a burger and chips came to about £6.50. Wasn’t a great deal of food, but, hardly the wallet shattering cost of most places. For example, a pizza in my hotel the evening before the event cost me £14, with a beer costing me another ~£6. Any venue will have higher prices. All I did on Saturday evening was drop into one of the food courts at the Olympic part centre on the way back to the tube station and got something for half the price.
In regards to list submission and dyslexia, I’m sorry, but it isn’t an excuse to have an incorrect list. There are so many tools and people out there to help check things that any issues with illegal/incorrect lists lies with the writer. Sure, due to the timing of the FAQ, just over 2 weeks wasn’t ideal, BUT, it is still plenty of time to design a list and check it line by line dozens of times. Players then had 3 weeks after submission to prepare the physical list AND fix any issues found between submission date and the event date. Most lists were also checked on the google doc page and issues highlighted.
As for points cost issues in your own list, again, if you have extreme issues with numbers there are people and aids out there. Brand brand brand new players will of course potentially experience issues with list construction, but, I doubt there were many – if any, at the event.
I agree that the layout and support for people with certain disabilities wasn’t great. Things could certainly have been done way better in this regard.
Terrain was functional, but embarrassing for a “European leading” event.
Organisation was pretty piss poor as well.
Final scoring – I have no idea what my final event score was. I know how many points I got from gaming, but I can’t find anywhere that tells me what my total event score was. Did I lose points for my list, or was it ok? I’m guessing my painting score was fine cos no one checked it, but I don’t know. Sportmanship score?
Edit – just found the final rankings (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DIRs_CZsfrKfBDelZa_tVUrlkSgyk-Koevd-wQH1RrU/edit#gid=0)
Not got 100% confidence in the scoring for everyone though, as no one seems to have been given the correct points for list submission. I’m also pretty sure there were more than 29 late and incorrect lists when I was doing some list checking.
The whole thing kinda makes me wish I had the ability to just run the whole thing myself with a team.
I have server dyslexia (An example of how bad, I literally cant see/read music notes, it looks like spinning crossed eye lines with moving dots), and i think the same, there is no reason to not have a proper list, battlescribe/spreadsheets with internet for help and others, along with calculators etc... there is no excuse. (Honestly i'm on forums so much is to practice, i have a list of things to work on everyday, it does help.. a bit, but only with some words, pictures/directions and memory doesnt tho).
Support people with disabilities such as dyslexia, dyspraxia, autism etc.
People should be given the option of declaring their disabilities, which in turn should be catered for. People with dyslexia shouldn't be penalized for making a mistake with their lists. People with dyspraxia should be given extra time to finish their games. People with a physical disability should be given their own table to avoid the need to move around.
I'm both dyspraxic and (currently) on crutches. I just realised reading this that is probably a massive contributor to why I didn't finish any games.
1. You have plenty of time to review your list to submit it. Mistakes still get made and honestly those people don't have an excuse either. You. Have. Time.
2. Their own table? How much space do you think exists at theae events overall?
Not 100% why I got quoted for that. I'm not dyslexic and my list was perfect. I don't think 'their own table' meant a special table, just put people who can't move around on the same table every round. That's not an extra table needed, it's not even an overhead on time really.
Being on crutches making it hard to get to the tables made the dyspraxia a factor in this event. It isn't usually, I can compensate, I've won largish tournaments (not the majors) in the past, I've placed top 5 many many times. The stress of being in pain and confused as to where to go whilst not being able to move around properly messed with my coping mechanisms for the dyspraxia though, as they require a high level of concentration.
Kdash wrote: So, I kinda disagree with a chunk of what has been said so far, but not all.
Sure, not allowing food and drink in, is an annoyance, but pretty much every venue does this – even things like the majority of cinemas and other venues. They did however provide free tap water and cups. I don’t think most people realised this though as no one told anyone about it.
London is pretty easy to get around. Each day took me roughly 15-20 mins on the tube to and from my hotel. The walk from the Stratford tube station to the stadium took just as long. Sure, it isn’t always ideal to be travelling on the tube everywhere – especially if you have a couple of very large bags, but, it is certainly cheaper and quicker and easier than having to organise taxis or work out the buses. Travel would have been a pain regardless of where the event was held.
Food price wise, didn’t seem too excessive. Cost me £4 for nachos, where a burger and chips came to about £6.50. Wasn’t a great deal of food, but, hardly the wallet shattering cost of most places. For example, a pizza in my hotel the evening before the event cost me £14, with a beer costing me another ~£6. Any venue will have higher prices. All I did on Saturday evening was drop into one of the food courts at the Olympic part centre on the way back to the tube station and got something for half the price.
In regards to list submission and dyslexia, I’m sorry, but it isn’t an excuse to have an incorrect list. There are so many tools and people out there to help check things that any issues with illegal/incorrect lists lies with the writer. Sure, due to the timing of the FAQ, just over 2 weeks wasn’t ideal, BUT, it is still plenty of time to design a list and check it line by line dozens of times. Players then had 3 weeks after submission to prepare the physical list AND fix any issues found between submission date and the event date. Most lists were also checked on the google doc page and issues highlighted.
As for points cost issues in your own list, again, if you have extreme issues with numbers there are people and aids out there. Brand brand brand new players will of course potentially experience issues with list construction, but, I doubt there were many – if any, at the event.
I agree that the layout and support for people with certain disabilities wasn’t great. Things could certainly have been done way better in this regard.
Terrain was functional, but embarrassing for a “European leading” event.
Organisation was pretty piss poor as well.
Final scoring – I have no idea what my final event score was. I know how many points I got from gaming, but I can’t find anywhere that tells me what my total event score was. Did I lose points for my list, or was it ok? I’m guessing my painting score was fine cos no one checked it, but I don’t know. Sportmanship score?
Edit – just found the final rankings (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DIRs_CZsfrKfBDelZa_tVUrlkSgyk-Koevd-wQH1RrU/edit#gid=0)
Not got 100% confidence in the scoring for everyone though, as no one seems to have been given the correct points for list submission. I’m also pretty sure there were more than 29 late and incorrect lists when I was doing some list checking.
The whole thing kinda makes me wish I had the ability to just run the whole thing myself with a team.
I have server dyslexia (An example of how bad, I literally cant see/read music notes, it looks like spinning crossed eye lines with moving dots), and i think the same, there is no reason to not have a proper list, battlescribe/spreadsheets with internet for help and others, along with calculators etc... there is no excuse. (Honestly i'm on forums so much is to practice, i have a list of things to work on everyday, it does help.. a bit, but only with some words, pictures/directions and memory doesnt tho).
I think my original post was a bit too blunt, so, I want to quickly apologise if I offended anyone with it.
If it really is a problem, then, I believe the player should be able to highlight this in confidence with the organisers, and the organisers would then provide aid to the player.
@Amishprn86 I really do commend you for the efforts you’re putting in, on here and your approach to getting things right!
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I'm sorry but I can't agree with this sentiment. I recognize the problems that these people may have but where do you draw the line? If someone is morbidly obese do you give them more room or a bigger chair so that they are more comfortable?
Well, yes? It's something that would be done at a good LGS if it was available, why should it be any different at a tournament?
When you go to a competitive event then you are there to compete doing your best while your opponent does the same. The game should be level for both players. If one or both of the players have special needs then they should account for it when playing or, if they feel that they can't compete without some special help they should look for an event that caters to that problem.
I don't see how catering to someone with a disability that they cannot remedy is somehow going to threaten the balance or level of a game (which in my opinion is horribly balanced anyway if we're talking 40k, but that's a topic for another thread); giving someone with dyspraxia extra time to finish a game is hardly going to tip the balance one way or another, especially when they actually could need that time to finish.
Even if you disagree with this, it's something that should be done; the only alternatives would be to ignore it, or recommend players who have these conditions to not partake in the tournament, and if that's going to be the case, then GT will have a big problem keeping people from having a bad taste in their mouth at the event's ethical conduct.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I'm sorry but I can't agree with this sentiment. I recognize the problems that these people may have but where do you draw the line? If someone is morbidly obese do you give them more room or a bigger chair so that they are more comfortable?
Well, yes? It's something that would be done at a good LGS if it was available, why should it be any different at a tournament?
When you go to a competitive event then you are there to compete doing your best while your opponent does the same. The game should be level for both players. If one or both of the players have special needs then they should account for it when playing or, if they feel that they can't compete without some special help they should look for an event that caters to that problem.
I don't see how catering to someone with a disability that they cannot remedy is somehow going to threaten the balance or level of a game (which in my opinion is horribly balanced anyway if we're talking 40k, but that's a topic for another thread); giving someone with dyspraxia extra time to finish a game is hardly going to tip the balance one way or another, especially when they actually could need that time to finish.
Even if you disagree with this, it's something that should be done; the only alternatives would be to ignore it, or recommend players who have these conditions to not partake in the tournament, and if that's going to be the case, then GT will have a big problem keeping people from having a bad taste in their mouth at the event's ethical conduct.
I'd also think that a number of anti discrimination laws etc would be very close if maybe not being broken.
But morally and publicly is that the view we want to have of 40k players, unwilling to help and discriminatory?
I couldn't care less about the price of beer. Tax is a thing, and it's an expensive drink.
I took issue with the price of bottled water. A large glass' worth was £3.50, on a hot day, [Around 21 degrees C] in an event with precious little ventilation, and lots of windows to let in the sunlight, and a two day ban on so much as bringing your own bottle to drink with,
There's a difference in charging for luxuries, and extorting your customers so they don't suffer heatstroke and dehyradition.
LOL, 21 degrees=hot Ah it's a big old world isn't it.
But people can't bring their own bottles? That's just obnoxious.
What qualifies as "hot" in the UK is as hilarious to me, as I'm sure what qualifies as "cold" in Texas is hilarious to you. As I type this, it's 27 C outside, and I was just remarking how beautiful the weather is. We hit 38 C last week twice.
We hit 44C/111F in Delhi today. I'm thinking I might take off my tie.
Where do you find the time to give someone with a disability more time to play their round? Every tournament schedule is always packed. Its simply not feasible.
Having a separate table for someone with a wheelchair or on crutches is another matter entirely especially in an otherwise crowded setup.
Tho you would need to contact the TO so they know to set it up.
Ice_can wrote:I'd also think that a number of anti discrimination laws etc would be very close if maybe not being broken.
But morally and publicly is that the view we want to have of 40k players, unwilling to help and discriminatory?
I can't speak for laws as I don't really know them, but it is definitely the right thing to do; at the end of the day a tournament is meant to be for enjoyment, and making people as comfortable as possible should always be kept in mind.
ChazSexington wrote:How on Earth is "too capitalistic" a valid criticism of a wargaming tournament?
And what do you mean by it? I'm utterly at a loss to understand this.
I believe the OP was referencing how food and drink at the venue was both limited and expensive. Don't know if there's a fix to that, since I've seen it at both Adepticon and Salute this year, but that seems to be the point they were making.
Ordana wrote: Where do you find the time to give someone with a disability more time to play their round? Every tournament schedule is always packed. Its simply not feasible.
If a schedule is too packed, the solution could always be to have more assistance for the particular players via people working at the venue, akin to having a scribe in an exam; they'd help move your stuff around, maybe do rolls on your behalf, but nothing like tactical decisions. Chances are there wouldn't be that many people who would need the extra assistance, so I doubt doing something along those lines would stretch volunteers out very much.
Ordana wrote: Where do you find the time to give someone with a disability more time to play their round? Every tournament schedule is always packed. Its simply not feasible.
Having a separate table for someone with a wheelchair or on crutches is another matter entirely especially in an otherwise crowded setup.
Tho you would need to contact the TO so they know to set it up.
Doesnt' need neccessarily separate table. ESPECIALLY on these tables that are 100% identical. Just have the wheelchaired etc play on easy to access tables like on the edges. Table sandwitched between 2 is going to be harder to get to. Why assign wheelchaired there? Especially when tables are identical and even irrelevant are you on one side or other.
ChazSexington wrote: How on Earth is "too capitalistic" a valid criticism of a wargaming tournament?
And what do you mean by it? I'm utterly at a loss to understand this.
Seems a valid criticism to me. It's one thing to take customers for every cent they've got, but quite another to make them feel it
Outrageous water prices+banning outside drinks and bottles (if I read that right) is certainly an example of being too greedy/mercenary. Skimping on things like terrain also make it feel like a rip off.
ChazSexington wrote: How on Earth is "too capitalistic" a valid criticism of a wargaming tournament?
And what do you mean by it? I'm utterly at a loss to understand this.
Seems a valid criticism to me. It's one thing to take customers for every cent they've got, but quite another to make them feel it
Outrageous water prices+banning outside drinks and bottles (if I read that right) is certainly an example of being too greedy/mercenary. Skimping on things like terrain also make it feel like a rip off.
Well seems there WAS put free water canisters but one day not on easy to spot locations it seems. 2nd day bit better. But information about that seems to have been not that well out.
And no own water still stinks. Do I want to leave table to go find water middle of game? Good luck trying to stay on time! I drink lots during games.
Ordana wrote: Where do you find the time to give someone with a disability more time to play their round? Every tournament schedule is always packed. Its simply not feasible.
Having a separate table for someone with a wheelchair or on crutches is another matter entirely especially in an otherwise crowded setup.
Tho you would need to contact the TO so they know to set it up.
I would hope that their opponent would be willing to help move models and communicate. That's probably the most that could be done time-wise. Maybe if the tournament organizer asked if anyone had disabilities that needed assistance so they could notify players to be aware and helpful.
Ordana wrote: Where do you find the time to give someone with a disability more time to play their round? Every tournament schedule is always packed. Its simply not feasible.
Having a separate table for someone with a wheelchair or on crutches is another matter entirely especially in an otherwise crowded setup.
Tho you would need to contact the TO so they know to set it up.
I would hope that their opponent would be willing to help move models and communicate.
From what I've heard from Dakka, 40k games are played with players only allowed to speak after the game starts and only then to question your opponents rules in case their might be a grammatical issue that someone can take advantage of.
As a location I can't understand the problem with choosing London, infrastructure is great, hotels and public transport everywhere. Expense wise, it's no more than most UK cities. Likewise crime/safety
The venue itself seemed suitable if properly planned and not oversold
The organisers simply made a mess of it.
Turnip Jedi wrote: Gamers being far less tolerant of pishpoor organizers rather than putting up with it under the one-way 'community' excuse but I suspect this sort of shambles will recur due to short memorys and the previously mentioned 'community' delusions
I'm sure the TO is just as upset with the result as the gamers were, but he's the only guy in the UK who could organize an event like this therefore we should really support him rather than hurl insults at him.
I think you might have misinterpreted the gist of my point, it wasn't a dig at any given TO its just that (possibly erroneous) realization that there's money to be had from the gamer community for these type of events means unscrupulous sorts may well take advantage of gamers good nature to tolerate bad events by mistaking a business transition for 'community' and we need to be on our toes to deter sharp practice
Looking at this event I suspect it was a common hobby occurance of too much hobby not enough business, but enthusiasm is not an excuse at £50 a pop
And whilst London is an awesome city, somewhere more central might have been better (and cheaper) but that wanders into the old London vs The Rest argument that just gets overheated
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I'm sorry but I can't agree with this sentiment. I recognize the problems that these people may have but where do you draw the line? If someone is morbidly obese do you give them more room or a bigger chair so that they are more comfortable?
Umm, you draw the line at where the Equality Act 2010 says so? It is pretty clear...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ordana wrote: As for terrain, your talking 180+ tables for the 40kGT alone. Your not going to get that much terrain from a few clubs offering you theirs.
Really? I think you underestimate the amount of clubs in the London area and their stores of terrain! Hell the two clubs I frequent could have done 30 tables between them, more if you don't mind fantasy terrain. Also quite possible to ask people to bring x amount of terrain each and reduce the ticket price. Lots of options that don't involve stripping the ceiling of polystyrene tiles, gluing it all together and saying get playing...
Slipspace wrote: I'd also say the problems at tournaments seem to increase massively the larger the attendance, which isn't that surprising. Maybe as a community we need to re-evaluate what can manageably be provided in the way of tournaments and stop aspiring to hosting massive events with more and more people. Size shouldn't be an indicator of quality in these events yet I note the LGT thread in the Tournament forum has that as one of the selling points. Perhaps not so wise considering what happened?
There have been 1000+ blood bowl tourneys, plenty of people to reach out to about how to do these things.
To be fair it he is American so the Equality Act of 2010 isn't a thing here. Here it would be the Americans with Disabilities act.
For the most part it is common sense though. If someone has a disability that will make it difficult to move around it is easier to keep them on the same table every round.
For list writing I don't think much should be done there as that is done ahead of time and the person in question should have the ability to get their list checked prior to competition by a friend, or the internet.
Perspective of an American who regularly travels to the UK:
On the surface, London is more expensive than Manchester, Birmingham and Bristol - the other cities I frequent. As a traveler, you pay more for hotels, dining, and transportation. As an event organizer, you pay more for the venue, usually 20% - 40% more, in part because of special surcharges specific to London.
But the reason you choose to set up in London is because that's where everyone else is. Also because of the airport, you don't want someone flying in and to go somewhere else (which only adds to the time and expense.) I usually stay around Victoria, which I understand is the high rent district, but I spend less overall because I don't need to pay for as many other services like taxis and whatnot.
The reason to set up in other cities is not the cost so much as the "charm." While I know London is a special place, I've been there often and everyone I know has been there often. Also, people's impressions about expenses tend to focus on what they are paying for out of pocket. So slightly cheaper hotels, dining, and drinks leave people with a better impression, even if they needed to pay for an extra train ride to get there.
I imagine people in the UK know how to get around far better than I do, these are just my impressions.
I couldn't care less about the price of beer. Tax is a thing, and it's an expensive drink.
I took issue with the price of bottled water. A large glass' worth was £3.50, on a hot day, [Around 21 degrees C] in an event with precious little ventilation, and lots of windows to let in the sunlight, and a two day ban on so much as bringing your own bottle to drink with,
There's a difference in charging for luxuries, and extorting your customers so they don't suffer heatstroke and dehyradition.
LOL, 21 degrees=hot Ah it's a big old world isn't it.
But people can't bring their own bottles? That's just obnoxious.
What qualifies as "hot" in the UK is as hilarious to me, as I'm sure what qualifies as "cold" in Texas is hilarious to you. As I type this, it's 27 C outside, and I was just remarking how beautiful the weather is. We hit 38 C last week twice.
We hit 44C/111F in Delhi today. I'm thinking I might take off my tie.
Yep. As soon as I posted that, I remembered how many Australian and South/Southeast Asian flags I see on the site.
Wow on the not allowed to bring water issue, that crap is flat out illegal in Arizona. I would challenge anyone trying to stop me bringing water to a game.
bullyboy wrote: Wow on the not allowed to bring water issue, that crap is flat out illegal in Arizona. I would challenge anyone trying to stop me bringing water to a game.
They provided free, cool tap water, and also had bottled water available to purchase. It's not like water wasn't available to all attendees, which i think some people are thinking is what happened.
EnTyme wrote: What qualifies as "hot" in the UK is as hilarious to me, as I'm sure what qualifies as "cold" in Texas is hilarious to you. As I type this, it's 27 C outside, and I was just remarking how beautiful the weather is. We hit 38 C last week twice.
One thing you need to remember (and I'm not sure about this particular venue) is that I'm pretty sure most of England is a lot like Seattle. It rarely gets above what we here in the US would consider very comfortable. So, again, if I remember correctly, Air Conditioning pretty much doesn't exist in England. Yes, 21C is what we'd consider a very mild and very nice day here in the US (and especially in Texas), but think about 21C with a lot of sun shining in, no air circulation, no air conditioning, and 500+ people in the same place generating heat. Even by Texas standards, that's going to be uncomfortably hot.
And whilst I concur wallet voting really only helps the individual get over being taken for a mug feeling as like has been said there is always someone else naively functioning under the assumption gamers wont abuse other gamers trust, but thousand cuts and that (UK Gencon being a pertinent example)
Amusing that they specify all models should be painted to tabletop standard. Their tabletop isn't tabletop standard...
I feel like the majority of people in 40k are too agreeable by nature and so these events can (while being great fun) often dry you of money like other nerd events... nerds are a bug business, they easily part with their money. Go to a farmers event in vietnam and something will be a bargin and we'll still haggle for it.
bullyboy wrote: Wow on the not allowed to bring water issue, that crap is flat out illegal in Arizona. I would challenge anyone trying to stop me bringing water to a game.
It's to do with security I believe, or at least that's how they're dressing it up. Currently there's a spate of acid attacks in England and so they want to know what liquids are within any given environment. Also I believe this has been a rule within airports for a few years now.
Sadly a sign of the times.
Airports allow you to bring empty bottles into the passenger area where you are free to fill them with whatever is at hand. Based on what people have said they weren't even allowed to bring in their own bottles.
I guess there's two ways of looking at it. Security is essential, particularly at busy and enclosed events.
But I'm sure there are a few unscrupulous companies using it to their advantage.
Huron black heart wrote: I guess there's two ways of looking at it. Security is essential, particularly at busy and enclosed events.
But I'm sure there are a few unscrupulous companies using it to their advantage.
Quite. Where is the security risk in people bringing an empty bottle? A little plastic cup of water is no good at a busy event where opportunities to get more are limited.
The water thing is being wildly overblown. There was free water available at the bar on the first day, and on the second day they'd brought a table down with a ton of jugs etc. so that it was more available than previously. Absolutely no-one was unable to access water.
Food on the other hand was apocalyptic on the first day. There were simply too many people for the bar staff to cope.
Breng77 wrote: If someone has a disability that will make it difficult to move around it is easier to keep them on the same table every round.
Never mind being disabled, I'm enabled and I would have had trouble getting around! Looks like there was very little room to mingle and appreciate other peoples armies.
Breng77 wrote: If someone has a disability that will make it difficult to move around it is easier to keep them on the same table every round.
Never mind being disabled, I'm enabled and I would have had trouble getting around! Looks like there was very little room to mingle and appreciate other peoples armies.
Can I say... That looks somewhat a safety issue yet alone space. Add chairs. And people and bags... Those route between are tiny. Had anything happened. Your pretty chested there.
That's definitely what I'd call ideal fire safety practices.
ChazSexington wrote: How on Earth is "too capitalistic" a valid criticism of a wargaming tournament?
And what do you mean by it? I'm utterly at a loss to understand this.
Seems a valid criticism to me. It's one thing to take customers for every cent they've got, but quite another to make them feel it
Outrageous water prices+banning outside drinks and bottles (if I read that right) is certainly an example of being too greedy/mercenary. Skimping on things like terrain also make it feel like a rip off.
That's not capitalism - that's just bad business. These tournaments try to break even, nevermind make bank. Renting an Olympic stadium ain't cheap.
ChazSexington wrote:How on Earth is "too capitalistic" a valid criticism of a wargaming tournament?
And what do you mean by it? I'm utterly at a loss to understand this.
I believe the OP was referencing how food and drink at the venue was both limited and expensive. Don't know if there's a fix to that, since I've seen it at both Adepticon and Salute this year, but that seems to be the point they were making.
That's just bad service. If they actually want to make money, they want return customers. But I get the point - thanks for clarifying.
bullyboy wrote: Wow on the not allowed to bring water issue, that crap is flat out illegal in Arizona. I would challenge anyone trying to stop me bringing water to a game.
They provided free, cool tap water, and also had bottled water available to purchase. It's not like water wasn't available to all attendees, which i think some people are thinking is what happened.
I confess on day 3, [Remember, this began on Friday] in the afternoon I discovered one room had one table with some water and glasses on, which I was able to make use of after my 5th game.
Breng77 wrote: If someone has a disability that will make it difficult to move around it is easier to keep them on the same table every round.
Never mind being disabled, I'm enabled and I would have had trouble getting around! Looks like there was very little room to mingle and appreciate other peoples armies.
Can I say... That looks somewhat a safety issue yet alone space. Add chairs. And people and bags... Those route between are tiny. Had anything happened. Your pretty chested there.
That's definitely what I'd call ideal fire safety practices.
IDK how the Laws work over there just in USA (I got hit with fire code a couple times, and they WILL shut you down).
I know for sure this in USA is a fire hazard and is not allowed (as long as the Fire marshal / inspector sees it he will tell you to change it or get shut down). It is law in USA to have 2' room for the person at the table and a 16" clearance between the chairs, its 5 1/2' , (Some states its 5' others its 6')
If i remember correctly you also need 3" between all walls and chairs (not tables) for walking/moving/fire code, and also the Americans with Disabilities Act from 1991, this also made it all doors need to be 3" (per door) restrooms certain sizes, etc..
Breng77 wrote: If someone has a disability that will make it difficult to move around it is easier to keep them on the same table every round.
Never mind being disabled, I'm enabled and I would have had trouble getting around! Looks like there was very little room to mingle and appreciate other peoples armies.
Just one clarification the on fire safety concerns etc.
After game 1, they removed a section of tables which increased the amount of space people had to navigate and get to and from the fire escapes. Up to that point though, they were in breach of the safety regs and laws (and it would probably have stayed that way if no one had raised it).
Kdash wrote: Just one clarification the on fire safety concerns etc.
After game 1, they removed a section of tables which increased the amount of space people had to navigate and get to and from the fire escapes. Up to that point though, they were in breach of the safety regs and laws (and it would probably have stayed that way if no one had raised it).
Aka worried about being shut down if the fire safety was reported, or fined afterwards for breach of health and safety which can be quite a serious offence.
Kdash wrote: Just one clarification the on fire safety concerns etc.
After game 1, they removed a section of tables which increased the amount of space people had to navigate and get to and from the fire escapes. Up to that point though, they were in breach of the safety regs and laws (and it would probably have stayed that way if no one had raised it).
There was no appreciable difference in the amount of space available after game 1. My partner who was with me, was pretty much unable to watch any game I played, because there was physically no space for her around the table. There was about 1 foot clearence between tables, and I kept knocking into the person playing on the table behind me as we were fighting for space.
Kdash wrote: Just one clarification the on fire safety concerns etc.
After game 1, they removed a section of tables which increased the amount of space people had to navigate and get to and from the fire escapes. Up to that point though, they were in breach of the safety regs and laws (and it would probably have stayed that way if no one had raised it).
There was no appreciable difference in the amount of space available after game 1. My partner who was with me, was pretty much unable to watch any game I played, because there was physically no space for her around the table. There was about 1 foot clearence between tables, and I kept knocking into the person playing on the table behind me as we were fighting for space.
How do you even go to the bathroom easily? Games could not have possibly finished in time with all that jostling.
Kdash wrote: Just one clarification the on fire safety concerns etc.
After game 1, they removed a section of tables which increased the amount of space people had to navigate and get to and from the fire escapes. Up to that point though, they were in breach of the safety regs and laws (and it would probably have stayed that way if no one had raised it).
There was no appreciable difference in the amount of space available after game 1. My partner who was with me, was pretty much unable to watch any game I played, because there was physically no space for her around the table. There was about 1 foot clearence between tables, and I kept knocking into the person playing on the table behind me as we were fighting for space.
How do you even go to the bathroom easily? Games could not have possibly finished in time with all that jostling.
Doing anything during the round other than playing the game would have been inadvisable and extremely difficult. Fortunately I had my partner to fetch food and drink for me, which made things a little eaiser,and I took bathroom breaks between rounds.
I can't speak for anyone else in this regard.
It was tight at times, I agree. Game 1, I was stuck between my table and a wall with only enough space for 2 people to shuffle past each other, but, if I am honest, beyond that, I didn’t have that much of an issue moving around when I needed to. Sure, it was lots of dodging and weaving around people, but the important thing was – after game 1, there was a main walk space down the centre of the room, which generally allowed 2 people to walk side by side down without any issue.
I’m not defending the layout, it was far from ideal and comfortable, but I also didn’t find it as much of an issue as some other people did. Purely my own experience though. (It is also worth noting, the tables on the other floors for the 40kGT, had plenty of space. The issue was with the main room)
As for going to the toilet and getting drinks etc, I just did all that before each game, which made things easier and then doesn’t distract from the game for either player. I understand that, “when you have to go, you have to go”, and it’s not always controllable for some people, but – even though it sounds harsh, for the majority of people, it is controllable and comes down to personally foresight and common sense.
I do accept the point, that it would have been difficult for a spectator to be around the table comfortably though. 2 back to back players, a spectator and someone walking past would have made for a difficult 30 seconds.
iddy00711 wrote: Solutions Move the LGT out of London to other cities in the UK (ie Manchester, Cardiff, Leeds etc). This would require a name change of course... EGT/BGT. Doing this would bring the costs down and potentially increase the size of the venue. London is an international city, not a British one, moving the event each year would be chance to showcase the 'Best of Britain' for the international community.
Given that the LGT was specifically intended as a response to the lack of large tournaments in London, this is a completely counter-productive solution.
Moving the tournament elsewhere in the country might adjust the costs, but for anyone in the South of England, your ticket being £10 better value is a bad deal if your train tickets cost £30 more.
Shifting the event to other venues in (or near) London might be a solution (as there were issues with the London Stadium), but moving it elsewhere in the country is pointless, because then the question again becomes "well, where's the big London event?"
It's entirely possible that, yes, the different prices for different parts of the country would give events an advantage as far as beating a London based venue on value for money, but we should be creating new events for that rather than moving existing ones, because often an event's location is part of its selling points.
Sounds like this was a real show. Did anything go right? Did anyone have fun? Was there anything that made it worth it?
From my perspective, if I had traveled from the States to London to play, and saw styrofoam terrain on unpainted tables, no food/water, very crowded play area... I'd be very much inclined to just drop and wonder around in London as a tourist instead.
Everything I saw advertised about this event made it sound like a premium, awesome good time. What happened?!?!?
For the love of Mork (or is it Gork?) that terrain is absolutely pathetic. I don't expect it to be master craftsman made stuff painted to display case standards but something above the "I found this in the trash bin 5 minutes ago" standard is to be expected. They don't want the players to show up with unpainted minis or some soda cans for counts as (drop pods, Killa kans, etc) so the terrain they provide should be held to a similar standard. I love me some makeshift terrain but you gotta at least put some effort into it or be creative instead of blocks of foam.
Support people with disabilities such as dyslexia, dyspraxia, autism etc.
People should be given the option of declaring their disabilities, which in turn should be catered for. People with dyslexia shouldn't be penalized for making a mistake with their lists. People with dyspraxia should be given extra time to finish their games. People with a physical disability should be given their own table to avoid the need to move around.
So, a few points here:
1. Even if someone has dyslexia i should expect they have a legal list. Ultimately it is on you to bring a legal list, and if you have dyslexia take the time to check your list with someone who doesn't have dyslexia before the event.
2. I don't see how you can give extra time to someone to finish their game, logistically. Rounds have a scheduled start and end, which factors in break time, etc. I would not want to play someone with Dyspraxia if it meant that I wouldn't get a lunch break because the round was going 30 minutes longer.
3. Fixing tables is a logistical nightmare, but i agree that the setup should just be better in general. Up the price of the venue and don't cram people in like sardines.
In general everyone should be held to the same standards.
Tamwulf wrote: Sounds like this was a real show. Did anything go right? Did anyone have fun? Was there anything that made it worth it?
Sub-games like 30k etc looked decent with nice looking if bit sparse terrain.
Watched a video somewhere where someone was reading a blog entry from someone who attended the LGT. Seems the AoS, 30K, Shadespire, and Necromunda tables all looked pretty good terrain-wise, but it was also stated that it could have been because people might have brought their own terrain for those games/events.
The point about the size and shape of the terrain is accurate but that does not preclude at least a base coat and dry brush at a minimum. Some flock to mimic vines or some carving detail or something like that would not have been terribly difficult either and would have not made it look like gak.
Damn that guy made a ot of sense, maybe the terrain did look bad but it was crucially LoS blocking so encouraged far more interesting games!
That's what was said on stream every time someone brought up the terrain.
It looks like utter gak but it was functional. And for a tournament I will take gak looking function terrain over good looking but useless stuff.
Ordana wrote: That's what was said on stream every time someone brought up the terrain.
It looks like utter gak but it was functional. And for a tournament I will take gak looking function terrain over good looking but useless stuff.
There is a value to well defined, functional, and consistent terrain for sure.
I think the big problem with the terrain is that the event required players' armies to be painted and based models but the model the TO supplied (the terrain) was the equivalent of barely put together. If you're going to require nice looking armies you should, at least, supply nice looking terrain.
ServiceGames wrote: Seems the AoS, 30K, Shadespire, and Necromunda tables all looked pretty good terrain-wise, but it was also stated that it could have been because people might have brought their own terrain for those games/events.
Speaking as the Inquisitor TO for the weekend, I was offered terrain support* (and I have to assume that other TOs were as well) - I ultimately declined it, as the final ticket sales worked out at a level where the terrain requirements were a level I could feasibly provide/transport myself, even given the relatively dense terrain that Inquisitor favours; being able to know and control exactly what I was working with made writing the plot-line and scenarios for the event much easier.
This, for example, was one of the tables we played on during the weekend. While I still plan to improve the set with doors and extra details it is, I would like to hope, aesthetically acceptable terrain:
A lot of people just seem to be lumping all the terrain at the London GT together, despite the fact that multiple sub-events were involved.
* I did see the terrain we were offered, and it was perfectly reasonable. However, the issue with using it for the main 40K event was that there just wasn't enough for that many tables to all have matching layouts.
Damn that guy made a ot of sense, maybe the terrain did look bad but it was crucially LoS blocking so encouraged far more interesting games!
The first step of the hill was insufficently high to hide a jump pack model, a banner, a tall model, or anything of substance behind. While the two L shaped pieces in the corner were tall enough to block things, they were too small to hide anything but perhaps a 5 man scout squad behind.
I was not terribly enthused by their LOS blocking capability.
As other posters have noted elsewhere, there was zero space to hide any large models behind, so if you brought something like Mortarian, or Magnus, or 1 shadowsword, etc etc, along, and didn't get first turn, it was always dead.
Hi, could we all keep the discussion constructive please.
In response to the list issues, I have never been to a tournament with such a rigorous list submission. You could lose points by not having your list formatted correctly., even if it was technically correct. Here's an example...
ARMY FACTIONS: Demons, Thousand sons
TOTAL COMMAND POINTS: 9
TOTAL ARMY POINTS: 1998 pts
Battalion Detachment
Demons [ Points 977] + 5 CP HQ1: Poxbringer(70), bale sword (0) - [70pts]
HQ2: Smallpox scrinver (75), plaguesword (0) ,a distended maw (0), disgusting sneeze (0)- [75]
Troop1: 3 Nurglings (54), claws and teeth x 3 (0) [54pts]
Troop2: 25 Bloodletters (175), Bloodreaper (0) hellblade x 25 (0), Demonic Icon (15) [190pts]
Troop3: 25 Plaguebearers (175), Plagueridden (0), plague sword x 25 (0) - [175pts]
Troop4: 25 Plaguebearers (175), Plagueridden (0), plague sword x 25 (0) – [175pts]
FA1: 7 Plague drones ( 238) , Plaguebringer (0), Prehensile proboscis x 7 (0), plague sword x 7 (0), death head x 7 (0) – [238pts]
Outrider detachment
Thousand sons [Points 576] +1CP
HQ3: Demon Prince of Tzeentch with wings [WARLORD] (170), pair of malefic talons (10), Relic (Helm of Third Eye) – [180pts]
Elite1: Tzaangor Shaman (82), Disk of Tzeetch (0), Force stave (8) – [90]
FA2: 6 Tzaangor Enlightened (90), Fatecaster great bow x 6(12) - 102
FA3: 6 Tzaangor Enlightened (90), Fatecaster great bow x 6(12) - 102
FA4: 6 Tzaangor Enlightened (90), Fatecaster great bow x 6(12) - 102
Super heavy auxiliary detachment
Thousand sons [points 445]
LOW1: Magnus the Red (445), Blade of Magnus [445]
I think it's good idea to submit a list and to make sure it's legal but to get penalized for making a small mistake before the event itself simply isnt fair.
Ordana wrote: If you don't specify formatting you get the worst readable gak you have ever seen.
This, if you ever look at the stuff that ends up on best coast pairing half the time its a hand scrawled note thats been in a sweaty pocket all day with no items or weapons listed. If all the items are listed the same on everyones sheet anyone will be able to find it when reviewing, speeding up the process that much quicker during gameplay.
(I know, I know, it’s a different story when you’re packing people in a sardine tin and so on, but the sheer audacity to call 21degC ‘a hot day’...)
Anyway, this all just reeks of poor organisation by people who bit off way more than they could chew. If you want an example of doing it right, look to Objective Secured - they know their capabilities and their limits, they grow them continuously which lets them have bigger and bigger events, but they never go beyond what they can handle. Their events are always at the highest standard, with proper terrain on every table, appropriate access to amenities for the number of people involved and running smoothly on the day. Their last event capped 120 people, a third of the London GT, but that involved turning people away once they hit the limit of their resources. They didn’t let hubris spoil their reputation or peoples’ experience of the day.
ServiceGames wrote: Seems the AoS, 30K, Shadespire, and Necromunda tables all looked pretty good terrain-wise, but it was also stated that it could have been because people might have brought their own terrain for those games/events.
Speaking as the Inquisitor TO for the weekend, I was offered terrain support* (and I have to assume that other TOs were as well) - I ultimately declined it, as the final ticket sales worked out at a level where the terrain requirements were a level I could feasibly provide/transport myself, even given the relatively dense terrain that Inquisitor favours; being able to know and control exactly what I was working with made writing the plot-line and scenarios for the event much easier.
This, for example, was one of the tables we played on during the weekend. While I still plan to improve the set with doors and extra details it is, I would like to hope, aesthetically acceptable terrain:
A lot of people just seem to be lumping all the terrain at the London GT together, despite the fact that multiple sub-events were involved.
* I did see the terrain we were offered, and it was perfectly reasonable. However, the issue with using it for the main 40K event was that there just wasn't enough for that many tables to all have matching layouts.
And that terrain table is beautifull. And about what I like in 40k!
As for main event I don't like their insistense on matching layouts. For me part of fun in tournaments is always seeing what table I end up playing each round. It creates nice story on it's own for the tournament and makes game more unique and interesting when you are playing in different type of terrains like GW intended.
As for main event I don't like their insistense on matching layouts. For me part of fun in tournaments is always seeing what table I end up playing each round. It creates nice story on it's own for the tournament and makes game more unique and interesting when you are playing in different type of terrains like GW intended.
I wouldn't mind different tables, as long as they were all symmetrical. Not as if you could walk around those tables easily for deployment. Easier to go under them by the looks of it.
As for main event I don't like their insistense on matching layouts. For me part of fun in tournaments is always seeing what table I end up playing each round. It creates nice story on it's own for the tournament and makes game more unique and interesting when you are playing in different type of terrains like GW intended.
I wouldn't mind different tables, as long as they were all symmetrical. Not as if you could walk around those tables easily for deployment. Easier to go under them by the looks of it.
I don't want that. As said for me part of fun are different tables. Thank god finland tournaments aren't infectea by the cancer perfectly identical symmetric tables.
And whilst I concur wallet voting really only helps the individual get over being taken for a mug feeling as like has been said there is always someone else naively functioning under the assumption gamers wont abuse other gamers trust, but thousand cuts and that (UK Gencon being a pertinent example)
This terrain is shockingly bad.
I had planned to attend the next LGT. But I think that I will not.
This terrain is shockingly bad.
I had planned to attend the next LGT. But I think that I will not.
In all honesty I've only seen terrain that bad on someone's personal table when they're getting started and learning the game mechanics with a sibling, roommate, friend, or something like that. If this terrain were even in a small FLGS, I would turn around and walk out. At a tournament this big? It's a joke. Someone wasn't prepared, or something went horribly wrong with the budget somewhere.
I think the worst thing was 'no outside food and drink'. Dude, it's allergy season right now and I'm constantly munching antihistamines and I have to carry around water- I'll be damned if they took my water jug from me there.
Ordana wrote: Im 99.9% sure the no food or drink is a venue directive and not up to the TO's.
Yeah, and that's where the issue lies. I've co-hosted and hosted events at various locations. One of the first things I ask is their food and drink policy. If they don't allow it (which is kinda rare for where I've been), then I ask why. I've never seen a place that doesn't allow water. That's just all kinds of potential problems waiting to happen. It's a safety hazard, if you ask me. Now, if they are selling water I expect it to be reasonably priced (and apparently at the LGT it wasn't).
The water thing is understandable for a London venue as London has seen a lot of acid attacks this year, why I don't know but I can understand venues being cautious as it would be hard to tell them appart without checking every bottle.
Ice_can wrote: The water thing is understandable for a London venue as London has seen a lot of acid attacks this year, why I don't know but I can understand venues being cautious as it would be hard to tell them appart without checking every bottle.
This terrain is shockingly bad.
I had planned to attend the next LGT. But I think that I will not.
In all honesty I've only seen terrain that bad on someone's personal table when they're getting started and learning the game mechanics with a sibling, roommate, friend, or something like that. If this terrain were even in a small FLGS, I would turn around and walk out. At a tournament this big? It's a joke. Someone wasn't prepared, or something went horribly wrong with the budget somewhere.
I think the worst thing was 'no outside food and drink'. Dude, it's allergy season right now and I'm constantly munching antihistamines and I have to carry around water- I'll be damned if they took my water jug from me there.
Well that is what you get when you start working on hundreds of tables worth of terrain 11 days before event...
Ordana wrote: Im 99.9% sure the no food or drink is a venue directive and not up to the TO's.
Yeah, and that's where the issue lies. I've co-hosted and hosted events at various locations. One of the first things I ask is their food and drink policy. If they don't allow it (which is kinda rare for where I've been), then I ask why. I've never seen a place that doesn't allow water. That's just all kinds of potential problems waiting to happen. It's a safety hazard, if you ask me. Now, if they are selling water I expect it to be reasonably priced (and apparently at the LGT it wasn't).
Well to be fair seems issue was more of communication. There WAS free water available. You just couldn\t bring your own but had to use the one provided there.
Well that is what you get when you start working on hundreds of tables worth of terrain 11 days before event...
...how they thought THAT would work out...
Like a chili fart in khakis. That's how it worked out.
I understand the need for 'LOS blocking terrain' and this was more about tactical gameplay than 'flair on the table'. But it's kind of silly to expect players to have fully-painted armies and then throw an unpainted brick of styrofoam on the table and say 'have at it lads'.
Yeah double standard there was pretty big...If you don't want to invest on visual side of terrain why should visual side of models matter? If you look at it non-visual action whether models are painted or not is irrelevant. IF you look at it as visual action then terrain needs to be included as well and have at least some standard.
tneva82 wrote: Yeah double standard there was pretty big...If you don't want to invest on visual side of terrain why should visual side of models matter? If you look at it non-visual action whether models are painted or not is irrelevant. IF you look at it as visual action then terrain needs to be included as well and have at least some standard.
I understand the fact that this is a relatively new tournament. But maybe the whole 'London' idea was the problem. I'm not familiar with the UK, but aren't there better places?
Isn't there a nice place with a large pavilion area- perhaps a recreational camp area?
New tournament with third time...And still 11 days left when they started to build on it. And if you leave it that late maybe swallow your pride and use the terrain you have been donated rather than left it unused...
And if this wasn't london people would have been where's the london tournament.
No problem was with organizers who wanted record breaking player amount focusing on quantity over quality.
tneva82 wrote: Yeah double standard there was pretty big...If you don't want to invest on visual side of terrain why should visual side of models matter? If you look at it non-visual action whether models are painted or not is irrelevant. IF you look at it as visual action then terrain needs to be included as well and have at least some standard.
I understand the fact that this is a relatively new tournament. But maybe the whole 'London' idea was the problem. I'm not familiar with the UK, but aren't there better places?
Isn't there a nice place with a large pavilion area- perhaps a recreational camp area?
You don't really want to do it outside, in any case.
I personally don't see the appeal with London, but it is one of the easiest places for international competitors to reach. Even if it's expensive.
Personally, I'd have advocated for the NEC in Birmingham, or somewhere closer to Nottingham, the home of Warhammer.
There’s nothing stopping anyone running a tournament in either of those cities - or Manchester, Durham, Mewcastle, Truro..., but the organisers are based in London, so that seems like a reasonable place for them to hold their event.
Detailed list submission format and point deductions
Could you elaborate on these two? I'm especially curious on why the latter is bad.
The FAQ had only been posted a few weeks prior to the deadline and a lot of people suffer from dyslexia. Making a mistake before the event itself shouldn't ruin your tournament score.
Basic services (water/food) were overpriced.
The open list submission was an attempt to deal with a serial problem of tournaments - players with illegal lists. Making a mistake with you list that violates the rules should be a flat auto-lose for all your games at the very least IMO. Its not like anybody but yourself is applying time pressure to your list building - there were weeks after the FAQ dropped to get it sorted and thorough checking really should not require more than an hour. The one scandal not to come out of LGT was illegal lists on the top tables so while it might have seemed inconvenient to you it did apparently do its job. I know I went onto those lists and queried something ambiguous/possibly wrong and the player submitting it fixed the issue; the open list submission does only work if the community join in and help.
As for overpriced; it is London. London is overpriced as is almost everything in it. Having the tournament in London is part of the TO's vision for the event for better and for worse.
happy_inquisitor wrote: As for overpriced; it is London. London is overpriced as is almost everything in it. Having the tournament in London is part of the TO's vision for the event for better and for worse.
Yeah, I'm not quite sure what they expected at a major event in a major metropolitan city. Try getting a hot dog or nachos and a beer at a MLB game. Beer and snacks are cheaper on airlines most of the time. OP even says 'free food' and I'm not sure how that is supposed to work. If you don't want to pay their prices, then bring a lunch cooler with some sandwiches and keep it in the trunk of your car- go out and eat when you're hungry on a break. This is... pretty basic stuff.
Also I'm not sure what 'too capitalistic' means. I'm pretty sure the event was intended to generate revenue. That's how they support future events. If you want free gaming, then build a table at your house. Even the average FLGS in the US expects people using the tables to buy something from the store.
AndrewGPaul wrote: There’s nothing stopping anyone running a tournament in either of those cities - or Manchester, Durham, Mewcastle, Truro..., but the organisers are based in London, so that seems like a reasonable place for them to hold their event.
After three years of failure - with common complaints each year - they forfeit that right. Or they should, at least.
Stop focusing on bigger, start concentrating on better...
AndrewGPaul wrote: There’s nothing stopping anyone running a tournament in either of those cities - or Manchester, Durham, Mewcastle, Truro..., but the organisers are based in London, so that seems like a reasonable place for them to hold their event.
After three years of failure - with common complaints each year - they forfeit that right. Or they should, at least.
Stop focusing on bigger, start concentrating on better...
I don't see what the connection is between the quote and your post.
They should focus on getting quality not maximising numbers. However there is no reason not to try and hold an event in London. They are starved of tournaments and there are a lot of people.
yeah location isn't problem. Because there is tournament doesn't mean there can't be tournament in manchester. If there are players to play and organizers to organize there's room for both. Is UK really so crowded with tournaments there literally is no room for more than 1 even on different locations?
If there was no london GT people would be asking where's big london tournament.
No problem isn't there's tournament in london. problem is organizers are more interested on quantity over quality and now rather than say in 3 years. Let tournament grow naturally.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: I understand the fact that this is a relatively new tournament. But maybe the whole 'London' idea was the problem. I'm not familiar with the UK, but aren't there better places?
Isn't there a nice place with a large pavilion area- perhaps a recreational camp area?
Generally, anywhere outside London will be cheaper and easier to hire space. However, it will also require you to either train there or drive there, which can limit attendance. Because of the expense of a major world city like London, there are REALLY few events in London overall (like having events in NYC I guess). I've lived in London for 20 years, but every tournament I've ever been to outside small, single-club events has been in a different city. However, if you can make it work, the London has a huge amount of players who can all easily get around due to public transport, transport links from almost everywhere else in the UK and the most flexible international options. It's definitely a good thing to HAVE a big event in London, it's just that finding affordable space to hold it is really difficult.
Regarding prices for food and drink, a lot fo the comments on here are pretty ridiculous. Big event spaces, hotels and conference centres tend to hike up prices and not let you bring outside food and drink in. That's pretty standard in any corporate event venue in the UK. The prices are high, but again, pretty standard for any big city. You'd pay the same for beer and hotdogs if you were in Excel centre for Salute, or MEN Arena / O2 / SECC for a concert.
The real problem here is that, for the £50 entry fee, you'd expect a premium event, and what we actually got was a really badly organised and 'cheap-feeling' event in a prestigious but completely unsuitable space.
AndrewGPaul wrote: There’s nothing stopping anyone running a tournament in either of those cities - or Manchester, Durham, Mewcastle, Truro..., but the organisers are based in London, so that seems like a reasonable place for them to hold their event.
After three years of failure - with common complaints each year - they forfeit that right. Or they should, at least.
Stop focusing on bigger, start concentrating on better...
I don't see what the connection is between the quote and your post.
They should focus on getting quality not maximising numbers. However there is no reason not to try and hold an event in London. They are starved of tournaments and there are a lot of people.
...I have no idea why I quoted that post either. I could've sworn when I was posting I was quoting someone saying something about giving them another chance to improve.
So what we need is abunch of us Londoners to get together and start another LONDON GT.
The problem with organising an event of this scale anywhere in London(probably anywhere in UK) is cost. We would have to stump up a huge amount of cash to pay for the venue up front and hope to make this money back on attendance fees. After listening to the organiser on the allies of convenience podcast I can appreciate some of the problems that they faced particularly in funding this event as he stated that both of his previous events went over budget and initiated a small loss. To be able to eat those losses and stump up for the Olympic stadium and gamble on recouping this money means deep pockets.
I know people who even organise and they reckon the olympic stadium would have been between £8-10k per day.
Edit: obviously they would have made the money in advanced ticket sales before the event happened.
Ah it's a big old world isn't it.
show. Did anything go right? Did anyone have fun? Was there anything that made it worth it?
